IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-12-07
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01:01:01 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i caught forum backups. that didn't happen in quite a while
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07:37:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on pull request #8357: Codechange: Drop libxdg-basedir dependency in favour of finding the directories ourselves https://git.io/JI8JI
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09:34:11 <TrueBrain> LordAro: bananas-1 and bananas-2 are being deployed to production as we speak .. takes ~5 minutes .. pam pam pammmmm
09:37:41 <TrueBrain> ugh, CDK is taking its sweet time today ... cold run are the worst :P
09:46:37 <TrueBrain> seems to be working :)
09:47:29 <TrueBrain> massive amount of traffic on the VPSes all of a sudden :P
09:48:43 <TrueBrain> IPv4 and IPv6 are working too
09:49:30 <Wolf01> Oh right, I tried to figure why someone would be happy to see me :P
09:51:06 <TrueBrain> just accept it Wolf01 , no need to go all geek over that :P
09:51:36 <Wolf01> I already accepted it, I was scared :P
09:52:41 <LordAro> Wolf01: who said i wasn't?
09:54:35 <TrueBrain> funny, 50/50 odds to hit 1 VPS or the other .. but one currently is clearly more used than the other :P
09:55:11 <TrueBrain> I still think some users just download everything for no other reason than .. because they can
09:55:31 <TrueBrain> this user just downloaded 30 gamescripts
09:55:37 <TrueBrain> I cannot see any logical reason to do that
09:55:53 <TrueBrain> and after that 150 NewGRFs
09:57:52 <TrueBrain> I mean ... can you do a "select all" or something?
09:59:34 <TrueBrain> LordAro: fun fact, one of the IPs used to host a site with news :P
09:59:37 <TrueBrain> bots still crawling :D
09:59:54 <TrueBrain> 600 NewGRFs downloaded by this one dude .. seriously .. how?
10:01:09 <TrueBrain> from the GUI you cannot select all .. from the console?
10:01:14 <LordAro> there's defintely no "tick all" button, is there?
10:01:26 <LordAro> that's some dedication to download everything
10:01:46 <TrueBrain> you can from the console
10:01:52 <TrueBrain> can we please remove that?
10:04:40 <orudge> I think your latest news post has promoted a surge in donations by the way, TrueBrain. Had more donations in the past few days than I think we had all last month!
10:04:54 <TrueBrain> lol; that was .. not the intention
10:04:56 <TrueBrain> but that is very kind
10:05:17 <TrueBrain> yeah, via console you can download all
10:05:23 <TrueBrain> wtf ..... that is not cool
10:06:16 <orudge> How many GB of content is on bananas?
10:07:17 <TrueBrain> I could download ~800MB that way with 3 commands
10:07:34 <TrueBrain> and clearly people are doing that .. for some weird reason :P
10:07:54 <Xaroth> can't get issues with content missing if you have all the content, right?
10:09:55 <TrueBrain> going to download the logs of a month to see how often this happens :)
10:12:48 <TrueBrain> orudge: I guess now the question is, is that amount enough to attempt cloud saves? :D :P
10:23:05 <TrueBrain> hmm ... the GUI has a flow where you can select all, but it can be hidden .. not sure what triggers that :D
10:23:20 <TrueBrain> I think joining servers can
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10:33:46 <TrueBrain> pretty sure frosch had this nice script to plot stuff .. I don't want to figure it out on my own :P Bah
10:34:12 <LordAro> TrueBrain: joining servers selects all missing
10:34:23 <TrueBrain> okay, so yeah, that is fine
10:34:31 <TrueBrain> the "bug" is that via the console, you can just select everything :D
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10:38:09 <TrueBrain> cannot find the gist frosch showed the other day, bah :P
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10:44:49 <LordAro> grep "<frosch12.*>.*gist.github.com" ? :p
10:45:06 <orudge> TrueBrain: depends what that's likely to cost :P Cloud saves = stick your Documents folder in OneDrive/Dropbox/whatever and autosync? Or alternatively, add a "login with github" button, then store all your saved games in a git repository :D
10:45:22 <TrueBrain> haha, I like that last idea :P
10:45:30 <TrueBrain> nah, I estimated it would cost ~1 euro per month per active user
10:45:34 <TrueBrain> it is a bit expensive :P
10:45:38 <TrueBrain> I need to research it a bit more :)
10:46:24 <orudge> There are stats on the Microsoft portal about how many of the Windows Store users use the game regularly. Not sure it's in the thousands but if it's in the hundreds and they're all using cloud saves that could be pricy. :D Now, if we charge them $5/month to host their cloud saves or whatever...
10:47:10 <TrueBrain> I seriously considered making it subscription based
10:47:12 <orudge> Or maybe they just need to provide their own S3 bucket ID or whatever it is, then they deal with the billing
10:47:18 <TrueBrain> but ... a lot needs to be done to get at that point, honestly :)
10:47:39 <TrueBrain> now first I want to plot this data ... no clue how :D
10:47:40 <orudge> Might need that OpenTTD Distribution Ltd or whatever we were going to call it
10:48:14 <orudge> Might yet need to do something like that to code sign the macOS builds, because it seems to be tightened up increasingly with each macOS release.
10:50:55 <orudge> We're having fun at work, got a new code signing certificate for Windows, and despite it all being a proper certificate, etc, Microsoft's SmartScreen is still blocking our builds because we haven't built up a sufficient reputation apparently (there was a company name change between our old and new certificates). Most users can click an "OK, continue" button but our own IT department have
10:51:01 <orudge> turned the security level up to max so we can't install our own builds without jumping through several hoops.
