IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-03-05
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08:01:12 <andythenorth> curious how that could ever be a thing
08:01:25 * andythenorth proposes deleting the wiki entry
08:44:22 <peter1138> Reimplement NewGRF in 6502.
08:47:40 <andythenorth> is that an XML namespace?
08:54:18 <dwfreed> not sure if trolling or serious
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09:20:50 <LordAro> reimplement newgrf in 68k
09:28:18 <andythenorth> reimplement newgrf as AWS lamda
09:28:34 * andythenorth always gets it wrong
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09:32:44 <_dp_> reimplement newgrf in openttd train logic :p
09:34:54 <andythenorth> reimplement in MPEG 2
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11:55:05 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] silpol opened pull request #28: Add: Polish (pl_PL) and Finnish (fi_FI) translations ( OpenTTD/OpenSFX#3 ) https://git.io/JqJp8
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12:04:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] orudge commented on pull request #28: Add: Polish (pl_PL) and Finnish (fi_FI) translations https://git.io/JqJpA
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13:33:59 <peter1138> I supplemented it with a non-Ginster's Cornish pasty.
13:35:00 <andythenorth> or macaroni cheese
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13:51:37 <andythenorth> seems to have worked
14:12:25 <TrueBrain> how did it make you feel?
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14:30:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It does exist in nmlc, but I have no idea if anyone's used it...
14:30:41 <andythenorth> what does it do? :o
14:33:11 <FLHerne> Well, it's a `while` loop, you can loop on a parameter and increment it or whatever to execute some statements repeatedly
14:33:30 * FLHerne tries to determine what statements can be put in a loop and if those can do anything useful there
14:37:40 <FLHerne> It looks like you can put most statements in it, but most of the useful ones will fail if the loop executes more than once because you can't use the same ID twice :p
14:38:11 <FLHerne> I suspect there was some plan to make this useful
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15:17:00 <andythenorth> or sprite sorter issues
15:18:47 <Timberwolf> Needs a large bar of solid white off to the side for the full effect.
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15:46:54 <andythenorth> someone should turn the bounding boxes on
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15:58:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i hate you.
16:00:31 <Wolf01> I still prefer winmine :P
16:06:09 <peter1138> Rule 3: "Tents are neither orthogonally nor diagonally adjacent one tree;"
16:06:26 <peter1138> Should that not be "... another tent"?
16:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never read the english rules
16:09:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, sounds like that should be "tent"
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16:41:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause that was LordAro
16:41:14 <andythenorth> I deleted tents and trees, annoyed me
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17:01:50 <peter1138> Turns out I already had a version installed, it's in Simon Tatham's puzzles, of course...
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17:27:23 <FLHerne> Timberwolf: nmlc ought to warn you about the solid white :p
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18:48:50 <TrueBrain> "April 1 joke for sure; a game from 2004 will be released on steam April 1. April 1 joke for sure"
18:49:03 <TrueBrain> guess it is easier to comment on Steam than to do some bare minimum research :D :D
18:51:28 <dwfreed> I mean, I would still never release on April 1
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18:52:09 <TrueBrain> same with any Friday the 13th? :P
18:52:30 <andythenorth> what does Reddit think?
18:55:25 <TrueBrain> the problem with that question, it is like dividing by zero
18:55:35 <TrueBrain> every answer becomes valid all at once, while yet none of them really are
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19:00:07 <frosch123> february 29th is a funnier date
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19:00:25 <TrueBrain> releasing once every 4 years ... would make release cycles easier
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19:02:32 <frosch123> there was an elementary school teacher who got annoyed about the children always asking about her birthday, so she tried to wave them off by naming the 29th, because there was none in that year... turns out the children prepared a present for 1st of march :p
19:03:03 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:03:19 <frosch123> but well, i actually know two people born on 29th my now
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19:06:18 <TrueBrain> hmm .. can you change video-drivers while the game is running, or does it need a restart? Wondering about making a "Video" setting GUI that allows you to select video-driver, blitter, etc .. just so people can use non-OpenGL if that works better for them
19:06:32 <frosch123> i was clever, i waited until someone else made the "it's your 10th birthday" joke, just to see how annoyed they are about that reoccuring joke after 40 years
19:06:48 <frosch123> TrueBrain: ottd can switch blitters
19:06:57 <TrueBrain> blitters I know, but complete video drivers?
