IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-12-24
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00:00:21 <andythenorth> needs a designer...
00:00:26 <Timberwolf> supermop_Home_: A lot of them are expanding, I think Wildcard just went from having a brewery and taproom on the Ravenswood estate to having a big brewery in Blackhorse Road and using their old site just as a bar.
00:00:34 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ you always wanted to do some fashion design right? :P
00:00:39 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth in 2017 one of those aforementioned vanity project firms did lead me to do a site visit for potential renovation of an apartment at 725 5th avenue...
00:00:46 <Timberwolf> They've done quite well out of the early lockdown, Wildcard were selling more than they could brew.
00:00:54 <supermop_Home_> I was able to convince my boss to refuse the project
00:01:11 <andythenorth> don't you like working with gold everywhere?
00:01:59 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth i have some fashion things slow cooking for 2022. buddy of mine is trying to launch a natural fibers and dyes Techwear line atm
00:02:02 <Timberwolf> Beavertown have a big unit the other side of the River Lea, they have supermarket deals and all sorts now.
00:02:10 <andythenorth> OpenTTD hats or go home
00:02:27 <supermop_Home_> beavertown figures too large in my life these days... but Oregon
00:02:31 <andythenorth> also now Timberwolf has voxels, we can do custom 3D prints of trains
00:02:36 <andythenorth> fund the AWS bills
00:02:56 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth i thought about selling prints of the base set vehicles a few years ago
00:02:57 <andythenorth> then we can laser scan them
00:03:07 <andythenorth> then we can turn them into models for the game
00:03:19 <supermop_Home_> nah scan the images Mortal Kombat style
00:03:19 <Timberwolf> I don't know much of Oregon outside of American Truck Simulator and the Decemberists :)
00:04:01 <andythenorth> I was thinking voxel model -> 3D print -> scan -> CGI model -> blue screen render of each angle -> 8bpp pixels
00:04:09 <supermop_Home_> Timberwolf Beavertown OR is where a certain footwear brand can make more from dropping one shoe than a decent action movie box office take
00:04:20 <_dp_> I wanted to 3d print some vehicles but I quickly realized the problem with them being 2d xD
00:04:37 <andythenorth> its a limiting factor
00:04:51 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth doing something for capsule tower's 50th is my plan
00:05:32 <supermop_Home_> Timberwolf last i was there i thing Camden was about all i was drinking there
00:06:27 <Timberwolf> Camden are still about, they're all over the place now. You can buy Hells in most supermarkets.
00:06:42 <supermop_Home_> you can get it here sometimes
00:06:43 <Timberwolf> And it's the standard lager in a lot of pubs.
00:06:50 <supermop_Home_> and in melb when i was living there
00:07:43 <supermop_Home_> NYC beers have been on a good tear lately, after 5 long years of IPA dick-measuring contests
00:08:06 <supermop_Home_> back to making interesting and tasty things, offering delivery
00:10:47 <Timberwolf> One of our dogs has already done the very obvious and loud Climbing Of The Stairs.
00:11:36 <supermop_Home_> i'd better get dinner then
00:12:12 <andythenorth> it's like literally every day,
00:12:30 <andythenorth> I've tried avoiding it, but it always seems to find me
00:21:10 <andythenorth> oh FML this is sleeping time
00:21:17 <andythenorth> marriage = waking up by 6am
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07:57:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy opened pull request #8425: Feature: Contextual actions for vehicles grouped by shared orders https://git.io/JLXyG
07:57:43 <andythenorth> hmm 31s compile, 7s is spent on drawing images
07:57:52 * andythenorth in optimisation hole again
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08:31:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's like weightloss obsession. any nonzero number can trigger it, and it can get very unhealthy
08:34:41 <andythenorth> ok let's talk about horse names instead
08:39:05 <andythenorth> I need a name for euro Horse
08:39:13 <andythenorth> probably a type of horse
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08:54:59 <planetmaker> Merry Christmas everyone :)
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09:09:27 <Eddi|zuHause> happy holidays to you, too, planetmaker
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10:12:51 <LordAro> that depot bug is a good'un
10:30:52 <andythenorth> it's quite retro no?
10:31:18 <Timberwolf> Yes, very original!
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10:46:45 <andythenorth> lol I just got smacked by the most subtle and silly templating bug
10:47:00 <andythenorth> the templater strips newlines in certain conditions
10:47:11 <andythenorth> and the last line of one template was a comment
10:47:40 <andythenorth> the first line of the next template was a switch (it used to be an outdated comment, which I removed)
10:47:47 <andythenorth> took ages to see why
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12:20:39 * LordAro going through the gitlog for 1.11.0-beta1 purposes
12:23:19 <LordAro> it's surprisingly long
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12:26:02 <LordAro> (that's what she said, etc)
12:26:09 <andythenorth> game is innovating etc
12:28:39 <frosch123> i wondered. should ottd keep the "one stable branch per year, and maintainance relase"?
12:28:51 <frosch123> i got the impression noone likes the backports
12:29:39 <LordAro> there was a point where we were going to speed up the release cycle
12:29:40 <frosch123> an alternative would be a monthly, which is just the nightly of the first wednesday of each month or so
12:29:42 <LordAro> then it didn't happen
12:29:46 <andythenorth> I forgot we had the backports :P
12:30:05 <frosch123> LordAro: my point is more like: what is a release
12:30:18 <frosch123> do we maintain them manually, or would we rather do automated snapshots
12:31:18 <frosch123> dp complains all day long that a year is too long. but apparently nightly is too fast
12:31:45 <frosch123> doing a real release with minor versions is impossible to do more than once per year
12:32:08 <LordAro> would probably mean the thing is (slightly) less stable
12:32:12 <frosch123> so the alternative would be a monthly or quaterly, which would just be an entitled nightly
12:33:09 <_dp_> imo quarterly would be perfect
12:33:53 <_dp_> too short to be annoying, not to long to feel like eternity
12:35:23 <_dp_> don't have to be on a strict schedule, but at least release smth every 3-4 month when it's logically most appropriate
12:35:34 <_dp_> with like 1 month feature freeze prior
12:35:47 <frosch123> _dp_: that won't work
12:36:01 <frosch123> you can have one manual release per year, or an automated more often
12:36:07 <frosch123> you cannot pick "just work more"
12:36:57 <andythenorth> what new things go wrong if we release from master?
