IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-02-19
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00:00:04 <LordAro> i was thinking of the Order*Flags, because i touched them recently
00:00:19 <LordAro> though they're not doing any bitshifting of other enum values, i suppose
00:00:29 <TrueBrain> LordAro: tnx for review, and yeah, I will deduplicate before merging
00:00:40 <TrueBrain> This just became really silly
00:03:57 <_dp_> and he checks hasbit and does clrbit without even using the result
00:05:26 <_dp_> also kinda hard to say what's the right approach here since openttd doesn't have widgeds and hotkeys mixed anywhere
00:05:38 <_dp_> cmclient has but I'm not very fond of it either
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00:15:57 <glx> red buttons and confirmation checkbox :)
00:16:11 <TrueBrain> They are meant to be pressed
00:53:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/JtyYt
00:53:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/JtyYq
00:53:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/JtyYY
00:53:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/JtyYG
00:54:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/JtyYZ
00:54:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac updated pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/Jts3i
00:55:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/JtyYW
00:56:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/JtyY8
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09:26:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/JtyzG
09:26:18 <TrueBrain> not the first time he makes us read: yes, ok, sure, done, fixed, ... :P :D
09:26:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8603: Feature: Object class selection string filtering https://git.io/Jts3i
09:31:55 <TrueBrain> now, how the fuck do I merge those video drivers .. they are slightly different enough for that to be tricky :P
09:39:43 <TrueBrain> LordAro: what would you prefer .. that I make a new PR out of merging the video drivers (given you already reviewed the 60fps PR), or that I attach it to that PR?
09:39:57 <TrueBrain> I was thinking of doing that in the PR already, but it is far less trivial than I expected :P
09:40:15 <TrueBrain> so just a sanity check :D
09:40:46 <andythenorth> I wish zsh ran at 60fps for tab auto-complete :P
09:40:58 <andythenorth> it's always just a bit behind, and slower than bash was
09:41:53 <LordAro> TrueBrain: maybe another PR indeed
09:42:30 <TrueBrain> the main issue is that we have 1 driver where the mainloop is unrolled ..
09:42:37 <TrueBrain> you already disliked that when the PR was there
09:42:40 <TrueBrain> and now I dislike it too :D
09:43:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8680: Feature: configurable refresh-rate and change default to 60fps https://git.io/Jt1ur
09:46:37 <TrueBrain> let the issue rain in :P
09:47:33 <andythenorth> nightly builds when? :P
09:47:49 <TrueBrain> you do your local math
09:47:55 <TrueBrain> in 9 hours, basically
09:49:17 <_dp_> so they're eveningly builds then? :p
09:51:28 <TrueBrain> I find all these small bugs
09:51:36 <TrueBrain> when you press shift in debug builds to fastforward
09:51:42 <TrueBrain> it always starts 1 tick after you pressed it
09:51:46 <TrueBrain> because .. weird control logic
09:56:46 <andythenorth> TB forum post maybe?
09:56:57 <andythenorth> I am so winning at community relations currently
09:57:30 <TrueBrain> meh .. maybe after the nightly
09:57:40 <TrueBrain> oh-oh .. it seems I introduced a build-error with allegro
09:57:47 <TrueBrain> which is weird, as I am sure I fixed that one
09:58:33 <TrueBrain> oops .. seems I forgot to push :(
09:58:45 <TrueBrain> I will fix that in a sec :)
09:59:05 <TrueBrain> our CI is not building allegro :P
09:59:10 <TrueBrain> so I might as well do that
10:04:20 <TrueBrain> we add libsdl1.2 and libsdl2 as deps for the CI
10:04:25 <TrueBrain> but CMake only always picks either one
10:05:27 <TrueBrain> still no clue what to do with SDL1 honestly
10:06:31 <andythenorth> I can't decide if LC is mad or not
10:06:58 <andythenorth> yet another post of rambling bug reports mixed in with passive insults
10:07:09 <andythenorth> I tried testing some of the reported bugs, but I can't repro
10:07:14 <andythenorth> getting a bit old
10:07:22 <andythenorth> "yes I know I could just ignore"
10:07:44 <andythenorth> but there is a high chance of TGP being oddly broken...because TGP, so I have to check
10:07:49 <TrueBrain> I like that he couldn't win it on GitHub, so he went to the forums :)
10:08:09 <andythenorth> I don't like that instead of bug reports we get dummy spits
10:08:15 <andythenorth> but presented as bug reports
10:08:30 * LordAro goes looking for the drama
10:08:57 <Timberwolf> I think there is something in the "low snow levels / high maximum height" thing.
10:09:07 <TrueBrain> I like how he says "default settings", while clearly those are not default settings :D
10:10:05 <Timberwolf> It does appear to generater much flatter maps than temperate does for the same max height.
10:10:07 <TrueBrain> its cute how I tell him nobody understands what max-height does, and he goes on to proof he doesn't understand it
10:10:09 <andythenorth> I am generating maps comparing 1.10
10:10:14 <TrueBrain> it is just a horrible setting to have in that window :)
10:10:19 <andythenorth> but the problem is that TGP is fucking mysterious
10:10:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl requested changes for pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys https://git.io/Jty2G
10:10:25 <andythenorth> so I don't know what settings to test
10:10:37 <andythenorth> like...nothing works in any way I've ever understood
10:11:15 <Timberwolf> There's also a case when you have really high industry density and snowline/max heights at something like 11 and 12 respectively, all the snowy peaks will be taken by other industries before forests can be placed.
10:11:41 <TrueBrain> basically, in my opinion, max-height should be hidden in the settings as "expert"
10:11:46 <TrueBrain> and we should default it to 200 or something
10:12:00 <Timberwolf> But that's more of a, "well what did you expect?" situation.