19:07:04 <frosch123> fullscreen toggle mostly does a full reset of the video driver
19:07:06 <TrueBrain> I guess none have a shutdown routine, not really
19:07:20 <TrueBrain> but it should be doable, I guess
19:07:30 <TrueBrain> pretty sure I won't get that done for 1.11, but maybe good for UI rewrite :P
19:07:43 <michi_cc> Many commercial games solve similar problems with a full restart (possibly in conjunction with some loader).
19:07:58 <TrueBrain> yeah, that needs a secondary loader most of the time
19:08:06 <frosch123> i think even factorio has settings that only take effect after restart
19:08:13 <frosch123> stuff like video memory usage
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19:08:25 <TrueBrain> well, on Steam we can offer settings on startup
19:08:44 <frosch123> also windows users are used to haveing to restart for every silly thing
19:08:45 <TrueBrain> but I think we mostly can change videodrivers, I am just not sure if we have code in all to destroy the main window :P
19:08:57 <nielsm> yeah switching drivers without a full restart isn't going to work right now
19:08:58 <peter1138> So, er, do I get a takeaway, or just continue to eat biscuits?
19:09:03 <frosch123> openttd does not need a reboot for anythign
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19:09:19 <nielsm> I tried implementing switching music driver at runtime a good while back, and had massive problems with it
19:09:25 <TrueBrain> I think it mainly involves: delete main window, and restart video driver
19:09:26 <nielsm> video driver would be even worse
19:09:33 <TrueBrain> nielsm: problems like?
19:09:42 <peter1138> In-game font setting when?
19:10:04 <nielsm> uh I don't even remember, just lots of crashes with invalid pointers
19:10:22 <TrueBrain> video-drivers are now rather clean .. so not sure they would have that problem honestly
19:10:38 <andythenorth> peter1138 deliveroo happened here
19:10:40 <TrueBrain> but ... I guess we just have to try to really know :D
19:10:41 <nielsm> it really didn't like replacing or re-initing the active driver
19:10:57 <TrueBrain> switching from Windows to SDL might be painful
19:11:06 <peter1138> I had a burger last night, though it was an M&S burger.
19:11:09 <TrueBrain> possibly win32 to win32-opengl and back might be much easier
19:11:16 <frosch123> msvc released asan this week, so you can easier hunt dangling pointers now :)
19:11:38 <TrueBrain> are you suggesting I use MSVC for development?! THE INSULT! :P
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19:11:58 <frosch123> you were born in the 80s, so it's possible
19:12:12 <TrueBrain> I am happy with WSL2 :P
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19:12:48 <frosch123> i developed a new strategy for msvc. when the code does not compile, i put the offending code snipped into godbolt, to get a helpful compilation error
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19:12:57 <TrueBrain> anyway, it might be worth adding the ability to switch, just so those AMD GPU users can have a faster game :P
19:13:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: that ... is just sad :P
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19:13:47 <TrueBrain> but yeah, adding fonts and font-sizes might not be a bad idea either tbh
19:14:02 <frosch123> in my 11 years of linux-only i had some popcorn when people argued whether gcc or clang have better diagnostics
19:14:09 <frosch123> then i learned how far behind msvc is :p
19:14:24 <peter1138> There was a UI patch many moons ago. Not from me even.
19:14:42 <TrueBrain> I did the SDL-OpenGL via MSVC (well, in Visual Studio Code, via MSYS, but it was using MSVC compiler in the backend)
19:14:46 <TrueBrain> the errors were pretty clear to me
19:14:49 <TrueBrain> even the template ones
19:14:55 <TrueBrain> that is where GCC loses me ... template errors are the worst
19:15:06 <TrueBrain> like .. the error is on top .. followed by 2000 lines of random blablabla lines
19:15:12 <TrueBrain> I need to scroll back fucking GCC
19:15:29 <TrueBrain> never understood why compilers do not understand we only care about the first error
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19:15:35 <TrueBrain> the rest is most often just a result of that
19:16:01 <TrueBrain> but the intellisense or what you call it in VSCode is rather good for C++
19:16:14 <TrueBrain> warns you in the code already about many issues before you even compile :D
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20:07:01 <andythenorth> circle of life is complete
20:08:01 <TrueBrain> too bad we cannot delegate secrets to forks, as that would allow him to sign the binary via our account :D
20:09:20 <TrueBrain> +macOS, somewhere in that sentence
20:10:17 <TrueBrain> LordAro: would you have some time this weekend to track that weird issue you described about the game stopping for a bit of time every so often?
