IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-03-02
⏴ go to previous day
00:01:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened pull request #8794: Feature: Show rail/road/tram NewGRF name in Land Area Information window https://git.io/JthCX
00:02:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8773: Add: Support Zstandard(zstd) savegame compression https://git.io/Jtx6j
00:03:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default https://git.io/JthC5
00:17:32 *** roadt_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
00:21:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8776: Change: Don't decrease vehicle reliability when stopped https://git.io/JthWw
00:28:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8776: Change: Don't decrease vehicle reliability when stopped https://git.io/JthWF
00:32:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default https://git.io/JthlI
00:48:02 *** roadt_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
00:56:45 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8688: Feature: Hide block signal GUI by default https://git.io/Jth8c
01:22:54 *** gelignite has quit IRC (Quit: Stay safe!)
01:33:32 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8794: Feature: Show rail/road/tram NewGRF name in Land Area Information window https://git.io/JthCX
01:48:38 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
01:48:52 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
02:02:44 *** lobster has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
02:03:00 *** lobster has joined #openttd
02:26:19 *** Wormnest has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
03:19:08 *** D-HUND has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
03:35:26 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
03:58:08 *** Wormnest has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
04:32:35 *** floyza[m] has joined #openttd
04:49:26 *** lobster has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
05:04:10 *** Wuzzy has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
05:40:23 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC (Quit: snail_UES_)
07:07:43 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
07:21:43 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
07:25:31 *** didac has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
07:42:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] numanumaa commented on issue #8790: Slowdowns when scrolling on win32-opengl video driver https://git.io/JthtA
08:08:48 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
08:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> when i click on "go to first unread post" and i get a page from 2017, i know i'm in the wrong forum section :p
08:13:14 <andythenorth> that will be simutrans
08:13:46 <andythenorth> these days, if I'm not in one of the 3 graphics subforums, I'm in the wrong forum
08:14:07 <andythenorth> most of forums is a wasteland, that could be generated algorithmically
08:15:37 * andythenorth now trying to find where Eddi was
08:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> hint: the post was by some random guy called "Wolf01" who was excited about trying out NRT features
08:17:13 <Wolf01> I still have to build Venice...
08:17:54 <andythenorth> was it reddit? O_O
08:18:06 <andythenorth> oh p1sim continues :D
08:18:09 <andythenorth> that's interesting
08:19:09 <Wolf01> Shit, I'm really wasted, I was trying to open the browser but it didn't show up, then I alt-tabbed multiple times from mirc to the browser... the browser was in the other monitor
08:20:34 <Eddi|zuHause> next hint: it's in one of the most recently active threads on said forum
08:20:42 <andythenorth> either you have longish covid, or you're just getting older
08:20:49 <andythenorth> Wolf01 that sounds like things I do every day
08:21:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: for me it helps clicking on the window in the task bar, to minimize and reopen it
08:22:06 <Eddi|zuHause> works in about 95% of the cases to figure out which screen the window is on
08:22:19 <Eddi|zuHause> ... except when there's a really similar window right behind it
08:22:44 <Wolf01> Wtf I did it again... am I stupid?
08:22:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes (but probably unrelated :p)
08:24:35 <Wolf01> Back to the interesting things: I didn't really follow the latest changes, the pathfinding problem with different road speed limits has been solved?
08:24:57 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't followed that either
08:25:38 <Eddi|zuHause> github is being mean to me, constantly requesting to reconfirm my email address
08:26:44 <Wolf01> Github usually mauls me with "incompatible browser" or refuses to load at all, even "the page tried to do too many redirects"
08:27:14 <Wolf01> It's not my fault if I use edge classic on phone... I don't have many alternatives
08:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a too aggressive noscript
08:27:58 <Wolf01> Nah, no plugins at all, it doesn't support them
08:28:57 <Wolf01> Usually the redirects thing happen when I open a shortlink from here
08:29:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also a possibility of "not aggressive enough noscript" :p
08:30:33 <Wolf01> I just want an adblock, I don't like the web as it really is :P
08:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i use two browsers. one with javascript completely disabled, and one for weird websites.
08:32:43 <Wolf01> Then I installed the full windows 10 for arm on my other Lumia and had a powerful* pc, at the cost of 1 hour of battery (total capacity), so I'm able to browse the web with a modern browser too
08:33:20 <Wolf01> *powerful... 3GB of ram and a crippled cpu is a bit frustrating
08:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> is there an "erratic bird"?