10:12:01 <TrueBrain> as really, it does nothing people think it does, it is just so incredibly dumb
10:12:34 <andythenorth> we've flat-topped the mountains for certain combinations, compared to 1.11
10:12:34 <TrueBrain> max-height never INCREASES the amount of hills you get, but can only REDUCE the amount you get, basically .. I mean .. wuth? :P
10:12:35 <TrueBrain> it so pisses me off :D
10:12:53 <andythenorth> to be clear: I only what to know *which* eggs we've broken
10:13:07 <andythenorth> TGP has been a minor tyre fire for years
10:13:09 <TrueBrain> "Found Allegro: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/liballeg.so (found version "4.4.3") "
10:28:59 <andythenorth> shame we don't have a QA obsessive :)
10:29:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys https://git.io/Jty2p
10:29:29 <andythenorth> we could script the UI to generate terrains for wide combinations of settings, then save them as heighmap
10:29:37 <andythenorth> then use standard visual diff tools to compare
10:29:53 <andythenorth> then we'd be able to find significant 'regressions'
10:30:50 <andythenorth> I use 'regression' in scare quotes, because it's not clear (1) what TGP is quite supposed to do or (2) if it has ever done it :D
10:46:53 <TrueBrain> I thought it would be good to remove a bit of the fake news going on in that thread :)
10:47:59 <Eddi|zuHause> since when was fake news susceptible to good arguments? :p
10:51:54 <TrueBrain> that is also why I am not trying to tell LC that it is fake news :)
10:52:32 <TrueBrain> the goal should not always be to convince the person starting the fire, but instead convincing everyone around the fire they shouldn't be there :)
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10:56:00 <LordAro> it's always fun looking at TB's forum posts from a (actual physical) distance
10:56:06 <LordAro> the smileys just stand out :)
10:56:35 <TrueBrain> I am rather known for that yes, and I refuse to change to become "normal" :P
10:56:51 <TrueBrain> I am rereading LCs posts, and I cannot believe how much he is misrepresenting what is going on :)
10:56:53 <LordAro> was not suggesting that there was anything wrong with it at all :p
10:57:29 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i think i see what you mean :)
10:58:16 <TrueBrain> I also cannot believe how many people reply in that thread without starting the game and building conclusions on it :)
10:58:29 <TrueBrain> "someone wrote this on the internet, IT MUST BE TRUE"
10:59:03 <TrueBrain> but lets see if we can make the thread a bit more constructive
10:59:14 <andythenorth> I mean people used to literally die from this shit
10:59:15 <Timberwolf> TrueBrain: "path-based signals are more computationally expensive"
10:59:24 <andythenorth> so at least we've moved civilisation on...right?
10:59:47 <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: que? And that sentence is silly ... "I am taller!"
11:00:00 <TrueBrain> You are breathing more!
11:00:01 * andythenorth tried playing an unwinnable Warcraft 1 map
11:00:19 <andythenorth> no archers, and 3 enemy knights turn up before I can build a barracks
11:00:23 <Timberwolf> TrueBrain: It's a Reddit/Discord thing, comes up a lot when people talk signalling.
11:00:32 <TrueBrain> yeah ... the unfounded bullshit people write
11:00:38 <TrueBrain> fake-news is not new
11:00:40 <TrueBrain> it now just has a name
11:00:51 <andythenorth> well it used to just be called propaganda
11:01:04 <andythenorth> or sometimes...news
11:01:51 <andythenorth> don't go TrueBrain !
11:01:56 <andythenorth> we will miss you!
11:02:20 * andythenorth procrastinating drawing pixels
11:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> fake news is probably as old as civilization itself
11:03:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably how religions form
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11:10:16 <andythenorth> the problem is there are too many settings that have influence
11:10:40 <andythenorth> like...variety distribution will affect perceived flatness (or unflatness)
11:10:50 <andythenorth> amount of sea affects max height of hills / mountains
11:12:21 <andythenorth> _dp_ drawing newgrf trains is slow :P
11:12:26 <andythenorth> andythenorth is slow!
11:12:38 <andythenorth> no I mean, literally, drawing them, pixels :)
11:12:41 * andythenorth is just being a twat
11:12:58 <Timberwolf> I love the Dutch aphorisms, they're so often uncanny valley versions of the English ones.
11:13:08 <Timberwolf> e.g. "storm in a glass of water" vs. "storm in a teacup"
11:13:19 <andythenorth> we're practically Dutch
11:13:31 <andythenorth> apart from the Viking and Celtic parts
11:13:52 <andythenorth> more trade across the North Sea than within England, historically
11:14:05 * andythenorth says things on the internet that might not be true
11:19:01 <andythenorth> _dp_ you are madder than me even
11:20:41 <andythenorth> it's like primitive life!
11:20:46 <andythenorth> you should YouTube that
11:21:45 <Xaroth> Something something 2k x 2k map with this
11:22:06 <andythenorth> teach a GS to build them
11:22:19 <Xaroth> or... use a copy/paste patch :P
11:23:23 <_dp_> Xaroth, and how do you think I ended up building that?
11:23:34 <_dp_> I was testing copy-paste patch :p
11:23:53 <Xaroth> go big or go home then :D
11:24:16 <_dp_> buying all the vehicles was a pita though
11:24:40 <_dp_> also untill I think of a way to make them chose more interesting paths going bigger is kinda pointless
11:27:39 <andythenorth> custom orders patch
11:27:51 <andythenorth> give each train preferences
11:28:13 <andythenorth> 'try to turn left' etc
11:28:40 <andythenorth> generative art in OpenTTD
11:28:58 <Xaroth> Ideally you'd want to place down a few dozen stations spaced apart, then have each train different orders
11:29:06 <andythenorth> generative patterns, Iron Horse Train Whack trading cards
11:29:11 <Xaroth> (i.e. different order of stations)
11:29:12 <andythenorth> and 3D printed vehicles
11:29:32 <andythenorth> we can get a gallery show
11:41:07 <_dp_> first train reserved THAT but then decided fuck it and went to kill itself xD
11:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause> trains can't kill themselves. need a minimum of 2 trains
11:45:51 <_dp_> well, it found some lost soul to crash into :p
11:47:40 <_dp_> the fact that it actually went off the reserved path is the most curious
11:48:28 <Xaroth> Maybe he got scared from all the crossings and decided to seek shelter with his buddy train?
11:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> somethingsomething stalereservation something notreversing something
12:05:27 <andythenorth> drawing certain train liveries is is soooo boring :)
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12:14:33 <andythenorth> did someone want a livery feature?
12:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> we already have multiple livery features
12:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause> you asked for at least 3 more :p
12:31:09 <andythenorth> I think ctrl-click remains my favourite
12:31:17 <andythenorth> we should make it increment a byte
12:31:33 <andythenorth> designing GUIs is hard :P
12:31:43 <andythenorth> ctrl-click is easy
12:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (aside from all the other reasons why ctrl+click is a bad idea)
12:34:06 <andythenorth> I suspect you're correct
12:34:28 <andythenorth> but sometimes being wrong offers more learning potential
12:35:09 <andythenorth> I would patch ctrl-click myself, but I give a low chance that I can correctly migrate the existing bool in savegames
12:35:47 <andythenorth> there's probably some elegant bit maths way to do that, which I would never think of
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12:52:31 <NGC3982> im pretty sure the last episode of the tv show 'the young doctos notebook' uses a train whistle sample that is - if not the same - extremely similar to the new-train-started sample in openttd
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13:12:50 <andythenorth> we all used that in the 90s / early 2000s
13:13:09 <andythenorth> I used it for Flash games a lot, but it shows up in other games and I think it's in KLF songs as well
13:14:00 <andythenorth> no steam train though
13:15:18 <andythenorth> there were a few other effects CD compilations :)
14:14:37 * andythenorth diligently painting pixels
14:17:32 <Samu> you no longer seem to care about coding style?
