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00:01:33  <andythenorth> also bed

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08:28:06  <andythenorth> yo

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09:41:38  <TrueBrain> so, what was next on my list of todo .. hmm

09:44:57  <andythenorth> MMORG

09:45:06  <andythenorth> read forums

09:45:08  <andythenorth> join reddit

09:45:22  <TrueBrain> I rather be productive :)

09:45:50  <andythenorth> you point out my errors? :P

09:48:42  <_dp_> What's the best way to count number of wagons with certain cargo type in the consist?

09:48:52  <_dp_> basically like count_veh_id but for refits

10:01:31  <TrueBrain> hmm ... MasterServer has the same complexity issue as BaNaNaS: I have an OpenTTD-client serving server, an updater, an API, and a web frontend

10:02:01  <TrueBrain> the first three need some centralized database, so they can read the data

10:02:11  <TrueBrain> but this time a GitHub repository won't work :P Information is too dynamic :)

10:03:48  <andythenorth> _dp_ use the var for it?

10:03:55  <andythenorth> maybe there isn't one

10:04:27  <_dp_> andythenorth, there is var to query each wagon but that doesn't sound very efficient

10:04:47  <andythenorth> write your own vars :P https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/master/src/templates/procedures_alternative_var_41.pynml

10:05:04  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what was a good (free) tool to crawl a website for dead links?

10:05:23  <andythenorth> _dp_ that checks up to 127 vehicles forward, reading a var

10:05:37  <andythenorth> TrueBrain I use Integrity on the mac, that doesn't help _you_ though

10:05:45  <TrueBrain> nope :(

10:06:13  <andythenorth> sorry

10:06:31  <TrueBrain> no worries :)

10:06:57  <andythenorth> there are loads of free ones given by SEO companies

10:09:50  <TrueBrain> w3c has a website that does it for you too, funny

10:10:33  <andythenorth> we run this on a jenkins job, super useful (paid though) https://www.totalvalidator.com/

10:10:55  <andythenorth> I also use this as well https://ahrefs.com/site-audit

10:11:16  <andythenorth> we have 4-5 validators running, creates good overlap

10:11:46  <andythenorth> all validators have some odd choices, spurious warnings etc

10:13:16  <TrueBrain> well, mostly, I am about to index FlySpray, and make a static copy out of it. So a validator afterwards telling me how I did would be nice :D

10:14:40  <andythenorth> we pay for them, time (and quality) versus money, no brainer

10:14:51  <andythenorth> I would say same for openttd, but eh, I'm not budget person :)

10:15:05  <andythenorth> I think we should spend money on things that make contributing more fun

10:15:12  <TrueBrain> the price is not worth the running only once :)

10:15:21  <andythenorth> +1

10:16:22  <_dp_> andythenorth, that looks like it just queries every wagon

10:16:28  <andythenorth> it does

10:16:38  <andythenorth> * every wagon in the chain

10:16:45  <_dp_> also I need it in properties callback so no var 61

10:16:46  <andythenorth> every time graphics runs

10:16:53  <andythenorth> ouch

10:16:57  <andythenorth> well

10:17:03  <andythenorth> server side patch then :)

10:17:43  <_dp_> well, if I could I'd gladly do it

10:17:52  <_dp_> but how do I pass value from server to newgrf?

10:17:54  <LordArtoo> TrueBrain: grepping the server logs for 404 works well :p

10:18:00  *** LordArtoo is now known as LordAro

10:18:00  <andythenorth> fork the newgrf spec

10:18:14  <_dp_> that's client patch :P

10:18:17  <TrueBrain> LordArtoo: does require someone accessing all the files first ;)

10:18:26  <LordAro> wget --spider

10:19:00  <LordAro> -r --spider, even

10:19:01  <TrueBrain> LordAro: for sure, but .. I was more hoping for a simpler solution

10:20:18  <_dp_> to bad bitmask_vehicle_info ore just OR'ed, can't quite do a good counter like that :(

10:24:28  <LordAro> TrueBrain: can't get a lot simpler than a single command, what sort of simplicity are you looking for?

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10:25:10  <TrueBrain> LordAro: well, something with a hammer and everything is a nail :)

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10:25:28  <TrueBrain> but the docker image of https://github.com/linkchecker/linkchecker seems to do the job :)

10:27:11  <TrueBrain> funny, we have broken links because we don't have a testing version up :) (on the main webpage)

10:30:53  <TrueBrain> okay, so what to index from FlySpray ..

10:31:02  <TrueBrain> the listings etc is not that useful .. so I guess only the issues themself

10:34:05  <andythenorth> we're archiving history?

10:34:17  * andythenorth assumes we don't want to just delete FS?

