IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-05-30
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00:04:23 <Speeder_> armoured do anything?
00:04:42 <andythenorth> no real gameplay effect
00:04:56 <nielsm> they inform which vehicles can carry the cargo types
00:05:44 <nielsm> also affects which cargodist setting affects the cargo I think
00:05:52 <supermop_Home> armored is mostly just to make cute trucks with bars on them in the original game
00:06:51 <supermop_Home> nielsm i don't think armored is separate, isn't it just pax/mail/everything else?
00:07:00 <Speeder_> supermop_Home, it is separate
00:07:06 <Speeder_> hazardous seemly is not separate though
00:07:19 <Speeder_> I don't think anyone even made a newgrf specially for hazardous
00:07:46 <glx> I'm sure some FIRS cargo are liquid and hazardous
00:07:52 <andythenorth> I did set it on some
00:08:24 <andythenorth> not sure if any vehicle sets use hazardous etc
00:08:31 <andythenorth> I don't think I do
00:08:56 <supermop_Home> well vanilla valuables do behave like mail in some climates and like a processed cargo in others, so i guess it makes sense to be able to change it separately
00:11:34 <Speeder_> what is importance of industry tile accept cargo?
00:12:08 <Speeder_> the amount of cargo accepted changes anything?
00:12:16 <glx> station needs to sum at least 8/8 to deliver
00:12:20 <nielsm> hm that makes me think, have anyone tried adding e.g. the gold mine to temperate and having the banks accept both valuables and gold? and a bank with a supply of gold also has increased valuables production
00:12:39 <Speeder_> nielsm, lol, this is exactly what I am planning in doing right now
00:12:44 <glx> there's a newgrf for that I think nielsm
00:12:45 <supermop_Home> nielsm i think it should be called mint in that case
00:12:59 <Speeder_> have the bank pnml open and I am wondering what accepted_cargos: [[PASS, 1], [GOLD, 8], [DIAM, 8]]; line does
00:13:20 * Speeder_ steals supermop_Home idea
00:13:27 <supermop_Home> but it doesn't really make sense for two gold melting mints to be constantly shipping stuff back and forth
00:13:32 <nielsm> means it accepts 1/8 passengers, 8/8 gold, 8/8 diam
00:13:46 <Speeder_> so what 1/8 passengers mean?
00:13:51 <nielsm> so just one tile is enough for a station to accept gold
00:14:02 <nielsm> but needs 8 of those tiles covered for the station to accept passengers
00:14:23 <nielsm> (or other tiles that accept passengers, like regular houses)
00:14:24 <supermop_Home> if a house accepts 1/8, you must have 8 houses in the catchment
00:14:49 <supermop_Home> one house by itself is not enough for a station to accept passengers
00:14:57 <Speeder_> so, bank being 1/8 passengers mean will only accept passengers if it has lots of banks?
00:15:11 <Speeder_> banks+anything else that accept passengers?
00:15:11 <supermop_Home> 1 bank and 7 houses would work
00:15:25 <glx> passengers is a common accepted cargo in towns
00:15:44 <supermop_Home> just so long as the total within the station's area adds up to 8 or more
00:16:08 <Speeder_> so lemme see, a station has an area. the game sums all "accepts" of tiles, and whenever the result is above 8, it accepts 1 of that item?
00:16:14 <andythenorth> just set tiles to 8/8
00:16:20 <andythenorth> anything else is a bug :)
00:16:42 <nielsm> anything about 8/8 accepts for a cargo type within the catchment area of a station means the station accepts the cargo
00:16:43 <Speeder_> accepts "1" or accepts infinite? or that depends on something else?
00:16:48 <nielsm> more than 8/8 has no bonus
00:16:52 <supermop_Home> really the mint should be (gold) -> mint -> (valuables) -> bank
00:18:06 <supermop_Home> though sometimes you need to return the old money to the mint to be destroyed
00:18:32 <supermop_Home> not very often with gold bullion tho….
