IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-08-02
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10:31:23 <andythenorth> company colour per vehicle? o_O
10:31:26 <andythenorth> how many bits is that?
10:58:19 * andythenorth wonders what happens if -ve HP is set for an engine
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11:15:11 <frosch123> they call themself "UK Youth Arts Magazine"
11:17:26 <andythenorth> sort of tempting, but I can't be arsed :)
11:17:37 <andythenorth> I am desperately avoiding all obligations these days :)
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12:01:10 <TrueBrain> you can also sponsor an online radio station if you like!
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12:19:14 * andythenorth painting trains :P
12:20:15 <frosch123> the interviewer studied music. you could convice them to switch to a different field of arts
12:21:36 <andythenorth> they should interview nielsm about midi players
12:39:15 <andythenorth> for multiple cases I thought of
12:39:27 <andythenorth> it wouldn't solve Eddi's problem
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12:42:05 <frosch123> how to we make eddi do that interview?
12:42:13 <andythenorth> eddi on a podcast?
12:42:40 <frosch123> he can talk about his internet 80% of the time
12:48:57 <andythenorth> how many kittens will I kill if I ship a GS depending on a FIRS version :P
12:49:19 * andythenorth just hates pressing 'newgame' until the right random cargos are chosen in all the current GS
12:56:59 <TrueBrain> funny .... my 2GB WSL2 sometimes hit the memory limit while compiling rust applications
12:57:31 <andythenorth> there is a fly here, I have been trying to kill it since yesterday
12:57:37 <andythenorth> the buzzing triggers me a little bit
12:58:22 <TrueBrain> ah, the rust-language-server is consuming 1.5GB .. like it is nothing
12:59:27 <TrueBrain> that moment you search for it, and it turns out to be a bug from 2018 ..
13:12:22 <andythenorth> possibly I am a bug from 1978
13:12:45 <andythenorth> committed in 1977 probably, but didn't manifest in production until 1978
13:13:06 <TrueBrain> that is one disgusting way to think about child birth :P
13:14:17 <andythenorth> seems quite a natural model to me :P
13:14:40 <andythenorth> I have been involved in child birth, more than once even
13:15:03 <TrueBrain> you consider that bugs too? :P
13:15:12 <andythenorth> too early to tell
13:15:20 <andythenorth> I can tell you that the maintainers have made mistakes
13:26:28 <andythenorth> straw poll, how many times will you cursor up in shell to avoid retyping a command? :P
13:34:04 <frosch123> problem is that cursor-up works different in bash and in windows shell
13:36:42 <andythenorth> occasionally I do git reset --hard by accident due to my laziness for typing :)
13:36:49 <andythenorth> those are sad moments :D
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13:49:00 <andythenorth> so do we have any square glyph?
13:49:16 <andythenorth> I might put company colour hints into buy menu extra text
13:56:05 <andythenorth> we have a little train maybe
13:57:28 <andythenorth> oh company colours don't map 1:1 string code colours :D nvm
13:57:33 <frosch123> textcolours do not match company colours
13:57:35 <andythenorth> idea probably looked bad anyway
14:33:05 <TrueBrain> Rust language is funny, but a lot of things are completely different from most other languages ..
14:33:10 <TrueBrain> when are we going to port OpenTTD to Rust? :P
14:35:25 <andythenorth> after we've ported it to WASM?
14:36:32 <_dp_> not it, first embed wasm, port all mods to rust, then the rest of the game :p
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14:39:49 <TrueBrain> massif is a nice tool, never used it before, but .. that gives nice insight in memory usage of an application
14:41:29 <andythenorth> 'Rust has been the "most loved programming language" in the Stack Overflow Developer Survey every year since 2016'
14:43:29 <TrueBrain> "love" might not be the right word ...