12:37:20 * andythenorth has pre-loaded this question [spoiler: feature flags]
12:37:32 <LordAro> not sure i like the idea of (fully) automated releases
12:37:51 <Wolf01> Especially "release what?"
12:37:53 <andythenorth> oof why do I use PARENT for var[0x8A, 0, 0xF]
12:38:02 <andythenorth> not now andythenorth we're talking
12:38:03 <frosch123> LordAro: yeah, you can't call it "releases" anymore :)
12:38:15 <_dp_> just how much more work is release anyway? if you can automate it you sure can add a button ;)
12:38:24 <frosch123> it's just a fake release, a nightly that is called "release", so people think it is good
12:38:48 <andythenorth> I feature flag unused grf stuff FWIW
12:38:59 <andythenorth> and turn the flags off before a release
12:39:02 <andythenorth> except when I forget
12:39:11 <frosch123> _dp_: the work comes from the branching
12:39:28 <frosch123> you have to change N files so ottd nows whether it is a reelase branch, or a real one
12:39:30 <Wolf01> Make fast branch, slow branch, lts branch? Too much microsoft?
12:39:40 <_dp_> frosch123, you do branching anyway
12:39:53 <frosch123> a quartely would not branch, just a tag from master
12:40:20 <frosch123> hmm, though, maybe i am lieing to myself there
12:40:29 <frosch123> maybe there is also savegame bumping and more
12:41:22 <frosch123> so, maybe automated release is more like: no manual changelog, no manual newspost, no dicussion when to branch, just a fixed date
12:41:35 <frosch123> every second is broken, but then people can play the previous :p
12:41:42 <LordAro> in which case why have nightlies? might as well just have weekly releases
12:42:03 <andythenorth> IMHO we need infrequent 'stable' releases, maybe once a year
12:42:05 <frosch123> nightlies is an extensive ci at this point, noone plays them
12:42:36 <frosch123> and the point was that multiplayer people want releases not too often, so it's more likely they all have the same version
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12:42:55 <andythenorth> unless we push to forced auto-updating
12:43:00 <andythenorth> which is..unwanted for us I think
12:43:28 <andythenorth> Blitz forces updates, outdated = no login
12:43:37 <andythenorth> also means if the mac client broke in say 5.2
12:43:50 <andythenorth> you ain't playing until they fix it, no matter how much you pay for subscription
12:43:54 <Wolf01> Master server accepts any version anyway
12:44:36 <Wolf01> It's up to clients to use the same version of the server they want to join
12:44:58 <Wolf01> It's not a mmo-openttd :P
12:45:14 <andythenorth> it's just so faffy
12:45:25 <andythenorth> open binary, browse servers, get a different binary
12:46:17 <andythenorth> anyway tag master with a numbered version annually, profit
12:46:51 <LordAro> tagging master every quarter wouldn't be the worst thing, imo
12:47:23 <LordAro> we do a release every quarter at work
12:47:59 <LordAro> though we still have release branches there (releases/X.Y irritatingly), because actual number of people working on things :)
12:48:57 <andythenorth> we have candidate branch for a build
12:49:06 <andythenorth> if it passes QA -> merge master, tag
12:49:16 <andythenorth> nothing else goes to master except README fixes
12:49:35 <andythenorth> but eh, that's not here
12:52:04 <frosch123> random interjection: last night i noticed i should have renamed "mail" to "eels", so i could refit the hovercraft on stream
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13:17:42 <andythenorth> oof today is the day for esoteric bugs
13:18:03 <andythenorth> I have an articulated wagon with mail + pax capacity
13:18:18 <andythenorth> I couldn't figure out why mail section wasn't showing opening doors
13:18:34 <andythenorth> test station doesn't accept mail :P
13:21:42 <andythenorth> took 20 minutes to find it :P
13:23:04 <Wolf01> Exactly like the bug I was asked to address today... not a bug :P Changed the description of one selector to better understand what the automations based on its activation do
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13:37:29 <frosch123> there are 171 zombies here
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14:06:10 <FLHerne> But some of use are only part-time zombies
14:06:26 <Wolf01> Others fake it... shit
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14:24:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8422: Change: Add some style to GameScript question windows depending on the type https://git.io/JLXFj
14:24:41 <andythenorth> hmm could we implement Ticket To Ride type mechanics? w
14:24:45 <andythenorth> without getting sued?
14:24:57 * andythenorth thinking of route tickets drawn at game start
14:26:41 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8416 <- was there any reason you did not approve it besides your initial comment? It looks good to me, but .. thought I better check with you first to make sure you didn't have a reason for not approving it yet :D
14:34:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7745: Feature: setting for more flexible town spacing https://git.io/JLXbc
14:35:08 <TrueBrain> frosch123 / LordAro / who-ever, if you disagree with my comment in ^^ let me know, otherwise I close that PR in a few days
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14:38:16 <andythenorth> so...Towns. Or go complete Yolo and have arbitrary overlapping Regions?
14:38:27 <andythenorth> and towns are subjugated to region
14:39:12 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> hmm could we implement Ticket To Ride type mechanics? <- which are? (I have it, never played)
14:39:28 <andythenorth> it's a board game, building train routes
14:39:31 <andythenorth> nothing like TTD
14:39:39 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: I've not tested it. But I don't have any principal objections.
