IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-01-07
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07:01:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8507: Fix #7604: prevent houses to wander too far from town center when rebuilding https://git.io/JLNpN
07:01:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8509: Fix #8068: always allow removal of tram track if that generates money https://git.io/JLARS
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07:01:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8068: Streetcar track removal fails when bank balance negative https://git.io/JvxRZ
07:27:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8511: Fix #8332: aborting group drag&drop could cause crashes with vehicle drag&drop https://git.io/JLAFv
07:27:15 <TrueBrain> I like that I read a bug report, and I see below that a JGRPP commit to fix the problem :P
07:29:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8332: Null pointer dereference in group window when vehicle/group dragging https://git.io/JTrzT
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08:18:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8512: Several mistakes with ending-year and extreme values https://git.io/JLANI
08:19:36 <TrueBrain> funny how a really old bug got reintroduced :D ^^ :D
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08:24:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8512: Several mistakes with ending-year and extreme values https://git.io/JLANI
08:35:00 <TrueBrain> right, 20 git blames later, to confirm some details .... :D
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08:36:44 <TrueBrain> owh, finally, it is official, Biden won
08:37:00 <andythenorth> still counting, I'm watching it
08:37:09 * andythenorth stayed up way tooooo late
08:37:14 <TrueBrain> well, he cannot lose anymore
08:37:18 <TrueBrain> so ... they can do what-ever they like :P
08:39:59 <andythenorth> so houses blog post then? :D
08:40:52 <andythenorth> ha I was going to do a round-up kind of post after livestream, but I forgot
08:41:21 <andythenorth> for all the places we announced livestream, guess which one we missed? :)
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08:46:14 <TrueBrain> what a silly question
08:47:18 <andythenorth> the silliest so far today?
08:47:18 <TrueBrain> either you want to tell or you don't; but this is close to childish :P (I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DONT KNOW :P)
08:47:34 <andythenorth> yeah website oopsie
08:47:34 <TrueBrain> hmm .. wtf are "clearable watered object tiles"?
08:47:58 <TrueBrain> deliberately, I did not post it on the website; that was not "forgotten", it was a choice not to :)
08:48:07 <andythenorth> ok, let's never mention it again
08:48:31 <TrueBrain> for something you do a first time, you want to get attention of a certain group of people .. readers of our news I did not consider one of those :)
08:48:34 <andythenorth> where is this water silly question?
08:48:57 <TrueBrain> I am reading a PR that says "clearable watered object tiles" .. no mention what they are, how to get those, etc
08:49:05 <TrueBrain> so clearly it must be something that is well known to everyone
08:49:08 <TrueBrain> I don't know what it is :D
08:51:08 <andythenorth> me neither, but I know very little
08:51:11 <TrueBrain> wtf is going on with the OpenTTD Discord ... now they are also starring cats ... omg ...
08:51:20 <andythenorth> I am enjoying it, but very confused
08:51:28 <reldred> There's a discord? Of course there's a discord.
08:51:49 * andythenorth new convert to discord
08:52:02 <TrueBrain> so, how to test this code without know wtf it is about ... tempted to just remove it
08:52:34 <reldred> yeah discord's rad til discord starts zealously overpolicing communities.
08:52:49 <andythenorth> wat gamers say bad things?
08:52:56 <TrueBrain> lol, you can build a canel on a river .. nothing changes, but it does cost you money :D
08:53:02 <reldred> Nah, there's been a few other things that have happened.
08:53:14 <reldred> An off grid living discord got nuked and all its members banned
08:53:35 <andythenorth> well now they're off-grid
08:53:42 <reldred> Irony of people 'off grid' and also on the internet is not entirely lost on me however >:D
08:53:43 <andythenorth> so must be objective achieved no?
08:54:13 <TrueBrain> "Docks cannot be placed on rapids"
08:55:01 <reldred> Nah I just get concerned when I hear folks like the mozilla foundation call out decentralized platforms as being the biggest danger to society. I know they're thinking about Gab and Parler but their rhetoric also covers any other private forum, IRC, etc.
08:55:13 <reldred> Like, I like IRC, I like boards like tt-forums.
08:55:42 <reldred> And I'm not overly fan of organisations shoe-horning everyone onto centralised platforms so they can nanny us.
08:56:43 <reldred> TrueBrain: maybe they're referring to rivers? sloped rivers?
08:57:16 <andythenorth> TrueBrain where even is this PR? I did search github for 'watered' and crap
08:58:11 <TrueBrain> I have no clue what it does, why it is there, or what it is doing ...
08:58:15 <andythenorth> oh I step away sorry, that's another whackamole PR
08:58:24 <andythenorth> all of these just move the issues around
08:58:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock https://git.io/JvTH0
08:58:35 <andythenorth> it's shuffling the deck, but to what result?
08:59:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock https://git.io/JLAxI
08:59:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock https://git.io/JLAxL
08:59:53 <TrueBrain> I just removed the commit, and kept the one solving a bug
09:03:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8340: Draft: Feature: Create Universal (x86_64 + Apple Silicon) build on macOS https://git.io/JLAx8
09:11:51 <TrueBrain> bit confused by ^^; if anyone knows more about docks, would love to get some feedback :)
09:17:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8274: Feature: option to auto remove signals when in the way during rail co… https://git.io/JJsQJ
09:19:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8006: Codechange: Increase scrollbar length limit to UINT_MAX and make their length properly unsigned https://git.io/JLApS
09:20:01 <TrueBrain> dock placement is super odd
09:20:16 <TrueBrain> it checks more than it is big, but it doesn't claim the 3rd tile in any shape or form
09:22:08 <andythenorth> I have never noticed a problem and I build a lot of docks
09:22:13 <andythenorth> doesn't mean there aren't any :)
09:22:50 <andythenorth> ok coffee must happen, 5 hours sleep wasn't enough
09:23:22 <TrueBrain> well, I added screenshots of fun moments with docks I had :D
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09:24:15 <andythenorth> there was a very big effort to prevent docks blocking ship routes
09:24:20 <andythenorth> I kind of zoned out about it
09:26:37 <TrueBrain> I read one word and closed the tab
09:26:59 <andythenorth> anyway this release list is looking nice :)
09:28:30 <TrueBrain> oef, I honestly suppressed any knowledge of those comments :P
09:29:01 <andythenorth> I really feel I did enough reading about docks
09:29:07 * andythenorth nearly wrote dicks, let's not eh
09:29:09 <TrueBrain> well, only 3 (I think?) bugs left and 2 PRs .. the rest either just needs a PR review/merge, or people are working on it real hard :)
09:29:19 <TrueBrain> docks can be such dicks
09:29:50 <andythenorth> docks not being newgrf-able or flat is much more interesting than all these weird cases
09:29:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge commented on pull request #8340: Draft: Feature: Create Universal (x86_64 + Apple Silicon) build on macOS https://git.io/JLAhO
09:30:12 <andythenorth> like...'where can I build this dock?' should be a newgrf author question, like industries
09:30:25 <andythenorth> all this fucking around in vanilla client over trivia :)
09:31:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8511: Fix #8332: aborting group drag&drop could cause crashes with vehicle drag&drop https://git.io/JLAhZ
09:32:25 <LordAro> TrueBrain: your other 2 look reasonably sane, but i need some actual time to think about them first :)
09:32:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8511: Fix #8332: aborting group drag&drop could cause crashes with vehicle drag&drop https://git.io/JLAFv
09:32:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8332: Null pointer dereference in group window when vehicle/group dragging https://git.io/JTrzT
09:32:35 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I can fully understand that :D
09:32:55 <TrueBrain> especially the bridge one, it is a brain-breaker
09:33:06 * LordAro does some actual work
09:33:08 <TrueBrain> no rush, I appreciate the reviews :)
09:33:34 <TrueBrain> could be 2 less :P :P :P :P
09:35:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock https://git.io/JvTH0
09:35:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #7945: Building docks does not account the cost of clearing the sloped tile https://git.io/JvT9H
09:38:46 <andythenorth> tropic TGP is ~broken for generating rainforests in most cases, I'll look if there's an issue
09:38:58 <andythenorth> arctic might just be solved by snowline setting?
09:42:22 <TrueBrain> so somewhere with the more-heights-stuff, 2 climates broke
09:43:28 <TrueBrain> looking at artic, both map generators are broken
09:43:35 <TrueBrain> even with Hilly it doesn't go high enough
09:44:09 <TrueBrain> it needs highest setting before it reaches snow :)
09:44:11 <andythenorth> I stopped playing Tropic because the maps are just flat
09:44:35 <andythenorth> some solutions got proposed, e.g. just use heightmaps etc
09:44:46 <andythenorth> is there a Better Way?
09:44:52 <TrueBrain> what is flat for Temperate, should be hilly for Tropic, I guess :D
09:45:18 <TrueBrain> the thing that simply annoys me, that if you are a new player and click Artic, you get an error a forest could not be planted
09:45:25 <TrueBrain> that gives you 0 context what the impact is of that
09:45:31 <TrueBrain> it is just bad defaults, basically
09:46:41 <Eddi|zuHause> tropic rainforests might be easier if there were a way to generate good rivers :p
09:47:07 <andythenorth> oh 7 tickets about it Samu made a list :)
09:47:25 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause $somebody had a patch
09:47:30 <andythenorth> I even tested it
09:47:40 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but it got out of hand...
09:47:53 <Eddi|zuHause> we need river tiles on arbitrary slopes
09:48:28 <reldred> I've been doing a lot of screwing around with heightmaps lately and a couple of things I thought of; ability to control the height at which rainforest kicks in, ability to control the distance from river/ocean before desert kicks in.
09:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> more settings! :p
09:48:57 <reldred> I mean, doesn't help out newbie players. Sensible defaults would be good.
09:49:02 <TrueBrain> I do not remember that maps were this flat .. is that the new height that causes it?
09:49:27 <TrueBrain> did someone forget to scale something ?
09:49:53 <andythenorth> it has been diagnosed before by multiple people
09:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> a combination of weird TGP special cases, the later added variety curves, and the new heightlevels
09:50:08 <TrueBrain> when I change it back to 15 or so, it is much more what I remember :)
09:50:13 <reldred> Yeah, max height 255, alpinist, no variety distrib, maps are super flat.
09:50:49 <reldred> that was 256x1024, doing a 2048x2048 now
09:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc the original TGP was doing some extra adjustments on arctic/tropic that might now work against each other
09:51:13 <reldred> Yeah that was more of the same. Tallest mountain I found was height level 48
09:51:44 <andythenorth> iirc there is some clamp somewhere in variety curves that flattens the map
09:51:53 <andythenorth> but eh, hazy memory
09:51:56 <reldred> Found a mountain @ 58, but no rainforests are generating on them.
09:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> but original TGP is some very odd code quality, so everyone who tried to understand it got lost
09:52:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that includes me and PeterN
09:52:20 <TrueBrain> took me weeks to take TGP as it was presented to a mergeable state :P
09:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> who was TGP author? RichK?
09:53:04 <andythenorth> * Half of tiles should be at lowest (0..25%) heights */ sticks out to me as offending
09:53:11 <TrueBrain> it was a dude that put his name in every patch ... cannot remember who, sadly
09:53:20 <andythenorth> like...if you pull half the tiles down and have large flat areas
09:53:34 <reldred> God I remember when TGP first hit.
09:53:34 <TrueBrain> as in, TGP was littered with comments naming the person who wrote it :P
09:53:37 <andythenorth> that anchors the entire map
09:53:45 <reldred> Seemed god damn magical back in the day I gotta admit
09:53:54 <andythenorth> it's better than original
09:54:03 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD revormed with TGP hitting master :)
09:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it does its job pretty good, but it's not extendable
09:54:18 <reldred> Everything was very square in the original map gen
09:54:23 <TrueBrain> it was when some people "in power" lost power, and the dynamic of OpenTTD changed drasticly :)
09:54:30 <TrueBrain> it was when I created a "devs-only" channel :P
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09:55:16 <TrueBrain> before the game just froze when generating maps
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09:55:26 <TrueBrain> after that you got this nice dialog showing progress
09:55:31 <andythenorth> since variety distribution was added I fail to understand how the settings relate to result
09:55:32 <TrueBrain> damn, that was technically very tricky to pull off
09:55:38 <andythenorth> eddi has to explain it to me every time
09:55:50 <andythenorth> but eh, let's stick to today's PR
09:55:58 <reldred> Ummm, I know turning variety distribution up results in smoother map and down results in crunchier map.
09:56:12 <andythenorth> it also affects whether you get hills or not
09:56:12 <reldred> crunchy maps = good as far as I'm concerned.
09:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc PeterN was about to rip out the variety distribution again, and reimplement with perlin noise
09:56:34 <TrueBrain> well, what-ever we do, the current defaults are just shitty
09:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but the perlin noise implementation in TGP was... not extendable
09:56:40 <TrueBrain> even for temperate ..
09:57:15 <TrueBrain> I btw never really understood why we needed more height-levels :P
09:57:27 <TrueBrain> slopes aren't exactly fun to deal with :P
09:57:39 <reldred> Past 255? I don't see any point til we can get RCT style cliffs.
09:57:57 <Eddi|zuHause> 32 or 48 works pretty well
09:58:03 <reldred> I use past 15 religiously.
09:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> beyond that is... unpractical
09:58:11 <TrueBrain> the default is 30, so I imagine :P
09:58:18 <TrueBrain> yeah, okay, I can see 48 .. just not 255 :D
09:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause> well, 255 was the next logical step on a technical level.
09:59:06 <reldred> Sometimes depends on the heightmap too. I generally use 63/127. Sometimes 255. Whatever I need to get the terrain I want out of the heightmap I'm using.
09:59:31 <reldred> Currently using a lot of Cpt.K's heightmaps.