14:43:35 <TrueBrain> love&hate, might be the better description :P
14:43:45 <_dp_> it's an awesome language but a mindfuck to learn
14:44:25 <TrueBrain> their way of dealing with pointers is .. a-typical
14:44:32 <TrueBrain> and everyone describing it, fails kinda bad :P
14:46:08 <_dp_> but it fixes memory issues at compilation instead of debugging :p
14:46:39 <TrueBrain> it is very often completely unclear if your memory is being copied or not
14:47:32 <_dp_> in rust it rarely copies anything iirc
14:47:51 <TrueBrain> for example, I have a Box<Node>, where Node is a struct. I want to put it on a list, and I want to examine it .. it is such a mindfuck that if you put it on the list, you can no longer examine it, unless you put a reference on the list
14:48:04 <TrueBrain> in C it is much more obvious when you put the pointer on a list, or the object
14:49:01 <TrueBrain> especially as the error is something about "lifetime" :P (it takes a bit of time to understand what the hell it is talking about)
14:49:52 <TrueBrain> and "match" is just REALLY weird to see in a language :)
14:49:57 <TrueBrain> like, seriously, it is weird
14:50:02 <TrueBrain> useful, nevertheless, but weird
14:58:28 <_dp_> lifetime ends where you put free()
14:58:55 <_dp_> and if you don't, well, those gigs of ram ain't there for nothing :p
15:02:17 <TrueBrain> and lifetime in Rust is a bit weird at first
15:02:28 <TrueBrain> which .. feels ... weird if you come from C
15:02:45 <TrueBrain> which also gives a ton of choices
15:03:21 <TrueBrain> take the cli argument I have .. do I give it to the subfunction, or do I keep ownership .. it changes when the argument is free'd .. which is a weird way of thinking about it
15:03:41 <TrueBrain> (if I keep ownership, it is free'd after the subfunction; if I give it to the subfunction, it is free'd after last us in the subfunction)
15:06:24 <_dp_> well, my rust knowledge stops about where I more or less figured how lifetimes work but have no idea how to design a program like that xD
15:06:35 <_dp_> there is like a book on how to make linked list in rust :/
15:06:49 <TrueBrain> I am figuring it out as I go ... pretty sure the code sucks balls :P
15:08:16 <_dp_> at some point I felt like you end up making a storage anyway and now instead of pointers you have indexes which are pretty much the same thing anyway
15:08:29 <_dp_> though openttd does that in c++ as well :p
15:08:59 <TrueBrain> the main thing I currently like about Rust, is that you cannot cheat between types
15:09:30 <TrueBrain> most things are very explicit, or obvious to the reader
15:09:54 <TrueBrain> I also noticed you very quickly learn to avoid using Option<>, as it sucks balls :P
15:09:58 <_dp_> sometimes I fell like they're too explicit
15:10:11 <_dp_> end up with a lot of usize-u64 conversions and such
15:10:15 <TrueBrain> I miss a few pythonic thingies, like default kwargs :P
15:10:31 <TrueBrain> ugh, yeah, the conversions are everywhere if you are not careful
15:10:52 <TrueBrain> Ok(self.read_u8(address)? as u16 + ((self.read_u8(address + 1)? as u16) << 8))
15:10:57 <TrueBrain> one of my favorites so far
15:11:19 <_dp_> also half of the libs use f32, other half f64, whichever you chose you're stuck with billion conversions
15:11:25 <TrueBrain> and questionmarks EVERYWHERE :P
15:12:09 <frosch123> does porting ottd gui to qt move it closer to rust or to wasm, or more far away?
15:12:30 <TrueBrain> Rust has binding with ... EVERYTHING
15:12:58 <TrueBrain> but I believe gtk is the "most common" for rust
15:13:23 <_dp_> because qt is c++ and nothing binds well with that :p
15:14:18 <TrueBrain> I am very curious about the Rust bindings with Python .. from what I read, you can execute Python code pretty decent from Rust, so I will venture in that domain :P
15:14:44 <_dp_> why would you want to though?
15:15:06 <_dp_> other way around makes more sense to me tbh
15:15:13 <_dp_> I think I even tried that at some point
15:15:32 <TrueBrain> it is because of the project I am working on, that it make sense .. normally I would fully agree with you
15:15:37 <TrueBrain> for now I have this syntax:
15:15:43 <TrueBrain> that is not .. really .. human readable
15:15:58 <TrueBrain> so I think I will convert it to Python, making it more readable :)
15:16:35 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: FLHerne was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 5 days, 22 hours, 26 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <FLHerne> I'm not sure that's true
15:16:45 <TrueBrain> famous last words? :D
15:17:28 <andythenorth> "I'm just going to press this button"
15:17:52 <frosch123> "the door bell rang"
15:18:42 <TrueBrain> I was refering to the "I'm not sure that's true"
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16:29:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #8288: Fix: sprite preview in sprite aligner is too small with scaled UI https://git.io/JJwtg
16:31:59 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there a game like "don't press this button"?
16:37:44 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ you playing Horse?
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17:03:26 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: global thermonuclear war. the only winning move is not to play.
17:03:50 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: doesn't really work for this...
17:05:47 <andythenorth> did we do buttons for GS yet?
17:05:58 <andythenorth> Nuke mode seems like it would be something GS *can* do
17:06:20 <_dp_> exept it won't destroy anything :P
17:09:35 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth yes
17:10:08 <supermop_Home_> but i am distracted try to get a suburban DMU line set up so i only have one RFD train going
17:10:28 <andythenorth> want a new version? It's probably savegame safe
17:10:33 <andythenorth> few of the sprites are finished
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17:55:50 <andythenorth> 'deliver cargo x to every town on the map' as a GS goal?
17:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds boring...
18:03:30 <andythenorth> might be fun once
18:03:44 <andythenorth> I doubt it has replayability
18:04:39 <_dp_> may work for subgoal like engine unlock or smth
18:05:03 <andythenorth> I think it tends towards an RV network
18:05:20 <Eddi|zuHause> there's really 3 basic ways for a GS to operate: 1) provide short-term goals for quick games, 2) provide a progression of short-term goals for long games, or 3) provide some kind of narrative thread to play along
18:05:35 <_dp_> yeah, probably, just road it all across and broadcast rvs...
18:08:45 <Eddi|zuHause> like, you could start with only primary industries on a map, and give the player some transportation goals to spawn a secondary industry
18:10:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and when that secondary industry is sufficiently supplied, it spawns another industry further down the chain
18:10:26 <andythenorth> 3) is not possible currently
18:10:49 <andythenorth> you missed the straightforward long-play cargo goals
18:11:00 <andythenorth> 4) provide linear goals that take a long time
18:11:30 <b_jonas> I just like the sandbox aspect, I don't want goals, except maybe easy goals for a tutorial
18:11:42 <b_jonas> I want to build networks where I choose the goals
18:12:02 * andythenorth wonders what order of complexity calculating industry chains is from scratch
18:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i disagree
18:12:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: both on your judgement of 3) and your proposed 4)
18:13:05 <andythenorth> 4) is empirical not proposed
18:13:18 <andythenorth> Silicon Valley and NoCarGoal both meet 4)
18:13:26 <andythenorth> how much have you played GS eddi :)
18:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that's just an overextended case of 1)
18:13:59 <andythenorth> well if it's just semantics about long vs short
18:14:14 <andythenorth> but a silicon valley game does not qualify as 'short' IMHO
18:14:27 <andythenorth> and it has a back story, but there's no narrative development
18:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there's "short stories" that are 300 pages long... doesn't make them "long stories"
18:14:47 <andythenorth> ok, so SV has a single narrative step
18:15:00 <andythenorth> there's no stages, no progression, no new plot developments
18:15:17 <andythenorth> ok I accept those terms
18:15:51 <Eddi|zuHause> 3) is probably better suited for scenarios... like this idea of US westward expansion
18:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the transport fever scenarios fall in this category
18:18:25 <andythenorth> those I think are out of scope
18:18:31 <andythenorth> as GS is blind to the game content
18:18:47 <andythenorth> it's very hard to do a story with anonymous characters
18:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> tropico works a bit along those lines
18:19:20 <andythenorth> I think stuff that can be done is things like 'You have one city, grow it by 5k for a new train'
18:19:33 <andythenorth> I suspect this explains why nearly all GS are city builders
18:19:45 <andythenorth> GS is blind to the actual economy, and newgrf can't control cities
18:19:58 <andythenorth> so each finds a niche?
18:20:14 <_dp_> I though of doing server that starts with "you have a horse and 1000$ debt"
18:20:20 <andythenorth> nice opening line
18:20:42 <andythenorth> 'There is a sad-looking dwarf here. On the ground is a spoon'
18:20:54 <b_jonas> a horse and 1000$ of debt can work as the opening for a game, but I'm not sure it works for openttd
18:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you've bean eaten by a grue
18:21:20 <andythenorth> 'The spoon is an illusion. You fall into another world."
18:21:52 <andythenorth> "Time progressed while you weren't looking. The grue is now a bleen."
18:22:07 <_dp_> it doesn't work in openttd because min for max loan is 200k $ :p
18:22:24 <_dp_> so you suddenly have a horse, two jets and 200k loan :p
18:23:10 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: solution to that is to make a horse cost 100k :p
18:23:30 <andythenorth> "The Horse ate $99k"
18:23:44 <andythenorth> "Do you 1) shoot the Horse 2) eat the remaining $1k?"
