IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-04-07
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00:00:36 <peter1138> Is vcpkg used for the dependencies for the official binaries?
00:13:34 <TrueBrain> That is what makes this so strange :(
00:14:38 <TrueBrain> Stackoverflow suggested it is thread related and that the binaries are mixed in mode
00:14:51 <TrueBrain> But I don't understand MSVC :p
00:18:45 <peter1138> Hmm, windows-static
00:29:55 <peter1138> Meh, if I tried x64-windows-static myself, then cmake doesn't find it.
00:31:38 <peter1138> Oh right. That shitty thing where I have to restart VS Code.
00:33:11 <peter1138> Success. It no longer crashes.
00:34:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #8814: Assertion failed downloading content from BaNaNaS. https://git.io/JqTdZ
00:38:59 <peter1138> Well shit. It fixed libpng, but not zlib :(
00:41:22 <peter1138> Oh gods. No, zlib is fixed.
00:41:35 <peter1138> I still had a breakpoint left there from last time... so it still "stopped" haha
00:48:28 <spnda> I found somewhere online that it was caused by /MDd and fixed with /MTd or something similar. So something thread-related
00:51:35 <peter1138> No, they're both multithreadead.
00:52:02 <peter1138> /MD Causes the application to use the multithread-specific and DLL-specific version of the run-time library.
00:52:08 <spnda> well its not my conclusion. Was just something I found on stackoverflow from someone having the issue with zlib
00:52:11 <peter1138> /MT Causes the application to use the multithread, static version of the run-time library.
00:53:40 <peter1138> /MDd links MSVCRT.lib, /MTd links LIBCMTD.lib.
00:53:48 <peter1138> Sounds a bit like different runtimes...
00:54:56 <peter1138> string(REPLACE "/MD" "/MT" ${MSVC_FLAGS} "${${MSVC_FLAGS}}")
00:56:02 <peter1138> So if my x64-windows is shared, but we are forcing /MT(d), could that cause a mix up?
00:57:04 <peter1138> And so, switching to x64-windows-static works because then it's all /MTd in vcpkg land too.
00:57:57 <peter1138> I imagine that replace is not the correct method.
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03:06:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jschadewald commented on issue #8960: Game crashed while trying to get details on crashed plane https://git.io/JY5YT
03:06:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jschadewald closed issue #8960: Game crashed while trying to get details on crashed plane https://git.io/JY5YT
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04:05:49 <reldred> ahhhhh I love this patch
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06:51:22 <reldred> Not quite, doesn't compile atm but I don't know if that's because it's inherited a bug from upstream that's already been fixed or something.
06:51:37 <reldred> But I am awfully fond of multi-tile depots.
06:52:09 <reldred> I do enjoy playing with it quite a bit
07:31:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #8716: Fix #8713: Change OTTD2FS and FS2OTTD to return string objects https://git.io/Jt9Ha
07:31:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #8713: Win32 OTTD2FS/FS2OTTD used from multiple threads but use a static buffer https://git.io/Jt9XE
07:37:05 * andythenorth had to wear more clothes
07:42:54 <reldred> It's autumn here now and it's still pretty warm
07:52:08 <peter1138> We're on a cold snap. Snow and hail in April...
07:55:01 <andythenorth> more coffee vicar?
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08:05:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #8814: Assertion failed downloading content from BaNaNaS. https://git.io/JqTdZ
08:05:43 <peter1138> Also it's 5 minutes past work o'clock.
08:11:03 <nielsm> I'm looking at this NWidget code again and it makes me cry
08:11:41 <nielsm> why is the NWidgetLeaf class implementing 24 different classes
08:17:10 <peter1138> What are you up to?
08:17:58 <nielsm> that volume slider widget, make it a real widget
08:18:28 <nielsm> and the nested window system is just fighting against any kind of reasonable extensibility
08:20:05 <peter1138> Not really, it's just designed for what was needed at the time. It shouldn't be too hard to extend NWidgetCore?
08:21:49 <peter1138> I've got ideas about changing how dimensions are specified and stored.
08:22:49 <peter1138> So far I've got padding/pip spacing be rescaled when needed, but it's not 100% yet.
08:31:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8814: Assertion failed downloading content from BaNaNaS. https://git.io/JqTdZ
08:46:02 <peter1138> ^ And precisely that kinda of change improves my WIP patch...
08:48:37 <nielsm> it'd be nice to have the nested widget part lists changed into some kind of actual nested structure, taking advantage of C++ initializer lists
08:50:08 <nielsm> so you could do e.g.: NWidgetHorizontal({ NWidgetCloseBox(COLOUR_GREY), NWidgetCaption(COLOUR_GREY, STR_WHATEVER_WINDOW_CAPTION) })
08:51:05 <nielsm> and the entire thing results in some kind of factory class instance
08:51:41 <peter1138> Some checks were not successful
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08:51:42 <peter1138> 8 successful and 4 cancelled checks
08:51:56 <peter1138> I think that's just the CI though.
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08:54:05 <nielsm> looks like the tests on that PR somehow got stuck in the windows builds
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08:56:30 <LordAro> nielsm: that would be nice, yes
08:58:29 <peter1138> Drop down lists were meant to be part of some grander plan for genericizing stuff, but it turned out they were a weird special case due to the pop-up "window".
08:59:05 <peter1138> That's why they are all alone in that directory, lost amongst the headers...
09:00:13 <peter1138> I guess other than dropdown_widget.h, the dropdown stuff should be in the main directory after all.
09:03:11 <andythenorth> how to explain cargo aging crap in buy menu?
09:03:17 <andythenorth> 'Comfort level'?
09:03:33 <reldred> Just call it cargo aging?
09:03:52 <reldred> I'm personally not a fan of inventing new terms for things.
09:04:13 <andythenorth> Well...what are the units?
09:04:22 <andythenorth> 'slow', 'fast' etc?
09:04:59 <nielsm> Comfort level: Standing/hard seats/soft seats
09:05:20 <reldred> Well when you're coding the .grf, what are you doing to cargo aging? Is it a bonus? A minus? Percentage based?
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09:05:43 <reldred> Whatever term that is used should be applicable to cargo as well, in-case you go down that route later on.
09:05:54 <reldred> Either in Horse or Hog or whatever.
09:06:21 <andythenorth> I've removed all the cargo aging crap from freight
09:06:35 <reldred> But in case you revisit it later on.
09:06:40 <andythenorth> Nah it's a load of shit
09:06:57 <reldred> Also keeping in mind you very well may set the standard for terminology/etc that other set authors may copy from.
09:07:19 <andythenorth> all this was solved around about 2013
09:07:29 <andythenorth> I thought I was innovating here, but all this is done already in multiple sets
09:08:28 <reldred> Perhaps, but your implementation of your set is probably the most consistent and polished of all the vehicle sets I've used over the last decade and a half.
09:08:59 <peter1138> Is this property 2B?
09:09:21 <andythenorth> and explaining it to player
09:09:34 <andythenorth> "in words of one sentence"
09:09:46 <peter1138> So in OpenTTD since 1.2.
09:09:57 <andythenorth> yeah around for a long time
09:10:12 <peter1138> So it's not really surprising that it's not you innovating by using this attribute :p
09:11:15 <andythenorth> There are better ones than that
09:11:33 <andythenorth> It's a thing to relocate yachts to one end of popular sailing routes
09:11:39 <andythenorth> or between regions
09:11:52 <andythenorth> that one looks a bit...sinky? :)
09:12:44 <andythenorth> quite cool no? :)
09:12:44 <reldred> I dunno, I'm looking at it and just thinking 'Cargo aging', maybe for your set just use "Very Slow, Slow, Medium (Default), Fast, Very Fast"
09:12:56 <reldred> Define those values however the hell you like.
09:13:30 <andythenorth> what about if we give the vehicle the aging chart for the currently refitted cargo?
09:13:34 * andythenorth not even trolling here
09:13:43 <andythenorth> describing it in words is meaningless
09:13:55 <LordAro> andythenorth: neat. i knew they existed for transporting partially built hulls, but not full ships
09:13:58 <andythenorth> it's not the number of tiles, it's the number of days, and that changes with newgrf
09:14:08 <reldred> I don't think that's too difficult a concept, I mean if you make up a new term for it you then have to explain that term as 'cargo aging rate' anyway, just call it cargo aging.
09:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> reldred: i'm thinking that description would fall unter "technically correct", but a player wouldn't know what that means
09:14:37 <andythenorth> Or I just skip all this and put 'role'
09:14:42 <andythenorth> Role: short routes
09:14:49 <andythenorth> what is 'short'?
09:15:36 <andythenorth> Horse Metro already does this actuall
09:15:42 <andythenorth> Role: high capacity urban
09:15:43 <reldred> Eddi|zuHause: you reckon? TrueBrain and I had this argument about terrain generation. I think sometimes people think players are dumber than what they actually are. I think it's *ambiguous terms* that causes issues with players.
09:15:55 <Eddi|zuHause> ticket class: "local", "long distance", "luxury"
09:15:57 <andythenorth> Player then turns up with 2 stations on opposite sides of 128 tile city
09:16:06 <andythenorth> Runs metros, shows I suck
09:16:31 <reldred> Well the problem with roles andy is dickwagon thought 1024 tiles was a reasonable 'commuter' route... LOL
09:16:36 <andythenorth> Ambiguous terms are murder
09:16:47 <andythenorth> Oh wait, no I'm being ambiguous there :P
09:17:04 <andythenorth> The less confusing thing would be:
09:17:14 <andythenorth> Payment bonus: 1.5x
09:17:21 <reldred> I mean if you write anything in that field other than cargo aging, at some point you're going to have to explain that it is cargo aging. May as well just be upfront about it.
09:17:28 <Eddi|zuHause> reldred: just the word "commuter" is already ambiguous enough...