10:51:23 <TrueBrain> that is a known issue, yes
10:51:28 <TrueBrain> the certificate alone is not enough
10:51:45 <orudge> Because of this company name change our domains have also changed, so the download location is now new too :D
10:51:57 <LordAro> have run into similar issues myself
10:54:08 <TrueBrain> why am I having a hard time just drawing a graph :P
10:59:53 <TrueBrain> matplotlib has issues plotting a simple graph, it seems :(
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11:04:06 <orudge> TrueBrain: happy for me to renew the new OVH VPSes for 1 year each?
11:05:27 <orudge> Only downside to renewing for 1 year is I don't know what happens if we need to upgrade a VPS (don't know if you get a credit etc)
11:05:31 <orudge> Do you think that's likely?
11:05:42 <TrueBrain> very unlikely, I would say
11:05:46 <TrueBrain> it is more likely we add VPSes
11:05:58 <TrueBrain> and seriously, 4*12 pounds .. :P
11:06:53 <orudge> The price seems to have gone up by £1/month though
11:07:20 <TrueBrain> you and your 20% Tax rate :P
11:08:06 <orudge> Maybe the first month was under a special deal, not sure
11:08:19 <orudge> Anyway, it's not a massive deal
11:08:24 <TrueBrain> I still see it for 3.39 poun
11:08:26 <orudge> Still cheaper than AWS
11:08:29 <TrueBrain> but that is for a new one
11:08:41 <TrueBrain> you could also rent 2 new ones and ask LordAro to provision them :P
11:08:54 <orudge> Hmm, I think OVH is getting confused perhaps in their invoice page
11:08:58 <TrueBrain> but yeah, it is still cheaper than AWS :P
11:09:04 <TrueBrain> so I don't really care
11:09:11 <orudge> It's showing £48 ex VAT now at checkout, which is what I expected
11:09:14 <orudge> So yeah, fine, will just get that paid
11:10:18 <TrueBrain> okay, I got a plot, but it is difficult to plot what is going on :D
11:10:24 <TrueBrain> I need to stack this .. hmm ..
11:11:28 <TrueBrain> or what is it called .. that you add the previous value to your own .. euh ..
11:11:34 <TrueBrain> boy, my brain is not on today :D
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11:16:46 <LordAro> ideally anyone else should be able to provision them as well :p
11:29:28 <TrueBrain> -most- people download < 100 files a month from BaNaNaS
11:29:34 <TrueBrain> -most- people are good for < 10% of the bandwidth
11:30:03 <TrueBrain> euh, last 10% is 90%, oops
11:30:13 <TrueBrain> but this plot is not rotated in the way I would likeit .. hmm
11:33:19 <TrueBrain> hmm .. no, I do not know how to read a graph
11:33:24 <TrueBrain> let me do proper math before I talk
11:37:50 <LordAro> presumably that is not actually a command, and i haven't quieted TB
11:40:45 <TrueBrain> there might be another problem why we do 4TB a month :D
11:41:06 <TrueBrain> 80% of the people use 0.2TB
11:41:12 <TrueBrain> 90% of the people use 0.6TB
11:41:23 <TrueBrain> yeah ..... there is another issue at play :D
11:41:43 <LordAro> so 10% of people use 3.4TB/month ?
11:42:28 <TrueBrain> the graph strongly suggests that
11:42:30 <LordAro> the jumps are a bit weird
11:42:44 <TrueBrain> not really, if you consider the console "select all"
11:42:49 <TrueBrain> which you can limit to "newgrfs"
11:42:53 <TrueBrain> I have to confirm that
11:43:15 <TrueBrain> but it is difficult to process this amount of data :P
11:43:37 <TrueBrain> the amount of files is a very smooth graph
11:43:48 <TrueBrain> but I can plot per type, I guess ...i let me figure out how :P
11:43:59 <TrueBrain> well, after lunch :D
11:47:06 <TrueBrain> ah, it seems to be if zbase/abase is downloaded or not, by the user, those jumps :)
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11:59:21 <TrueBrain> I do not fully understand matplot yet, as the x-axis is a bit weird ..
12:02:47 <TrueBrain> okay, the axis means something else than I was thinking :D That is the issue :P
12:02:55 <TrueBrain> it is the amount that user downloaded
12:03:10 <TrueBrain> ugh, it has been too long ago I did this kind of math :P
12:04:30 <TrueBrain> 1 user downloaded 8GB worth of content, gotcha :)
12:04:50 <TrueBrain> so 80% of the users download less than 100MB from BaNaNaS :)
12:05:03 <TrueBrain> so I need to do some more math, to add up those values
12:11:36 <Xaroth> That's a lot of NewGRF...
12:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> we should add a torrent client to openttd :p
12:42:32 <TrueBrain> okay, showing a single graph with all the categories turns out to be not so useful :D
12:44:19 <TrueBrain> right, so 20% of our users are good for 3TB of data .. where 80% is good for ~300GB (total)
12:44:29 <TrueBrain> this time I am pretty sure it is correct :P
12:51:33 <TrueBrain> I could have normalized the files downloaded too, I guess
13:00:38 <TrueBrain> so yes, 70% of the traffic is done by 10% of the people
13:07:08 <TrueBrain> still a huge bill to run on AWS, but at least significant less so :P
13:10:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8363: Remove: console command "content select all" https://git.io/JI8hm
13:10:40 <TrueBrain> we can most likely mitigate most of that by ^^
13:11:07 <TrueBrain> and I wonder if we should pull a Docker Hub here, where we rate limit how people can use the service :D
13:17:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8363: Remove: console command "content select all" https://git.io/JI8jO
13:17:21 <LordAro> will probably take a while though :p
13:17:30 <TrueBrain> I assume the first of April ;)
13:20:47 <_dp_> I somehow doubt 20% of users used that console command...
