IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-05-24
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00:00:02 <supermop_Home> those freights going to the harbor really should be electric
00:09:48 <andythenorth> I just started a new game, but ma eyes are closing
01:19:25 <Speeder> how hard is to create a new economy for FIRS?
01:19:30 <Speeder> I am making a Map about Brazil
01:19:42 <Speeder> and kinda sad that half of the relevant industries are in one economy, and the other half is in the other
01:19:55 <Speeder> don't even need new industries, just merge existing ones
01:20:18 <Speeder> (although I would love to have a nuclear powerplant... Brazil has only one but it is wildly famous, maybe because there is only one)
01:20:39 <Speeder> (that said Brazil export a lot of nuclear fuel, so would be good to be able to do that too)
01:21:25 <FLHerne> Speeder: Code-wise, trivial
01:22:45 <supermop_Home> Speeder "a lot" of nuclear fuel is still usually pretty small in terms of train loads per year,
01:23:17 <FLHerne> Add a new file under src/economies with the list of cargos, add `industry.economy_variations['NEW_ECONOMY'].enabled = True to the industries you want to be in it
01:23:25 <FLHerne> And a couple of strings
01:23:43 <FLHerne> AIUI, the hard part is getting the balance right so it's fun
01:24:00 <FLHerne> And drawing all the pixels, of course
01:24:04 <supermop_Home> which is the main reason andy hasn't included any nuclear industry chains.. it's just not that interesting at Openttd scale
01:24:15 <Speeder> well, for nuclear fuel maybe join all of the minerals as one, "Rare Earths"
01:24:25 <Speeder> Brazil is one of the biggest exporters of "rare earths"
01:25:32 <Speeder> FLHerne, my idea is merge a bunch of "Hot Country" into "Extreme"
01:25:38 <Speeder> specially cassava and coffee
01:25:48 <Speeder> since those are staple foods here
01:28:14 <Speeder> where is firs source?
01:28:16 <FLHerne> Although Extreme is pretty big already, so you might want to drop something...
01:29:10 <FLHerne> (master won't build with current nml, you need the v4 branch or one of the other recent ones)
01:29:44 <Speeder> also would have to change "beet"
01:31:50 <Speeder> how I figure out what v4 does different?
01:31:56 <Speeder> or how useful, or not... it is?
01:33:39 <FLHerne> Ask andy tomorrow is probably easiest
01:33:55 <FLHerne> Rephrasing more clearly:
01:34:15 <FLHerne> - The 'master' branch of FIRS can't be compiled with the current version of nml
01:34:42 <FLHerne> So you can compile the 'v4-development-track' or another recent branch with current nml
01:34:54 <Speeder> just saw FIRS 4 will remove extreme and hot country
01:35:00 <Speeder> that... kinda is totally opposite of what I want :P
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01:35:15 <Speeder> so I won't use v4 as base
01:35:17 <FLHerne> Or one of the tagged FIRS releases with an older nml version
01:35:18 <Speeder> need to choose another branch
01:35:47 <FLHerne> sorry, v4-release-track is the current branch
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04:45:20 <Speeder> I can't f igure how to make my msys2 install pillow :(
04:45:32 <Speeder> whenever I tyr it complains there is no libjpeg
04:45:36 <Speeder> but I installed all the ones I could find
05:31:35 <Speeder> why building FIRS is so hard?
05:31:44 <Speeder> new nml refuses to compile it
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05:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, $someone once told me i shouldn't bother making nml backwards compatible when i attempted to do so
05:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "maintaining two branches is easy" they claimed
06:06:30 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there are probably 3 viable paths here: 1) roll back to an older system (probably just python) version to make nml run, 2) backport the commits that made nml run on the newer system/python to the 0.4 branch, or 3) revert the offending removal-commits from firs master
07:30:05 <Speeder> what was first version of nml that supports 16 outputs?
07:31:08 <Speeder> to make firs compile I ended making a franken toolchain with lots of mixed versions of old stuff until nml ran, and even then had to edit some py files on nml itself because it was using stuff that was removed from python
07:31:13 <Speeder> because I couldn't downgrade python
07:31:38 <Speeder> I sadly can't just use newer firs because they removed the stuff I want to actually use
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08:30:08 <Speeder> so grpahviz was crashing
08:30:23 <Speeder> so I download a new version, compiled with MSVC instead of mingw
08:30:30 <Speeder> copied all its bin files, pasted on mingw folder
08:30:38 <Speeder> frankentools for the win
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10:14:58 <andythenorth> the nml backwards compatibility approach
10:15:13 <andythenorth> does leave older graphs dead
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11:04:26 <Wolf01> I think it happened something I couldn't understand :/
11:55:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yeah, I think it's a mistake at this point
11:55:41 <FLHerne> There's too much nml code to go around breaking it
11:55:56 <FLHerne> Maybe a 1-2 [feature] release deprecation cycle?
11:56:06 <andythenorth> if the docs were versioned it would make sense
11:56:16 <andythenorth> but we don't actually simplify it for authors
11:57:10 * andythenorth words, more coffee
11:57:36 <andythenorth> the intent of aggressively moving forward would be great, but we have to do all of that, not just some of it
11:58:52 <andythenorth> oof, there are too many FIRS forks on old versions of FIRS
11:59:09 <andythenorth> and FIRS is aggressive about moving forward, so they're stuck on the old version
11:59:27 <andythenorth> and they have no route forward because they're no develolopers like me
12:03:53 <andythenorth> hmm I really need more coffee
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12:21:31 <michi_cc> I'm not very well versed in the NML internals, but is there something that would make supporting the old produce syntax exceptionally difficult, or does sombody just need to spend some work on?
12:22:22 <michi_cc> I can't imagine that any of the properties would pose a problem there.
12:25:47 <TrueBrain> fun random fact: the top 10 BaNaNaS objects (in terms of bandwidth) are good for only 45% of the traffic
12:26:41 <nielsm> michi_cc: I'm quite sure I had it working at one point
12:27:03 <nielsm> and then was told that NML syntax is not supposed to be backwards compatible and only keep the latest and greatest
12:27:52 <andythenorth> historically, AIUI, nml moved forward with removing syntax
12:28:13 <andythenorth> but I suspect that was due to a combination of 'mistakes were made' in nml
12:28:27 <andythenorth> and cleaning up weird parts of the newgrf spec that nobody should be using
12:29:24 <andythenorth> that's quite different to now
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12:30:01 <michi_cc> Well, either nml should stay backwards-compatible, or the old (0.4) branch needs to get maintanance, too.
