IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-05-10
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00:00:00 <frosch123> it's certainly better than "anchorage block" :)
00:01:03 <mcbanhas> Either way, just to illustrate current English text is lacking.
00:01:10 <FLHerne> I can find all of "bridge head", "bridge-head" and "bridgehead" in technical papers from Google :P
00:02:03 <FLHerne> Maybe just "Ends not at the same level" ?
00:02:47 <andythenorth> it's called a bridgehead in war because that's the bit of the bridge you want to capture
00:03:00 <andythenorth> one doesn't capture the bridge middle, it's tactically poor :P
00:03:05 <FLHerne> Well, in full that's "Can't build bridge here... Ends not at the same level" no I don't like it
00:03:06 <andythenorth> it's a bridgehead
00:03:31 <andythenorth> I have often been annoyed by that message and wondered if there's a better way
00:03:38 <FLHerne> Looks like a verb wth stupid grammar, anyway
00:03:39 <andythenorth> I didn't think of one
00:04:06 <FLHerne> "Bridges must be level"?
00:04:24 <andythenorth> "Can't build bridge here. Start and end tiles not at same level"
00:04:31 <andythenorth> just call things what they are
00:04:33 <mcbanhas> Also, too many tooltips with the word "etc" in them
00:04:35 <andythenorth> no off-screen actors
00:05:01 <mcbanhas> andythenorth, not bad
00:05:12 <andythenorth> eliminate needless ellipses
00:05:22 <andythenorth> they are either for truncations in quotes (not here)
00:05:26 <andythenorth> or they're stylistic
00:05:30 <FLHerne> I don't love it, but it's better than "Bridge heads"
00:05:33 <andythenorth> we don't need them, we're not telling gags
00:05:57 <andythenorth> and something like the 3rd rule of screenwriting: don't refer to offscreen characters
00:05:59 <FLHerne> andythenorth: e.g. in "Can't build bridge here..." ?
00:06:05 <andythenorth> i.e. only use the concepts we're already using
00:06:27 <andythenorth> there is one exception: in suspense movies the antagonist is offscreen for most of the movie
00:06:36 <FLHerne> IMO those should be colons
00:06:45 <FLHerne> Except I think that causes problems?
00:06:49 <mcbanhas> I rewrote the tunnel description in similar way:
00:06:58 <andythenorth> I would use an em-dash because I have unusual style choices
00:06:58 <mcbanhas> {BLACK}Build railway tunnel:{}Underground passage for rail vehicles. Tunnel entryways can only be placed on sloped land at the same height level. A preview will be displayed if a trajectory is possible. Shift+Click shows estimated cost without purchase
00:06:58 <FLHerne> Because in some cases the second line may not always exist
00:07:01 <milek7> actually, 'at the same level' is misleading too
00:07:16 <FLHerne> And you can't end a sentence with a colon :P
00:07:28 <andythenorth> oh we do the 'caps after colon thing'
00:07:35 <andythenorth> I might have to leave and go to bed :P
00:07:41 <andythenorth> that makes me twitch so much
00:07:52 <andythenorth> not my ditch to die in though
00:08:06 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Drop the "a preview will be displayed" bit, IMO
00:08:37 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, it's sort of important though.
00:08:39 <FLHerne> It's obvious when you use the tool
00:08:56 <FLHerne> Also, "entryways" and possibly "trajectory" aren't the right word
00:09:20 <mcbanhas> path could work instead of trajectory
00:09:47 <Yexo> Tunnel entryways can only be placed on sloped land at the same height level <- same height level as what? (I understand the intend, but that could be written better)
00:09:56 <FLHerne> entryways -> entrances, and I still don't think 'trajectory' is useful
00:10:07 <Yexo> Both tunnel exits must be on sloped land at the same height level. ?
00:10:15 <FLHerne> I think in some cases the indicated path can be impossible anyway?
00:10:33 <mcbanhas> Sort of a glass half full :p
00:10:37 <mcbanhas> I see entries, not exits
00:10:39 <FLHerne> If the other end is sloped wrong, or one corner of an intermediate tile is too low
00:10:57 <FLHerne> Definitely "entrances"
00:11:29 <mcbanhas> entryways is a bit more specific for a tunnel though, don't you think?
00:11:37 <FLHerne> We're on the outside, so it's not an exit, and 'entries' is just wrong
00:12:00 <FLHerne> A tunnel can *be* an entryway
00:12:16 <FLHerne> But the entrances of a tunnel aren't entryways
00:14:27 <FLHerne> Hm, if we spend this long bikeshedding each string, we'll be done just after the mandatory re-education to speak Chinese
00:14:59 <mcbanhas> It will be faster on the submission itself
00:15:06 <mcbanhas> strings can be commented for that purpose
00:15:31 <mcbanhas> Moreover, I would like you specifically to do a full review before I even submit a final version.
00:15:46 <FLHerne> Anyway, it's kind of late, so I'll sleep in a minute
00:17:40 <mcbanhas> Yexo, I'll send a reply to your questions in a moment.
00:18:38 <mcbanhas> you want string examples too?
00:20:42 <Yexo> if you have them without too much work, that would be nice
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00:25:30 <mcbanhas> Yexo, what I've been trying to say for a long time is that reviewing strings is actually fairly easy, and with a style guide, it shouldn't take more than 2 hours to do the whole thing, even in a rickety .txt file :p
00:25:38 <mcbanhas> Large commits only seem scary if they're code.
00:26:06 <mcbanhas> I'll fish some examples easily
00:27:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8130: Fix #8119: Update docking area when clearing a shore rail tile https://git.io/JfWkv
00:28:52 <Yexo> mcbanhas: You've been very clear in that, I simply disagree. The literal size is almost completely unimportant (for both text and code). The 'semantic diff size' matters way more.
00:29:19 <Yexo> Some 1-line changes (for both text and code) can take a very long time to review/discuss, while other massive (measures in lines) changes can be trivial to review
00:29:50 <Yexo> Make sure all tooltips end in a dot for example might be a very large change, but trivial to review. For that kind of change I don't object to size at all
00:30:31 <mcbanhas> The problem is combining that with a full string re-write simultaneously.
00:30:39 <Yexo> Removing all gender bias from existing strings might lead to much more discussion on the proper term to use in various strings. That's something I don't want to rush through reviewing
00:30:52 <mcbanhas> There's little to no gender bias actually
00:31:31 <mcbanhas> I can send you my current edit for you to have an idea
00:31:57 <mcbanhas> No, that's very outdated
00:32:11 <mcbanhas> I'll upload the .txt file
00:33:19 <Yexo> Not going to review that now.
00:33:55 <Yexo> Breaking it up in smaller chunks will be helpful for review anyway. I'd much rather spend 8 times 15 minutes than 1 time 2 hours, especially if there are comments in between that need resolving/another round of review
00:33:57 <mcbanhas> No need to. You can just have a look to have an idea or put the .lg in game
00:38:43 <milek7> know any good VCS with native support for big files?
00:39:06 <milek7> SVN is sort-of fine, but quite anachronistic
00:41:38 <LordAro> milek7: how big is big?
00:42:05 <LordAro> and if we're talking text files, i'm not sure there's any significant limit
00:42:54 <LordAro> i've not really looked into it personally
00:43:08 <LordAro> other than that, svn works fine really
00:43:08 <Yexo> Was about to suggest that
00:43:18 <milek7> I'm probably doing it wrong, but lfs seems clunky to me
00:43:38 <milek7> you have to decide which extensions store normally and which on lfs
00:44:00 <milek7> and generally a hassle if somebody commits big file without lfs
00:45:03 <Yexo> Can't say anything about the clunky, but that last situation should be preventable with some git hooks
00:45:38 <LordAro> assuming you can feasibly enforce git hooks
01:00:54 <milek7> is there any webinterface providing pull request-like facility for SVN?
01:01:36 <mcbanhas> I hope this answers everything
01:05:58 <Yexo> STR_COMPANY_LEAGUE_PERFORMANCE_TITLE_CHAIRMAN :Chair
01:05:58 <Yexo> <- if we're doing this we should do it properly and rename the string as well: STR_COMPANY_LEAGUE_PERFORMANCE_TITLE_CHAIR
01:06:29 <Yexo> Thanks a lot for your (very extensive!) answers
01:07:28 <mcbanhas> renaming strings would definitely break translations, I wouldn't recommend that.
01:07:37 <Yexo> I'm not sure I like the "future proofing" sections, since extra rules is extra overhead when translating, and if they're not used this overhead is wasted. Then again, I won't object to them
01:07:47 <Yexo> mcbanhas: We can rename the string in all languages without translators having to do anything
01:07:57 <mcbanhas> Oh that's lovely then
01:08:18 <mcbanhas> There would be some more renames required as p/ my current edits though
01:08:34 <mcbanhas> some tools I rewrote or simplified the name which differs from the string
01:08:39 <mcbanhas> I can give you an example
01:09:01 <Yexo> Definitely don't do string renames at the same time, we can do them afterwards or first
01:09:22 <mcbanhas> orig: STR_TOOLTIP_WINDOW_TITLE_DRAG_THIS :{BLACK}Window title - drag this to move window
01:09:50 <mcbanhas> change: STR_TOOLTIP_WINDOW_TITLE_DRAG_THIS :{BLACK}Drag window
01:10:47 <Yexo> For a case like that I think it's less relevant to rename the string
01:10:59 <Yexo> We can do so, but even if we don't the name is still clear enough
01:35:35 <mcbanhas> Yexo anything else you would like to ask me?