09:17:31 <reldred> I personally still like the 'Suitable for' field
09:17:45 <reldred> That should still stick around
09:17:52 <nielsm> andythenorth: how about just straight up "suitable distance: 20-50 tiles" something like that
09:18:01 <andythenorth> it's not a distance though :)
09:18:06 <andythenorth> otherwise I would
09:18:16 <nielsm> suitable travel time: X days
09:18:17 <reldred> Eddi|zuHause: yeah that's what I'm getting at.
09:18:28 <reldred> Prop 2B is measured in 'ticks' though.
09:18:34 <andythenorth> travel time requires knowing the payment curve set by the newgrf
09:18:45 <andythenorth> guess which FIRS type grf changes the payment curvers for pax?
09:19:03 <reldred> But even just 'medium' 'slow' 'very fast' at least gives a point of reference vs. other wagons in your set.
09:19:06 <andythenorth> explaining crap in the buy menu is .... the worst :D
09:19:40 <andythenorth> I've already repainted the fast aging coaches to reduce player confusion
09:19:53 <andythenorth> maybe looking different will help show difference
09:20:30 <reldred> Yeah, looking more distinct is always a good thing anyway.
09:20:39 <andythenorth> Goes it add Horse parameter for cargo aging factor?
09:20:44 <reldred> Not that your sprites were 'bad'
09:20:45 <andythenorth> then player can define what short is
09:21:20 <andythenorth> How many tiles for short route: x
09:21:32 <reldred> Yeah, define with variables what slow/medium/fast is? then they can't complain LOL
09:21:33 <andythenorth> How many days for short route: x
09:21:39 <andythenorth> How many days for long route: y
09:21:43 <andythenorth> interpolate x and y
09:22:07 <andythenorth> Because Players Definitely Need This Level of Control yes/no?
09:22:13 <reldred> Maybe just go with your gut and define that as the 'medium' setting and then extrapolate from there? I mean as I've said before I've had no problems with 2.21.1
09:22:34 <reldred> On the size maps I play at least.
09:22:53 <reldred> Which are anywhere from 256x1024 up to 2k x 4k
09:23:13 <andythenorth> Comfort level: LOL
09:23:15 <reldred> I also partially solved the issue for my games by using daylength patch in JGR
09:23:19 <andythenorth> Comfort level: Doge
09:23:34 <andythenorth> I don't even want to think about what daylength does to this payment rate
09:23:35 <Timberwolf> You're way too altruistic. I've broken stuff outright often enough to realise that if you tell players something is happening, they'll find a way to believe it is.
09:23:51 <andythenorth> I don't care about the players :)
09:23:53 <reldred> It's all an illusion *wibbly wobbly hands*
09:23:54 <andythenorth> I care about it being good
09:23:54 <Timberwolf> It's nice if that's based in some mechanic which does influence the thing in question :)
09:24:08 <peter1138> When you try to clear up confusion and other person just gets more confused >_<
09:24:26 <andythenorth> Generally this is why I don't put much info in buy menu ^ :)
09:24:38 <andythenorth> People turn it into weird post-hoc rationalisations
09:24:39 <reldred> You hit a good sweet spot.
09:25:02 <andythenorth> Mostly the whole set is 'pick train, run train, make money'
09:25:10 <Timberwolf> I wonder if anyone assumes the little vehicle bios I put in have a gameplay effect...
09:25:11 <andythenorth> 'if not making money, scrap train, or git gud'
09:25:22 * andythenorth loads timberwolf trains
09:25:29 <reldred> I mean that's why I think you should just be upfront about cargo aging. Whatever units you use is kinda irrelevent so long as the set as a whole uses those units consistently.
09:25:41 <Timberwolf> I'm surprised I've not had any proper foamers complain, "that's blatantly incorrect" (other than a couple of typos)
09:25:45 <andythenorth> Timberwolf I want steep gradients for the 76!
09:25:52 <andythenorth> How do I get steeper gradients!
09:26:00 <andythenorth> 2 height levels per tile!
09:26:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's always been the way of OpenTTD
09:26:18 <Timberwolf> I'd say "play Locomotion", but that's only available for narrow gauge.
09:26:28 <reldred> And then just maybe have parameters to /1 /2 /4 /8 or x2 x4 x8 the values afterwards to shut up idiots like dickwagon who want to make a '1k commuter route'.
09:26:30 <FLHerne> Players who *really* care about being optimal RTFM
09:26:56 <andythenorth> Timberwolf the engine sound is not accurate on the 26
09:27:02 <FLHerne> Players who just want to play go by trial-and-error and come up with their own irrational rules of thumb
09:27:04 <andythenorth> this is a good game :)
09:27:06 <reldred> I'm pretty picky when I sit down to build trains for my routes in Horse.
09:27:34 <reldred> Sometimes I pick wrong and it hurts, but that's part of the fun.
09:27:36 <Timberwolf> Agh, I still need to do something with sounds.
09:27:47 <Timberwolf> The Class 450/444 need to make their annoying and stupid noise.
09:27:53 <andythenorth> Timberwolf so I need to only use the class 33 in summer months on pax!
09:28:00 * andythenorth needs complicated timetabling
09:28:03 <FLHerne> Timberwolf: ...have you heard a 700?
09:28:10 <Timberwolf> Which set had proper heating rules? PKP?
09:28:40 <andythenorth> Snail has braking rules
09:28:49 <andythenorth> I haven't tried PKP
09:29:03 <andythenorth> I have considered brake type, and heating type as factors
09:29:07 <Timberwolf> Between Trains and Road Vehicles, the vehicle bios represent some 400-odd times I managed to successfully battle the urge to write something silly.
09:29:24 <Timberwolf> Well, except for "2 horses".
09:29:37 <andythenorth> oh you did the wagons too
09:30:37 <Timberwolf> And the horse in a Zorb from Road Vehicles, but if you allow that to turn up in your game you're not exactly expecting a factual description of the real world prototype.
09:30:40 <TrueBrain> someone on Steam is asking if we can add a method to make the GUI bigger; it is too small for his 1080p screen :P
09:31:05 <reldred> tell him to buy glasses
09:32:08 <reldred> OOohhh! I crashed 1.11.0!
09:32:38 <reldred> Just changed font size to 2x and it got upset
09:33:11 <Wolf01> Does OpenTTD support VR?
09:33:32 <Timberwolf> Oh, is the Leopard and Foster Bus sounds being swapped an OpenTTD thing or an OpenSFX thing?
09:35:52 <LordAro> we did a new release, no?
09:37:11 <Timberwolf> I should check to see if I have the latest, I saw that commit but not sure if the version I have is before or after it.
09:38:03 <peter1138> Bloody Google Nest. It keeps turning my thermostat down because it's Spring...
09:38:31 <peter1138> When it's 0 outside, 17 feels rather cool inside.
09:39:06 <andythenorth> so should I make a train payment calculator for Iron Horse html docs?
09:39:33 <andythenorth> Train Accountant!
09:39:38 <andythenorth> Train Bean Counting!
09:39:45 <peter1138> reldred, there are some windows that don't scale very well, so depends what you have open at the time.
09:40:13 <Timberwolf> Very important and realism-breaking otherwise.
09:40:45 <andythenorth> Because I always check the cargo payment rate before building a route
09:40:50 <reldred> Eh, Ive had no problems with the 2x scaling of UI and Font on a Surface Go with a small 10" very high DPI panel, or my home desktop with a 3440x1440 panel. And the latter has a similar pixel density to most desktop 1080p panels.
09:40:52 <andythenorth> count the number of tiles on my fingers
09:41:10 <peter1138> Also, the github actions stuff refers to opengfx 0.6.0, not sure what that affects.
09:41:16 <reldred> andythenorth: bout a few
09:41:26 <andythenorth> I count in binary
09:41:41 <andythenorth> when I get to 10, the route requires planes
09:42:08 <reldred> Gotta say, some days working on nfo I end up counting binary on my fingers...
09:42:23 <Timberwolf> There seems to have been some edict in what eventually became the Leyland empire, that all vehicles produced had to emit more noise from the gearbox than the engine.
09:47:37 <andythenorth> ok so either I call it Cargo Aging: [Very fast | Fast | Normal | Never]
09:47:54 <andythenorth> or Comfort Level: [Very low | Low | Normal | High]
09:48:24 <andythenorth> this is only for pax cars
09:48:31 <glx> trying x64-windows-static-md triplet was a good test case, as it fails at link time
09:48:37 <reldred> Just call it cargo aging. You're only going to have to explain to someone later andy that the 'comfort level' is cargo aging so why not just deal with it now.
09:48:40 <andythenorth> all freight wagons have cargo aging 'normal' no exceptions, does the buy menu also need to state 'Carging Aging' to avoid doubt?
09:48:55 <reldred> I'd only state it on the vehicles that need it stated?
09:49:06 <reldred> I'm just thinking about Hog2 or whatever comes down the line.
09:49:14 <andythenorth> Wagons don't state 'Power: 0hp'
09:49:38 <andythenorth> But what if cabooses affect aging rate?
09:49:43 <andythenorth> or what if players think they might?
09:49:50 * andythenorth inventing fake problems for lulz
09:50:07 <reldred> Refrigerated cars might be the only ones they could think of.
09:50:23 <andythenorth> I removed aging from those
09:50:38 <peter1138> Timberwolf, I wish I had that much leg room in a car. Especially as small a car as a Metro.
09:50:47 <reldred> Yeah, I'd only put the cargo aging on the vehicles it applies to.
09:51:12 <reldred> Maybe on the pax ones put aging: normal on the baseline just so people can compare.
09:51:34 <reldred> And then just state in the manual that cargo aging does not affect cargo wagons job done ship it
09:51:51 <peter1138> Timberwolf, my first car was a Fiat Uno, 1985 vintage.
09:52:44 <glx> peter1138: still use a '87 citroën visa
09:52:52 <peter1138> Problem with nostalgia for these old cars is they were actually shit, and very unsafe...