12:30:01 <andythenorth> there are all these FIRS forks made by people who will (1) struggle to upgrade the nml (2) struggle to maintain an old python environment
12:30:24 <andythenorth> its the problem of producing development tools for non developers
12:30:50 <andythenorth> I don't want to talk myself into an accidental sadness quit :)
12:33:39 <andythenorth> nielsm probably not hard to revert the removals?
12:33:53 <FLHerne> michi_cc: 0.5.0 actually had the original Produce block code, just unused
12:34:23 <andythenorth> the problem I see, maintaining the old syntax wins nobody anything, it just feels nicer
12:34:25 <FLHerne> It got removed in 0.5.1
12:34:44 <andythenorth> the grfs using the old syntax are dead either way
12:34:49 <FLHerne> Incidentally, I really don't love the new syntax, it's pretty ugly :-/
12:35:09 <andythenorth> deferring the issue that the authors aren't capable of updating doesn't make the grfs less dead
12:36:39 <andythenorth> my point would be much better explained by an xkcd :)
12:36:45 <andythenorth> is there an appropriate one?
12:36:51 <michi_cc> That assumes everybody wants to have 16-in-16-out cargoes, doesn't it?
12:37:25 <andythenorth> it's just a matter of time
12:38:02 <andythenorth> but I think they'll want mixed syntax
12:38:09 <andythenorth> they'll have 30 industries on the old syntax
12:38:21 <andythenorth> and 1 new one on the new syntax
12:38:28 <andythenorth> all with unique hand-crafted nml
12:40:06 * andythenorth should never be the nml maintainer
12:51:41 <andythenorth> nml 0.6? Put the old syntax back? :)
12:53:48 <FLHerne> I don't know if it's worth trying to change that in retrospect
12:54:16 <FLHerne> Are there any NML industry grfs that *aren't* FIRS or a direct fork of it?
12:57:49 <FLHerne> I mean, I'd be +1, but I probably can't be bothered to do it myself :p
12:59:05 <andythenorth> I don't know what ECS is now
13:00:01 <andythenorth> (counting all the Auz Ind as one) I can name 5 FIRS forks
13:00:07 <andythenorth> there's probably more
13:04:27 <andythenorth> is it possible to have two different .exe files on windows?
13:04:39 <andythenorth> just wondering how much of a problem it is to have 2 nml
13:11:16 <nielsm> if you like to have both on path you can just rename one, like nml4.exe and nml5.exe
13:14:00 <andythenorth> ok so the biggest problem is people who depend on package managers?
13:14:08 * andythenorth has so many nmls :P
15:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> <michi_cc> I'm not very well versed in the NML internals, but is there something that would make supporting the old produce syntax exceptionally difficult, or does sombody just need to spend some work on? <-- i had a crude patch trying to unify the old and the new grammar, but i don't remember if there was anything needed for the internals. i think it was just about having both the old and new code to keep around
15:16:00 <nielsm> yea I'm pretty sure the hard part is making sure the grammar is unambiguous
15:16:49 <nielsm> also unrelated, the big update to derail valley is great, very much recommend if you like driving trains
15:18:21 <andythenorth> oops unintended highlight :D
15:44:21 <glx> I think it should be possible to reintroduce removed industry vars, with a deprecated warning when they are used
15:45:36 <Speeder> glx, I would like that O.O
15:46:06 <Speeder> just woke up :D I liked that talk
15:46:32 <glx> as I don't see openttd removing support for old variables because old grf exist
15:47:37 <Speeder> the way nml works now, in my point of view, just make creating newgrfs a pain, any new newgrf author will likely want to fork whatever he is using
15:48:21 <Speeder> so at best, a community of old nml authors will eventually show up
15:48:38 <Speeder> at worst, they don't show up at all, and you end with openttd content being made mostly by andy and noone else
15:49:01 <glx> for some nml features it can be hard to maintain both old and new syntax, but for variables it's quite easy
15:53:16 <glx> anything valid in newgrf spec should be valid in nml
15:53:38 <andythenorth> glx that just leads to people using crap parts of the API
15:53:50 <andythenorth> there are parts of the newgrf API that are borderline broken
15:54:01 <andythenorth> and it would be very confusing to authors
15:54:16 <andythenorth> Speeder out of interest, why can't you just use an older nml exe?
15:54:17 <glx> but variables and props should be ok
15:54:41 <andythenorth> it's still a false economy, because the older grfs are dead
15:54:52 <andythenorth> so maintaining support is weird
15:55:23 <glx> but authors could convert to new syntax more easily if old syntax still compiles
15:55:25 <andythenorth> but then again, if you want to do an NRT grf, and you have an older industry grf, nml 0.5 screws you
15:55:41 <andythenorth> and if you only know how to get nml from a package manager as 'latest' you're all out of luck
15:55:42 <Speeder> andythenorth, I am using the 4.5 one now, but I had to hack some of its py files
15:55:45 <glx> for a big grf it can be hard to do all conversion in one pass
15:55:47 <Speeder> because it uses stuff python removed
15:56:05 <andythenorth> yeah this is the problem
15:56:10 <andythenorth> I have all the pythons
15:56:12 <andythenorth> and all the nmls
15:56:35 <andythenorth> most people will just be dependent on a package manager, and no ability to install what they need
15:56:51 <andythenorth> the problem isn't nml, the problem is python is crap
15:56:58 <Speeder> since I wanted just to do a 'quick job' and I am on windows I tried to use package managers yes
15:57:03 <Speeder> ended with a mess somehow
15:57:23 <glx> on windows there's the standalone exe
15:57:41 <Speeder> I have now 3 or 4 copies of libpng and pillow still refused to install on msys
15:57:42 <glx> at least I know it works for 0.5+
15:57:54 <Speeder> meanwhile my other python code I am using python 2.7 on windows
15:58:08 <Speeder> didn't want to risk installing python 3 on windows breaking python 2
15:58:34 <glx> in msys many pip packages must be installed via pacman
15:58:37 <Speeder> so... no pure windows toolchain for that one
15:58:54 <Speeder> glx, I installed them with pacman, didn't work
15:59:00 <Speeder> python wouldn't detect them
15:59:10 <Speeder> installing pillow with pacman made python say it has no pillow
15:59:18 <Speeder> I ended finding some fugly hack on stackoverflow
15:59:25 <Speeder> interestingly even using "pip" didn't work
15:59:29 <Speeder> I had to use python -m pip
15:59:42 <andythenorth> these days, I just install the python binaries, and virtualenv every project
15:59:56 <andythenorth> I used to fuck around with package manager python, but that's a disaster
16:00:06 <andythenorth> and for a while I built all the pythons myself, but also a disaster
16:00:54 <Speeder> the line to install pip: python -m pip install --global-option=build_ext --global-option="-ldl" pillow==5.4
16:01:15 <Speeder> not using 'ldl' sometimes would crash the linker, wtf
16:02:23 <glx> pacboy -S python-pillow just works
16:04:00 <glx> I think you also need pacboy -S python-pip
16:07:20 <Speeder> I did that, didn't work when I tried "make" on FIRS
16:07:37 <Speeder> dunno if it was because I was using mingw64 environment and should have used msys2 one or something
16:07:55 <glx> you never have to use msys2 env
16:08:24 <glx> and FIRS makefile is not the best ;)
16:08:51 <glx> I think andythenorth hardcodes stuff for his system in it
16:10:08 <FLHerne> Speeder: nmlc.exe has the Pillow/PLY deps and some interpreter version compiled in, it should just work
16:10:47 <glx> yes the standalone version contains full python and required libs
16:11:32 <FLHerne> regardless of anything else you have installed
16:12:21 <Speeder> anyway, frankentools are working now... I will leave them alone for now :P
16:12:47 <glx> it's just slower because it needs to unpack in tmp every time
16:18:43 <Speeder> any way to make stuff depend on powerplant being powered?