08:34:58 <Wolf01> <Wolf01> Back to the interesting things: I didn't really follow the latest changes, the pathfinding problem with different road speed limits has been solved? <- it seem to be patched, yay
08:37:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Rau117 opened issue #8797: Wrong distance between signals with «Drag signal distance» https://git.io/JthDs
08:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause> my first thought: typical "fix MY cornercase" issue with not a single thought spent on any other corner cases
08:41:54 <Wolf01> Get rid of diagonal tracks, that's the solution, roads don't have this problem (yet)
08:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> well. it MIGHT be valid. but it's not obvious WHY
08:43:54 <Wolf01> Or study your train network like a circuit board, so any track is the same lenght, you may have to do some weird turns in little space
08:44:41 *** andythenorth has quit IRC (Quit: andythenorth)
08:46:15 <Wolf01> I think openttdcoop games, are a bit special, too much micromanagement of lenghts, speeds, and overcrowding
08:46:26 <Wolf01> Also remove the first comma
09:43:01 <Timberwolf> OpenTTDCoop is like research science compared to normal work :)
09:45:51 <Timberwolf> Takes a special kind of mind to do it, but the discoveries filter through and improve things for all of us.
09:46:37 <Wolf01> It's like F1 to normal cars improvements
09:52:48 <Wolf01> Hmmm why is so difficult finding coherent results on the web? Oh wait, it's bing...
09:53:45 <Wolf01> Keywords in "or" and not even sorted by relevance
09:56:14 <LordAro> Wolf01: i did fix road pathfinding, indeed :)
09:57:00 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: i agree with you, but why are diagonal tracks ignored in the way that they are?
09:57:24 <Wolf01> I don't think they are ignored, but rounded down
09:57:29 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i think it's a rounding error
09:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> rounding up instead of down
09:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> might cause issues elsewhere if changed
09:58:09 <Wolf01> Up? I might have some problems counting then :P
09:58:49 <Wolf01> Oh yes, you need to round up to get signal on every diagonal tile
09:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: doesn't matter which one
09:59:13 <Wolf01> Yup, it's wrong on both
09:59:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, you only need to round on diagonal tiles, if the next tile isn't also a diagonal tile
09:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need to look ahead to make a decision
10:00:00 <_dp_> yeah, it's kinda annoyng that train follows the other just fine but then suddenly stops on diagonal begause signal gap is larger
10:00:27 <LordAro> i don't think it'd be particularly controversial to fix
10:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a second problem, where trains on diagonals actually speed up
10:00:34 <peter1138> Using a cross join in SQL always feels wrong...
10:00:35 <LordAro> it's not going to break existing things
10:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so even if signal gap is the same, they will still stop
10:03:27 <peter1138> What's all this talk of diagonals?
10:04:06 <peter1138> Oh, well that's because diagonals are a different length, innit
10:04:08 <LordAro> also i definitely read that as "social distancing" about 3 times before it made sense
10:04:22 <peter1138> Main issue is the train gets longer...
10:05:23 <Wolf01> I think the main issue is that diagonal trains don't seem to match the track lenght
10:05:45 <Wolf01> Maybe it's just graphically
10:05:51 <_dp_> hm, actually, yeah, since train change speed diagonal gap seems fine, may be it's just on turns there is a larger gap
10:05:51 <peter1138> When your partner buys you a fancy-ass box of expensive biscuits, but you eat them all in 4 days because they are just biscuits...
10:06:19 <LordAro> 4 days is some good self control
10:06:56 <Wolf01> I know the feel with biscuits, I have the same problems with the Danish butter cookies... one floor at day
10:22:11 <_dp_> yep, signal placer only counts tiles but subtile signal position is different resulting in inconsistent gaps
10:24:23 <_dp_> or, wait, is subtile pos of signal always 0? so it's logically between tiles?
10:27:40 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
10:31:45 <Timberwolf> Wolf01: Because web search has gone from "look at the awesome things our server hardware can do, don't you want to buy one?" to "guess there's no useful results except the ones from our advertisers, what're you gonna do eh?"
10:33:24 <Wolf01> Nah, I don't even get purchase links, I look for specific things, I get too much pinterest instead, so -pinterest is mandatory in my searches
10:36:24 <Timberwolf> Search really needs a Steve Jobs vs. Flash moment.