09:59:42 <Timberwolf> I like using ~32 on a large and relatively sparse map.
10:00:05 <Timberwolf> The aim is to get 1 or 2 mountains which are impassable and have to be worked around.
10:00:17 <TrueBrain> I guess none of those maps are 256x256 :D
10:00:18 <reldred> I like mountain ranges that *are* unpractical, I like it to be an obstacle I have to work around. Otherwise it may as well be flat terrain if it's not a challenge.
10:00:32 <reldred> I usually use 1:4 or 1:2 ratio maps
10:00:50 <reldred> And 5x train cargo weight modifier
10:01:12 <andythenorth> it's gonna be big maps?
10:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there's this weird stretching on 1:4 maps
10:01:29 <andythenorth> I never see any high heights, I play 256x512 or less
10:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> all the mountains are squished along the longer map edge
10:02:01 <reldred> CptK's Broad Channel, at 256x1024, max height 255.
10:02:46 <TrueBrain> right, so after TGP has done its Perlin Noise, it get a MaxHeight depending on map size, and clamps everything between 0 and that value
10:03:13 <andythenorth> this sounds identical to what peter found
10:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and there's some weird scaling applied, that flattens mountain tops
10:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and other weird scalings on tropic and arctic
10:03:34 <TrueBrain> it clamps .. no scaling :P
10:03:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried to work through TGP multiple times
10:03:59 <TrueBrain> on flat maps at 1kx1k, highest peak should be 14 high
10:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> there was an issue where it wouldn't ever generate height 15
10:04:15 <TrueBrain> I can see this being an issue :D
10:04:36 <Eddi|zuHause> back when 15 was max
10:05:51 <TrueBrain> code is just weird too :D First it normalizes towards the max-height, next it clamps it again to max-height
10:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i think PeterN came to the conclusion that it needs a complete rewrite, then he disappeared again
10:06:43 <TrueBrain> I simply disagree with TGPGetMaxHeight having hard-coded "max-height" values
10:06:48 <TrueBrain> that works against what I expected it to do
10:07:03 <TrueBrain> as in, I expected that higher height-levels would create higher mountains
10:07:19 <TrueBrain> higher max-height-levels just allows fr them, but that is it
10:07:30 <andythenorth> you have to build your own
10:08:03 <TrueBrain> is it just me, or should is just scale with the max-height-level?
10:09:07 <reldred> Link the tropic rainforest height to the same UI snowlevel height while you're at it? Then rename the UI widget in the map generation window to reflect it?
10:09:57 <reldred> At the moment it just greys out.
10:10:28 <TrueBrain> make a PR for it! :)
10:10:50 <reldred> please don't make me program
10:11:00 <TrueBrain> please don't make me fix 10 bugs at once :P
10:11:54 <reldred> I can respect that. I'm still putting off writing so many grf's...
10:12:35 <reldred> I'm not sure I can withstand the psychic damage of creating any new grf's. Updating/fixing old ones was bad enough.
10:13:01 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> is it just me, or should is just scale with the max-height-level? <-- i feel like we probably discussed that when merging more heightlevels. might want to look that up :)
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10:13:19 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: you suggest I go read backlogs of 10 years ago? :D
10:18:25 <TrueBrain> so we have 2 mechanisms that are working against each other: on one hand we say: this is the max height, and here is the snow level. On the other hand we have: for small maps, we shouldn't make mountains too high
10:18:32 <TrueBrain> that is pretty much a contradictory on its own :)
10:19:51 <reldred> Sensible defaults first, once the users have figured out what they're doing beyond defaults open it up to their preference. I mean I like stupid mountains even on tiny maps. Some people like biiiig wide open flat maps.
10:22:38 <TrueBrain> okay ... how does tropical decide where to put the desert line .. lets find the piece of code for that :D
10:23:16 <reldred> From what I can tell its two/three tiles out from any river, and five/six tiles out from any ocean.
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10:23:49 <reldred> Until some arbitrary height that's calculated from the maxheight.
10:24:21 <TrueBrain> 1/4th of the max height
10:24:56 <TrueBrain> so for one we have a configurable snow-height, for the other we have a 1/4th height
10:26:20 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also some weird scaling for newgrf-defined snow height
10:27:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like what would be more sensible is a "fraction of map area that is desert"
10:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of defining it by height
10:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> which might make it behave more like sea level
10:28:33 <TrueBrain> that doesn't solve the current problem; a flat map would than either be full desert or full tropical ;)
10:28:58 <TrueBrain> there has to be a reasonable amount of height difference in those maps
10:29:08 <TrueBrain> flat simply doesn't make any sense, from a gameplay perspective
10:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's true for sea level as well
10:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it jumps from 5% to 80% water
10:30:06 <TrueBrain> aren't both the same problem?
10:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you would need fractional heightlevels to find a more accurate line to split
10:31:55 <TrueBrain> hmm .. this result looks a lot better .. I just add the snow-line-height to the max-allowed-tgp level for artic
10:31:59 <TrueBrain> this means very flat is .. not flat
10:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> which perlin noise could provide
10:32:04 <TrueBrain> but has like 5% snow
10:32:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but you need to do that in an intermediate step which TGP doesn't expose
10:32:18 <TrueBrain> it is a cheesy solution, but it seems to work
10:32:42 <TrueBrain> I am not looking into writing another map generator :) I am looking into how to fix defaults to be less ... weird
10:38:31 <TrueBrain> snow-line-height is arctic only, not?
10:40:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] erenes opened pull request #79: downgraded chardet to 3.0.4 to fix compatibility issue with aiohttp, … https://git.io/JLxJJ
10:44:30 <TrueBrain> lol @ max-height table .. it used to make sense, as in, that the steps were always bigger than the step before
10:44:36 <TrueBrain> but with this new table, it is all over the place
10:45:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] erenes updated pull request #79: Revert chardet to 3.0.4 to fix compatibility issue with aiohttp, … https://git.io/JLxJJ
10:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that's what you get when people try to fix issues on a surface level
10:48:10 <TrueBrain> yeah, it is all a bit out of whack now
10:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that's how PeterN came to his conclusion that it needs a rewrite
10:49:09 <TrueBrain> sadly, that is a conclusion we can draw from many bugs we have :P
10:49:14 <TrueBrain> doesn't really solve the here and now :D
10:49:31 <TrueBrain> tropic is funny, even on Alpinist there are almost no mountains
10:49:45 <TrueBrain> guess that makes some-what sense on some level
10:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> variety distribution tends to eliminate a lot of mountains
10:54:50 <andythenorth> the PR I put in for tropic does improve the current state
10:54:54 <andythenorth> but I would say that eh :)
10:56:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain commented on pull request #79: Revert chardet to 3.0.4 to fix compatibility issue with aiohttp, … https://git.io/JLxUt
10:56:30 <TrueBrain> you keep linking your own PR
10:56:35 <TrueBrain> is there something you want to tell us? :)
10:57:28 <andythenorth> it's not like I did anything clever, I just reduced the fragmentation
10:57:55 <andythenorth> swapped "this clearly doesn't work" for "this might be better and is just reusing existing thing"
10:58:31 <andythenorth> I don't think it's a permanent solution :)
11:08:42 <TrueBrain> but it doesn't solve the problem of default settings ;)
11:08:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8513: Fix: for arctic and tropic, make sure we have at least a few hills https://git.io/JLxTc
11:09:19 <TrueBrain> this does ^^, but it is a stopgap solution, and a compromise between all the bad things :P
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11:12:56 <TrueBrain> let's build a preview so people can experiment a bit
11:13:06 <TrueBrain> but the more you do, the more issues you notice :D
11:13:12 <andythenorth> I was about to pull it, but wasm ftw
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11:20:30 <TrueBrain> if a PR takes that many words to explain, you know there is something else wrong :P :D
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11:52:22 * andythenorth considers newgrf
11:54:45 * andythenorth wonders how to scroll minimap
11:54:45 <TrueBrain> you will have to set the snow-line-height to 10 yourself if you ever opened any preview btw :)
11:54:47 <andythenorth> I should read the manual
11:55:42 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that once again proves what an unmaintainable mess TGP has become
11:56:02 <TrueBrain> you just repeating words now Eddi|zuHause :)
11:56:28 <Eddi|zuHause> some words are worth repeating :p
11:57:10 <andythenorth> does player have to fund lumber mills?
11:57:15 <andythenorth> I'm not getting any
11:57:18 <andythenorth> wiki doesn't say
11:57:52 <TrueBrain> "Lumber mills are a special industry that are not generated automatically but can only be funded by the player." :)
11:58:02 <andythenorth> that will be the clue yes
11:58:07 <andythenorth> if only someone had read it
11:58:24 <TrueBrain> enable text-to-speech, that will make the wiki say it :D
11:58:25 <andythenorth> maps seem 'fine'
11:58:32 <andythenorth> like...nothing is broken
11:58:36 <andythenorth> forests are getting built
11:58:42 <andythenorth> I only tried 256x256 default
11:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i've ever played tropic long enough to fund one
11:58:50 <TrueBrain> that was the aim :) It is far from perfect, but it also doesn't break anything :P
11:59:12 <TrueBrain> the bigger the map, the better it gets, honestly
11:59:56 <TrueBrain> on 64x64, nothing works :P
12:00:13 <TrueBrain> why did I make the minimal size 64 again? Most have been high :P
12:00:25 <TrueBrain> 128x128 already looks good, that surprises me
12:00:26 <andythenorth> no FF, I don't want to kill the script :P
12:00:28 <andythenorth> it's just map gen
12:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> on very flat maps you could move the baseline to just around the snowline, at the cost of having no sea level tiles
12:01:42 <TrueBrain> I see more possibilities to improve it, but we already agree'd someone should just rewrite it :D
12:03:32 <TrueBrain> seeing 64x64 maps makes me want to revive head-to-head branch .. that was fun, 4 players on their own 64x64 map (on a single server), trying to make as much money as they could in a short amount of time :D
12:04:24 <andythenorth> you're not tempted to downstream the 16k x 16k patch?
12:05:52 <TrueBrain> initial I did want to allow a max-size, as in, that you could have 16k by 256, for example
12:05:58 <TrueBrain> but that is complicated to show in an UI
12:06:02 <andythenorth> confirmed 64x64 is a sad time for arctic and tropic
12:06:13 <TrueBrain> but a 16k x 16k map is just silly for a 1-thread game
12:06:30 <andythenorth> does the 64x64 case matter really?
12:06:56 <TrueBrain> always have been broken
12:06:58 <TrueBrain> always will be broken
12:07:50 <andythenorth> ok, we need someone more exhaustive than me if we want valid tests :P
12:09:37 <TrueBrain> maybe reldred wants to take a look too :)
12:19:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8048: Path is not released, after it was reserved through another train causing a crash https://git.io/JvQtG
12:21:06 <TrueBrain> how to reproduce an issue you only have a mp4 off .. hmm
12:21:40 <TrueBrain> random question; no clue how to answer :)
12:21:48 <TrueBrain> did you reproduce it? I dunno
12:21:51 <TrueBrain> did you make an mp4? I dunno
12:21:58 <TrueBrain> did you have lunch? I dunno
12:28:23 <TrueBrain> return RandomRange(pass + 1); // Randomise deceased passengers.
12:28:29 <TrueBrain> haha, I did not know it was randomized
12:28:34 <TrueBrain> just a full random :)
12:32:48 <TrueBrain> + 1 is I think to change 0..N) to 1..N]
12:33:00 <Timberwolf> newgrf variable for "vehicle safety" pls. ;)
12:33:12 <TrueBrain> not a bad idea honestly :P
12:34:08 <reldred> As far as sensible defaults go arctic is looking good TrueBrain, Tropic I need to gen a few more and see how they look
12:34:23 <TrueBrain> if you don't mind, would love the feedback :)
12:34:42 <reldred> Okay, 2nd map on Temperate quite a bit more promising
12:34:50 <reldred> Tropic, not temperate damnit
12:35:36 <reldred> So yeah, I think for default daisies you're looking pretty good now, anyone coming from or who has memories of TTD would be satisfied with those compared to previously.
12:35:43 <reldred> Now let's abuse it and see what happens >:D
12:35:56 <TrueBrain> take it to the limit! :D
12:39:11 <reldred> Okay, looks good on defaults, tropical however still has problems where the max mountain height never gets within an inch of max map height which then means no tropics again.
12:39:29 <reldred> Look, definitely a massive improvement on default settings for a new player.
12:41:22 <reldred> Being able to customise the tropics height level like you can the snow level would fix that I think and be pretty intuitive to anyone who's generated a few arctic maps
12:43:09 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm 90% certain the +1 is to include the driver
12:43:29 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I am 90% certain it is not, as train_cmd adds 2 more, of which I assume are the 2 drivers :D
12:43:37 <andythenorth> Timberwolf expose vehicle safety via 'variants' spec :P
12:43:41 <TrueBrain> pass += 2; // driver
12:43:46 <andythenorth> player can choose 'overspeed' or not
12:43:52 <andythenorth> is variants spec yet?
12:44:35 <TrueBrain> reldred: indeed, in extremes tropics still don't work .. but I leave that for someone else to fix I think :D Trying to get 1.11 ready :P
12:44:43 <TrueBrain> something something rabbit hole :)
12:45:03 <TrueBrain> LordAro: on the other hand, my 0..N) -> 1..N] is bullshit, as the +1 is inside the ()
12:45:09 <TrueBrain> so no clue what the + 1 is for ...
12:45:26 <TrueBrain> or trains have 3 drivers
12:46:29 <Timberwolf> andythenorth: Red ones are faster but more dangerous?
