IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-11-23
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11:29:00 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on issue #9713: [FIX] Unwanted feature - Company passwords are not saved in the savegames. https://git.io/J1NUn
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12:59:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] elcosomalo1 commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
13:10:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] elcosomalo1 commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
13:18:43 <Timberwolf> They tried to solve it by moving small pieces of printed paper around, which was odd as by and large it was not the pieces of paper which were unhappy.
13:18:53 <Timberwolf> (I have probably mangled that quote beyond all recognition)
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15:39:29 <peter1138> VS Code going mad...
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16:39:55 <TrueBrain> Stop finding issues :p :p
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17:14:29 <FLHerne> Hey, these are real issues, not James issues
17:19:00 <frosch123> #9706? maybe andy found a way to implement a fork bomb with firs
17:35:55 <TrueBrain> lol, would be awesome :P
17:38:11 <glx> the weird part is the "dozens of OpenTTD processes"
17:38:23 <LordAro> that does feel like a broken restart script
17:38:37 <LordAro> completely unusable diagnostically, anyway
17:39:38 <frosch123> LordAro: not related, but didn't you have performance problems with ottd on windows?
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17:41:03 <frosch123> someone at work also recently discovered that, because some tests suddenly ran 50% slower on the CI machines :p
17:41:38 <TrueBrain> okay, I did not expect that to exist
17:41:45 <frosch123> exactly, noone does :p
17:41:54 <frosch123> it's just things you have to know about windows
17:42:10 <TrueBrain> well, I rather not, but here we are :)
17:42:11 <frosch123> automatic switching to "hide bugs"
17:43:46 <LordAro> frosch123: not so much "performance problems" as "debug mingw builds are slow"
17:43:55 <glx> ah it's enabled but the list is empty
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17:44:59 <frosch123> so ottd does not crash too often :)
17:45:03 <glx> oh msvc debug builds are also slow, more than 5 minutes to load the savegame with broken vehicle
17:45:30 <glx> when it crashes it's already in the debugger
17:49:53 <LordAro> i checked our build servers at work, apparently not affected by it
17:51:49 <LordAro> neither are several of the developer machines
17:53:10 <andythenorth> frosch123 a fork bomb more likely in Horse? :P
17:53:23 <andythenorth> I see passwords make people angry today
17:55:27 <andythenorth> I recently saw an openttd running locally with 4GB RAM allocated
17:55:39 <andythenorth> usually it's 400MB-500MB for the map sizes I play
17:55:53 <andythenorth> I couldn't get a repro, and it went back to 500MB after restart of openttd
17:56:35 * andythenorth lols @ current RAM usage locally
17:56:35 <glx> possible if AI have a high memory limit
17:56:58 <glx> or if there are many AIs running
17:57:03 <andythenorth> top users: photoshop (expected), Firefox (inevitable), Chrome (lol), and then the antivirus tool
17:59:18 <glx> top 1 for me is windows with the standby memory
17:59:42 <andythenorth> anyway, passwords. Forgive me, I only used to make browser games for a living with remote high score tables and stuff....
17:59:53 <andythenorth> I can save the savegame from a multiplayer game locally?
18:00:01 * andythenorth never plays much MP
18:00:04 <glx> so I have less than 100MB free (of 16GB)
18:01:03 <glx> but more than 7GB available, because standby memory should be reclaimed if needed
18:01:11 <andythenorth> yeah ok I can join a 12.0 MP game, then do 'save game'
18:01:25 <andythenorth> so it strikes me that storing passwords in the savegame might be quite clown shoes
18:01:29 <frosch123> client and server savegames are different
18:01:45 <glx> client doesn't have passwords anyway
18:01:57 <frosch123> "server save to disk" and "serve save for client join" are also different
18:02:12 <andythenorth> so we could just encrypt the passwords in the save and done?
18:02:21 <frosch123> server stores gs data, clients do not
18:02:25 <andythenorth> assuming that the server owner sets a key / salt?