10:37:23 <Timberwolf> One opinionated and obstinate executive who goes, "actually I'm just gonna ban Pinterest from my search engine, because I don't like them constantly bait-and-switching users with content"
10:38:02 <Wolf01> About semver, we should really drop the major version, and break everything on some version like 56.x (as firefox did) where it should really needed a bump on the major version
10:38:25 <Timberwolf> No attempt to be fair or impartial, just straight up, "I was browsing and they gave me an obnoxious cookie dialogue, no indexing for you"
10:39:21 <Wolf01> I ban pinterest because it forces me to subscribe to see it, and even after subscribing I just only see more images without any other improvement
10:39:42 <Timberwolf> Maybe search engine with curated blacklists?
10:40:36 <_dp_> what's the right word for non-diagonal track btw? orthogonal?
10:41:04 <Wolf01> No, just an automatic "exclude these sites" checklist would be enough, like the microsoft news app which allows you to hide some newspapers you don't want
10:41:27 <Timberwolf> The problem is there are thousands.
10:41:30 <Wolf01> _dp_ yes, I suspect it is :P
10:41:45 <Timberwolf> Like all those sites which run a text gen AI on press releases or Wikipedia articles.
10:42:02 <LordAro> _dp_: not technically correct, but i'd go with "straight"
10:42:28 <Wolf01> But diagonal tracks are straight too
10:59:50 <LordAro> which cannot be the case
11:01:03 <LordAro> but that didn't affect graphics frame rate?
11:01:10 <LordAro> or am i misremembering
11:02:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8797: Wrong distance between signals with «Drag signal distance» https://git.io/JthDs
11:02:46 <peter1138> You're misremembering.
11:19:08 <_dp_> btw, it's so weird that diagonal signals are not equally spaced visually
11:19:16 <_dp_> why not just center the sprite?
11:21:05 <LordAro> something to do with making them look good side by side?
11:21:24 <Wolf01> What if you have another track in the other half tile? If they are centered they'll overlap
11:21:35 <LordAro> the answer is probably blame CS
11:22:43 *** rptr_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
11:23:21 <_dp_> is it bad if they overlap?
11:25:31 <andythenorth> shall we pivot to search?
11:26:00 <peter1138> I hate writing pivot queries. More than using cross join.
11:29:33 <Wolf01> I sometimes forget that they exist... and would be helpful on some situations
11:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm oldschool. i only ever write select a,b from x where y
11:30:05 <Wolf01> I had to make a report with a pivot from the report engine
11:31:44 <Wolf01> The first paragraph seem to read about you, andy :P
11:32:53 <Wolf01> Like every other math problem
11:33:36 <Wolf01> Like I hate to make my 3D game camera to work right with rotations
11:34:00 <Wolf01> "I simply don't get it"
11:34:14 <andythenorth> 2048 just just two things
11:34:25 <andythenorth> #1 the rule of 'down and right' for nearly all moves
11:34:42 <andythenorth> #2 not fucking up by making that move when it's wrong
11:34:45 <Wolf01> Yeah, I still don't get it
11:34:58 <andythenorth> the game is so repetitive that it's easy to quickly do #1 when it should be #2
11:35:17 <andythenorth> you basically just playing against your own attention span
11:35:25 <andythenorth> there is no skill to the game maths
11:36:03 <andythenorth> the numbers could just be substituted with colours, and call it 'make rainbow tiles'
11:36:08 <LordAro> speaking of, i need a new mildly brain-stimulating mobile game, i completed tents & trees
11:36:21 <LordAro> fell back to candy crush, which is just soul destroying
11:36:37 <andythenorth> oh tents and trees looks so BBC basic retro
11:36:40 <Wolf01> It's like the z-cube puzzle I'm trying to solve for ages, I always end up with patterns I know to make a full floor, which can't work
11:37:25 <peter1138> How is this supplier generating a delivery note, with a delivery time, but the contents of the delivery are... nothing?
11:38:02 <andythenorth> LordAro who made the version of T&T you're playing?
11:38:19 * andythenorth found several on iOS app store
11:40:52 <LordAro> andythenorth: Forzax Games
11:42:53 <peter1138> Nothing like a Beeb game.
11:43:43 <andythenorth> Make Chocks Away Great Again
11:44:54 <peter1138> That was not a Beeb game :/
11:45:13 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
12:08:42 <_dp_> wait, how did 90 degree turns still survive?
12:10:26 <_dp_> legacy one thing defaults another :p
12:11:01 <_dp_> Oh, they somehow were not in #8393...
