IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-07-17
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03:25:28 <Gadg8eer> So... I found out something that may have been overlooked in implementing NRT.
03:27:45 <Gadg8eer> powered_roadtype_list (and NFO equivalent) has outbound compatibility but not inbound compatibility. Which means that I was able to make the Utility Roadtype Set compatible with all other roadtype sets, but only Ufiby can make URaTT compatible with other roadtype sets, and only Andrew350 can make RaTT compatible with other roadtype sets.
03:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're requiring backchanneling to every sentence, you've made a poor choice in communication medium
03:28:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that's when you talk to someone and they say "yes", "hm", "ok", "and then?"
03:29:22 <Gadg8eer> Sorry, I just don't have my PC connected to IRC at all times.
03:29:42 <Gadg8eer> So I say something and then miss the response.
03:30:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i'm saying. most likely there won't be any response...
03:31:38 <Gadg8eer> Anyway, like I said, NRT is only "outbound compatible". If someone wants vehicles for ROAD to run on a roadtype they created, they have to contact the creators of every NewGRF that replaces ROAD via NRT and then hope the creator will accomodate them.
03:32:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds backwards
03:32:41 <Gadg8eer> It is, but I tested it. It's totally true.
03:33:59 <Gadg8eer> Okay, maybe "totally" was a bad choice of words. I tested it, it's completely true.
03:35:38 <Gadg8eer> I can provide source code for you to compare against other roadtypes' source if you want.
03:35:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't help you with that, but the original railtype specs were never designed with multiple track sets loaded at the same time in mind
03:36:14 <Gadg8eer> Yes, but railtypes have inbound compatibility.
03:37:14 <Gadg8eer> You can add the RAIL railtype to TEST's "compatible_railtype_list" and all trains for RAIL will work on TEST.
03:37:51 <Gadg8eer> Otherwise it would be impossible to have mixed-guage railtypes.
03:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> why would that be different for roads?
03:38:18 <Gadg8eer> All I know is I tested it and I'm telling the truth.
03:38:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that's never a convincing sentence by itself
03:39:20 <Gadg8eer> Try using RaTT or URaTT with Utility Roadtype Set and Utility Truck Set.
03:39:22 <b_jonas> there are road types besides the two basic ones too now?
03:39:45 <b_jonas> I knew that openttd now supports more than four rail types in a game, but not about the road types
03:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: i'm not going to try anything.
03:40:38 <Gadg8eer> Sorry, forgot to say eGRVTS2. Use the NRT version of eGRVTS2 and the Utility Truck Set with the Utility Roadtype Set and either URaTT or RaTT. Or don't, but I'm telling you it's true.
03:41:12 <Gadg8eer> It might be that "powered_railtype_list" is outbound and "compatible_railtype_list" is inbound, but only "powered_roadtype_list" exists for NRT.
03:41:47 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that is nonsense
03:42:18 <Gadg8eer> And yes, there are now more roadtypes. There's like six original NRT roadsets and 5 "trimmed down" roadsets I made because there's only room for 64 roadtypes.
03:42:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "powered" is for vehicles that drive by themselves (engines), and "compatible" is for vehicles being dragged along (wagons)
03:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause> since all road vehicles are engines, "compatible" is meaningless and omitted
03:43:01 <Gadg8eer> Look, I'm not trying to lie about this. If you want, I can record a video that shows what's happening.
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03:43:41 <Gadg8eer> I'm serious. Compatibility for NRT is outbound.
03:44:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: you should probably write a ticket. and find out whether the spec is wrong, or the implementation
03:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: and make a minimal testcase
03:46:57 <Gadg8eer> That's the spec, right?
03:47:47 <Eddi|zuHause> no, NFO is the "master" spec
03:48:17 <Gadg8eer> The NML spec says it works the way I described. The game works as described when tested.
03:48:35 <Gadg8eer> And every NRT GRF is coded in NML.
03:49:43 <Gadg8eer> I understand if the NFO spec is more important, but I've never really dealt with NFO so please explain further.