14:21:12 <Timberwolf> One of the YouTube series my OH watches keeps using the same sound sample as Total Annihilation did for "unit under attack".
14:22:14 <Timberwolf> I'm not sure I like spending my day with the mild underlying tension that somewhere a single AI kbot is boldy attacking a metal extractor I built an hour ago and forgot about.
14:25:13 <Samu> static bool NameSorter(const ObjectClass *const& a, const ObjectClass *const& b)
14:25:55 <LordAro> but it's 4 misplaced spaces
14:25:59 <LordAro> it's not the worst thing in the world
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14:28:28 <glx> finally trying to add msys2/mingw to CI
14:28:38 <Samu> static bool NameSorter(const ObjectClass * const &a, const ObjectClass * const &b)
14:28:44 <glx> will be a long trial and error
14:33:23 <andythenorth> time for Horse release?
14:38:10 <Samu> what's the correct style for this? typedef GUIList<const ObjectClass *, StringFilter &> GUIObjectClassList;
14:38:29 <Samu> or typedef GUIList<const ObjectClass*, StringFilter&> GUIObjectClassList;
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14:47:14 <Xaroth> Timberwolf: I have the same with all kinds of sound samples.. like slack/discord notifications
14:47:40 <Xaroth> and don't get me started on the EVE hull alarm.. that still freaks me out
14:52:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8693: Feature: allow changing the game-speed other than 1x and warp-speed https://git.io/JtyQk
15:12:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8696: Add: Allow stepping the game forward by a tick at a time https://git.io/JtyQb
15:18:01 <andythenorth> ^ interesting idea
15:20:13 <nielsm> yeah I tried hacking that in once but gave up
15:20:25 <nielsm> but it'll be useful for debugging newgrfs and stuff
15:25:55 <_dp_> oh, I have that in cmclient :p
15:27:34 <_dp_> quite a hacky implementation though
15:29:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #8696: Add: Allow stepping the game forward by a tick at a time https://git.io/JtyQb
15:32:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8696: Add: Allow stepping the game forward by a tick at a time https://git.io/JtyQb
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16:33:16 <supermop_Home> awaiting hotel sprite pitchforks
16:36:05 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #8697: GRF scanner progress updating no longer works due to _realtime_tick changes https://git.io/JtydV
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17:36:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8697: GRF scanner progress updating no longer works due to _realtime_tick changes https://git.io/JtydV
17:37:27 <glx> wow mouse is fast in debug build now
17:42:02 <glx> and it seems openttd fails to build for 32bit mingw
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17:59:21 <LordAro> glx: those are some weird error messages
17:59:35 <glx> yeah, I need to try locally
17:59:51 <glx> but at least I now why it fails only for 32 bit
18:00:01 <glx> it's in #if defined(__MINGW32__) && !defined(__MINGW64__)
18:00:39 <glx> need to search why we did that though
18:00:52 <glx> maybe it was a missing define at some point
18:09:02 <glx> anyway these checks won't be required to merge
18:10:02 <glx> like VS2017, it will be a safety run and tell we broke something before someone notice it by "accident"
18:22:11 <TrueBrain> booooo, I checked map generation modal window, assuming it would also fix grf scanner ...
18:22:34 <TrueBrain> glx: so now we have 6 (!) Windows targets :P
18:22:45 <TrueBrain> it starts to feels a bit excessive :)
18:24:15 <glx> it's just testing with 3 different compilers (and 2 arch)
18:24:19 <TrueBrain> I have no problems approving it once you fixed the errors btw :)
18:24:27 <TrueBrain> "just" testing a 3x2
18:24:33 <TrueBrain> I love how you used the word "just" there :D
18:25:17 <glx> I could add clang on MSVC too ;)
18:28:25 <TrueBrain> I still would like to add an sdl1 target
18:28:32 <TrueBrain> but that is tricky without a lot of copy/paste
18:28:49 <glx> you can add it to the matrix
18:29:04 <TrueBrain> as it needs to install a different dependency
18:29:18 <TrueBrain> if you have a good idea, I am all ears :)
18:29:43 <glx> that's easy, you put the dependency name in the matrix, and pass it to apt step
18:30:30 <glx> I use a similar trick with msys2
18:31:59 <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> it starts to feels a bit excessive :) <- at least one or another should compile and run fine, not like some other os projects I tried where the only target (win32) did not even compile
18:33:42 <glx> ok the breaking define was added 14 years ago, I think it should be fine to remove it as it's now unneeded
18:37:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8699: Fix d437445c: also use std::chrono for the GRFFileScanner modal window https://git.io/Jtyhw
18:37:22 <dwfreed> yeah, you can have arbitrary things in your matrix in GH Actions
18:37:33 <TrueBrain> my PR makes all the "required" things break again :P
18:37:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8699: Fix d437445c: also use std::chrono for the GRFFileScanner modal window https://git.io/Jtyhw
18:38:20 <TrueBrain> dwfreed: there is a difference between knowing the capabilities of a system and thinking of using it a certain way :)
18:38:43 <glx> like I broke it when adding VS2017 to the matrix
18:38:44 <TrueBrain> glx: can you test my PR to see if I really fixed the issue? I don't have that many NewGRFs to really notice it :D
18:39:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8697: GRF scanner progress updating no longer works due to _realtime_tick changes https://git.io/JtydV
18:39:28 <andythenorth> supermop_Home now we are going meta :)
18:44:49 <TrueBrain> Found SDL: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libSDLmain.a;/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libSDL.so;-lpthread (found version "1.2.15")
18:44:52 <TrueBrain> w00p, that works :D
18:45:14 <TrueBrain> yeah .. we now test all our video drivers again :)
18:45:48 <glx> well we don't test if driver works, but it should at least build ;)
18:48:53 <LordAro> we don't test if any of them work :p
18:51:14 <glx> hmm I removed the define, and now it fails to link on something unrelated (at least locally)
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18:56:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8699: Fix d437445c: also use std::chrono for the GRFFileScanner modal window https://git.io/Jtyjg
18:56:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8697: GRF scanner progress updating no longer works due to _realtime_tick changes https://git.io/JtydV
18:56:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8699: Fix d437445c: also use std::chrono for the GRFFileScanner modal window https://git.io/Jtyhw
18:57:13 <TrueBrain> very happy bugs are reported before the first nightly
18:57:24 <TrueBrain> I disabled the Linux CI targets for now as required, and enabled the VS2017
18:57:32 <TrueBrain> possibly we need some more forcing
18:57:41 <TrueBrain> might as well add the new linux ones as required
18:57:51 <glx> I intentionnaly not enable VS2017 :)
18:58:03 <glx> 2019 should be enough to validate
18:58:11 <TrueBrain> if you run it, make it required, tbfh
18:58:15 <TrueBrain> otherwise people will miss it failing :)
18:58:31 <TrueBrain> what is the point in CIing something if you don't care about the result :P
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19:01:19 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:01:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8693: Feature: allow changing the game-speed other than 1x and warp-speed https://git.io/JtSeL
19:02:56 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: I just rebased OpenGL and now I have to rebase and detangle again :P
19:03:19 <TrueBrain> I promise you, it is not really a lot of work
19:03:27 <TrueBrain> but you can also wait till I finish my "merge video drivers" PR
19:03:35 <TrueBrain> as I will cherry-pick some OpenGL thingies in there already
19:03:41 <TrueBrain> mostly the draw_lock unlock/lock stuff :)
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19:03:56 <michi_cc> In that case I will glady wait :)
19:03:58 <TrueBrain> (I know it is not a lot of work, as I tested my changeset on top of the OpenGL branch :P)
19:04:25 <TrueBrain> should be done tomorrow, so you don't even have to wait that long! :)
19:04:34 <TrueBrain> its silly how the same all video drivers are now
19:04:39 <TrueBrain> for their main game loop
19:05:59 <TrueBrain> I just have to figure out a way to make it clean between all drivers, given SDL2 has a weird unrolled loop the others do not ..