01:36:06 <Yexo> Not now, thanks. Maybe later when reviewing your changes, but so far this looks good
01:38:02 <mcbanhas> Ok glad to know, I'm assuming you have reviewing privileges yourself then? Would you be fine if where to do a partial submission as suggested by niels?
01:38:20 <mcbanhas> Would you have a volume or segment in mind?
01:40:01 <Yexo> I do, and I'm happy to review if I have the time. Having said that, I explicitly do not want to commit to this now since I have no clue how much time I'll have over the next few weeks
01:40:37 <mcbanhas> Alright, that is fair enough.
01:42:05 <Yexo> As for volume: I'd suggest to start with a batch of max 100 strings or so.
01:42:26 <Yexo> That should give a decent indication how much work it is
01:42:48 <Yexo> If you only have everything in one large file, it can be as simple as only taking the first 100 changes lines
02:02:53 <mcbanhas> Ok, thanks for the tip
02:19:53 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8130: Fix #8119: Update docking area when clearing a shore rail tile https://git.io/JfWt8
02:20:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #8130: Fix #8119: Update docking area when clearing a shore rail tile https://git.io/JfWtu
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03:05:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Andrew350 opened issue #8131: Missing bounding boxes for bridge pillars of height 1 cause graphical glitches https://git.io/JfWqh
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05:03:12 <TooTallTyler> Hello everyone. I'm having trouble with NML and have been directed here. I'm trying to create an error message if my house set is loaded on Sub-Arctic climate, since it doesn't have any snow sprites. I can only get the message to appear when I set the level to FATAL -- nothing happens at lower settings. I'd still like it to load, but warn players that the climate is not supported. What am I doing wrong?
05:03:32 <TooTallTyler> Here is the code, which appears immediately after the grf block:
05:03:33 <TooTallTyler> if (climate == CLIMATE_ARCTIC)
05:03:33 <TooTallTyler> {error(FATAL, string(ERROR_REQUIRE_TEMPERATE));}
05:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> TooTallTyler: lower level error messages get displayed in the NewGRF window, not as a red box
05:40:39 <TooTallTyler> Thanks. Is there any way to show the player a pop-up error while still loading the NewGRF?
05:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
05:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, "missing snow sprites" would qualify as a "warning" level severity in my view
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06:00:15 <TooTallTyler> Does anyone know a better way to check for the presence of a nearby house class than a cascade of switch blocks? Some type of loop maybe? "nearest_house_matching_criterion" would be ideal if we could define a different class or ID, but it's limited to the same as the item making the check. Here's what I've got for low-density houses to keep them from building near office buildings (class 2):
06:00:22 <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_8, nearby_tile_house_class(-1,-1)){258: return 0;return 1;}
06:00:22 <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_7, nearby_tile_house_class(-1,1)) {258: return 0;office_space_8;}
06:00:22 <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_6, nearby_tile_house_class(-1,0)) {258: return 0;office_space_7;}
06:00:22 <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_5, nearby_tile_house_class(1,-1)) {258: return 0;office_space_6;}
06:00:22 <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_4, nearby_tile_house_class(1,1)) {258: return 0;office_space_5;}
06:00:23 <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_3, nearby_tile_house_class(1,0)) {258: return 0;office_space_4;}
06:00:24 <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_2, nearby_tile_house_class(0,-1)) {258: return 0;office_space_3;}
06:00:26 <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_1, nearby_tile_house_class(0,1)) {258: return 0;office_space_2;}
06:00:53 <TooTallTyler> Super ugly, and I want to expand the radius but the code starts to get ridiculous
06:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> please never paste so many lines into a chat, use a pastebin
06:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. paste.openttdcoop.org
06:02:32 <TooTallTyler> Will do. I'm new to IRC and coding in general.
06:06:52 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8132: Crash on loading savegame from #4524 (station related) https://git.io/JfW3t
06:06:58 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i can't really help you with houses. in general, NewGRFs have no concept of "loops", but the game occasionally uses a concept called "circular tile loop" (where "circle" means "square", on account of using max-distance instead of euclidean)
06:14:46 <TooTallTyler> I think that's what nearest_house_matching criterion uses, since I define a radius. But it appears to let me search for only houses which match this house's ID, building_class, or GRFID -- unlike nearby_tile_house_class which lets me define a different class.
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09:47:05 <andythenorth> so Better Living Through Chemistry
09:47:41 <andythenorth> do I do the existing fill-the-oceans-with-plastic-from-crude-oil-sources-but-life-is-good
09:48:15 <andythenorth> or the emerging-we-really-have-not-scaled-it-yet-recycling-and-bio-plastics-but-life-could-be-better
10:07:59 <nielsm> make two parameters to the grf, "peak oil year" and "recycling transition period in years"
10:09:40 <nielsm> to control when recycling centers begin being built, when new oil extraction industries stop being built, and the output curves of extraction industries
10:09:57 <nielsm> and something with use of fossil fuels as well
10:10:28 <nielsm> that would probably function best as a separate grf, not integrated in FIRS
10:12:44 <andythenorth> parameters exist at one level of depth only currently :)
10:12:59 <andythenorth> so parameters for a specific economy would be clunky in the UI
10:13:16 <nielsm> that's why it would be best as a separate GRF
10:13:17 <andythenorth> and parametric parameters is probably A Bad Idea :)
10:13:42 <andythenorth> 2 economies: Better Living Through Chemistry, Even Better Living Through Chemistry :P
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10:15:07 <nielsm> could have one of them only allow extraction to be built during worldgen and use the "production only decreases" rule (or have a limited supply)
10:15:41 <nielsm> hm that could be interesting :D have a limited supply of raw material, which needs to be recycled for any industry to function at all
10:16:15 <nielsm> any cargo deleted is just industry potential lost forever
10:16:56 <andythenorth> move it in and out of town storage :P
10:17:09 <andythenorth> so towns have a fixed weight / volume of cargo in play
10:17:26 <andythenorth> which can be extracted by the industries in the town area
10:17:51 <nielsm> teach players to not sell trains with cargo on board
10:18:00 <nielsm> nor let those station ratings drop
10:22:56 <andythenorth> arbitrary newgrf regions :|
10:23:04 <andythenorth> that was an idea we haven't pursued :)
10:24:42 <andythenorth> define regions, with circular cargo amounts in them
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10:28:33 <nielsm> maybe stick to simple regions defined by a capital city and the region of a tile is just defined by the nearest capital
10:30:52 <nielsm> add a context for newgrf variables that is "region" rather than "town"
10:36:33 <andythenorth> I would like industry storage on whole-map, regions, and per town
10:37:00 <andythenorth> and utility monthly cb that runs over each once every n ticks
10:37:08 <andythenorth> monthly / n ticks
10:40:08 <nielsm> make global storage a hashtable, possibly indexed two levels, by four character codes
10:40:26 <nielsm> and let it be shared between newgrfs (and potentially also GS)
10:41:14 <nielsm> or have a private and a public global storage
10:41:43 <andythenorth> pandemic: global oil production falls :P
10:42:07 <andythenorth> 1000t plastic delivered to town, fishing grounds production falls 10%
10:43:02 <andythenorth> maybe I should just write a GS that is generated by the FIRS compile
10:43:10 <andythenorth> and teach it to reverse engineer which industry is which
10:43:28 <andythenorth> and automate uploading both to Bananas at once
10:43:46 <andythenorth> can GS depend on specific versions of specific grf?
10:44:06 <nielsm> GS can't check for GRFs at all, iirc
10:44:20 <nielsm> apart from indirect stuff like whether a specific cargo label exists
10:44:27 <nielsm> or specific industry exists
10:48:59 <andythenorth> maybe I could put a key industry in, that doesn't build, but GS can find
10:49:13 <andythenorth> with 16 cargos in and 16 out, how many UUIDs can I generate?
10:51:29 <andythenorth> oh also how many combinations of label? :)
10:51:35 <andythenorth> quite a lot of UUIDs?