14:39:43 <andythenorth> but at the beginning you're given certain routes you must achieve for points
14:39:49 <Wolf01> Oh, I thought something like mashinky
14:39:52 <andythenorth> 'connect X to Y'
14:40:27 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: cool, will test it soon if nobody beats me to it :D
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14:42:01 * andythenorth wonders if nielsm is reading the channel
14:44:00 <andythenorth> it only requires computing to offer bytes with 32 values
14:44:04 <andythenorth> that's ok, right?
14:49:30 <nielsm> andythenorth: no I'm not
14:49:45 <andythenorth> found a new game to play
14:51:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8422: Change: Add some style to GameScript question windows depending on the type https://git.io/JLXby
14:54:44 <TrueBrain> _dp_: I was not expecting you to do so, but boy, it stands out :P
14:55:28 <TrueBrain> what I would like GitHub to add, is a way where people can vote on a PR .. but not any user .. like .. "Members only" or something
14:55:34 <TrueBrain> so much easier if that was possible
15:03:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7981: Feature #7735: Implement protocol handling https://git.io/JLXNk
15:03:29 <TrueBrain> milek7: we are getting some good feedback on the Discussion, that is pretty nice :)
15:04:14 <TrueBrain> seems it is not only RCON that needs "server admin" role, but people would also enjoy it in a broader context
15:04:28 <TrueBrain> not sure if that should be done all at once btw; Phase 3 can also be 3+ PRs for all I care
15:04:32 <TrueBrain> just to be clear about that ;)
15:16:02 <glx> TrueBrain: as there is NWID *GetWidget(uint widnum) inside windows, I think it's possible to change colors, but nobody wrote code to to that easily
15:17:05 <andythenorth> anyone doing the CSS for that?
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15:35:46 <andythenorth> one day I will figure out a good industry closure mechanic
15:36:20 <andythenorth> I have half an idea about industries being 'lucky' (safe from closure, production increases) or 'unlucky' (can close)
15:42:34 <TrueBrain> glx: okay, so in that case I agree that copying is better; or do you disagree?
15:43:20 <glx> until we have an easy way to change background color it's better to copy yes
15:43:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8422: Change: Add some style to GameScript question windows depending on the type https://git.io/JLXhJ
15:45:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #8422: Change: Add some style to GameScript question windows depending on the type https://git.io/JLXhm
15:46:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8422: Change: Add some style to GameScript question windows depending on the type https://git.io/JLXhG
15:46:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7918: Fix 3c047b1: AIGroup.GetProfitLastYear could get values different than those displayed in gui https://git.io/Jvek6
15:49:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8422: Change: Add some style to GameScript question windows depending on the type https://git.io/JLXGQ
15:51:25 <TrueBrain> frosch123: fun fact, I found out that you can stalk people on Steam too if you have been in a game with them .. :P
15:51:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8422: Change: Add some style to GameScript question windows depending on the type https://git.io/JLXhh
15:52:08 <andythenorth> CSS in #8422 looked good 👍
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15:55:02 <frosch123> TrueBrain: changed your mind :p
15:55:46 <TrueBrain> only using the email is interesting .. it does need a bit more work
15:55:56 <TrueBrain> as the secret key is AES encrypted before it is send to the cloud
15:56:00 <TrueBrain> it needs something to encrypt with
15:56:52 <TrueBrain> (I was planning to use the password for that, but .. I like your idea more of only using email)
15:57:36 <TrueBrain> but if we want that people can forget their password and still be able to recover their account, we need to generate that password anyway server-side
15:57:42 <TrueBrain> so we can secure-exchange it to the client
15:59:50 <frosch123> it's funny to see the emojis vanish and reappear. they have a noticeable color, so register as "movement" in the corner of your eye :p
16:00:08 <TrueBrain> and GitHub is laggy as fuck for me :P
16:00:45 <frosch123> i like the progress bar in windows explorer for network shares
16:01:16 <frosch123> they don't know how long it takes, they just make a progressbar that gets slower the longer it takes, and would never reach 100%
16:01:25 <frosch123> when it is done, it just animated quickly the rest of the way
16:01:35 <frosch123> it's totally a troll feature :)
16:01:44 <TrueBrain> but it helps keeping people calm :P
16:03:55 <TrueBrain> okay, the cloud storage is going to be a bit complicated, but I think that is possible without password indeed
16:04:03 <TrueBrain> we just have to setup encryption between cloud and client
16:05:00 <frosch123> the old "how to get a certificate store in ottd" problem :)
16:05:15 <TrueBrain> well, no, take this library for example, it can also setup a shared key
16:05:18 <TrueBrain> to use with encryption
16:05:26 <TrueBrain> so it is pretty easy implementation wise
16:05:36 <TrueBrain> you just .. have to trust you are talking to the correct remote
16:06:23 <TrueBrain> we can fix that by changing the email flow to have a webpage in between
16:06:29 <TrueBrain> which is https to openttd.org :)
16:06:43 <TrueBrain> delegate trust to webbrowser :D
16:07:15 <frosch123> oh, we can use that oauth2 workflow for embedded devices
16:07:42 <frosch123> ottd starts browser and already adds a session key to the login
16:07:51 <frosch123> which is used to generate/validate the invite code
16:08:00 <TrueBrain> can we open the browser on all OSes?