13:22:42 <TrueBrain> I found at least 100 people doing it in a month, but yeah, it is possible there are other ways people ... "use" this system :)
13:32:23 <TrueBrain> so this user on Discord is trying to explain why he downloads everything .. but I still don't understand :(
13:41:42 <TrueBrain> "So I have it", was the conclusion. Okay, that is a valid reason, but not one I want to supply :)
13:44:08 <LordAro> it doesn't *re*download everything, does it?
13:44:18 <LordAro> regardless of whether you've already got it
13:44:35 <TrueBrain> it acts like the ingame GUI
13:44:39 <TrueBrain> so if you haveit, it won't download it
13:44:48 <TrueBrain> but people seem to trash their archive, and download it again
13:45:30 <LordAro> probably worth pointing out that these same people will probably still just "select newgrf; select baseset; ..."
13:45:44 <TrueBrain> can you? Owh bah ...
13:46:55 <LordAro> sorry, i made assumptions
13:47:23 <LordAro> they might downgrade to 1.10 to do it though :p
13:47:25 <LordAro> or just never upgrade
13:47:37 <TrueBrain> okay, this dude's conclusion is: your BaNaNaS download is less bandwidth than a Netflix movie, so it is okay if I do it
13:47:45 <TrueBrain> glad to know we have assholes on Discord too :)
13:48:17 <LordAro> i don't *personally* have any issues with people downloading the entire archive
13:48:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8363: Remove: console command "content select all" https://git.io/JI8hm
13:48:29 <LordAro> the asshole thing is wiping it out and downloading from scratch
13:48:51 <TrueBrain> and over 100 people doing it, monthly :)
13:48:58 <TrueBrain> the other solution is really ratelimiting :)
13:52:51 <TrueBrain> LordAro: my issue with downloading everything is that it cannot be considered Fair Use of a service :)
13:52:55 <_dp_> hm, I can understand few weirdos like that but not 100/month
13:53:03 <TrueBrain> but yeah, this one user that does it 4 times a month.. that is just odd :P
13:53:13 <TrueBrain> _dp_: my issue exactly :)
13:53:16 <TrueBrain> so what is behind this behaviour
13:53:23 <TrueBrain> some post talking about doing it?
13:53:28 <TrueBrain> people thinking they need it to host a server?
13:54:59 <longtomjr> make it p2p :P Turn the folks downloading everything into hosts
13:55:24 <_dp_> TrueBrain, and nothing suspicious about their ips?
13:55:35 <TrueBrain> _dp_: not really, no
13:55:46 <TrueBrain> at least, not from what I can tell :D
13:58:56 <TrueBrain> right, I was not wrong, it is advise people give others
13:59:05 <LordAro> TrueBrain: ask them to make a donation to help pay for their unusual usage
13:59:15 <LordAro> and if not, block their IP :p
14:14:04 <milek7> that wouldn't be exactly 'donation'
14:14:33 <TrueBrain> wait, payment for service != donation? :P
14:20:15 <milek7> so, these vps didn't solve cost problems?
14:20:44 <TrueBrain> but the balance in how BaNaNaS is used is wrong
14:20:48 <TrueBrain> which deserves attention :)
14:20:59 <LordAro> milek7: it could be argued that they solve the wrong problem
14:21:07 <TrueBrain> ^^ :D Nicely worded
14:21:41 <LordAro> or perhaps are the wrong solution to the same problem
14:21:56 <TrueBrain> I should have looked at the traffic pattern earlier :)
14:21:58 <TrueBrain> did not ealise it :)
14:21:59 <LordAro> fixes the symptom, not the cause
14:22:01 <LordAro> that one, i like that one
14:24:25 <LordAro> i still think it'd be a good idea to merge z/abase
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14:37:56 <TrueBrain> why is there an andythenorth_corner ? :D
14:47:34 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I like this suggestion: allow clients to download GRFs from the server upon joining .. with BaNaNaS to validate MD5s or something :D
14:48:44 <LordAro> i feel like that would run into all sorts of redistribution issues very quickly
14:49:28 <TrueBrain> it is so common for other games .. why did we complicate shit with licenses?
14:49:40 <TrueBrain> we should just have made a second license mandatory .. "all content uploaded also must have this license"
15:25:52 <TrueBrain> orudge: btw, increase in donations can also be related to yogcast, ofc ;)
15:26:14 <TrueBrain> but that you should be able to see with next year :D
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16:11:48 <orudge> TrueBrain: oh, have we been yogscasted again?
16:11:57 <orudge> I shall get the accounts drawn up for this year shortly
16:12:11 <orudge> I think donations have been quieter, but again, we still have a pile of money saved up so no real urgency for donations
16:12:17 <orudge> Might change next year with AWS bills though :)
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17:15:58 <andythenorth> I would end up making 100 wagons for it
17:16:09 <andythenorth> it's nice though eh
17:16:17 <Wolf01> 16 is the max for the game
17:16:32 <andythenorth> make it a word :P
17:16:38 <andythenorth> a byte is so limiting
17:17:55 <andythenorth> hmm I was being silly, but there probably is a correlation
17:18:12 <andythenorth> binary maths in arrays, and wagons on sidings have similarities
17:18:48 <Wolf01> It's a shunting puzzle, you shift rolling stock :P
17:19:14 <Wolf01> Also the hopper is fantastic
17:19:31 <andythenorth> shift left or shift right? :P
17:21:23 <Wolf01> With enough parts and will to project, I would have done a 'timesaver' one
17:21:40 <Wolf01> I reverse engineered and built this one just today
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17:42:08 <LordAro> is that the sort of setting that only affects running games?
17:42:47 <TrueBrain> like anyone can ever remember that :P
17:44:06 <_dp_> mb it was cached somehow
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18:07:35 <frosch123> TrueBrain: still reading up. but the content-select-all thingie is for dedicated servers
18:07:48 <frosch123> otherwise you cannot load savegames on them
18:07:56 <TrueBrain> so you download ALL grfs?
