IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-09-21
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00:49:01 <MarkQuestion> hello chaps, just popping in for what is probably a fairly common question
00:50:13 <MarkQuestion> I am in the process of updating the old OpenTTD and wonder where I might find in the filesystem where my NewGRF presets are stored so I can migrate them over with minimal pain and suffering and agony
00:50:55 <glx> presets are stored in openttd.cfg IIRC
00:52:01 <MarkQuestion> cool cool. would that get vaporized with an install? I'm cloning it now
00:54:20 <MarkQuestion> don't even answer. it quite clearly wasn't
00:54:32 <MarkQuestion> pip pip cheerio to you. hopefully I will never return!
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09:08:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Limyx826 commented on issue #9295: Music Audio is not normalized/leveled correctly https://git.io/JGvg7
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10:24:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9565: [Bug]: XG MIDI playback is weird with external MIDI output https://git.io/JzloT
10:33:21 <Samu> ah, I rename a vehicle to x, and i get cool lines
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11:10:13 <Samu> from Dahill Buoy #2 to Great Franingpool Central
11:14:22 <Samu> 'set ship_curve90_penalty 100' solves
11:43:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danskidb updated pull request #9511: Feature: Add selected toolbar buttons to MacBook Pro Touch Bar https://git.io/JE318
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12:26:52 <Samu> with path cache disabled, the ship finds its way after 2 or 3 tiles moving while lost
12:27:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9511: Feature: Add selected toolbar buttons to MacBook Pro Touch Bar https://git.io/Jz8On
12:28:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9511: Feature: Add selected toolbar buttons to MacBook Pro Touch Bar https://git.io/Jz8OC
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12:59:16 <glx> the ship is just in an infinite loop around the hangar
12:59:34 <Samu> how do i get the visit count? I dont seem to get it
12:59:50 <glx> latest version of the patch
13:03:20 <Samu> im experimenting with something
13:03:39 <Samu> GetEffectiveWaterClass being SEA gets an added penalty of 100
13:03:39 <glx> pf seems to visit some tiles way too much (like the 1 tile large sea area visited 6 times)
13:04:35 <glx> but that's probably how pf works
13:05:15 <Samu> trying to force the pf to give some sort of priority by visit rivers/canals more often
13:06:33 <glx> way be counter productive if the path doesn't need to follow rivers/canals to reach destination
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13:35:04 <Samu> i see why nodes are visited 3 times, it's because each tile has 3 directions ship can chose from
13:36:42 <Samu> i remember when ships had forbidden 90 degrees setting
13:36:55 <Samu> the trackdir was removed from the pathfinder
13:37:33 <Samu> it actually lowered the number of nodes visited per tile
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14:12:05 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Limyx826 commented on issue #9565: [Bug]: XG MIDI playback is weird with external MIDI output https://git.io/JzloT
14:13:19 <Samu> i found something that can be improved
14:13:57 <glx> I think I found something too, added some debug stuff to check first
14:14:09 <Samu> when leaving a dock, ask the pathfinder if it should reverse
14:14:52 <Samu> sometimes the ship can move forward if it enters the dock by the side, perpendicular to it
14:26:56 <Samu> of course, I am unable to code this
14:28:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danskidb updated pull request #9511: Feature: Add selected toolbar buttons to MacBook Pro Touch Bar https://git.io/JE318
14:29:36 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danskidb updated pull request #9511: Feature: Add selected toolbar buttons to MacBook Pro Touch Bar https://git.io/JE318
14:31:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danskidb updated pull request #9511: Feature: Add selected toolbar buttons to MacBook Pro Touch Bar https://git.io/JE318
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14:58:44 <Samu> what do you think of allowing ships to reverse after leaving docks?