18:02:38 <frosch123> savegames for joining contain orderbackup, savegame on disk do not
18:03:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: that works as long as the server guy does not upload the savegames to some coop archive
18:03:27 <frosch123> that's why people always come up with "store in file next to savegame"
18:03:41 <glx> and doesn't share config file
18:03:43 <frosch123> foo.sav, foo.sav.secrets
18:04:03 <frosch123> glx: config file is fixed now, isn't it? tb added secrets.cfg
18:04:46 <andythenorth> yeah that's what I was trying to understand
18:04:50 <glx> but most multi server still use a global cfg per server, because -c IIRC
18:04:58 <andythenorth> when we made Flash games we had to do it on the basis that there IS no security
18:05:46 <andythenorth> you can obscure things a lot, but there's no way to verify the identity of anything coming from client side
18:05:49 <andythenorth> because obvious reasons
18:06:05 <andythenorth> savegames seem same, once its in public, its untrusted
18:08:01 <andythenorth> save-and-return might have been a better mechanic than passwords
18:08:14 <andythenorth> it's where a high-entropy access code is issued to each user
18:08:28 <andythenorth> usually via email or 'copy this to your password manager'
18:08:53 * andythenorth knows more about compliance than security :P
18:10:37 <while> <andythenorth> couldn't you do something like with ethereum to verify that what comes from the client is at least "of a minimum quality"?
18:11:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
18:12:06 <andythenorth> while we used to do stuff in flash games 20 years ago that would avoid the most basic 'hit the remote API with false high score values'
18:12:41 <andythenorth> like issuing each client a unique UUID / OTP secret for each session, then doing some obfuscated maths with it, and verifying the result
18:13:08 <andythenorth> also MD5-ing anything sent to increase complexity of just hitting a remote url above 'non-programmer' level
18:13:29 <andythenorth> also, but this is unrelated, looking at patterns of use
18:13:46 <andythenorth> like a game that takes 30s to play through, but user submitted 10 high scores in 10 seconds
18:14:13 <andythenorth> also for competitions, we moved some of the logic back to the server, away from the client
18:14:52 <frosch123> you ran flash game competitions? :)
18:15:23 <andythenorth> with monetary prizes
18:15:30 <andythenorth> we learnt some things fast
18:17:20 <andythenorth> TL;DR: internets are bad
18:18:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] elcosomalo1 commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
18:19:29 * LordAro readies the banhammer
18:20:05 <frosch123> nah, it's just offtopic
18:20:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] elcosomalo1 commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
18:21:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
18:22:02 <andythenorth> oh I'll delete that ok
18:22:05 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] elcosomalo1 commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
18:22:23 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
18:22:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
18:23:17 <andythenorth> I can't copy the issue to my GH profile
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18:26:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on discussion #8420: Network Improvements (read: no more passwords!) https://git.io/Jny9C
18:28:05 <andythenorth> I've hidden the rest
18:28:15 * andythenorth genuinely interested in the argument though
18:33:16 <while> why can't a single networked application just hash on the client side!!!!!
18:34:05 <LordAro> while: are we supposed to know the context, or..?
18:34:19 <TrueBrain> and I think your ! key is stuck .. bit weird
18:34:22 <TrueBrain> maybe have it looked at
18:34:25 <while> and OpenTTD discusion #8420
18:35:55 <while> like seriously, if hashing and salting was just done on the client side, password breaches happening from a centralized webserver anywhere on the www would be consistently less severe then relying on webmasters who just happen to practice things like plaintext password and rainbowtable-vulnerable non-salted password storage
18:37:29 <LordAro> alas, certain practices were common at a far simpler time
18:38:10 <Rubidium> while: only caveat is that it's using a really weak hash right now
18:38:29 <andythenorth> also what problem is being solved? Client verification? Letting other people join your company? Persisting authed sessions across server restarts?
18:39:27 <LordAro> for the purpose of server restarts, we could probably save passwords in secrets.cfg now, no?
18:39:32 <LordAro> plaintext or otherwise
18:39:40 <LordAro> they shouldn't be saved in savegames
18:40:20 <andythenorth> also afaict TB provided a full plan, in stages
18:40:33 <andythenorth> which is being done, at the speed it is done
18:40:43 <andythenorth> so 'yolo, savegames' is kinda weird
18:44:05 <andythenorth> hmm do server owners use f2b?