12:46:45 <andythenorth> sounds like liveries
12:46:51 <andythenorth> and a recurring joke
12:47:02 <andythenorth> we can already do that with company colours :P
12:47:58 * andythenorth wonders what's wrong with the 'many IDs' route
12:48:52 <andythenorth> "it's too many clicks" say the players who want to double-click to build a vehicle, click to open a menu, click to open a tab, double click to make a choice, click to another tab, double-click another choice, click to another tab, double-click another choice, then close the window
12:48:59 <andythenorth> [I elided the scrolling clicks]
12:50:10 * andythenorth fails to provide context again, let's have more coffee and be a better person (
12:50:50 <reldred> TrueBrain: Probably the only other suggestion I'd have is to make map borders: random the default. It's still in the spirit of TTD but really flexes that OpenTTD has *more to offer*
12:51:08 <reldred> Esp. with the terra genesis map generator anyway
12:52:42 <TrueBrain> I think we need someone to sit down and work out how map generator v3 should look and work :)
12:52:59 <TrueBrain> including all the bits and pieces I read today of things that should/could be improved :)
12:53:06 <andythenorth> peter concluded just use heightmaps from external landscape generators
12:53:10 <andythenorth> like world machine etc
12:53:15 <andythenorth> like...just ship a lot of pngs
12:53:19 <TrueBrain> awh, my URLs to my mapgens no longer work
12:53:44 <TrueBrain> I once got to the point you could enter coordinates, and it would generate an ingame map for you based no the real world situation
12:53:51 <reldred> You'd really need to work in some sort of preview
12:54:03 <TrueBrain> back then, processing 20GB of map data ...was a lot of data .. now it is laughable :P
12:54:06 <reldred> That's the big problem with heightmaps atm
12:54:29 <TrueBrain> reldred: nobody made a (simple) tool for that, like a webpage or anything?
12:55:26 <andythenorth> GHA wasm screenshots, per frosch's idea
12:55:36 <TrueBrain> sometimes I am surprised people didn't fix some simple stuff, but enormous complex shit people have tools for :D
12:55:51 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you say words; no clue what they mean :P
12:56:21 <andythenorth> for each heightmap on bananas, load it into a wasm preview, then generate a screenshot, and save it to bananaanaas
12:57:05 <andythenorth> I mean...it doesn't have to be wasm probably, that was just what frosch voiced an idea for
12:57:14 <TrueBrain> that can be done with anything, but yes :)
12:57:21 <TrueBrain> screenshots in general of content would be nice :)
13:06:05 * andythenorth dares to write some nml
13:06:21 <andythenorth> randomised ship colours experiment
13:06:30 <reldred> I reckon I'm gonna have a crack at m4nfo next
13:06:41 <reldred> just to be a little different
13:07:12 <reldred> and because I kinda feel bad that michael blunck has been trying to convince me to use it now for at least half a decade or more.
13:07:29 <andythenorth> it is picking up quite a bit of traction now
13:07:37 <andythenorth> due to JGR and the extended newgrf spec
13:08:03 <reldred> The JGR Cinematic Universe?
13:08:17 <andythenorth> I can't use m4nfo, I've had too many unpleasant interactions with MB
13:08:25 <andythenorth> I did consider switching
13:08:54 <reldred> Eh, I've never really had a problem with michael
13:09:14 <reldred> and oh boy, I've had a lot of problems with a lot of people in the ttd community over the years
13:09:54 <reldred> I mean I was dead set against bananas for the longest time, didn't help that someone uploaded a bunch of my stuff without my permission.
13:10:47 <andythenorth> people's gonna people
13:11:26 <reldred> well, been in this community sixteen years, I joined when I was 15/16.
13:11:30 <TrueBrain> lol .. so we broke AIs in 1.9, and didn't add the compatibility layer for it? Sad ...
13:12:00 <TrueBrain> CreateGroups got a parameter added
13:12:06 <TrueBrain> but I don't see compatibility code for it :D
13:12:26 <TrueBrain> that is not very nice
13:14:08 <TrueBrain> owh, wait, nevermind
13:14:15 <TrueBrain> I was looking at this the inverted way
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13:15:04 <TrueBrain> yeah, the bug was in my setup :D oops :)
13:16:25 <TrueBrain> can't believe I have to wait 50 ingame years to possibly reproduce a bug ...
13:17:40 <LinuxUser> Hi everyone, hoping for a bit of install advice please. I'm running Lunix Mint on an old laptop and I wanted to install OpenTTD. I see it's available in the Software Manager but it's not the latest version (currently 1.7.1). Once installed, can you update the game from within, or should I install the latest from the OpenTTD webpage?
13:18:02 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD does (currently) not support self-updating
13:18:21 <TrueBrain> additionally, distributing Linux binaries is really difficult over all the different flavours (with different library-versions)
13:18:31 <TrueBrain> so we don't have a version for Mint
13:18:50 <TrueBrain> you either have to compile it yourself (ugh), or hope one of the debian variants "just works"
13:19:10 <TrueBrain> but also, might be good to ask Mint maintainers why they are 3 years behind :D
13:20:07 <LinuxUser> Ah, ok. I'm a Linux 'newbie' and thanks to the lockdown I can't access my Win10 laptop. I struggle installing stuff let alone compiling! :)
13:20:35 <TrueBrain> well, despite 1.10.3 being better, of course, 1.7.1 isn't that bad either :)
13:20:43 <reldred> Mint is just Ubuntu, if there's ubuntu packages they'll work on Mint.
13:20:44 <TrueBrain> just joining multiplayer will be difficult
13:20:58 <TrueBrain> reldred: we have 4 versions of Ubuntu .. there is no "just" when it comes to Linux :)
13:21:01 <TrueBrain> but yeah, you can try :)
13:21:28 <reldred> Yeah, obvs. you want to go for the version your version of mint is based off.
13:21:33 <LinuxUser> Excellent, I'll see what Ubuntu one isa available. As you say worth a try :)
13:22:05 <reldred> What version of mint you running?
13:22:51 <LinuxUser> 32-bit - let me check the version number one sec
13:23:03 <andythenorth> hmm HTH do I use random_bits in nml?
13:23:57 <andythenorth> maybe I'll just pick them out with some hex
13:24:26 <reldred> Probably forked off Bionic then if it's 32bit. Try the Ubuntu Bionic 32bit LinuxUser
13:24:46 <andythenorth> maybe getbits is my friend
13:24:47 <LinuxUser> Thanks reldred I'll look it up
13:25:15 <reldred> And yessss, I was right. Package base for all Mint 19.x is Ubuntu Bionic.
13:25:57 <reldred> Mint 20 moved to Ubuntu Focal and probably dropped 32bit support like Ubuntu did.
13:26:07 <TrueBrain> 1972, and the game is already slowing down .. ugh .. 30 more years to fast-forward :P
13:26:09 <reldred> Which explains why you'd still be on Mint 19 then.
13:26:25 <LinuxUser> Linux Ubuntu Bionic 18.04 (i386, 32 bit) - Found it :)
13:27:06 <LinuxUser> Thanks for all your help guys! Have a good one!!
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13:29:55 <andythenorth> 10k nml lines of recolour sprites
13:29:58 <andythenorth> probably fine, right?
13:30:27 <reldred> alas I must retreat to the smaller internet
13:30:34 <andythenorth> it's more portable
13:31:13 <Eddi|zuHause> same procedure as last year?
13:33:27 <reldred> Gotta admit I’m really liking cloudirc. Irc on the mobile even with bouncers was always a pain in the ass
13:33:47 <Samu> now it's gone because you removed it
13:36:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8048: Path is not released, after it was reserved through another train causing a crash https://git.io/JvQtG
13:36:42 <andythenorth> but why was it there?
13:36:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8048: Path is not released, after it was reserved through another train causing a crash https://git.io/JvQtG
13:37:03 <TrueBrain> Samu: so you consider that a description? Boy .... you and I live in very different worlds
13:37:32 <TrueBrain> I especially appreciated you sneaking that into a PR claiming to fix a completely different problem
13:37:40 <TrueBrain> that really helps .. /s ;)
13:37:55 <Samu> they suggested me to do like that
13:38:05 <TrueBrain> because you already sneaked it into a single commit
13:38:15 <TrueBrain> pretty sure they were as confused then as I was now :)
13:38:26 <TrueBrain> you make it so difficult for us to review any of your PRs
13:38:31 <TrueBrain> it takes like 10 times more time than any other PR
13:39:02 <TrueBrain> often they contain random unrelated changes, things you didn't explain, things that have no relation to what you explain, etc
13:39:10 <TrueBrain> but we have told you this so many times now .... :)
13:39:57 <Samu> i thought it was related, it was about fixing costs for building docks
13:40:35 <TrueBrain> so a builder comes to your house to fix a window. He also noticed your toilet has a piece chipped off, so he removes the toilet
13:41:23 <TrueBrain> make PRs do 1 thing, and make them do it well. Document them well, test them well, be proud of the PR. Don't make PR do 10 things, have poor documentation, or have them only tested for your very specific use-case
13:43:20 <TrueBrain> as really, how "fixing cost" relates to "being able to build", is not something I can comprehend ..
13:44:02 <TrueBrain> it is very easy to make 20 shitty PRs .. it takes about as much time as to create a single good one
13:44:35 <andythenorth> or if you do, make content, not PRs for vanilla
13:44:53 <TrueBrain> holy crap andythenorth , no, don't do that :P
13:45:05 <TrueBrain> that commit message alone :D
13:45:07 <andythenorth> it's ok to inflict madness on yourself
13:45:11 <andythenorth> 1 person project
13:45:11 <TrueBrain> you knew what you were doing wrong there :P
13:45:24 <TrueBrain> can't believe you followed a commit message style for that :D
13:45:31 <andythenorth> that just increases the lol
13:45:37 <andythenorth> 'look at my diligence'
13:45:37 <TrueBrain> hahaha :) Owh, this is a perfect example, tnx :D
13:45:44 <andythenorth> I was saving it up
13:45:49 <TrueBrain> reminds me of commit messages like: "did stuff"
13:45:51 <TrueBrain> "fixed more things"
13:45:55 <andythenorth> the typos are the cherry on top
13:45:57 <reldred> Don’t ever look at my GitHub then...
13:46:12 <andythenorth> 'fixed unrelated typos becuase I noticed them'
13:46:13 <TrueBrain> reldred: it is fine if nobody has to review them :)
13:46:22 <Xaroth> the string concatenation alone is making me shudder :P
13:46:30 <andythenorth> oh and I ran black :)
13:46:37 <andythenorth> but I didn't mention that
13:46:40 <reldred> Just me a year later trying to figure out wtf was wrong with me
13:46:57 <TrueBrain> everyones worst enemy .. you of a year ago :D
13:47:04 <andythenorth> "Change: fixed stuff; ran black over entire codebase; moved to python 3"
13:47:05 <Samu> very well, i'll make a separate PR for it
13:47:05 <TrueBrain> (not you you, but you you, you get what I mean :D)
13:47:30 <TrueBrain> Samu: and it better be well documented! :)
13:47:50 <TrueBrain> programming is more than C++ :)
13:48:07 <andythenorth> oof ships are annoying
13:48:27 <TrueBrain> as in this case, I am sure in your world "clearable watered object tiles" makes total sense .. but really, wtf does it even mean :P
13:49:09 <TrueBrain> so things like that, including a savegame to show it, are pretty much mandatory for such PRs
13:49:35 <TrueBrain> and yes, that is a lot of work for very few lines
13:49:49 <TrueBrain> if you check any of my PRs as of late .. I spend more time documenting why I changed something, then I spend on the change itself
13:50:13 <TrueBrain> the fix was simple .. but boy, it requires some backstory for someone else to agree with that
13:50:55 <TrueBrain> if I want my PRs to be reviewed smoothly, I have to put in the effort that the reviewer can understand what is happening, without reading alllll the code himself too
13:51:27 <andythenorth> so I have some nice code for subtly randomising wagon company colours
13:51:35 <andythenorth> "nice' = 10k lines of sprites but eh
13:51:46 <andythenorth> I thought it would be nice for ships, but it isn't :(
13:52:07 <glx> hmm I may need to update commit messages in #8032
13:52:14 <andythenorth> because they're not directly next to each other, the randomisation isn't really noticed
13:52:17 <TrueBrain> it is smooth andythenorth , it is not bad :)
13:52:26 <TrueBrain> gives a bit more colour to the game, honestly
13:52:52 <andythenorth> it's not bad, but it's not enough :)
13:53:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge updated pull request #8340: Draft: Feature: Create Universal (x86_64 + Apple Silicon) build on macOS https://git.io/JkqLt
13:53:23 <andythenorth> hmm maybe I can paint the vehicle name on the ship
13:53:37 <andythenorth> can I have in-game sprite editing thx bai
13:54:23 <TrueBrain> glx: in error_gui.cpp, you now change a 3 second timer into a 1 second timer
13:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but, if you notice it, it wasn't subtle enough
13:54:30 <TrueBrain> meaning error messages only stay 5 seconds, instead of the 15 seconds now
13:54:38 <andythenorth> foreground is background etc
13:54:43 <glx> they stay as specified in the options :)
13:54:48 <TrueBrain> glx: not sure there is a right solution :P
13:55:02 <TrueBrain> well, tooltip says "seconds", but it was never "seconds" :D
13:55:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause so to restate the goal, the point isn't 'notice my cool recolouring callback'
13:55:29 <andythenorth> the point is 'ship instances feel a bit more individualised'
13:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: lots of places where people said "20 days" but actually it was "50 days" because the game counted in 2.5 days units
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13:58:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JLxO0
13:59:53 <TrueBrain> wait, orudge , that works? That really is all that is needed?