12:11:27 <_dp_> mb we should do another round xD
12:12:21 <andythenorth> and because everybody has their own version of that XKCD
12:12:31 <andythenorth> I used to turn off 90 degree turns 'because realism'
12:12:44 <andythenorth> but I turned them back on a few years ago, because 'FML, gameplay'
12:12:50 <peter1138> I turn it off because pathfinder.
12:13:03 <_dp_> 90 deg + breakdowns = gg
12:13:24 <peter1138> Breakdowns are an important gameplay element.
12:13:49 <andythenorth> when we can have 'send to depot' or 'send for servicing' that doesn't route 8 TL trains into 5 TL stations, then deadlock
12:13:54 <andythenorth> I might change my argument
12:15:18 <_dp_> breakdowns are meh but with 90 deg it's a total chaos
12:15:42 <_dp_> because trains can turn freaking everywhere
12:16:53 <andythenorth> quite cool though
12:17:03 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC ()
12:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause> did we split off 90° for ships? because that makes no sense
12:21:32 <peter1138> It was remove for ships
12:21:49 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: turning off 90° by default would probably confuse some people, whereas turning them on by default at most annoys some people
12:22:32 <andythenorth> we split off 90 deg for ships because it doesn't work
12:22:47 <andythenorth> so it wasn't _entirely_ nonsense
12:25:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the person in the lower picture will probably be TrueBrain ;)
12:26:31 <andythenorth> I think it's a pretty accurate picture of michi_cc
12:26:37 * andythenorth may be telling untruths
12:26:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the picture on top is us at the r20k party
12:27:51 <andythenorth> I did host an open source sprint in my building once
12:27:56 <andythenorth> it looked like the cartoon
12:28:15 <andythenorth> except that everybody was just complaining about the wifi
12:28:24 <Eddi|zuHause> well, we made a release that day
12:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: that page is empty for me
12:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> no. it loaded the 3rd time :p
12:32:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but that doesn't really prove anything. i'd say the kind of people that would be confused by it being off would be less likely to post anything.
12:32:52 <_dp_> it does prove that having them on confuses some people :p
12:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, these people sound more annoyed than confused to me
12:40:01 <andythenorth> they're just children
12:40:07 <andythenorth> children sound constantly annoyed
12:40:19 <andythenorth> they learn the tone of voice from their parents, who *are* constantly annoyed
12:42:52 <_dp_> problem with 90deg+breakdowns is that they emphasize the worst parts of each other
12:43:08 <_dp_> trains get more options to get lost and start turning where no one expected them to
12:44:02 <andythenorth> if you have breakdowns on, you're also using forced servicing (in one of the two available designs)?
12:44:11 <peter1138> Special occasion, I've got a salad for lunch...
12:44:22 <andythenorth> I had vegemite on toast
12:44:29 <peter1138> No, I don't usually force servicing.
12:44:37 <andythenorth> I have been eating cheese on toast since July, got bored
12:44:44 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: yeah, but there's like a dozen steps on the learning curve because that even becomes a problem
12:44:46 <peter1138> I've got a marmite hot cross bun I'll have later
12:44:51 <andythenorth> maybe I have a salad snack
12:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: like, for a train to even have any options at all you must have a basic understanding of junctions and signals
12:47:06 <Eddi|zuHause> for non-90deg turns to bite you in the face there's way fewer requirements
12:56:29 <peter1138> Seems like a bad idea to me.
13:04:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, what would you need -f for?
13:05:03 <LordAro> so that make clean doesn't fail if there's files that don't exist
13:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you add - in the makefile to make it ignore fails, and 2>/dev/null to hide the message
13:11:07 <peter1138> It already has - to ignore it the status.
13:16:18 <LordAro> make internally uses rm -f to clean up its intermediate files
13:16:26 <LordAro> it's not particularly unreasonable
13:16:50 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, what would you need -f for? <- to make sure you delete the root folder of the server's data partition because somewhat a cd to the working folder failed
13:17:02 <Wolf01> (been there, done that)
13:17:29 <LordAro> that can't happen here, they're all defined variables within the makefile
13:19:02 <Wolf01> <LordAro> that can't happen here, <- I believe it, but "can't" in IT is a relative word
13:19:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that's like calling a ship unsinkable.
