IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-06-17
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00:44:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on issue #9363: [UI] Online players window's buttons is not resized when use double/quad interface size https://git.io/JZ5sO
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05:17:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 opened pull request #9377: Cleanup: nullptr and boolean literals instead of NULL, 0 or 1 https://git.io/JnCp9
05:17:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 opened pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnCpH
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07:01:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9377: Cleanup: nullptr and boolean literals instead of NULL, 0 or 1 https://git.io/JnWnG
07:03:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnWn5
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07:50:56 <TrueBrain> and peter1138 , how did the burger sit? :D
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07:54:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9377: Cleanup: nullptr and boolean literals instead of NULL, 0 or 1 https://git.io/JnWgS
07:59:00 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnWa3
08:42:43 <peter1138> Actually there was nothing dubious about it, I just punning with VS Code's new "do trust the developers..."
08:43:39 <peter1138> Managed to slice some bread without checking the slicer's thickness. Ended up with almost melba-toast thickness :p
08:43:46 <peter1138> Ah well, lower carbs I suppose.
08:48:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9379: Change: prevent palette updates during copying to the video driver https://git.io/JnWMo
09:17:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9380: Fix: thread safety issue during exiting the game https://git.io/JnWH8
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09:27:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9379: Change: prevent palette updates during copying to the video driver https://git.io/JnWMo
09:29:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
09:31:01 <TrueBrain> haha, awesome, you can start a DoCommand with _shift_pressed and leave it without it being pressed P
09:31:10 <TrueBrain> what could possibly go wrong :D
09:31:54 <TrueBrain> (answer: in reality? not much)
09:40:45 <Rubidium> desync if done in the reverse order? Not pressing _shift_pressed, but start pressing it during the DoCommand
09:40:59 <TrueBrain> even then it doesn't hurt
09:41:09 <TrueBrain> at worst it can give a weird feeling
09:41:14 <TrueBrain> like: I pressed this button before I pressed shift
09:41:18 <TrueBrain> but it still shows me the cost?!
09:41:26 <TrueBrain> (only happens when the game-loop is very slow, really)
09:41:30 <TrueBrain> going to fix it, don't get me wrong
09:41:42 <TrueBrain> but it is such a non-issue to fix :P
09:52:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9381: Fix: don't propegate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/JnWNl
09:53:30 <TrueBrain> now I have one left, that is just weird ..
09:53:49 <TrueBrain> this->game_thread.get_id()
09:54:05 <TrueBrain> during thread-creating this->game_thread is set
09:54:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
09:54:15 <TrueBrain> in the thread, it issued to check if we are running
09:56:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
10:00:00 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
10:01:53 <peter1138> I guess password _shift_pressed as a command parameter would be the way to do it properly ;p
10:02:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
10:02:02 <peter1138> Passing, not password. WTF.
10:02:31 <TrueBrain> as far as I know, _shift_pressed is only used client-side anyway :)
10:02:45 <peter1138> It is, yes, but globals are bad.
10:04:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9381: Fix: don't propagate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/JnWNl
10:06:45 <peter1138> How do you define how long an authenticated user session should last, policy-wise?
10:07:01 <TrueBrain> there are some best practices for that, depending on your industry
10:07:09 <peter1138> Got a complaint that suggests it should be 2 weeks.
10:07:12 <TrueBrain> depends on the application, etc
10:07:31 <peter1138> Which I'm against but want to justify properly rather than "I hate the idea"
10:07:38 <TrueBrain> if it protects PII, no, 2 weeks is way too long :P
10:07:56 <peter1138> They only consider the "annoyance" of having to login again. :/
10:08:19 <TrueBrain> security and user-experience are never friends :)
10:08:30 <peter1138> I don't block password managers or browsers remembering passwords, so it should be just one click anyway!
10:08:49 <TrueBrain> but it really depends a bit .. OWASP for example mentions this in several places
10:08:57 <TrueBrain> if you do a step-up when users access sensitive information
10:09:05 <TrueBrain> it is not as important to expire sessions quickly
10:09:16 <TrueBrain> this you see with a lot of modern websites .. you are remembered for a long long time
10:09:26 <TrueBrain> but as soon as you access your account settings: LOGIN PLEASE
10:10:49 <TrueBrain> OWASP spend a lot of words on it, maybe it helps you :)
10:11:14 <TrueBrain> I like the "full workday" approach in most cases
10:11:21 <TrueBrain> login in every morning isn't as annoying as people make it out
10:14:06 <peter1138> "Common idle timeouts ranges are 2-5 minutes for high-value applications and 15-30 minutes for low risk applications"
10:14:18 <peter1138> And we're already at 60 minutes.