16:08:13 <frosch123> noone complained that it does not work
16:08:22 <TrueBrain> it is already in there? :o
16:08:33 <frosch123> bananas urls, newgrf urls, ai/gs urls
16:08:39 <frosch123> in ottd for > 10 years
16:08:52 <TrueBrain> so that would be even better, yes
16:09:12 <TrueBrain> I like this password-less world, honestly :P
16:10:15 <TrueBrain> but okay, lets first get P1 and P3 in, after that we can see how to do this :)
16:11:16 <frosch123> ah, found it. it's called "oauth2 device authorization flow"
16:11:37 <TrueBrain> bananas-frontend-cli uses it, I think :P
16:12:20 <frosch123> with that ottd does not need to validate the openttd.org authenticiy
16:12:33 <TrueBrain> the user can, indeed
16:12:40 <TrueBrain> well, the browser :P
16:13:15 <TrueBrain> owh, the device authorization flow is different from PKCE flow
16:13:20 <TrueBrain> OAuth has too many flows :P
16:14:10 <TrueBrain> ah, this does not require a local webserver, so that is good :)
16:14:15 <frosch123> well, the point is. ottd tells the browser with which server it can talk to. and the brwoser-login-process validates whether ottd actually talked to the right server
16:14:52 <TrueBrain> MITM can still happen, and a person can be direct to scamopenttd.org :P But I hope a user would spot that :D
16:15:39 <TrueBrain> direct = redirected, english hard
16:15:47 <frosch123> no, openttd would only open opentd.org, it would not just open any url
16:16:02 <TrueBrain> owh, you want to hardcode there the correct URL
16:16:10 <frosch123> yes, as we do for bananas
16:16:11 <TrueBrain> so not depend on the OAuth0 Tenant, as in that picture, to give the correct one
16:16:34 <frosch123> 1. ottd connects to server (which it thinks is legit) and exchanges session key
16:16:49 <frosch123> 2. ottd starts browser and let openttd.org validate the session key
16:17:03 <frosch123> 3. user copies invite code from browser into ottd
16:17:23 <TrueBrain> yeah, but the Device Auth flow you shows, the Tenant returns the URL to open for validation :)
16:17:26 <TrueBrain> you want to hard-code that
16:17:29 <TrueBrain> which is perfectly fine
16:17:40 <TrueBrain> (just a deviation :D)
16:17:50 <frosch123> oh, did not notice that :) but yes, i want that
16:17:56 <Wolf01> andythenorth, 2 words: adjacency bonus. Kindly suggested by a youtube video.
16:18:13 <TrueBrain> can still be MITM'd btw, but honestly .. that is not what we are trying to protect here :P
16:18:56 <frosch123> the verification_uri is validated by the ottd client, to match the hard-coded format
16:18:57 <TrueBrain> well, a simple IP check for both channel will do fine
16:19:06 <frosch123> it still contains some temporary keys
16:19:13 <TrueBrain> browser session needs to be of same IP as the ottd session
16:19:47 <frosch123> that breaks for proxies
16:19:58 <TrueBrain> where ottd is not proxied and browsers are?
16:20:16 <frosch123> people proxy browsers to watch illegal music or so
16:21:26 <TrueBrain> I think the device auth workflow kinda assumes everything happens over https :D
16:21:33 <andythenorth> Wolf01 pls start discussion thread, adjacency bonus
16:22:33 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I guess the browser session should return something to enter in the client directly
16:22:36 <TrueBrain> as that would prevent a MITM attack
16:22:56 <frosch123> yeah, ok, so no device workflow
16:23:10 <TrueBrain> it is a solid base, honestly
16:23:49 <TrueBrain> PKCE is not much different
16:24:56 <TrueBrain> I like device auth flow more; more what we want to do. We just have to find a way to promote the trust of the browser to ingame :)
16:25:16 <Wolf01> andythenorth: bonus is calculated between industries, stations (and station types), cities, landmarks?
16:25:20 <frosch123> yes, we need some mixture of device flow and pkce
16:25:26 <TrueBrain> I would almost suggest: put the access token in the browser-session too
16:25:35 <TrueBrain> copy/paste that back
16:25:44 <frosch123> ottd needs to create a session first. then the browser needs to validate that the session is valid
16:26:17 <TrueBrain> yeah, basically: ottd needs to start the browser with some verify-code, and the browser-session (or email, or what-ever) needs to return a challenge to put back in ottd
16:26:26 <TrueBrain> I think that is the only way to promote the trust from browser to ottd
16:27:50 <frosch123> hmm, some body parts demand food
16:28:02 <TrueBrain> yeah, time to make xmas dinner 1 of 4 for me :)
16:28:54 <andythenorth> Wolf01 bonus stored per city, or for specific industries / other things being adjacent?
16:31:27 <Wolf01> andythenorth also which kind of bonuses? Load/unload speed and payment should be mandatory, industry stockpile could work for grfs which support it, also production rates
16:32:51 <Wolf01> We already have statues
16:33:54 <Wolf01> We could do station addons which could be built once which affect the station properties or the served industry properties
16:34:49 <Wolf01> Also, something which gives a bonus to X may give a malus to Y
16:35:36 <andythenorth> station beautification bonuses
16:36:13 <Wolf01> Yup, nicer station than competitor attracts more goods
16:36:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JMcKiern commented on pull request #7981: Feature #7735: Implement protocol handling https://git.io/JL1v7
16:39:22 <Wolf01> Roads near farms reduce production? Maybe even a roadtype... dirt roads reduce less, highways reduce more. Roadtypes need a pollution score
16:40:51 <andythenorth> Wolf01 start a discussion :)
16:41:01 <andythenorth> the exact ideas are less interesting than what spec would achieve them
16:41:05 <andythenorth> like...who controls what
16:41:18 <andythenorth> LordAro nearly 50 items
16:41:38 <LordAro> it was nearly 200 before i removed all the backported things
16:41:59 <LordAro> 392 total commits since 1.10 branch
16:42:32 <andythenorth> I stopped reading notifications earlier this year, got a bit ragey
16:42:34 <andythenorth> I missed all this
16:45:16 <LordAro> 1.10.0-beta1 was 43 items, for reference
16:55:44 <TrueBrain> let's hope we can add a few more before we create a beta :D
16:56:07 <TrueBrain> (I have like 2 or 3 open PRs in mind, feature-wise :P)
16:56:09 <_dp_> yeah, so far amount of new features looks kinda disapointing :/
16:56:27 <TrueBrain> _dp_: might be from your perspective, but given the amount of activity, I am surprised it is this long :D
16:56:35 <LordAro> TrueBrain: as in, in the next 24 hours? :p
16:56:40 * andythenorth is opposite of disappointed
16:56:52 <TrueBrain> LordAro: and I hope we are not going to release beta1 in the next 24 hours :)
16:57:04 <LordAro> i was planning to (try to)...