03:51:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: the question is what you want us to do: change the specs to match your expectations, or change the implementation to match the specs
03:52:11 <Gadg8eer> The implementation already matches the specs. My expectations are that I shouldn't have to pester someone in order to have my NewGRFs compatible with theirs.
03:53:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if the implementation matches the specs, this means you need a really convincing argument (and i'm not the person you need to convince)
03:53:58 <Gadg8eer> Look, for just a moment, can you put aside the infallability of the OpenTTD Devs and assume they overlooked the fact that the NewGRF that replaces ROAD is the one which gives the NewGRF's creator power over other NRT NewGRFs?
03:54:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i said everything that i can say.
03:54:31 <Eddi|zuHause> take it or leave it
03:55:11 <Gadg8eer> What is wrong with you?! I told you, regardless of whether it was intentional or accidental, NRT has outbound compatibility.
03:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, look. i'm saying this just once over: 1) write a ticket, 2) make a minimal test case, 3) have a good argument
03:56:27 <Gadg8eer> Alright, fair enough.
03:56:36 <Gadg8eer> Where can I write a ticket?
03:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause> on github.openttd.org
04:07:00 <Gadg8eer> Is there a specific section for NRT, or should I just submit the ticket under Issues?
04:07:37 <Eddi|zuHause> probably just submit it
04:09:10 <Eddi|zuHause> also remember that conversations on IRC are fleeting, so any important points you brought up here you need to bring up again in the ticket, or they will be lost
04:31:57 <glx> but a flaw in nml implementation is possible
04:36:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gadg8eer opened issue #8275: NRT uses "backwards" roadtype intercompatibility https://git.io/JJZ3X
04:37:10 <Gadg8eer> Whoops. Should I mention it's an issue with NML? Should I submit the issue under NML instead of OpenTTD?
04:37:47 <glx> openttd implementation may be wrong too
04:45:07 <glx> " If you want road vehicles of other road types to be able to run on your road types, you must set the powered road types property for each road type. Setting these properties behaves always incremental, so you only need to the set additional bits for each other road type, you cannot remove poweredness once it is set (by some other grf)."
04:45:59 <glx> so basically you just need to update ROAD definition in your grf
04:58:00 <Gadg8eer> Oh. Well I wish someone had told me that earlier. Thank you!
04:58:53 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gadg8eer commented on issue #8275: NRT uses "backwards" roadtype intercompatibility, at least in NML https://git.io/JJZ3X
04:59:50 <glx> as often nml doc is less informative than the full spec
05:03:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i still haven't figured out how to make money in tropico...
05:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i've arrived in modern times, and since then i'm only losing money
05:40:58 <Eddi|zuHause> that's 5 attempts... i think i should quit
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12:08:40 <CornsMcGowan[m]> christ what are you doing
12:09:03 <CornsMcGowan[m]> is this for citymania shenanigans?
12:09:08 <CornsMcGowan[m]> something to do with town spacing is my guess
12:10:05 <CornsMcGowan[m]> at when exactly (from/to) does cargo ageing applies?
12:10:30 <CornsMcGowan[m]> disregard that poor grammar
12:10:36 <CornsMcGowan[m]> also how does it work together with transfer orders?
12:14:45 <argoneus> which troico Eddi|zuHause
12:15:47 <argoneus> im considering getting into it but not sure if i shoud get 6 or 4
12:17:15 <argoneus> i guess ill get 4 considering it's a lot cheaper
12:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, 6 was on a free weekend last week
12:26:51 <LordAro> _dp_: that is a thing
12:44:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8267: Extend viewport renaming PR to include Squirrel API https://git.io/JJZzy
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15:22:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8272: Stopped vehicule destination should be red when mouse over https://git.io/JJ35w
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22:14:27 <supermop_Home_> boring day in this channel I guess
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23:01:15 <_dp_> default grass doesn't go well with snow :(
23:03:50 <_dp_> probably shouldn't do that on night mode xD
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