10:51:49 <andythenorth> so I could force GS to depend on a very specific FIRS industry
10:51:59 <nielsm> I don't think there's really a requirement that labels are printable characters
10:52:09 <nielsm> or valid UTF8 or anythiung
10:52:43 <andythenorth> it will appear in cargo flow etc though
10:52:51 <andythenorth> so it needs to be actually a valid cargo :)
10:54:12 <andythenorth> probably enough that I could semver
11:20:10 <andythenorth> plastics industry has start date issue :P
11:20:36 <andythenorth> hydrocarbon-derived plastics are really 1950s onwards :P
11:23:28 <nielsm> transport fever (2) doesn't really pay attention to that at all
11:23:39 <nielsm> you can build oil->plastics industry in 1850
11:23:54 <andythenorth> Steeltown has electric arc furnace with no date restriction
11:24:29 <nielsm> just put it in the readme, "if you want realism don't start the game before 1950"
11:25:00 <andythenorth> I did try restricting some industries, but it's one extra level of frustration :)
11:25:07 <andythenorth> it doesn't make a pleasing game
11:27:02 <nielsm> many players don't pay attention to the year anyway, just keep building for thousands of years
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14:22:30 <Wolf01> andythenorth, how is going there?
14:25:12 <Wolf01> Hmm, is Russia trying to reach USA and battle for the first position? Is this a sort of a pity race?
14:28:11 <andythenorth> Wolf01 is going acceptably
14:29:34 <andythenorth> I am confused about lunch though
14:29:43 <andythenorth> somebody un-quit peter pls
14:30:16 <Wolf01> You have my permission to get lunch
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14:42:55 <_dp_> Wolf01, if you mean covid russia just does a lot of testing, on deaths (and so actual infection spread) it's way behind
14:43:50 <mcbanhas> frosch123, can you tell me again what was the problem with adding a period by the end of certain message prompts? I'm not sure I quite understood it how can that lead to inconsistencies with mods.
14:46:29 <DorpsGek> Samu: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
14:59:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #136: Fix #112: Remove version updating from release tarballs. https://git.io/JfWz2
15:00:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Fix #112: Remove version updating from release tarballs. https://git.io/JfWz2
15:01:12 <FLHerne> blathijs: Can you test if ^ solves your problem?
15:03:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #115: Fix #112: use setuptools_scm to determine version https://git.io/JfWzQ
15:05:30 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: The text in prompts can be provided by a NewGRF
15:06:06 <FLHerne> For example, "Can't build here... This text is from a grf"
15:07:11 <mcbanhas> Do we have any examples where that is happening right now?
15:07:28 <nielsm> I think some ECS industries may be doing that
15:07:44 <nielsm> they can have some very particular construction requirements
15:09:32 <mcbanhas> Hmm, if it's just a couple of mods, then it's a very minor trade off. But if you know of any other examples, I'd like to see.
15:09:54 <FLHerne> FIRS industries have misc. requirements too
15:10:23 <FLHerne> But yes, it's not something that people see much
15:10:46 <mcbanhas> FIRS is in active development, we can just tell the guys to add a period at the end xD
15:12:02 <frosch123> mind that the different text colours in the description of ottd and newgrf settings is a bug in ottd :)
15:12:09 <frosch123> not the fault of the addons
15:12:09 <mcbanhas> Hahaha that's hilarious, their vehicle list cmds are compatible with my changes
15:12:20 <mcbanhas> but not with the original game
15:12:57 <mcbanhas> All original TTD text in vehicle list is using title capitalization, but their mod is using sentence.
15:14:26 <mcbanhas> And this is also an example of how mods aren't necessarily consistent with current OpenTTD text.
15:14:34 <frosch123> mcbanhas: i would claim that title/sentence capitalisation is only noticed by trained eyes
15:14:55 <FLHerne> Really bad idea: {PERIOD_IF_MISSING} tag :P
15:15:15 <FLHerne> Replaced by "." if the previous character wasn't "."
15:15:38 <mcbanhas> I would claim a period could go just as unnoticed, perhaps even less
15:15:40 <FLHerne> (or was alphanumeric, because ?. would look silly)
15:15:41 <frosch123> FLHerne: don't patronise add-on authors. they really don't like that
15:15:50 <mcbanhas> The point is, it's already inconsistent.
15:16:05 <mcbanhas> Because mods aren't following any rules.
15:16:07 <FLHerne> frosch123: It would be to solve compatibility with existing grfs
15:16:30 <FLHerne> Maybe _IF_ABSENT would upset them less
15:17:42 <mcbanhas> But tbh I was considered relaxing the rule for periods because of "Vehicle is getting old" messages
15:18:58 <mcbanhas> I'm not sure if a period would go well here
15:21:59 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I think I proposed "period if more than one sentence" before
15:22:28 <FLHerne> The problem without trailing periods is when there's one in the middle of the string
15:23:04 <mcbanhas> That's not a bad idea
15:24:06 <mcbanhas> It would solve woes regarding the use of periods and everybody would get a slice of the cake.
15:24:44 <nielsm> if there's more than one sentence, always a trailing period
15:25:07 <nielsm> if only one sentence, trailing period is optional but recommended if other strings in same context end with period
15:25:52 <mcbanhas> That settles the matter then, I'll write it in.
15:26:36 <FLHerne> I guess the risk is it just ends up looking inconsistent
15:26:56 <FLHerne> But I think it should be ok
15:34:03 <mcbanhas> I'm gonna word it the following way "paragraphs consisting of more than one sentence will always end in a period"
15:34:25 <mcbanhas> *period or an end-of-sentence mark
15:50:23 <LordAro> TrueBrain: mild reminder poke regarding 20.04 compilefarm/OTTD PRs
15:51:09 <michi_cc> Did somebody fix ICU layout for Linux yet?
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15:52:29 <LordAro> it's basically just dead code at this point
16:01:18 <trainathon> LordAro, if it is dead code is it dnot a good idea to remove the code?
16:02:11 <LordAro> that provides useful functionality that hasn't been replaced by anything
16:03:43 <trainathon> ok, that i interpret that wrong
16:04:25 <TrueBrain> LordAro: pretty sure others can approve those PRs too :P
16:04:34 <TrueBrain> I am surprised glx hasn't approved them yet :P
16:09:57 <mcbanhas> Little controversial change. I'd like to change "Game Options" to just "Options"
16:10:48 <mcbanhas> Because "Settings" is just that, not "Game Settings"
16:12:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8133: Fix: Stop any gamelog action when recovering from SlError() https://git.io/JfWaZ
16:15:11 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I agree, but it's still not clear why/how "Options" and "Settings" are different
16:15:22 <Eddi|zuHause> mcbananas we spent years renaming away from "patch settings"
16:15:44 <FLHerne> Of course, I don't think anyone knows that...
16:15:55 <frosch123> mcbanhas: good look explaining people where to find settings if you call them "options" and "settings"
16:16:06 <_dp_> finally an ubuntu update that fixes more than it breaks xD
16:16:09 <frosch123> at least "game options" has a word in front to make it distinct
16:16:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8127: Add: [AzurePipelines] Ubuntu Focal (20.04) build for releases https://git.io/JfWa4
16:28:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Fix #112: Remove version updating from release tarballs. https://git.io/JfWz2
16:30:20 <mcbanhas> "Unmark all contents for download" perhaps?
16:31:58 <FLHerne> But "Unmark...for" is weird
16:33:39 <LordAro> "Deselect all content previously selected for download"
16:33:53 <LordAro> it's a tooltip, so no issues with length
16:34:05 <FLHerne> I think s/Mark/Select/ everywhere
16:34:17 <FLHerne> Using two different verbs for the same action is confusing
16:34:18 <LordAro> or probably unselect, for consistency with the button
16:34:37 <FLHerne> No, make it Deselect and change the button :P
16:35:05 <mcbanhas> The button is "unselect all"
16:35:10 <FLHerne> [15:34][9999][flh ~/]$ isword unselect -> 'unselect' is not a word!
16:36:27 <mcbanhas> I'd rather use unmark because of this
16:36:29 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION :{BLACK}Select upgrades
16:36:29 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Mark all content that is an upgrade for existing content to be downloaded
16:36:34 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Change all instances of "Mark" to "Select", and all uses of "Unmark" or "Unselect" to "Deselect"
16:37:08 <FLHerne> That's exactly the wrong reasoning IMO
16:37:14 <mcbanhas> Mark/Unmark is a simpler word than select/deselect
16:38:08 <FLHerne> In the context of computers, "Select" is the definitive word for that action
16:39:08 <mcbanhas> That's the point. Computer language sounds a bit too mechanical to always use select this, select that
16:39:26 <FLHerne> "Mark" is less clear on its own, and much less clear when "select" is also used to describe the same action
16:39:52 <FLHerne> "Select that" is what it does
16:40:49 <FLHerne> Everyone instantly, intuitively knows what "select" in a list does, probably without even reading the word properly
16:41:25 <FLHerne> I see "mark", and suddenly I have to figure out what "marking" does
16:41:36 <FLHerne> Only to find out that it just meant "select" anyway
16:41:56 <LordAro> mcbanhas: you wanted some native English speakers opinion on this before, maybe you should listen :)
16:42:07 <FLHerne> I mean, I know what "mark" means *in general*
16:42:46 <FLHerne> But in the specific context of a list, "select" has the deeper meaning "choose a set of items to perform an action on"
16:42:48 <mcbanhas> Yeah, but most package managers I'm familiar with use the term "Mark"
16:43:08 <FLHerne> Most Linux package managers are written by weird technical people
16:43:29 <FLHerne> (as was the OTTD content downloader)
16:43:52 <FLHerne> It has exactly the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve
16:43:54 <LordAro> "Mark for removal/purge" reads better in that context, imo
16:44:43 <mcbanhas> That's sort of the thing. Marking implies making a list of stuff to apply later
16:45:02 <mcbanhas> selecting implies picking one more frequently than picking multiple
16:45:26 <mcbanhas> But the thing is that you can select multiple packages in bananas
16:45:27 <FLHerne> "Mark" implies the wrong sort of 'later', IMO
16:46:21 <FLHerne> "select" is used almost universally for multiple items too
16:46:38 <LordAro> yes, you don't mark from a list
16:46:41 <LordAro> you select from a list
16:46:43 <FLHerne> I mark emails as read, or store bookmarks
16:46:54 <FLHerne> To mark something is at least semi-persistent
16:47:56 <FLHerne> beyond just a modal step in the middle of an action
16:48:39 <mcbanhas> so how do we redo "Mark all content to be not downloaded" again?