10:38:06  <TrueBrain> exactly

10:38:17  <TrueBrain> lot of old GitHub issues still link to FS

10:38:52  <TrueBrain> small effort to make it static and put it on an S3 bucket :)

10:40:26  <_dp_> what int type does nml use, int32?

10:56:22  <_dp_> looks like I broke nmlc xD https://i.imgur.com/RvPDKxt.png

10:56:50  <andythenorth> congrats :)

10:56:52  <andythenorth> elite

10:58:25  <LordAro> well done

10:59:02  <TrueBrain> YOU WIN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Congratulations :)

11:03:12  <_dp_> looks like having 256 cases in one switch was one case too much xD

11:04:20  <andythenorth> 255 :)

11:04:39  <andythenorth> you can chain for more cases :P

11:05:04  <_dp_> I just combined some into ranges

11:05:11  <andythenorth> cheating :P

11:05:14  <andythenorth> far too sensible

11:05:29  <andythenorth> nml points are only awarded for doing things you shouldn't

11:05:43  <_dp_> do switches use lookup btw?

11:05:59  <andythenorth> [shrug emoji]

11:06:28  <andythenorth> it's not leet unless you're running 50k checks of variables, per vehicle, on every graphics paint

11:06:31  <_dp_> I think I get enough points as it is :p https://pastebin.com/CH6uJANF

11:06:47  <andythenorth> switch_doombringer_speed is quite nice

11:07:06  <andythenorth> this is a nice try, but far too readable

11:07:06  <andythenorth> [STORE_TEMP(LOAD_TEMP(0) * 50 + 200, 0)]

11:08:19  <_dp_> yeah, I didn't quite get to use python to turn this into unreadable mess yet :p

11:09:02  <andythenorth> this one is better https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/blob/master/src/templates/produce_primary.pynml#L12

11:09:14  <andythenorth> I didn't even do that, it was possibly frosch :)

11:11:45  <_dp_> now, an interesting question is if that switch is faster than just adding 8 bits...

11:11:49  <_dp_> (hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 0) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 1) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 2) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 3) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 4) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 5) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 6) + hasbit(bitmask_consist_info, 7)) * 50 + 200

11:13:36  <_dp_> it int was 64 bit I could just do (x * 0x200040008001 & 0x111111111111111) % 0xf

11:13:40  <_dp_> but I guess it isn't?

11:15:19  <andythenorth> 'faster' is pretty unknown afaik

11:15:57  <andythenorth> somebody with a detailed interest in profiling could be really fun to have around :)

11:15:57  <TrueBrain> so many dead links op flyspray .. so sad ...

11:17:16  <_dp_> well, I spent some time writing that damn switch so it better be faster xD

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11:19:34  <_dp_> oh, it can handle 256 cases, it just was 257 with default

11:19:37  <_dp_> perfection xD

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11:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: that's in the "i hope you get paid by the line" category :p

11:27:56  <TrueBrain> by Matrix

11:27:57  <TrueBrain> bye

11:29:30  <_dp_> yeah... and now I'm spending even more time to figure out if switches are more effecient :/

11:29:41  <andythenorth> user more procedures :P

11:29:53  <andythenorth> how are you testing if the switches are efficient? :)

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11:30:11  <_dp_> I'm just reading the code...

11:30:21  <_dp_> though I did find some newgrf profiler there...

11:31:58  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i mean something like https://thedailywtf.com/articles/To_the_Hexth_Degree :)

11:32:29  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause is using a generator cheating?

11:32:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes

11:32:45  <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect

11:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i knew about the rats in vietnam thing

11:42:43  <TrueBrain> we have a bug-ticket that points to nasatv ... now I am curious :)

11:42:59  <TrueBrain> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/441

11:42:59  <TrueBrain> lol

11:44:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds... fun :p

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11:51:33  <TrueBrain> they are bbbaaccccckkkk

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11:55:40  <TrueBrain> 640 outside links on the bug-tracker; most f them no longer work :P

11:58:02  <andythenorth> my validators tend to ruin my Mondays

11:58:07  <andythenorth> due to the rate of link-rot

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12:08:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you could make the president-approach and "test less"

12:09:05  <TrueBrain> we are not all idiots Eddi|zuHause

12:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> are we really? p

12:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> :p

12:14:41  <TrueBrain> w00p, I have a static version of a task, including all the css, images, javascript, and possibly uploaded files

12:14:43  <TrueBrain> sweet :)

12:16:34  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno why youtube would suggest me a video about the cobra effect...

12:16:59  <andythenorth> omg, it's almost like the internet tracks you

12:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> ... particularly, one i watched probably like 5 years ago

12:25:21  <_dp_> hm... if I disable all anti-tracking stuff will it make youtube to suggest something actually interesting?