16:57:18 <TrueBrain> well, I guess this year should be less usual honestly :D
16:57:29 <LordAro> no great effort to push it to new years, i suppose :p
16:57:48 <TrueBrain> personally, I would prefer if we hold off a bit, till we went through the current PR list
16:58:18 <TrueBrain> (not that they all have to be closed :P But I have like 10 not done, and a few that can be merged with some effort)
16:58:26 <LordAro> is fine, there's no real rush
16:58:27 <TrueBrain> of course we can do that after beta1 too, but .. meh :)
16:58:39 <LordAro> mm, beta1 isn't a freeze
16:58:45 <TrueBrain> yeah, it usually isn't
16:58:48 <TrueBrain> but I always find that odd :P
16:59:00 <TrueBrain> it is some weird soft line in the sand :)
16:59:04 <LordAro> naming scheme long predates me :p
16:59:22 <TrueBrain> but I kinda agree that the release cycle could have some attention
17:00:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7981: Feature #7735: Implement protocol handling https://git.io/JL1f7
17:00:52 <TrueBrain> which aligns more with my comment in ^^ :D
17:01:38 <TrueBrain> personally, I would love to have an "unstable" and "stable" stream, and that we push a new unstable every time we have a big new feature, and stable less often
17:01:44 <TrueBrain> a bit in line with what frosch123 says, I guess
17:01:54 <TrueBrain> and with a standalone launcher, we can also add streams for JGRPP etc
17:02:16 <TrueBrain> and yes, I like the view while sitting on this unicorn .. it looks really pretty :)
17:04:21 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I now see that for years we didn't even do betas :)
17:05:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JMcKiern commented on pull request #7981: Feature #7735: Implement protocol handling https://git.io/JL1JT
17:05:11 <TrueBrain> we once even did an RC1 10 days before release .. lol
17:05:42 <andythenorth> oog the FIRS backlog I keep here is kind of depressing
17:05:47 <andythenorth> I need to have a word with myself
17:06:08 <andythenorth> vehicle grfs never have the same problem
17:06:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7981: Feature #7735: Implement protocol handling https://git.io/JL1JI
17:06:39 <andythenorth> 'fix layouts so they can be built'
17:06:45 <andythenorth> 'fix closure behaviour'
17:06:49 <andythenorth> 'fix opening behaviour'
17:07:09 <andythenorth> 'fix incompatible industry checks'
17:07:22 <andythenorth> 'fix road detection for industries that need to be built in towns'
17:07:39 <andythenorth> 'fix probability
17:07:46 <TrueBrain> LordAro: so with 1.0.0 we started this beta1 on the 24th. This went on for 6 years, up till 1.5.0. Then we didn't do any betas for 3 years. Then we did betas on the weirdest dates :P
17:07:52 <TrueBrain> seems we no longer have a "release cycle" in that sense :D
17:08:12 <andythenorth> it's almost like industries are kind of forced into some old clunky structure :P
17:08:23 <andythenorth> where vehicles have almost complete freedom in the spec
17:08:25 <Wolf01> We don't even have a roadmap, or I might be blind
17:22:53 <frosch123> TrueBrain: LordAro: beta was added when the amount of backports after RC1 became too much. it's just a trick to add more testers
17:22:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JMcKiern commented on pull request #7981: Feature #7735: Implement protocol handling https://git.io/JL1Jx
17:23:36 <frosch123> so, we could also have automated betas every 3 months
17:43:49 <LordAro> (i fixed the commit message too)
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17:55:35 <andythenorth> deliver building materials to town, town will choose different buildings?
17:56:06 <andythenorth> it's really hard to think up economy mechanics that don't require acres of text in a window to explain them
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18:04:29 <Samu> Group by shared orders complicated the rebase of my Lifetime profit feature
18:09:45 *** jback has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
18:10:31 * andythenorth opinions about making content authoring easier?
18:11:06 <andythenorth> some things like 'build industry near a road tile' or 'get a property of a neighbouring train vehicle' are pretty tricky in nml
18:11:18 <andythenorth> options I though of to sanitise that
18:11:32 <andythenorth> * suck it up, every author writes their own nml
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18:12:04 <andythenorth> * increase the range of vars OpenTTD offers
18:12:32 <andythenorth> * bake stored procedures into the toolchain, so nml can just simulate providing extra vars
18:12:57 <andythenorth> * again the tool chain, but macros for actual nml not stored procedures (I dislike this but added it for completeness)
18:13:32 <andythenorth> * develop a helper library and ship it as some kind of module that authors can use
18:13:53 <andythenorth> I have example code for some of these to show cases and solutions, because words are very wordy
18:19:56 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:21:58 <Heiki> oh, sorry about that one
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18:23:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #8426: Simplify GUI to search server on internet or LAN https://git.io/JL1TA
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18:25:11 <Samu> unfinished language strings aren't being updated or checked for consistency with strgen
18:25:34 <LordAro> Samu: not particularly, but they're dead code really
18:25:41 <LordAro> they're not used at all
18:25:49 <LordAro> until someone picks them up again, they can be ignored
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18:45:56 <andythenorth> currently it relies on building a stack of switches, and chaining 'next switch'
18:46:22 <andythenorth> if the checks all just returned 0 or 1 I could just AND them or OR them as needed, one line
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18:52:57 <frosch123> be careful with that. the bigger the scope of a switch/procedure, the longer the va2 id remains blocked, the faster you run out of ids
18:54:29 <andythenorth> I ran into a similar issue with spritegroups last week
18:57:10 <andythenorth> it's quite interesting
18:57:43 <andythenorth> with a generator and procedures, it's really almost sane to write grfs
18:57:47 <andythenorth> until I hit the limits :P
18:58:39 <andythenorth> I do feel like I'm reinventing primitive computing here but eh
19:04:51 <_dp_> Am I missing something or has DC_NO_RAIL_OVERLAP been unused for ages?