16:18:56 <Speeder> or to do that I would need to tinker with a "script" ?
16:22:50 <FLHerne> BSPI does it, but I have no idea how
16:24:33 <nielsm> the powerplant sets some data on the town
16:24:38 <nielsm> and the other industries read that data off the town
16:26:37 <andythenorth> it's an interesting approach
16:29:17 <andythenorth> glx feel free to rewrite the FIRS makefile btw
16:29:24 <andythenorth> you'd be the 4th person to supply one
16:30:03 <andythenorth> strictly speaking, I should move the install target to Makefile.local
16:38:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the Makefile should have the default one, and Makefile.local can be used to override it
16:40:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause but what is the default?
16:40:07 <andythenorth> it's platform specific
16:40:12 <TrueBrain> nielsm: kinda disagree; seems he downloads it fine :)
16:40:20 <TrueBrain> seems more like OpenTTD is not picking up on them
16:40:24 <TrueBrain> common cause: openttd.cfg in random place
16:40:36 <nielsm> well he gets NightGFX downloaded as the default graphics set
16:40:36 <TrueBrain> but how do you read a download issue in that thread?
16:40:52 <TrueBrain> that for sure is not possible :D You have to select it :)
16:41:02 <nielsm> it's the second report I see of someone just installing the game and ending up with NightGFX
16:41:16 <andythenorth> call it a feature :)
16:41:18 <TrueBrain> maybe the bootstrap does funky stuff?
16:41:28 <andythenorth> is it the official binary? :P
16:42:29 <Borg> everything is in forum of BSPI on tt-forums
16:42:52 <TrueBrain> nielsm: seems someone needs to debug with him a bit; but I don't see how it is an infra issue, so not much I can do to help. This requires a bit of OpenTTD debugging
16:43:14 <TrueBrain> of course if someone uploaded NightGFX under the OpenGFX name, stuff like this can also happen .. not sure hwo uploaded OpenGFX <latest> to BaNaNaS :D
16:43:27 <andythenorth> urgh, USB-C and NVME is so slow
16:44:27 <Speeder> andythenorth, how I add multiple names to an industry? my attempt doesn't compile
16:44:41 <TrueBrain> so what is the bootstrap of OSX doing?
16:45:43 <Speeder> nevermind, literally typing "make" several times in a row, made it work
16:46:27 <Speeder> it compiles partially
16:47:01 <andythenorth> Speeder what are you trying to do? o_O
16:47:18 <Speeder> andythenorth, repurpose clay pit to be bauxite mine, since it looks similar
16:47:31 <Speeder> so I just added a line that change clay pit name to bauxite mine (I edited the language file too)
16:47:42 <Speeder> but the compiler says I am trying to concatenate a tuple Oo
16:48:01 <Speeder> File "src/render_docs.py", line 117, in get_industry_all_names
16:48:02 <Speeder> result.append(base_lang_strings.get(name_string, 'NO NAME ' + name_string + ' ' + industry.id))
16:48:02 <Speeder> TypeError: can only concatenate str (not "tuple") to str
16:49:03 <TrueBrain> so what is the bootstrap doing?
16:49:07 <TrueBrain> how does it pick one or the other baseset?
16:49:27 <TrueBrain> (I really have no idea; never looked at that code :P)
16:50:17 <andythenorth> Speeder do you want the clay pit?
16:50:19 <nielsm> _network_content_client.RequestContentList(CONTENT_TYPE_BASE_GRAPHICS);
16:50:34 <Speeder> andythenorth, I just want to reuse claypit, so it outputs bauxite ore
16:50:46 <FLHerne> Speeder: At least one version of FIRS had an actual bauxite mine
16:50:46 <nielsm> I think it just requests the first base graphics set bananas returns
16:51:01 <TrueBrain> nielsm: lolz .. that would be ... stupid? Silly? Not sure what word I want to use here :D
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16:51:24 <Speeder> FLHerne, mixing 1.x with 3.x sounds quite nuts
16:51:43 <nielsm> is what I see from those two functions
16:51:56 <Speeder> still, Brazil is a huge net exporter of Bauxite... and we had two infamous accidents with bauxite mines in the last 4 years, can't just skip it
16:52:30 <TrueBrain> nielsm: that is like ... really silly :D
16:52:36 <TrueBrain> so for years it downloaded just what-ever came first :)
16:52:46 <TrueBrain> most likely also explains why often it was downloading an older OpenGFX
16:52:54 <TrueBrain> so this was chance based :D
16:53:00 <Speeder> (we had two different mines, but belonging to the same company, have their dams break and flood nearby towns with mud... imagine just like the default FIRS clay pit grpahics, where the site of the industry breaks open and all the water and mud slides out and wipes out a town completely out of the face of the earth...)
16:53:07 <andythenorth> Speeder what FIRS version?