12:29:13  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i do all my stuff in private browsing mode, and only watch the stuff i'm subscribed to in regular browsing mode. seems to help it along, but i wouldn't call it "good"

12:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> means the only method of tracking they should have is IP and maybe browser version/os

12:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i also tried wiping the youtube history. that turned out to be a bad idea

12:34:41  <_dp_> I don't even care that much, just using adblock and vpn yet youtube seems quite clueless

12:34:48  <_dp_> mb I just watched it whole already :/

12:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> ... because that means now all the suggestions are filled with videos i watched just prior to the wipe, because they're related to videos i just watched

12:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> and that's even though i cliked to keep the watched video list

12:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> turns out that's not what youtube uses to determine what videos you watched

12:37:37  <Timberwolf> YouTube for me has a similar problem to Spotify, in that I watch something relatively niche and it immediately tries to direct me to something popular with a weakly connected theme, rather than something strongly connected thematically.

12:38:47  <Timberwolf> e.g. if I watch someone tearing down and rebuilding the engine on an old Volvo, I am far more likely to get "watch this influencer drive a Lamborghini Aventador!" than "watch this guy rebuild a Cortina gearbox in his shed"

12:39:39  <Eddi|zuHause> well, youtube had, at least for a while, a problem that this popularity rating was based on "engagement", and that meant "controversial", so you weren't noticing that the videos you watched were getting more extremistic

12:39:50  <Timberwolf> Oh yes, that.

12:40:49  <Timberwolf> I have a feeling that's still there, either that or the UI is bad because I like watching very uncontroversial videos and it's a constant pain to find them.

12:42:14  <Timberwolf> "You probably don't want to watch videos about arcane technical details of Space Quest that you actually subscribed to, so we'll hide them and give you 'why Call of Duty sucks' instead"

12:55:58  <andythenorth> I actually prefer YT learning about me

12:56:21  <andythenorth> then again it tries to surprise me out of my bubbgle

12:56:28  <andythenorth> bubbgle?  bubble

12:56:50  <andythenorth> so now and then it shows me some low-grade racist hysteria, or paranoid conspiracy stuff

12:56:59  <andythenorth> or scams

13:00:18  <TrueBrain> how is that outside your bubble?

13:00:18  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I actually prefer YT learning about me <-- maybe, but it doesn't seem to be learning the correct things

13:01:00  <andythenorth> TrueBrain it's my fault for watching a load of freeman-on-the-land videos 5 years ago :D

13:01:05  <Eddi|zuHause> like "if i watched episode 1 through 8 of a series, don't show me episode 10. show me episode 9"

13:01:06  <andythenorth> YT ruined

13:12:17  <TrueBrain> I heavily underestimated how much data is on flyspray ...

13:12:23  <TrueBrain> over 2GB of data already, and I am not done yet :P

13:12:45  <LordAro> somewhat surprising

13:12:57  <LordAro> images, i guess?

13:12:57  <TrueBrain> lot of crashdumps

13:13:01  <TrueBrain> and even bmps :P

13:13:02  <LordAro> ah yes

13:13:39  <TrueBrain> biggest task so far is only 30MB

13:14:32  <TrueBrain> many savegames and crashdumps in that task

13:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> no giant screenshots? :p

13:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> a giant screenshot of a 256^2 map should be around 25MB

13:17:25  <TrueBrain> none so far; only 7MB savegames :P

13:17:30  <TrueBrain> possibly the upload limit is 10MB btw :)

13:23:55  <TrueBrain> owh, no, an upload of 15MB .. another savegame :P

13:25:56  <TrueBrain> total of 4.2GB of data :) Lolz

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18:01:41  <_dp_> great, I just made a server that crashes clients :/

18:02:06  <_dp_> day of silly achievements

18:03:16  <TrueBrain>  Is it that kind of day :(

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18:16:52  <Timberwolf> Something weird: normally when I generate my set (using `nml -c`) the output GRF is ~28MB. However, if I re-render all the sprites the first couple of compiles the output will be 21MB, after which NML will regenerate every file in .nmlcache and it's back to 28MB.

18:17:29  <Timberwolf> Nothing seems obviously broken with the 21MB version, I wonder what it's doing :/

18:21:41  <andythenorth> oof I feel bad about this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1235327#p1235327

18:21:47  <andythenorth> I should really do something to ban the translators

18:22:23  <andythenorth> it's just wasted work

18:22:47  <andythenorth> Timberwolf that does sound....odd

18:25:00  <_dp_> andythenorth, why not just release another update for firs 3 with it?

18:28:06  <_dp_> ERROR: Game Load Failed?(undefined string)

18:28:12  <_dp_> very helpful :p

18:48:34  <TrueBrain> it is not sure it failed? That is awesome :)

18:49:39  <_dp_> and I can't even find where this message comes from

18:49:49  <_dp_> I grepped everything I could thing of

18:50:36  <TrueBrain> :(

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18:54:57  <nielsm> going to look at a way to have "dynamic" translations for newgrfs

18:55:10  <nielsm> again

18:55:20  <TrueBrain> :D That sounds like a borat :)

18:55:33  <nielsm> TrueBrain you'd have to support it in bananas!