14:02:57 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I really do like it; it is one of those gimmick things that make things feel more alive :)
14:03:24 <andythenorth> I might force some colours to be more contrast
14:03:31 <andythenorth> or have 3 variants, not 2
14:08:16 <TrueBrain> someone just claimed it was seconds :P
14:08:19 <glx> then the help string was added later
14:08:27 <orudge> TrueBrain: well, that won't be for a universal build. This is just to make sure the ARM64 build works first.
14:09:03 <TrueBrain> orudge: fair :) I still wonder about universal builds .... we will see :D
14:09:20 <orudge> vcpkg has been updated with the newer version of cmake, though I don't know if the same version is deployed on the GitHub servers or how it is cached
14:09:28 <orudge> so let's see what happens
14:11:00 <TrueBrain> glx: even in that version, it was never seconds :D (had to check, of course :D)
14:11:19 <TrueBrain> can't blame anyone from assuming it would be, tbh
14:12:23 <TrueBrain> I was thinking we could just rename the setting and really do make it seconds ... worst people go like: heh? Didn't I set this to NNN?!
14:13:27 <glx> btw I like your suggestion for duration timer
14:14:28 <TrueBrain> a tiny bit more work, but worth it I think :)
14:14:40 <TrueBrain> hmm ... why can't I send this truck to a truck station?! NewGRFs confuse me
14:15:18 <TrueBrain> doesn't look like it
14:15:38 <TrueBrain> the highlighted one
14:15:42 <TrueBrain> can only go to a pass-through stop
14:16:01 <andythenorth> did we not fix the error message?
14:16:10 <TrueBrain> how can I tell it is articulated?
14:16:43 <TrueBrain> and boy, that does look very ugly (sorry to say)
14:16:48 <andythenorth> from the buy menu, you have no clue
14:16:55 <TrueBrain> I must stop looking at that
14:17:07 <TrueBrain> owh boy, that looks VERY weird
14:17:18 <TrueBrain> this game is not build for that kind of animation
14:17:39 <TrueBrain> I cannot handle this set
14:17:45 <andythenorth> try Timberwolf's
14:17:56 <TrueBrain> error btw is: "vehicle can't go to that station"
14:18:01 <TrueBrain> no detail on what the issue is
14:18:06 <TrueBrain> confusing as fuck, I can tell you
14:18:23 <TrueBrain> if I wouldn't have you, I would have removed it and just thought: what-ever, stupid game
14:18:48 <andythenorth> it's remarkable how many players we actually have :)
14:18:56 <TrueBrain> my problem with these articulated vehicles, they detach in corners
14:19:09 <TrueBrain> which makes me go: OWH NO!!!!
14:19:25 <TrueBrain> especially in an U-turn, one part is still going the wrong way :D
14:19:33 <andythenorth> it's quite jarring?
14:19:45 <TrueBrain> sorry, I know, lot of hard work goes into stuff like this, but boy .. this game was not made for these animations
14:19:49 <andythenorth> in newgrf done > perfection very often
14:20:07 <andythenorth> 10/8 sprites are also weird in turns
14:20:13 <andythenorth> don't even look at the long ships :P
14:20:25 <andythenorth> they clip nearby houses etc
14:20:52 <andythenorth> ha complete detach
14:21:09 <andythenorth> "I just draw them"
14:22:04 <TrueBrain> I doubt we can blame the NewGRF for this .. I am afraid it is more the game doing shitty stuff
14:22:41 <andythenorth> reimplement as hovercraft?
14:22:50 <TrueBrain> as I said, I cannot watch this .. :P
14:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: the NewGRF can make this worse if their sprites are misaligned to the bounding box
14:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, U-Turns are the worst
14:29:23 <andythenorth> I suspect Hog is misaligned
14:29:39 <andythenorth> for years I have been aligning sprites with the displayed bounding box (ctrl-B)
14:29:46 <andythenorth> but last year or so I learned that is wrong
14:30:28 <TrueBrain> anyway, the set looks awesome .. just the game allows it to glitch too much :P
14:30:33 <andythenorth> I have had it explained to me multiple times, but I am just a bit dense about some ideas
14:30:42 <TrueBrain> disallow-90-degree-turns for RVs?! :D
14:30:43 <andythenorth> like...I see a bounding box, so I align the sprite with it
14:31:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably fine with / and \ views, but | and – are ... special
14:31:30 <TrueBrain> this was always the case btw .. it is funny how much bigger busses get in the | and -
14:31:40 <andythenorth> no it's wrong for \ and / also
14:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also some weirdness with "we moved the bounding box to the center of the [shortened] vehicle, but tried to move the anchor point back to not break old grfs
14:33:20 <andythenorth> but that was the result after peter told me how wrong the older version was
14:33:43 <andythenorth> previous version tried to place sprite more inside the box
14:34:29 <TrueBrain> wtf is OrderBackup, and do I care .. hmm
14:34:58 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i think that's when you sell a vehicle and immediately buy a new one, it gets the old order list back
14:35:11 <TrueBrain> ah, that would make sense, I guess
14:36:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (you lose the order list if you close the depot, or sell another vehicle)
14:37:52 <TrueBrain> okay, and implicit orders update themselves, that is nice
14:38:43 <TrueBrain> to fix a bug I have to change RemoveOrderFromAllVehicles to also allow removing orders of a single vehicle type
14:38:49 <TrueBrain> but this "All" is in there :P
14:39:02 <TrueBrain> guess I should rename it :P
14:42:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7972: Impossible/invalid orders aren't marked as such in the order list https://git.io/JvGub
14:45:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8514: Change: Allow to build dock on clearable watered object tiles https://git.io/JLxsA
14:48:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JvruE
14:52:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8514: Change: Allow to build dock on clearable watered object tiles https://git.io/JLxGl
14:54:24 <supermop_Home> TrueBrain in TTO that was the only thing keeping you sane when trying to replace old vehicles
14:56:21 <TrueBrain> wait, you are still sane? You don't belong here! We are all not sane in here! :D
14:56:41 <TrueBrain> glx: that looks nice, the error timer :D I am still annoyed by the 3-ish second thing :P
14:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i'm pretty sure i've never met a sane person in my entire life
14:56:53 <TrueBrain> but also still no clue what we can do about it :)
14:59:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7972: Impossible/invalid orders aren't marked as such in the order list https://git.io/JvGub
15:01:39 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i think we should take a step back and look at it from a higher angle
15:02:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7972: Impossible/invalid orders aren't marked as such in the order list https://git.io/JvGub
15:03:12 <supermop_Home> TrueBrain maybe i was still sane in 1994
15:03:35 <TrueBrain> I always hope Eddi|zuHause is still typing after such comments, but often I notice he isn't :D
15:05:58 <Eddi|zuHause> sorry, i took a step back from the keyboard :p
15:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'll type some thoughts in the ticket
15:08:58 * andythenorth has concerns about lunch
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15:09:25 <supermop_Home> go for a ploughman's
15:09:29 *** ekangmonyet has joined #openttd
15:10:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8515: Fix: don't allow cloning vehicles if cloning orders is failing https://git.io/JLxZZ
15:10:28 <supermop_Home> late for lunch there isn't it?
15:10:30 <TrueBrain> at least I could partially fix the thing I found most annoying .. but by no means it fixes the issue
15:11:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7972: Impossible/invalid orders aren't marked as such in the order list https://git.io/JvGub
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15:12:26 <TrueBrain> orudge: for releases we indeed use a macos agent that is in beta
15:12:30 <TrueBrain> and it seems they don't have that many
15:12:40 <TrueBrain> so indeed, retrying is the only solution ..
15:12:49 <TrueBrain> you can also try downgrading to 10.13 I believe
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15:12:59 <TrueBrain> they have more of those available
15:13:05 <TrueBrain> but I don't know the impact of this
15:13:13 <TrueBrain> the CI uses the old macos runners
15:13:25 <orudge> I think 11.0 is needed for arm64, though it might work on the 10.13 - depends on what xcode version is installed
15:13:46 <TrueBrain> 10.15 is the old one
15:14:12 <andythenorth> ok I have overlooked combining 1CC and 2CC with this randomisation
15:14:18 <andythenorth> 10k lines of sprites won't be enough
15:14:26 <andythenorth> I need 160k lines, and some help with maths
15:19:21 <glx> TrueBrain: you may want to unlink #7972 from #8515 ;)
15:19:47 <Samu> i making void tiles flood the edge tiles instead of the tiles flooding themselves
15:20:20 <Samu> at least, all the flood code stays in one place
15:20:21 <TrueBrain> glx: lol "not fix" ... I added <!-- --> to make it not link :D
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15:23:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8515: Fix: don't allow cloning vehicles if cloning orders is failing https://git.io/JLxnm
15:25:31 <TrueBrain> just the double spaces are annoying me :P
15:25:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7972: Impossible/invalid orders aren't marked as such in the order list https://git.io/JvGub
15:28:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7972: Impossible/invalid orders aren't marked as such in the order list https://git.io/JvGub
15:29:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7972: Impossible/invalid orders aren't marked as such in the order list https://git.io/JvGub
15:29:52 <TrueBrain> good luck reaching that URL
15:29:55 <TrueBrain> no clue what my client did there :P
15:30:21 <TrueBrain> but that is an old problem :P
15:36:04 <FLHerne> You should see the JGR version
15:37:14 <andythenorth> yes but players love it
15:38:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8516: Fix #7972: show invalid orders to stations that don't accept your vehicle https://git.io/JLxcf
15:38:21 <TrueBrain> I love this fix .. it is really tiny :)
15:40:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8516: Fix #7972: show invalid orders to stations that don't accept your vehicle https://git.io/JLxcf
15:40:20 <TrueBrain> mandatory second push, because ...
15:41:56 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Perhaps you should add a "(Station Removed)" string to the current invalid-order?
15:42:01 <milek7> trying to read that red text burns my eyes :P
15:42:07 <FLHerne> Actually, would just changing the string work?
15:42:13 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: the station is not removed; just the part this engine can go :)
15:42:47 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: I mean, for the case that's shown in red text before your patch
15:43:04 <TrueBrain> the "(invalid order)" after you completely removed a station?
15:43:13 <TrueBrain> there are more routes that could lead to a dummy order
15:43:18 <TrueBrain> so that might not be trivial
15:43:33 <TrueBrain> (removing depots, waypoints, hangars, ..)
15:43:55 <FLHerne> Ok, <thing> removed, but then you have to know what <thing> was...
15:43:56 <TrueBrain> I am not against such change btw, but that is something for another PR I guess :)
15:44:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7972: Impossible/invalid orders aren't marked as such in the order list https://git.io/JvGub
15:44:57 <TrueBrain> (and yes, as people noticed all day: when I am fixing bugs, I am pretty much fixing the bug, not the other 10 things I find wrong surrounding it :D)
15:45:36 <TrueBrain> like this is the second bug on which I get the response: REWRITE THE WHOLE THING :P :P :D
15:45:58 <TrueBrain> I have 3 other huge features I would rather work on :D
15:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> great. now i started up that game...
15:46:33 <andythenorth> also...rewrite fallacy
15:46:35 <TrueBrain> you only have yourself to blame :)
15:46:38 <Eddi|zuHause> should i actually play? :p
15:46:49 <TrueBrain> bah, I disabled that :P
15:47:04 <Eddi|zuHause> do we have @8ball? :p
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15:48:43 <TrueBrain> I made supybot a whitelist, with very few commands on the list ...
15:48:46 <LordAro> TrueBrain: are you at least writing down the other wrong things you find :p
15:48:50 <TrueBrain> as supybot was annoying me, how many stupid commands it has
15:49:01 <TrueBrain> LordAro: nope! As the issue-tracker wouldn't be able to handle it
15:49:35 <TrueBrain> but really, if you play the game after not having played it for years, you spot a lot of: WTF?!
15:49:59 <TrueBrain> like: why can't I send this truck to a truck station?!
15:50:11 <TrueBrain> but seemly nobody had that question, so it must be only me having that issue :)
15:51:08 <TrueBrain> 23 open things to do for 1.11, 9 of which just require approvals on 5 PRs :D
15:51:31 <TrueBrain> 4 with some minor work from their authors
15:51:52 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> but seemly nobody had that question, so it must be only me having that issue :) <-- you haven't read the forum in that time either, right? :p
15:52:04 <LordAro> TrueBrain: why couldn't you send that truck to a truck station? :p
15:52:12 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: forum? Do we have one?
15:52:24 <TrueBrain> LordAro: it was articulated or something ... which the game didn't tell me .. like .. at all
15:52:43 <TrueBrain> just don't use NewGRFs and you are fine
15:53:06 <TrueBrain> I see no reason why an articulated vehicle can't get in a truck stop btw ...