18:24:00 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, then jet cost will overflow money :p
18:24:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably a missing feature for GS: control the inflation factor(s)
18:24:15 <andythenorth> "Fix the Game GS"
18:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> also, fractional currency display factors
18:24:46 <andythenorth> GS can fix that? :o
18:25:02 <andythenorth> GS could model currency devaluations :P
18:25:14 <andythenorth> and newgrf could specify which currency a train is priced in
18:25:24 <andythenorth> you could choose to import from NARS or USSR set
18:25:25 <_dp_> for starters it would be nice to count fractional money
18:25:30 <andythenorth> depending on exchange rates
18:25:37 <_dp_> instead of getting paiment +- 10% :p
18:25:44 <andythenorth> also OpenTTD models train choices all wrong for Europe
18:25:54 <andythenorth> they're modelled as commercial or efficiency choices
18:26:04 <andythenorth> instead of choices about which factories are where voters live
18:26:22 <andythenorth> the political economy in OpenTTD is frankly weak :P
18:27:20 <b_jonas> newgrf can already control a lot of the prices, fi not all
18:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is something that you can base your narrative around :)
18:29:41 <andythenorth> I do have ideas for narrative
18:29:52 <andythenorth> but they are tied to specific FIRS
18:30:21 * andythenorth wonders if we can calculate industry chains
18:30:28 <andythenorth> with some rules for limit of a 'chain'
18:30:29 <b_jonas> for anrrative you could do something as simple as transporting stuff around until a secondary industry can manufacture rails to get better railway tracks, and the tertiary industry can manufacture vehicles to get better trains and trucks
18:31:10 <andythenorth> it's just not currently viable
18:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the only reasonable way you can bunlde FIRS with a specific GS is if you make a scenario. (but FIRS should still work fine without the GS)
18:32:03 <andythenorth> what if we could genericise the narrative?
18:32:19 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: well sure, this is an optional thing, not something you should play with every FIRS game
18:33:05 <andythenorth> I need to identify 'keystone' industries
18:33:19 <andythenorth> so that GS can offer to build part of a new chain for you
18:33:29 <andythenorth> or demand service for it
18:33:53 <andythenorth> "There are coal and iron ore mines at Fuddlebridge, we are building a steel mill nearby"
18:34:21 <andythenorth> If the newgrf is known, the GS author can just script that.
18:34:29 <Eddi|zuHause> a thing that openttd is missing is that mines tend to be in poorly accessible areas, and industries need to be in well-accessible areas
18:34:33 <andythenorth> If the newgrf isn't known, maybe we can do it by inspection?
18:34:58 <andythenorth> Can we model the cargo graph?
18:35:10 <andythenorth> I'd suggest a keystone industry might have a lot of edges leading into or out of it
18:35:20 <andythenorth> whereas something like fish -> fishing harbour really doesn't
18:35:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that idea fails for the "old style" sets which have max 3 input lines
18:35:41 <andythenorth> I'd be out of my depth building these kind of structures
18:35:42 <_dp_> I just realized ... horse is a off-road rv
18:35:46 <b_jonas> not that this only works in FIRS, you could have better vehicles in vanilla temperate once you transport enough steel to factories
18:35:58 <andythenorth> _dp_ NRT, do 'trails' or 'packhorse routes'
18:36:09 <_dp_> andythenorth, those are still roads
18:36:22 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: "off road" would be something like ships, just on land
18:36:35 <andythenorth> frosch123 once patched hovercraft to travel on any tile
18:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: that seems troublesome to implement on multiple levels
18:36:45 <andythenorth> but it crashed when it encountered a house
18:36:55 <_dp_> I actually though of using horse as ingame character and it would be megastupid to have player laying trains ahead of himself xD
18:37:24 <andythenorth> the Port and Blast Furnace might be considered keystone industries
18:37:35 <andythenorth> GS building either on an empty map (or empty region) would develop game
18:38:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dunno, i'd say the glass works and metal workshop industries would be better candidates
18:38:43 <Eddi|zuHause> as they're further down the chains
18:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but identifying "chains" is troublesome if you have loops
18:39:02 <andythenorth> but then who builds the steel mill?
18:40:01 <andythenorth> the problem I have genericising is that I already have strong opinions on which industries are keystone
18:40:12 <andythenorth> for obvious reason of having designed the chains :P
18:40:49 <andythenorth> chemicals work / chemical plant /s
18:40:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i think a "generic" GS will have enough problems telling apart primary from secondary industries
18:41:07 <andythenorth> doesn't it just count inputs?
18:41:17 <andythenorth> primaries have no input, except in newgrf
18:41:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the "except" part is what we're talking about...
18:41:58 <andythenorth> I'm sure nogo has the lifetype somewhere
18:42:51 <b_jonas> primary industries are the ones that produce output right away, without having to deliver stuff to them
18:42:53 <andythenorth> hmm, even the docs have the caveats :P
18:42:59 <andythenorth> ("Usually" means that advanced NewGRF industry concepts might not fit the "raw"/"processing" classification, so it's up to the interpretation of the NewGRF author.)
18:43:05 <andythenorth> "Industries might be neither raw nor processing. This is usually the case for industries which produce nothing (e.g. power plants), but also for weird industries like temperate banks and tropic lumber mills."