09:53:30 <peter1138> I miss my Citroën Xantia.
09:53:45 <reldred> I love and miss my old Volvo 740 turbo wagon :'(
09:53:49 <peter1138> reldred, was it you with the tree?
09:53:55 <andythenorth> me never owned a car
09:54:13 <reldred> I've been implicated in various things relating to trees
09:54:31 <reldred> stolen trees, cars crashed into trees,
09:54:41 <reldred> potentially fixing improved trees
09:54:50 <reldred> Haven't stuck my nose in that one yet.
09:55:18 <reldred> I've been pondering generating tropic trees on coast lines...
09:55:26 <peter1138> Tree hugging hippy crap!
09:55:59 <reldred> I wouldn't say I was ever a tree hugging hippy. Used to go to a lot of hippy psy trance raves and do drugs though.
09:56:28 <peter1138> The car was tree hugging...
09:57:55 <reldred> Oh yeah. Red one. That hugged a tree alright. Bent like a goddamn banana.
09:58:07 <reldred> How I walked away from that one...
09:58:38 <reldred> No I later on bought a white 740 wagon. With a turbo. Because the red one without a turbo was obviously not enough jandal for me.
09:58:55 <reldred> And I definitely didn't then fit a manual boost controller and dial it up to 12psi
09:59:13 <glx> and screenshot crash is fixed
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10:19:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8964: Fix: [CMake] Use the right run-time library depending on vcpkg triplet https://git.io/JYNku
10:22:15 *** michi_cc_ is now known as michi_cc
10:34:12 <michi_cc> peter1138: Something in #7441 seems to break Windows CI regression, it gets stuck in that step.
10:35:34 <glx> hmm only thing I can see is the appariting of a message box
10:36:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8964: Fix: [CMake] Use the right run-time library depending on vcpkg triplet https://git.io/JYNt0
10:36:17 <glx> but openttd should not open them if there's no gui
10:39:35 <peter1138> Hmm, so Test is breaking... what does Test do.
10:40:58 <glx> hmm I seem to be stuck in an infinite loop after clicking on "ok" once bananas download are finished
10:42:18 <peter1138> 11:36 <@DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8964: Fix: [CMake] Use the right run-time library depending on vcpkg triplet https://git.io/JYNt0
10:42:27 <peter1138> Test not available without configuration. (Missing "-C <config>"?)
10:43:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8964: Fix: [CMake] Use the right run-time library depending on vcpkg triplet https://git.io/JYNku
10:44:44 <glx> peter1138: ctest -C Debug
10:45:18 <glx> or Release or ReleaseWithDebInfo, depending on the current build type
10:46:10 <peter1138> 100% tests passed, 0 tests failed out of 2
10:46:11 <peter1138> Total Test time (real) = 20.37 sec
10:46:17 <peter1138> Takes a while but works. Hmm.
10:46:33 <glx> yeah it's long if you have many newgrf locally :)
10:47:28 <FLHerne> Hm, I tried to test the OpenMSX one, but music doesn't work for me at all
10:47:43 <FLHerne> It cycles through all the songs very rapidly without making any sound
10:48:02 <FLHerne> (including with OpenMSX from BaNaNaS)
10:48:19 <LordAro> FLHerne: timidity, usually
10:48:29 <LordAro> (and associated soundfont)
10:49:16 <michi_cc> peter1138: It's entirely possible that something on the GitHub side is fucked up, I just noticed it getting stuck in that step.
10:50:25 <peter1138> Oof, turns out if you forget WHERE in your SQL statement, and have joins, the conditions are ... a bit different :-)
10:50:36 <glx> no need to eat github ressources
10:51:23 <glx> Test project D:/a/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/build
10:51:24 <glx> Start 1: regression_regression
10:51:24 <glx> 1/2 Test #1: regression_regression ............ Passed 26.75 sec
10:51:24 <glx> Start 2: regression_stationlist
10:51:36 <glx> ah it's stuck in station list regression
10:52:17 <glx> but that's all I could get from github
10:53:42 <FLHerne> soundfonts take a while to download at 100kb/s :-(
10:54:03 <peter1138> Do you think if I tested with the correct branch it might be more representative?
10:54:05 <glx> hmm and regression fails for me
10:56:46 <glx> ok I get a crash window for station list
10:57:29 <glx> regression fails because notperfectai versioning is broken
10:57:42 <glx> ERROR: Registering two scripts with the same name and version
10:57:42 <glx> ERROR: 1: notperfectai-1.3\main.nut
10:57:42 <glx> ERROR: 2: notperfectai-1.5\main.nut
10:58:02 <michi_cc> Maybe some kind of compile flag that forces a text output of the crashlog with no dialog would be good for regression.
10:58:31 <glx> well that's my local error
11:00:15 <peter1138> Passes both tests for me.
11:01:24 <glx> will need to attach to debugger, but it's time to eat :)
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11:02:21 <FLHerne> Can someone approve OpenSFX#14 and OpenMSX#20? I'm not in that group, but I've tested them and they work
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11:08:49 <andythenorth> is it lunch already?
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11:13:33 <andythenorth> I made restaurant cars just eliminate run costs for pax coaches
11:13:46 <andythenorth> can't be arsed to test balancing some specific %
11:13:58 <andythenorth> specific % can just be 100%
11:15:05 <andythenorth> train is gonna make £300k / year anyway
11:15:15 <andythenorth> this saves £10k in running costs
11:16:25 <nielsm> does the restaurant car have running costs in itself?
11:17:06 <andythenorth> conveniently the run cost is about 4x the cost of a pax coach
11:17:38 * andythenorth such silly balancing
11:17:42 <nielsm> well, so it kind of makes sense on trains with 2 or more passenger cars
11:17:47 <andythenorth> payment rate multiplier anyone? o_O
11:18:33 <andythenorth> ideally I'd just give it 50% of the capacity and 200% of the payment rate
11:18:38 <andythenorth> and not touch the other vehicles
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11:18:47 <andythenorth> then there's none of this balancing crap
11:18:48 <nielsm> make the restaurant car carry 4 passengers and make them load really slowly, and not refittable
11:18:53 <andythenorth> it's just 'here, have restaurant car'
11:19:15 <andythenorth> I couldn't figure out how to resolve the vehicle from VehicleCargoList so I couldn't patch a multiplier
11:19:48 <andythenorth> it would be much simpler to just have 'premium trains' and 'crap trains'
11:19:52 <andythenorth> and vary ticket price
11:20:26 <nielsm> short, medium and long distance passengers as distinct cargo types
11:20:50 <nielsm> short distance will not pay fare for destinations outside their own town
11:21:24 <nielsm> medium will only pay fare for destinations outside their own town, but at most half a map size away
11:21:32 <nielsm> long needs to travel at least half the map
11:22:04 <andythenorth> I proposed splitting pax cargos and frosch ran away from the channel
11:22:08 <andythenorth> I was trolling at the time
11:22:12 <andythenorth> but maybe it's a thing
11:22:25 <andythenorth> like yacd, but without the overhead
11:22:33 <andythenorth> _probably a silly idea_
11:22:40 <FLHerne> something something Tourists
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11:23:52 <andythenorth> something something
11:25:07 * andythenorth goes it remove cargo aging effect from restaurant car?
11:25:17 <andythenorth> one less thing to explain
11:25:27 <nielsm> also long distance passengers are only accepted by hotels
11:25:56 <andythenorth> so much gameplay
11:26:20 <andythenorth> but we need individual seats in vehicles to be refittable for this
11:26:30 <andythenorth> as long distance and short can use same bus
11:26:34 <andythenorth> for part of journey
11:28:00 <andythenorth> New Cargo Subtypes
11:28:04 <andythenorth> cargo packet has a subtype :P
11:32:53 <peter1138> sub cargo sub type sub types
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11:40:42 <andythenorth> wait, it was lunch
11:40:47 * andythenorth wasting time making grfs
11:42:26 <peter1138> I've got a sandwich thin with jam on it, old school style.
11:42:50 <peter1138> I should send my partner out to the supermarket...
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11:43:57 <andythenorth> they're not exactly Neneh Cherry are they
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11:46:44 <andythenorth> 1 egg or 2 for scrambled?
11:46:47 <andythenorth> toast is not very big
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11:52:44 <peter1138> Why did I not think of egg? :(
11:53:24 <andythenorth> because there is only one thought of egg
11:53:27 <andythenorth> and I was using it
11:53:47 <andythenorth> however I am now done with it
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12:08:27 <andythenorth> quak it's snail_UES_
12:10:38 <andythenorth> so how to game mechanic for motorail?
12:10:53 <andythenorth> just put pax capacity on the motorail wagons?
12:11:27 <peter1138> Urgh, why do I feel unwell.
12:11:41 <peter1138> Maybe it's a sugar rush from bread, jam & then a bit of chocolate.
12:12:18 <andythenorth> or too much coffee
12:14:34 <peter1138> I love that if you have a file open in Excel, you can't say, send a copy or upload it. Because it's open.
12:15:03 <LordAro> i don't think that's exclusive to excel
12:15:12 <LordAro> though excel has its own set up weirdnesses about open files
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12:24:41 <Timberwolf> My favourite is that the root object for the scripting language is based on the filename (without path), so you can't open two files with the same name.
12:25:35 <LordAro> ah yes, that's a classic
12:26:47 <andythenorth> I can't be bothered to do forum reply, but McZapkie's experience with slow 4k map mirrors what the mac client is doing with 4k maps
12:27:19 <andythenorth> is it new though, really?
12:27:46 * andythenorth tries to ffwd world-gen, oops fails
12:28:07 <glx> debugging done peter1138 ;)
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12:29:30 <andythenorth> mac client performance is ~same with 4k for 1.10 and 1.11
12:29:31 <peter1138> That is... odd. Whatever happened to compile time checks. :/
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12:35:44 <glx> hmm but we disabled this kind of messages
12:36:13 <LordAro> cmake changes somehow?