18:55:43  <TrueBrain> I have to do absolutely nothing! :D

18:55:55  <TrueBrain> (so happy with my time off :P)

18:56:01  <nielsm> like newgrfs being packed with additional translation files that can update without the id or compat of the newgrf updating at all

18:56:26  <_dp_> newgrf could use more "dynamic" in general

18:56:38  <TrueBrain> that could be pretty difficult .. but integrate it with eints, and you do have a nice platform :)

18:56:47  * _dp_ just butchered NUTS for sprites because it's not possible to just change properties in other grf

18:57:07  <_dp_> or, rather, callbacks, not properties

19:01:17  <_dp_> also, great idea of switching everything to wasm probably covers that as well

19:01:44  <_dp_> make dynamic translations and stuff with wasm -> put newgrf runner under wasm -> profit :p

19:02:04  <nielsm> I guess searching the newgrf for action 4, 8 and 14, and then giving replacements for the strings in them, by sprite id and string index

19:02:17  <nielsm> and something to make sure the "patching" matches the exact grf file

19:03:07  <TrueBrain> I was surprised to see WASM could be implemented with and without JIT :P

19:04:05  <nielsm> WASM is more or less a serialised parse tree of a structured language

19:04:18  <TrueBrain> bit like the clang IR

19:04:23  <TrueBrain> was how I read it at least

19:05:19  <TrueBrain> "Failed to create resource. Cannot request more certificates in this account. Contact Customer Service for details."

19:05:21  <TrueBrain> well, that is new

19:05:40  <TrueBrain> we have 20

19:05:41  <TrueBrain> lol

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19:14:57  <TrueBrain> one of the downsides of AWS .. there are random limits with very non-descriptive errors .. well, requested if they could increase that limit .. what-ever limit that is :D

19:19:32  <_dp_> cloudy errors :p

19:28:34  <TrueBrain> well, what is a bit idiotic in this case, that certificates are region-based .. I raised the limit in one, but I now hit the limit in another .. and the location of certificates is sometimes forced by the AWS service to be here or there :P

19:28:42  <TrueBrain> owh well .. support tickets go quick enough most of the time

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19:31:32  <SpComb> AWS ACM limits?

19:32:17  <TrueBrain> most likely

19:32:24  <TrueBrain> at least, my educated guess :P

19:32:50  <SpComb> default quota for number of ACM certificates is 1000, but may be lower for new accounts

19:33:16  <TrueBrain> yup ..

19:33:20  <TrueBrain> which doesn't help for the confusion

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19:33:25  <TrueBrain> but we had this in one region, which they fixed

19:33:30  <TrueBrain> and now I think I have it in another region

19:33:37  <TrueBrain> I was hoping they would just change it all to "default"

19:33:49  <TrueBrain> but in the world of AWS, "default" rarely is "default"

19:33:56  <TrueBrain> as calling OpenTTD's account "new" is stretching it :)

19:34:40  <openttdguest> TrueBrain: For https://github.com/OpenTTD/bananas-api/issues/29 (Send download URL via API), is this for a new web route?

19:35:51  <TrueBrain> doubtful; sounds more appropriate to augment an existing endpoint

19:36:30  <openttdguest> TrueBrain: The urls are not stored in the database. They are available upon request from the web api?

19:37:03  <TrueBrain> the ticket is about adding it to the API, so no (but I am sure I did not understand the question, as that was an open door)

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19:44:43  <andythenorth> so Warcraft 1 has a thing like station walking

19:45:02  <andythenorth> buildings can only build near other buildings

19:45:17  <andythenorth> but you can start construction of 1, then another, then cancel the 1st

19:45:34  <nielsm> heh

19:45:37  <andythenorth> cheap way to increase defensive perimeter

19:45:53  <andythenorth> it's not a bad game

19:46:04  <TrueBrain> lol; why are you playing W1?

19:46:06  <nielsm> like chains of sandbags in C&C1 or silos in RA

19:46:29  <TrueBrain> the sandbags trick, I remember that :)

19:48:02  <andythenorth> 'my liege'

19:48:09  <andythenorth> I just really like W1

19:48:14  <andythenorth> the sound design is good

19:48:17  <andythenorth> the colour palette is good

19:48:38  <andythenorth> the unit pathfinding is crap, you have to work around it too much

19:48:41  <andythenorth> and the unit control is crap

19:50:44  <andythenorth> anyway, I think we should make Train Painter

19:50:48  <andythenorth> inside ottd

19:51:06  <TrueBrain> go for it :)

19:51:11  <andythenorth> probably as a view on a group of trains

19:51:21  <andythenorth> TrueBrain ok I volunteer to be chief project manager!