18:08:01 <TrueBrain> like .. ALL of them, instead? :)
18:08:04 <frosch123> possibly you could add a if _dedicated though :p
18:08:16 <TrueBrain> or ... we make something that downloads the GRF for that savegame ;)
18:08:28 <frosch123> TrueBrain: noone wanted to implement a console command "load content for this savegame" :)
18:08:36 <TrueBrain> well, now we have neither again :)
18:09:11 <frosch123> oh, you already removed it
18:09:26 <TrueBrain> I was as shocked as you were how quick that review was :P
18:09:39 <TrueBrain> guess the image said it all :D
18:10:42 <frosch123> that's definitely not servers :p
18:10:57 <TrueBrain> keep on reading my friend, we will talk after :)
18:11:08 <frosch123> the regular player i would rahter expect to manually click them all
18:19:05 <frosch123> well, all the image links were already dead
18:19:59 <TrueBrain> I removed all those who were faulty :)
18:20:29 <TrueBrain> but the forum link was the missing link for me :)
18:21:35 <frosch123> edit forum and censor it? :p
18:22:03 <TrueBrain> well, the function itself is just a bad idea
18:22:06 <TrueBrain> and from some talk with some people
18:22:09 <TrueBrain> there are those that indeed abuse it
18:23:08 <TrueBrain> still it sounds like a lot of people doing it .. not sure what else causes people to download so many files
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18:23:32 <frosch123> i don't think the console command is the issue
18:23:41 <frosch123> othweise you would have a spike at 100%
18:23:49 <TrueBrain> it is the only place I could find that allows you to download all files at once
18:23:50 <frosch123> but there are also many people with 90%
18:24:17 <TrueBrain> various of reasons that can be a bit skewed
18:24:25 <TrueBrain> for example, the top #1 user downloaded everything 4 times
18:24:48 <TrueBrain> and matplotlib interpolates values in a histogram
18:24:53 <TrueBrain> I had no clue how to fix that :D
18:25:25 <TrueBrain> but I am open for alternative ideas :D
18:25:40 <TrueBrain> I can see from the traffic the downloads happen one at the time over an hour or so
18:25:50 <frosch123> well, i only understand statistics that i faked myself
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18:26:04 <frosch123> but i would have expected a less smooth curve when the console command was the issue
18:26:31 <TrueBrain> I think that is the binning effect .. can I make a simple plot .. hmm
18:27:20 <frosch123> i guess easiest solution is to patch bananas-server to only accep 70 downloads at once (that is slightly more than the multiplayer newgrf limit)
18:27:49 <frosch123> hmm, unless ottd makes separate connections for each download
18:27:50 <TrueBrain> I wanted to prevent rate limiting of any kind till we understood a bit what we are looking at
18:28:02 <TrueBrain> and the client already does it in chunks
18:28:07 <TrueBrain> no clue how many, but chunks :P
18:30:07 <TrueBrain> [4223166434, 4778245232, 4790854854, 5263381727, 7089034803, 7184641298, 7186918569, 7957584734, 8002131933, 8004379769] <- top 10 in bytes downloaded
18:30:51 <TrueBrain> I wonder if there is another way to make a plot to give it more meaning .. hmm
18:37:38 <frosch123> so we need a quota of 1GB per user?
18:37:50 <TrueBrain> another way to rate limit it, yes
18:37:55 <TrueBrain> go the Docker Hub way :P
18:38:09 <TrueBrain> the problem is, we don't really understand what causes this behaviour
18:38:29 <frosch123> well, if a single user downloads it all multiple times
18:38:35 <frosch123> i would expect some docker thing :)
18:38:42 <frosch123> automated setup of server
18:38:52 <frosch123> trash the container, download everything
18:38:53 <TrueBrain> what I can check, just to validate if it is the console part, how many people download, say, 200+ files within an hour
18:41:29 <frosch123> i think that is a unused library
18:41:41 <TrueBrain> 351 times in 1 month
18:41:41 <frosch123> noone should download it :p
18:42:06 <frosch123> i would claim that those 351 people downloaded all ai libraries
18:42:16 <TrueBrain> and I doubt they clicked that all
18:42:24 <TrueBrain> so I guess they did it via the console command? Are there any other ways?
18:42:38 <frosch123> i do not doubt people clikcing all
18:43:15 <frosch123> a good rts player gets that done in < 2 mintues
18:43:33 <TrueBrain> 487 people downloaded 200 things in an hour
18:44:07 <TrueBrain> so, how much GB are they worth :D
18:44:39 <TrueBrain> that is what the graph show too
18:45:01 <TrueBrain> so I think on one hand we have abase/zBase, we know that is ~50% of traffic
18:45:09 <TrueBrain> on the other hand, we have people downloading everything
18:45:14 <TrueBrain> (including abase/zBase)
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18:46:17 <frosch123> my client says 3.35 GB is everything
18:46:38 <TrueBrain> extracted, I assume?