12:36:36 <glx> /* Don't show abort message as we will get the crashlog window anyway. */
12:36:36 <glx> _set_abort_behavior(0, _WRITE_ABORT_MSG);
12:36:43 <glx> unless it's a different kind
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12:42:32 <TrueBrain> lol ... if the network protocol tries to read a byte outside the size of the packet, it returns 0
12:42:38 <TrueBrain> not an error, as 0 could also be a valid value
12:42:43 <TrueBrain> so there is no way to know this from the caller :D
12:43:15 <glx> ok seems to be a different kind and not catchable
12:44:49 <TrueBrain> owh, and also when the server is already disconnected, it doesn't allow reading the current packet anymore
12:44:55 <TrueBrain> explains the errors peter1138 was seeing yesterday
12:45:09 <TrueBrain> "here is a valid packet; owh, the socket is disconnected YOU CANNOT READ IT NOW MWHAHAHAHAHA"
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12:48:27 <peter1138> So I need to get into the habit of calling ctest, I guess.
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12:48:50 <peter1138> ... I have just noticed there's a button for it in VS Code... sigh.
12:50:02 <TrueBrain> its like it is a standard :P
12:50:57 <peter1138> Well, the cmake integration doesn't exactly work the same was as other run/build/test in VS Code, so...
12:52:04 <peter1138> Maybe there's a launch.sj
12:52:14 <peter1138> launch.json that works
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13:19:16 <Timberwolf> Hmm... I'm not normally one to go promoting my own stuff, but a thread of "mods to start at 1700" where most of the suggestions are, "this vehicle set starts in 1920" is almost like someone set up a topic to deliberately annoy me if I don't post, "er yeah, hey, I made some things for that"
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13:25:39 <TrueBrain> getaddrinfo for hostname "", port 45206, address family either IPv4 or IPv6 and socket type tcp failed: Name or service not known
13:35:22 <TrueBrain> took him 2 days to find the wrong place to report it :D
13:37:54 <LordAro> 2 days? that crash log was generated 2 minutes before the post
13:38:07 <TrueBrain> ah, I did not check that :P
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13:38:17 <TrueBrain> so let me rephrase: took us 2 days to find he reported in the wrong place :P
13:38:56 <peter1138> Hmm. Who owns a bridge?
13:39:27 <peter1138> I've got a bridge over water between two towns, and the owner of each end is of course the nearest town for that end...
13:39:57 <reldred> The bridge does not exist. It is a magical portal.
13:40:56 <andythenorth> reality hits convention
13:44:28 <peter1138> nielsm, deep oceans pls
13:45:09 <reldred> More landgen stuff. MORE.
13:45:11 <peter1138> Just clearing up some trolling :p
13:46:35 <andythenorth> so which mod is the supported one?
13:46:54 <Timberwolf> egvrts, naturally.
13:47:00 * andythenorth shouldn't be naught, what the post shows is how confusing the mods are :)
13:47:06 <peter1138> Aw, run out of money.
13:47:12 * andythenorth misses discord edit feature here
13:47:16 <andythenorth> irc twilight I think
13:47:44 <andythenorth> if Microsoft don't buy Discord and make a business version, work will have to switch from irc to Slack
13:48:07 <Timberwolf> I think also the problem of, "this mod hasn't been touched in years but it has sensible cargo classes and defaults, so works fine" vs. "this mod was abandoned recently but it's already broken for several industry sets"
13:51:02 <TrueBrain> [2021-04-07 15:50:43] dbg: [net] Auto-restarting map. Year 1951 reached
13:51:05 <TrueBrain> having random settings is funny :P
13:51:07 <andythenorth> peter1138 ctrl-alt-c
13:51:59 <peter1138> I'll just steal money from another player
13:52:45 <peter1138> Can you give money via rcon?
13:59:12 <supermop_Home__> andythenorth i think currently horse fails the criterion of 'supported by its developer'
14:14:26 <peter1138> Hmm, feels like aBase on the intro screen struggles.
14:16:14 <andythenorth> if I had a sock puppet
14:16:28 <andythenorth> it would say 'please add a cargo payment multiplier to newgrf vehicles'
14:16:43 <andythenorth> campaigning for FIRS in base game seems like shooting myself in head :P
14:19:08 <supermop_Home__> andythenorth then firs is no longer your problem to maintain
14:19:19 <andythenorth> you think it works that way? :)
14:19:24 <andythenorth> pls send me newsletter
14:19:49 <supermop_Home__> it does if you get it in the game then run away to north sentinel island
14:20:15 <supermop_Home__> then nothing in the game is your problem anymore?
14:35:56 <andythenorth> Timberwolf please add realistic liveries :)
14:36:13 * andythenorth wants to see NSE in voxel
14:36:40 <Timberwolf> I wonder how much horror is needed to make the vehicles use a fixed 2cc recolour rather than the player one.
14:37:03 <andythenorth> do you want to know?
14:37:08 <andythenorth> I actually know the answer to that
14:37:13 <andythenorth> you'll want a code generator
14:37:50 <Timberwolf> My suspicion is, "relatively easy to do conceptually with a template-based approach, but you have done this and now it's not"
14:38:24 <andythenorth> no it's relatively easy
14:38:28 <andythenorth> just a bit brain-bending
14:38:58 <Timberwolf> Yeah, I think the limitation would be "how have I implemented things" not "is it easy to write the NML"
14:39:07 <andythenorth> palette_2cc(company_colour1, COLOUR_WHITE) etc is quite easy I think
14:39:24 <andythenorth> and the logic to get there is easy enough
14:39:51 <andythenorth> I made it harder by providing random darker of lighter shades of each company colour
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14:41:56 <TrueBrain> peter1138: I have build a new better version (at least I hope) .. if you have some time to test again, I would love to see if it works this time :D
14:43:25 <TrueBrain> I also created boilerplate to allow clients to accept(), instead of only the server .. meaning that if the NAT in one direction fails, it can try it in the other direction too :D
14:43:39 <TrueBrain> but that is not finished yet, as I first want to know if this resolves the issue I had with peter1138 yesterday :)
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14:53:49 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: I can see if it works for my ISP [Virgin Media] if you tell me which buttons to press
14:54:53 <TrueBrain> can you compile yourself?
14:55:48 <TrueBrain> compile and start a multiplayer server
14:55:51 <TrueBrain> and I will see if I can join it :D
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14:57:47 <peter1138> See if you have a decent router or one that TrueBrain can 'hack' :-)
14:58:24 <TrueBrain> its crazy to realise most VOIP phones do this
14:58:51 <peter1138> I knew of STUN but I'd not ever looked at what was actually involved.
14:59:37 <TrueBrain> I am also still really surprised it works
15:00:16 <TrueBrain> I expected more routers to validate SYN sequence numbers
15:00:24 <TrueBrain> but clearly it is easier to only check source/dest pairs :P
15:00:47 <FLHerne> Well, at this point fixing it would piss everyone off
15:00:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #8966: Feature: News/advice setting to warn if no depot order in vehicle schedule https://git.io/JYNbo
15:00:58 <TrueBrain> it is also not so much "broken"
15:01:06 <TrueBrain> as in, I cannot see a real security issue with it
15:01:14 <TrueBrain> 2 sides make an outgoing connection to each other
15:01:21 <TrueBrain> so it makes sense that those 2 peers should be able to talk to each other
15:02:12 <andythenorth> encore Warcraft 1?
15:02:17 * andythenorth took a week off to do grf
15:02:21 <andythenorth> so naturally I'm not doing it
15:05:38 <peter1138> Hmm, there is a vcpkg for miniupnpc, but not libnatpmp
15:06:48 <peter1138> If miniupnpc can to NAT-PMP, that would be a better choice as it's maintained. libnatpmp isn't.
15:10:32 <peter1138> Haha, network nerds are like "UPNP can f right off"
15:10:42 <TrueBrain> anyway, let me know if you have some time to test again peter1138 ; this should give less weird errors at least :P
15:11:17 <TrueBrain> Network code is so hard to understand ... Templatest classes with static functions that fill static class members of the one defining the template
15:11:21 <TrueBrain> really, impossible to follow :P
15:11:34 <peter1138> In around an hour I can play.
15:14:03 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: server is 'Lemon 12' on 86.10.122.80
15:14:20 <TrueBrain> funny enough, thename, IP and advertisement is all irrelevant :P
15:14:21 <FLHerne> (the same as on my luggage!)
15:14:26 <TrueBrain> all that is important is the lobby ID :)
15:14:31 <TrueBrain> which is "1" for your server :P
15:14:49 <TrueBrain> and I won't be able to join, as the branch-name is not set on your end, but let me try if the connection can be set up anyway :)
15:15:06 <TrueBrain> its not punshing through :'(
15:15:39 <peter1138> Turns out that TrueBrain made this mega cool system that only works on his own router...
15:15:51 <TrueBrain> peter1138: haha, no, I have more people for who it works :D
15:15:56 <TrueBrain> I tested it before I build it :P
15:16:14 <peter1138> Network nerds really are anti-UPNP. How dare something make it easy for users to do things...
15:16:20 <TrueBrain> I really need to make a simple application that gathers debug information about this :P
15:16:30 <TrueBrain> peter1138: security vs user-friendlyness ..
15:16:31 <peter1138> (I do understand it's a security risk, but still...)
15:16:35 <TrueBrain> an endless unwinning fight :D
15:16:43 <FLHerne> One moment, I rebuilt it with hopefully the right branch name
15:16:46 <TrueBrain> the most friendly system has no security in place :)
15:17:15 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: and please start with "-dnet=1" and I would like to see your logs afterwards :)
15:18:12 <peter1138> "just put them on public IPs and don't NAT" ooh yeah, we should do that
15:19:36 <FLHerne> My join key is 2 this time
15:19:48 <TrueBrain> yeah .. branch name still isn't correct, but that is okay :P I can't connect anyway :D
15:19:52 <TrueBrain> can you gist me your logs?