13:21:03 <LordAro> yes, but someone would have to monumentally screw up in multiple ways for it to delete anything outside the checkout
13:21:29 <Wolf01> That day you get 0.7+0.3 = 0.9 you'll format the drive with make clean :P
13:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and never in history did multiple people screw up monumentally at the same time
13:35:02 <supermop_Home> marmite hot cross bun?
13:35:10 <Wolf01> Ok, stupid confirmed: I was browsing 9gag (as usual), opened a new tab and clicked on 9gag shortcut
13:35:26 <supermop_Home> hxb are typically fairly sweet no?
13:44:39 <peter1138> A fruit one is, yeah.
13:45:36 <peter1138> LordAro, it's better to not have the -f, especially if it's just to avoid a warning message.
13:45:47 <supermop_Home> the world is a wonderous place i guess
13:46:07 <supermop_Home> ugh AutoCAD license check time out
13:47:27 <peter1138> Jam Doughnut Wrapped £44256.00. I think someone broke their Excel...
13:47:38 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
13:47:54 <supermop_Home> Wolf01 pinterest is my nightmare
13:48:34 <supermop_Home> as I've transitioned to more interior design than architecture, I've found it harder and harder to avoid
13:49:20 <supermop_Home> and yeah, you have to sign up, then you still don't get any meaningful images or information
13:50:28 <supermop_Home> very often i am looking for an example image of a very specific type of custom store front,
13:55:25 <supermop_Home> somehow i am in a sector of the industry where clients and design directors both seem to not believe in drawings, renderings, or even product photos from manufacturers
13:55:52 <supermop_Home> and only are convince by the same handfuls of images they see on pinterest
13:57:18 <supermop_Home> regardless of whether the thing on pinterest is such mundane décor you really don't need a designer involved, or if it is so unique as to be impossible for the project budget (hence why it was noteworthy enough to become a widely shared image)
13:58:14 <supermop_Home> if you want to look up unique coffee shop details you'll always see the same 4 cafes in Tokyo and Melbourne,
13:58:27 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
13:58:52 *** Smedles has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
14:02:54 <supermop_Home> like over the past week i just designed a custom steel storefront, with wood insets
14:03:37 <supermop_Home> at the direction of studio director
14:04:02 <supermop_Home> and today my task is to find 'inspiration images' to show of it
14:04:54 <supermop_Home> like we were already inspired, we drew the thing... and i have no idea if or where someone has built a similar storefront before...
14:08:12 <_dp_> hm, block signals allow higher train density than pbs
14:08:27 <Wuzzy> The OpenSFX description needs to be re-translated now.
14:08:32 <Wolf01> <supermop_Home> and today my task is to find 'inspiration images' to show of it <- an old coworker was spotted by our boss browsing gay p*rn images: "what are you doing?" "inspiration"... he was doing it so he could photoshop the face of another coworker :DDDD
14:09:12 <_dp_> I have a train following another closely and if I change block to pbs it stops
14:10:47 *** Smedles has joined #openttd
14:11:23 <Wolf01> _dp_ yes, I really would like if PBS has a one block lookahead and regulate the speed to reduce stops, depending on which weight multiplier you set you can disrupt the line capacity by adding just one train too much as trains stop instantly but need time to accelerate
14:11:43 <supermop_Home> honestly i would be better served by just a catalog of Aesop shop designs: "Do you want to copy this detail, which you can't afford, or this detail - which you also can't afford?"
14:12:05 <_dp_> Wolf01, yeah, would be nice but that's a different issue
14:23:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenMSX] orudge commented on pull request #7: Replace outdated Mercurial stuff, update README https://git.io/JtjOM
14:25:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8791: Fix #8774: Black screenshots when using 40bpp-blitter. https://git.io/JtjOA
14:27:48 <TrueBrain> LordAro: guess we should stop accepting an endless stream of currency PRs, and find a proper solution for that :D
14:27:58 <TrueBrain> I believe we only used to allow 1 currency per language we had
14:28:08 <TrueBrain> just to avoid people creating patches for the weirdest currencies
14:28:45 <TrueBrain> openttd.cfg already has custom currencies, not?
14:30:06 <_dp_> throw out everything but gbp :p
14:36:04 <peter1138> There was a policy once of not adding any more because you can just do it with a custom setting.
14:37:02 <TrueBrain> the only true solution is making a webservice where a client can fetch a full list of all currencies with that accurate conversion, ofc
14:39:50 <peter1138> Historical rates over time, yes yes :)
14:40:04 <peter1138> What currency should be used if starting a game in 1066?