16:49:01 <FLHerne> <LordAro> "Deselect all content previously selected for download"
16:49:45 <FLHerne> No, "unselect" isn't a word and we should get rid of it :P
16:52:29 <LordAro> i'm thinking of the translator workload again
16:52:48 <LordAro> lots of changes all at once will mean that changes get missed
16:53:19 <mcbanhas> LordAro, I think I can submit all of the isolated capitalization changes first actually
16:53:42 <mcbanhas> So the rewrites can then be handled separately
16:54:51 <mcbanhas> I mean those rewrites will have capitalization changes of their own, but then it will be much easier
16:55:09 <mcbanhas> and I will leave all punctuation changes to the very last end
16:55:53 <FLHerne> LordAro: I suggested to make the translator ignore the relevant megachanges altogether, do you think that would be sane/feasible?
16:56:05 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_MATRIX_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Click on a line to see the details{}Click on the checkbox to select it for downloading
16:56:05 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION :{BLACK}Select all
16:56:05 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Mark all content to be downloaded
16:56:05 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION :{BLACK}Select upgrades
16:56:05 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Mark all content that is an upgrade for existing content to be downloaded
16:56:08 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION :{BLACK}Unselect all
16:56:10 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Mark all content to be not downloaded
16:56:26 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_MATRIX_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Click on a package to see the details. Check the box to select it for download
16:56:26 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION :{BLACK}Select all
16:56:26 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Select all content to be downloaded
16:56:26 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION :{BLACK}Select upgrades
16:56:27 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Select all upgrades for existing content to be downloaded
16:56:30 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION :{BLACK}Deselect all
16:56:32 <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Deselect all content previously selected for download
16:56:36 <FLHerne> Since there are no actual semantic changes intended, there shouldn't be a need to force retranslations
16:56:40 <LordAro> you must use a pastebin for this
16:56:41 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Please don't do that
16:56:53 <mcbanhas> sorry I'll use pastebin next time
16:56:57 <LordAro> anything more than 3 lines is just irritating
16:57:54 <mcbanhas> It's been a while since I used IRC frequently. I forgot flooding was a think
16:58:11 <LordAro> "Select all available upgrades for previously downloaded content" ?
16:58:43 <Markk> FLHerne: Why is it bad?
16:58:47 <glx> we used to use ottdcoop pastebin but it's broken
16:59:02 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Most clients have a setting to prevent accidentally pasting too much
17:00:34 <LordAro> yeah, STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP definitely still awkward
17:00:45 <FLHerne> Markk: requires (ed?) JS, big nasty ads
17:01:06 <FLHerne> tracking cookies, social media tracking crap, just no
17:01:29 <Markk> FLHerne: Aha, okey. Nothing I've noticed, but I'm blocking third party cookies and have an adblocker.
17:01:46 <Markk> But sure, probably valid reason.s
17:02:16 <mcbanhas> what about just "select all package upgrades for download"?
17:02:33 <mcbanhas> or "all content upgrades"
17:02:41 <FLHerne> Nothing else uses 'package'
17:03:17 <LordAro> "content item", perhaps?
17:03:40 <LordAro> oh, not in the upgrade tooltip
17:03:41 <FLHerne> Oh, one of the tooltips does
17:04:09 <mcbanhas> I changed "line" to package on the first one
17:04:11 <FLHerne> LordAro: Everything else just says "select all content to ...",
17:05:26 <FLHerne> "Select all upgrades to previously-downloaded content" ?
17:05:46 <LordAro> "Select all available upgrades for previously downloaded content" ?
17:06:08 <mcbanhas> Those are all very long and complex
17:06:15 <FLHerne> Yours is nicer, but I still think s/for/to/
17:07:05 <mcbanhas> "Select all content upgrades for download" keep it short and sweet
17:07:11 <FLHerne> Oh, did you change updates->upgrades?
17:07:48 <FLHerne> Presumably someone did, given the string names :P
17:07:56 <mcbanhas> Although I'd prefer "Select all package upgrades for download" because I want to keep it consistent with STR_CONTENT_MATRIX_TOOLTIP
17:08:20 <mcbanhas> I can change upgrades to updates
17:08:22 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Introducing the term "package" isn't helpful IMO
17:08:39 <FLHerne> There's too much random jargon already
17:08:56 <FLHerne> (yes, it's familiar to Linux users, but no-one else)
17:12:07 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I do like "Select all content updates for download"
17:12:13 <FLHerne> It's clear and to the point
17:13:08 <mcbanhas> what's STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP for?
17:13:14 <mcbanhas> can't find the button for that
17:13:35 <LordAro> when joining a MP game, you get the option to download all missing GRFs
17:14:09 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: STR_MATRIX_TOOLTIP should have a period? Multiple sentences ;-)
17:15:02 <mcbanhas> I'm leaving punctuation for a final commit
17:15:13 <mcbanhas> Bc I haven't done it yet
17:15:26 <mcbanhas> and it's easy to do once all rewrites are approved
17:16:41 <mcbanhas> To be perfectly honest, I think we should eventually remove a lot of the tooltips. Many are highly redundant.
17:16:44 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Hm, you have "to be downloaded" vs "for download"
17:17:03 <mcbanhas> I assume it's a lot of work though, bc I think they're tied to specific menu code
17:17:03 <FLHerne> Just use "for download" in select-all
17:17:27 <LordAro> mcbanhas: you're quite welcome to do so :p
17:17:52 <mcbanhas> LordAro, I would, if it was a matter of just eliminating strings. turns out it's not.
17:18:15 <LordAro> just involves a very minor amount of code changes
17:18:24 <LordAro> which is basically just finding the code and removing it
17:19:22 <mcbanhas> I'll open an issue ticket in the future then.
17:20:53 <FLHerne> LordAro: It might be better to improve the tooltip code so it just does nothing if the string is empty
17:21:08 <FLHerne> That way it doesn't potentially break other translations
17:21:35 <Yexo> FLHerne: Then we have english language strings that are empty but do have a translations
17:21:56 <FLHerne> English is a fairly compact language, I can imagine there being cases where the meaning would fit in a sane English button text but not some other language
17:22:09 <LordAro> yeah, the language code would have to be completely rewritten for that to work
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17:22:44 <Yexo> If there are cases like that we could consider it, but that doesn't solve the issue of "I think these tooltips are redundant and should be removed"
17:22:49 <Yexo> If we remove them, we should do so for all languages
17:23:08 <mcbanhas> That would also make translation less tedious
17:23:13 <mcbanhas> less lines, quicker job
17:23:40 <FLHerne> Yexo: I mean, the tooltip could be redundant in English but not other languages, depending on exactly what the button text says
17:26:04 <Yexo> If we find such cases we can solve that, for now I'd assume those don't exists to make everyones live easier
17:26:55 <mcbanhas> That's more of a matter of selecting only purely redundant ones like "Game Options: Diplay game options"
17:27:49 <mcbanhas> We could rewrite redundancies to actually include useful info
17:28:10 <mcbanhas> But ah well, I'm getting ahea of myself
17:29:14 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: A tooltip that actually explained why "Game Options" are distinct from "Settings" would be helpful and non-redundant there
17:29:46 <mcbanhas> Got a suggestion? I can type it in right now
17:29:57 <FLHerne> Nope, no-one knows :P
17:30:09 <LordAro> there would have to be an actual distinction first :p
17:30:23 <LordAro> other than TTD-ish settings & OTTD settings
17:30:34 <FLHerne> "Because there was always a second settings page, and unspecified hypothetical people would complain if they were merged"
17:31:30 <mcbanhas> Well I think the main distinction is that settings are advanced customization options
17:32:02 <FLHerne> The settings already have a basic/advanced/expert selector though
17:32:05 <mcbanhas> and they apply specifically to game mechanics, etc
17:32:24 <mcbanhas> Options include base level stuff like application language, graphics, resolution
17:32:24 <nielsm> town names is the most odd one out in Game Options
17:32:30 <nielsm> since that affects worldgen
17:32:44 <FLHerne> Oh, I forgot the really daft thing that there's a "Game settings" category in Settings
17:33:14 <FLHerne> Which is, of course, completely different from the "Game options"
17:33:34 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Town names really ought to be in the World Generation dialog
17:33:42 <frosch123> FLHerne: "settings" contains all ottd settings (not add-ons), "game options" contains those that were to difficult to add to "settings" due to very custom layout or logic
17:34:19 <FLHerne> frosch123: Aah, the traditional Unix implementation-driven UI :D
17:34:47 <frosch123> FLHerne: we got already rid of new settings and difficulty settings
17:35:01 <frosch123> removing game options is on the agenda for 10 years, it's just very hard
17:35:10 <FLHerne> frosch123: True, I remember when it was worse
17:35:23 <FLHerne> The new Settings page is really nice
17:36:02 <mcbanhas> What about "Customize advanced gameplay features" for the settings tooltip?