18:43:50 <_dp_> lol, even humans have troubles identifying primaries sometimes :p
18:43:58 <_dp_> and I don't mean newbies
18:44:24 <_dp_> just applying classical mp rule "competition only on primaries" to firs or yeti is already a puzzle :p
18:45:54 <andythenorth> I'm curious here which is the bigger evil
18:46:08 <andythenorth> trying to analyse industry chains reliably, with no guidance
18:46:16 <andythenorth> or trying to maintain a GS against a newgrf
18:46:31 <andythenorth> one involves a lot more code, which I will almost certainly get wrong
18:47:09 <_dp_> I maintain newgrfs against a server xD
18:47:11 <andythenorth> patched Servers FTW!
18:47:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say you'd have a better time hardcoding as many newgrf economies into the GS as you can find, and trying to find a signature to identify them in the game
18:47:48 <andythenorth> oh I was just going to have them key on industrylist and cargolist
18:47:54 <andythenorth> two keys should be enough
18:48:06 <andythenorth> probably high...what's the term...entropy?
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18:48:21 <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that there's a newgrf author out there who erratically revamps his newgrfs every few months
18:48:37 <andythenorth> well I was just going to dump all the FIRS tagged versions in
18:49:01 <andythenorth> it's not hard to publish manifest.json or something from the FIRS compile
18:49:19 <andythenorth> and then ingest that for a GS compile
18:49:47 <andythenorth> I disavow trying to actually generate the GS directly from FIRS, I think that's a minor disaster
18:50:50 <glx> GS can see the relation between industries, probably not the full view but enough to decide a direction
18:51:16 <andythenorth> I don't really want to have to build a tree in sq
18:51:29 <andythenorth> I suspect my programming skills are nowhere near good enough for Squirrel
18:51:43 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: remember that high entropy means more chaos, more distributed .. pretty sure that is not what you meant :D
18:51:51 <TrueBrain> (I had to be cheeky, I am sorry :P)
18:52:06 <andythenorth> I find the definition of entropy weird anyway
18:52:19 <andythenorth> heat death of universe isn't maximum chaos, it's maximum uniformity
18:52:29 <andythenorth> planets and gas clouds and crap are chaos
18:52:41 <andythenorth> we have a weird idea of what 'order' is
18:52:50 <TrueBrain> well, you are not wrong with what you say
18:52:54 <glx> GSIndustryType can get enough info to make links
18:53:01 <TrueBrain> heat death is highest entropy, which is far from chaos :P
18:53:16 <TrueBrain> gas clouds have a pretty low entropy ;)
18:53:22 <TrueBrain> they shouldn't be there
18:53:23 <andythenorth> eh wait, we already have the industry chains
18:53:32 <andythenorth> alberth put them in the gui
18:53:43 <andythenorth> does that actually have a tree, or is just drawn with magic?
18:54:06 <andythenorth> it only does a limited part of the tree at once, so it might just be next / previous
18:54:21 <glx> I think it's just static analysis based on inputs/outputs
18:54:25 <_dp_> tree is just an array of parents anyway :p
18:54:36 <andythenorth> easy to say, hard for me to write in squirrel :P
18:54:56 <TrueBrain> isn't there an LLVM backend for squirrel? :P
18:54:58 * andythenorth looks for python to squirrel transpiler
18:55:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm getting horror visions again...
18:56:20 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: funny enough, I have code for that :P It was just not very welcoming ;)
18:57:06 <andythenorth> I remember TrueBrain had a design for changing the openttd mod framework
18:57:15 <andythenorth> there was some spec and stuff
18:59:38 <TrueBrain> vscode regex replace is pretty good .. feels a bit odd, to be able to do these things from a GUI instead of with sed, but it works fine :)
19:12:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause how about a GS release strategy using multiple GS? :P e.g. "FIRS Steeltown 4.1.2.gs"
19:12:51 <andythenorth> probably highly spammy
19:12:55 <TrueBrain> and now I really have to learn Rust macros .. this will be fun :D
19:13:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: "do X for all towns on map" is a terrible goal. it's repetitive and either X is easy/boring or the whole thing is impossible
19:13:46 <andythenorth> it's quite grindy :)
19:13:55 <andythenorth> reminds me of the original high score table goals
19:13:59 <frosch123> maybe you can sell it in japan
19:14:01 <andythenorth> like the station rating one
19:15:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the minimum profit is the worst one
19:16:22 <Eddi|zuHause> effectively means: can't have road vehicles
19:17:03 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't inflation solve that?
19:17:14 <_dp_> I wonder if I still have some saves from 1000 rating quest
19:17:22 <_dp_> that whole thing is a huge silly fest
19:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: only to a certain point
19:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: there's a tipping point where RVs are basically impossible to run at a profit
19:18:03 <frosch123> anyway, didn't we recently discover that the 1000 point win screen of ogfx has water cycle all over the place, and noone reported in 10 years?
19:18:11 <Eddi|zuHause> also, transfer credits...