15:54:02 <TrueBrain> but yeah, I can spend literally days on polishing OpenTTD .. so many rough edges when you come in "fresh"
15:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds optimistic by several orders of magnitude :p
15:55:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8517: Codechange: Make void tiles flood edge tiles, instead of edge tiles flooding themselves https://git.io/JLxCt
15:56:25 <TrueBrain> Samu: another word of the wise: if you make more PRs in a project than the maintainers can review and merge/close, you are not doing yourself any favours
15:58:10 <TrueBrain> if you in a week make 10 new PRs, and only 2 get reviewed / closed / merged ... you are not helping a project
15:58:18 <TrueBrain> especially if you do that week in week out
16:00:05 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge updated pull request #8340: Draft: Feature: Create Universal (x86_64 + Apple Silicon) build on macOS https://git.io/JkqLt
16:00:13 <Samu> hmm, if i make too few, im told to split, if i make many, im told not to make many :(
16:00:37 <TrueBrain> as in the rest of life, there is a balance to be made
16:00:52 <TrueBrain> and those 2 things you mention, have little to do with each other
16:01:01 <TrueBrain> you have to split them, as they have no relation with each other
16:01:26 <TrueBrain> and you are flooding us, without contributing in any other way .. we cannot be your puppet that only has time to only review your PRs :)
16:01:28 <andythenorth> Samu also you get lots of conflicting advice in open source
16:01:33 <TrueBrain> it is almost our fulltime job .. which is not okay ;)
16:02:00 <TrueBrain> it becomes rather unrealistic of you to expect us to review them all
16:02:05 <TrueBrain> you have to find a balance what you PR
16:02:12 <TrueBrain> wait till the PRs you have open are processed
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16:02:36 <TrueBrain> or find other ways to help out; there is more than just creating code :P
16:03:02 <andythenorth> reviewing PRs :P
16:03:05 <andythenorth> deleting code :P
16:03:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8340: Draft: Feature: Create Universal (x86_64 + Apple Silicon) build on macOS https://git.io/JLxCz
16:04:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge updated pull request #8340: Draft: Feature: Create Universal (x86_64 + Apple Silicon) build on macOS https://git.io/JkqLt
16:04:24 <TrueBrain> at work I used to put people on a quota .. if you have 5 open PRs, your next job cannot be to create a 6th. It has to be some other work, like reviewing other peoples work, updating documentation, triaging issues, etc
16:06:00 <andythenorth> Samu most software is just management :P
16:06:14 <TrueBrain> I am already draining the review quota for OpenTTD .. but at least I am fixing bugs I did not create myself, or that nobody knew was a bug :P :P
16:06:52 <TrueBrain> bah, my English sentences are still terrible; deal with it :P
16:06:56 <Eddi|zuHause> software development is 10% writing new stuff, and 90% desperately trying to keep together the stuff that is already there
16:07:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge commented on pull request #8340: Draft: Feature: Create Universal (x86_64 + Apple Silicon) build on macOS https://git.io/JLxCw
16:07:12 <andythenorth> that ignores 60% meetings
16:07:19 <andythenorth> and 30% wondering why the toolchain doesn't work
16:07:25 <andythenorth> and 10% cat videos
16:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you can drop 50% of those 60% meetings
16:07:42 <andythenorth> or watch cat videos in them
16:07:55 <TrueBrain> orudge: vcpkg action code is kinda hiding behind another repo .. really annoying to find what things do, I noticed too :D
16:08:08 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: do that long enough, and you have no meetings :)
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16:08:18 <andythenorth> how many recolour sprites do I need if I'm handling 2CC and 1CC remapping?
16:08:23 * andythenorth can't basic maths
16:08:37 <TrueBrain> how many chicken can I put in my belly before I fall over ... I am about to find out! :)
16:08:55 <andythenorth> chickens, chicken wings, or chicken nuggets?
16:09:14 <TrueBrain> well, it is 400grams total ..
16:09:15 <orudge> well, if this does work, then I'll try flipping that flag and we can go with that instead
16:09:20 <TrueBrain> pretty sure I can eat that myself
16:09:35 <TrueBrain> orudge: yeah, exactly :) Trial and error :D
16:09:49 <TrueBrain> if you don't want to push in the branch that is linked to your PR, you can just push to any other branch btw
16:09:50 <Samu> alright, im not doing any more PRs until you review the existing ones.
16:09:55 <TrueBrain> the release workflow will just work orudge :)
16:10:20 <Samu> will try to keep 5 or 6 open max
16:10:27 <TrueBrain> Samu: would be appreciated; just to put in context, 20+% of the open PRs are yours ;)
16:11:31 <TrueBrain> and they do take extra effort from our side, as we have to validate your claims etc. Which is totally fine, but you have to prioritize what you think is important to add to OpenTTD more :)
16:11:58 <TrueBrain> most of us devs have 20+ branches in our local repository, because we didn't consider them important enough to make PR-ready
16:12:08 <TrueBrain> that is absolutely normal and okay
16:13:16 <TrueBrain> Samu: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8517 <- how I read this PR, you just spotted a silly glitch, and made a PR for it. What I always wonder: does it matter? How many people will notice? How important is this? Is it worth 2 hours of my time to review this? Something you do have to balance
16:13:33 <TrueBrain> (you, as author of a PR)
16:14:07 <TrueBrain> currently, as it stands, I put this as number #55 on my list of PRs to review, all the way at the bottom :) Not because it might be bad, or wrong .. just, because I do not think anyone would notice, and I can spend my 2 hours better on other things atm :)
16:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> to be fair, i did notice that some (many) years ago :)
16:14:53 <TrueBrain> but you classified it as bug priority -10000 and never bothered to make an issue, I guess? :D
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16:17:45 <TrueBrain> "Excluding merges, 13 authors have pushed 49 commits to master" <- this week :)
16:17:53 <TrueBrain> "On master, 131 files have changed and there have been 2,217 additions and 2,269 deletions. "
16:18:06 * andythenorth oh I already generated all the recolour sprites I need
16:18:10 <andythenorth> I just did it wrong
16:18:27 <TrueBrain> last month, we did 100 PRs and 51 issues
16:18:29 <andythenorth> take away my coding license
16:18:40 <TrueBrain> wait, you need a license to code?
16:18:44 <andythenorth> you don't have one?
16:19:01 <andythenorth> and you won't be able to get one now due to Covid
16:19:28 <TrueBrain> translator did 25% of the commits the last 30 days
16:19:43 <andythenorth> translator used to be 98% of commits
16:19:52 <TrueBrain> don't make this a negative thing!
16:19:54 <LordAro> yeah, 25% is super low ;p
16:19:57 <TrueBrain> I was enjoying the positive!
16:20:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you win some you lose some :p
16:20:31 <andythenorth> this is golden age
16:21:15 <TrueBrain> okay, so I need to make 1000 commits more to beat frosch ....
16:21:28 <TrueBrain> it just isn't fair .. NoAI, 1 commit
16:21:43 <TrueBrain> he is just cheating!
16:22:54 <andythenorth> oof eddi has more commits than me
16:22:56 <TrueBrain> Contributions: Additions, clearly show when those events happen :P
16:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> how did that happen?
16:23:16 <TrueBrain> right, chicken time
16:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> also that's not counting the dozen or so svn commits "based on patch by eddi"
16:24:09 <LordAro> how many of those are actually authored by me, i wonder
16:25:37 <andythenorth> FIRS 6369 commits :P
16:25:46 <andythenorth> "Change: some pixels"
16:28:03 <Timberwolf> Road Vehicles has a commit for "fixes of unknown nature", which is confidence-inspiring.
16:30:25 <TrueBrain> LordAro: it counts authored, so it misses commits you committed (and possibly modified)
16:30:36 <TrueBrain> So it is the lower bar, basically :D
16:41:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge updated pull request #8340: Draft: Feature: Create Universal (x86_64 + Apple Silicon) build on macOS https://git.io/JkqLt
16:42:02 <andythenorth> oof maths for offsetting into recolour sprites :P
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16:42:58 <Eddi|zuHause> <grm-base-value> + <cc-number>?
16:43:19 <glx> orudge: I think with doNotUpdateVcpkg it also needs a specific commit
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16:45:36 <glx> or maybe not, I can't remember what I tested during the CI move
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17:19:50 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8514: Change: Allow to build dock on clearable watered object tiles https://git.io/JLxB1
17:26:24 <andythenorth> I like black, but it makes some maths very hard to read
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17:29:47 <frosch123> TrueBrain: you can replace the error message duration with a on/off setting: do you want to read error messages, or do you want them to vanish as fast as possible
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17:31:09 <glx> when set to 0 they are not shown at all (unless critical)
17:31:35 <frosch123> i mute all sounds, so some red flickering is a welcome notification :p
17:39:41 <andythenorth> is this valid nml? and valid maths? :P return custom_ship_recolour_sprites + (16 * 1) + company_colour2
17:42:37 <glx> custom_ship_recolour_sprites is a switch ?
17:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't sound like very sane maths
17:43:06 <andythenorth> it's a recolour sprite
17:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> should be valid nml, if custom-ship_recolour_sprites is a parameter (grm result)
17:43:24 <andythenorth> company_colour2 is a var
17:43:47 <andythenorth> it doesn't fail anyway, but the results are...unexpected
17:43:53 <glx> yeah if it was a switch nml syntax would error
17:43:58 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the (16*1) supposed to mean?
17:44:12 <supermop_Home> recoloring ships?
17:45:33 <andythenorth> it's an offset into the sprites
17:45:43 <andythenorth> there are another 32 of these
17:46:36 <andythenorth> I'll do the maths in python, cleaner output
17:57:36 <andythenorth> lol 10 mins hunting a non-existent bug because company colour caching is aggressive :)
18:03:44 <Xaroth> andythenorth: if black makes your math too hard to read, it's likely that you should rephrase it a bit ;)
18:04:05 <andythenorth> but then I'm rearranging me to suit the tool
18:04:27 <Xaroth> also, a list of a keys() to find an index?
18:04:46 <Xaroth> not all python implementations promise consistency in dict keys/items/values
18:05:04 <Xaroth> i.e. it could become [1,2,3] or [2,3,1] in some implementations
18:05:17 <andythenorth> people have to move on :)
18:06:03 <andythenorth> I was stuck at work on 2.4 for what seemed like 10 years
18:06:19 <Xaroth> but I would definitely rewrite those few lines
18:06:49 <Xaroth> move the index fetching out of it
18:08:02 <andythenorth> I've spent 15 years teaching myself to stop doing that :P
18:08:09 <andythenorth> this isn't 'my first flash game' :)
18:08:17 <andythenorth> "let's var everything"
18:08:32 <Xaroth> you've spent 15 years to learn to make unreadable code? :P
18:08:51 <andythenorth> I've spent 15 years learning not to include pointless abstractions
18:08:59 <andythenorth> when one line of python can be scanned in one line
18:09:07 <andythenorth> black seems to throw all that out of the window
18:09:48 <Xaroth> black is of the opinion that cluttering a single line of code with too much different operations is unreadable, and should be on separate lines
18:09:52 <andythenorth> can't even tell what it's supposed to do
18:10:50 <andythenorth> it would be easier to read if I wasn't calling list() on the keys
18:11:08 <andythenorth> why am I even doing that, are keys not an iterable with index()?
18:12:56 <Xaroth> .keys/values/items return values are special
18:13:59 <Xaroth> afaik they return the actual references to the keys/values
18:14:04 <Xaroth> rather than a copy of that
18:14:24 <Xaroth> that's why they force you to list() it to do stuff with it
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18:20:14 <Wolf01> And now a friend raised a question: why superscript numbers (¹²³) in ascii table are in wrong order?
18:21:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: index() on dict keys() ? isn't that random?
18:21:17 <andythenorth> not in python 3.something
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18:22:18 <frosch123> oh, insertion order
18:22:28 <LordAro> still a bit of a weird thing to do
18:22:32 <andythenorth> I could do the old style list of 2-tuples
18:22:43 <andythenorth> but $someone somewhere said get with the program
18:22:51 <frosch123> LordAro: i think microsoft unordered_set does the same :)
18:23:36 <andythenorth> unpacking ((a, b), (c, d)) is fun but eh
18:23:53 <LordAro> frosch123: well, iirc, it was a cpython implementation detail in 3.6
18:24:07 <frosch123> that's what andy's link says
18:24:08 <andythenorth> I tried the OrderedDict thing somewhere, but it's one more import to faff with
18:24:44 <andythenorth> I am going to blame TB for my choices as he will be full of chicken and unable to remember what was said
18:25:31 <frosch123> tb full of chicken? did he get a cheap deal on left-over christmas-birds?
18:25:59 <andythenorth> it does look weird though eh, list(foo.keys()).index('bar')
18:26:07 <andythenorth> why not just foo.index(bar)?
18:26:32 <LordAro> i'd question why you're trying to treat it as an ordereddict at all
18:26:41 <frosch123> i guess sorted(foo.keys()).index(bar) is not what you want?
18:27:02 <andythenorth> LordAro because the order is significant
18:27:26 <andythenorth> and a dict is less ugly to work with than a list of 2-tuples
18:27:33 <andythenorth> potato / potato though
18:27:33 <Xaroth> you might want to put some checks to make sure you're running py3.7 at least.
18:27:51 <Xaroth> or fall back to OrderedDict on older versions, but /shrug
18:28:38 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:30:06 <LordAro> list(foo.keys()).index(bar) it is then
18:30:16 <LordAro> split it out into a separate variable if you want to :p
18:30:51 <Xaroth> Your comment also doesn't match your var names, but that's a bit pedantic
18:31:16 <Xaroth> and fstrings might work well with this
18:31:18 <andythenorth> no that's a good spot thanks
18:31:51 <Xaroth> and 'is' on int comparisons.. it works, but not advised
18:32:19 <Xaroth> but only because you're comparing to an int that's interned :P
18:32:28 <Xaroth> (-5 - 255 is interned, the rest is not)
18:33:40 <andythenorth> 'black considered useful'
18:42:34 <frosch123> haha, if you keep the difference so small, some people may never notice :)
18:44:14 <andythenorth> yeah I'm unconvinced so far
18:44:37 <andythenorth> ships really need some kind of randomisation
18:44:49 <andythenorth> when you have a group of e.g. 10 or 20 all same, it's boring
18:45:58 <frosch123> make them rusty in different positions? :p
18:46:39 <andythenorth> grows the sprite count horribly :P
18:47:22 <andythenorth> can we have procedural painting directly in game?
18:50:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8492: Fix: Don't allow towns to terraform certain floodable tiles https://git.io/JLdA0
18:50:52 <andythenorth> 4096 spritelayers, each layer has 1 pixel sprite :P
18:51:02 <andythenorth> 'procedural painting'
18:52:46 <supermop_Home> make a brown splotch but a big chain of switches to position it?