20:10:28 <TrueBrain> requires a bunch of TICC/TOCC to find out what is going on
20:10:41 <glx> <TrueBrain> but the intellisense or what you call it in VSCode is rather good for C++ <-- it has some issues with mingw headers (and gcc)
20:11:01 <TrueBrain> glx: it is far from perfect; but it picks up .. 70% of my mistakes lately
20:11:05 <TrueBrain> 2 months ago it was like 20%
20:13:42 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i get my bike back tomorrow, so depends entirely on the weather :p
20:14:09 <glx> and I'm talking about MSVC intellisense, but IIRC it's shared with VSCode
20:14:24 <TrueBrain> LordAro: haha, good priorities :D
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20:19:55 <andythenorth> I played enough blitz
20:20:18 <andythenorth> I have like 67% WR today, way above average, it can only get worse if I keep playing :P
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20:51:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] silpol updated pull request #28: Add: Polish (pl_PL) and Finnish (fi_FI) translations https://git.io/JqJp8
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20:53:27 <Soni> does openttd support wasm?
20:56:17 <dwfreed> "the currently selected base graphics set is missing 2 sprites"
20:56:35 <frosch123> they were added last week, release is pending
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21:00:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] silpol updated pull request #28: Add: Polish (pl_PL) and Finnish (fi_FI) translations https://git.io/JqJp8
21:04:00 <Soni> frosch123: no like, for plugins
21:04:16 <dwfreed> it's either all wasm or no wasm
21:05:11 <Soni> ah well, it was worth asking :/
21:05:37 <andythenorth> wasm PR incoming when?
21:05:38 <TrueBrain> dwfreed: nah, that is not true :)
21:05:48 <TrueBrain> we could have made the scripting languages WASM too :P We didn't :D
21:05:53 * andythenorth wonders what exciting plugin vulns we could have
21:06:25 <TrueBrain> lua would have been a better fit
21:07:45 <Soni> lua has exploits, wasm doesn't (yet)
21:07:54 <TrueBrain> that is a weird thing to say
21:08:19 <Soni> kinda hard to have exploits when you have no bindings
21:08:32 <Soni> lua has bytecode loading exploits
21:08:33 <TrueBrain> eeueuuuhhhhhhh .. wuth?
21:08:37 <TrueBrain> that makes little to no sense :)
21:08:42 <Xaroth> What have you been smoking?
21:08:53 <Soni> wasm is just a bytecode format/VM. it doesn't have bindings.
21:10:00 <Soni> WASI is meant to be the bindings of choice for many tasks but it's... not yet finished and no browser is gonna support it. (emscripten provides an WASI snapshot implementation in JS)
21:10:19 <andythenorth> time to port newgrf
21:11:46 <Soni> it's up to the embedder to not read past the wasm memory and stuff, but wasm itself is fully sandboxed
21:12:56 <Soni> anyway, is there such a thing as an OpenTTD-based mars exploration game?
21:18:52 <nielsm> as far as I know, nobody have made (and completed) anything with an actual story based on openttd
21:19:43 <nielsm> assuming you mean something with an authored story that gives objectives to the player, and advances the story when the player completes the objectives
21:20:19 <nielsm> actually why did I reach for "story" there
21:21:09 <nielsm> but look for the Wasteland set of mods
21:21:43 <frosch123> nielsm: "silicon valley" has a "story" :)
21:21:50 <nielsm> it tries to build a post-apocalyptic world with some (implicit) reconstruction goals
21:21:55 <frosch123> or, let's call it a "prologue"
21:22:27 <Soni> frosch123: just because you can exploit things running inside wasm doesn't mean you can exploit things outside of wasm
21:22:35 <Soni> so it does provide a sandbox/security barrier
21:22:42 <Soni> and that's all that matters
21:22:44 <nielsm> Soni: I've aired the idea to completely rework all the modding features of ottd in wasm once or twice before, but it would be a gigantic task
21:22:51 <Soni> don't trust the wasm more than you have to :)
21:23:00 <frosch123> Soni: yes, just as much as a cpu protects your code from accessing your toaster
21:23:23 <Soni> "deleting your in-game currency" is an acceptable failure mode, "ransoming your hard drive" isn't
21:23:38 <TrueBrain> nielsm: always the question what benefit it adds; I wondered the same with moving to lua :)
21:23:49 <frosch123> wasm provides no security within the vm, so it provides no security for add-ons using your openttd as bit-coin miner, or stealing your game-internal passwords, and more
21:23:55 <Xaroth> wasm is not a magical unicorn, Soni.