14:49:22 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd
15:06:23 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8798: No "ERROR: " prefix in error message for "content select all" https://git.io/JtjZF
15:23:08 <TrueBrain> w00p, I triggered someone's OCD!
16:01:14 <Timberwolf> TrueBrain: I was thinking that the other night, currency feels like a really easy thing to define some sort of newgrf spec for.
16:02:02 <LordAro> newgrf for currency seems like overkill
16:02:30 <Timberwolf> It is like one action defining a name, a code and an exchange rate :)
16:02:39 * peter1138 listens to China Radio International.
16:02:42 <LordAro> given it's literally "factor", and "date it converts to euro"
16:02:49 <andythenorth> newgrf for taxonomies
16:03:23 <peter1138> Does it need a state-machine?
16:05:21 <Timberwolf> Tie it in to the landscape generator, use a noise channel to delineate different "countries" in which you have to purchase things using the appropriate currency.
16:05:31 <Timberwolf> Economic activity in each country alters the exchange rate.
16:07:44 <_dp_> I liked the bitcoin idea
16:07:51 <_dp_> change exchange rate randomly every month
16:08:57 <_dp_> though bitcoin being worth more than a pound would be a problem
16:09:25 *** Flygon has quit IRC (Quit: A toaster's basically a soldering iron designed to toast bread)
16:12:23 <_dp_> haha, found a bug: changing exchange rate during the game changes the amount of money company has :p
16:13:20 <_dp_> money is fixed in gpb, so when you change rate it changes the amount in whatever currency you use
16:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not a bug
16:16:16 <nielsm> so if you make a custom currency with high exchange rate against GBP and then modify the exchange rate while using that currency then you suddenly have billions?
16:17:40 <nielsm> can't reproduce (or need better instructions) in 1.10.3
16:17:52 <_dp_> it's not a bug in a sense that what you really hold is gbp so changing rate is only visual
16:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine your bank money is in petrodollars. if your local currency loses value, you can exchange the petrodollars into more of your own currency
16:18:33 <_dp_> but it looks weird as it displays money in custom currency, so you'd assume you hold it in that currency
16:19:08 <TrueBrain> Solution: don't allow changing it during a game :p
16:19:44 <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: if I knew how to make changes to NewGRF spec, I would agree with you :D
16:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: in various phases of € introduction, banks had already switched the accounts to € while still showing it as DM
16:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> ... to the customers
16:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, it's still not a bug
16:30:42 <peter1138> TrueBrain, it's easy, you just write some hex digits and... stuff happens.
16:31:18 <andythenorth> spec is easy, docs are hard
16:31:40 * andythenorth wonders if that's a quote from something
16:33:38 *** rptr_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
16:33:49 <_dp_> hm, last thing I remember I was deploying website on a server... so how did I end up checking currencies in openttd?
16:56:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: looks like someone was bored and had some spare office supplies
16:58:29 <andythenorth> hmm tents vs trees is quite...annoying :)
17:01:30 <LordAro> you start to recognise patterns
17:01:54 <andythenorth> the learning curve is quite....
17:02:00 <andythenorth> a 6x6 grid is trivial
17:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> do i want to know what that is?
17:12:03 *** luaduck has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
17:23:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8088: Number of towns is silently limited if town name generator runs out of names https://git.io/JfvNr
17:32:18 *** Progman has joined #openttd
17:34:51 *** luaduck has joined #openttd
17:41:44 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
17:45:22 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd
17:49:45 <_dp_> what's the good way to do two-level menus on a website?
17:52:09 <andythenorth> there is no good way
17:52:17 <andythenorth> the current winning convention is just drop down menus
18:01:37 <_dp_> but with dropdowns active subitem is not visible
18:02:16 <_dp_> I guess I could add a navbar below
18:02:30 <andythenorth> there is no great solution
18:02:37 <andythenorth> active subitems are over-rated
18:02:40 <_dp_> or even navbar instead of the second level...