19:51:28  <andythenorth> and ideation expert

19:51:31  <andythenorth> and motivation coach

19:51:32  <TrueBrain> now recruit some minions to do the work!

19:51:40  <andythenorth> I will also do the ISO 27001 for it

19:51:54  <andythenorth> and I will make sure it is cookie compliant

19:52:56  <TrueBrain> I am happy www.openttd.org doesn't do cookies; easy to be compliant :)

19:53:09  <TrueBrain> well, possibly AWS adds a cookie; dunno tbh :P

19:53:38  <andythenorth> around about June this year

19:53:47  <andythenorth> I got to write "No cookies are used on this website"

19:53:50  <andythenorth> for company site

19:53:51  <andythenorth> was good

19:54:11  <TrueBrain> ah, yes, AWS adds sticky cookies, for the LB

19:54:40  <andythenorth> essential

19:54:46  <TrueBrain> yup

19:55:15  <andythenorth> ok so the cookies part is done

19:55:22  <andythenorth> now we just need train painting part

19:55:45  <andythenorth> company colour is stored per vehicle?

19:56:13  <andythenorth> let me put it another way, sometimes individual vehicles show wrong CC, after reload_newgrfs

19:56:19  <andythenorth> so I assume it's cached per vehicle

19:56:28  * andythenorth didn't read any like...code

19:57:10  <andythenorth> I call this method 'learning the spec by observing bug behaviour in unsupported edge cases'

19:59:49  <TrueBrain> strictly seen I can disable the cookies, as it really is only to keep connections sticky

20:00:07  <TrueBrain> downside of disabling them, is that people can hit different versions when it is rolling over to a new version :P

20:00:14  <TrueBrain> so yeah, essential cookie :)

20:01:01  <TrueBrain> and I also observed AWS is doing something with the certificate manager .. I have not seen the code, I did observe the edge cases  :D

20:03:34  <andythenorth> hmm I read rationalwiki for a bit earlier today

20:03:44  <andythenorth> and now YT is showing me conspiracy ads

20:03:46  <openttdguest> TrueBrain: Would this work?: /package/{content_type}/{unique_id}/download_url

20:03:53  <andythenorth> CONSPIRACY!!!

20:04:05  <TrueBrain> openttdguest: no; no new endpoint. It is a piece of metadata, so it should be added to an existing

20:04:42  <TrueBrain> if you look at the API specs (see swaggerhub link), that would make no sense, to make a new endpoint

20:06:18  <openttdguest> TrueBrain: I see. Have '/package/{content_type}/{unique_id}' add the url to the returned dict?

20:07:19  <frosch123> openttdguest: did you read the last comment in that issue?

20:08:09  <TrueBrain> openttdguest: if I would be to make a guess, but I have not really looked into this yet, it should be part of https://app.swaggerhub.com/apis-docs/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-content-api/1.0.0#/Version

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20:12:52  <openttdguest> frosch123: I read it now. I wrote the code to get the download url already.

20:27:43  <TrueBrain> curious how exactly, but I guess we will see with a PR :)

20:42:44  <TrueBrain> hmm .. MS Flight Sim already leaked? How does that work with the highres textures? :P

20:44:42  <openttdguest> TrueBrain: Well I might have to make is async

20:45:06  <TrueBrain> now I am a bit scared of what you did :) Maybe show your current progress to us?

20:56:17  <andythenorth> frosch123 Train Painter? o_O

21:00:42  <andythenorth> :o

21:00:44  * andythenorth has an idea

21:01:22  <frosch123> new dlc for tw?

21:01:55  <andythenorth> sort of

21:02:18  <andythenorth> web client for repainting trains

21:02:24  <andythenorth> with a connection to your running game

21:02:30  <andythenorth> OpenTTD + Train Manager

21:03:21  <andythenorth> what could go wrong?

21:04:23  <_dp_> lol, that's sort of thing I would do

21:04:30  <_dp_> if I even cared about repainting them :p

21:04:54  <_dp_> you can make tw in newgrf though I just realized

21:05:03  <_dp_> in fact I almost did that today with nuts sprites

21:05:25  <andythenorth> yes

21:05:29  <andythenorth> maybe we should

21:05:36  <andythenorth> it's been a big success on the web

21:05:36  <TrueBrain>  andythenorth: generate grfs on the fly? :D

21:05:52  <andythenorth> web success => move it to OpenTTD

21:06:09  <frosch123> were can i put down bets that the 3rd add-on format for ottd will be html+js ?

21:07:01  <_dp_> I'd take html

21:07:08  <_dp_> especially with flexbox ;)

21:07:37  <andythenorth> <div><train id><switch><var>

21:08:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: do trains support <i> or <em>?