16:53:10 <TrueBrain> ideally, it should show a dropdown for you to pick a version, I guess
16:53:14 <Speeder> 3.soemthing I am hacking
16:53:20 <TrueBrain> nielsm: what we can do, is fix this for now in bananas-server
16:53:22 <Speeder> 4 removed the economies I want
16:53:26 <TrueBrain> but possibly this needs attentions in the client too :)
16:53:38 <FLHerne> Speeder: Aren't you making your own economy anyway?
16:53:54 <nielsm> TrueBrain: I suppose that would be the best yes, show a list of all basesets available (and their download size) and ask which one to use, and probably default to OpenGFX explicitly
16:54:09 <Speeder> FLHerne, yes, but it is heavily basded on Extreme and Hot Country
16:54:21 <TrueBrain> the first tt-forums you showed btw is only part of this story, ofc. For some reason his own downloads are also not showing up
16:54:33 <TrueBrain> but yeah, we can fix this in the infra for now :)
16:54:39 <nielsm> but yeah some hack to make bananas always return opengfx first and maybe with a slight delay before any other sets
16:54:49 <andythenorth> but it's not very sustainable approach to editing FIRS :)
16:55:16 <TrueBrain> the list returned is just that, a list
16:55:19 <TrueBrain> so no need for a delay :)
16:55:22 <Speeder> andythenorth, I added one more line to that file
16:55:27 <TrueBrain> (in the same package are like N contentinfos :) )
16:55:38 <nielsm> I was afraid it was like one packet per item and they could risk being reordered
16:55:40 <Speeder> andythenorth, then did like the steel mill does, changing the name on my economy only, to refer to that line
16:55:49 <Speeder> but it instead complains it is concatenating tuples, everywhere
16:55:54 <TrueBrain> but it shouldn't only put OpenGFX there, also the latest OpenGFX :)
16:55:56 <FLHerne> Speeder: v4 should still have most of the industries you're interested in, though?
16:56:13 <FLHerne> The 'economy' file is pretty much just a list of the cargos
16:56:13 <andythenorth> Speeder probably a missing ',' or an extra ','
16:56:42 <FLHerne> IMO, forking a version that's already outdated and won't build with current tools is a bad idea long-term
16:56:53 <Speeder> andythenorth, you were right :D
16:56:59 <TrueBrain> a nasty and unexpected "bug" nielsm :) I will fix it tonight :)
16:57:08 <andythenorth> FLHerne I'd be +1, but the v4 branch contains missing features
16:57:42 <andythenorth> industry closure doesn't work, and occasionally openttd reports an industry doing something invalid
16:59:17 <Speeder> how it would do something invalid?
16:59:30 <andythenorth> I didn't look yet
16:59:44 <andythenorth> it's not a consistent warning, so it's either FIRS (likely) or OpenTTD
17:01:27 <andythenorth> Speeder it's probably plausible to migrate to FIRS v4 later
17:01:39 <Speeder> andythenorth, can a CARGO have multiple multiple names?
17:01:48 <andythenorth> yes, but it's unwise
17:01:50 <TrueBrain> purely because OpenGFX was the first entry in the database, this was working fine in the old setup nielsm :D By accident, basically :P Who ever implemented bootstrap, was rather lazy tbh .. :P
17:01:52 <andythenorth> and there's no benefit
17:02:32 <Speeder> the benefit is that Brazil doesn't have sugar beets
17:02:37 <Speeder> but is a huge producer of sugar cane
17:03:09 <Speeder> but everythign else is same as FIRS already have, so I would like to just rename sugar beets to sugar cane and change the graphics :)
17:06:01 <andythenorth> that's actually the case where I removed support
17:06:11 <andythenorth> sugarcane / sugar beet used to be 1 cargo, 2 names
17:06:18 <andythenorth> just add sugarcane
17:07:36 <andythenorth> it's 1 python file, 3 lang strings, 1 import, and some crap with the icon
17:10:37 <Speeder> oh, it already exists :D
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17:12:56 <andythenorth> ping me if you get stuck adding the cargo
17:36:51 <Speeder> is it possible to make on a GRF, have "final" industries have a gameplay effect?
17:36:55 <Speeder> like powerplants affecting town growth
17:37:00 <Speeder> or builders yard speeding up building?
17:37:19 <Speeder> or needing powerplant before aluminum factory is built
17:37:23 <glx> town growth is controlled by cargos
17:39:14 <FLHerne> "needing powerplant before aluminum factory is built" should be possible in the callback
17:39:50 <FLHerne> Does delivering building supplies already improve town grown in FIRS? I thought so
17:41:18 <andythenorth> it makes me irrationally sad :)
17:41:22 <andythenorth> like, it's just a game
17:41:48 <andythenorth> but it bothers me more than it should :)
17:44:34 <_dp_> it's possible on paper but may not be good enough for a gameplay
17:44:54 <Speeder> well... Brazil has a huge economy around aluminum
17:45:05 <Speeder> and part of it is that we have a lot of power dedicated to that too
17:45:11 <Speeder> although it is the other way around
17:45:21 <Speeder> aluminum companies build factories, THEN they build powerplants
17:45:39 <Speeder> we also have a major cement manufacturer that built several coal powerplants for their own use
17:46:19 <Speeder> I would love if I could put hydro powerplants in t he game but... it probably would make more sense as decoration than an industry :(
17:47:45 <andythenorth> I have tried all this stuff
17:47:48 <andythenorth> OpenTTD can't do it
17:47:54 <andythenorth> and it will never be able to
17:48:20 <Borg> still. a lot has been done... :)
17:48:42 <Borg> I think people should focus more on math on industries.. instead building endless chains..
17:48:43 <Speeder> andythenorth, I thought of doing it with scripts
17:49:02 <Borg> not sure.. how people play game these days.. but I its boring when its stabilizes fast..
17:49:15 <Speeder> Borg, explain better please :)
17:49:21 <Borg> Speeder: did you look at BSPI?
17:49:44 <Borg> I regred I didnt made it 10 years ago.. oh well.. ;) didnt had so much free time...
17:50:19 <Borg> oh.. long story short... its default OpenTTD industries in stockpiling mode.. but there are extra params..
17:50:39 <Borg> like.. Power Plant produces electrice power.. w/ is needed by secondary industries
17:50:51 <Borg> all primary industries can have reserves with depletes... and industries close
17:51:01 <Borg> secondary industry production depends on stockpiles and ratings.
17:51:19 <_dp_> Speeder, with GS it depends on details, sounds possible for the most part but UI will probably suck
17:51:23 <Borg> primary industries needed valueables in town zones to boost production....