00:19:01 <supermop_Home> valuables are really not an interesting chain
00:19:30 <supermop_Home> but as a kid in the 90s playing TTO it seemed exotic to get two towns with banks
00:19:56 <supermop_Home> and get to use the special armored wagons
00:19:57 <Speeder_> supermop_Home, I am trying to put valuables here because I am making a Brazil-themed NewGRF
00:20:07 <Speeder_> and we had huge amounts of both gold and diamond mining
00:20:15 <Speeder_> and now our biggest companies are all banks
00:20:26 <glx> and forest destruction ;)
00:20:35 <Speeder_> glx, not that much to be honest
00:20:38 <supermop_Home> yes , but i doubt they are sending trainloads of gold back and forth to each other
00:20:55 <Speeder_> saw somne interesting data from NASA today, Brazil uses only 7% of its land for agriculture, while the countries in europe on average use 60% or so
00:21:23 <supermop_Home> most countries biggest companies are banks... but most of the money moving back and forth is not physical
00:21:23 <Speeder_> supermop_Home, well, I intend them to send trainloads of gold to export ports
00:22:41 <supermop_Home> gold is kind of like uranium, in that the mine may be big and impressive, and the product expensive, but very little actual volume moves
00:23:18 <supermop_Home> though of course you can ship new tonka trucks and conveyor belt parts to the mine every month!
00:23:49 <supermop_Home> andythenorth transformers as cargoes?
00:24:07 <supermop_Home> that's what i drew the 'electrical machines' as in my RV set
00:25:38 <Timberwolf> I forgot Steeltown had cargo types ypu didn't get in Extreme, I ought to draw electrical machines and vehicles one day.
00:26:26 <supermop_Home> Timberwolf i drew a Toyota pick up and a WRX as vehicles cargo, but then never put them in my RV set
00:26:39 <supermop_Home> as i gave up drawing the car carrier
00:27:22 <supermop_Home> so currently all my vehicles are knock down kit cars shipped in crates....
00:29:03 <supermop_Home> surely a giant mech counts as a vehicle
00:30:25 <Timberwolf> I think I reused my ensp sprites as a stopgap.
00:31:18 <supermop_Home> surely this fits on a regular road....
00:31:21 <Timberwolf> In the FIRS+TWRV world, the only private vehicles are excavators.
00:34:16 <supermop_Home> if i could figure out a way for all of my dirt roads to be 40kmh except for WRXs i would
00:38:04 <andythenorth> Steeltown has gone full WTF cargos
00:38:30 <supermop_Home> drawing pipes was fun
00:39:15 <supermop_Home> i also drew ingots, rolls, and bars for steel, iron, and copper
00:39:26 <supermop_Home> zinc reuses steel bars
00:39:41 <supermop_Home> and there are no iron rolls... but i did draw them
00:39:57 <andythenorth> you know I've split all the steel and iron up?
00:40:18 <supermop_Home> pig iron dark grey, steel light grey
00:40:36 <andythenorth> steel sheet, steel wire rod, cast iron, steel sections...
00:41:02 <supermop_Home> i already have the different sprites drawn!
01:54:11 <Speeder_> anyone ever made a "medicine" cargo of any kind?
03:16:13 <supermop_Home> well i'm in what seems to be the comically bad place to be for the past 3 months
03:16:43 <supermop_Home> 20% pay cut but at least i still have a job
03:17:42 <supermop_Home> i haven't heard much about any differences between various aus states actually
05:57:54 <Speeder_> is there any obvious disvantage to having complex industries set?