19:18:31 <frosch123> transfer credits are not ttd
19:21:41 <b_jonas> it could be just some number of the towns, not all towns
19:22:19 <b_jonas> like transport at least 8000 passengers a year into any 5 towns
19:23:16 <b_jonas> in my previous game I had a few passenger buses or towns in like half the towns. the only thing I do for every town is build a statue.
19:24:50 <frosch123> "have 'appalling' rating in all towns"
19:25:18 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that effectively means "stop all vehicles"
19:25:51 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it's generally a poor game design choice to have the goal of the game to be "don't do any of the fun parts"
19:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: that doesn't work for large towns
19:26:19 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, then houses :P
19:26:30 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: and if you have vehicles running, by the time you get to the last towns, the first ones already recovered
19:26:57 <_dp_> also why would you have any vehicles with a goal like that? xD
19:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: to earn money to destroy all the trees? :p
19:28:48 <_dp_> depends on map size I guess
19:28:56 <_dp_> you can already destroy a lot with just a loan
19:29:14 <_dp_> but if not that's just 2 stations for a moneyline :p
19:29:32 <_dp_> add 2 more unused and your rating's gone :p
19:29:36 <b_jonas> luckily the train list lets you stop all your trains with a single click, same with trucks
19:29:51 <b_jonas> or order them onto depot
19:30:23 <b_jonas> there's no button to order a group of vehicles into depot and sell though
19:32:13 <_dp_> hm, that actually gave me an idea to do that as a server feature xD
19:32:30 <_dp_> not that useful though so probably not gonna happen
19:33:49 <frosch123> today seems to be the day of weird mails
19:34:19 <frosch123> now the r/openttd-associated discord channel asks whether they can represent ottd officially, whatever that means
19:34:38 <andythenorth> can we just set up an auto-reply?
19:34:43 <TrueBrain> good question, what does "official" mean in this context :)
19:34:59 <andythenorth> what is official
19:35:07 <TrueBrain> that ranges from "making decisions" to "having the verified logo" (if that is thing on Discord)
19:36:53 <TrueBrain> and when did humblebundle become spammy?
19:36:57 <frosch123> oh, it's already listed there
19:37:02 <TrueBrain> they are not really "humble" anymore
19:37:37 <frosch123> wasn't their anti-creditcard-fraud algorithm their notable thing?
19:38:26 <_dp_> password recovery link on wiki is broken :(
19:38:47 <frosch123> oh yeah, that page does no longer exist :)
19:38:52 <TrueBrain> did it ever exist? :D
19:39:09 <_dp_> do wiki accounts even work still?
19:39:09 <frosch123> i wonder whether new website, or new bananas broke it
19:39:31 <frosch123> _dp_: yes, some polish guys have been translating for the past 2 months
19:39:35 <TrueBrain> it is amazing how few questions you get about "password change" if it simply doesn't work
19:39:52 <TrueBrain> hasn't work since 2007
19:39:53 <frosch123> they have a lot of time since they translate the most ridiculous sites
19:40:11 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it did work.
19:40:27 <TrueBrain> frosch123: that would be amazing, as that should really never have worked :P
19:40:41 <frosch123> not password change, but password recovery
19:40:48 <_dp_> weird thing is... I've no idea how my password manager managed to "forget" my password ...
19:40:50 <TrueBrain> neither should work :P
19:41:05 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I wouldn't know how recovery could work, without change :)
19:41:18 <TrueBrain> but mediawiki should not have rights to modify the password in LDAP
19:41:22 <TrueBrain> if so, that would be a bug :P
19:41:37 <frosch123> TrueBrain: no, mediawiki linked to account.openttd.org
19:41:48 <frosch123> it was not the wiki password/recovery site
19:42:04 <TrueBrain> ah, okay :) Fine :)
19:42:07 <frosch123> password recovery went through django
19:43:53 <frosch123> at btpro and reddit still hating each other?
19:44:20 <frosch123> btpro moving the reddit link from "social networks" to "gamers / servers" was the funniest change on the wiki ever
19:44:39 <frosch123> esp. considering google+ is still listed
19:45:49 <frosch123> wow, the atom/rss links link to something, no idea what though
19:46:38 <_dp_> You have made too many recent login attempts. Please wait before trying again :(
19:47:46 <TrueBrain> in other news, mostly for frosch123 : in 2 weeks I have finally time again to work on the Team thingy on GitHub, and I hope we can migrate some more services to AWS
19:48:19 <TrueBrain> also means we really have to think what to do with the wiki :)
19:49:55 <frosch123> did anyone try the git-based wikis?