17:51:49 <_dp_> Speeder, like you can probably implement energy requirements but where do you show how much energy one has?
17:51:50 <Speeder> _dp_, with GS I am more thinking this: when certain conditions are met, industries get built on their historical locations
17:51:52 <Borg> you need scale everything... because its depeneded on each other..
17:52:11 <andythenorth> Speeder GS is really unpleasant to work with
17:52:18 <_dp_> Speeder, in town window or company goals mb if that fits but if you want power in a region to build industry there is nowhere to show it
17:52:20 <andythenorth> but don't let me put you off :)
17:52:36 <andythenorth> you have to manage savegame state, which is really fricking hard
17:52:41 <Speeder> for aluminum I am thinking this: at a certain date, bauxite mines get built on a certain place... (by the way, does "prospecting only" screw my GS?)
17:53:00 <Speeder> then when industrial aluminum is supposed to start, GS build powerplants and aluminum factories
17:53:16 <Speeder> Borg, the prospecting only option, affects GS?
17:53:18 <Borg> I play w/ with prosepcting only and custom GS... to handle industries preseed.. and regenerate them only for first 25 years..
17:53:51 <Borg> I dont really understand... what do you mean affects it?
17:53:53 <Speeder> for example: I want to build stuff on specific x, y positions, does prospecting-only option blocks that for the GS?
17:55:13 <Borg> Speeder: from what I hear.. you need to employ both GRF and GS.. for what you want to do
17:55:24 <Speeder> Borg, it is what I am suspecting yes
17:56:05 <Speeder> but well... I already spent 288 hours or so just making the map... this year, that is.
17:56:10 <Speeder> I started this project allt he way back in 2014
17:56:20 <Speeder> I abandoned it back then because height limit was making the map look completely awful
17:56:23 <andythenorth> OpenTTD is really poor at anything other than coop style 'MOAR' gameplay
17:56:36 <Borg> Speeder: you sure its worth the effort? :)
17:56:38 <andythenorth> it can't do scripted scenarios etc
17:56:51 <Borg> focus on economy model... but just generate maps.. its more fun imo
17:57:00 <andythenorth> most scripting tends towards goal achievement, which are usually just 'transport moar'
17:57:02 <Borg> whatever good scenerio you will do.. it will get bored after all..
17:57:06 <Speeder> andythenorth, the scripting I Want to do is mostly so I can make the game start in 1700 but still end with historic industries in correct places
17:57:35 <andythenorth> Speeder will probably work
17:57:35 <Wolf01> Make a route in less than 12 parsecs?
17:57:51 * andythenorth just rambling now
17:58:09 <andythenorth> but the ultimate OpenTTD games are played with YETI, NUTS and PURR
17:58:16 <andythenorth> that's what OpenTTD is good at
17:58:18 <_dp_> andythenorth, "FASTER" style also works if done right ;)
17:58:37 <Borg> andythenorth: yeah.. too bad I dont see BSPI servers yet ;)
17:58:37 <andythenorth> variant of MOAR :P
17:58:59 <andythenorth> OpenTTD is really crippled as a simulator where things change over time
17:59:06 <andythenorth> it's so bad, we should almost remove time evolution
17:59:11 <andythenorth> which would solve a lot of problems
17:59:18 <_dp_> andythenorth, openttd is crippled as a simulator period xD
17:59:25 <Speeder> seriously, for this project, stuff I learned so far: Python, GIS in general, QGIS, where to find official government maps of stuff, where to find non-official maps, a lot about my country geography that I never knew, tinkered a little with a .nuts script, learned a lot of weird functions for libre office calc...
18:00:12 <Borg> Speeder: if this gives you a fun... then go ahead... thats whats matter...
18:00:13 <andythenorth> _dp_ too true :)
18:00:27 <andythenorth> I am playing a game at the moment, it's good
18:00:32 <Borg> dont try to do something for community tho.. you can be seriosly disappointed..
18:00:38 <andythenorth> I was using pause mode a lot
18:00:48 <andythenorth> I wish the trains and industries would continue running in pause mode
18:00:50 <andythenorth> it would be much better
18:01:03 <Speeder> the python thing I am not sure if I am just crazy genius or idiotically dumb... but basically I concluded that I was too lazy to fight installing a toolchain for C (my favourite language) just to process my GIS data... python 2.7 was already installed, so I went with: "well, learning python must be easier than installing C toolchain on windows"
18:01:09 <Borg> andythenorth: no comment ;P
18:01:10 <andythenorth> pause the game, but all industries and vehicles keep running
18:01:53 <FLHerne> andythenorth: date cheat
18:02:18 <FLHerne> (auto-date-cheat would be nice)
18:02:24 <Speeder> Borg, I am making project mostly to myself, and to learn things, get out of my rusty spot
18:02:39 <Speeder> although I even went to college to learn gamedev, my current "day" profession is marketing
18:02:47 <Speeder> and my game making skills were getting too rusty for my taste
18:03:23 <Speeder> I was missing all this mucking around in toolchains, coding, researching, etc...
18:04:14 <Borg> thats ok then... :) I prefer to play games instead... but if I dont like sth.. I will mod it..
18:04:15 <_dp_> andythenorth, what's the problem with unpausing it?
18:04:19 <Borg> but then.. m000ar gaming :)
18:04:21 <_dp_> especially in a singleplayeyr
18:04:43 <Borg> I b0rked a lot of games... :D
18:07:48 <andythenorth> FLHerne yes like the date cheat, but built in :P
18:08:46 <Speeder> where I get information on what the industries paremeters does?
18:08:53 <Speeder> so I can get the balance right, at least in theoretical math
18:09:12 <andythenorth> which parameters?
18:13:25 <andythenorth> _dp_ did you ever come up with a solution for newgrf vs. GS vs. game economy? :P
18:13:33 <andythenorth> we both hate it, I have NFI what would be better
18:14:15 <_dp_> andythenorth, yes and no
18:14:39 <_dp_> andythenorth, what I do lately is techically no newgrf, no GS and no economy xD
18:14:57 <Speeder> andythenorth, I mean: production multiplier, cost rate, what is "clustering", etc...