17:36:24 <Yexo> "Transparency options" is yet another one
17:36:35 <LordAro> mcbanhas: just leave it as is for now
17:36:40 <mcbanhas> And for options "Change basic game parameters"
17:38:01 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Sorry, my fault
17:50:26 <FLHerne> I think we should merge that, or yours, or neither, and release 0.5.1 imminently?
17:50:29 <mcbanhas> Any idea where can I find STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_CLIENTS_CAPTION_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Clients online / clients max{}Companies online / companies max
17:50:48 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Multiplayer server list?
17:51:16 <mcbanhas> it's a tooltip for one of the separators
17:51:18 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: It's the tooltip of the "Clients" header in the table
17:52:07 <FLHerne> Oh, I should finish poking the industry example
18:02:14 <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_ADVERTISED :{BLACK}Advertised
18:02:14 <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_ADVERTISED_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Choose between an advertised (internet) and a not advertised (Local Area Network, LAN) game
18:02:28 <mcbanhas> This is a very weird formulation for a dropdown menu IMO
18:03:40 <mcbanhas> So Local/Internet as options
18:04:12 <mcbanhas> and then the tooltip explains, play a local game, or advertise it on the internet
18:04:36 <mcbanhas> Although tbh it's self explanatory, everyoe knows what connection type is this days
18:04:55 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Because that's not technically accurate ;-)
18:05:17 <FLHerne> You can join a non-advertised game over the internet, assuming port-forwarding etc.
18:05:26 <FLHerne> It just doesn't appear in the server list
18:11:29 <_dp_> FLHerne, but confusing af :p
18:11:48 <_dp_> I've seen ppl think there aren't any mp servers because of that
18:13:38 <LordAro> _dp_: that was changed for 1.10 i believe
18:14:50 <_dp_> LordAro, wow, looks like it indeed
18:15:14 <_dp_> I though it's impossible because of security whatever thing :p
18:15:56 <FLHerne> LordAro: 1.9.2 it seems
18:16:50 <LordAro> well then, even earlier
18:16:56 <LordAro> _dp_ has no excuse at all
18:17:37 <_dp_> LordAro, it was like that for 15 years or smth :p
18:18:19 <_dp_> well, I guess it was ok for first 10-ish when it was called lan/internet xD
18:23:02 <_dp_> oh wow, first tech GS it seems
18:25:28 <andythenorth> how does it work?
18:25:49 <_dp_> but I probably know one bug :p
18:26:17 <andythenorth> hmm, I'll need to merge it with Busy Bee
18:26:55 <_dp_> would be if someone can check whether availability stays with ccmpany id after reset as I think it is
18:27:02 <_dp_> coz idk when I'll get to it myself
18:28:01 * andythenorth wonders when ultimate GS will be made
18:28:07 <andythenorth> all the current GS combined
18:29:09 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's already made by btpro for the most part
18:30:19 <_dp_> at least afaik they run same gs on all servers
18:30:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs. https://git.io/JfWop
18:34:05 * _dp_ never been so happy getting a desync
18:34:30 <Yexo> do you know what action caused it?
18:34:40 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, on most game lobby menus I recall, "Internet" always tends to mean a game listed on a master server
18:34:40 <_dp_> looking into it right now
18:35:06 <mcbanhas> Even if we don't use this specific nomenclature, this menu is quite confusing
18:35:38 <mcbanhas> I'm gonna leave the strings as is and file an issue
18:36:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs. https://git.io/JfWKa
18:38:21 <nielsm> I agree that changing the server browser to "game type: internet/local" will be an improvement over "advertised: yes/no"
18:38:41 <nielsm> the create server menu should probably then be "advertise internet game: yes/no" though
18:39:12 <_dp_> Yexo, desync seems to be quite consistent you can try joining citymania test server yourself
18:42:22 <_dp_> only client action: 4055150 153 255 COMPANY_CTRL (80) 0 153 0
18:42:40 <_dp_> and ppl on the server stay connected
18:45:24 <Yexo> that command doesn't matter, the gamestate is already problematic (but synced to existing clients)
18:45:40 <Yexo> at this point just joining leads to a desync
18:47:30 <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_ADD_SERVER :{BLACK}Add server
18:47:31 <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_ADD_SERVER_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Adds a server to the list which will always be checked for running games
18:47:46 <Yexo> Which means there is some state on the server that doesn't make it into the savegame but is still relevant for the gameloop
18:47:47 <mcbanhas> this is basically "Add to favourites" right?
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18:48:22 <Yexo> mcbanhas: Not really, it'll ask you for an IP address
18:48:51 <_dp_> Yexo, sometimes it fails with (wrong company in DoCommand) msg instead of desync, mb related
18:48:58 <Yexo> Which then afterwards will always list the feature even without querying the server master list
18:49:27 <mcbanhas> Yexo, if I have a server selected it autofills the field with it
18:50:31 <mcbanhas> aww man these are some weird ass options
18:52:14 <_dp_> hmmmmm I have a client connected, I can try to get 2 saves...
18:52:54 <glx> ah I found the error in #8132 savegame, it seems 2 stations from different companies have the same index
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18:57:26 <Yexo> _dp_: I saw an "unnamed" company just a minute ago, now it's gone. Was that removed?
18:57:43 <LordAro> glx: mildly impressive
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18:57:52 <LordAro> close as "corrupt save" ?
18:58:07 <glx> well it should not crash openttd
18:58:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs. https://git.io/JfW6M
19:02:47 <LordAro> glx: ideally yes, but there's many bits of the saveload code that aren't set up to deal with errors like that
19:03:07 <LordAro> the proper solution is probably to replace many asserts with exceptions
19:04:17 <_dp_> Yexo, unnamed is there atm
19:04:39 <_dp_> I managed to pause it and get saves from both sides
19:04:50 <_dp_> is there something to compare saves?
19:05:03 <Yexo> docs/desync*.md has something like that
19:05:22 <_dp_> hm, yeah, 2 unamed in lobby
19:05:27 <_dp_> but only 1 on the server...
19:06:06 <_dp_> ah, nvm, 2 on the server, I'm blind
19:06:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs. https://git.io/JfWz2
19:14:51 <_dp_> server is patched though but shouldn't matter
19:15:22 <_dp_> as I'm pretty sure some non-patched clients stayed in sync just fine
19:17:00 <_dp_> when paused it connects but instantly desyncs when unpaused
19:17:06 <_dp_> which is I guess expected
19:18:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs. https://git.io/JfWz2
19:19:37 <_dp_> though now that I think of it those saves are probably identical
19:20:33 <Yexo> Can you verify that -cmserver.sav as made on the patched server, -cmclient.sav was made on a patched client, -vanilla.sav was made non non-patched client and -vanilla-netsave.sav was made on desync by a non-patched client?
19:21:30 <_dp_> Yexo, yes, unless I accidentally named them incorrectly
19:23:12 <_dp_> patched ones to some stuff in newgrf storage that should be the only difference and doesn't matter as there a non grfs
19:28:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs. https://git.io/JfWz2
19:38:08 <Yexo> _dp_: there is an inconsistency in persistenstorage information between the -cmserver and -cmclient saves
19:38:49 <_dp_> Yexo, that's probably fine, whatever is stored there should not affect the game state anyway
19:41:03 <Yexo> There are also several differences in vehicle information
19:41:37 <_dp_> Yexo, oh, that's interesting...
19:41:52 <_dp_> but how? if it just sends the same save to a client
19:42:48 <_dp_> oh, players could probably change something even if paused...
19:42:50 <Yexo> Was that from a client that was freshly connected during the pause?
19:43:20 <_dp_> Yexo, yes, as freshly as I could
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19:45:49 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:53:56 <Yexo> -netsave is very different. Maybe that one is created one (or a few) ticks later when the desync is actually noticed?