19:50:13 <TrueBrain> pretty sure if you haven't, nobody has .. :D
19:52:07 <_dp_> also btpro discord link is dead :p
19:53:59 <TrueBrain> _dp_: frosch123 pointed you to the recovery link :P
19:53:59 <_dp_> novapolis link is kinda weird, there are no servers anymore, just old highscores...
20:05:13 <andythenorth> I guess sometime I have to stop talking
20:05:16 <andythenorth> and write a damn GS :)
20:05:33 <andythenorth> is it some kind of main() loop type thing?
20:06:21 <frosch123> yes, main loop with event polling
20:07:00 <frosch123> not sure whether there are coroutines
20:08:09 <andythenorth> can it read json? :P
20:08:17 <andythenorth> I guess I'll need a code generator
20:08:34 <andythenorth> mad idea, bundle json with a grf, let GS read it :P
20:12:05 <andythenorth> probably a big infosec hole :P
20:13:41 <frosch123> i think you only want that for newgrf -> json -> admin port communication, so firs can phone home and report industry usage
20:16:09 <andythenorth> high score tables
20:16:31 <frosch123> compose an industry from random tiles of different industries?
20:16:43 <frosch123> or what is firs whack?
20:17:16 <andythenorth> arbitrary production goals or something
20:17:39 <andythenorth> we can use AWS queues as the database
20:18:16 <andythenorth> alternately, if we can have newgrf -> admin port communication, can we actually include a coin miner?
20:18:21 <andythenorth> we could hide it in plain sight
20:18:25 <andythenorth> 'coin mining industry'
20:19:00 <andythenorth> can I do proof of work in a callback? :P
20:19:11 <andythenorth> we have quite a lot of perm. storage now
20:19:28 <andythenorth> and we can use the town as extended storage
20:19:41 <andythenorth> we can even pass results around between different worker threads
20:26:21 <_dp_> ok, now I can login on account.openttd.org but wiki still says invalid password :/
20:26:45 <TrueBrain> they both use the same LDAP, so that is odd
20:27:48 <andythenorth> there probably should be
20:28:03 <andythenorth> do we get pentested btw?
20:28:07 <andythenorth> should be annual or so
20:28:13 <andythenorth> otherwise we could have big fines
20:32:15 <andythenorth> up to 4% of revenue or so
20:32:42 <_dp_> To help protect against automated edit spam, please type the two words you see in the box below:
20:33:10 <TrueBrain> lol, when did the captcha stop working? :D
20:33:41 <_dp_> idk, I just noticed it was there xD
20:34:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: sounds good, they pay 4% of your was fees?
20:35:19 <_dp_> though it probably isn't capcha doing since it does give different messages anyway...
20:36:08 <_dp_> unless it's checked last and error message for failing is "invalid password" :p
20:38:30 <_dp_> who can wiki plz add link :)
20:48:47 <TrueBrain> more reasons to migrate the wiki to something else :D
20:49:52 <TrueBrain> _dp_: well, you are not blocked, so that counts as something I guess :P
20:49:58 <TrueBrain> I never understood mediawiki, sadly enough
20:50:26 <TrueBrain> btw, if your username is dp, pretty sure your wiki username is 'dp'
20:51:07 <TrueBrain> your last edit was in 2005 it seems, lolz
20:51:54 <_dp_> nope, 'dp' doesn't work also
20:52:08 <TrueBrain> you once were able to login, meh, dunno, sorry :P
20:52:25 <_dp_> and I'm pretty sure I haven't been editing it in 2005
20:52:28 <TrueBrain> it is possible you cannot login, as mediawiki doesn't support _ in usernames
20:52:44 <_dp_> I may not have edited it ever actually
20:53:52 <TrueBrain> but this was before the LDAP migration
20:54:18 <_dp_> I'm not sure I even knew of openttd existance in 2005
20:54:18 <TrueBrain> and I remember mediawiki had "some" issues with _, no clue what .. so sorry _dp_ .. :(
20:54:25 <frosch123> if every game server has their own discord, they can be grouped as well
20:54:50 <b_jonas> who would have an underscore in their username?
20:55:04 <TrueBrain> why have restrictions on usernames like that? :P
20:55:21 <TrueBrain> frosch123: what sorting order did you use? :D
20:55:27 <_dp_> it's usually because of dP not being accepted for some silly reason :p
20:55:38 <frosch123> TrueBrain: the previous one
20:55:44 <_dp_> so I have _dp_ ldpl odpo oodpoo and lldpll
20:59:37 * _dp_ approves ordering by name xD
21:01:24 <frosch123> TrueBrain: do you want to admin an ottd server?
21:02:09 <_dp_> is that still redding thing?
21:02:11 <frosch123> you have to link to it from the frontpage
21:02:52 <frosch123> if we put the link to the server next to tt-forums, we can assist running the server :p
21:02:54 <TrueBrain> frosch123: so if we link it on the frontpage, we can administrator it?