15:21:08 <TrueBrain> weird part about this all, I am behind 3 NATs :P And I can punch a hole :P
15:21:23 <FLHerne> see also branch name in prompt :p
15:21:41 <TrueBrain> '20210407--g40190a5ebf" is your revision the game says
15:21:48 <TrueBrain> also shows like that in the main menu :)
15:21:55 <FLHerne> Oh, stupid, I forgot to actually check out the new branch :p
15:22:32 <TrueBrain> seems everything went as it should
15:22:41 <TrueBrain> so I need tcpdumps :P But I am sure peter1138 can help me with that tonight :D
15:22:59 <FLHerne> Yeah, now it's better
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15:23:18 <TrueBrain> if you like, start the game with "-n 3"
15:23:31 <FLHerne> Well, I can install tcpdump
15:23:47 <TrueBrain> if you know how to use it, would be lovely
15:24:12 <FLHerne> I don't now, but I can read the manpage
15:24:24 <FLHerne> Of course, half of manpages are inscrutable line noise
15:24:39 <TrueBrain> tcpdump -i eth -n host <myip> and port not 12121 and port not 12122
15:24:49 <TrueBrain> but as you can see, you can just connect to me without issue :)
15:25:11 <peter1138> This is where truebrain forgets he set up is test platform as the DMZ host...
15:25:39 <TrueBrain> people that live nearby me had no issue connecting, so I am still not sure if it is a latency issue
15:25:42 <TrueBrain> or that I am doing something wrong
15:25:49 <TrueBrain> or this just doesn't work for most NATs :P
15:26:05 <TrueBrain> but I have an ISP NAT, Unify NAT, and WSL2 NAT .. and it punches through without issue
15:29:15 <TrueBrain> got any output from tcpdump?
15:31:47 <FLHerne> Is there a list of ports I *should* be listening to? Trying to blacklist them is just telling me how many random network-connected applications are running on here :p
15:32:17 <TrueBrain> tcpdump -i eth -n net 62.251.50.124 and port not 12121 and port not 12122
15:32:23 <TrueBrain> should filter out any other traffic
15:32:40 <nielsm> TrueBrain: I'll try to make a build and connect
15:32:47 <nielsm> if you have it running
15:33:00 <TrueBrain> and it now supports infinite amounts of servers
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15:34:34 <nielsm> so how are you supposed to connect?
15:34:40 <TrueBrain> create a network game
15:34:47 <TrueBrain> I will see the lobby being created and try to join it :)
15:35:49 <TrueBrain> you have the simplist form of NAT, so hmm ..
15:36:21 <TrueBrain> nielsm: it was hanging at "Authorizing"
15:36:45 <TrueBrain> it is doing something
15:37:11 <TrueBrain> that is a completely different problem :D
15:37:28 <TrueBrain> bidirectional communication is established
15:37:35 <TrueBrain> but ... for some reason really slow? I dunno :P
15:37:52 <TrueBrain> I receive the network revision
15:38:10 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: you are ingame, or what do you mean?
15:38:28 <TrueBrain> so the inability to join is an issue on my side? :P
15:38:31 <FLHerne> I saw "that is a completely different problem" and wondered if I'm not supposed to be
15:38:52 <nielsm> running with debuglevel net=3 now
15:39:12 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: what happens if you host a game and nielsm tries to join it?
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15:40:32 <FLHerne> I think I phrased that confusingly, please ignore everything I said :p
15:40:48 <TrueBrain> nevertheless, I would like to know if nielsm can connect to FLHerne :)
15:42:10 <TrueBrain> surprised nielsm is not kicked for flooding :P
15:42:13 <TrueBrain> sorry :D And tnx nielsm
15:42:30 <TrueBrain> nielsm: can you join lobby 3?
15:42:31 <FLHerne> I have started a server
15:42:42 <FLHerne> just with `openttd -dnet=1`
15:42:57 <TrueBrain> (starting openttd with "-n 3")
15:42:57 <FLHerne> I can add the `-n 3` again if you wanted me to
15:43:06 <TrueBrain> nielsm tries to join
15:43:11 <TrueBrain> -n joins a server :)
15:43:24 <TrueBrain> ugh, Game Coordinator crashed :P
15:43:33 <TrueBrain> nielsm: lobby 1 now :)
15:43:35 <FLHerne> And yes, it does say join-key: 3
15:43:48 <TrueBrain> hmm .. crash again .. oops
15:43:51 <TrueBrain> owh well, it recovered
15:43:52 <FLHerne> clearly you're spying on me
15:44:01 <TrueBrain> I see the logs from the game coordinator, yes :)
15:44:09 <TrueBrain> and, did that work?
15:44:36 <FLHerne> Nothing happened, so I assume not
15:44:46 <TrueBrain> bah .. was worth a shot :D
15:44:46 <FLHerne> tcpdump output is as before
15:45:01 <TrueBrain> yeah, that is expected
15:45:08 <TrueBrain> and tcpdump is not going to give more info at this point
15:45:16 <TrueBrain> I needed to know if I did the binding correct, and I did
15:45:20 <TrueBrain> some something else is going on
15:45:27 <TrueBrain> I need to write a test-tool to see what your NATs are doing
15:45:49 <nielsm> I think maybe I had windows firewall blocking before
15:46:03 <TrueBrain> start a new server and we can find out :)
15:46:33 <TrueBrain> nielsm: still same issue .. there is a connection, but it has a lot of packetloss and is dropped after a while
15:47:07 <FLHerne> It's hung up at 2/6 Authorising for me
15:47:30 <TrueBrain> there is a connection, just something is conflicting
15:47:41 <TrueBrain> nielsm: what OS are you on?
15:48:30 <TrueBrain> k, tnx both for testing :)
15:48:33 <TrueBrain> I have some more puzzling to do
15:48:44 <nielsm> and I think I have double NAT actually
15:48:58 <nielsm> I forget if I set my ISP's router/modem to passthrough or not
15:49:56 <nielsm> yeah it's two layers of NAT
15:50:11 <TrueBrain> yeah, I have a similar setup
15:50:30 <nielsm> uh... try if you can connect directly to my IP on 3979
15:50:40 <nielsm> because I think I actually have a regular port forward set up
15:51:07 <TrueBrain> UDP at least is not responding
15:51:22 <nielsm> only TCP forward set up
15:51:34 <TrueBrain> yeah, and -n doesn't allow IP-based joining atm :D
15:51:37 <TrueBrain> I had to hack it in somewhere :P
15:52:27 <TrueBrain> no reply over TCP either
15:57:26 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: looking at your tcpdump there is one interesting thing there .. for some reason there is an ICMP packet there .. let me see what that is about ..
15:58:37 <TrueBrain> ugh, we should just do TURN and make people pay for it :P Done :D
15:59:12 <TrueBrain> well, worst case, nielsm , I have some groundwork for when the protocol is fully UDP :P :P
15:59:36 <TrueBrain> now first,dinner time
16:01:15 <nielsm> I checked both my routers now and they definitely are set up right...
16:03:50 *** nielsm is now known as Guest811
16:05:08 <peter1138> Ok, building stun-me
16:05:28 *** EER has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
16:07:27 <nielsm> trying to connect to you, reached step 2 now
16:07:43 <TrueBrain> that is more than yesterday :P
16:07:59 <TrueBrain> right, dinner ... :P
16:08:02 <peter1138> assert(sockets.size() == 0);
16:08:36 <nielsm> trying to host again on my end, 5
16:09:01 <nielsm> and I also fixed my port forwards/DHCP reservations so port forwards should work for me again
16:09:22 <peter1138> If that works then this test is irrelevant :)
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16:10:39 <peter1138> Waiting for TB to try :p
16:15:27 <TrueBrain> joining via lobbies doesn't use any portforward setup :P
16:16:00 <TrueBrain> world smallest island
16:16:10 <TrueBrain> let me try connecting a few more times
16:16:25 <TrueBrain> takes a bit of time before it works
16:16:41 <peter1138> That's better than not working, right?
16:17:02 <TrueBrain> but also makes me wonder why that is :D
16:17:11 <TrueBrain> first connect fails
16:17:27 <TrueBrain> quick, nielsm / FLHerne , join lobby 6!
16:17:59 <TrueBrain> okay, so my work of today was useful :P
16:18:47 <FLHerne> I connected, and saw your 'welcome' message
16:18:48 <FLHerne> Then protocol error, yes
16:18:57 <FLHerne> Well, there was a hang
16:19:18 <FLHerne> I got to 4/6, then "last 5 seconds no message from server", then joined
16:20:11 <TrueBrain> okay .. I think that is all latency related
16:20:18 <TrueBrain> I have some idea what I can do about that
16:20:22 <TrueBrain> but first, eating the dinner :D
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16:33:04 <frosch123> TrueBrain: do you need more stunning?
16:33:23 <frosch123> my new router also has no option to configure port forwarding :p
16:36:16 <andythenorth> oof warcraft 1 ate my afternoon
16:36:20 <andythenorth> how did that happen then?
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16:37:34 <frosch123> wow, i cannot even join my own server :p
16:44:36 <nielsm> hm random idea, make vehicles count how many times they have cycled through their orders list
16:45:13 <nielsm> that both gives a fun stat to look at, and could also allow conditional orders of the type "every Nth time, do X"
16:45:19 <andythenorth> expiring trains?
16:45:24 <andythenorth> like battery charge cycles
16:45:34 <andythenorth> 10 loops of the route, and it self-scraps
16:46:45 <frosch123> nielsm: did you try jgr's programmable signals and orders?