21:08:18  <andythenorth> well

21:08:36  <andythenorth> when somebody has won the semantic war, we'll be able to tell you

21:08:40  <andythenorth> if anybody is left alive

21:08:52  <andythenorth> italics are now supposed to be back in <i> again

21:08:59  <andythenorth> very orwellian

21:09:29  <frosch123> maybe bananas can enforce strict xhtml

21:09:35  <andythenorth> html5 is a master class in retcon

21:09:42  <andythenorth> <i> is now idiomatic

21:09:48  <andythenorth> "Historically, these have been presented using italicized type, which is the original source of the <i> naming of this element."

21:10:01  <andythenorth> <em> should now only be used for actual emphasis

21:10:06  <andythenorth> the time I spent converting those :(

21:10:11  <andythenorth> to please some total fuckwits

21:10:20  <andythenorth> could have been spent making train whack

21:10:59  <andythenorth> oh from the <i> page on MDN

21:11:03  <andythenorth> "pp><i class="latin">Musa</i> is one of two or three genera in the family <i class="latin">Musaceae</i>; it includes bananas and plantains.</p>"

21:11:06  <andythenorth> how topical :)

21:12:12  <frosch123> did rubidium write that?

21:12:33  <andythenorth> 'probably'

21:12:36  <andythenorth> 'not'

21:13:21  <_dp_> crazy idea of the day: make a program that takes train grf and makes TW out of it

21:15:10  <andythenorth> yes, but what software can read a newgrf? o_O

21:15:18  <frosch123> imagine the drama if there was a tool that would create train screenshots from any grf with braking vans in the wrong position

21:15:26  <andythenorth> that would be rad

21:15:56  <andythenorth> I am considering using brakevans to modify train properties

21:16:23  <frosch123> V wanted to make a trainset, where the wagons define the properties of the train

21:16:33  <andythenorth> I thought he did in NUTS? :P

21:16:38  <andythenorth> oh that was emotional trains

21:16:47  <frosch123> like how many power, how fast, what loading speed, ...

21:16:52  <andythenorth> I think I can do it super realistic

21:17:07  <TrueBrain> What is tw?

21:17:10  <_dp_> frosch123, ehm, that's exactly what I'm doing right now xD

21:17:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: no, not like nuts. more like: code your own trainset within ottd

21:17:15  <_dp_> even with NUTS sprites...

21:17:28  <andythenorth> JUST USE INVISIBLE VEHICLES

21:17:44  <andythenorth> each vehicle has 1 bit of information available, due to flip

21:17:50  <frosch123> _dp_: V explained it to me with f modules :p

21:17:53  <andythenorth> assuming that cargo subtypes is something only silly people would use

21:18:13  <_dp_> frosch123, https://i.imgur.com/dVU7Y3e.png

21:18:15  <andythenorth> so 8 vehicles is quite a lot of information potential

21:18:22  <andythenorth> and there can be many types of vehicle

21:18:26  <andythenorth> and many possible orders

21:18:28  <andythenorth> and flip

21:18:38  <andythenorth> orders / combinations /s

21:18:39  <frosch123> _dp_: you added a "speed" cargo? :p

21:18:53  <_dp_> frosch123, yep, speed and power! xD

21:20:08  * andythenorth considers how this might work

21:20:27  <andythenorth> I miss some sort of purpose for it :)

21:20:32  <andythenorth> other than lolz

21:20:43  <andythenorth> so engines are just a 1hp shell?

21:21:34  <_dp_> well, I'm making a train racing minigame so it all has a perfect purpose :p

21:22:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: you pick 1 of 100 engine for the graphics, 1 of 10 wagon for the speed, 1 of 5 wagons for loading speed, and then a generic wagon to define the length of the train

21:22:24  <frosch123> the grf figures out the rest of the graphics

21:23:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: think of it like a fighting game. you need to figure out the correct wagon combos, to get the nice sprites

21:23:58  <_dp_> puzzle, until you figure out the correct order it won't leave the depot :p

21:24:18  <frosch123> maybe you should only have 6 wagons: L, R, U, D, A, B

21:24:27  <andythenorth> are some combinations just horrible to look at?

21:24:38  <frosch123> pick any subset to build a train

21:24:48  <andythenorth> L Punch!

21:24:52  <andythenorth> R Kick!

21:24:57  <frosch123> most will result in dull graphics, but some in nice and powerful ones

21:25:24  <andythenorth> can we combine it with some of numerology woo?

21:25:27  <andythenorth> hidden encodes

21:25:33  <andythenorth> illuminati shit?

21:25:50  <frosch123> yes, encoding the number A0 will make it invisible

21:26:04  <frosch123> but still occupy space

21:26:15  <andythenorth> woo!

21:26:18  <andythenorth> conspiracy

21:26:53  <frosch123> also, is V sober again?

21:27:59  <andythenorth> did I miss something?