19:14:39 <TrueBrain> that article .. you keep bouncing between: is he insulting us? is he insulting others? :D
19:16:19 <frosch123> that's just how they talk to their mom normally
19:21:36 <nielsm> angry that anyone other than him appear to be able to make good things
19:21:52 <nielsm> and simultaneously angry that everyone else are making bad things
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19:26:24 <andythenorth> it's just a performance art thing
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20:12:04 <dP> hm, is autorenew not supposed to send vehicles to the depot?
20:12:23 <dP> trying to figure out if it ever did but old openttd versions are crashing :(
20:16:23 <dP> well, I guess it's a but either way as NeedsServicing has a code to check for autorenew but never reaches it
20:20:33 <andythenorth> sometimes it does
20:20:38 <andythenorth> sometimes it doesn't
20:20:47 <andythenorth> one factor seems to be if there is a depot in orders
20:21:01 <andythenorth> but I might be wrong
20:21:56 <dP> if there is a depot it doesn't need to send :p
20:22:48 <andythenorth> seems obvious now you point it out :P
20:33:17 <dP> afaict it never sends them to the depot, it just autorenews if they happen to get there somehow
20:36:23 <dP> funny fact, for all old versions I checked there is always one compilation error and it's always different xD
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21:26:42 <frosch123> iirc it depends on whether breakdowns are enabled
21:26:54 <frosch123> it only autorenews, if it matters
21:27:52 <glx> without breakdowns it doesn't search for depots (maybe there's also a setting for maintenance if breakdowns are off)
21:27:52 <dP> if breakdowns (or rly just servicing) is enabled it will autorenew when servicing
21:29:18 <frosch123> hmm, no, that's a "return true" case
21:29:22 <dP> frosch123, that's just servicing, autorenew is L219 but it doesn't seem to be ever triggering
21:29:53 <dP> because it gets INVALID_ENGINE earlier
21:31:35 <glx> it checks replacement before renew it seems
21:32:49 <frosch123> so, replacement forces to depot even when no servicing is needed, while renew does not
21:33:04 <dP> oh, actually L219 is just for autereplacement "if old"
21:33:17 <dP> renew alone doesn't seem to have any checks
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21:35:15 <frosch123> nah, that does not change anything either :p
21:35:44 <glx> INVALID_ENGINE means replace_when_old will be false anyway
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21:35:53 <frosch123> i guess it has always been like that: no breakdowns & no-servicing -> no renew
21:36:47 <andythenorth> at least we have 'service all' eh :)
21:36:57 <andythenorth> mass yak-shaving
21:37:53 <frosch123> in ttdp you could replace all strings via newgrf, so you could have a "rename servicing to yak-shaving"-newgrf
21:38:15 <dP> frosch123, it's especially weird considering breakdowns and no-service are game settings and renew is a company setting ;)
21:38:37 * andythenorth still hanging out in pypy channel
21:38:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: complaining or just duck coding?
21:38:58 <andythenorth> I wonder if 'this result is weird in GHA for a specific target' is the major projects now talk about :P
21:39:02 <andythenorth> I am keeping very quiet
21:39:33 <andythenorth> when is editable irc happening?
21:39:49 <andythenorth> _even_ google chat is editable
21:40:02 * andythenorth something something protocol doesn't support it
21:40:15 <dP> already happened, called discord :p
21:41:38 <frosch123> andythenorth: did you write a blog?
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21:54:05 <andythenorth> I am curious, maybe we should move all challenging GH discussions to a separate issue :P
21:55:15 <glx> even with integrated bouncer :)
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21:59:55 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am disappointed, noone invested valueable time into continueing that argument
22:00:08 <andythenorth> frosch123 so sad
22:00:19 <andythenorth> I was genuinely interested in debating paradox
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22:00:52 <_aD> is that when one is doxxed, but it's all of their previous addresses and old phone numbers?
22:04:00 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you just requoted him? I expected a counter .. disappointed..
