IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-01-27
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10:35:40 <peter1138> What do I do with three bottles of Prosecco?
10:38:33 <LordAro> are they multiplying?
11:05:02 <_dp_> why is graphics rendering time increasing on fast forward?
11:09:58 <_dp_> nvm, just more updates per frame it seems
11:30:57 <peter1138> LordAro, I put the new one I got in the "wine" rack and... found another two already there.
11:31:12 <peter1138> Wine in quotes, because there's no real wine in it.
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13:32:32 <Timberwolf> peter1138: Advocaat, twist of lime juice, they make a nice variant on a snowball.
13:33:07 <Timberwolf> Or Aperol and soda, which is nice for a weekend afternoon.
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17:06:42 <LordAro> curious, i had an exciting compiler error with gcc9 - lots of template errors from network_command.cpp - but it went away after a clean & rebuild
17:15:53 <LordAro> also some interesting warnings about enums
17:16:11 <LordAro> f < FOO_BEGIN || f > FOO_END sort of thing
17:20:13 <LordAro> oh, this is gcc8 as well
17:20:47 <frosch123> yes, gcc8 is not enough anymore
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17:36:32 <frosch123> >50% packages migrated now :)
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17:51:16 <TrueBrain> It was a biggy today frosch123 :) 85 .. not bad :D
17:54:00 <frosch123> yes, the author with the most sets
17:54:36 <frosch123> the next unmigrated authors have 37, 28, 28, 26, 23, 20 sets
17:54:47 <frosch123> but have not heard about them in years
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19:55:26 <supermop_work> hmm i wonder what happened at home
20:10:00 <TrueBrain> smart move frosch123 ; didn't think of that :D
20:10:45 <frosch123> well, i assumed it was a translator, kind of surprised it's some external unknown
20:11:18 <frosch123> personally i think it's not worth it. noone bothered doing an austrian translation, and hk is even smaller
20:11:46 <TrueBrain> but we can just hire another translator, can't we?
20:12:03 <frosch123> though it's even more weird there is yet another iso code for macau
20:12:21 <frosch123> like 3 different language for 3 small areas, and a single one for 1 billion country?
20:13:49 <TrueBrain> what can I say .... the Netherlands is very small and already has 2 (and at least 1 wannabe :P)
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20:16:54 <frosch123> do you mean translators or languages?
20:17:04 <frosch123> fy_NL has currently no translator
20:17:46 <TrueBrain> I wasn't talked about OpenTTD
20:20:02 <TrueBrain> not sure how capable you are
20:20:14 <andythenorth> I can hit the keys on my keyboard
20:20:30 <TrueBrain> we are proud parents!
20:20:52 <TrueBrain> it is cute they says "SDL"
20:21:07 <TrueBrain> like ... yeah ... that is a software renderer by default, well done :D
20:21:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: what do you want to answer? "everything you suggest is already done. you probably heard some myths about old people like eddi who repeat the same stuff from 10 years ago"?
20:22:08 <TrueBrain> yeah, that reply is a bit weird :P
20:22:16 <TrueBrain> ugh, I stop typing now
20:25:48 <andythenorth> I was just going to reply with "Havent got time to get into the code yet," <- try this :)
20:34:32 <supermop_work> frosch123: there are more than one language on mainlaind, just not with much official use?
20:35:24 <frosch123> my understanding was, there are many spoken languages, but only one written one
20:36:45 <supermop_work> well its like the country has a standardized orthography based on simplified characters, and Cantonese, Shanghaiese and Mandarin for example all use that
20:36:58 <supermop_work> but there are other minority languages as well
20:37:21 <supermop_work> i guess maybe they would be different enough to not get zh_ tho
20:38:42 <supermop_work> "The old Bai script used modified Chinese characters, but its use was limited.[45] A new script based on the Latin alphabet was designed in 1958, based on the speech of the urban centre of Xiaguan, even though it was not a typical Southern dialect."