14:58:56 <Samu> ask the pf whether it should reverse or not
15:07:32 <Samu> ship enters the docks perpendicular to it
15:09:26 <Samu> when it leaves it, it goes to Little Bunfingburg Lakeside. but since it does not reverse, it follows the canal towards SE and gets lost
15:10:02 <Samu> i know, but it can be asked if it's better to reverse
15:10:25 <Samu> ship_cmd.cpp has enough code to perform the reverse
15:15:04 <Samu> this situation in the screenshot is the only explanation I have why some of my AI ships move so further out of place than gets them lost
15:15:41 <Samu> they enter some canal route leading to open sea and unable to return back
15:16:30 <TrueBrain> glx: a tile can be visited at most 7 times, so you haven't reached the limit yet with 6 :D
15:17:04 <glx> yeah when you enter a tile it's already 3 visits
15:17:35 <glx> even when 2 of them are unusable
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15:37:26 <glx> btw some tiles are visited more than 7 times :)
16:05:43 <TrueBrain> That is weird, as a node is tile + trackdir .. so I would assume there are only 8 variations per tile?
16:06:11 <glx> maximum seems to be 12 on my test case
16:06:16 <nielsm> trackdir also includes direction
16:06:31 <nielsm> X axis going NE or X axis going SW
16:06:38 <glx> and indeed 12 makes sense, each entry leads to 3 exits
16:07:21 <TrueBrain> So 11 should be max .. otherwise the PF wrapped round on itself
16:07:44 <TrueBrain> Which is a bad sign on its own :D
16:08:55 <glx> the drawpf thing just show what is open, so it's possible a tile is tested from different direction without looping
16:09:52 <glx> open sea, many possible path through any tile
16:10:21 <TrueBrain> Still don't see why a node isn't just a tile
16:10:57 <glx> tile alone can't tell what to test next
16:11:21 <glx> but tile+exitdir should be an improvement
16:11:45 <TrueBrain> Normally with A* you have previous node and current node
16:11:56 <TrueBrain> Which tells you the direction you come from
16:12:37 <TrueBrain> The tile + exitnode PF exists
16:12:43 <TrueBrain> But is disabled by setting
16:14:21 <glx> no, exitdir is used by default for ships
16:15:21 <TrueBrain> Last time I followed the rabbit I found that no longer being the case
16:15:47 <TrueBrain> Pf2 is picked over pf1 if 90 degree penalty is different I believe?
16:17:19 <TrueBrain> So most (all?) games use the trackdir variant
16:18:11 <glx> seems so indeed (I just checked yapf.disable_node_optimization and missed the 45°!=90°)
16:18:54 <TrueBrain> And the templates makes it so hard to understand the code
16:19:18 <TrueBrain> Just writing one from scratch might solve a lot of issues :p
16:19:46 <Samu> are you touching ship curve penalties?
16:21:54 <glx> hehe I just set 90° penalty to 45° penalty and path is found :)
16:22:28 <glx> with max visit being 4 as expected
16:22:45 <Samu> i've been telling that all the time
16:23:28 <TrueBrain> glx: still sounds like it is wrapping back on its own a lot
16:27:25 <Samu> i think im making a PR, or at least an issue
16:27:39 <Samu> another ship is lost issue
16:33:16 <TrueBrain> that sounds very counterproductive
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16:42:11 <glx> the penalty is not an issue (chosen path is cleaner), but the implication on the number of nodes is huge
16:42:40 <TrueBrain> it is just a bit ironic, that this is the most basic of all pathfinders :P
16:42:46 <TrueBrain> rail and road are vastly more complex to implement :D
16:43:28 <glx> yeah but they have less options on each tile
16:43:40 <TrueBrain> on that part I still don't agree :)
16:43:51 <TrueBrain> as long as the estimation isn't overshooting (by a lot), there shouldn't be need for trackdir/exitdir
16:44:35 <TrueBrain> open waters is almost textbook A*, basically
16:45:06 <TrueBrain> as long as you update the tile with the lowest score you found
16:45:11 <TrueBrain> by the time it is picked up from the open list
16:45:18 <TrueBrain> there is no possible other way to get to that tile with a lower score
16:45:24 <TrueBrain> (again, given estimations are not widely off)
16:46:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened issue #9566: [Bug]: Lost ship after leaving station if it docked in a perpendicular manner and doesn't reverse https://git.io/Jz4Ub
16:48:43 <TrueBrain> I tried to modify YAPF to work like that, but I got really lost in the template stuff :P
16:50:18 <Samu> it needs to ProcessOrders first to update destination before feeding the pf
16:53:47 <glx> well the number of visit alreay implied the trackdirs ;)
16:53:51 <nielsm> but basically just showing that "yes it's visiting everything"
16:54:35 <glx> because 3 trackdirs from entry point
16:54:52 <nielsm> and right now the conclusion (to me) is that it needs to stop going into open water tiles from all directions when it's already been there
16:55:25 <TrueBrain> can any of you see a reason it needs ExitDir/TrackDir at all?