21:03:04 <TrueBrain> so more burden .... so where is the gain?
21:03:11 <_dp_> imo having reddit as official server is even weirder than the discord :p
21:03:39 <frosch123> TrueBrain: the gain is that more people discover their server, or something
21:03:57 <frosch123> it's the day of weird mails
21:04:25 <frosch123> _dp_: i only know reddit for posting firs screenshots
21:04:36 <frosch123> and asking "what's the best newgrf" questions
21:04:39 <frosch123> about 3 times a day or so
21:05:24 <b_jonas> frosch123: I do both of those straight on this irc channel
21:05:33 <_dp_> btw, now that I started to pay attention it seems like the only tree grf in existance is "stolen trees" :p
21:05:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, I miss the incentive, so no tnx :P
21:06:16 <_dp_> they even have a freaking arctic variation %)
21:06:39 <_dp_> that probably share no pixels with original but is still "stolen"
21:07:33 <frosch123> _dp_: what about cztr trees, japanese trees, ogfx+ trees?
21:07:52 <_dp_> they're like 10% of screenshots :p
21:08:08 <frosch123> "stolen" does not refer to original graphics
21:08:28 <_dp_> I think I know the story
21:08:43 <frosch123> "stolen" means that someone took initiative to turn vapour ware into real stuff
21:08:46 <_dp_> all I care is that they can't be put on bananas
21:10:10 <_dp_> though I don't need them for what I do anyway
21:10:20 <_dp_> so I'm just sad there are so few tree grfs
21:11:14 <_dp_> and landscape ones in general actually
21:11:27 <_dp_> but there are more trains that anyone can count in a lifetime :p
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21:24:59 <_dp_> oh, and I think I saw some trees from original graphics on bananas somewhere...
21:26:15 <frosch123> quite sure many people include baseset sprites into their graphics
21:26:36 <frosch123> which look out of place when using a different baseset
21:30:01 <_dp_> that's an interesting point actually I haven't considered
21:30:13 <_dp_> guess I'll leave no sprite unturned :p
21:31:46 <_dp_> that's kinda silly though
21:32:01 <_dp_> so to make landscape look good for everyone you must redefine all baseset sprites?
21:33:21 <frosch123> depends what you are doing, for features with spritelayouts you can just reference the baseset sprite in the layout
21:33:41 <_dp_> well, so far I changed ground color...
21:34:04 <_dp_> don't think I can reference abase for that :p
21:34:36 <frosch123> you can draw the abase sprite first, and then add your alpha layer above it
21:35:04 <_dp_> alpha layer? I'm doing 8bit
21:35:19 <_dp_> also don't think you can do a proper tint with just alpha :p
21:35:20 <frosch123> you started mentioning abase
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21:35:34 <_dp_> well, yeah, I recolored opengfx
21:35:50 <_dp_> so for opengfx everything is fine, but abase is messed up ofc
21:36:15 <frosch123> for 8bpp, quite sure people made ground tiles by adding dithered stuff on top
21:38:51 <_dp_> well, whatever, point is I can never make sprites look well with all base sets
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21:39:14 <_dp_> just by the virtue of some being 8bpp and some 32bpp ez
21:42:33 <_dp_> though abase is whatever, real lolz is nightgfx
21:44:16 <_dp_> like how it my grf... I don't even ... begin with %)
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21:57:16 <_dp_> can I just add opengfx to a game somehow? xD
22:00:17 <glx> probably with a huge newgrf full of action A
22:01:23 <_dp_> there is bunch of opengfx+ stuff but I'm not sure that pullze even assembles :/
22:13:08 <_dp_> crazy idea of the day goes to reddit discord
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23:44:39 <Timberwolf> Some of the reddit stuff I find just weird.
23:45:27 <Timberwolf> Like there seems a surprisingly common theme of, "I can't possibly play the game until someone tells me the optimal combinations of settings/newgrfs/whatever, what if I don't enjoy it?"
23:46:45 <supermop_Home_> i feel like i would not enjoy it if told the optimal combination
23:47:17 <supermop_Home_> looking at old posts of people min-maxing Sim City was heartbreaking for me
23:47:54 <Timberwolf> The optimal combination is Gwyd's "Big Train" and a GRF which disables all other vehicles.
23:48:02 <andythenorth> Timberwolf I don't think tt-forums was any different :)
23:48:12 <andythenorth> just reddit foregrounds it more due to format :)
23:50:34 <Timberwolf> Quite possibly, I've often pondered that Reddit shows up a lot of things that would be in the "new to x? start here" thread in a traditional forum.
23:58:35 <_dp_> judging by the likes reddit exists for nice screenshots and stupid memes :/
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