16:46:59 <frosch123> i would not be surprised if they have registers and state
17:06:54 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is not uncommon that routers don't allow connecting to their own public IP
17:07:24 <TrueBrain> at least I can join .. that is, if this is your server I am on :P :P
17:08:06 <TrueBrain> and a server with a password
17:08:27 <TrueBrain> so it "mostly" works :P
17:08:45 <frosch123> though it's weird that you appear in the client list before entering the pw
17:08:58 <TrueBrain> the whole password thing is done in such a weird moment/wy
17:09:02 <TrueBrain> we should really address that honestly
17:09:49 <frosch123> it says you joined via ipv4
17:09:58 <TrueBrain> yeah, this whole stuff atm is IPv4 only
17:10:09 <TrueBrain> mainly as the STUN server is IPv4 only :)
17:11:38 <TrueBrain> was reading some other people who did similar things
17:11:45 <TrueBrain> their summary is constant: there is a chance this works
17:11:49 <TrueBrain> and a chance it doesn't :P
17:13:09 <TrueBrain> another trick that seems to work .. just send connect() to each other .. lets see how stable that is
17:16:14 <TrueBrain> but the server assumes in more than one place it goes via accept() :P Lets see ...
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17:17:51 <TrueBrain> that surprisingly works
17:18:09 <nielsm> got a new version I can try out?
17:18:50 <TrueBrain> its an interesting idea .. 2 TCP sockets with connect() to each other will also establish a two-way stream
17:19:04 <TrueBrain> bypassing the whole need to do the accept() dance
17:19:29 <nielsm> you just need to know the source and destination port for both ends in advance
17:19:39 <TrueBrain> strictly seen it violates TCP specs, but most OS stacks appear to fix it
17:20:38 <TrueBrain> it works better, as there is no FIN on the line
17:20:41 <TrueBrain> which seems to be the issue
17:20:54 <TrueBrain> I love to see that nielsm also made a 64x64 map :P
17:21:08 <TrueBrain> I should learn to count :D
17:21:18 <TrueBrain> right ... peter1138 / FLHerne up for another round of testing? :D
17:22:31 <TrueBrain> hell, even if it works only for 50% of the people, it is a huge increase in people that do not have to fiddle with their router :P
17:22:32 <TrueBrain> the other suggestion solution is to leave the TCP connection to the STUN intact for the duration of the session
17:22:40 <TrueBrain> so NATs don't close the entry
17:22:52 <TrueBrain> but if we can avoid that, that would be lovely :P
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17:24:04 <TrueBrain> peter1138: flawless :D
17:25:25 <nielsm> anyone I can try joining?
17:25:43 <peter1138> So, er, how does it work?
17:25:58 <TrueBrain> peter1138: what part? The TCP part?
17:26:20 <FLHerne> I just started one, it's 3
17:26:29 <TrueBrain> so FLHerne 's makes 3 / 4 :P
17:26:49 <FLHerne> "the server didn't answer the request, red dialog"
17:27:12 <peter1138> I got the same. Just sat there, my own server closed on me :p
17:28:06 <TrueBrain> you don't like that? Awh :P
17:28:27 <peter1138> Shit he's remote controlling my PC
17:29:27 <TrueBrain> the network code really assumes the server gets connections via accept(), so I guess something is acting up there
17:30:06 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: can you start your server again, just to see it wasn't an accident?
17:30:52 <FLHerne> six seconds after worldgen finished
17:31:00 <TrueBrain> most likely the moment I connect
17:31:03 <TrueBrain> restart and I will not connect
17:31:11 <TrueBrain> milek7's works fine too .. so that makes 4 out of 5
17:31:54 <FLHerne> Didn't peter1138 say he got the same?
17:32:21 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: I know what is causing yours
17:32:35 <TrueBrain> basically, something on your machine is not allowing the outgoing connection as requested
17:32:43 <TrueBrain> so the connect() fails
17:32:55 <FLHerne> I'm not running ufw at the moment
17:32:57 <TrueBrain> (and I did not write the code yet to handle the failure case correct in case you are a server :P)
17:33:13 <FLHerne> What port does it want?
17:33:21 <nielsm> it uses random ports every time
17:33:37 <TrueBrain> but tcpdump also showed an ICMP drop
17:33:52 <TrueBrain> for some reason, after binding, it is not allowing the outgoing packet to go
17:33:55 <FLHerne> And while I have various things using different ports, it's unlikely to hit used ones by chance :p
17:34:03 <TrueBrain> I have seen that on one of the test machines I have access to too
17:34:11 <TrueBrain> 0 chance, the kernel finds a free one
17:34:48 <nielsm> well if you have multiple machines on the network depending on the NAT implementation maybe it will remap the outgoing port number
17:34:48 <FLHerne> (this is on Linux 5.11.8, fwiw)
17:34:54 <TrueBrain> I think this happens because it rebinds on the same socket
17:35:39 <TrueBrain> so basically, the first connection goes from A to B. Then we try a connect from A to C, and it says: NOPE I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO ROUTE TO C
17:35:49 <TrueBrain> while D to C does work
17:36:06 <TrueBrain> not completely sure how/why/what is going on there
17:36:52 <TrueBrain> (where A, B, C and D are (ip:port) pairs)
17:37:42 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe I should get a takeaway
17:40:29 <TrueBrain> oof, and I really need to do something about the connect() timeout .. guess that is also what frosch123 was having issues with over IPv6 :P It takes 30+ seconds before connect() times out :D
17:41:11 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: I pushed a new version; mind trying this?
17:41:25 <TrueBrain> it retries the connect() 3 times, just so see if that helps :D
17:41:31 <frosch123> yep, needs async resolve
17:42:57 <TrueBrain> the logs showed 3 connection attmpts?
17:44:21 <TrueBrain> so the second time at least it doesn't show "No route to host"
17:45:30 <TrueBrain> I guess the issue is that the NAT closes when it sees the FIN of the STUN request
17:45:35 <TrueBrain> which would be the sane thing to do btw
17:46:00 <TrueBrain> the suggested solution for that is to leave the STUN connection open, but .. that means we have 2 sockets open on the same local ip/port
17:46:15 <TrueBrain> for Windows that means they both receive data, randomly to which goes what
17:46:21 <TrueBrain> pretty sure I cannot reconstruct that :P
17:47:28 <TrueBrain> basically what I am doing is: open the door, close the door, and JUST before it is closed, sneak in another stream, which keeps the door open
17:47:40 <TrueBrain> I think that your NAT is quick in closing the door
17:48:21 <TrueBrain> and this is why UDP is more reliable, as the odds of that happening is much much lower
17:49:09 <TrueBrain> the other thing people do, is predict what the next port the NAT is gonna use, give or take, and just spray
17:49:18 <TrueBrain> so both sides try 10 ports or something
17:49:53 <TrueBrain> but that sounds really ... nasty
17:53:21 <andythenorth> uuf much sprites to redraw
17:53:26 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:53:32 * andythenorth teddy bear drawing
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17:54:15 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: just because I would like to confirm my hypothesis is correct, I pushed a new version that does the spraying
17:56:37 <TrueBrain> but so yes, that is the issue
17:57:06 <TrueBrain> but did you really have a full server? :D
17:57:22 <FLHerne> It was set to max companies 1 for some reason
17:57:39 <TrueBrain> now it has a password :P
17:58:23 <TrueBrain> I think spraying like this really is not okay to do
17:58:39 <TrueBrain> but it does mean I am correct in my hypothesis, well, making it no longer a hypothesis I guess :D
17:58:49 <TrueBrain> but when your NAT sees the FIN, it closes the route
17:58:58 <TrueBrain> so for a short moment, reusing the route gives an ICMP error
17:59:04 <TrueBrain> and after that, it has another local port
17:59:15 <FLHerne> Wolf01: It's amazing, I have the same code on my luggage
17:59:32 <TrueBrain> I think we start off by not supporting those NATs, honestly
18:00:48 <Wolf01> My luggage only have 3 cyphers... so I had to drop the zero-fill :P
18:07:51 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: one thing I am curious about, but not sure you can help with that .. is it your NAT, or is it Linux? Do you happen to have a Windows machine or VM to test with?
18:09:30 <FLHerne> I don't have a Windows machine
18:09:51 <FLHerne> I could try tethering the laptop to my phone, I suppose...
18:09:54 <nielsm> I can try on linux a bit later
18:09:57 <FLHerne> Not sure if that would prove anything
18:10:08 <TrueBrain> if it still doesn't work, it doesn't mean anything
18:10:12 <TrueBrain> but if it does work, it is your NAT :P
18:10:20 <FLHerne> Yeah, that's what I thought
18:10:57 <FLHerne> if it didn't work, it might just be that Linux is still being a layer of the notworking stack
18:11:11 <TrueBrain> so if you can try tethering, it at least gives me another datapoint :D
18:11:27 <FLHerne> But I don't have a Windows VM on this machine, and the machine it's on is boxed up
18:12:26 <TrueBrain> owh, right, I have to remove the spray patch first, euh ... let me fix that
18:12:50 <FLHerne> now, can I find a phone signal...
18:13:29 <nielsm> making a linux build now
18:13:41 <TrueBrain> the current branch is bad, give me a sec :)
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18:15:57 <FLHerne_> hm, it's rebuilding more files this time
18:16:03 <nielsm> btw when you want others to continually fetch your branch and build/test, it's better if you don't amend commits and force-push
18:16:04 <TrueBrain> yeah, did some cleanup
18:16:11 <nielsm> makes it easier for others to just git pull
18:16:18 <TrueBrain> nielsm: I know :P I just keep forgetting :D
18:16:37 <TrueBrain> so it is your NAT :)
18:16:54 <TrueBrain> nielsm: ammending is so hardwired, that I have a hard time not doing it :P
18:17:11 <TrueBrain> not the best outcome, but one that we can explain :)
18:17:25 <FLHerne_> The NAT is a modem-router from one of the UK's main ISPs, with stock configuration of everything relevant
18:17:45 <FLHerne_> So probably representative of a fairly large set of users
18:18:01 * FLHerne_ looks at router settings to see what it says
18:18:17 <FLHerne_> oh, wait, I'm not connected to it...