10:15:20 <TrueBrain> yeah, but what you see often that the session times out, but that you can reauthenticate without entering credentials
10:15:33 <TrueBrain> OAuth providers supply in this, as example
10:15:43 <TrueBrain> but often you want some kind of risk-assessment on that
10:15:48 <TrueBrain> like: did the IP change drasticly?
10:16:02 <TrueBrain> (going from UK to Russia in an hour .. seems unlikely)
10:16:24 <TrueBrain> lot of (expensive) stuff is really needed to make the user-experience nice
10:16:34 <TrueBrain> integration with Azure IAM for example is one way many companies solve it
10:16:41 <TrueBrain> just moving the issue to someone who has solved it :P
10:17:00 <TrueBrain> openttd.org moves it to GitHub
10:19:18 <TrueBrain> but, in the end, it comes down to risk-appetite .. and that requires a CISO that is involved, understands the risk, and can make a call on it :P
10:19:52 <TrueBrain> I have seen the weirdest shit .. from CRM systems that didn't require re-auth .. in like .. ever, with a min-password policy of 6 chars
10:20:21 <TrueBrain> and I have seen systems with very low-risk data having 10 minute idle-relogin with 16 min-password policy :P
10:20:47 <peter1138> It was "easier" when I was doing PCI-DSS stuff, as it was clearly obvious that it MUST be short, etc... Of course, so much other crap...
10:21:06 <TrueBrain> PCI-DSS is a fine example of protecting PII, at the cost of user experience
10:21:10 <TrueBrain> and rightfully so :)
10:21:16 <peter1138> The 2 weeks IS a CRM system, btw.
10:21:38 <TrueBrain> yeah .... so who-ever asked it needs a bit of training :D
10:21:54 <TrueBrain> for a CRM system it is idiotic to think you don't have to authenticate at least once a day
10:22:07 <TrueBrain> your session should be expired by the time you go home, basically :D
10:22:40 <TrueBrain> (as a sad truth, those people are also more likely to be targeted for phishing attacks etc)
10:25:42 <peter1138> My system isn't so much PII, but is a commercial ordering and fulfillment platform, so there's real cost implications if things "go wrong."
10:25:58 <TrueBrain> risk and balances :)
10:26:27 <TrueBrain> but really, the CISO should set out the policy for this, so you don't have to debate this :P
10:26:58 <TrueBrain> such debates between colleagues of different departments never go well :P
10:27:09 <TrueBrain> but, the amount of companies I found with competent CISOs I can still count on both hands
10:27:24 <TrueBrain> cybersecurity is not in a good place :)
10:27:24 <peter1138> I have formulated my response, and it is basically that. Risk assessment and formal policy before we do any changes.
10:27:43 <TrueBrain> I like that the US is pushing this now
10:27:57 <TrueBrain> for all gov-stuff at least :P
10:28:38 <TrueBrain> I do not understand why thread->get_id() isn't atomic or at least thread-safe
10:28:40 <TrueBrain> that is a bit .. odd
10:28:50 <peter1138> I also sniped at the decision for 2 weeks on PII, cos...
10:29:09 <peter1138> PII-related-system, rather.
10:31:09 <peter1138> Be really annoying and enforce 10 minute session timeout AND require 2FA...
10:31:31 <TrueBrain> not having 2FA mandatory in 2021 is already .. well .. yeah ..
10:31:40 <TrueBrain> you won't do good on any security assessment, let me put it that way :P
10:31:53 <peter1138> At least there'd be no bugs, as I could remove everything.
10:32:09 <peter1138> It's still too hard, apparently :(
10:34:08 <peter1138> Also for end-users it's difficult to enforce, because they have no idea what it is still.
10:34:48 <TrueBrain> which, again, highlights the dire state of cyber security in the world :D
10:35:22 <peter1138> We have 2FA enforced on a Cloudflare account and none of my colleagues can access it as they no longer have the 2FA codes. Apparently they "just disappeared"
10:35:59 <peter1138> And they are IT people, not the general public who'd rather not use a computer at all.
10:37:00 <TrueBrain> I have done one too many assessments within small and (very) large company to know that is a common problem :(
10:40:21 <peter1138> I guess I can add 'analytics' to the login process to see how often people need to log in, and how long it takes them to do so.
10:40:33 <TrueBrain> you won't like what you see :P
10:42:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/JnlkG
10:44:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8712: Thread safety issues detected by ThreadSanitizer https://git.io/Jt9Pk
10:44:38 <TrueBrain> to highlight #9382: "Creating a thread was not thread-safe. The irony." :)
10:45:16 <TrueBrain> just in our case we did a "if (a != <invalid memory) return", so it could never result in a bad experience for the user
10:45:35 <TrueBrain> even if the invalid memory was the value of "a", nothing bad happened
10:48:18 <TrueBrain> ugh .. we really could use a more clear separation between GUI-calls and game-loop-calls :P
10:48:35 <TrueBrain> and guard access from GUI-calls to game-state and from gameloop-calls to GUI-state :P
11:02:20 <peter1138> Damn, took me 3.6 seconds to pick my saved password.