20:39:04 <supermop_work> probably not a huge need to translate the game for that
20:40:22 <supermop_work> frosch123: ^that certainly has more users than Austrian German
20:42:58 <supermop_work> somehow my father-in-law manages to keep his Fujianese, Cantonese, and Mandarin all straight in his head in addition to English
20:44:15 <supermop_work> as an american i have accidentally said swedish words when trying to speak japanese in the past
20:44:36 <supermop_work> as we are dumb and all 'foreign language' goes into one big bucket in our heads
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20:45:46 <frosch123> do you use the terms "Traditional English (en_UK)" and "Simplified English (en_US)"? :)
20:46:44 <supermop_work> frosch123: Traditional English and "needlessly less logical English(en_US)"
20:47:03 <wiscii> language and early brain development (years 0-5) go hand in hand for most
20:47:05 <supermop_work> simplified would imply a rational improvement
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20:49:26 <TrueBrain> Simplified English .. I got to remember that
20:51:11 <frosch123> the other funny language is portuguese
20:51:33 <frosch123> the number of speakers drowns the population of the place the language is named after
20:55:28 <supermop_work> i guess if all the Brazilians et al got together they could drown all the Portuguese
20:59:21 <wiscii> English, Portuguese and Spanish (and a few Camadian French)
21:00:18 <frosch123> i would think there are more european french than canadian french
21:01:45 <wiscii> yes, of course .. thinking of other languages where people live outside the country of origin
21:02:06 <frosch123> that's the case for almost every language
21:02:29 <wiscii> the largest population of greeks outside of Greece is in Australia but they probably don't speak ancient greek ;-)
21:03:22 <supermop_work> more Poles in Chicago than in warsaw
21:03:27 <frosch123> nation states are a pretty new thing, historically languages transitioned smoothly. hard language borders are a development of displacement and strong nation states
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21:25:21 <Rubidium> might the HK TW thing not also be something quite political. HK is now, effectively People's Republic of China (PRC) whereas Taiwan considers itself the Republic of China (ROC). They both basically claim the same land with all the "fun" that entails...
21:26:18 <frosch123> then they wouldn't ask for a split?
21:26:24 <LordAro> the same thought occurred to me
21:26:59 <frosch123> anyway, the translators shall decide :) i'll prefer their opinion about someone making a PR
21:29:04 <frosch123> for now the TW translation is still somewhat not up-to-date, so there are certainly no edit wars
21:29:22 <frosch123> like there were when es_MX was split from es_ES
21:29:40 <frosch123> haha, almost forgot that
21:30:12 <frosch123> i think the es_ES translators asked to get the es_MX guy get banned for adding spelling mistakes
21:30:34 <andythenorth> can we disable default objects?
21:30:39 <andythenorth> transmitter, lighthouse
21:30:46 <supermop_work> Rubidium: the language is quite different
21:30:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: pretty sure you can
21:31:03 <Rubidium> well... it also wants to rename the existing language so it's more a "local" dialect
21:31:39 <supermop_work> if you were a native speaker of tawainese Hokkien, you aren't automatically able to speak HK cantonese
21:33:04 <Rubidium> supermop_work: I wonder whether that's due to political conflict. Canadian French is also quite different from European French, to the point where the stop signs in France say "Stop" and in Quebec "Arret". That "Arret" seems to me to spite the English speaking part of Canada
21:33:22 <supermop_work> Rubidium its not a ROC thing
21:33:44 <andythenorth> can't see an object method like disable_item for vehicles
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21:33:47 <supermop_work> Hokkien has been very different from Cantonese for hundreds of years,
21:33:56 <supermop_work> and there are Hokkien speakers in PRC too
21:34:03 * andythenorth can't remember how to disable vehicles in nfo either :P
21:35:27 <LordAro> a neat extension to the lang files would be "use this base language, unless overridden"
21:35:43 <supermop_work> where I live in Manhattan Chinatown, there are language classes for low income Fujianese/Hokkien speakers to learn Mandarin for more economic opprotunity
21:35:48 <LordAro> would help a lot with the completeness of the languages that are just slightly different
21:36:08 <supermop_work> the phonology sounds very very different
21:38:30 <supermop_work> its not mutually intelligible. The character set is mostly the same, but idiomatically TW HK and CN might use different specific words in certain contexts
21:38:31 <frosch123> LordAro: you would need that per string, not per language
21:38:45 <frosch123> it's pretty useless to give translators a list of 3k untranslated strings
21:38:54 <frosch123> if they can't tag them as "not to translate"
21:39:06 <supermop_work> so they might use different characters even if both are using the simplified character set
21:39:12 <LordAro> frosch123: that's what i mean
21:39:42 <frosch123> i compared en_AU with the other two en once
21:40:03 <frosch123> most differences were in toyland
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21:40:15 <frosch123> candyfloss, cotten candy, fairyfloss
21:41:24 <supermop_work> candy and toy words are probably the biggest difference among anglophonic peoples
21:47:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: i cannot find a method either, i thought ogfx+landscape did something, but maybe it was just a basesprite replacement
21:52:37 <nielsm> also, frankly, saying "OpenGL" in specific is very much ignoring the huge chunk of computers capable of running OTTD today that would no longer if OpenGL was a requirement
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21:56:14 <nielsm> <@Rubidium> might the HK TW thing not also be something quite political <-- I considered that when I saw the PR, but after reading up on it, Taiwan is the name of the island, so it's plain only a reference to the land mass in which that dialect is customarily used
22:00:14 <supermop_work> nielsm: that family of dialects are also used in Malaysia, Singapore, communities in Vietnam and on the mainland in Xiamen
22:01:34 <peter1138> Oh dear, ummed and ahhed and missed next day delivery option...