16:55:33 <TrueBrain> I mean, take a pencil, and try drawing a situation where that is useful
16:55:35 <nielsm> the "tracks" approach is necessary in limited situations with the lock and the depot
16:55:45 <glx> it needs trackdir to detect 90° turns
16:55:53 <TrueBrain> it just needs to know where it came from
16:55:58 <TrueBrain> the Node doesn't need to include it
16:55:59 <nielsm> but for almost everything else for ships it'd be saner to only consider whole tiles
16:56:04 <TrueBrain> A* works with parent node + current node
16:56:15 <TrueBrain> so 90 degrees you can detect based on that information alone
16:56:37 <TrueBrain> nielsm: in what case would that be needed for locks?
16:56:54 <glx> 90 is the movement of the ship when crossing the tile border
16:58:31 <TrueBrain> glx: so having the parent tile + current is enough to see if it is a 90 degree not?
16:58:43 <nielsm> I'm not sure why it shows those trackdirs on the lock though...
16:58:47 <TrueBrain> nielsm: so that can still be done tile-based, just reject the other options :)
16:59:16 <nielsm> specialcasing entering the few special tiles should work yeah
16:59:17 <glx> no you also need to check parent's parent, and current's next
16:59:44 <TrueBrain> that is a 90 degree over a 2x2?
16:59:51 <glx> to know exactly the behaviour of the ship on the tile crossing
17:00:40 <nielsm> and yeah if I limit the search space by blocking off a ton of open water from the ship, it finds the right path with fewer max nodes
17:00:54 <glx> you need it's heading when it leaves parent, and the new heading when it leaves current
17:00:57 <TrueBrain> glx: yeah, okay, you need 3 tiles of course
17:01:01 <TrueBrain> (not 4 btw, just 3 :P)
17:01:39 <nielsm> basically it's the paradox of choice, "it's open water! you can go anywhere!!" "but that's too much to choose from!"
17:02:10 <glx> well it's easy, except we added cosmetic limitations :)
17:03:24 <TrueBrain> looking at the overlay, what surprises me is that the second tile already is visited 3 times
17:03:29 <glx> to prevent ship to make loops in a 2x2 square when a better looking movement exists with more tiles
17:04:07 <TrueBrain> but TrackDir ofc follows rail-rules
17:04:12 <glx> when you add a new tile, you actually add 3 nodes
17:07:09 <TrueBrain> that sounds like an actual bug :)
17:07:58 <glx> or it just tried to go from the other side
17:09:03 <glx> yeah you had an open path through the double depot
17:11:25 <glx> CanEnterNewTile() or CanExitOldTile() miss some checks
17:13:14 <TrueBrain> you print the open list
17:13:17 <TrueBrain> it stops after 10k on the closed list
17:13:23 <TrueBrain> so the open list might have a solution
17:13:40 <glx> open list is not checked yet :)
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17:13:56 <andythenorth> it's Dependabot!