18:15:51 <_dp_> though I guess you can call it economy as money actually matters
18:16:08 <_dp_> it's just that you can spend a lot of money to save a bit of time
18:18:08 <andythenorth> I never figured out what the problem I have is :P
18:18:21 <andythenorth> but it's so weird that town growth has *nothing* to do with cargo
18:18:28 <andythenorth> and is only based on 'have 5 stations'
18:18:48 <andythenorth> town growth has nothing to do with cargo
18:19:26 <andythenorth> currently the game mechanic is something like this:
18:19:36 <andythenorth> - transport cargo from industries to make money
18:19:54 <andythenorth> - picking up this cargo will cause nearby towns to grow and block your routes
18:20:03 <andythenorth> it's such a weird game
18:20:10 <andythenorth> fortunately town growth can be turned off
18:20:38 <andythenorth> town growth reminds me of the brownouts and traffic in original simcity
18:20:46 <_dp_> that's not quite how it works but whatever, default growths makes no sense
18:21:23 <andythenorth> it's like getting penalised for success
18:21:30 <andythenorth> towns just spam the map
18:21:46 <_dp_> but there are GS to make it better
18:22:09 <andythenorth> I tried making one, it's way too hard for me
18:22:09 <_dp_> for a timed goal citybuilder is pretty much the best there is
18:22:13 <andythenorth> I'm not a good enough developer
18:22:22 <andythenorth> have to deal with saveload and all that crap
18:24:07 <andythenorth> I think the reason we have so few GS is that only proper programmers can write them
18:24:13 <andythenorth> whereas any idiot can write a newgrf :)
18:24:23 <_dp_> not that doing it in C++ like me is much better but at least there are more possibilities
18:25:52 <_dp_> andythenorth, in my opinion it's the opposite, proper programmers don't want to deal with that shit :p
18:28:40 <Speeder> andythenorth, your economies have themes, what was the idea with the original "extreme" one?
18:28:48 <andythenorth> there wasn't one
18:28:52 <andythenorth> that's why I deleted it
18:29:02 <andythenorth> it was mostly a copy of Railroad Tycoon 3
18:29:54 <Speeder> well, it is being a good base for my brazil economy :D
18:30:02 <Borg> andythenorth: I agree that GS is hard... I know C very well.. but I had problems with GS...
18:30:06 <Speeder> I thought I would only expand it but just removed grain
18:30:10 <Borg> but once you pass certain point.. it goes easier..
18:30:17 <andythenorth> dealing with state is always hard
18:30:27 <Speeder> grain was using slots I needed for other things... and Brazil doesn't produce grain. (grain requires cold climates)
18:30:30 <andythenorth> newgrf doesn't have to manage state at all
18:30:54 <Borg> andythenorth: nah.. its not about state..
18:31:05 <Borg> I had very serious problem between Instance and Class.. on GS
18:31:16 <Borg> but once I got it... it went smooth
18:31:50 <_dp_> extreme idea is MOAR industries :p
18:31:51 <Borg> and in GRF you can have states as well ;P
18:32:13 <andythenorth> yes but OpenTTD manages it for you
18:33:30 <Speeder> FIRS have some hard-on for fruit or something
18:33:42 <Speeder> whenever I look at my graph it has tons of arrows around fruit
18:34:46 <andythenorth> oof, I have lost interest in my OpenTTD game
18:35:20 <Speeder> andythenorth, you have left any other leftover industries or cargo in FIRS3 ?
18:35:48 <Speeder> stuff that has graphics and maybe some code but is not in use in any economy
18:35:58 <andythenorth> look in the __init__ files for cargos and industries
18:36:05 <andythenorth> see if anything is commented out
18:36:58 <Speeder> andythenorth, sugarcane wasn't commented out, I had to add it back in
18:37:20 <Speeder> I found some industry named only "factory"
18:37:25 <Speeder> that is seemly not enabled in any economy
18:37:54 <andythenorth> I mostly delete unused things
18:42:14 <andythenorth> house grfs can control town growth, right?
18:43:10 <nielsm> not directly, I don't think
18:43:33 <nielsm> I think houses can reject being built by callback but that's it
18:44:33 <andythenorth> so FIRS could patch all the baseset houses, so they won't build
18:46:22 <nielsm> and there's also a callback for "protecting" a town building from destruction/replacement (except by direct player action)
18:46:33 <andythenorth> Borg how does BSPI control towns?
18:46:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8167: No error message subtitle for if house can't be replaced while building industry https://git.io/JfVeI
18:47:02 <nielsm> very appropriate report
18:49:11 <Speeder> I really wish I could use more than 2 outputs now D:
18:49:30 <andythenorth> oh we removed the train length markers from depot? :(
18:49:43 <andythenorth> I didn't see the commit for that
18:52:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVeZ
18:53:02 <glx> it can compile FIRS master
18:53:22 <Speeder> it bothers me graphcs won't match production but I think I will need to make mixed farm produce 2 plant items
18:53:39 <andythenorth> depot train length markers are present in 1.10.0 release
18:55:02 <andythenorth> interesting, they're missing on a specific savegame
18:56:39 <FLHerne> Some kind of deprecation warning might be wanted unless we want to support it indefinitely
18:57:15 <Borg> andythenorth: BSPI does not control towns at all..
18:57:25 <Borg> if you mean.. growth rate..
18:57:44 <andythenorth> so towns don't require power to grow?
18:58:13 <Borg> I tought I could add paracitic power usage by towns.. but that would complicate whole math again..
18:58:35 <FLHerne> Maybe too much warning, even :p
18:58:41 <andythenorth> so they deplete the amount in register?
18:59:05 <andythenorth> what if towns were re-implemented as industries?
18:59:23 <andythenorth> oh there's no 'None' option for towns
18:59:40 <Borg> or... maybe add some kind of production callback to towns itself too? ;)
18:59:46 <andythenorth> that's been ruled out
18:59:49 <andythenorth> towns are GS or nothing
19:00:42 <andythenorth> hmm, I might abandon FIRS, I'm kinda fed up with it
19:01:08 <Borg> Im a industry guy.. reallly... I never really grow towns except for goods dumps..
19:01:29 <Borg> but. in BSPI I added that thingie w/ valueables.. when you really need to grown towns.. so bank productions scale...
19:01:41 <Borg> I hate doing it... but I do it :) I wish I had PAX coop players
19:01:49 <andythenorth> I did that with junk yard in FIRS
19:01:53 <andythenorth> depends on town popn.
19:02:05 <andythenorth> I did it to give an incentive to grow town
19:02:14 <Borg> yep.. and it works very well
19:02:14 <andythenorth> but actually, growing towns is dumb as F
19:02:26 <andythenorth> they're so stupid
19:02:31 <Borg> im really happy w/ BSPI... v2.00 have just minor thing added (or major... )
19:02:41 <Borg> Organic Industries have fertility..