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18:22:13 <nielsm> okay opengl is a disaster on my linux laptop
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18:22:20 <FLHerne> uPnP is enabled, "Firewall protection", "Port scan detection" and "IP flood detection" are all enabled
18:22:29 <FLHerne> "Block fragmented IP packets" is disabled
18:22:47 <TrueBrain> I think we do have to add uPnP too, and try that first
18:22:49 <nielsm> I see a "general timeout" error in the console
18:22:58 <TrueBrain> nielsm: that might have been me trying to connect :D
18:23:17 <FLHerne> It's this usual bullshit where it's simplified enough to be unclear, but still doesn't mean anything to non-technical people
18:24:04 <nielsm> TrueBrain yeah it shows your IP on that connection id
18:24:17 <TrueBrain> and it fails to connect
18:24:45 * peter1138 ponders asking his ISP for more IPs.
18:25:09 <nielsm> linux 5.10.17 (fedora) on same network as my desktop running windows
18:25:27 <TrueBrain> can we try your desktop with the same code too? Maybe I made a boo-boo in some cleanup I just did :D
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18:28:22 <TrueBrain> okay, so I fucked up something :D
18:32:30 <TrueBrain> generic timeout you say .. hmm ..
18:33:16 <nielsm> want me to connect to you?
18:34:45 <TrueBrain> I did connect, but I timed out, right?
18:34:50 <TrueBrain> might be a variable that is not set correctly
18:37:52 <nielsm> I'll try a dedicated server then
18:38:29 <TrueBrain> but the logs show we are connected?
18:39:00 <TrueBrain> yeah, okay, so a timer is wrong
18:39:02 <TrueBrain> let me see which one
18:39:34 <TrueBrain> how things are initialized is really .. euh ... annoying to see :P
18:41:15 <TrueBrain> nielsm: what is your "max_init_time" ?
18:42:49 <TrueBrain> set network.max_init_time
18:44:06 <TrueBrain> guess we need a bit of debugging ..
18:44:22 <TrueBrain> network.cpp, around like 275 is NetworkCalculateLag
18:44:25 <nielsm> try joining 11 once more
18:44:30 <nielsm> the game is paused now
18:44:42 <TrueBrain> revision mismatch, that is my mistake :D
18:44:47 <nielsm> the error says took more than 100 ticks to join so maybe if it's paused
18:45:17 <TrueBrain> my computer is now too slow to keep up
18:45:57 <TrueBrain> I am curious what last_frame_server / last_frame of "cs" is
18:46:10 <TrueBrain> I somehow have the feeling they are initialized wrong or something
18:46:18 <TrueBrain> but code-wise I see no reason for that
18:47:28 <TrueBrain> can you join your own server btw?
18:47:34 <TrueBrain> hmm, possible not via STUN .. :D
18:48:28 <nielsm> I do get the network revision
18:48:30 <LordAro> glx: #8967 needs a dmp decode :)
18:49:25 <TrueBrain> I wonder why it works for me and not for you :D I am sure it is because I did something silly ..
18:49:57 <TrueBrain> but earlier I also had "pool" errors, which made no sense what so ever
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18:55:59 <TrueBrain> nielsm: I can neither reproduce it, nor find the reason why it would do that :(
18:56:31 <TrueBrain> if you could add those debug prints I talked about earlier, maybe that sheds some light on the situation
19:04:23 <nielsm> I'm also going to patch IsNetworkCompatibleVersion to return true
19:05:12 <nielsm> dedicated server started
19:05:34 <TrueBrain> let me try a direct ip connect ..
19:05:54 <TrueBrain> so it is somewhere in the new code .. something not initialized of sorts ..
19:06:53 <TrueBrain> huh? lag = 0, but it times out?
19:07:19 <nielsm> yeah but like 150 lines of spam of that function
19:07:42 <TrueBrain> I guess that means the second part of the lag calculator kicke din
19:08:49 <TrueBrain> can you also print "_frame_counter" there?
19:09:48 <TrueBrain> most of that code needs to be rewritten to use the real clock, but okay .. something for another day :D
19:09:54 <TrueBrain> join timeouts based on ticks .. that is just odd
19:10:59 <nielsm> frame_counter went from 175 to 349 up one by each line printed
19:11:30 <TrueBrain> okay, so that is all working as expected, basically
19:11:46 <TrueBrain> it really took more than 100 ticks to start
19:12:08 <nielsm> also no, I'd say it's correct to calculate lag based on game ticks rather than real time
19:12:19 <TrueBrain> for some parts, yes
19:12:19 <nielsm> the problem is if the client falls behind the simulation
19:12:23 <TrueBrain> but for the initial packet?
19:12:47 <TrueBrain> there is a mix of "game" lag and "realtime" lag :)
19:13:24 <TrueBrain> for example, entering the password .. should be time rather than ticks, I say
19:13:32 <TrueBrain> anyway, can you set max_init_time to 1000 or so?
19:13:35 <TrueBrain> see if that fixes it?
19:15:28 <TrueBrain> that really doesn't feel like it took 3 seconds ..
19:15:32 <TrueBrain> 100 ticks is 3 seconds, right?
19:15:54 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I did manage to join
19:15:59 <TrueBrain> but I am not receiving anything anymore :D
19:16:30 <TrueBrain> time seems to flow correctly
19:16:40 <TrueBrain> but on join, it was also saying I didn't receive anything from the server for 5+ seconds
19:17:25 <TrueBrain> it really doesn't takes 3 seconds from the moment I am connected to being ingame, so I wonder why it gets so confused
19:17:44 <TrueBrain> too bad our logger doesn't add time :D
19:23:55 <TrueBrain> nielsm: I really do not understand what is going on here :)
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19:26:05 <TrueBrain> nielsm: can we try one more time with the 1000 delay? To see if I can stay ingame for a longer period of time?
19:27:07 <TrueBrain> and now it doesn't want to connect at all :P Lol
19:28:35 <TrueBrain> that what was working before, stopped working now :D Great!
19:30:21 <TrueBrain> I receive a SYN and a FIN from you :P
19:31:08 <nielsm> removed the debug print spamming the console
19:31:37 <TrueBrain> well, it works now :P
19:31:56 <TrueBrain> can we leave it on for like 5 minutes?
19:32:11 <TrueBrain> tnx, and tnx a lot for helping testing :D
19:32:26 <TrueBrain> I guess tomorrow I make some GUI stuff for this .. so we can spread it a bit further .. collect some more samples
19:32:54 <nielsm> also maybe make it handle normal connects again
19:33:04 <TrueBrain> already have that locally, yes
19:33:51 <nielsm> dunno how you're doing it atm but I'd suggest using some prefix to indicate a lobby id
19:34:05 <TrueBrain> "-n +<lobby>" is wha tI did now :)
19:34:14 <TrueBrain> and I will make the GUI work tomorrow
19:34:15 <nielsm> that can't be mistaken for a hostname or ipv4 or ipv6 address
19:34:17 <TrueBrain> so we don't have to use it :P
19:34:24 <TrueBrain> + sign works for that, not? :D
19:34:25 <nielsm> does it work with the console connect command?
19:34:48 <TrueBrain> I will put it on my list of things to look at
19:35:04 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe I should have had dinner
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19:38:46 <peter1138> Huh, what's SimpleSpriteAlloc() used for? Is it for looking at sprite data outside the blitting system?
19:45:18 <peter1138> Cool, my mountain biking group is out tonight.
19:47:56 <peter1138> What was I thinking when I wrote this newgrf dock stuff..
19:48:47 <nielsm> so it's not ready to ship, I take it
19:48:57 <nielsm> can't present it to your piers yet
19:49:23 <peter1138> So it's a whole new NewGRF feature, not GSF_STATIONS...
20:01:02 <nielsm> I just had the thought that easy conversion of singleplayer to multiplayer and having someone else join your game will make it much easier to help debug issues someone is having in a game
20:02:19 <TrueBrain> allow FF in MP you say? :D
20:05:07 <TrueBrain> k, this seems to work fine nielsm :D Tnx!!
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20:15:18 <peter1138> Hmm, what's the diff between NWID_MATRIX and WWT_MATRIX?
20:16:15 <peter1138> Ah, "totally different" appears to be it
20:27:51 <nielsm> uh I figured out the difference a while ago when I did the tree planting UI rewrite and now I've forgotten again
20:29:05 <FLHerne_> " In this game you can find a lot of green tiles, you can find UFOs above the green tiles, but not a single iguana, does it make sense? I don't think so."
20:29:20 <FLHerne_> 12 people found this review helpful
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20:29:32 <TrueBrain> a positive or negative review? :D
20:29:34 *** glx is now known as Guest826
20:31:09 <FLHerne> "this is the best game ever created, you can even make a train that goes faster than another train and make another train next to the first train that is going between the second train and the train that someone else built and another train that makes profit and another train that is very long and another train that takes coal and a bus!"
20:31:17 <FLHerne> I love the Steam reviews
20:32:49 <TrueBrain> if you feel sad, read Steam reviews of OpenTTD
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20:42:34 <milek7> what happened there? ;p
20:43:24 <FLHerne> "cannot put stations, then can, then cannot" sounds like confusion about local authorities
20:43:34 <FLHerne> Which is understandable because it's a stupid mechanic
20:44:02 <TrueBrain> we can never ask, as comments are disabled :P
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21:04:33 <Xaroth> 0.6 hours? that's like 35 minutes :P
21:05:04 <Xaroth> it takes skill to break something that quickly :P
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21:14:57 <TheArcaneBrony> hi, any chance 1.11.0 has a bug that prevents multiplayer from working?