19:10:01 <frosch123> _dp_: yes, it's oldai stuff :)
19:10:19 <frosch123> so, unused since 0.7
19:12:15 <TrueBrain> Well, I am not sorry I removed the old AI so you can suck it :p
19:12:49 <TrueBrain> Funny how some remnants still appear :D
19:13:05 <TrueBrain> I mean .. 13 years later now? :)
19:20:21 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: borg was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 33 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <Borg> if that would be an network game. you had to transfer 1GB?
19:21:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8413: Fix: Don't lower tree density if spreading is not enabled https://git.io/JL1Lk
19:23:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8415: Feature: Add an option to disable tree growth completely https://git.io/JL1Lq
19:25:11 <TrueBrain> well, adding 1 option to an existing setting
19:25:40 <TrueBrain> (if you disagree btw, let me know, ofc :) )
19:26:29 <TrueBrain> seriously, wtf ... that is amazing
19:27:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JL1Ll
19:27:17 <TrueBrain> added an image to understand why it is wow
19:30:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JL1LE
19:30:23 <TrueBrain> _dp_: don't be like this .... :P :P
19:30:30 <TrueBrain> putting salt in deep wounds :P
19:31:50 <andythenorth> we should always remember
19:31:56 <andythenorth> former 'us' were fucking idiots
19:31:59 <andythenorth> and we should be kind
19:32:09 <_dp_> I tried to review a pr but so far only finding issues in openttd itself :p
19:32:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #8426: Simplify GUI to search server on internet or LAN https://git.io/JL1LV
19:32:40 <TrueBrain> frosch123 is not going to like preview mode ... :P It made spotting this too easy :D
19:33:10 <_dp_> haha, I was waiting for a preview of that pr as well xD
19:33:35 <TrueBrain> and I love that I can paste images on GitHub
19:33:43 <TrueBrain> means I don't have random images all over my local disk :P
19:33:46 <andythenorth> Action 14 to communicate what town register numbers are used for what industry <-> towns (or go home)
19:33:56 * andythenorth talking to Tyler about economy stuff
19:34:13 <frosch123> it's weird you made a preview, when the buttons are disabled in emscripten
19:34:33 <TrueBrain> disabled doesn't mean invisible :)
19:35:21 <TrueBrain> (and I made the preview to validate they were disabled, I have to admit :P)
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19:39:47 <TrueBrain> TooTallTyler: your savegame is sick :P
19:40:10 <andythenorth> WASM or didn't happen
19:40:17 <andythenorth> I'm not compiling the patch :P
19:41:19 <TrueBrain> or "the", even worse :P
19:44:13 <TooTallTyler> It was helpful for trial-and-error testing and I figured I'd include it
19:50:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8416: Change: [Linkgraph] Allow job threads to be aborted early when clearing schedule https://git.io/JL1Lj
19:52:23 <TrueBrain> that PR was created 2 years ago now, our oldest PR :D
19:52:34 <TrueBrain> well, in 5 days, 2 years
19:52:40 <frosch123> it was already closed
19:53:08 <andythenorth> it's funny how things fall in holes
19:55:49 <frosch123> TrueBrain: that PR is dead. if someone needs something, they need to start from scratch
19:57:46 <TrueBrain> I did not properly read the comments, I see; my apologizes :D
20:00:22 <TrueBrain> will see if I can write a proper reply to that PR after xmas :D
20:01:41 <andythenorth> I do want the original var from 7000
20:01:48 <andythenorth> but not enough to do anything about it currently
20:02:08 <andythenorth> I 'solved' it for me because I only use one relevant set of railtypes
20:02:14 <andythenorth> so I never see the problem in my games
20:02:18 <andythenorth> but I get bug reports from players
20:03:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 updated pull request #8426: Simplify GUI to search server on internet or LAN https://git.io/JL1TA
20:05:32 <frosch123> TrueBrain: basically, i am not interested in reviewing any newgrf feature, until there is a group of people who fix nrt
20:05:45 <frosch123> newgrf fixes are fine
20:06:17 <TrueBrain> I would like to know what is wrong with NRT (like, I honestly do not know), but it is xmas, and I promised you I will not bring up NRT :D
20:06:33 <TrueBrain> so lets keep that for another day :)
20:07:00 <TrueBrain> and about what you are saying: understood, will process PRs as such :)
20:09:20 <milek7> I don't understand what frosch wants to do here at all
20:10:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7193: Fix #6468: Load correct version of AI as specified during the time of its save. https://git.io/JL1qt
20:10:21 <frosch123> it's an attempt so people can only follow/stalk you, if you agree
20:11:00 <frosch123> server will not tell you who is online, unless you prove that you are their friend
20:12:17 <TrueBrain> jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the wayyyy
20:12:47 <milek7> frosch123: thanks, this one sentence is a lot more clear than what is in the comment :P
20:13:40 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i never use "request changes". for some reason gh does not invalidate them after push
20:13:52 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is VERY annoying indeed
20:14:06 <TrueBrain> like .. that is not useful at all GitHub
20:14:19 <TrueBrain> you can click on it btw, and re-request review
20:14:26 <TrueBrain> I think that is how they intend their workflow
20:14:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8426: Simplify GUI to search server on internet or LAN https://git.io/JL1q3
20:15:14 <frosch123> it was a weird window. i removed some code to get the sizing right
20:15:32 <andythenorth> I have not been talking about NRT, owing to some guily
20:15:38 <TrueBrain> preview looks good now :)
20:15:53 <andythenorth> but at some point I will do NRT Road Hog, and we might find some things out
20:15:58 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: we are not talking about NRT.