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22:06:56 <nielsm> supermop_work and it's a minority language (either de facto or by decree) in all those places. when labeling a language choice you'd choose a name that's generally recognizable.
22:08:15 <nielsm> it makes sense to use a label identifying the biggest place where it's a majority language
22:08:43 <supermop_work> i'm not sure its quite minority language in Xiamen or most of Taiwan? mostly just laying out that Hokkien being different than Mandarin and Cantonese is not really part of PRC/ROC conflict
22:09:28 <nielsm> on Taiwan it's the majority language, right?
22:10:13 <nielsm> and in Xiamen it's a minority language by decree from the government in beijing, even if it might not be in practice
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22:21:54 <supermop_work> i am not sure what the exact legal status in Xiamen is,
22:22:20 <supermop_work> most immigrants from Fujian province in New York speak little if any Mandarin though
22:23:26 <nielsm> but my point is still, the label used should be easily recognizable and I'd say "Taiwan" is the best candidate for that
22:23:41 <supermop_work> sunset park neighborhood and lesser extent south eastern quarter of Manhattan Chinatown are heavily Fujianese dialect speaking
22:24:08 <supermop_work> i agree that Taiwan the island is most representative for the Min/Hokkien family of languages
22:24:41 <nielsm> "Chinese (Taiwan, Xiamen, Malaysia, Singapore, Phillipines, New York)"
22:24:49 <nielsm> would not be a great label for a GUI
22:24:59 <supermop_work> nielsm: Brooklyn, not Queens, New York
22:25:31 <supermop_work> traditionally its Cantonese in Manhattan, Mandarin in Queens, and Fujianese in South Brooklyn
22:26:41 <supermop_work> maps to 1800s-1910s, 1960s-70s, and 1990s-2000s periods of immigration
22:28:17 <supermop_work> i think the most contriversial part of zh_TW being Hokkien tho is, it kind of erases the Mainland immigrant and Aboriginal populations of Taiwan?
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22:31:43 <supermop_work> that's where it gets into political territory that i don't feel comfortable to make an argument on
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22:57:15 <Gustavo6046> industrial trams need more recognition among 2cc newgrfs
22:57:39 <Gustavo6046> also a bunch of vehicles seem to stand out from the background of 2cc vehicles e.g. in the Buy a Vehicle menu, because they're stylized differently
22:57:47 <Gustavo6046> there ought to be a way to programatically "2cc-ify" a vehicle
22:59:44 <Gustavo6046> nielsm, "Chinese (New York)" sounds funny, then again I'm not an American
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23:02:06 <Gustavo6046> anyway another issue with adding vehicles from multiple newgrfs is that it's nigh impossible for their values to be balanced
23:02:15 <Gustavo6046> sometimes a vehicle will be better simply because it's from a different newgrf
23:02:31 <Gustavo6046> I feel like it wouldn't be too difficult to add some code to automatically adjust vehicles under such discrepancy, thuogh
23:05:32 <Gustavo6046> how come there are so many North Korea themed NewGRFs? that's amusing :p
23:06:02 <nielsm> Gustavo6046: you can basically find dialects anywhere there's a community of language speakers partially isolated, you could pretty much make any "Language (Geographic location)" combination you wanted and still not be sufficiently specific for some cases
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23:11:46 <Gustavo6046> is the difference between heightmaps and scenarios that scenarios have predefined cities (and industries)?
23:12:19 <Gustavo6046> can a scenario be used as a heightmap?
23:20:13 <LordAro> by niels' defibition, you could have about 20 English variants from England alone, without even trying
23:20:46 <LordAro> writing systems are usually more or less the same though
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23:25:06 <Gustavo6046> LordAro, like the northern ones?
23:25:19 <Gustavo6046> I wonder what Llanfairese is
23:40:11 <Gustavo6046> or would be called, anyway
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