19:55:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8134: Fix #8132: Corrupted savegame crashing OpenTTD on load https://git.io/JfWP2
19:56:21 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
19:56:25 <_dp_> I'm thinking what can I do to actually pinpoint that desync better
19:56:48 <_dp_> those saves are useless as far as I understand as it basically sends the same save over the network
19:56:56 <_dp_> thing that desyncs it is not in the save
19:57:46 <_dp_> if only I could somehow make a save at the same frame it desyncs...
19:58:03 <Yexo> If only we could detect in which frame it desyncs :p
19:58:30 <Yexo> Thing is: the actual desync might have happened hours earlier, impossible to tell without knowing what it is
19:58:51 <_dp_> well, yeah, but at least we'll know where the diff is
19:59:05 <glx> and impossible to add a cache check not knowing what is different
19:59:34 <Yexo> The diff between -cmserver and -vanilla is fairly small
20:00:23 <Yexo> 2 single bytes different in CITY chunk, several differences in AIPL but we can ignore that, and minor differences in the persistent storage
20:02:03 <_dp_> I have command log for some time before the first desync but it's huge
20:02:14 <_dp_> there is like 20 min window where it could've happened
20:02:38 <_dp_> and I don't have log for the whole 20min
20:03:32 <Yexo> If we had a savegame from before those 20 minutes and the whole commandlog since the savegame we could use that
20:03:38 <Yexo> How much data would it be to keep more logs?
20:04:33 <_dp_> hm, actually I have 18 mins of log... but no savegame
20:06:02 <_dp_> Yexo, hard to tell... doesn't use much memory atm so I guess I can increase the log size
20:06:07 <_dp_> or just write it to the file
20:06:38 <_dp_> that desync is quite rare though so who knows how long will it be before it happens again
20:14:44 <Yexo> If I'm reading the diffs of the savegame dumps correctly the diffs for towns is in Town::cargo_accepted
20:15:11 <_dp_> there are less than 2000 frames missing from last known sync
20:16:42 <Yexo> It unfortunately doesn't work that way: a good sync just means that no difference was detected yet
20:16:47 <Yexo> It might have been present already
20:17:22 <_dp_> Yexo, well yeah, but client connected just fine and later everyone just instantly desynced
20:18:17 <Yexo> In this case a good client connect is a good indication the problem hasn't happened yet, fair enough
20:19:42 <frosch123> _dp_: the faster a desync happens after the join, the less likely it is caused by commands
20:20:09 <frosch123> the desync rather happens because the state changes during the save-load cycle.
20:24:10 <_dp_> frosch123, I'm not sure what you mean here but I suspect desync is caused by some caches that aren't in the save
20:24:44 <_dp_> so whoever was connected has one cache and loading save gives another
20:25:28 <frosch123> yes, that is one option, and this was the case with the docktile problem
20:25:46 <frosch123> another option is that loading the save does not initialise everything
20:26:06 <frosch123> variables could be uninitialised and contain whatever was present before
20:26:38 <frosch123> that kind of issue would also differ between compilers and os, maybe some zero-initialise more than others
20:27:22 <FLHerne> But I don't think it can change the state in a relevant way?
20:28:27 <Yexo> That changes _viewport_sign_kdtree only, which is hopeuflly only used in the GUI, not as gamestate
20:28:59 <_dp_> and even if it does it should've just desynced everyone with differentt setting
20:29:29 <frosch123> sign positions also depend on font size :)
20:32:03 <Yexo> Town::cargo_accepted_total and Town::stations_near are marked as NOSAVE. If we moved them to TownCache instead the desync check code would verify them
20:32:23 <Yexo> Before trying that, any reasons that won't work?
20:34:27 <Yexo> _dp_: do you have a link to the patched that are applied to the server?
20:35:24 <_dp_> Yexo, I have repo that I can give you access to, but that's a lot of code
20:35:47 <_dp_> I wonder if I can somehow make it run one frame at a time without restarting the server
20:37:15 <Yexo> Enough for me for today. I think we should add cache checking to the town variables I mentioned earlier, but if the server is that heavily modified I also don't want to invest much more time in this
20:42:52 <_dp_> "To compare savegame more semantically, there exist some ugly hackish tools at:"
20:43:13 <nielsm> maybe we should add that, a way to single-step games (unpause for a single tick)
20:43:15 <_dp_> lol, I guess I have some ugly hackish tools of my own for that xD
20:43:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs. https://git.io/JfW1g
20:43:34 <_dp_> nielsm, yeah, would help
20:43:46 <_dp_> though I probably can pull it off with admin port right now
20:44:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #136: Exclude version update code (fixes #112) and dotfiles from release tarballs. https://git.io/JfWz2
20:44:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne closed pull request #115: Fix #112: use setuptools_scm to determine version https://git.io/Jf3ZN
20:44:35 <FLHerne> "FLHerne closed pull request #115"
20:44:53 <LordAro> i added it to the PR text
20:44:58 <LordAro> so GH would do it automatically
20:45:10 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout https://git.io/JfW1w
20:45:49 <andythenorth> nml release? o_O
20:46:09 * LordAro looks at the nml release process section of the readme
20:46:28 * andythenorth hopes it's accurate
20:46:41 <andythenorth> sooner we unblock authors, sooner they find the next bug :)
20:47:06 <FLHerne> LordAro: I'd like to get #133 in, just editing some stupid produce behaviour
20:47:19 <FLHerne> Having a wrong example for the major new feature is silly
20:47:22 <TrueBrain> in case you guys haven't seen, nightlies failed today: The remote file either doesn't exist, is unauthorized, or is forbidden for url 'http://fossies.org/windows/misc/zip300xn-x64.zip'. Exception calling "GetResponse" with "0" argument(s): "The remote name could not be resolved: 'fossies.org'" <- during Windows vcpkg operations
20:48:47 <LordAro> FLHerne: yeah, i've got to write the changelog first
20:48:55 <LordAro> i'm not going to release immediately
20:49:29 <LordAro> TrueBrain: looks like it's still there
20:49:32 <LordAro> random failure, perhaps?
20:49:45 <TrueBrain> doubtful, both win32 and win64 failed
20:50:13 <TrueBrain> the DNS server is badly responding to AAAA requests
20:50:20 <TrueBrain> as in ... really badly
20:50:50 <TrueBrain> the primary NS is down
20:51:11 <TrueBrain> there are no glue-records :D
20:51:16 <LordAro> what is it used for anyway? windows has zip capabilities built in, doesn't it?
20:52:02 <TrueBrain> yeah, the DNS has no glue-records, so it fails to resolve NS servers .. but it does sometimes work, so it is a bit odd
20:52:04 <milek7> under some powershell magic incantation, maybe it has
20:52:06 <TrueBrain> but someone screwed up :D
20:52:22 <nielsm> I'm not sure windows has any API to handle InfoZip archives
20:52:31 <nielsm> if that's for format the library is for
20:54:08 <nielsm> oh it's an executable package, but still no windows does not have a commandline zip/unzip tool either
20:54:23 <nielsm> it has a shell extension that's not available in a programmatic way due to licensing
20:55:29 <TrueBrain> owh, wait, it is not vcpkg, that is my bad; it is choco
20:55:45 <TrueBrain> vcpkg also uses fossies.org, but not for this
20:56:03 <TrueBrain> okay, 8.8.8.8 does resolve it, 1.1.1.1 does not
20:58:02 <TrueBrain> owh well, lets assume it is back operational tomorrow or something :P
20:58:45 <frosch123> FLHerne: actually no, there are some write-only things up to 0x10F or so
20:59:05 <FLHerne> frosch123: Isn't it ..127 for user code because nmlc uses the rest?
20:59:25 <FLHerne> ^that's what you said last time I asked, I just grepped my logs
20:59:38 <FLHerne> What's this "write-only stuff"?
20:59:50 <FLHerne> And should nml authors care?
20:59:53 <frosch123> they are additional return values from callbacks
21:00:08 <frosch123> their meaning is described at the callbacks, where they matter
21:00:37 <FLHerne> So if I just do STORE_TEMP(whatever, 0) it won't blow up unless there's an explicit mention?
21:01:18 <FLHerne> I think this needs more docs :P
21:01:37 <DorpsGek_III> - Add: Ubuntu focal amd64 image (by LordAro)
21:01:51 <frosch123> FLHerne: it's possible that nml's "return string(...)" inserts STORE_TEMP for 0x10x automagically
21:01:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #8127: Add: [AzurePipelines] Ubuntu Focal (20.04) build for releases https://git.io/JfCiB
21:02:51 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8133: Fix: Stop any gamelog action when recovering from SlError() https://git.io/JfWMR
21:02:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8133: Fix: Stop any gamelog action when recovering from SlError() https://git.io/JfWaZ
21:03:10 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8134: Fix #8132: Corrupted savegame crashing OpenTTD on load https://git.io/JfWM0
21:03:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8134: Fix #8132: Corrupted savegame crashing OpenTTD on load https://git.io/JfWME
21:03:37 <LordAro> oh, i approved it twice
21:03:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8134: Fix #8132: Corrupted savegame crashing OpenTTD on load https://git.io/JfWP2
21:03:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8132: Crash on loading savegame from #4524 (station related) https://git.io/JfW3t
21:03:59 <frosch123> LordAro: you also merged it twice :)
21:04:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8127: Add: [AzurePipelines] Ubuntu Focal (20.04) build for releases https://git.io/JfCiG
21:04:42 <frosch123> hmm, no, it can't read
21:07:52 <Samu> I joined a citimanya server, instant desync
21:08:09 <LordAro> frosch123: can you give final ok on #8130 ?