21:15:14 <Xaroth> What kind of error are you getting?
21:15:50 <TheArcaneBrony> "Your computer took too long to join the server"
21:16:24 <glx> too big for your computer I think
21:16:33 <TheArcaneBrony> i tried both ways
21:16:42 <TheArcaneBrony> between 2 clients, same error
21:16:46 <TheArcaneBrony> both directions
21:17:06 <LordAro> what is your download/upload speed?
21:17:24 <TheArcaneBrony> (its a LAN game)
21:17:37 <TheArcaneBrony> tried putting both clients on a wired connection, same error
21:17:47 <nielsm> try putting the game on pause before joining
21:18:22 <nielsm> (there is also a setting somewhere that makes the server auto-pause while someone is joining/downloading the map)
21:18:26 <LordAro> what CPU do the computers have?
21:18:54 <glx> btw 4k maps are usually boring to play ;)
21:19:39 <LordAro> (basically, no, there are no known issues with multiplayer)
21:20:48 <TheArcaneBrony> i7-7950H in my case
21:21:18 <TheArcaneBrony> i3-4150 on the server
21:21:56 <glx> good point, you put the server on the "slowest" machine, that's the recommended setup
21:22:00 <LordAro> i3 could be a bit slow, mostly dependent on single-core clock speed
21:22:39 <LordAro> *a bit slow for 4k map
21:22:39 <nielsm> basically, first try if you can play with a sensible map size (not larger than 1024x1024)
21:22:55 <glx> it's better to have slow server than client unable to keep up
21:22:57 <nielsm> and also try if it makes a difference to have the game paused while people are joining
21:23:53 <nielsm> and yes I agree, unless you are something like 30 people at a lan party all agreeing to play together, a 4k map may as well be all of you playing singleplayer
21:24:04 <TheArcaneBrony> well, i tried with the server on the i7 first, but same thing
21:25:11 <glx> with or without pausing ?
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21:30:32 <LordAro> glx: think you need to shout at your ISP
21:32:35 <glx> yeah but I first need to check the installation, it's new from saturday, I was on adsl before
21:32:59 <glx> maybe something is not fully inserted
21:33:11 <TheArcaneBrony> with pausing, same result
21:33:38 <glx> hmm there's a setting for join time IIRC
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21:35:08 <glx> default is 500 ticks, about 15s
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21:36:36 <LordAro> especially with the decompression stuff
21:36:53 <LordAro> gigabit lan, actually transferring the save should be essentially nothing
21:37:31 <TrueBrain> These values should scale to map size I guess ;)
21:38:34 <glx> gigabit lan could use "raw" save format
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21:43:18 <TheArcaneBrony> incase my client broke because its really silent here
21:43:34 <TheArcaneBrony> regardless i tried pausing, same thing
21:45:01 <milek7> 25s to save 4k map (on rather fast cpu)
21:45:07 <milek7> but it loads in under 3s
21:46:23 <milek7> TheArcaneBrony: there is max_download_time setting
21:46:35 <TheArcaneBrony> ill try changing it on the host
21:48:40 <TheArcaneBrony> is it possible the setting isnt there?
21:49:13 <glx> these settings are probably not available in GUI
21:49:25 <TheArcaneBrony> ah yeah i cant find them there
21:49:30 <glx> but they are from the console
21:49:46 <FLHerne> Should be in openttd.cfg under [network]
21:50:00 <FLHerne> (don't edit it while OpenTTD is running, it'll be overwritten)
21:50:02 <TheArcaneBrony> theres no console in gui, is there?
21:50:12 <FLHerne> There's a console in gui, press `
21:50:20 <FLHerne> (backtick, above tab here)
21:51:36 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jasperfirecai2 opened issue #8968: Arrow key camera panning not consistent with framerate https://git.io/JYAK6
21:53:01 <TheArcaneBrony> milek7: command not found
21:53:10 <TheArcaneBrony> wait i need to use set
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21:54:56 <TheArcaneBrony> froze at 27.0 MiB this time
21:55:04 <TheArcaneBrony> milek7: same error
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21:58:58 <TheArcaneBrony> ill try to throw up a dedicated server on my linux box so i have the console there
22:00:08 <LordAro> TheArcaneBrony: what did you increase it to?
22:00:15 <LordAro> but seriously, use a smaller map
22:00:53 <TheArcaneBrony> is it possible to run a dedicated server without a graphics set?
22:02:02 <peter1138> 4096x4096 was a joke
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22:03:14 <LordAro> TheArcaneBrony: no (though there is a nogfx graphics set lurking around the internet)
22:04:16 <TheArcaneBrony> you can apt install it apparently, and it works fine
22:04:38 <TheArcaneBrony> (apt install openttd-opengfx on ubuntu, works fine)
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22:06:23 <LordAro> TheArcaneBrony: you have not yet explained why you cannot run, or even try, a smaller map
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22:09:23 <FLHerne> LordAro: meh, if we support 4k maps they ought to work
22:09:36 <FLHerne> That said, they do suck from a gameplay perspective IMO
22:09:52 <milek7> it seems lzma is too slow for default time limit
22:10:14 <LordAro> seems like the solution is the zstd stuff
22:10:26 <LordAro> though possibly with some timeout scaling
22:12:07 <LordAro> though i'm not sure how we could do that sanely and the value still making any sense
22:12:23 <TheArcaneBrony> update: i found the fix
22:12:31 <TheArcaneBrony> i changed max_join_time to 32000
22:13:21 <peter1138> Enjoy getting lost and endlessly scrolling
22:13:30 <andythenorth> bank/me wonders about 4k map with no trees
22:13:44 <andythenorth> that's my password for my bank
22:13:53 <LordAro> peter1138: you should try jgr's 8k maps :p
22:13:58 <andythenorth> not sure where I even typed bank
22:14:04 <TheArcaneBrony> this seems to happen often
22:14:13 <TheArcaneBrony> or at least, it happened once
22:14:17 <peter1138> TheArcaneBrony, it's auto save, probablky.
22:14:53 <TheArcaneBrony> this isnt official, is it?
22:15:09 <andythenorth> did someone delete the 'no trees' option :P
22:15:50 <andythenorth> 14080 industries on this 4k map
22:15:56 <andythenorth> GG connecting those
22:16:00 <LordAro> andythenorth: i feel like it got moved to the settings window?
22:17:28 <andythenorth> I don't understand why ffwd doesn't make map gen go faster
22:17:37 <andythenorth> what kind of game even is this?
22:17:42 <andythenorth> is it not modern?
22:17:56 <peter1138> Offload map gen to your gpu?
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22:18:29 <peter1138> Create the map in chunks depending on what is being looked at?
22:18:29 <andythenorth> then my mac will throttle
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22:19:20 <andythenorth> why is that the time already?
22:22:04 <peter1138> Available AIs "Regression" "StationList"
22:23:30 <TheArcaneBrony> is there a way to decrease the scrolling sensitvity ingame?
22:24:07 <TheArcaneBrony> because im dealing with the map zoom being uncontrollable
22:25:36 <LordAro> as in, mouse scroll wheel? or scrolling across the map?
22:25:49 <LordAro> the former sounds like an issue with your mouse
22:26:34 <TheArcaneBrony> mouse scroll wheel
22:26:37 <TheArcaneBrony> im using a touchpad
22:28:18 <LordAro> i'm not aware of any setting
22:28:31 <LordAro> but it wouldn't surprise me if there were one
22:31:05 <TheArcaneBrony> well there is one but changing it doesnt seem to help
22:31:48 <peter1138> If you're using touchpad then you probably want to set "Viewport scroll behaviour" to "move map with RMB" (or maybe LMB)
22:32:00 <peter1138> As the mouse-warp that the other modes do does not work with touchpad.
22:32:58 <peter1138> Or maybe it does, I might be thinking of touch screen :D
22:33:24 <TheArcaneBrony> im thinking of the zoom
22:33:42 <TheArcaneBrony> not the moving camera
22:34:26 <LordAro> i still feel like the touchpad sensitivity is at fault here
22:34:35 <LordAro> you're going to struggle to control a lot of other things
22:35:35 <LordAro> should be able to use +/- to zoom, right? or am i making that up?
22:36:06 <peter1138> Yeah but if the touchpad simulates mouse wheel with two fingers then who knows.
22:36:42 <LordAro> it's challenging to control, but perfectly possible
22:38:07 <TheArcaneBrony> i cant change the touchpad sensitivity in windows
22:39:23 <peter1138> Use Timberwolf's trains in 1880.
22:39:32 <peter1138> SimpleAI has decided, of course, that the best train to use is... a horse.
22:40:14 <peter1138> It's gone for Plateway tracks, instead of normal rail.
22:40:34 <peter1138> I wonder if there's a hidden "use highest indexed rail type"
22:41:06 <peter1138> 2 horses pulling 132 tonnes of grain, poor things.
22:42:56 <FLHerne> TheArcaneBrony: On my touchpad, I find it easier to control scrolling accurately if I move one finger and keep the other one still
22:43:18 <FLHerne> (because the touch point is averaged, so you effectively halve the sensitivity)
22:43:40 <FLHerne> May be dependent on particular touchpad drivers though
22:50:14 <peter1138> Bit early, it's not 2am
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22:57:59 <TheArcaneBrony> that doesn't work for me
22:58:28 <TheArcaneBrony> is there a way to hide buildings?
22:58:58 <TheArcaneBrony> nvm, transparency options
23:00:00 <TheArcaneBrony> GUI scale anywhere?
23:00:21 <peter1138> Main "Game Options" windows
23:00:25 <TheArcaneBrony> im just dumb and not looking, yeah lol
23:01:28 <TheArcaneBrony> hm, setting it to 2x makes everything too big
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23:14:56 <andythenorth> such sleeping time really
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23:29:01 <TheArcaneBrony> feature suggestion: chat history lol
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