18:53:30 <andythenorth> there are old ideas about dirt increasing between services
18:56:56 <TrueBrain> are my PRs reviewed yet? Awh :(
18:58:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8515: Fix: don't allow cloning vehicles if cloning orders is failing https://git.io/JLxZZ
19:02:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JLxgt
19:02:14 <frosch123> i got access to a great website :) "for security reasons your password may not contain <, > or =". but the initial generated one contained those, and now i cannot change password :p
19:02:36 <TrueBrain> lolz ... "security reasons" my ass :P
19:04:26 <frosch123> maybe they store them in an excel table, and excel may render them as html
19:04:41 <frosch123> ah, yeah, excel also explains the "="
19:04:45 <frosch123> i was wondering about that
19:05:07 <andythenorth> they're keeping them in plain text
19:05:31 <andythenorth> so access control is does form.password.value == database.passwords.username
19:05:43 <andythenorth> and they can't have comparison operators
19:06:00 <Xaroth> btw andythenorth, `for line in file:` also works instead of readlines()
19:06:21 <Xaroth> and if you're using 3.7+, you don't need codecs.open to open with a certain encoding.
19:06:27 <andythenorth> is there a 'with' version or something also?
19:06:34 <andythenorth> I don't seem to be closing the file
19:06:39 <TrueBrain> < > are not valid because they are afraid they are HTML escapes that they forgot to encode properly, and = is not allowed as they check if the password is base64 encoded by checking for a = in the string .. I think that is more realistic, for websites which such statements :P
19:06:50 <Xaroth> with open(path, mode, encoding="utf-8"):
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19:16:25 <LordAro> reasonably certain utf-8 is the default now
19:16:53 <TrueBrain> you are .. correct! :D
19:19:31 <milek7> " The default encoding is platform dependent (whatever locale.getpreferredencoding() returns),"
19:20:44 <frosch123> so it is cp1252 on windows?
19:20:57 <frosch123> and utf-8 on everything else?
19:23:19 <milek7> that depends on windows settings
19:24:56 <andythenorth> Xaroth thanks, improved those
19:25:58 <TrueBrain> saying it is not utf-8 is very pedantic :) Since Python 3.6 Windows defaults to UTF-8, on MacOS it was already UTF-8 and Linux .. well, only people who like shooting themselves in the foot are non-utf8 :)
19:26:13 <TrueBrain> most Python3 programmers have been leaving out the encoding for a long time now :P
19:27:06 <TrueBrain> you basically have to get out of your way to get it non-utf8 .. not sure andythenorth should care about that :)
19:27:38 <frosch123> is it just me, or is that platform way too new to have encoding issues?
19:27:49 <LordAro> milek7: i'm pretty sure default changed to utf-8 even on windows for 3.8 or 3.9 orsomething
19:28:16 <TrueBrain> it basically says: fuck you all :)
19:28:16 <frosch123> did they hire old ms or java people, who thought ucs2 is a thing?
19:29:29 <TrueBrain> well, you will be shocked how many PEPs are wasted on encoding over different OSes :P
19:29:54 <frosch123> oh, some insurances run machines which do not even know about ascii
19:31:13 <TrueBrain> default != your configuration :)
19:32:07 <andythenorth> do we know how to reload GS yet?
19:32:17 * andythenorth considered reloading last autosave
19:32:27 <andythenorth> and hoping that saveload in the GS is not the broken part
19:33:17 <TrueBrain> but in case of doubt, start with -X UTF8 :P
19:33:59 <milek7> TrueBrain: I'm not sure why you are trying to argue facts here
19:34:07 <milek7> for most windows users (who have not gone out of their way to set PYTHONUTF8) default encoding is not utf8
19:35:22 * andythenorth looks at the PRs
19:35:26 <andythenorth> PRs look back :(
19:35:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: drawing more eye icons? :p
19:35:53 <andythenorth> do we need more?
19:36:08 <andythenorth> ok let's rip the plaster off the low numbers
19:36:15 <andythenorth> do I make a test grf or not?
19:36:24 <frosch123> i'll finish that during the weekend
19:36:36 <frosch123> fix the stuff with intention, delete the stuff without intention
19:36:55 <andythenorth> ok I can make a test grf (will be bloated due to being Iron Horse)
19:37:00 <andythenorth> and I can make a savegame
19:37:07 <andythenorth> or we could write an nml example for it
19:37:18 <andythenorth> which might be preferable, but more boring
19:37:39 <frosch123> did someone already write nml regressions for old/new produce syntax?
19:38:09 <andythenorth> I wrote some examples which were declared 'not great'
19:38:14 * andythenorth looks in tests also
19:38:30 <milek7> >Since Python 3.6 Windows defaults to UTF-8
19:38:39 <milek7> if by that you mean PEP529, that only applied to filesystem paths
19:38:49 <milek7> "Notably, this does not impact the encoding of the contents of files. These will continue to default to locale.getpreferredencoding() (for text files) or plain bytes (for binary files). This only affects the encoding used when users pass a bytes object to Python where it is then passed to the operating system as a path name."
19:43:44 <frosch123> did someone figure out what the examples were meant for?
19:48:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8513: Fix: for arctic and tropic, make sure we have at least a few hills https://git.io/JLxal
19:49:08 <andythenorth> frosch123 [I don't know emoji]
19:49:18 <andythenorth> FLHerne made a commit though
19:49:20 <LordAro> milek7: ah, that'll be it
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20:11:31 <Samu> TrueBrain, #8513 is gonna break #8404
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20:21:58 <TrueBrain> LordAro: boy, 8055 is indeed a tough one, I get what you meant last time I asked about that :) Also a lot of double-code to ensure it really cannot be opened etc :P funny :)
20:22:12 <TrueBrain> Samu: would it generate a merge conflict? yes. Does it "break" it? no.
20:22:31 <glx> conflicts happen, often fun to fix :)
20:22:45 <Samu> but even without the conflict, it's going to be counterproductive
20:24:06 <TrueBrain> flawless argumentation there :P Not sure what you are aiming at :D
20:26:13 <TrueBrain> so if max-road is set to 0, you can't build roads, so you cannot help towns grown, unless you know about a GUI setting .. hmm
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20:26:33 <TrueBrain> I like the screenshot in 8063, that looks like much better feedback to the user
20:26:46 <Samu> your PR sets map height based on snow line height, so it forces terrain above snow. mine's approach sets the snow line height after the generation is done.
20:27:02 <TrueBrain> so what is the problem? :)
20:27:32 <Samu> it becomes kind of pointless
20:27:34 <andythenorth> one prevents broken
20:27:43 <andythenorth> one tries to put lipstick on the broken pig
20:27:59 <andythenorth> this is just the fruit of experience
20:28:01 <TrueBrain> so any pending PR we have prevents any fix surrounding similar code? I am honestly not sure what you are aiming at here Samu
20:28:05 <TrueBrain> that you want your PR reviewed? Is that it?
20:28:56 <TrueBrain> really not sure what point becomes pointless, honestly
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20:30:49 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JvruE
20:31:14 <glx> temporary third commit, will squash in first if ok :)
20:31:41 <TrueBrain> Samu: how so? How does mine invalidate yours?
20:32:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JLxwy
20:32:49 <TrueBrain> glx: personally, I wouldn't make it that complicated. Why not just do if (hundredth_tick_timeout == 0 && !_network_dedicated) ?
20:33:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8063: Fix #8055: Always allow building any available roadtypes, even if there are no road vehicles available https://git.io/JLxw9
20:33:26 <Samu> because you set the heigh to be above the snow line, while mine tries to set the snow line based on the generated terrain. Yours will always have snow, so there's no point in trying to determine a snow level afterwards
20:34:04 <TrueBrain> glx: I personally think that is easier to read, but it might fully be me :)
20:34:23 <frosch123> there are so many bs comments in 8063...
20:34:48 <TrueBrain> Samu: that is only true if your PR tried to solve the wrong thing. I assumed it wanted to solve setting the snow line height manually, and just find a nice automated value
20:35:01 <TrueBrain> that is valid before and after my PR; my PR only fixes things looking shitty right now
20:35:36 <glx> yeah auto snow should still work I think
20:35:52 <TrueBrain> it is at least something to consider; I haven't formed an opinion about it :)
20:36:20 <glx> and TrueBrain's PR fix the non automatic stuff
20:37:02 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I was thinking of enabling all toolbars, and adding what the image in 8063 shows; I think that is a lot better than disabling the icon as it currently is anyway
20:37:13 <glx> like if you manually set silly snow level it will try to generate a working map I think
20:37:15 <TrueBrain> for trams I was rather confused the first time, like: why can't I click this .. do I need to forward time? :D
20:37:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8513: Fix: for arctic and tropic, make sure we have at least a few hills https://git.io/JLxrv
20:37:46 <frosch123> TrueBrain: what is the difference between that and setting "disable_unsuitable_building" to false?
20:38:16 <TrueBrain> frosch123: the latter gives no visual feedback to the user he has no road vehicles available
20:38:22 <TrueBrain> you can even build bus-stops etc
20:38:57 <TrueBrain> so by disabling the bus-stop buttons + a small text telling why, might help the user a lot, my reasoning goes
20:39:31 <TrueBrain> (but my reasoning might be flawed, ofc!)
20:39:37 <frosch123> do the same for canals then :)
20:39:43 <TrueBrain> for all toolbars, yes
20:39:58 <frosch123> for road and rail it is harder
20:40:08 <frosch123> roadtypes and railtypes have introduction conditions
20:40:23 <TrueBrain> yeah .. can you request to the game if they will become available?
20:40:27 <TrueBrain> is there such a callback?
20:40:57 <frosch123> for railtypes it's easy. they become available if there is a vehicle that can drive on them, and some minimum year is reached
20:41:47 <frosch123> roadtypes have that "default road" anomaly. it was a hot topic 5 years ago, i don't think nrt specified any behavior
20:41:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8516: Fix #7972: show invalid orders to stations that don't accept your vehicle https://git.io/JLxrG
20:42:16 <TrueBrain> what do you mean, "default road" anomaly?
20:42:51 <frosch123> if there are no trains, no railtype is available. if there are no roadvehicles, towns still need *some* road
20:43:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8512: Several mistakes with ending-year and extreme values https://git.io/JLxr8
20:43:17 <frosch123> no idea what identifies that "town road type"
20:43:36 <frosch123> trams are easy again. no trams available, no tramtypes available
20:43:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8516: Fix #7972: show invalid orders to stations that don't accept your vehicle https://git.io/JLxr0
20:44:14 <TrueBrain> ideally, what I would like to do, is present two strings: either there are no tramtypes available, not now, not ever
20:44:18 <TrueBrain> or, there are tramtypes available, just not now
20:45:08 <TrueBrain> LordAro: honestly, I just looked at the Order GUI and was like: this is already a mess, let's add to it :P I would rather solve it differently, but I didn't know how :)
20:45:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JvruE
20:45:37 <TrueBrain> I considered leaving out the "non-stop" etc, but that was weird too
20:45:47 <frosch123> TrueBrain: no idea what you mean. if there are no trams, all entries in the dropdown are disabled
20:45:50 <TrueBrain> just making them red, but that was missing visual feedback
20:45:54 <LordAro> TrueBrain: yeah, that's fair :)
20:46:07 <TrueBrain> frosch123: what I mean is, there is a difference between no trams available now, and no trams available at all
20:46:13 <TrueBrain> as in: did you forget to install a NewGRF?
20:46:34 <TrueBrain> LordAro: if you have other ideas, I would really like that :)
20:46:56 <frosch123> but why does that matter?
20:47:09 <frosch123> do you want to allow building *some* tramtype when there are no trams?
20:47:15 <frosch123> extending the road anomaly to trams?
20:47:26 <TrueBrain> okay, so we were talking about 2 different things I see :D
20:47:52 <TrueBrain> I now get what you mean
20:47:52 <glx> oh and moving hundredth_tick to a "local" thing removes an extra window loop, probably very small benefit but still
20:48:32 <TrueBrain> frosch123: let me see if I can make a mock-up here, as I am not fully sure how trams etc work :)
20:49:41 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i think the "disable/enable build tools when no vehicle is available" originated from before there were rail/road/tram types. imo that settings makes no sense for road/tram/rail/airports. only infrastructure it somewhat works is canals
20:49:43 <TrueBrain> okay, what I wanted to solve is already solved, so nevermind :)
20:50:09 <TrueBrain> frosch123: what I am aiming at, is that there is missing some visual elements to make the player aware why buttons are disabled
20:50:13 <TrueBrain> it really frustrated me
20:51:02 <frosch123> i once worked on a software, where disabled buttons were clickable, and then they displayed an error message
20:51:19 <TrueBrain> if only the tooltip would indicate why they were disabled, would already help
20:51:20 <frosch123> non-standard guis :)
20:51:30 <TrueBrain> but I was now aiming for something slightly more subtle
20:53:19 <andythenorth> hide the tram icon in main toolbar if no trams :P
20:53:28 <andythenorth> disable if trams not ready yet
20:53:31 <TrueBrain> that is not really a way I would consider useful :P
20:54:45 <TrueBrain> I am very sure b30c3f6 did not cause that :P
20:55:19 <andythenorth> just include trams, problem vanishes?
20:55:23 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I think I now a solution for the order GUI, will try in a bit :)
20:55:26 <andythenorth> trams in openttd.grf!
20:55:41 <andythenorth> no trams, because we didn't want community drama, is how I remember it
20:55:58 <andythenorth> OMG YOU ADDED TRAMS, I SWITCH TO SIMUTRANS
20:56:43 <LordAro> but that's definitely not b30c3f6
20:57:07 <Samu> ok, my bad, that's the parent one
20:57:19 <LordAro> `-static_cast<int>(ROAD_STOP_TRACKBIT)` should do it
20:57:25 <LordAro> Samu: i'll allow you to PR that :p
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20:58:23 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i think maybe, yes
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20:58:31 <TrueBrain> or just black for the remainder of the text?