18:03:00 <andythenorth> they rarely fit on small viewports, and generally there should be a h1 for the page similar to the navigation item
18:03:24 <_dp_> yeah, I kinda wanted to avoid h1
18:03:24 <andythenorth> web is a bit of a mess these days
18:04:15 <_dp_> still have it in some placess actually
18:04:42 <andythenorth> semantically h1 is simplest
18:04:53 <andythenorth> it will produce fewest reports from accessibility audits
18:05:02 <andythenorth> you can use h2 as main page heading, it's 'legal' html
18:05:16 <andythenorth> I doubt these are concerns for this page :P
18:07:07 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
18:10:27 <_dp_> yeah, guess I'll switch do dropdowns, this hover menu has no chance on mobile anyway (not that I rly care)
18:10:54 <_dp_> I just liked how it fit :)
18:10:57 *** Speedy` has quit IRC (Read error: No route to host)
18:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the biggest mess of the web in recent years is the cookie acceptance overlays where you need to click 3 buttons to not sell your soul to the devil
18:36:25 <andythenorth> but you are now so much safer, right?
18:36:28 <andythenorth> and better informed?
18:36:48 <andythenorth> or as my kids and wife tell me, that's just the 'accept all' button you have to click to get the page
18:37:00 <andythenorth> well played GDPR and PECR
18:37:15 <andythenorth> big tech managed to nerf that privacy regulation pretty well
18:37:27 <andythenorth> now they have _explicit consent_ to mine your data
18:37:54 <andythenorth> it's like a case study in good intentions leading to absolutely the worst possible outcome
18:38:40 <frosch123> some sites cleaned up their cookie mess. so if there is a competing site without that cookie stuff, not having that popup is an advantage
18:39:36 <LordAro> we were able to get rid of ours for our new website
18:39:44 <LordAro> then marketing insisted on google analytics
18:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and then i see people going like "ah whatever. what would they do with MY data anyway."
18:40:10 <andythenorth> fortunately I am marketing
18:40:20 <andythenorth> I got rid of GA, and now I understand my web traffic again
18:40:24 <frosch123> firefox just released the cookie separation by top-level site
18:40:29 <andythenorth> GA has a singular purpose: sell ads
18:40:32 <frosch123> no idea how good it works
18:41:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause exactly, so now there is...informed consumer consent
18:41:25 <LordAro> andythenorth: i've suggested a couple of alternatives, but nah... they like google too much
18:41:53 <andythenorth> that's funny, it's completely unusable
18:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: just generate plausible random data, and tell them it's from google
18:42:49 <glx> my brother is still fighting with SameSite=None
18:42:52 <andythenorth> LordAro so how many visitors don't opt in to GA tracking? :)
18:43:26 <andythenorth> "opt-in analytics: such valid data"
18:44:25 <LordAro> andythenorth: we fought pretty hard to keep the "No thanks" button alongside the "Accept"
18:44:44 <andythenorth> shouldn't be hard, it's a legal requirement
18:44:46 <LordAro> marketing were quite pissy about that, but the MD had our backs
18:44:57 <LordAro> that was our argument
18:44:58 <andythenorth> "or an equivalent requirement"
18:45:15 <LordAro> they kept pointing at all the sites that don't do it properly as an attempt to justify it
18:45:25 <andythenorth> I use Matomo (piwik) with privacy settings turned up
18:45:32 <andythenorth> it's illegal, but I'm hoping to be a test case
18:45:39 <LordAro> and then i removed their permissions to alter the cookie banner and left it at that
18:47:31 <TrueBrain> or just do server-side analytics
18:47:42 <andythenorth> records terminal equipment meta-data, e.g. screen size, browser etc
18:47:42 <TrueBrain> I mean ... all this crap with needing cookies for analytics is just horse-crap
18:47:46 <andythenorth> which violates PECR
18:48:33 <andythenorth> I would like to see the court case
18:51:55 <andythenorth> ok so...does anyone use Slack?
18:51:59 <andythenorth> or did they hype fail?
18:52:03 * andythenorth hasn't been keeping up
18:56:13 <frosch123> everyone wants everyone to use their platform
18:56:20 <frosch123> in the end it will be irc and email again :)
18:56:31 * andythenorth might have to abandon irc though
18:56:36 <andythenorth> at least for work
18:57:01 <andythenorth> Discord is really really nice, as long as you don't read the CVEs
18:57:04 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:57:25 <frosch123> do you mean you leaving here while working, or do you use irc with your minions?
18:58:25 <andythenorth> if there was a business Discord, I'd switch
18:58:49 <andythenorth> but I have never tried Slack, so maybe I should discard my irrational dislike of Slack
18:59:28 *** gelignite has quit IRC (Quit: Stay safe!)
19:06:52 <Timberwolf> Slack's been slowly broken in the name of "enterprise" imo.