19:06:03 <andythenorth> it conveyors the snow into the wagons behind
19:06:36 <andythenorth> oh wait...that's Texas
19:07:03 <TrueBrain> I love that "the thread" now derailed in MY ARCTIC IS FLAT
19:07:07 <TrueBrain> which is a nice change of pace :)
19:07:54 <_dp_> I always felt that subarctic is more like alpine despite the name
19:08:01 <_dp_> it's even called that way in code in some places
19:08:05 <TrueBrain> _dp_: that is because that was the intention :)
19:08:19 <TrueBrain> it needs from sea level to snow level
19:08:28 <_dp_> like snowline isn't even a thing in subarctic
19:08:48 <TrueBrain> so the solution is .. rename the climate!
19:08:52 <TrueBrain> I like your way of thinking :D
19:11:01 <andythenorth> we lack a cfa / cfb / csb mediterranean / californian climate
19:11:35 <TrueBrain> its funny that it turns out, subarctic only has to do with the temp-range
19:11:37 <andythenorth> I always forget to call it subarctic, instead of arctic
19:11:40 <TrueBrain> not with type of landscape :P
19:11:52 <andythenorth> well the temp range affects the type of flora and fauna
19:12:11 <andythenorth> but not the topology so much
19:13:09 <TrueBrain> I was shocked, the nightly triggered close to its intended time
19:13:19 <andythenorth> anyway we could just bin it all off, invent 7 climates and super awesome presets for them
19:13:37 <_dp_> or, well, close enough :p
19:13:44 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that is one way of going, yes :)
19:13:50 <andythenorth> temperate, mediterranean, alpine (temperate green with snow), subarctic, subtropic, toyland, mars
19:13:53 <TrueBrain> but the game is a bit tight to the 4 climates
19:13:56 <TrueBrain> for some reason, basesets
19:13:58 <andythenorth> stuff and things :)
19:14:14 <andythenorth> yes, I do not volunteer to draw mediterranean :P
19:14:22 <TrueBrain> not sure if we can mix them :P
19:14:25 <andythenorth> alpine was already done, there are sets of green-snow tiles
19:14:45 <andythenorth> oh I forgot brickland
19:15:01 <TrueBrain> well, presets can force certain NewGRFs
19:15:08 <andythenorth> discord gravedug brickland today
19:15:08 <TrueBrain> so strictly seen, your idea can work just fine
19:15:17 <TrueBrain> if they can enforce a certain baseset, I guess
19:15:31 <andythenorth> brickland revival!
19:15:44 <TrueBrain> omg, I wrote brickland did I not?
19:15:54 <TrueBrain> got really annoyed by all the people on the sidelines telling me what to do
19:15:57 <TrueBrain> I remember vague :)
19:16:17 <andythenorth> lacks snow in that picture
19:16:26 <andythenorth> must be a variable snowline :)
19:16:37 <TrueBrain> I still want to make a legocad -> NewGRF tool
19:16:43 <TrueBrain> its just fun to design your own trains etc
19:16:57 <_dp_> yeah merge existing climates and split into new ones! :p
19:17:14 <_dp_> or, well, I guess toyland can stay xDD
19:17:16 <andythenorth> shard for different climates in same game
19:17:28 <TrueBrain> with presets, I would think we get a bit more room to give people control over detailed settings in the terrain generator
19:17:39 <andythenorth> if we knew how it worked :)
19:17:46 <andythenorth> I patched it once
19:17:58 <TrueBrain> which reminds me, tomorrow I will PR the removal of "max height"
19:18:21 <TrueBrain> and just fix it to some value like 240 or what-ever
19:18:36 <_dp_> funny fact - citymania has it's own max height setting
19:18:45 <_dp_> because apparently default one was not enough :p
19:18:46 <TrueBrain> or at the very least, remove it from the mapgen window
19:18:52 <TrueBrain> as it is such an anti-setting
19:19:03 <TrueBrain> I just hate that it has nothing to do with the mapgen
19:19:28 <LordAro> not worth trying to make it actually affect mapgen?