20:16:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: wrap more presents for children?
20:16:30 <frosch123> don't you have to finish till tomorrow?
20:16:37 <andythenorth> not many this year
20:16:43 <andythenorth> it's kind of horribly ironic that I campaigned for NRT and haven't made a grf with it
20:16:47 <andythenorth> I am kind of aware :P
20:17:07 <andythenorth> it's just so addictive making Horse :P
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20:17:15 <andythenorth> the train spec is so complete and mostly easy to work with
20:17:22 <andythenorth> I have an idea...I do an idea
20:17:54 <TrueBrain> the PR grew a bit out of hand :P
20:19:48 <andythenorth> release FIRS 4, do next thing
20:19:53 <andythenorth> what is next thing!?
20:19:58 <andythenorth> pls don't say CSS
20:20:06 <frosch123> TrueBrain: what happened to your led project?
20:20:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8416: Change: [Linkgraph] Allow job threads to be aborted early when clearing schedule https://git.io/JL1q0
20:20:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: prioritized OpenTTD over it :( Mainly as they arrived REALLY late :(
20:21:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7851: [WIP] Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys https://git.io/JL1qz
20:22:12 <andythenorth> oh that is very interesting
20:22:18 <andythenorth> it's like a product idea I have
20:22:20 <TrueBrain> I like it when people can defend their choices; makes reviewing so incredibly easy :D (refering to #8416)
20:22:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: you literally have seen my face ... do I look like that? Like, really?
20:22:50 <TrueBrain> but yes, I could have done that :P
20:22:56 <TrueBrain> so I can understand that :D
20:23:04 <TrueBrain> that guy is (in a positive way) insane btw :P
20:24:02 <milek7> there is no snow this year, no motivation to setup lights :P
20:24:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7851: [WIP] Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys https://git.io/JL1qP
20:25:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8416: Change: [Linkgraph] Allow job threads to be aborted early when clearing schedule https://git.io/JL1qX
20:25:39 <TrueBrain> so many approvals tonight :P Sadly, small patches that were created recently ..... :P
20:26:06 <andythenorth> TooTallTyler so how do we think this cargos -> town idea would work?
20:26:21 <andythenorth> the town grows, but stays 'primitive' until certain cargos are delivered?
20:26:49 <TrueBrain> waiiiiitttt a minutteeeee
20:26:56 <andythenorth> but implemented differently
20:27:14 <andythenorth> it's a test of something, using existing spec
20:27:21 <Wolf01> I'm so bored that bad thoughts happen. I need to change my desk :|
20:27:32 <TooTallTyler> Yeah. Advanced buildings like skyscrapers only build when the town has received building supplies or whatever in the past month
20:27:38 <TrueBrain> milek7: from the discussions, is it a bit clear for you how to implement Phase 1 and Phase 3? Need any more info or help there?
20:27:42 <andythenorth> and that would limit the population?
20:28:08 <TooTallTyler> No, it would still grow basic houses which have no limitations
20:28:43 <TooTallTyler> ITL limits the number of skyscrapers by house population. I think it's 1000 people per skyscraper but I'll have to check the code
20:29:30 <andythenorth> it would limit the population *density*? :)
20:30:43 <TooTallTyler> Actually, it might be good to have flats need building supplies too. They add 100 population each and spike the population as soon as they're invented in 1945.
20:32:29 <Samu> Wormnest explains it best
20:33:37 <andythenorth> town growth is a bit of poisoned chalice
20:33:48 <andythenorth> I always grow a couple of towns to build a big pax network
20:33:57 <andythenorth> but growing too many, the map gets full
20:34:15 <andythenorth> but also I made FIRS Steeltown scrap production depend on town population
20:34:57 <TrueBrain> Samu: I am not interested in a treasure hunt for information :) We have plenty of stuff to do as it is, so if you want me to review your PR, make my life easier, and invest some time in your own PRs :) It would help greatly! Tnx :)
20:36:34 <TooTallTyler> Yeah, I'm all for forcing town growth to be intentional
20:39:24 <andythenorth> ok, so I get a FIRS 4 beta done, then I explore this town register idea
20:39:49 <andythenorth> it doesn't depend on actual cargos, it depends on the industries writing to a register to say 'happy' or not
20:39:58 <andythenorth> which I think simplifies a great deal of it
20:40:22 <TooTallTyler> Yes, and that would enable you to choose different growth cargos in different economies, and ITL won't care
20:40:33 <andythenorth> TooTallTyler is it boolean 0/1, or like 16 values, or 255 values or something?
20:40:44 <andythenorth> how granular is the choice you can make?
20:41:05 <TooTallTyler> I think boolean Happy/Not Happy would be sufficient
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20:41:44 <TooTallTyler> Maybe two levels of cargo could be interesting. Flats require one cargo, skyscrapers require two.
20:43:00 <TrueBrain> Samu: owh, and remember: it is not only important to know what the bug was (for which you can link that issue just fine), but also why you think this solution is the correct one to fix that problem. What is your reasoning, what was your intention with this fix, why you think this should be it
20:43:26 <TrueBrain> as just seeing code .. is not enough for that :) Nor is knowing what the bug is you think you are fixing :) Don't make us do all the work :)
20:46:06 <andythenorth> TooTallTyler I'll have a look at other economies
20:46:39 <andythenorth> current thinking is for Steeltown, where there is a builder's yard that accepts 3 different cargos, but would report 'happy or not'
20:46:51 <andythenorth> and a vehicle distributor, with one cargo, and similar
20:48:23 <andythenorth> oh...can we do negative values? :)
20:49:08 <TooTallTyler> Wouldn't that just be a 0 / Not Happy?