17:14:00 <andythenorth> telling me about vulns
17:15:44 <TrueBrain> glx: okay, I get the 90 degrees, as you indeed need 3 tiles for that. For some reason I did not consider ships would follow train-layout
17:15:46 <andythenorth> so GG, now I have to figure out what to do with that info
17:15:51 <TrueBrain> I just assumed it would go from center to tile to center of tile
17:16:50 <glx> andythenorth: usually it means please update all your dependencies
17:17:03 <andythenorth> this is my fork of openttd website
17:17:11 <andythenorth> but that has recent updates
17:17:16 <andythenorth> I've rebased master
17:17:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #9567: Feature: Ships may ask pathfinder whether to reverse when leaving docks https://git.io/Jz4qS
17:17:53 <andythenorth> oh do I need to rebase to main?
17:18:24 <andythenorth> hmm that doesn't fix the alerts
17:18:42 * andythenorth daily adventures
17:18:51 <TrueBrain> guess changing how ships move over tiles is not an option?
17:19:02 <andythenorth> give them z height
17:19:11 <andythenorth> probably not helpful andythenorth
17:19:54 <glx> they move from middle of tile border to middle of tile border
17:20:04 <glx> dunno if it's easy to change that
17:20:13 <TrueBrain> if they would go from center to center, it is easier :P
17:20:24 <TrueBrain> I am just afraid of the rant posts :D
17:23:02 <andythenorth> I feel your pain
17:23:09 <andythenorth> can I have a beer?
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17:37:04 <glx> in the lock I would expect a straight one :)
17:38:41 <glx> and a 90° clockwise rotation for the tile next to the one after top of the lock
17:39:48 <glx> may explain the strange ones in you screenshots
17:41:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9565: [Bug]: XG MIDI playback is weird with external MIDI output https://git.io/JzloT
17:43:08 <glx> but if drawing is right, then the issue would be pf not adding the right nodes
18:01:09 <nielsm> glx: I'm not sure what could be causing it to draw some wrong just... the code in my own GetTileEdgeMiddle() that adjusts the point by the DiagDirection must be right because otherwise one of the edges of tiles would never be touched. and if TrackdirToExitdir or ReverseTrackdir were wrong I'm pretty sure something else in the game would have broken years ago
18:03:22 <nielsm> okay actually... nothing else in the code appears to be using TrackdirToExitTrackdir
18:05:25 <nielsm> but the table it uses does seem correct
18:06:50 <nielsm> ah okay nm, it is being used elsewhere, it was just VS not finding those uses via "find all references", but a plain text search found it
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18:50:22 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:50:33 <peter1138> TrueBrain, ideally they can go anywhere within a tile :D
19:18:08 <andythenorth> ships need axle weight
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19:22:04 <michi_cc> And stranded disaster.
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19:37:15 <TrueBrain> New disaster type :D
19:43:37 <Samu> nielsm, are Point .x in horizontal and .y in vertical?
19:44:14 <Samu> different than the tile coordinates x and y?
19:45:11 <nielsm> Point p = RemapCoords(x, y, z); <-- this translates world coordinates (x, y, z) into graphics viewport coordinates
19:46:11 <nielsm> look at the very top of viewport.cpp, there is an explanation of the coordinate systems used
19:46:24 <glx> on first check, entry/exit dir seems correct, so it's the drawing :)
19:51:10 <Samu> also think it's the drawing, i checked entry and exit dir, seems fine
19:54:03 <Samu> case DIAGDIR_NW: x += TILE_SIZE / 2; break;
19:54:03 <Samu> case DIAGDIR_NE: y += TILE_SIZE / 2; break;
19:54:12 <Samu> you have x and y switched
19:57:58 <glx> my try on a paper says the same
20:00:13 <glx> X and Y not being in the usual direction doesn't help to get it right on first try :)
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20:19:36 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #9565: [Bug]: XG MIDI playback is weird with external MIDI output https://git.io/JzloT
20:26:40 <nielsm> that music bug is going to be annoying to trace down, I fear... something about timing of note on/off sequences is my best guess
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20:40:30 <andythenorth> oof river building in main game when? :P
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