19:19:34 <LordAro> presumably that was the original intent
19:19:43 <TrueBrain> we can always reintroduce a new "max height"
19:19:55 <TrueBrain> but the current one already has a function, which is just bullshit to allow people to configure it :P
19:20:04 <TrueBrain> at least, I could not come up with any use-case
19:20:07 <TrueBrain> except for the very niche
19:20:33 <TrueBrain> what I would like to do, in presets, is allow a bit better tuning of height of mapgens, yes
19:20:39 <TrueBrain> instead of this fixed table we have now
19:20:42 <TrueBrain> depending on map-size
19:21:07 <TrueBrain> as that would actually mean we have a "height" setting that does what people expect
19:22:07 <TrueBrain> but yeah, possibly good to do that in 1 PR .. 1 commit removing the current bullshit
19:22:09 <TrueBrain> 1 to add a new setting
19:22:38 <TrueBrain> current problem is that it is a 2x2 table, depending on map-size and terrain type
19:22:45 <TrueBrain> meh .. will figure something out I am sure :)
19:23:37 <andythenorth> so it doesn't affect map max height? :O
19:23:42 <andythenorth> explains why it never worked for me
19:23:49 <TrueBrain> it does effect the MAP max height
19:23:52 <TrueBrain> just not the map GEN max height
19:24:17 <andythenorth> I assumed I was using it wrong
19:24:22 <TrueBrain> this is what I have been telling people for weeks now .. NOBODY understand what it does
19:24:29 <TrueBrain> as what it does is bullshit
19:24:39 <TrueBrain> it caps the technical max height level of the game to that value
19:24:42 <TrueBrain> mapgen just does its thing
19:24:47 <TrueBrain> and if it tries to go above it, it flattens it
19:24:53 <andythenorth> you told me this before
19:25:00 <andythenorth> it was just so lolz my brain discarded it
19:25:01 <TrueBrain> with as much WTF?!?!?!?! as I do now
19:25:17 <TrueBrain> which made me giggle most this morning, as I say: nobody understand what the setting does
19:25:22 <TrueBrain> LC goes: WITH THIS WINDOW IT WILL BE CLEAR
19:25:26 <TrueBrain> showing he has no clue what it does
19:25:28 <andythenorth> I think you'll have to tell me a third time before I remember
19:25:33 <TrueBrain> but that arrogance is amuzing
19:25:47 <TrueBrain> if a dev tells you it doesn't do what anyone things .. take a hint :)
19:25:57 <andythenorth> but it will impose a max height, for small values?
19:26:03 <andythenorth> or is that also bullshit?
19:26:10 <TrueBrain> if you put it at 3, nothing will be above height level 3
19:26:17 <frosch123> oh wow, someone actually noticed the issue with town names in scenario editor :o
19:26:18 <TrueBrain> what mapgen would have done above it, would be flat
19:26:30 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yes; one of our only true scenario creators
19:26:33 <andythenorth> oh so that's the plateau maker :D
19:26:37 <TrueBrain> he asked me on Discord, I told him to make an issue
19:26:37 <frosch123> i was wondering whether anyone would notice, and then it takes only a few days
19:26:41 <TrueBrain> thought you could appreciate it :)
19:27:02 <frosch123> TrueBrain: well, i was kind of aware of the issue. i just postponed it :)
19:27:09 <frosch123> so, sorry to him :)
19:27:20 <andythenorth> so delete all the cargo_age_period crap from Iron Horse?
19:27:21 <TrueBrain> bewust onbewust, how we say in Dutch
19:27:39 <andythenorth> is that a savegame bump yes/no? /me wonders
19:28:53 <frosch123> is it hacktoberfest again?
19:29:17 <_dp_> btw, it's mildly annoying to retune terragen settings for all the game modes each time new version comes out >:D
19:29:33 <_dp_> though I guess I should just switch to custom terragens already
19:35:08 <frosch123> TrueBrain: you could try setting max_height after map generation to max-generated-height + something
19:35:22 <TrueBrain> what is the use? :)
19:35:25 <TrueBrain> why not just 240 or something
19:35:40 <frosch123> max_height is used to define relative heights
19:36:00 <frosch123> use a variable snowline height newgrf
19:36:03 <frosch123> like opengfx+landscape
19:36:13 <TrueBrain> snowline is an option, not?
19:36:22 <TrueBrain> anyway, for those values we can use the max-generated-height, sure
19:36:23 <frosch123> variable snowline height is defined as percentage of max height
19:36:33 <TrueBrain> so there are 2 snowline heights in the game?
19:37:50 <frosch123> oh, it's also used to save heightmaps
19:38:00 <frosch123> well, you can grep yourself
19:38:09 <frosch123> but i think removing it is not as easy as it sounds
19:38:21 <TrueBrain> as I mentioned, at the very least move it to settings, away from mapgen :)
19:38:29 <TrueBrain> if one fails, the next will have to do :P
19:39:09 <TrueBrain> and if that fails .. well .. something at least
19:39:14 <TrueBrain> just to start untangling this web :P
19:41:15 * andythenorth deleted cargo_age_period from everything except metro trains
19:41:26 <andythenorth> now to see if it has made any difference to my savegame
19:41:33 <andythenorth> (spoiler: it won't)
19:41:41 <andythenorth> TrueBrain \o/ :D
19:43:51 <andythenorth> bye bye cargo again crap, and the need to maintain you :)
19:44:08 <andythenorth> and the player requests to show it in buy menu, even though it will DO BUGGER ALL IN MOST CASES
19:44:24 <andythenorth> another case of a thing that looks like it does a thing, in OpenTTD
19:44:31 <andythenorth> but does nothing like the thing at all
19:44:43 <andythenorth> why did I write 'again' not 'aging'
19:45:22 <andythenorth> there is no hope :D
19:46:40 <milek7_> >Well, at 60fps, I can hit a simulation rate of 9999.99 frames/sec (on an empty map, I know, cheating). It turns out, I found the upper-limit of the Framerate Window ...
19:47:07 <milek7_> eeh, it's not that you need these patches to hit 9999fps limit ;P
19:48:06 <frosch123> is there something like ender pearls in ottd?
19:49:48 <nielsm> maintaining company rating 1000 for 5 years maybe
19:49:58 <andythenorth> lol, removing the cargo aging 'bonus', all modified trains now make more money
19:50:11 * andythenorth suspects confounding factors in the savegame :D
19:50:24 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yesterday someone should me people are speed running OpenTTD ... where FF is allowed
19:50:28 <TrueBrain> "winning" in 10 seconds
19:50:32 <TrueBrain> no clue what people are smoking
19:51:02 <nielsm> two years ago or something someone did post on tt-forums about speedrunning
19:51:06 <andythenorth> hmm if pax route has multiple transfers, removing cargo aging bonus means some vehicles get less transfer credit penalty?
19:51:13 <_dp_> frosch123, yes, sell the train after delivery and buy the new one near the pickup :p
19:51:15 <nielsm> and I told them that ffwd makes no sense in that context because it depends on machine speed
19:51:38 <andythenorth> speedruns now have different rules
19:51:41 <andythenorth> using some custom grf
19:52:35 <andythenorth> discord explained it to me :)
19:53:59 <nielsm> why don't they use a GS that auto-pauses the game when the goal is reached and then shows the number of in-game days
19:54:43 <_dp_> nielsm, too much sense :p
19:54:54 <_dp_> add some more and you'll get citymania :p
19:55:12 <LordAro> _dp_: that strategy is only effective if you're an AI
19:55:20 <andythenorth> I think it's more of a Train Whack! style entertainment :)
19:55:24 <LordAro> too much work for an actual person beyond a couple of vehicles
19:56:02 <_dp_> LordAro, pfft, I've seen actual person juggling 6 trains on a single line with depots :p
19:56:08 <_dp_> selling train is nothing in comparison :P
19:56:36 <_dp_> or single track I guess that's called...