11:23:04 <peter1138> Next, add a captcha and really annoy everyone.
11:23:31 <peter1138> Although I think all the articles saying "don't use a captcha" are based on the old ones, which were more intrusive.
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11:57:11 <peter1138> I wonder how annoying a "Warning, you have not set up 2FA on your account!" message would be? :D
12:13:33 <Xaroth> depends on how annoyingly big it obstructs the interface :P
12:13:53 <Xaroth> if it's a giant flashing popup that covers your entire screen, very
12:13:54 <Rubidium> peter1138: just let them type in some text from a SMS to confirm they really want 2FA not to be enabled
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13:32:18 <peter1138> Nice, I have login times of... -2147483648. Oops.
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14:07:10 <Samu> testing some changes that allows my AI to spend more time on managing road routes
14:07:55 <Samu> results are kind of expected :(
14:08:14 <Samu> there are now more road vehicles than aircraft
14:08:37 <Samu> but the number of aircraft was also affected
14:09:29 <Samu> in terms of profits, things went worse, expected
14:11:37 <Samu> I'm unsure if I like this change overall
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14:16:41 <peter1138> Love it when someone shares their browser window in Teams and... none of the popups appear.
14:17:21 <peter1138> You need an AI to control what your AI should focus on.
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14:18:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 merged pull request #9377: Cleanup: nullptr and boolean literals instead of NULL, 0 or 1 https://git.io/JnCp9
14:21:05 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/Jnl7F
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14:40:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 updated pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnCpH
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15:03:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/Jnljg
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16:02:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 updated pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnCpH
16:38:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 approved pull request #9380: Fix: thread safety issue during exiting the game https://git.io/Jn8cR
16:47:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/Jn8WI
16:57:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/Jn884
16:59:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9380: Fix: thread safety issue during exiting the game https://git.io/JnWH8
16:59:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/JnlkG
17:04:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/Jn84g
17:07:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 approved pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/Jn8Be
17:11:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/Jn8By
17:27:49 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/Jn8u3
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18:05:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #9381: Fix: don't propagate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/Jn8wB
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18:10:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9381: Fix: don't propagate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/Jn8rs
18:10:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9382: Fix: on startup, NewGRF scan could case race-condition https://git.io/JnlkG
18:13:03 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: I started out in this lovely world where everything video related can be pushed outside the game-state .. only to find out our code is so intertwined you really cannot just do that :P Polling the event system is the most interesting to me ... tons of state can be changed in there :P So much work left to do :D
18:21:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #9381: Fix: don't propagate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/Jn8oh
18:23:00 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #9381: Fix: don't propagate shift/ctrl state till next game-tick https://git.io/JnWNl
18:24:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/JnnOJ
18:29:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/Jn863
18:33:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #9376: Feature: Show the number of clients and companies in the online players window https://git.io/Jn86A
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18:50:58 <peter1138> Well I had no idea MicroProse is thing again.
18:52:00 <peter1138> Hmm, brand bought in 2019.
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19:51:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9367: Fix #9358: TarScanner no longer ignores empty files https://git.io/Jn8QF
19:57:42 <norri> not entirely happy with the cycle, it's a bit wasteful... but I guess it doesn't matter too much for scenario editor
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20:08:22 <jez> is there a "proper" way for my code to just estimate a command instead of actually executing it? DoCommandP calculates its own value for estimate_only - i basically want to be able to set that to true
20:11:10 <jez> hmm, interesting.... DoCommandP doesn't use that
20:11:20 <jez> estimate_only must be doing something else
20:12:55 <jez> actually, DoCommandP is the network-safe one
20:13:07 <jez> that doesn't seem to take flags
20:20:36 <jez> i guess if i'm just testing, i should use DoCommand?
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22:00:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #9383: Fix: Wrong cargo line position in IndustryCargo window. https://git.io/Jn4kO
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22:05:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #9383: Fix: Wrong cargo line position in IndustryCargo window. https://git.io/Jn4kQ
22:06:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #9383: Fix: Wrong cargo line position in IndustryCargo window. https://git.io/Jn4kN
22:08:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #9358: Bug Report - tar loader ignores empty files. An AI that requires such file fails to start https://git.io/JZ93n
22:08:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #9367: Fix #9358: TarScanner no longer ignores empty files https://git.io/JZbpT
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22:35:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #9383: Fix: Wrong cargo line position in IndustryCargo window. https://git.io/Jn4kO
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