21:28:06  <_dp_> hidden code to change day length!

21:28:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: friday was official factorio release

21:28:31  <_dp_> though considering how ineffecient all those chain calculations are it may even be real...

21:31:59  * andythenorth designs Train Painter

21:32:21  <andythenorth> I think we need a paint brush, and a paint bucket

21:32:31  <andythenorth> paint brush paints vehicles one at a time with CC

21:32:38  <andythenorth> paint bucket fills right from vehicle you click on

21:32:53  <andythenorth> also super paint bucket, paints all trains in group

21:33:37  <andythenorth> the history of proposed vehicle modifying stuff is a history of menu driven design

21:33:46  <andythenorth> but we don't build the train tracks with a menu

21:35:26  <andythenorth> OpenTTD 2, including Train Painter!

21:35:37  <andythenorth> all my ideas for vehicle variants were menu drien

21:35:42  <andythenorth> drien?  Driven

21:35:52  <andythenorth> cargo subtypes is menu driven

21:35:57  <frosch123> andythenorth: can you also drag&drop different engines into the train?

21:35:59  <andythenorth> groups and autoreplace menu driven

21:36:04  <andythenorth> frosch123 :o

21:36:07  <andythenorth> that's Train Painter 2

21:36:13  <andythenorth> or even Train Painter ^ 2

21:36:34  <andythenorth> new wheels!

21:36:37  <andythenorth> a spoiler!

21:36:39  <andythenorth> body kit

21:36:41  <andythenorth> vinyls

21:37:37  <frosch123> better steering

21:37:51  <andythenorth> better speakers

21:38:05  <andythenorth> trams also need steering

21:38:21  <frosch123> oh boy. speakers are the scariest thing in new trains

21:38:57  <frosch123> when you are used to inaudible announcements, and suddenly it is as clear as your smartphone

21:39:10  * andythenorth hasn't been outside for a while

21:39:23  <andythenorth> and outside encompasses 'inside' when it refers to trains

21:40:08  <andythenorth> I think all this is great!

21:40:17  <andythenorth> but I was just envisaging applying company colour per vehicle :P

21:40:20  <andythenorth> and maybe

21:40:41  <andythenorth> allowing alternative newgrf defined sprites per vehicle, using maybe a format for specifying alternative spritesets

21:40:52  <andythenorth> no vars, no newgrf action 2 chain for it

21:41:07  <andythenorth> just openttd understands that a vehicle has n spriteset choices, and player picks 1

21:41:29  <andythenorth> like 'skins' :P

21:46:20  <frosch123> do you also want to hand-pick the cargo that is loaded at stations? drag the caterpillar on the 3rd flatbed car. put the containers on the others, in your favorite order

21:48:22  <andythenorth> passengers in the coaches

21:48:51  <andythenorth> frosch123 also a dice tool

21:48:59  <andythenorth> so you can just drag it over trains for random

21:49:06  <frosch123> good idea. every passenger has a bio, and you can either put singles next to each other. or political enemies

21:49:15  <andythenorth> love stories!

21:49:27  <andythenorth> this would significantly improve passenger cdist

21:50:09  <TrueBrain> Policital enemies.. love stories .. riiigggghhhhttt

21:50:40  <frosch123> you can also seat js and haskell programmers next to each other

21:51:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, my point is. i don't consider ottd a game where you design individual trains

21:51:42  <andythenorth> oh :o

21:51:46  <andythenorth> you hide it so well :)

21:51:50  <frosch123> :p

21:52:16  <andythenorth> I should have stopped at company colour :P

21:52:43  <frosch123> [21:39] * andythenorth hasn't been outside for a while <- maybe that's where it went wrong?

21:52:51  <andythenorth> I would agree

21:52:58  <andythenorth> but I think it went wrong before then

21:56:34  <andythenorth> most of my trains actually look like https://grf.farm/images/such_detailed_trains.png

21:56:58  <andythenorth> designing very individual trains is not a goal :P

21:57:04  <andythenorth> I can draw them if I want that

22:00:00  <andythenorth> :o maybe there's a var to read the player-defined company colours?