19:59:42 <_dp_> all to save a little bit of money on not doing passing loops
20:12:02 <andythenorth> so how do station ratings work? :)
20:12:31 <andythenorth> if I run a piglet vehicle constantly, AND autoreplace it aggressively, will I get max rating?
20:13:12 <andythenorth> newgrf vehicle with 1 year life?
20:13:50 <_dp_> aggressive autoreplace gives you +13%
20:13:53 <frosch123> it also needs to look fast
20:15:05 <frosch123> lol, player-written game-mechanics wiki are always silly
20:15:33 <frosch123> i guess it's an approximation
20:15:34 <andythenorth> I never 100% trust the wiki
20:15:48 <andythenorth> what % is appropriate to trust wiki? :)
20:15:53 <frosch123> use a ship with 127km/h
20:16:07 <andythenorth> so attach canal to every station :)
20:16:16 <frosch123> set it's livespan to 2 years, so it is auto-renewed often
20:16:45 <andythenorth> I think giving vehicles some property for 'affects rating' would be interesting :)
20:16:51 <andythenorth> but as I don't understand rating mechanic :)
20:17:28 <frosch123> did you try extreme values on loading speed?
20:17:46 <frosch123> try changing vehicle properties, which players actually notice
20:18:05 <frosch123> i think default is 5, so you could try making it 5 times slower
20:18:12 <_dp_> andythenorth, what's the point?
20:18:27 <_dp_> andythenorth, best case nothing changes, worst case you get a rating pushing exploit
20:22:43 <andythenorth> _dp_ I'd like to get higher ratings
20:23:02 <andythenorth> now I know about statues, I can get 82%
20:23:41 <andythenorth> oh station with recently replaced trains has 84%
20:24:26 <andythenorth> it's always bothered me that I can't win that
20:24:28 <_dp_> well, you get easy 77 + 17 for speed
20:24:37 <_dp_> other than that is only age and ads
20:24:46 <andythenorth> I did have 100% in FIRS, but that was a bit weird
20:24:57 <andythenorth> it de-incentivises providing regular service
20:25:07 <andythenorth> and just lets cargo pile up with no consequence
20:25:43 <_dp_> cargo pile gets you from +16 to -35 so it's quite important
20:26:29 <andythenorth> not if the callback sets the value to 100% in grf :P
20:26:40 <andythenorth> maybe I should restore the station rating to FIRS
20:26:48 <andythenorth> losing is boring
20:26:58 <andythenorth> 10/10 is always the score you want
20:27:14 <andythenorth> what's the newagerating switch?
20:28:41 <andythenorth> If the newagerating switch is turned on, the calculation changes. You get 33 points for vehicles younger than 5 years, and get 0 points for vehicles older than 21 years. Between these two ages, score drops slowly, by 2 points per year.
20:29:08 <andythenorth> no setting for that in OpenTTD
20:29:57 <_dp_> yeah, that doesn't seem to be a thing in openttd
20:30:22 <andythenorth> well maybe FIRS needs a new way to fix ratings
20:30:39 <andythenorth> the speed thing is weird
20:31:18 <_dp_> station ratings work kind of ok, you get about 70% normal rating, 80% with statue, 90% after replacement and 100% with regular advertisement
20:31:27 <_dp_> so the more money and effort you spend the higher it gets
20:32:04 <andythenorth> lots of slow vehicles in grfs I make
20:32:12 <andythenorth> I never considered that they are crap for ratings
20:32:23 <andythenorth> this might require a redesign
20:32:49 <andythenorth> or maybe some explanation somewhere
20:33:00 <_dp_> well, I'd say slow vehicles are crap for everything but looks :p
20:33:03 <andythenorth> maybe in vehicle windows: "Station rating: poor"
20:33:11 <_dp_> you want max speed for profit anyway
20:33:40 <andythenorth> different game style
20:34:00 <andythenorth> and lots of FIRS cargos are practically flat profit curve
20:34:20 <_dp_> yeah, but you're not after max effeciency than maxing station ratings are also irrelevant
20:34:32 <andythenorth> it's just like losing
20:34:39 <andythenorth> if you're gonna get scored on a thing, you want 100%
20:34:42 <andythenorth> anything else is ~failing
20:35:21 <_dp_> so 50% becomes 100%, and 100% is 200%
20:35:44 <andythenorth> how many ad campaigns do I need to buy to get 100%?
20:35:50 <andythenorth> I bought like 10, but the rating hasn't moved yet
20:36:09 <_dp_> and it only works within a certain radius from town center
20:36:21 <andythenorth> yeah these are further than that
20:36:42 <andythenorth> I have minimal towns, towns just get in the way and have no purpose
20:37:07 <_dp_> well, it's always same radius so town size doesn't matter
20:37:25 <andythenorth> yeah I've found a freight station near a town, now 99%
20:37:34 <andythenorth> so is there a GS that will just buy ad campaigns for me?
20:37:43 <andythenorth> or just deduct money and increase my rating?
20:38:06 <_dp_> cmclient has auto advertisement
20:38:25 <andythenorth> can it be included in vanilla? :)
20:38:30 <andythenorth> but might as well just use grf
20:38:56 <andythenorth> 'auto win' mechanics :P
20:39:27 <andythenorth> ok so, adjust ratings calculation to account for slower vehicles in grf, nerf the age thing because it's stupid?
20:39:31 <_dp_> it kinda should be included in vanilla imo
20:39:57 <_dp_> pay to win even more pay :p
20:39:59 <andythenorth> 'advertising subscription'
20:40:48 <andythenorth> hmm, this again precludes any role for 'special' vehicles
20:40:53 <JGR> Ratings and such seems a bit too much like micromanagement hoop-jumping to me
20:40:54 <andythenorth> cargo aging is junk
20:41:01 <andythenorth> negative run cost isn't possible
20:41:09 <andythenorth> rating bonus isn't possible
20:41:44 <JGR> If you did manage to have negative run costs, I'm sure someone would just run an empty train full of restaurant cars in a circle :)
20:41:50 <andythenorth> first thing I thought of :)
20:41:56 <_dp_> andythenorth, make it sound funny? :p
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20:42:50 <andythenorth> JGR I made this flash game for the launch of Railroad Tycoon 3, but I shipped it with a bug...