21:09:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8130: Fix #8119: Update docking area when clearing a shore rail tile https://git.io/JfWMy
21:10:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8130: Fix #8119: Update docking area when clearing a shore rail tile https://git.io/JfWU8
21:10:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8119: Desync related to diagonal track next to dock end https://git.io/JfnI2
21:11:23 <LordAro> anyone got any thoughts on #8046 or #7945 ?
21:11:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #159: Add: Download description for Ubuntu 20.04 https://git.io/JfWMH
21:12:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on pull request #159: Add: Download description for Ubuntu 20.04 https://git.io/JfWMb
21:13:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro updated pull request #159: Add: Download description for Ubuntu 20.04 https://git.io/JfWMK
21:13:20 <TrueBrain> Surprised that the order is "sorted" .. what has the world become :p
21:13:44 <LordAro> probably some weirdness that the old site depended on :p
21:13:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain approved pull request #159: Add: Download description for Ubuntu 20.04 https://git.io/JfWMp
21:13:56 <_dp_> LordAro, dunno if related but terraforming water cost estimation is wrong in general
21:14:22 <TrueBrain> No, it was sorted when we moved to Jekyll :)
21:14:33 <LordAro> (reminder that we can't fix issues if we don't know they exist)
21:16:01 <milek7> why 'get your server at..' spam ends up on top of the list on default sorting?
21:17:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands https://git.io/JfWDm
21:17:20 <andythenorth> cost issues are so dull :)
21:17:29 <andythenorth> we have interesting things like actual desyncs :)
21:20:36 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, btw I'm gonna keep two types of tense on description text. 2nd and 3rd person present. There's no point in keeping just one tense for everything. Most actions are better described via 2nd person ("Click on an item to...") whereas others are better described by 3rd person ("Clears all objects..."). I've crossed checked with other games, and they appear to use this interchangeably. Keeping a more relaxed rule would be
21:20:36 <mcbanhas> better in the long term and would mean less strings to fix.
21:23:32 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #7945: Building docks does not account the cost of clearing the sloped tile https://git.io/JvT9H
21:24:50 <LordAro> oh no, warning when compiling latin.txt
21:24:53 <Yexo> Meh, #7945 has code attached to it but no actual PR :(
21:24:59 <LordAro> STR_ABOUT_COPYRIGHT_OPENTTD :{BLACK}OpenTTD {COPYRIGHT} MMII-MMXIX Manus OpenTTD
21:25:22 <LordAro> GH is bad at repeated force-pushes
21:25:32 <mcbanhas> who maintains the latin translation?
21:25:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock https://git.io/JfWDg
21:25:46 <frosch123> LordAro: eints will remove the translation next time
21:26:22 <frosch123> mcbanhas: one of the two super*, i always mix them up
21:26:22 <LordAro> frosch123: ah, it must have done already in master
21:26:31 <LordAro> supercheese, according to logs
21:27:07 <frosch123> yeah, good that i did not say supermop :)
21:28:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands https://git.io/JfWDr
21:31:02 <andythenorth> propene or propylene?
21:31:10 <andythenorth> or methyl ethylene :P
21:31:15 <andythenorth> chemicals are confusing
21:31:41 * LordAro acquires beer so that he may be better able to do OTTD release prep
21:32:36 <TrueBrain> Hmm .. beer .. now there is an idea
21:33:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands https://git.io/JfWDQ
21:33:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands https://git.io/JvSaM
21:34:24 <frosch123> i kind of want to get eints to git in the next 3/4 weeks
21:34:27 <andythenorth> ha ha the 2 character cargo abbreviations are getting ridiculous in FIRS
21:34:37 <andythenorth> so many overlapping cargos :P
21:35:26 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands https://git.io/JfWDd
21:35:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: what happens if you use more than 2 chars?
21:36:19 <LordAro> ...why did no one ever put OpenGFX on banans?
21:36:36 <LordAro> and why has no one mentioned it?
21:37:10 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout https://git.io/JfZi5
21:38:15 <andythenorth> instructions are correct?
21:38:17 <LordAro> can someone who can/knows how to upload to bananas do so?
21:38:57 <LordAro> andythenorth: just step 7 of the release process
21:39:05 <andythenorth> looks like I'm not an author for OpenGFX since the move
21:39:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8046: Fix #8045: [AI/GS] Estimate costs for failed commands https://git.io/JfWDx
21:39:57 <LordAro> pm & foobar, apparently
21:39:59 <andythenorth> ok it's planetmaker or foobar,
21:40:14 <andythenorth> frosch123 can probably assign more
21:40:14 <LordAro> finding packages in new-bananas repo is hard
21:40:24 <andythenorth> I don't particularly want to be opengfx maintainer but eh
21:40:48 <TrueBrain> frosch123 : first on my todo list is to fix AWS bill, after that I will finish up that part. I believe it was nearly done, but it has been a while :D
21:41:00 <LordAro> i thought i was going mad - did a content update but still had the "5 missing sprites" warning
21:41:23 <TrueBrain> I have some time next week, so we can have that done before the end of the month if you like
21:41:26 <glx> oh looks like my search&replace magic failed on latin
21:41:48 <andythenorth> frosch123 guess what happens if I use 4 chars for cargo prop 0D? o_O
21:41:55 <LordAro> glx: i wouldn't have expected you to be checking for MMXIX :p
21:42:22 <LordAro> shame to lose them really, but i suppose it'll have to be switched to dirty arabic numerals
21:42:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: the station list becomes huge?
21:43:09 <TrueBrain> LordAro : "hard" is an improvement on "not able to", I guess? :p
21:43:12 <frosch123> LordAro: are you asking for a pr to print vehicle cost in latin?
21:43:18 <andythenorth> looks like it's just a convention
21:43:40 <frosch123> LordAro: numerals > 1000 are kind of hard, needs special characters, not sure whether unicode has all of them
21:43:50 <frosch123> or rather, which fonts have them
21:44:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: so, are you using the cargo labels now? so people can learn about BEER?
21:44:48 <andythenorth> those abbreviations have always been meh
21:45:05 <andythenorth> "OpenGFX is licensed under the GNU General Pubilc License version 2.0." < if we find a releaser, can we fix that line in description?
21:45:07 <frosch123> andythenorth: no idea what translators would do
21:45:13 <LordAro> frosch123: not at all, but now it's fixed to a "2020" string
21:45:14 <andythenorth> could have been worse, -l is more lolz
21:45:18 <LordAro> andythenorth: i noticed that
21:45:43 <andythenorth> I never ever read those cargo abbreviations ever
21:45:49 <andythenorth> maybe I should just have python guess some
21:46:28 <andythenorth> haha, they don't even show the cargo on tooltip
21:46:33 <andythenorth> they are absolute junk UI
21:48:56 <LordAro> glx: ah, you missed urdu as well, but that's an unfinished lang so we don't care about it
21:49:06 <LordAro> :{BLACK}OpenTTD {COPYRIGHT} ٢٠٠٢ - ٢٠١٦ OpenTTD ٹیم
21:55:08 <frosch123> a text filter would be more useful :)
21:55:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #138: Fix: Make the industry example do something, rather than crashing https://git.io/JfWy6
21:55:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #133: Doc: Remove broken code from industry example. https://git.io/JfWyX
21:56:08 <frosch123> the abbreviations are probably useful in the rows with the station data
21:56:14 <frosch123> but the filter is silly :)
21:56:15 <andythenorth> I could do a dirty protest :P
21:56:19 <andythenorth> and set them all to __
21:56:27 <FLHerne> nielsm/andythenorth: Can someone who actually writes industry grfs review #138 ?
21:56:33 <FLHerne> It seems to work, but...
21:57:47 <andythenorth> I can't actually do nml
21:57:52 <andythenorth> I have to constantly refer to the spec
21:58:04 <andythenorth> I can't even write a block without checking syntax
22:00:04 <andythenorth> far as I can tell, cargo_types doesn't need to list output cargos
22:00:10 <andythenorth> FIRS doesn't, and seems to work
22:00:31 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I did it without that first, and it didn't work :P
22:00:39 <andythenorth> "All cargo types the industry handles must be mentioned in its cargo_types property even when they are handled by production callbacks."