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08:38:26 <LordAro> Speeder_: you ask a lot of questions
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11:06:35 <andythenorth> single-process graphics generation is much faster under pypy than py3.8
11:07:00 <andythenorth> but using a process pool with 16 workers, pypy is slower than py3.8
11:07:08 <andythenorth> guess there's substantial overhead
11:28:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: PyPy is a JIT, that's why it's fast
11:29:17 <FLHerne> That means there's compilation overhead whenever a bit of code runs for the first time, and also it gets a bit faster as it runs
11:29:36 <andythenorth> Wolf01 that was my evil idea, it would make a horrible makefile though, and it's not actually faster in this case :P
11:29:47 <FLHerne> So, yes, creating lots of short-lived processes that import all the same code is a pretty bad idea for it
11:29:54 <andythenorth> just about the worst
11:30:18 <andythenorth> my guess is that's why the chameleon templating is slower too
11:31:01 <andythenorth> chameleon doesn't spawn processes, but it has its own template pre-compilation step that seems to interact badly with pypy
11:35:03 * andythenorth won't be investigating that one further, it's <1s to template in most cases :P
11:41:20 * andythenorth wonders if ships should get navigation lights
11:41:30 <andythenorth> I'll forget to swap the red and green when I flip sprites :P
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11:52:05 <andythenorth> seems having just 3 ship sizes was a nice idea
11:52:11 <andythenorth> but 6 are better for gameplay :P
11:56:54 <andythenorth> so...how about vehicles that process cargo as they travel?
11:57:13 <andythenorth> train collects 'unsorted mail' and delivers 'sorted mail' :P
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16:47:38 <supermop_Home> hi andythenorth
17:09:40 <supermop_Home> i stayed up late last night looking at import Daihatsu kei trucks
17:12:58 <supermop_Home> cheddar valley enough for 8 tiles of containers?
17:13:14 <supermop_Home> using Grids now for 6.5 and they seem fine
17:13:25 <supermop_Home> might electrify though
17:20:39 <supermop_Home> maybe it's boring if all the freight is too fast
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18:23:07 <andythenorth> new var, like 40, 41 but taking a list of IDs as a parameter?
18:23:17 * andythenorth wants to some things with MU trains
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19:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's a way of giving a list of things as parameter
19:28:55 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can find some limited use of prop25/var42 (user bits)
19:29:21 <andythenorth> wondered about that, but there's no sensible way to recursively check a property in a consist
19:29:52 <andythenorth> list of IDs could have been in storages (limited length of list?)
19:29:58 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a callback for setting prop25?
19:30:17 <Eddi|zuHause> might be problematic
19:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> feedback loops like that are desync hazards
19:31:01 <andythenorth> looks like cb 36 can set it
19:31:08 <andythenorth> but has the warnings about loops
19:32:21 <andythenorth> action 0 prop: additional set of IDs to match in var var 40, 41
19:32:43 <andythenorth> bit crude, but might work, also static so marginally simpler?
19:32:54 <andythenorth> i.e. cacheable etc
19:33:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Single-ID prop for 'ID in prop41' ?
19:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well an idea for using prop25 would be that you group your vehicles so all bits except one are set.
19:34:26 <FLHerne> If unset, var41 matches only itself, otherwise any vehicles with the same ID set
19:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so when you OR over all vehicles in var42, if that bit is set, a "wrong" vehicle is in there
19:34:51 <andythenorth> equivalence groups FLHerne ?
19:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how you would then count those, but... details :p
19:35:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause only a small detail :)
19:35:46 <andythenorth> and it needs to count consecutively also :)
19:35:56 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes, I think
19:36:18 <andythenorth> FLHerne so like prop 25, but useful? o_O
19:37:49 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not really, except mechanically?
19:38:14 <andythenorth> this idea makes me think of ducktyping for some reason
19:38:20 <andythenorth> are you a duck? 'quack'
19:38:42 <andythenorth> for the purposes of this entire train, are you a duck? 'quack'
19:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, at least, if you're sure that there is no "wrong" vehicle in the chain, you can just count the whole chain
19:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and if there is a "wrong" vehicle you can fall back to "ah well, i tried" default mode
19:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you can only have 8 such clusters in the whole GRF, though
19:41:59 <andythenorth> this is the second time this var has come up :)
19:42:03 <Speeder_> I am getting really annoyed with graphviz
19:42:24 <andythenorth> first time was really fancy passenger trains, (dining cars etc), but with mixed coach IDs
19:42:39 <andythenorth> now the idea is fancy railcars, again with mixed vehicle IDs
19:42:48 <andythenorth> Speeder_ graphviz is a wild beast
19:43:05 <Speeder_> it doesn't support some really simple things
19:43:13 <Speeder_> like telling it a cluster is ALWAYS on the end
19:43:16 <andythenorth> it is both very complex, and very rudimentary
19:43:24 <Speeder_> it puts the thing everywhere it wants, except where I want.