20:43:02 <andythenorth> after launch players discovered you could just loop the train to win :)
20:44:26 <andythenorth> I should have made the train alpha shift to black when it crashed :P
20:44:28 <andythenorth> flash could do that
20:44:39 <andythenorth> tint, not alpha *
20:45:19 <_dp_> what I like to do is just have a steady progression of vehicles with a faster one every few years
20:45:44 <_dp_> no property shenanigans, no railtype conversions just simple and straightforward
20:45:50 <_dp_> and make up for it in other places
20:46:22 <_dp_> well, I guess engine goals are an option as well now
20:47:29 <andythenorth> use it for daylength
20:48:05 <JGR> I tend to run my network with trains at roughly the same speed for the whole game
20:48:07 <_dp_> I don't need daylength :p
20:48:32 <JGR> I don't usually bother with vehicle progression, except for things like separate high speed networks later in the game
20:49:21 <andythenorth> so many playstyles :)
20:50:09 <andythenorth> well maybe restaurant cars just halve the running costs of the other vehicles in conists
20:51:01 <_dp_> yeah, drunk cows pay more! :p
20:51:27 <andythenorth> cows buy sandwiches too
20:52:12 <andythenorth> seems a bit limited, not sure other authors will be able to make use of it :)
20:52:27 <andythenorth> I guess they'll just carry on setting pointless cargo_age_period values :)
20:53:06 <JGR> As long as they don't cause desyncs or any other bugs it doesn't really matter
20:53:43 <_dp_> yep, all is irrelevant but max speed :p
20:53:44 <JGR> Money isn't that hard to come by once you've got started
20:55:52 <_dp_> whenever I play unfamiliar set I just pick the fastest engine and add enough of it for a decent acceleration xD
20:56:42 <andythenorth> there really aren't many dimensions to make vehicles 'interesting'
20:56:55 <andythenorth> it's why stats are very levelled across most of Iron Horse
20:57:10 <andythenorth> waste of time trying to calculate exactly which vehicle is 'optimum'
20:57:20 <andythenorth> just pick one with roughly correct power, that looks nice
20:57:32 <andythenorth> and attach wagons that refit the cargo, that you like look of
20:58:21 <_dp_> I don't even know what can be done to make them "interesting"
20:58:28 <_dp_> they're just used to get cargo from a to b
20:58:29 <JGR> Wagon capacity is even more a case of just pick the best one
20:58:39 <_dp_> why buiyng the train suddenly needs to be a puzzle? :p
20:58:41 <JGR> I don't know why some set authors include rubbish wagons
20:58:47 <andythenorth> I've had multiple requests to make some wagons more 'advantageous'
20:58:56 <andythenorth> but then the game is 'read stats, ignore all other wagons'
21:01:33 <andythenorth> but stupidly I did add 'luxury' pax coaches with lower capacity
21:01:47 <andythenorth> on fallacy that cargo age period could be used to boost their income
21:01:59 <andythenorth> now I have been trying to retcon that for about 2 years :P
21:02:37 <JGR> That seems more like the sort of thing that should affect ratings
21:03:44 <andythenorth> I considered adding a new pax class 'first class'
21:03:50 <andythenorth> but I think I'd have to do a house set
21:04:40 <JGR> I tried playing ECS once. Having separate passengers and tourists was a bit awkward.
21:05:27 <andythenorth> I think it would be horrible with cdist, balancing consists
21:05:43 <andythenorth> cdist has quite nasty cascades in complex networks
21:05:46 <_dp_> with how iron horse is I don't really see why would anyone use it for any kind of goal game
21:05:57 <andythenorth> increase capacity on one link, another one gets overloaded soon
21:06:01 <_dp_> has a lot of stuff with tons of nice details but 0 gamplay difference
21:06:13 <andythenorth> NUTS for goal games surely?
21:06:24 <_dp_> goal set imo should have few but very distinct trains
21:06:43 <JGR> Cdist with passengers really requires that the generation rate is reduced a bit
21:07:03 <andythenorth> I am playing with Improved Town Layouts grf, it helps a lot
21:07:09 <andythenorth> by capping building sizes
21:07:15 <_dp_> I did that thing once when I disabled everything but meow trains from nuts and adjusted some stats
21:13:32 <andythenorth> maybe I just level the capacity on the 'luxury' vehicles
21:13:37 <andythenorth> with the 'standard' vehicles
21:13:40 <andythenorth> and the loading speed
21:13:49 <andythenorth> just visual choices
21:14:02 <andythenorth> or delete them, simpler
21:14:35 <JGR> You could make them a livery option? :)
21:15:11 <andythenorth> using cargo subtypes? :(
21:16:25 <_dp_> give every third or so "luxury" skin randomly? :)
21:16:45 <andythenorth> they have position->sprite rules already
21:17:06 <andythenorth> 'restaurant' car sprites are faked in if the consist is long enough
21:18:31 <andythenorth> so...Luxury Pax Coach compared to Pax Coach :D
21:18:42 <andythenorth> higher running cost
21:18:45 <andythenorth> lower loading speed
21:20:59 <Wuzzy> hey all. i noticed that there are some sounds defined in OpenTTD that are currently unused, like SND_22_CAR_HORN. are the planned to be used at all in future or can i consider those sounds to be "legacy" forever?
21:21:42 <_dp_> andythenorth, I feel like you're following some real-life logic and expect it to have gameplay effect
21:21:51 <_dp_> don't think that'll ever work in openttd :p
21:22:14 <_dp_> if you want gameplay effect just set whatever stats needed to achieve that however unreallistic they may be
21:22:15 <andythenorth> this is why the arrow is flying towards 'delete'
21:22:57 <Xaroth> andythenorth: perhaps finetune some of the stats.. perhaps not the carrying capacity, but the loading speed?
21:23:03 <Xaroth> that way it might be a viable alternative
21:23:09 <Wuzzy> am I just in everyone's ignore list or why am i always ignored? 🙁
21:23:09 <Xaroth> without making it better by default
21:23:17 <andythenorth> I know that players report they like having a choice between 'luxury' and not
21:23:28 <andythenorth> but they think it actually has a benefit on longer routes
21:24:06 <andythenorth> Wuzzy you have strayed into the common position here
21:24:20 <andythenorth> you are currently the only person on this whole planet interested in OpenTTD sounds
21:24:34 <andythenorth> unless there are others, but not in irc / GitHub (possible)
21:26:18 <frosch123> Wuzzy: i checked that. those sounds are not used in ttd. by defintiion they are thus intentionally unused in ottd
21:26:41 <frosch123> i have some wip diff to rename them in the source
21:26:43 <Wuzzy> so then i can close those issues then
21:27:05 <Wuzzy> yeah, better to add a source comment to avoid future confusion =)
21:27:11 <frosch123> about half of them are mislabeled :p
21:27:24 <Wuzzy> how? they seem correct to me
21:27:26 * andythenorth looks into cargo payment curves
21:27:36 <andythenorth> maybe I can make pax payment decay really aggressive
21:28:04 <frosch123> the sounds named "truck" are used by busses. the sounds named "plane crash" are regular toyland planes starting, ... and so on
21:28:35 <Wuzzy> oh you mean in source code?