20:49:52 <andythenorth> I need some way to control industries writing to the register
20:50:03 <andythenorth> I have lots of registers, they can probably communicate :P
20:51:11 <andythenorth> peat, the worst fuel to burn environmentally :|
20:51:34 <andythenorth> build a geothermal plant, supply ensp monthly, town is happy
20:51:39 <andythenorth> oh this could open up hydro as well :)
20:51:51 <andythenorth> we need industries that can flood areas :P
20:54:03 <TooTallTyler> Was it Warren Buffet who said the first trillionaire would make their fortune in green tech?
20:55:08 <andythenorth> I am pretty aware that Steeltown does not feature battery EV factory :P
20:55:13 <andythenorth> nor carbon capture facility
20:58:34 * andythenorth going to add a gas grid to FIRS :P
20:58:43 <milek7> TrueBrain: I'll just implement P1-P3 later and discuss then
20:58:43 <milek7> honestly these discussions are not useful, without some sort of dev board voting
20:58:43 <milek7> as everbody just dumps their idea, but that doesn't give information whether we actually want that or no
20:59:19 <TrueBrain> I would skip P2 for now honestly
20:59:23 <andythenorth> milek7 ^ that is pretty neat description of one of the unsolved problems :)
20:59:26 <andythenorth> Apache votes? o_O
20:59:28 <TrueBrain> and P3 comments show what people would like; that needs no voting really
20:59:34 <TrueBrain> it is just more: what is realistic to implement as first
20:59:41 <TrueBrain> and that is up to who-ever writes it, honestly
20:59:44 <TrueBrain> we have to start somewhere
20:59:49 <TrueBrain> but at least now you can keep in mind what the requests are
21:00:57 <TooTallTyler> andythenorth: You might try the waste production of my industry set paired with ITL. I think it would be a fun addition to FIRS :)
21:01:31 <TrueBrain> milek7: I think one of the things that became clear from the discussions that it would be nice if we can use a library that can also be used from Python etc
21:01:34 <TrueBrain> dunno what is possible there
21:01:58 <andythenorth> TooTallTyler what's the mechanic? :)
21:02:51 <TooTallTyler> Houses produce Waste which you can collect and ship to the Recycling Center for sorting
21:03:03 <TooTallTyler> Much like the Recycling Depot, but produced by houses directly
21:03:14 <TooTallTyler> I need to finish my garbage truck set
21:10:28 <TooTallTyler> Also workers at industries, but I'll make a video explaining those sometime
21:13:02 <andythenorth> I've considered industry workers, but it's not a direction I want to take
21:13:15 <andythenorth> it's easier for me to only have one 'supply' cargo
21:13:28 <TooTallTyler> They're not a supply cargo for me. Just another thing to transport
21:13:47 <TooTallTyler> And they spice up passenger networks beyond simply connecting towns to each other
21:14:28 <TooTallTyler> I also have pretty strong rules putting industries in or near towns. Maybe too strong for a set with as many industries as FIRS but it's one of my favorite features
21:15:12 <TooTallTyler> I've been meaning to make videos explaining these features to players
21:22:31 <andythenorth> video is the new thing eh
21:22:34 <andythenorth> do a livestream :P
21:24:15 <TooTallTyler> Oh no, I need the power of editing
21:25:58 <Timberwolf> I never edit anything, which explains a lot really.
21:26:06 <Timberwolf> I claim it's a "stylistic choice"
21:28:32 <andythenorth> from a lot of material :|
21:29:03 <andythenorth> I had friends in school who could write 1000 words for a 1000 word essay then stop
21:29:15 <andythenorth> I wrote 4-5000 words and edited :|
21:31:59 <milek7> oh no, 1000 word essay
21:32:43 <milek7> I struggled with every sentence, but thankfully there was only requirement for 250 :P
21:35:10 <TooTallTyler> My first published work was 2500 words when I submitted it to the magazine for consideration, and they told me they'd publish if I edited it down to 250 words :P
21:35:27 <TooTallTyler> The photo was the size of a postage stamp
21:57:38 <Timberwolf> I should make Tracks use the 64-sprite junction layout so it can have nice points like the Roads tram rails.
22:04:38 <TooTallTyler> That would be very pretty
22:06:28 <andythenorth> right FIRS 4 or bust now
22:06:37 <andythenorth> not today, but Beta by New Year
22:10:04 <andythenorth> if I die now, I will regret that comment
22:10:13 <andythenorth> I'll regret that too :)
22:11:07 <TooTallTyler> So no NewGRF competition for you? I'm going to give it a go.
22:12:43 <andythenorth> good to see though
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23:29:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7193: Fix #6468: Load correct version of AI as specified during the time of its save. https://git.io/JL1sX
23:29:57 <Samu> damn i should've been in bed already
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23:36:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8416: Change: [Linkgraph] Allow job threads to be aborted early when clearing schedule https://git.io/JLPtt
23:36:49 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8413: Fix: Don't lower tree density if spreading is not enabled https://git.io/JL6H9
23:36:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8415: Feature: Add an option to disable tree growth completely https://git.io/JLi5i
23:37:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzst
23:40:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #8426: Simplify GUI to search server on internet or LAN https://git.io/JL1TA
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23:41:27 <TrueBrain> Mmmmmmonsterspreeee
23:41:56 <michi_cc> Now I can at least feel usefull on christmas eve :)
23:43:25 <TrueBrain> Good start of the Xmas days :)
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23:49:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7589: Change: Always apply inflation from 1920 to 2090, no matter the game start year. https://git.io/fjWc7
23:49:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7589: Change: Always apply inflation from 1920 to 2090, no matter the game start year. https://git.io/JL1sh
continue to next day ⏵