19:43:36 <andythenorth> yes, it has no useful way to weight some nodes to one end of the graph
19:44:12 <andythenorth> the design of FIRS is honestly mostly now dictated by how Graphviz renders on my mac, and whether it looks nice
19:44:24 <andythenorth> and for lolz, the linux version of dot layout renders differently :D
19:45:25 <andythenorth> hmm so where is var 40, 41 in src then?
19:45:49 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:47:03 <andythenorth> can't see it in vehicle_cmd or ground_vehicle
19:48:24 <Speeder_> andythenorth, I am on windows... so I assume it looks even weirder
19:48:33 <Speeder_> oh by the way, also it CRASHES some versions of graphviz outright
19:49:05 <Speeder_> I had to download several versions of graphviz until I found one that would not segfault when loading firs dot files
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20:06:58 <andythenorth> hmm, cargo subtype can't persist over autoreplace
20:07:25 * andythenorth had an alternative idea about MU trains using subtypes
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20:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: probably in newgrf_something.cpp
20:38:02 <andythenorth> I could just search for 0x40
20:40:13 <andythenorth> NCVV_POSITION_CONSIST_LENGTH and NCVV_POSITION_SAME_ID_LENGTH look plausible
20:40:49 <andythenorth> yup cached as expected
20:42:07 <andythenorth> PositionHelper() maybe
20:43:29 <andythenorth> so extend that to look at [something] and give it a new number
20:48:21 <andythenorth> looking at other vars
20:49:11 <andythenorth> it could take 'number of other IDs as a parameter' and then have a defined range of temp. registers that can be stuffed with IDs (maybe up to 32?)
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21:44:30 <supermop_Home> well it didn't blow up
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22:05:17 <LordAro> seems unlikely to blow up at this point
22:08:24 <andythenorth> supermop_Home how's the game going? o_O
22:15:28 <supermop_Home> scheduling a bunch of trains to pass through a flat junction
22:16:27 <supermop_Home> upgraded to flanders and cascaded all the grids and cheddar vallies
22:20:06 <andythenorth> I think railcar trailers are off the agenda :)
22:20:41 <andythenorth> would need a newgrf spec extension; might do 25% run cost discount for all but first vehicle
22:20:54 <andythenorth> still leaves them over-powered :P
22:40:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #7662: Station sets using ground tile numbers using incorrect tiles for maglev and monorail https://git.io/fjMEK
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23:03:11 <supermop_Home> you can ctrl click a vehicle to stop or start it?
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23:16:19 <andythenorth> not as mind blowing as auto-signal though :P
23:18:24 <supermop_Home> I've been using that for years tho
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23:41:56 <supermop_Home> 3 track termini are not actually that much more useful than 2 track
23:43:27 <andythenorth> depends how often the junction blocks
23:43:50 <supermop_Home> also with any kind of flat station throat it seems pretty much impossible to clear it any faster than about 6 days
23:44:51 <supermop_Home> 10 day headway seems to be the practical minimum for a regular end of line station
23:46:17 <supermop_Home> so 2 platforms works fine, have each train lay up for like 12 days, to let the following one plenty of time to clear the throat
23:46:34 <supermop_Home> and rarely does a train need more than 12 days to load
23:46:57 <Yexo> That depends on which train newgrfs you use
23:47:31 <supermop_Home> so you don't need 3 platforms for it to wait skip a slot
23:47:35 <Yexo> Also wider stations can be nice to act as a buffer in case there isn't always enough cargo to fill up trains immediately
23:48:14 <supermop_Home> Yexo ususally if i timetable trains i get rid of the full load orders
23:48:43 <Yexo> I basically never use timetables
23:48:52 <supermop_Home> if a freight train waits until the next one is in the station to load, you always get decent service
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23:52:33 <supermop_Home> 3 track station are nice if one train is hopelessly behind on schedule and needs to pass a train in front
23:59:45 <andythenorth> I tried timetabling something once
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