22:01:54  <b_jonas> andythenorth: I think someone said that there isn't because the player-defined colors can differ per client and they don't want behavior that has to be in sync to depend on that

22:01:55  * andythenorth looks in 80+

22:02:11  *** openttdguest has quit IRC

22:02:28  <andythenorth> oh that is a good point b_jonas

22:02:30  <frosch123> b_jonas: in this case, the var exists, but the var may lie

22:02:44  <andythenorth> I know there's a var for vehicle colour, I'm using it :)

22:02:56  <frosch123> the var will always report the company colors, even is you configured "only show company colours for own vehicles"

22:02:56  <andythenorth> I wondered if there was a var, for e.g. player setting for wagons etc

22:03:17  <andythenorth> I could just remap the group-defined 1cc and 2cc back to player global setting for wagons

22:03:22  <b_jonas> frosch123: so it uses the colors that the owner of the train set? because then it's useful

22:03:34  <frosch123> b_jonas: yes, it does exactly that

22:03:47  <b_jonas> that's good

22:03:59  <andythenorth> var 018 company's colour scheme

22:04:02  <andythenorth> doesn't look useful

22:04:08  <andythenorth> (offset 018, not var)

22:04:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: you can only read the final color for a vehicle, not the rules that defined it

22:05:13  <andythenorth> maybe I make my own rules, and ban certain colours

22:05:16  <andythenorth> this could be on a parameter

22:05:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe you should draw vehicles in color "company_color + 1"

22:05:51  <frosch123> and wait when player report bugs that the dropdowns show the wrong color

22:06:04  <frosch123> then make a hotfix release which changes it into "+2"

22:06:42  <andythenorth> ha ha

22:06:59  <andythenorth> https://grf.farm/images/such_detailed_trains_2.png group livery white + blue

22:07:01  <frosch123> ofc you could also just swap green and red

22:07:02  <andythenorth> wagons are white

22:07:05  <frosch123> and tell people they are blind

22:07:06  <andythenorth> and they carry salt :P

22:07:15  <andythenorth> frosch123 that is probably a WCAG violation

22:07:26  <andythenorth> we connect to bananas, so we're a web app

22:07:31  <andythenorth> so we're in scope for WCAG 2.1

22:07:36  <andythenorth> oof

22:07:46  * andythenorth might be creatively lying about that one

22:07:59  <frosch123> do they have rules about <i> and <em>?

22:08:08  <andythenorth> somewhat

22:08:19  <andythenorth> it will be a valid implementation technique

22:08:25  <andythenorth> for conveying meaning semantically

22:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a WCAG?

22:09:29  <b_jonas> what is WCAG?

22:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> World Congress of Abstract Geometry?

22:10:00  * andythenorth clearly lives in a different world of compliance

22:10:01  <andythenorth> swap?

22:10:41  <andythenorth> also train 48, so good https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=213465

22:11:50  <b_jonas> I don't see how that would work, because (1) I know I'm not color blind at all, I had a shitton of tests for that while I was a child during normal optometrist examinations, (2) I can take a screenshot and ask the computer to tell me what color it is

22:12:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm not sure what you think we should be seeing there

22:13:17  <andythenorth> a bit train?

22:13:20  <andythenorth> big train *

22:14:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and we've never seen a big train before?

22:14:58  <andythenorth> this one goes to 11

22:24:13  <Wolf01> At least does it work in game or only in depot?

22:35:05  <Wolf01> You should do even the soviet 4-14-4 and forbid even 45° turns, only straight rails :P

22:37:07  <andythenorth> vehicle instigated crashes?

22:37:14  <andythenorth> 'this train has derailed'

22:39:02  <Wolf01> 25% probability of derailment when taking turns

22:39:29  <Wolf01> Make it randomly stop broken down on curves XD

22:39:32  <b_jonas> Wolf01: that should depend on speed, so eg. you can take turns more safely close to a depot where the trains slows down anyway

22:40:11  <andythenorth> invert the tilt factor property :P

22:40:31  <Wolf01> Except that locomotive destroyed the tracks wven at low speed

22:40:37  <b_jonas> also add attacks by indians as disasters if you build on their territory (depending on the year you're in) and animal-related disasters like sheep grazing on the trian

22:40:38  <Wolf01> *even

22:40:41  <andythenorth> TRAIN_FLAG_TILT

22:40:42  <b_jonas> sheep grazing on the tracks

22:40:47  <b_jonas> also collapsing bridges

22:40:47  <frosch123> xussr set has broad gauge, doesn't it?

22:41:02  <andythenorth> there's some kind of debate about that

22:41:08  <andythenorth> railtype labels or something

22:41:22  * andythenorth should draw a train

22:41:27  <andythenorth> I drew one already today

22:41:49  <b_jonas> as for less than 45° turns, we'd need a different system of building tracks, such as the one from Locomotion and Railroad tycoon, for that.

22:42:04  <b_jonas> no sorry

22:42:11  <b_jonas> I mean Locomotion or Roller-coaster tycoon

22:42:28  <b_jonas> the latter even has tilted tracks

22:44:54  <_dp_> merge openttd with openrct! :p

22:46:14  <_dp_> open world automata

22:47:08  <andythenorth> do a factorio clone

22:51:55  <Wolf01> Integrate F into OTTD, so you can create the industries you want without FIRS

22:52:41  * _dp_ never really understood factorio

22:53:09  <Wolf01> I played 20 hours in the last 3 days :P

22:54:18  * _dp_ played 3 hours in last 20 years :p

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