18:46:38 <frosch123> so your top10 cleaned everything at least once
18:47:01 <TrueBrain> but the top 1 user downloaded 8GB
18:47:05 <frosch123> ottd says "total download size"
18:47:15 <TrueBrain> how do you select everything? :P
18:47:46 <frosch123> i just switched my .openttd symlink
18:47:54 <LordAro> * TrueBrain puts his banhammer away
18:47:57 <frosch123> which i always do when i want to test stuff without newgrf scan times
18:49:09 <TrueBrain> meh ... still not satisfied with the explanations given for the traffic pattern
18:49:32 <TrueBrain> but okay .. I think with the PR I merged, we reduce the top 10%
18:49:50 <frosch123> maybe people are more likely to select all ais, since they are at the top
18:49:56 <frosch123> but give up somewhere down the line
18:50:46 <TrueBrain> guess we will have to wait and see a bit what this does once 1.11 hits
18:50:58 <TrueBrain> and I agree, a command that downloads all GRFs based on a savegame would be very useful :)
18:50:58 <frosch123> so, now we have two numbers 351 and 286 for people who supposedly downloaded everything :)
18:51:10 <TrueBrain> well, your theory works there
18:51:14 <TrueBrain> 70 people saw their error
18:51:51 <TrueBrain> how many base graphics do we have, hmm
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18:53:06 <frosch123> opengfx, nightgfx, abase, zbase
18:53:17 <TrueBrain> wait, 29 is wrong indeed .. I am doing this wrong, one moment :)
18:54:09 <TrueBrain> 381 people downloaded all 4
18:54:53 <frosch123> i would have expected that to be a newbie thing
18:54:58 <frosch123> download everything "base"
18:55:03 <TrueBrain> euh, no, that number means something else
18:55:03 <frosch123> it must be required
18:55:43 <TrueBrain> hmm ... I want to know how many downloaded them all, so I need to track filenames .. one sec :D
18:55:52 <TrueBrain> (I checked how many downloaded 4 base-graphics within 1 hour)
18:55:59 <TrueBrain> which is 381 people :)
18:57:43 <TrueBrain> 182 people downloaded all ai-libraries at least once :D
18:59:11 <TrueBrain> people are just weird
19:01:19 <TrueBrain> so many ways to visualise this :D
19:01:42 <TrueBrain> 474 people downloaded all 4 base graphics in that month
19:01:45 <TrueBrain> so that are not that many
19:03:02 <TrueBrain> 8850 people downloaded 1, 1275 2, 804 3, and 474 4
19:03:16 <TrueBrain> (I assume most get their OpenGFX via another channel btw)
19:03:27 <TrueBrain> linux has openttd-opengfx, and windows has NSIS
19:03:32 <TrueBrain> they are both not in these values
19:04:25 <TrueBrain> biggest server was 200 GRFs you said, right?
19:04:33 <frosch123> how many are opengfx? no idea which version nsis downloads, so maybe there is immediately the option to download an upgrade?
19:04:44 <TrueBrain> NSIS does latest these days
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19:05:14 <frosch123> TrueBrain: ottd has 64, but i can't remember whether jgr also increased the limit in multiplayer somehow
19:05:40 <TrueBrain> 8500 people OpenGFX, 4000 zBase,2500 abase, and 2000 NightGFX
19:05:51 <LordAro> why are lost trains able to do 90 degree turns?
19:06:02 <TrueBrain> the things lost trains are able to do ..... :P
19:06:06 <LordAro> some weird artefact left over from the OPF?
19:06:14 <frosch123> LordAro: because the 90 degree thing is a pathfinder thing
19:06:31 <frosch123> and lost trains do not use the pathfinder result
19:06:42 <LordAro> true, but they still pick a direction
19:06:47 <TrueBrain> okay, all the numbers keep giving back the ~250 value, for people who downloaded just everything
19:06:47 <frosch123> and noone bothered to patch that for 90 degree as well
19:06:55 <TrueBrain> @calc 250 / 40000 * 100
19:07:13 <TrueBrain> we will see with 1.11 how/if the traffic changes :)
19:07:16 <frosch123> LordAro: i am sure there is some coop junction that relies on that :p
19:09:44 <TrueBrain> NO DONT BREAK MY DESIGN I WILL HAUNT YOU!
19:11:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8361: Fix: useless warning with -snull and no BaseSounds available https://git.io/JIWab
19:12:07 <TrueBrain> there glx, a proper fix :)
19:12:17 <TrueBrain> I don't like "HasOutput"
19:13:15 <TrueBrain> I am open for suggestions :)
19:18:15 <TrueBrain> in October 2020, we had at least 9 clients who connected to BaNaNaS with a subversion build :D
19:18:51 <TrueBrain> otherwise, OpenTTD 1.0.0 was the oldest client
19:19:10 <TrueBrain> some people really haven't upgraded in 10 years :D
19:19:26 <frosch123> yet they visit bananas :)
19:19:37 <TrueBrain> amazing that it still works, if you think about it :)
19:19:54 <frosch123> well, maybe 0.7 is broken :)
19:20:15 <frosch123> but clearly the issue is that there is no "openttd" in the content download
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19:28:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8355: Add: support for emscripten (play-OpenTTD-in-the-browser) https://git.io/JIn4l
19:28:29 <TrueBrain> it now downloads OpenGFX from openttd.org :D
19:28:34 <TrueBrain> I had to configure CORS for that, but okay :P
19:29:19 <TrueBrain> so ... lets build artifacts, see how that works out :D
19:43:49 <TrueBrain> 7 minutes to build; faster than Windows :P
19:44:14 <TrueBrain> could speed it up a bit if we would cache a folder, but that means I need to look into caching stuff :D
19:52:20 <TrueBrain> meh; artifacts are published as zips ... that is not useful :(
19:52:30 <TrueBrain> (due to browsers limits, you cannot start it from file:// )
19:53:11 <frosch123> yeah, only ie6 supports that :p
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20:03:34 <TrueBrain> so ... where am I going to publish a PR preview ...
20:03:57 <frosch123> cdn.staging.openttd.org
20:04:30 <TrueBrain> that is not what staging is for, but we could store it in our AWS, sure
20:04:38 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I can apply S3 retention policy
20:04:47 <TrueBrain> that means that after, say, 30 days, it gets removed automatically
20:05:03 <frosch123> don't misconfigure that for bananas :)
20:05:13 <TrueBrain> it will be his own S3 bucket :P
20:05:43 <frosch123> what retention policy do you plan for cloud saves?