19:02:47 <Borg> so they can disappear too...
19:03:03 <Borg> andythenorth: well... I agree... GS script could solve it... but im too lazy to do it
19:03:17 <Borg> if someone competent could provide city builder GS scripts... would be nice
19:03:39 <Borg> they made them pretty nice... you start w/ pasangers.. and if city growns certain point.. you need to provide goods...
19:03:45 <Borg> and also... this is not 0/1
19:04:08 <Borg> its like in BSPI... ith math... bigger city -> moar passangers and goods you need to provide to for growth.. thats cool
19:04:25 <Borg> all my games I run w/ both GRF + GS..
19:04:32 <Borg> so I have no problem to split functionality...
19:04:45 <Borg> andythenorth: wanna 2.00?
19:05:00 <andythenorth> does it change a lot?
19:05:15 <andythenorth> I really don't want to go the GS route
19:05:18 <Speeder> andythenorth, you made iron horse²
19:05:22 <Borg> some minor tweaks + Param1, bit3: organics have fertility
19:05:32 <Borg> andythenorth: you dont need GS at all for BSPI
19:05:47 <Borg> I use GS only for industries preseed (I play w/ prospecting only) and to limit towns growth to 20k
19:05:53 <Borg> because I dont want them to take over the world :D
19:05:55 <andythenorth> I have NFI how I would merge GS together
19:05:59 <Speeder> andythenorth, what is the reason it removes maglev?
19:06:13 <Speeder> (not complaining, I isntalled it because one guy said it was good idea because it removes maglev, but I don't understood why)
19:06:22 <andythenorth> I saw that reddit post
19:06:31 <andythenorth> I would file that under 'people on reddit say odd things'
19:06:45 <andythenorth> it removes maglev because by convention, vehicle grfs remove the default vehicles
19:06:56 <Speeder> basically, I found an old reddit post where someone recommended a server that is specialized in 1700s gameplay
19:07:08 <andythenorth> Borg got a link? or forum DM
19:07:09 <Speeder> the webpage was down ,but I found a early version of it on archive.org
19:07:28 <Speeder> the guy recommends using FIRS and Iron Horse (not even 2, I think it didn't existed back then)
19:07:39 <Speeder> and said he likes Iron Horse because it removes default maglev, and then he install other maglev
19:08:43 <andythenorth> I got 1.01 off bananas :)
19:08:46 <Borg> if you want 2.00 let me know.. I will give you temp url... I played a game w/ it and it works great.. but I want it 100% bug gree :D
19:08:56 <Borg> I reupload v2.00 when it will be flawless
19:09:27 <Borg> andythenorth: read the forum.. because it have some Param1 bits for extra stuff
19:09:33 <Borg> I suggest playith w/ Param1 = 8
19:09:39 <Borg> I suggest playith w/ Param1 = 7
19:09:55 <Borg> but in forum its all info..
19:10:58 <Borg> people raported weird things when smooth economy is enabled
19:11:11 <andythenorth> smooth economy :|
19:11:38 <Borg> smooth economy makes changes boring..
19:12:33 <andythenorth> so industry will only produce if power station in same town is supplied?
19:12:36 <Borg> but I implements industry production changes.. both monthly and random..
19:12:46 <Borg> andythenorth: yes.. and as I said.. its math..
19:12:56 <andythenorth> how are you forcing every town to have a power station?
19:13:15 <andythenorth> yes I see on the map
19:13:59 <Borg> hence.. thats why I use GS as well.. (not published yet)
19:14:02 <andythenorth> oh lol all the coal mines on the map closed at once
19:14:09 <andythenorth> I guess I changed a setting
19:14:25 <Borg> ahh.. applied setting on running game?
19:14:30 <andythenorth> bad things happen
19:14:51 <Borg> andythenorth: if you have 1.8.0 openttd
19:14:52 <nielsm> I should finish up that GS industry control PR
19:14:56 <Borg> you can jump in to my server... :)
19:15:15 <Borg> so you can take a look.. but. playing alone slowly is fun too
19:15:17 <andythenorth> can't run 1.8.0, it's 32 bit :)
19:15:21 <andythenorth> I will try locally
19:15:42 <andythenorth> nielsm others might, but I don't think I'd ever write a GS to try and fix FIRS
19:16:10 <andythenorth> there are too many roadbumps to make it worth it
19:16:28 <nielsm> FIRS doesn't have as much of that problem with industries closing before anyone begins servicing them
19:16:54 <nielsm> don't default settings in FIRS basically make industries never close?
19:17:20 <andythenorth> newgrf closure doesn't work :)
19:17:43 <nielsm> because that's the main problem I invented that PR for, allowing scenarios to have pre-built industries that stay put until a player begins servicing each
19:18:27 <Speeder> oooh, found lots of cool removed stuff on git, I will see if I can restore them reverting-cherry-picking somehow
19:18:31 <nielsm> anyway imma play some more derail valley
19:18:37 * andythenorth should play Blitz
19:19:25 <Borg> andythenorth: one Power Station can supply 2-4 industries (layout depended)
19:19:39 <Borg> I mean... 100% prod for Power Station and Industries in same time
19:19:51 <Borg> but.. of course.. U can have twice the industries running at 50% each
19:20:13 <Borg> in BSPI.. there is much more micro to play..
19:20:26 <andythenorth> primary production growth is the classic % transported?
19:20:37 <Borg> yep.. at least 75%+ to up..
19:20:45 <Borg> if <50% it start to drop
19:20:59 <Borg> also.. stockpiles must be sufficient.. around 250 units per 4%
19:21:52 <Borg> dont worry... cargo ratio calculation is affected :) works well..
19:23:01 <andythenorth> oops I supplied a power station with no secondaries in the town
19:23:24 <andythenorth> Borg what size maps do you play normally?
19:25:10 <Borg> small maps... 256x256 or 512x512
19:26:12 <Borg> yeah... its hard to grow network too large w/ extractive stuff.. becuse industries runs out of resources and close
19:26:24 <Borg> and you need to reprospect them.. so.. its always something to do.. to adjust
19:26:38 <Borg> my current server game is 2500 year.. and still going..
19:26:47 <Borg> map is very very growded now. because I dont close old stations..
19:27:01 <Borg> because sometimes... industry spawn just right close to it.. so I can reuse it right away :)
19:27:23 <Borg> and if not very close.. I do transfer stations using normal rails...