22:04:55 <andythenorth> I thought it was an interesting debate
22:05:04 <andythenorth> obligations of people creating artefacts
22:06:59 <TrueBrain> A debate requires more than one person voicing a point .. so far you only quoted him :p
22:07:17 <TrueBrain> So I reject your definition of debate :p
22:09:38 <andythenorth> I didn't bother copying the comments manually
22:09:47 <andythenorth> GH doesn't make splitting a debate easy :P
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22:14:22 <TrueBrain> But at least I had this debate going for me
22:15:37 <frosch123> how was the debate with 1pw? are we a good boy?
22:16:32 <dP> speaking of artefacts, are PR authors obligated to fix issues they introduced? :p
22:17:12 <frosch123> it's an important metric for the next PR :)
22:18:05 <frosch123> let's call it "review karma" :p
22:18:13 <frosch123> did andy win reddit yet?
22:18:35 <TrueBrain> Just imagine we punish people for making non perfect PRs .. that would be the end of any PR, lol
22:19:39 <TrueBrain> No, reddit won .. Andy signed up. Insane.
22:20:03 <frosch123> oh, i did not understand the game then
22:21:19 <TrueBrain> One of those games that end because.. reasons
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22:24:24 <andythenorth> winning is not playing?
22:24:27 <andythenorth> my karma went down
22:24:31 <andythenorth> I had 5, now I have 3
22:24:41 <andythenorth> I am hoping I get Boy George singing at some point though
22:28:43 <TrueBrain> It's a good song, tnx for sharing
22:29:21 <andythenorth> I assumed reddit is a game where I unlock that video for 100 karma or something
22:29:30 <andythenorth> discord has some game like that with a random thing
22:30:29 <frosch123> ah, did you win discord?
22:30:35 <FLHerne> andythenorth/TrueBrain: for the blog post, I think the complaint is "it's been fifteen years, and no-one's improved on this?!"
22:31:01 <andythenorth> frosch123 I don't know the win criteria for discord, it's quite obscure :)
22:31:10 <andythenorth> possibly we're all winning in it
22:31:15 <FLHerne> I mean, OTTD has a bit, but it's still the same graphics and the same obviously-flawed-in-some-ways basic mechanics
22:31:32 <FLHerne> Locomotion sucked, Train Fever kind of sucked
22:31:43 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: it is just a nice read with an emotional rollercoaster
22:31:48 <frosch123> FLHerne: yes, the blog is from 2010
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22:32:06 <frosch123> there were no cool games in 2010
22:32:09 <FLHerne> Factorio is the first TTD-like game to really be *better* than TTD in my opinion
22:32:39 <TrueBrain> Too bad it wasn't about FreeRCT .. better fits the rollercoaster
22:32:46 <frosch123> well, starcraft2 was new, but factorio and train fever and machinsky and the other ottd clones came way later
22:33:40 <frosch123> hmm, when is 10th birthday of factorio?
22:34:02 <TrueBrain> 10 years after release?
22:34:02 * dP just had a random thought that the way I play it sc2 is more ttd-like than factorio :p
22:34:16 <FLHerne> 2023, 2026 or 2030 depending on how you count it
22:34:26 <frosch123> TrueBrain: first public release, 0.1.0, 2012-12-24
22:34:35 <frosch123> so, christmas, next year
22:34:50 <TrueBrain> Are you buying cake?
22:35:08 <frosch123> we should show up at V's place, unannounced
22:35:28 <TrueBrain> To return the favour
22:35:33 <frosch123> i am more of a cake-baker than a cake-buyer
22:37:14 <TrueBrain> How ever you slice it, it is cake
22:38:06 <frosch123> there was a lot of stuff in 0.1.0 already
22:40:08 <TrueBrain> Worthy of a release, I would guess
22:40:27 <TrueBrain> The puns are rolling tonight
22:45:04 <frosch123> not everything listed on that page happened
22:47:39 <TrueBrain> If I were you, I would write an entitled thread on their forum saying it has been almost 10 years now, they should just have done it already. Your 1 savegame depends on it.
22:47:48 <TrueBrain> I read that is the normal thing to do
22:49:15 <frosch123> not sure whether i can refund my early-access-key for the full retail price
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