20:06:27 <TrueBrain> storing files is very cheap btw
20:06:53 <TrueBrain> $0.0245 per GB in hot storage
20:07:03 <milek7> how you did come up with 1eur/month figure? it seems very pessimistic
20:07:06 <TrueBrain> $0.0135 per GB for allowing cold storage
20:07:22 <frosch123> i would expect you can get 1TB/month from new savegames
20:08:03 <TrueBrain> milek7: it is more than 10 dollarcents, and likely less than 1 dollar
20:08:06 <TrueBrain> so I rounded up to 1 dollar
20:08:26 <TrueBrain> but it fully depends on how users are going to use it
20:08:32 <TrueBrain> which makes it rather difficult to estimate :)
20:08:47 <TrueBrain> but for 1 euro a month I am pretty sure we can deliver
20:10:16 <TrueBrain> but we can do the math, I guess
20:10:23 <TrueBrain> how many minutes does an OpenTTD month takes frosch123 ?
20:10:58 <TrueBrain> or an OpenTTD day :P
20:11:30 <frosch123> that's seconds if you wonder
20:11:37 <TrueBrain> so 10 minutes, lets say
20:11:44 <TrueBrain> that gives 6 autosaves an hour
20:11:49 <TrueBrain> savegame is, what, 1 MB?
20:11:49 <frosch123> i hope you do not want cloud-autosaves
20:11:57 <frosch123> TrueBrain: 100mb for 4kx4k or so :p
20:12:06 <TrueBrain> an average .. so okay, 10MB?
20:12:13 <TrueBrain> fine .. how long does an average user play?
20:12:17 <frosch123> no idea, we have no stats on that
20:12:19 <TrueBrain> 4 hours a day, 3 days a week?
20:12:22 <frosch123> i think way too many people play on 4kx4k
20:12:38 <TrueBrain> @calc 10 * 6 * 4 * 3 * 4
20:12:49 <TrueBrain> that is 30 dollarcent
20:13:40 <TrueBrain> 10 MB * 6 autosaves an hour * 4 hours * 3 days a week * 4 weeks a month, in case you were wondering
20:13:53 <TrueBrain> and of course there is some loading, but compared to the saves, that is not worth talking about
20:14:08 <TrueBrain> well, ingress might be free
20:14:11 <TrueBrain> that would be cheating :D
20:14:19 <TrueBrain> yeah, only egress is paid
20:16:11 <TrueBrain> okay, I somewhat forgot about that
20:17:29 <TrueBrain> milek7: yeah, in that case 1 euro/month would be overestimating it
20:17:39 <TrueBrain> so lets pick worst-case, 100MB per save
20:17:44 <frosch123> michi_cc: thanks for updating the wiki :)
20:18:01 <TrueBrain> in an evening you load it 3 times, because of crashes; 3 days a week, 4 weeks a month
20:18:05 <TrueBrain> @calc 100 * 3 * 3 * 4
20:18:12 <TrueBrain> 4GB, so 40 eurocent
20:18:58 <TrueBrain> either way, doing it for free, that is where I see the problem happening .. if we have 100 active users, sure, we can handle that
20:19:08 <TrueBrain> that is a bit my issue, honestly :)
20:20:09 <frosch123> i don't think there are many users playing it 12 months per year. so no subscriptions either :)
20:20:43 <TrueBrain> if, and again, IF, we would ask people money, I would suggest using a credit system
20:20:49 <TrueBrain> if you didn't play a month, it didn't cost you any credit
20:21:13 <TrueBrain> just no bullshit keep it simple it is only to pay service cost, not to make us rich, concept
20:22:20 <TrueBrain> but honestly, tier it .. N save-slots for maps up to 256x256 for free
20:22:27 <TrueBrain> credits for bigger stuff, like a 4kx4k save-slot :P
20:22:38 <frosch123> truecoin, the currency transferred via github repo :p
20:22:54 <TrueBrain> you know that these jokes tend to become reality, right? :P
20:23:16 <TrueBrain> but okay, in order to do anything like cloudsaves, we have a long way to go
20:23:17 <frosch123> storing transactions in git is just too stupid :p
20:23:21 <milek7> I thought it is possible to save on autosaves by unpacking and storing deltas between uncompressed data
20:23:22 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD would need to learn https for one
20:23:31 <milek7> but in testing it doesn't help almost anything ;P
20:23:38 <TrueBrain> milek7: in the way OpenTTD's savegame work ... I think that is not possible
20:23:41 <TrueBrain> but I would love to be wrong :)
20:23:43 <frosch123> but yes, i think all the companies searching for block chain experts reinterpret it as signing
20:24:05 <TrueBrain> milek7: if you would do it based on chunks
20:24:07 <TrueBrain> you might have more luck
20:24:16 <TrueBrain> as the map-chunks stays equal in size
20:24:30 <TrueBrain> and most are fairly stable
20:24:44 <TrueBrain> owh yes, play without trees :P
20:24:50 <TrueBrain> but that is only 1 of the map arrays
20:24:55 <TrueBrain> the others should still be static-ish
20:24:55 <frosch123> ottd savegames are mostly random data
20:25:15 <TrueBrain> it is more close to a memory dump than anything else :)
20:25:19 <frosch123> tiles change every 2.5 seconds, vehicles move every 0.3 seconds
20:25:42 <TrueBrain> but I guess if you take a 4kx4k, things like _m1 and _m2 might be super stable
20:25:48 <TrueBrain> do we still have _m1 and _m2?
20:25:52 <TrueBrain> or is that now C++ magic?