21:28:50 <_dp_> andythenorth, I can give you profit calc sources if you really want to dive into that xD
21:30:30 <andythenorth> _dp_ I think I tried before, and there is a limit to how steep the decay can be?
21:31:41 <_dp_> andythenorth, I don't remember, haven't looked at cargo payments in a long long while
21:31:59 <andythenorth> I think there's a floor under the initial time period
21:32:37 <andythenorth> the formula breaks my brain :P
21:33:23 <Wuzzy> i created this page while i was working on sound replacements for OpenSFX
21:34:17 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, looks like there isn't much you can do with that curve
21:34:34 <_dp_> basically you can only move the middle point
21:35:19 <_dp_> though mb you can effectively change steepnes with cargo aging
21:35:49 <_dp_> stretch/compress it basically
21:37:23 <andythenorth> for the distances I play, aging doesn't seem to have an effect
21:37:31 <andythenorth> it will vary by speed of vehicles obvs.
21:38:30 <_dp_> yeah, that's possible I guess
21:38:31 * andythenorth wonders if _dp_ has ticks vs vehicle speed vs tiles graph :)
21:38:36 <andythenorth> in the magic graphs ?
21:38:37 <_dp_> hard to tell without profit sim
21:40:16 <andythenorth> I did have a malus set on 'normal' vehicles, but I'm not convinced it did much
21:40:20 <_dp_> andythenorth, these 3 are connected
21:40:28 <_dp_> andythenorth, you know 2 you can calc third
21:42:45 <andythenorth> that's why I thought it might have a graph already :)
21:43:10 <andythenorth> I don't know over what distance the cargo aging property becomes effective
21:43:22 <andythenorth> previous tests suggested it was about 64 tiles for say 100mph train
21:43:30 <andythenorth> based on testing in a big savegame
21:43:58 <_dp_> but cargo aging is not implemented and it only have default vehicle and cargo stats
21:44:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenSFX] Wuzzy2 commented on issue #10: Change legacy Mercurial code in scripts and README https://git.io/JtErk
21:44:50 <_dp_> it's not that hard to add other stuff, mostly a ui issue
21:45:09 <_dp_> but I don't have time to work on it atm
21:45:24 * andythenorth tests cargo age period 0 in current game
21:45:48 <_dp_> I can give you sources if you want to play with it, shouldn't be that hard to get working
21:46:13 <_dp_> cmclient should be able to export stats from the game as well
21:46:24 <andythenorth> Timberwolf snowploughs...station rating bonus :P
21:46:30 <andythenorth> or negative running costs :P
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21:54:09 <andythenorth> I think I could keep the malus
21:54:13 <andythenorth> on standard pax coaches
21:54:23 <andythenorth> but I need to normalise it for speed maybe
21:57:35 <andythenorth> it would be much easier to just explain to players 'this vehicle earns a 50% premium per passenger'
21:57:53 <andythenorth> instead of 'this requires routes of about 64 tiles to make any difference, and that also depends on vehicle speed'
22:08:37 <TrueBrain> w00p, already have my first bug-report about the 60fps .. something to check out tomorrow :D
22:08:43 <TrueBrain> forums can be useful :)
22:09:46 <TrueBrain> just no clue what would cause that, but okay
22:09:53 <TrueBrain> that user did an hilarious experiment btw :P
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22:21:40 <NGC3982> is it possible to redirect console output on dedicated server to file?
22:23:17 <TrueBrain> whats the reason? CONSISTENCY! :D
22:23:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency https://git.io/JtStQ
22:26:44 <_dp_> I only suggested dark bg for graphs... how on earth did it turn into a 2 screen long list of changes? :/
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22:28:44 <JGR> NGC3982, use the "script" console command, or just use normal shell redirection
22:29:18 <NGC3982> i solved it by forking it and using a specifik config file
22:29:34 <andythenorth> so...can we add train property 2E?
22:29:38 <NGC3982> that makes openttd create the game files in config file directory, including openttd.log
22:29:41 <andythenorth> 'cargo payment rate multiplier'
22:30:53 <_dp_> ok, I can already imagine I won't like cream towns :p
22:31:27 <andythenorth> well we can all do some nitpick replies right?
22:31:36 <andythenorth> preferably contradictory ones? :)
22:31:49 <andythenorth> contribs. love that :)
22:32:14 <andythenorth> something like this, if it's net improvement, ship it, iterate
22:32:22 <JGR> Cargodist might be a bit of an issue for a cargo payment rate multiplier. The actual payment only occurs on the final leg.
22:32:39 <andythenorth> I think it's a bad idea
22:33:00 <andythenorth> it's just the most direct way to make a trade between capacity per unit length, and 'some other factor'
22:33:08 <_dp_> andythenorth, would be much easier to discuss as a 4 separate changes :/
22:33:30 <andythenorth> _dp_ probably, I am potato / potato :)
22:42:11 <andythenorth> ha I think I try running cost lolz for luxury cars
22:42:26 <andythenorth> tie it to load factor
22:42:37 <andythenorth> 0% load, running coast 2x normal pax coach
22:42:52 <andythenorth> 50% load, same running cost as normal pax coach
22:43:04 <andythenorth> 100% load, running cost 0 (due to sale of sandwiches, teacakes and gin)
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22:57:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8700: Change: Recolour windows for consistency https://git.io/JtSmc
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23:06:36 <glx> but the 2 failing lines are similar
23:07:12 <glx> return std::min<uint>(IndustryPool::MAX_SIZE, ScaleByMapSize(numof_industry_table[difficulty]));
23:07:12 <glx> total = std::min<uint>(TownPool::MAX_SIZE, total);
23:14:00 <NGC3982> openttd -D -c ~/openttd-1/openttd-1.cfg -f -x
23:22:09 <glx> ok adding some casts and it works, it's weird
23:25:03 <LordAro> glx: something to do with inlining and mismatched types, from when i did the conversion to std::min
23:25:21 <LordAro> the templated function means that types must be of the same signedness
23:26:05 <glx> size_t should work (in 32bit it's uint anyway)
23:29:38 <glx> compiler probably does weird things
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23:41:39 <glx> if I use a temp auto var for ::MAX_SIZE and use the var in std::min it compiles fine too
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