20:58:41 <TrueBrain> or maybe only the error red
20:58:50 <LordAro> nah, that looks too much like an implicit order
20:59:21 <Samu> im afraid TrueBrain will not like it
20:59:33 <TrueBrain> the world isn't black and white
20:59:51 <LordAro> Samu: i'm giving you permission for this one :p
21:00:00 <glx> you can for this one, it's small and requested :)
21:00:24 <LordAro> could be missed if the whole line isn't red, perhaps?
21:00:40 <glx> all red is better I think
21:00:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8508: Fix #7656: destroying a tunnel/bridge now first removes the tracks for cost calculation https://git.io/JLxoE
21:00:55 <frosch123> TrueBrain: if it helps, we have commands to push/pop colours
21:01:12 <frosch123> so you can push colour, switch it, print some text, pop old colour
21:01:22 <glx> oh yes we always forget them
21:01:32 <TrueBrain> frosch123: oeh, that is nice
21:01:41 <TrueBrain> easier to miss why it is red, tbh
21:01:47 <milek7> could it be yellow or something?
21:02:40 <TrueBrain> so that comes back to why I prefixed it, a bit more in-the-eye
21:03:06 <TrueBrain> too many of this text is already between () and []
21:03:17 <andythenorth> Can't read orders (too many things) (please improve) [too big to fix]
21:03:24 <andythenorth> whoever added far end etc
21:03:30 <andythenorth> needs to explain themselves :)
21:03:31 <TrueBrain> so all red with prefix?
21:03:39 <frosch123> just don't make everything read, otherwise you cannot see line selection
21:03:49 <andythenorth> red is barely readable, contrast wise
21:03:59 <andythenorth> so yeah just red on the angry part pls
21:04:04 <andythenorth> angry / scary /s
21:04:08 <TrueBrain> red is a terrible color, but I am not going to break consistency there :)
21:04:37 <TrueBrain> frosch123: how do you do the color push? :D
21:04:51 <glx> red "(can't use)" as prefix then back to normal
21:05:59 <frosch123> STR_XYZ :Default color {PUSH_COLOUR}{RED}red text{POP_COLOUR} default color again
21:06:09 <TrueBrain> I search for {PU, grr :D Tnx
21:06:14 <andythenorth> ^^ wfm TrueBrain
21:06:58 <TrueBrain> works a lot better with selection too
21:07:34 <TrueBrain> frosch123: funny, that is not currently used in english.txt, push/pop :D
21:07:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8516: Fix #7972: show invalid orders to stations that don't accept your vehicle https://git.io/JLxcf
21:08:10 <glx> yeah it's mainly used by newgrf I think
21:08:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8516: Fix #7972: show invalid orders to stations that don't accept your vehicle https://git.io/JLxoH
21:08:36 <TrueBrain> works perfectly here :)
21:09:12 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it was added for newgrf or gs, can't remember
21:09:13 <Samu> UpdateCompanyRoadInfrastructure(rt, GetRoadOwner(tile, rtt), -static_cast<int>(ROAD_STOP_TRACKBIT_FACTOR));
21:09:28 <frosch123> but mostly to highlight stuff in lines, that change colours, when selected
21:09:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8502: Codechange: Remove min/max functions in favour of STL variants https://git.io/JLNcq
21:10:31 <Samu> UpdateCompanyRoadInfrastructure(rt, GetRoadOwner(tile, rtt), -(int)ROAD_STOP_TRACKBIT_FACTOR); won't this work? seems less ugly and visual studio doesn't complain
21:10:57 <LordAro> Samu: less ugly, but (very technically) less correct
21:11:18 <TrueBrain> lol, you can build an airport in year 0
21:11:50 <TrueBrain> expected all airports to have a minimum year of .. what .. 1918? :D
21:13:11 <TrueBrain> that link also picks up rebases, sadly
21:13:29 <frosch123> that explains it :)
21:13:30 <TrueBrain> which is really annoying
21:13:46 <TrueBrain> I know they have on their roadmap for Q1 to make this reviewing a bit easier
21:13:55 <TrueBrain> but from what I read, they overcomplicated it a bit, but we will see :P
21:14:09 <TrueBrain> (as author of a PR you can inform reviewers a new version is ready, even if it takes you 5 pushes, etc)
21:14:16 <frosch123> does gh have developers in nl?
21:14:57 <TrueBrain> I have been suggested to apply at AWS several times now; not sure :)
21:15:04 <glx> imagine reviewing on phone, following the comments is a pain on phone
21:15:16 <frosch123> pretty sure everyone things ottd gets stuff for free then
21:15:41 <glx> and reading the diff is worse
21:16:08 <glx> indentation is almost broken
21:16:50 <TrueBrain> glx: GH has a feedback forum, which they seem to read
21:17:21 <andythenorth> "working for the dread pirate Bezos"
21:17:36 <andythenorth> "AWS: where smart people go to feel bad about themselves"
21:18:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: poor guy is now only the second richest
21:18:15 <TrueBrain> from what I understand, working for AWS is pretty fine
21:18:22 <TrueBrain> it is Amazon that is mostly the issue
21:18:33 <TrueBrain> (which might sound strange, but that is what people tell me :P)
21:18:49 <andythenorth> Yeah I extrapolated from Amazon
21:19:20 <andythenorth> Google SRE in europe is supposed to be horrible, is that where Y*xo was?
21:19:20 <frosch123> i doubt tb wants to deliver parcels
21:19:38 <TrueBrain> I am sure they don't want me to pay what I ask for delivering parcels, no :)
21:20:03 <andythenorth> wow AWS Glassdoor is pretty positive
21:20:48 <michi_cc> Look what I wasted my time on today :p
21:20:54 <TrueBrain> yeah, I am not kidding andythenorth :)
21:20:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8518: [OSX] Replace FreeType by native glyph rasterization https://git.io/JLxK8
21:21:00 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #8519: [OSX] Render screen in full native resolution on HiDPI displays. https://git.io/JLxK4
21:21:05 <frosch123> google is funny. every second day youtube switches between two layouts for me. i think they have different versions on different servers, and sometimes i get one or the other
21:21:14 <glx> must be a lot of work michi_cc
21:21:30 <supermop_Home> TrueBrain i am sure if you get to work in the domes instead of a warehouse it's nice
21:21:31 <TrueBrain> this is why michi_cc has been so quiet :D
21:21:38 <andythenorth> michi_cc works, some of us talk
21:22:03 <glx> andythenorth: you have something to test now ;)
21:22:06 <michi_cc> glx: Not that much actually, OSX is very similar to Win32 in this regard. Most time was spent getting the details right (e.g. floor/round/ceil ...)
21:22:22 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: If might also be because I'm not on vacation anymore :p
21:22:38 <TrueBrain> wait, you guys have jobs?! :P
21:25:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8502: Codechange: Remove min/max functions in favour of STL variants https://git.io/JLxKw
21:25:37 <TrueBrain> CI passed?! Nice LordAro :D
21:25:52 <TrueBrain> I will let you merge before I do mine, in case there is any conflict :P
21:26:05 <LordAro> i got an email saying it failed
21:26:16 <frosch123> aw, why do i bother approving things, when the ci fails
21:26:18 <TrueBrain> I just assumed because he approved :(
21:26:32 <TrueBrain> wel, MacOS works at least \o/
21:27:04 <TrueBrain> guess you found the one file that doesn't include stdafx.h or something? :D
21:27:18 <andythenorth> wasm preview of 8518!
21:27:37 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that would be .. pointless :P
21:27:51 <glx> #8508 will need to be reapproved after conflict is fixed ;)
21:29:44 <michi_cc> With all these late changes coming in, we could do a 1.11-beta-announce livestream.
21:29:58 <TrueBrain> and show off all the cool new features? :D
21:30:03 <andythenorth> I miss livestreaming
21:30:05 <andythenorth> it's been so long
21:30:25 <andythenorth> if I learn the twitch timing, I can avoid talking over the feature :P
21:31:55 <Samu> this is a terrible exercise for my brain
21:31:56 <andythenorth> michi_cc quad size interface setting now in use :)
21:32:05 <Samu> do i really got to fill in the PR form
21:32:35 <glx> Samu: it's easy, you just tell you fix the MSVC warning
21:32:49 <glx> no need to write a book in this case :)
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21:33:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8520: Fix 0125892: Warning about unsigned unary minus https://git.io/JLxKx
21:34:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8519: [OSX] Render screen in full native resolution on HiDPI displays. https://git.io/JLxKj
21:35:05 <supermop_Home> andythenorth hotel sprite need anything else?
21:35:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8520: Fix 0125892: Warning about unsigned unary minus https://git.io/JLx6v
21:35:49 <andythenorth> supermop_Home I need to PR it, and wait for consensus
21:36:05 <andythenorth> someone will either just approve it, or we'll debate it for days and you'll be sad :P
21:37:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8521: Change: always allow to click on the toolbar icons for road/rail/dock/airport https://git.io/JLx6I
21:37:31 <TrueBrain> this is not done yet ^^ (hence, draft), but I wanted to build a preview to see what you guys think of a solution like this :)
21:41:15 <andythenorth> so has the macOS build had twice the zoom level of other clients?
21:41:25 * andythenorth unclear what other OS builds do
21:42:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8520: Fix 0125892: Warning about unsigned unary minus https://git.io/JLxKx
21:43:58 <glx> andythenorth: because retina
21:44:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JLx6u
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21:45:50 <andythenorth> I lack any useful unit to compare zoom levels across different OS / devices
21:46:40 <glx> it's not about zoom level I think, everything is basically double resolution on retina
21:46:58 <andythenorth> it's 4 pixels to 1 yes
21:48:52 <TrueBrain> frosch123: https://preview.openttd.org/pr8521/ <- this is somewhat what I had in mind. Start the game in year 0 of so for best result. I still want to add something to indicate why the build-station etc are disabled
21:49:06 <TrueBrain> well, and others ofc .. would love some feedback
21:50:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8517: Codechange: Make void tiles flood edge tiles, instead of edge tiles flooding themselves https://git.io/JLxCt
21:50:57 <andythenorth> michi_cc 8519 so far :)
21:50:59 <andythenorth> ....the default 1x UI zoom is unworkable, and would be better disabled if we want to go this route.
21:51:15 <andythenorth> ...the zoomed out map is remarkably more beautiful
21:51:36 <andythenorth> ...the FPS on a release build of 8519 is about 25% of the 1.10.2
21:51:56 <michi_cc> Well, you have 4x the pixels to render.
21:52:04 <andythenorth> ...the loss of one zoom in level is annoying to me as a newgrf author, but I doubt most players would care
21:52:13 <glx> yeah it's expected to be slower
21:52:19 <andythenorth> yeah retina usually is
21:52:29 <michi_cc> glx: HiDPI in master renders like the old, old, old Win32 pixel doubler setting.
21:52:31 <andythenorth> the handful of other games I play don't run in retina, but they're 3D
21:53:33 <frosch123> TrueBrain: no idea what's different
21:53:35 <michi_cc> Well, I added an openttd.cfg-only setting for "unplayable". It's not really discoverable though :(
21:53:50 <TrueBrain> frosch123: haha, sorry: toolbar icons are never disabled
21:53:51 <frosch123> i need to read the diff to find out :p
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21:53:56 <TrueBrain> so even in year 0, you can build road
21:54:00 <TrueBrain> but you cannot build stations
21:54:03 <TrueBrain> you can build canels
21:54:43 <andythenorth> I guess to test the font PR I need to learn how to change the font?
21:54:52 <andythenorth> pixel font is pixel font
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21:59:07 <supermop_Home> i never change the font myself
21:59:41 <supermop_Home> tried to use Transport once, but its not a real complete font so the game didn't like it
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22:01:17 <supermop_Home> don't really have any other font that i think would look better in the context of the game
22:01:21 <frosch123> TrueBrain: looks good
22:01:34 <TrueBrain> because I want to fix a bit more :)
22:02:08 <andythenorth> michi_cc I will test more tomorrow :)
22:02:14 <TrueBrain> that is what I really wanted to do :)
22:02:52 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Just select Greek or Chinese or something as game language.
22:04:03 <andythenorth> ok fonts are very....sharp
22:04:31 <andythenorth> I haven't tried the freetype replacement yet
22:07:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8521: Change: always allow to click on the toolbar icons for road/rail/dock/airport https://git.io/JLx6I
22:07:21 <TrueBrain> now it is ready for review ^^ :D
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22:09:22 <TrueBrain> wait, I might as well also remove the setting about this, I guess .. as that is totally pointless now I guess?
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22:11:45 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8521: Change: always allow to click on the toolbar icons for road/rail/dock/airport https://git.io/JLx6I
22:19:22 <TrueBrain> I really do not see the point of ^^; am I missing something?
22:19:51 <TrueBrain> what do rivers have that sea doesn't?
22:20:17 <frosch123> they are not on height level 0?
22:20:27 <frosch123> you can only rebuild them with canals
22:20:31 <frosch123> which people consider ugly
22:20:54 <TrueBrain> it feels like this is the wrong solution to a different problem :P
22:20:55 <LordAro> i'd be happy woth making rivers permanent without the setting, tbh
22:21:20 <frosch123> TrueBrain: well, the "motivation" in that PR is not the usual motivation for that request
22:21:29 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, I suspected as much :)
22:21:41 <frosch123> usually the point is: rivers are the only thing in game, which you can destroy, but not restore
22:22:02 <frosch123> everything else either grows back (houses), or you can build it
22:22:32 <TrueBrain> making rivers indestructible makes them one of the only items that are (industries being the other exception, I think)
22:22:48 <TrueBrain> which feels like it jumps to the other side of the spectrum :)
22:22:53 <frosch123> don't forget transmitters and lighthouses :)
22:23:11 <TrueBrain> but rivers are much more disruptive
22:23:20 <TrueBrain> isn't the issue just that the cost of destroying them is too low?