21:24:16 <Soni> frosch123: the key here is "within the VM"
21:24:32 <Soni> don't shove your passwords into the VM. don't expose networking to the VM.
21:24:42 <frosch123> exactly, but "within the VM" is pointless if you have everythign inside the vm
21:25:31 <Soni> wasm definitely provides the security barrier so misbehaving software can't affect things in the outside world
21:26:20 <Soni> you can't just increase your code's security by running it in wasm, but you can increase it by running wasm in it (i.e. embedding wasm) instead of using a custom bug-ridden implementation of lisp
21:26:20 <Xaroth> They thought that of CPUs as well, yet there have been exploits there too...
21:26:33 <TrueBrain> they said the same about VMWare, XenServer, Hyper-V, .... pretty sure that is just true till someone exploits it :D
21:27:03 <Xaroth> It's not "It's exploit-free", it's "They've not YET found any exploits"
21:27:17 <Soni> TrueBrain: eh, well, Bochs doesn't have unpatchable exploits at least
21:27:32 <Soni> unlike things that rely on the hardware to be patchable
21:27:35 <TrueBrain> that just means people are not trying hard enough :D
21:28:10 <andythenorth> lol, it's a different argument, but I remember how many web-devs said 'but docker containers are secure'
21:28:27 <Soni> well, Bochs is an emulator. you can probably find a 0day or two but you're not gonna require someone to buy a new CPU to fix it
21:28:55 <andythenorth> anyway WASM for newgrf
21:28:56 <TrueBrain> so happy they invented microcode ... in the 80s :P
21:29:20 <Soni> TrueBrain: and yet... [insert spectre, meltdown, friends, etc]
21:29:29 <TrueBrain> and yet ... microcode updates!
21:30:31 <Soni> the best way to sandbox code is to lie about the environment
21:31:08 <Soni> luckily nobody's throwing DRM at wasm yet...
21:34:40 <Soni> (running DRM *in* wasm would be a good idea tho)
21:50:57 <TrueBrain> could you please not? we talked about that andythenorth :P
21:51:21 <frosch123> noone believes you that
21:51:34 <frosch123> TrueBrain: don't believe people on the internet
21:52:05 <andythenorth> so what does maximum height do?
21:52:12 <andythenorth> I want a map of Cornwall
21:52:30 <frosch123> set it to 64, be done with it
21:53:32 <andythenorth> I heard it's too flat
21:53:45 <andythenorth> did the game always return to title screen whilst generating map?
21:53:50 <andythenorth> I don't remember that
21:54:28 <frosch123> no, it shows the map while generating
21:55:17 <frosch123> yeah, there is something weird new
21:55:48 <frosch123> i recently noticed it when loading a game, but assumed it was always like that
21:56:04 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it's not really broken, it's just unusual, and slightly confusing
21:56:18 <TrueBrain> the "what" is not that clear to me :D
21:56:35 <TrueBrain> ah, no, I know what you mean
21:56:41 <frosch123> when you load a game or generate map, ottd will close the load game window/mapgen window
21:56:43 <TrueBrain> the bootstrap fix broke other stuff agian :P
21:56:51 <frosch123> block for a while, and then continue
21:57:05 <TrueBrain> it should freeze the screen on the last you saw
21:57:10 <TrueBrain> but it does 1 more window update :P
21:57:10 <frosch123> it's confusing because there is a split second, when you think it aborted your action
21:57:26 <andythenorth> oh I can't gist an m4v
21:57:40 <TrueBrain> the "prober" fix is to show a new window "loading..", "aborting.." etc I think
21:57:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible https://git.io/JLHah
21:57:43 <TrueBrain> but for now, we lock the screen :D
21:58:10 <TrueBrain> no clue why the code doing that broke again
21:58:14 <frosch123> it may also look fine, if the intro window is hidden
21:58:38 <frosch123> just in case that is easier to achieve :p
21:58:48 <TrueBrain> nah, there was already code taking care of this
21:58:52 <TrueBrain> just need to figure out why it broke again
21:58:52 <andythenorth> hmm alpinist means I don't get industries in the right places
21:58:55 <TrueBrain> I suspect the bootstrap fix
21:59:01 <TrueBrain> will check it out this weekend :)
21:59:36 <TrueBrain> same issue is when aborting a game btw
22:00:41 <andythenorth> towns build tunnels now? :)
22:01:21 <andythenorth> this is cool, it means they extend into nearby valleys
22:01:24 <frosch123> ah, tunnels... i wondered about a combined spec for NewBridges and NewTunnels
22:01:30 <frosch123> tunnels with speed limits
22:02:02 <frosch123> it's weird that tunnels have no speed limits, isn't it?