20:26:15 <frosch123> i don't think that changed in 10 years :)
20:26:22 <TrueBrain> at least a constant
20:26:47 <milek7> maybe pulling all that fields from bitpacked maparray into individual "bitplanes" would help somewhat
20:27:12 <TrueBrain> that already exists ;)
20:27:42 <frosch123> TrueBrain: if you want to get banned from github, you can turn ottd into a github client, and store saves in user's own gists
20:27:43 <TrueBrain> thereis a MAP1 chunk, a MAP2 chunk, etc
20:27:59 <TrueBrain> it is not fully bitplanes, but per byte, give or take
20:28:07 <TrueBrain> frosch123: hahahahaha :D
20:28:14 <TrueBrain> owh, that would be so nasty :D
20:28:21 <TrueBrain> and no, we are not going to do that :P
20:28:41 <TrueBrain> I was considering pushing these HTML previews to a github repo, so they could be opened from a github page
20:28:48 <TrueBrain> but you convinced me using our own S3 bucket is better :P
20:28:54 <TrueBrain> just means I need to set that up, and I don't want to
20:30:30 <TrueBrain> but okay, what we need for cloud saves, is: HTTPS from the Client, some form of centralized authentication, and after that, cloud saves
20:30:54 <TrueBrain> as authentication we could use GitHub, but not sure that is wise
20:31:04 <TrueBrain> for editing etc, I am all for GitHub
20:31:09 <TrueBrain> but for playing a game, it feels weird
20:31:14 <frosch123> https came up multiple times, but we still have no certstore
20:31:26 <TrueBrain> HTTPS is really difficult to solve cross-platform
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20:32:09 <frosch123> well, unless we use our own certs
20:33:14 <TrueBrain> that too is not easy; how are we going to organize it, so that in 10 years old clients still work?
20:33:15 <frosch123> one cert per release, expire after 2 years
20:33:33 <frosch123> no usage of cloud saves or bananas with 2 year old clients :p
20:33:44 <TrueBrain> well, that is one way of doing that :P
20:34:16 <TrueBrain> personally, we could just publish root CAs on a HTTP connection
20:34:35 <TrueBrain> I mean .... if someone hacks or intercepts that place
20:34:39 <TrueBrain> that feels ..... unlikely
20:34:49 <frosch123> well, why use https in the first place then?
20:35:07 <milek7> why not use os keystore? whatever is provided by libcurl/winhttp/other implementation?
20:35:20 <TrueBrain> because in a few months hosting http is going to be nearly impossible frosch123
20:35:36 <TrueBrain> milek7: OS stores are difficult to trust, as in, they might miss critical root CAs
20:35:44 <TrueBrain> you see browsers shipping their own set
20:35:51 <TrueBrain> it is a total mess / nightmare :P
20:36:02 <dwfreed> OS stores don't miss *critical* root CAs
20:36:07 <dwfreed> milek7: it is going to
20:36:17 <frosch123> milek7: i would push for boost::beast/c++23 anyway :p
20:36:18 <TrueBrain> was about to say :P Chrome announced that recently :)
20:36:59 <frosch123> only boost that becomes standard
20:37:14 <TrueBrain> anyway, I don't mind libcurl personally, but we would still need to pick an SSL backend too
20:37:23 <TrueBrain> we have a few to select from these days :)
20:37:26 <TrueBrain> (which is a good thing)
20:37:30 <frosch123> but i heard we did not make it to c++14 yet, so waiting for c++23 is probably no solution either
20:38:08 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I cannot trigger a manual workflow on a Pull Request easily, that is a shame ...
20:38:25 <TrueBrain> it acts like it is running on master :P
20:38:44 <milek7> I think using os keystore is fine
20:38:55 <milek7> like.. what current os won't include aws certs?
20:39:13 <TrueBrain> sadly, our opinion on it doesn't matter; what the implementation will do, matters :)
20:39:41 <TrueBrain> and all I can tell you, is that it is not a 1-2-3 actions you do in a single evening
20:39:47 <TrueBrain> it will take someone a lot more effort :D
20:41:25 <milek7> I don't get the problem really
20:41:46 <TrueBrain> well, give it a try! :)
20:41:54 <TrueBrain> don't know if you ever implemented any SSL in any application
20:42:37 <TrueBrain> you also find out how shitty people are in upgrading their ca-certificates bundle ...
20:42:53 <TrueBrain> which root CA expired a few months ago? Ugh, that was painful
20:43:24 <andythenorth> saves are often huge
20:43:37 <andythenorth> I used to have to clear out my openttd regularly, it would get to 1GB or so
20:43:55 <TrueBrain> that would be 2 dollarcent per month
20:44:26 <Borg> andythenorth: you mean your openttd dir?
20:44:38 <andythenorth> no, the savegame
20:44:57 <TrueBrain> 4kx4k map with autosaves on?
20:44:59 <andythenorth> currently 230MB for 900 items
20:45:09 <andythenorth> are savegames compressed?
20:45:16 * andythenorth wonders if there was a mac bug historically
20:45:30 <andythenorth> the dir used to grow fast, now not so much
20:46:11 <andythenorth> most of mine are 200-300KB
20:47:02 <Borg> if that would be an network game. you had to transfer 1GB?
20:54:36 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8355: Add: support for emscripten (play-OpenTTD-in-the-browser) https://git.io/JIn4l
20:55:45 <TrueBrain> okay, publishing to S3 is something for another day, but the CI at least works \o/ :D
20:55:49 <TrueBrain> owh, I forgot to copy something, oops
20:56:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8355: Add: support for emscripten (play-OpenTTD-in-the-browser) https://git.io/JIn4l
20:58:54 <TrueBrain> I love how you can execute stuff inside a docker really easily with GitHub Actions
21:00:48 <frosch123> hmm... i noticed a bug in nml, wrote a test case, fixed the other bugs it surfaces, ... but it actually does not pass the code i wanted to test originally
21:01:07 <TrueBrain> following the white rabbit there are you? :D
21:01:22 <andythenorth> ask the nml maintainers for help
21:01:41 <andythenorth> ha ha can we make dorpsgek kick people for saying 'maintainer'?