22:23:34 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i am unsure about the current behavior of locks. they may or may not restore previous rivers, when removed
22:24:12 <frosch123> TrueBrain: no, people complain about *accidentially* removing them (read: selective demolish :p)
22:24:13 <TrueBrain> rivier is maintained
22:24:29 <TrueBrain> haha, okay, so we are back to that being the more proper solution for this :D
22:24:43 <frosch123> cost only works for small companies
22:24:45 <TrueBrain> LordAro: how do you feel about it? As you mention you would want to add this without setting?
22:25:17 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, okay, cost is irrelevant if you are bigger, true
22:25:48 <TrueBrain> can't we add in the landscape toolbar: build river?
22:26:02 <TrueBrain> game-play wise a bit weird, I guess
22:26:21 <frosch123> i think there was a patch for that
22:26:28 <frosch123> noone liked it, can't remember why
22:26:42 <TrueBrain> it supersedes canals, I guess :D
22:26:54 <andythenorth> since when removing locks preserves rivers?
22:26:59 <andythenorth> since always? :o
22:27:14 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: all I did was start the game, place a lock, remove it
22:27:15 * andythenorth every day is a school day
22:27:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: i said, i don't know the state :p
22:27:19 <TrueBrain> river was still there :)
22:27:45 <milek7> dbg: [net] [server] could not start network: could not create listening socket
22:27:46 <andythenorth> probably I misremember how I think it was
22:28:00 <TrueBrain> removing canals is not possible :)
22:28:09 <frosch123> TrueBrain: anyway, i also prefer "indestrucible rivers" over "player-built rivers"
22:28:29 <TrueBrain> I just see inconsistent behaviour, that is all :)
22:28:38 <TrueBrain> would mean you cannot terraform next to a river etc
22:28:52 <TrueBrain> I expect a lot of people will not like that
22:28:55 <frosch123> yes, they become long transmitters :p
22:29:08 <frosch123> they can play without rivers
22:29:24 <TrueBrain> it is one of those things I expect will become a setting you set off by default
22:29:32 <TrueBrain> as it is just too disruptive for most people's way of playing
22:29:34 <TrueBrain> but that is just a hunch
22:29:57 <milek7> indestructible rivers logically also leads to indestructible sea?
22:30:54 <TrueBrain> it is one of those: we should never have added them in the first place :P :P
22:30:58 * andythenorth proposes modest proposal, modestly
22:31:12 <andythenorth> river building tool in normal game, move on?
22:31:34 <andythenorth> I have just been replacing missing rivers with GarryG's massive selection of river objects
22:32:08 <andythenorth> it's like 3 times in a game where I have removed a river and want to restore it
22:32:14 <TrueBrain> I would almost suggest a "challenging" mode, where some rules of the game change: 1) you can only terraform N times per year, 2) removing rivers and sea is part of that terraform quota
22:32:25 <andythenorth> oh no, no callbacks
22:32:35 <andythenorth> GS could manage the quota though
22:32:58 <andythenorth> if I play a game for 100 years, I want to replace broken rivers like...what...3 times?
22:33:04 <andythenorth> and it's a few tiles
22:33:08 <andythenorth> so just river builder
22:33:34 <andythenorth> only reason canals don't work are (1) ugly (2) can't build on slopes
22:33:55 <TrueBrain> can ships go upstream on rivers?
22:34:03 <andythenorth> in current game? yes
22:34:20 <TrueBrain> another solution might be, to make "river source blocks", which are indestructable
22:34:23 <glx> TrueBrain: or a dirt pile system, to raise land you need to dig somewhere else, and vice versa
22:34:30 <TrueBrain> and that you can build "new rivers" from the source block, flow where-ever you like
22:34:34 <andythenorth> TrueBrain like a minecraft water block?
22:34:36 <TrueBrain> glx: I like that idea too :)
22:34:40 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yeah, kinda
22:34:50 <TrueBrain> so if you destroy a river, you can build a new .. trench, I guess
22:34:56 <TrueBrain> and it flows through it again, making it a river again
22:35:00 <TrueBrain> but if you do it in a random spot
22:35:19 <andythenorth> practically, having a newgrf option for 'choose your canal appearance' would solve 90% of it
22:35:22 <TrueBrain> also means if you cut in the right place, a whole river can dry up, btw :P
22:35:29 <andythenorth> and option to build rapids
22:36:37 <TrueBrain> so I guess there are alternative solutions besides just making it indestructible; that seems to me to be the most gameplay invasive solution :P
22:38:50 <andythenorth> but it can have a setting!
22:38:59 <andythenorth> and we can add a regression test for the setting!
22:39:04 <andythenorth> and let AIs test for it!
22:39:11 <andythenorth> and write a wiki page!
22:39:33 <andythenorth> bad andythenorth
22:40:07 <frosch123> oh wait... there is already an icon in scenario editor
22:40:16 * andythenorth wants a setting that turns Excel into Word, and another that makes it into Outlook
22:40:23 <frosch123> i was looking for the old patch, just for the icon :p
22:41:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: since when can ships cross river slopes?
22:41:17 <frosch123> you have to build locks
22:42:00 <andythenorth> do we differ on meaning of 'upstream' or something else I wrote? :)
22:42:49 <glx> I think "upstream" was implicitely without building anything
22:43:55 <TrueBrain> I meant upstream on a slope
22:43:59 <TrueBrain> I was not clear enough :D
22:44:15 <andythenorth> yeah ships can't traverse rapids
22:44:51 <TrueBrain> ah .. okay, that at least makes the canal + lock consistent
22:45:35 <FLHerne> frosch123: re. examples -- I think they're useful for people learning NML, although the current ones aren't great
22:45:55 <andythenorth> current examples, all I get from them is guilt that I haven't made them better
22:46:03 * andythenorth should get a therapist :P
22:46:11 <FLHerne> They're better than nothing
22:46:42 <FLHerne> And since no-one else has improved them either, that means they're a positive contribution :p
22:46:56 <andythenorth> I think it's hard to have an nml feature PR without an example
22:47:06 <frosch123> hmm, industries are the only thing in game you can build but not destroy... do rich companies block other companies by encircling them with industries? :p
22:47:07 <andythenorth> but maybe the regression tests work better for that
22:47:19 <andythenorth> frosch123 interesting griefing idea
22:47:31 <TrueBrain> frosch123: pretty sure that "buy land" is cheaper :P
22:47:44 <andythenorth> next livestream, circular industry layouts
22:47:48 <TrueBrain> but yes, I might have put industries down in places people want to build :D
22:48:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: haha, you should definitely have a firs industry with an enclosed but empty center
22:48:33 <andythenorth> circular industry round a town, it can accept and produce various cargos, but taxes them
22:49:19 <andythenorth> frosch123 only if I can put a river in it
22:50:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8517: Codechange: Make void tiles flood edge tiles, instead of edge tiles flooding themselves https://git.io/JLxXd
22:51:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8063: Fix #8055: Always allow building any available roadtypes, even if there are no road vehicles available https://git.io/JLxXx
22:52:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8521: Change: always allow to click on the toolbar icons for road/rail/dock/airport https://git.io/JLxXh
22:52:34 <frosch123> that airport sprite is so unclear, i thought it was some graphics bug :)
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22:53:49 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8521: Change: always allow to click on the toolbar icons for road/rail/dock/airport https://git.io/JLx6I
22:53:54 <TrueBrain> LOL! Okay, that was a nice find :D
22:54:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8521: Change: always allow to click on the toolbar icons for road/rail/dock/airport https://git.io/JLx1t
22:54:52 <TrueBrain> LordAro: is it okay if I merge, or will you update your STL min/max soon? :) (I can wait, really)
22:55:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8517: Codechange: Make void tiles flood edge tiles, instead of edge tiles flooding themselves https://git.io/JLx1Y
22:56:28 <TrueBrain> owh, that just cracked me up andythenorth :)
22:58:02 <LordAro> TrueBrain: not sure i'll get to it tonight
22:58:04 <glx> I agree for the shores, it's the other stuff I don't understand
22:58:29 <TrueBrain> glx: I really don't know why that last chunk :P
22:58:48 <TrueBrain> LordAro: no worries; I will just wait, I came to realise .. there is no rush :)
22:59:01 <TrueBrain> and the less conflicts you have, the less chance something is forgotten :D
22:59:23 <TrueBrain> glx: but yeah, abusing MP_VOID to silently be MP_WATER is a hack; not sure it is a bad hack btw .. but it is a hack for sure :)
22:59:53 <TrueBrain> also, MP_VOID is only there in 2 of the 4 borders, if I am not mistaken
22:59:58 <TrueBrain> the two south directions
23:00:59 <glx> depends on freeform edges I think
23:01:02 <andythenorth> or things will get...rong
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23:01:27 <TrueBrain> there is another setting influencing it, I believe
23:01:41 <TrueBrain> wait, no freeform edges indeed
23:01:48 <TrueBrain> that influence if there is an MP_VOID at all :P
23:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there's always an MP_VOID, just freeform edges makes more of them
23:05:04 <TrueBrain> with freeform edges, yes, but without it, I believe it was symmetrical or something weird
23:07:07 <TrueBrain> euh, or the other way around .. ugh, it is a mess, that I remember :P
23:07:20 <TrueBrain> if freeform-edges is on, x,0 and 0,y are made into a void
23:07:40 <TrueBrain> opening up the code works better :D
23:07:59 <TrueBrain> so the north border is fully MP_VOID with freeform
23:08:11 <TrueBrain> this was to give the overhanging effect, I believe?
23:08:25 <TrueBrain> as that border prevents you from seeing slopes, not?
23:08:56 <glx> it's for height calculation too IIRC
23:09:06 <glx> as it needs an adjacent tile
23:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> without freeform borders, you have MP_VOID only at the southern end, with freeform map you have also at northern border
23:09:39 <TrueBrain> one of those weird quirks in OpenTTD :P
23:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but the issue can only exist with freeform borders
23:10:55 <TrueBrain> haha, funny, the places that make it MP_VOID are miles apart in the code
23:10:56 <glx> yes because non freeform is always an island
23:11:28 <TrueBrain> north-border is done in map generators, south-border in InitializeLandscape
23:11:31 <TrueBrain> that is not confusing at all :D
23:11:44 <glx> welcome to openttd source :)
23:12:14 <TrueBrain> we should just remove the freeform as a setting honestly :P
23:14:04 <TrueBrain> anyway, that brings us back to the PR, it is a hack to use MP_VOID for that, but I guess it kinda works
23:16:11 <TrueBrain> just that last chunk, I cannot place .. meh .. I spend too much time deciphering his PRs :P
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23:34:08 <glx> after better reading the diff, I now understand the issue (but that really should be explained in the description)
23:34:32 <TrueBrain> owh yes, he is terrible in explaining what is going on etc, which makes us spend waaaaayyyyyy too much time on reviews
23:34:41 <TrueBrain> and you have to second guess EVERYTHING
23:35:14 <glx> basically edge tiles are supposed to self flood, but the check is too strict and most of them don't flood
23:35:35 <TrueBrain> haha, well, that is a completely different story indeed :)
23:36:21 <glx> and giving flood power to MP_VOID solves it nicely indeed
23:36:43 <TrueBrain> - if (!IsValidTile(dest)) continue;
23:36:43 <TrueBrain> + if (dest >= MapSize()) continue;
23:36:46 <TrueBrain> this .. this is just weird
23:36:54 <glx> yeah that's part I don't get
23:37:09 <TrueBrain> well, IsValidTile returns false on MP_VOID
23:37:15 <TrueBrain> but I don't see why that is a problem
23:37:21 <TrueBrain> at the very least, it should have been a comment
23:40:21 <TrueBrain> feels like he fiddled till it worked
23:40:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 updated pull request #8391: RFC: Feature: Public key company authorization https://git.io/JLnig
23:42:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 commented on pull request #8391: RFC: Feature: Public key company authorization https://git.io/JLxD1
23:45:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8517: Codechange: Make void tiles flood edge tiles, instead of edge tiles flooding themselves https://git.io/JLxDb
23:45:37 <TrueBrain> milek7: how we say in Dutch: "lekker bezig!", which is a nice compliment :)
23:45:45 <glx> may help others to understand too :)
23:48:05 <glx> but really we should not have to read the diff to get the problem
23:54:56 <TrueBrain> someone is repackaging other's people NewGRF work and uploading it to BaNaNaS .. most of it valid by license, and by-passes our "are you the author?" question, as it is a repack.. it might not be invalid, but sure it isn't by the spirit
23:55:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #8502: Codechange: Remove min/max functions in favour of STL variants https://git.io/JLxKw
23:55:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8502: Codechange: Remove min/max functions in favour of STL variants https://git.io/JLNcq
23:56:15 <TrueBrain> YOU FORGOT ONE LordAro ?! :o :o
23:56:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8502: Codechange: Remove min/max functions in favour of STL variants https://git.io/JLxyr
23:57:13 <TrueBrain> what is the worst that can happen
23:58:11 <TrueBrain> if you want to install a coinminer in OpenTTD, these are the PRs to do that with :)
23:59:22 <LordAro> what did i miss this time?
23:59:28 <TrueBrain> win32_s and xaudio2_s
23:59:38 <TrueBrain> can't blame you for those :)
23:59:43 <TrueBrain> shall we just remove them instead?
continue to next day ⏵