22:02:38 *** Gustavo6046_ has joined #openttd
22:02:58 <frosch123> so, i considered allowing to define new tunnel types with different length and speed limits
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22:03:40 <frosch123> bridges are not part of road/rails, so imo tunnels shouldn't either
22:04:55 <LordAro> what an odd conversation
22:05:03 <LordAro> OTTD doesn't use lua either
22:05:20 <frosch123> i hate lua :p we had that conversation multiple times
22:06:41 <TrueBrain> is that why I keep bringing it up? :D
22:07:06 <frosch123> i need a bot. when someone says "lua", it replies with "ruby"
22:07:38 <andythenorth> oops I hit fast forward
22:07:47 <TrueBrain> frosch123: NOOOO, that will be evil
22:09:38 <andythenorth> frosch123 does that unpick the NRT tunnels headache? :P
22:10:36 <frosch123> it's a merger of nrt tunnels and someone trying to add old-style-bridge support to nml
22:13:55 <TrueBrain> now you just want to hurt me :'(
22:14:05 <TrueBrain> now that was a scripting language!
22:14:20 <TrueBrain> cleanest embedded language I ever worked with ..
22:14:23 <TrueBrain> Python being the worst :P
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22:19:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: oh, also did you see that newgrf that uses railtype to implement dragable objects :p
22:19:43 <andythenorth> that sounds like a comedic hack
22:21:38 <frosch123> aw, my ipv6 is broken again, content download takes ages again
22:22:30 <nielsm> will C++23 fix your ipv6?
22:23:00 <frosch123> it may add asyncio for properly resolving dns in parallel
22:23:01 <TrueBrain> it is surprising how poorly IPv6 works worldwide still ..
22:23:54 <frosch123> i could reboot my router, but then i am offline in that time :p
22:24:03 <TrueBrain> WHAT TO DO WITH THOSE 2 MINUTES! :P
22:25:40 <frosch123> so clearly people will now request 64k railtypes
22:25:53 <andythenorth> yes that has happened
22:26:02 <andythenorth> it was discussed on discord this morning
22:28:43 <frosch123> they allow building bridges which are covered with ground tiels
22:28:55 <frosch123> so you can probably fake underground rail with them
22:29:25 <_dp_> did anyone implement power lines as tram types already?
22:29:36 <frosch123> which leads to "houses on bridges" or so...
22:36:01 <supermop_Home> houses on log flumes
22:37:29 * andythenorth tries playing FIRS Basic
22:37:35 <andythenorth> not very interesting
22:37:50 * peter1138 playing Trees. Damn it.
22:38:56 <supermop_Home> andythenorth im playing firs arctic basic n a 64x64 map to try to get cute RV pictures
22:39:11 <andythenorth> I'm playing temperate basic on 64x64 to test my attention span
22:39:18 <andythenorth> turns out my attention span is 3 trains
22:39:42 <supermop_Home> i have 0 trains and 1 ship so far
22:39:47 <supermop_Home> all the rest trucks
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22:42:34 <andythenorth> frosch starts a trend
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22:44:11 <supermop_Home> well i just opened a beer
22:44:31 <supermop_Home> but i have a good 5 hours to catch up to you guys
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23:36:25 <supermop_Home> do i open another hazy ipa? or a different hazy ipa? or a winter ipa? or a sour?
23:36:39 <supermop_Home> i don't every really like ipas
continue to next day ⏵