19:28:17 <Borg> anyway.. bbl :) if you have questions.. shot.. I will answer them later..
19:32:23 <Speeder> andythenorth, I see why you are removing stuff from firs... your IDs are full
19:33:25 <Speeder> andythenorth, FIRS3 are full, no vacant IDs for sprites
19:33:33 <Speeder> meaning I can't just restore the old ones you deleted
19:34:18 <andythenorth> you're getting an nml warning?
19:34:53 <Speeder> no, I mean I opened the file global_constants.py, and tile_numeric_ids has all IDs in use, it seems
19:35:00 <Speeder> unless you skipped lines
19:35:42 <andythenorth> there are 100 or so vacant
19:36:03 <Speeder> ah, I can go "backwards" ?
19:36:16 <Speeder> I thought those ids couldn't overlap with the industry_numeric_ids ones
19:36:21 <andythenorth> original FIRS was trying to not conflict with default industry tiles
19:36:24 <andythenorth> I don't know why
19:36:37 <Speeder> you didn't made original FIRS?
19:36:45 <andythenorth> I didn't write much of the code
20:51:35 <Speeder> andythenorth, so what is "output ratio" and what is "prod multiplier" ?
20:53:43 <andythenorth> looks like prod_multiplier is for primaries
20:54:00 <andythenorth> it's the amount of cargo they produce 7 or 8 times a month or so
20:54:32 <andythenorth> looks like processed_cargos_and_output_ratios is for secondaries
20:54:48 <andythenorth> it's the required cargos, and how much they produce per 8 units delivered
21:10:39 <andythenorth> when attempting to place industries, could OpenTTD test whether it can terraform the location?
21:10:51 <andythenorth> or does that have performance problems?
21:13:12 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I guess combined with tile-placement callbacks you'd have a mess
21:13:30 <FLHerne> How does it know *how* to terraform the location?
21:14:54 <andythenorth> extended industry layout specification, encodes permitted tile height relative to the north tile
21:15:08 <andythenorth> slopes are already somewhat known, but require running the cb :(
21:15:24 <andythenorth> alternately, take a copy of the whole map, and try terraforming n times to see if it works :P
21:15:36 <andythenorth> the objective is larger industries
21:17:12 <andythenorth> but eh, the bigger the industry, the slower the terraforming check? something(n)
21:20:17 <FLHerne> glx: Sorry, I think I was wrong :-/
21:22:57 <FLHerne> I didn't properly understand the effect of the `return` in pre_process(), it made more sense the way you had it :-(
21:23:21 <FLHerne> Maybe a comment in parse_actionD though
21:39:48 <andythenorth> I never noticed the stereo on the sound effects before :)
21:40:58 <Speeder> how industry GRF authors test if economy is working right?
21:41:06 <Speeder> ie: check if there is no over or underproduction
21:42:08 <andythenorth> they play, endlessly
21:42:19 <andythenorth> and sometimes they break their savegame, and have to start again :P
21:59:07 <LordAro> Speeder: if you're not sure, the answer is yes
22:01:19 <FLHerne> andythenorth: In your experience, is pypy 7.3 dramatically faster than 7.2?
22:01:32 <FLHerne> Or did my laptop suddenly get faster? :p
22:02:29 <andythenorth> FLHerne I don't have comparison numbers
22:02:43 <andythenorth> but FIRS compile is now really really quite fast
22:02:53 <FLHerne> I mean it's, like, twice as fast as pypy was before
22:03:03 <FLHerne> And that was pretty fast compared to CPython :p
22:03:40 <andythenorth> it's a remarkable improvement
22:04:13 <andythenorth> hmm, I should have benchmarked my old laptop and this one against each other
22:04:25 <andythenorth> this one drops 0.6Ghz on the clock speed
22:04:51 <andythenorth> but gains on intel turbo boost (if it uses it, can't tell)
22:05:57 <andythenorth> could we multi-thread the parse step and the pre-processing? :P
22:14:16 <andythenorth> ha ha, when drawing FIRS industries, I sometimes use a single-industry compile option
22:14:23 <andythenorth> it's < 3s now for that
22:17:09 <glx> andythenorth: nmlc warning: "generated/firs.nml", line 293: Named parameter 'market_tree_snow' is not referenced, ignoring. (v4-release-track branch)
22:17:32 <andythenorth> that's interesting
22:17:49 <andythenorth> is that newly discovered from the PR?
22:19:47 <andythenorth> do we have nml PRs queuing up? :)
22:20:48 <glx> for #151 I hope Eddi|zuHause can test it, but that needs some changes in CETS
22:22:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not ready to test that yet
22:23:05 <glx> anyway this change may break all worklow similar to CETS one
22:25:15 <FLHerne> glx: Ah, I was just trying it out on FIRS
22:38:26 <Speeder> whoa, just noticed biofuel on FIRS is for 2001
22:38:29 <Speeder> will have to change that
22:38:41 <Speeder> brazillians probably easily forget biofuels outside here are uncommon :P
22:39:07 <Speeder> (first biofuel plant in brazil was in 1925, and government heavily funded a lot of them in 1970s because of the petroleum shock)
22:40:54 <andythenorth> yeah, I might backdate that one day
22:41:19 <andythenorth> there is long history of biofuel, but the FIRS treatment was a bit 2000s USA
22:44:38 <Speeder> andythenorth, how I bump firs version so I don't mix with yours?
22:45:25 <FLHerne> If you're going to distribute it, you should change the grfid (and name)
22:45:55 <Speeder> when I am going by car to my grandparents home, I pass a ludicrous amounts (like, continuously occupied land in a 300km long stretch of road) of sugar cane plantations, biofuel factories and sugar factories
22:45:58 <Speeder> also they are incredibly smelly
22:46:09 <Speeder> thing is, WHERE is that? O.o
23:10:26 <FLHerne> Speeder: src/templates/header.pynml
23:15:49 <Speeder> prob_in_game is in what scale?
23:15:53 <Speeder> when the game checks that number?
23:21:25 <FLHerne> When placing industries at map creation, and I think also when they appear while playing
23:27:16 <Speeder> I was trying to understand if it was percentage or not
23:27:21 <Speeder> but seemly game decides it WILL build an industry
23:27:26 <Speeder> it just doesn't know what one
23:27:48 *** Smedles has joined #openttd
23:27:50 <Speeder> thus the number is just used to "pie-chart" the chance between industries to get built?
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continue to next day ⏵