21:02:08 <TrueBrain> .... we would never see you again :(
21:02:15 <frosch123> i would like to ask andy. but if i disclose nml magic to andy, he may use it in some grf
21:03:13 <andythenorth> just wipe my brain afterwards
21:03:27 <andythenorth> problems problems everywhere
21:03:30 <andythenorth> but solutions are trivial
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21:11:06 <TrueBrain> milek7: I still don't know how to easily drag in external dependencies with CMake .. I wanted to avoid creating our own Docker, but I don't see how ..
21:11:18 <TrueBrain> goes for libtimidity but also for lzma
21:11:24 <TrueBrain> maybe you have some clever ideas?
21:17:26 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I was planning to do that if you write @preview in a comment of a PR, a GitHub Actions checks if you are part of the core-developers team (what we did in "team" repo), and if so triggers a preview build. If that build is done, uploads to S3, and sets a preview label as well as the deployment for that PR (that means you can click the URL from the PR). Now if you make a new push to a PR, GitHub Actions kicks in again, checks if it alr
21:17:26 <TrueBrain> did a build, and updates if needed
21:17:37 <TrueBrain> the downside I see, is that it runs GitHub Actions on every push/comment
21:18:25 <frosch123> can you trigger it when a label is added?
21:18:44 <frosch123> add label "build it", remove when done or similar?
21:18:51 <TrueBrain> even who did it, so I can validate that you are allowed to :P And remove the label if you are not :P
21:19:03 <TrueBrain> and we set less labels, so also less GitHub Actions spam
21:19:18 <TrueBrain> I could also learn it our bot, to do all this
21:19:23 <TrueBrain> so there is no need for a GitHub Actions
21:19:34 <TrueBrain> but .... doing it in a workflow is easier
21:19:39 <TrueBrain> (as it is in the repo, instead of somewhere else)
21:20:08 <TrueBrain> okay, add label "Build Preview", GHA checks if you are in the right team, kicks off the build, when done, removes that label and add "Preview", or what-ever
21:20:19 <TrueBrain> on push, check if "Preview" label exists, build again
21:20:29 <TrueBrain> if anyone not DorpsGek adds "Preview" label, remove it
21:20:40 <TrueBrain> should be simple enough; we have the code :D
21:20:44 <TrueBrain> and we removed SkyNet from it
21:20:52 <frosch123> or keep the "preview" label and rebuild on every push? (possibly with some delay)
21:21:02 <TrueBrain> yes, that is what I mean
21:21:13 <TrueBrain> just if you would add the "Preview" label, it would remove it. Only DorpsGek can add that label
21:21:32 <frosch123> anyway, i would like to avoid using comments for for preview builds
21:21:32 <TrueBrain> just to avoid people cheating the system, adding a "Preview" label themself, and pushing a new version :P
21:21:42 <TrueBrain> I like your label idea :)
21:21:47 <TrueBrain> comments is pretty common on GitHub, but it is noisy
21:21:56 <frosch123> multiple builds per pr are weird, and outdated comments with old builds are as well
21:22:11 <TrueBrain> yeah, there will just be 1 URL for a PR
21:22:17 <TrueBrain> it updates that URL if there is a new push
21:22:27 <TrueBrain> and the deployments API is lovely for that
21:22:31 <TrueBrain> that will be very sparkly :D
21:22:51 <frosch123> so, dev add label "preview", bot edits PR text to add url?
21:23:09 <TrueBrain> no need to edit text :D Let me find an example ..
21:24:31 <TrueBrain> random google example
21:24:39 <TrueBrain> it will show that at the bottom of a PR
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21:24:58 <milek7> TrueBrain: it might be possible to contribute these into emscripten ports
21:25:09 <TrueBrain> milek7: that would be even better tbfh
21:25:15 <TrueBrain> I was surprised by the lack of ports, honestly
21:25:27 <TrueBrain> like either they made it really hard to add one, or nobody cares enough, or something :D
21:25:42 <TrueBrain> milek7: would you look into that? Pretty please with sugar on top? :D
21:26:04 <TrueBrain> seriously, that would be awesome
21:26:53 <glx> deployments thing looks nice
21:27:06 <TrueBrain> it means no comments, no editing of text, nothing :D
21:27:32 <TrueBrain> yeah, reading some more, I can do: you add "Preview" label, GHA builds it, updates deployments API
21:27:48 <TrueBrain> on Push, GHA checks if label still exists and if deployment was done before, rebuilds, and updates
21:27:57 <TrueBrain> can all be done from GHA I think, no Python needed :D
21:33:10 <frosch123> what? no python? but we like python!
21:35:04 <TrueBrain> this is going to be beautiful :D
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23:30:16 <glx> nice github somehow picked the wrong yml
23:32:19 <glx> oops TrueBrain pushed to the wrong place
23:37:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8355: Add: support for emscripten (play-OpenTTD-in-the-browser) https://git.io/JIBuD
23:42:49 <TrueBrain> I .. aborted that push. No clue why it allowed me to start with.. happens if you need to push to your own local master ...
23:42:58 <TrueBrain> Feel free to revert it glx
23:43:25 <TrueBrain> Or force push over it, honestly
23:43:39 <glx> not sure we enabled force push
23:44:36 <TrueBrain> Well, at least it was uptodate, so that helps :p
23:45:07 <TrueBrain> I am off to get some sleep, but if you can fix it that will be appreciated :)
23:47:04 <TrueBrain> Owh, right, DorpsGek can push for eints, that is why all admins can push too
23:47:33 <TrueBrain> You can disable force push for a bit in the branch protection if you like
23:48:03 <TrueBrain> (Disable the protection, so you can force push, that is)
23:49:09 <TrueBrain> The 6th commit is legit btw .. the other 5 are not :D
23:49:19 <TrueBrain> Tnx glx :) and good night!
23:54:45 <glx> we're lucky only one PR was touched
continue to next day ⏵