19:07:51 <Timberwolf> It's lost the USP which was as "IRC for business", now it's the same mess of everything hidden in threads or DMs and people constantly tagging you as any other corporate IM.
19:15:54 <andythenorth> I've been influenced against due to too many stories of people using it like email
19:16:09 <andythenorth> there's a particular benefit to disposable async
19:16:25 <andythenorth> which is the upside of irc
19:17:01 <andythenorth> mostly I like discord for editable messages, and inline images
19:18:08 <andythenorth> and the reactions
19:18:26 <Timberwolf> Slack used to have a nice compromise where it was used as disposable async, but also searchable so you could go back later and work out why decisions were made.
19:19:19 <Timberwolf> I think threads killed it, that was the point where people started saying, "this channel is too busy, can you put it in a thread"
19:19:42 <Wolf01> I would like if mirc gets some 2015+, it's stuck to 1995
19:19:49 <Timberwolf> Although maybe that's just the difference between using it as an early adopter, and it being a mainstream tool?
19:21:45 <Wolf01> I've tried many other irc apps, but no one is customisable like mirc, others don't even have all the irc features, and I don't think I've found one which show images yet
19:22:54 <andythenorth> my irc client can inline images for certain links
19:23:09 <andythenorth> but it comes with a 'omg this leaks privacy' due diligence warning
19:23:34 <andythenorth> on anything I think
19:24:35 <Wolf01> Even mirc is not free, but just delete the registry key... it has a handy "run on startup" script
19:26:53 <Wolf01> Ad I didn't buy the license only because it's not perpetual
19:30:44 <Wolf01> I could try the latest version, this one is a bit old, I've updated because of a CVE last time
19:34:57 <_dp_> javascript frameworks documentation: "here's the step-by step tutorial with instant preview"
19:35:07 <_dp_> rust framework documentation: "Start learning about the framework by helping us improve our documentation."
19:36:44 <Timberwolf> My current bugbear is Terraform: "the example shown does not build the infrastructure it claims to. The property you need is not listed, you can find it by reading the source code."
19:37:40 <Timberwolf> "By the way, the search terms you will use in attempting to solve this problem are exactly the same as the ones involved in some simple beginner error, which has 90,000 StackOverflow questions and tech blogs devoted to it"
19:43:54 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
19:55:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8791: Fix #8774: Black screenshots when using 40bpp-blitter. https://git.io/Jthqb
19:55:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc closed issue #8774: Some screenshot buttons produce all-black screenshots https://git.io/JtxSC
19:56:11 <FLHerne> I filed a Qt bug report once: "<feature> doesn't work as documented" -> "resolved: we have removed the documentation"
20:00:08 <_dp_> can we do that for newgrfs? ;)
20:01:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #195: Fix: some metadata for a new folder called opensfx-nightlies https://git.io/Jtj6q
20:03:25 <LordAro> i mean they also obsoleted the feature at the same time
20:04:31 <supermop_Home> andythenorth we use slack
20:05:00 <supermop_Home> it went from being pretty rare in the design world a couple years ago to ubiquitous now
20:08:27 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:12:08 <glx> didn't we fixed a GS or AI bug like that ?
20:13:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] glx22 approved pull request #195: Fix: some metadata for a new folder called opensfx-nightlies https://git.io/JtjiG
20:14:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #195: Fix: some metadata for a new folder called opensfx-nightlies https://git.io/Jtj6q
21:04:59 *** jottyfan has quit IRC (Quit: jottyfan)
21:08:45 <andythenorth> peter1138 best and worst thing ever
21:24:09 *** Samu has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
21:36:48 *** frosch123 has quit IRC (Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn)
21:37:33 *** Taede has quit IRC (Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into)
21:58:02 *** Wormnest has quit IRC (resistance.oftc.net larich.oftc.net)
21:58:02 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC (resistance.oftc.net larich.oftc.net)
21:58:15 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd
21:58:26 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
22:03:24 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC ()
22:06:06 *** andythenorth has quit IRC (Quit: andythenorth)
22:19:00 *** erle- has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
22:22:42 *** Samu has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
22:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> <_dp_> can we do that for newgrfs? ;) <-- no because we kinda promised that old grfs continue to work
22:43:31 *** nielsm has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
23:00:47 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC (Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.)
23:43:43 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
23:46:07 *** Tirili has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
23:50:05 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:51:13 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
23:53:14 *** gnu_jj has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
continue to next day ⏵