22:02:18 <glx> the new code seems better than the old one
22:05:28 <FLHerne> I don't think that's hard
22:06:23 <FLHerne> Given that the old one failed to do nothing
22:07:59 <andythenorth> FIRS is wrong, new example is right
22:08:10 <glx> and if I read the doc correctly it should work as intended
22:08:10 <andythenorth> we'll go with 'right'
22:10:08 <mcbanhas> STR_REFIT_SELECT_VEHICLES_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Select the vehicles to refit. Dragging with the mouse allows to select multiple vehicles. Clicking on an empty space will select the whole vehicle. Ctrl+Click will select a vehicle and the following chain
22:10:16 <mcbanhas> Where can I find this string specifically
22:10:22 <mcbanhas> It's not in the train refit menu
22:11:30 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Depot window, probably
22:12:40 <Samu> refit window for trains?
22:12:44 <mcbanhas> Not as far as I can see
22:13:37 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: What Samu says
22:13:55 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Specifically, hovering over the train at the top of the window
22:14:23 <FLHerne> (tbh, I never knew that was there...)
22:14:42 <FLHerne> [being able to select individual vehicles]
22:15:28 <mcbanhas> Man that's a WEIRD af interface
22:16:00 <glx> it's from last century (with additions)
22:17:44 <andythenorth> it's for setting realistic liveries
22:20:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout https://git.io/JfWSB
22:23:06 <FLHerne> LordAro: Hm, I don't think "firms up" is really the right term :-/
22:23:46 <LordAro> FLHerne: please do offer up better suggestions
22:24:00 <FLHerne> And the git thing isn't really Debian-specific
22:24:02 <LordAro> not like i actually understand what i'm doing with nml :p
22:24:19 <FLHerne> Nor especially crucial compared to the various limit fixes
22:24:28 <FLHerne> It's important to about one person :P
22:24:51 <FLHerne> Hm, although it's not in the changelog at all
22:25:05 <andythenorth> firms up / corrects
22:25:07 <FLHerne> I was about to comment with suggestion
22:25:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 requested changes for pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock https://git.io/JfWSy
22:25:17 <LordAro> well we wouldn't be making it so soon without that one person :p
22:25:22 <andythenorth> the 15 was just a fuck up by me
22:25:40 <andythenorth> sooner it's gone, the less bad I feel :)
22:26:23 <FLHerne> LordAro: I don't think that's true
22:27:04 <FLHerne> LordAro: The incorrect param and roadtype limits, and transported_last_month_pct being up to 255 (!) are all pretty critical
22:27:17 <glx> oh there were 2 commits in the PR
22:27:28 <LordAro> no more critical than half the other changes in 0.5.0
22:27:35 <LordAro> and that didn't happen for years :p
22:27:45 <andythenorth> no but having done it, it would be nice to undo the brown bag :)
22:30:05 <andythenorth> I could actually compile that example grf and try it in game :P
22:30:10 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 dismissed a review for pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock https://git.io/JfWSy
22:32:52 <FLHerne> LordAro: tbc, I mean that comment as a suggestion for everything down to the ---- below "Other changes"
22:33:11 <FLHerne> LordAro: (including the Debian bit)
22:33:13 <frosch123> LordAro: do we use the "suggest change" for changelogs?
22:33:29 <LordAro> frosch123: i'll roll it in manually anyway
22:34:44 <FLHerne> frosch123: Sorry, that was my mistake when I suggested that changelog line
22:35:04 <FLHerne> I was thinking of roadtypes, obviously :-/
22:35:34 <LordAro> existing comments resolved
22:36:53 <FLHerne> LordAro: None of my comments are resolved?
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22:38:41 <LordAro> it's probably redundant here, tbh
22:38:49 <frosch123> we banned latin from english.txt :)
22:39:18 * frosch123 adds NB to IE and EG
22:39:51 <LordAro> and i have never seen "e.g." capitalised
22:40:25 <frosch123> me neither :) always e.g. and i.e.
22:40:37 <andythenorth> cargo label for BTX Aromatics? :P
22:40:39 <LordAro> I.E. very occasionally, i think
22:41:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 merged pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout https://git.io/JfZi5
22:41:14 <andythenorth> FLHerne the cargo example I have read it, I can't see anything wrong, but I am a crap reviewer. I write my code by trial and error :P
22:42:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #138: Fix: Make the industry example do something, rather than crashing https://git.io/JfW9V
22:47:56 <andythenorth> oof 110 industries in FIRS now
22:48:01 <andythenorth> almost the limit
22:48:16 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I did compile and test it
22:48:25 <FLHerne> Then I did it again, because it didn't work the first time :P
22:49:04 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What you're missing is an "all of them at once" mode
22:49:25 <FLHerne> (seriously, that might be kind of fun to have; no-one would expect it to be balanced or sane)
22:49:48 <andythenorth> I have a forum PM where someone is releasing a FIRS 3 fork with 'all industries'
22:49:52 <andythenorth> it's not public yet
22:49:55 <andythenorth> but I have seen the cargo flow
22:50:08 <FLHerne> And scenario makers could carefully place them to produce maps that were somewhat sane
22:50:29 <FLHerne> Everyone's telling you it's a good idea!
22:50:52 <andythenorth> it's a good idea for other people to do it :)
22:51:43 <andythenorth> 255 industries for OpenTTD 1.11 then?
22:51:51 <andythenorth> there was a limitation though
22:52:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 approved pull request #138: Fix: Make the industry example do something, rather than crashing https://git.io/JfWHk
22:53:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #138: Fix: Make the industry example do something, rather than crashing https://git.io/JfWy6
22:53:08 <andythenorth> goes it throw out limitation? o_O
22:53:16 <andythenorth> was it max size of callback results?
22:54:20 <frosch123> the limit is from variables like industry_distance
22:56:12 <andythenorth> I might end up assigning IDs per economy manually
22:56:23 <andythenorth> not sure if nml will choke on that
22:56:56 <andythenorth> I'm not sure if it tries to do any magic with IDs
22:57:09 <glx> if you do it via actionD it should work
22:57:42 <andythenorth> the newgrf spec will allow it
22:57:57 <andythenorth> I'm just not sure what nml does with resolving identifiers, and also switch chains
22:58:18 <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_FIND_SERVER :{BLACK}Find server
22:58:18 <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_FIND_SERVER_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Search network for a server
22:58:32 <mcbanhas> This appears to be the same as "Refresh list" on most server browsers
22:59:11 <andythenorth> isn't 'Find Server' the button you have to click to make the multiplayer lobby do something?
22:59:17 <andythenorth> I always just hit it until things work
22:59:27 <andythenorth> no idea what it's supposed to do
22:59:35 <andythenorth> so much of OpenTTD is a mystery to me :)
22:59:39 <mcbanhas> It does the same as "Refresh list"
22:59:45 <mcbanhas> So I'm going to rename it
23:00:29 <mcbanhas> the actual tool for searching for specific servers is the filter located at the top of the window
23:00:32 <andythenorth> Refresh list of what?
23:02:34 <mcbanhas> I could do Refresh server list, but come on
23:02:44 <LordAro> anyone got any opposition?
23:02:54 <mcbanhas> Most games these days just have "Refresh list"
23:05:22 <LordAro> frosch123: can you do the suitable amount of poking to give andythenorth upload rights to OGFX?
23:06:32 <frosch123> no poking needed, everyone can do that
23:06:40 <frosch123> but i can make a PR :)
23:09:27 <andythenorth> it's no way obvious that it's a list of servers
23:09:34 <andythenorth> not being difficult
23:09:48 <andythenorth> just pointing out that the concepts are murky
23:10:49 <andythenorth> not all multiplayer games involve 'server', some are auto-discovery LAN play, and some use a queue to put you into MMPORG type play
23:11:28 <andythenorth> mcbanhas but this is just tooltip changes? Or did I miss the memo?
23:11:49 <mcbanhas> No, I'm editing text for the whole UI.
23:12:00 <mcbanhas> But I will submit things by batches
23:12:39 * andythenorth clicks 'Refresh server' a lot
23:12:42 <andythenorth> to see what happens
23:13:15 <andythenorth> it's nice that we've provided a 'Cancel' button there
23:13:23 <andythenorth> it prevents a boring consistency with other windows
23:13:29 <andythenorth> we should mix things up more
23:14:00 <andythenorth> 'Check online content' uses 'Close'
23:14:05 <andythenorth> which is nice and varied
23:14:14 <andythenorth> I often 'Check online content'
23:14:18 <andythenorth> just to check it's all ok
23:14:23 <andythenorth> Bananas, you ok hun?
23:14:43 <_dp_> LordAro, mb wait with 1.10.2 till tomorrow? I hope I'll hunt that desync today
23:15:09 <frosch123> _dp_: are you sure you can see any desyncs in the dockingtile fog?
23:15:36 <_dp_> there are no docks or ships in this game
23:15:48 <_dp_> and I already found a way to step it 1 frame at a time
23:16:13 <_dp_> so just waiting till a player finished his megagame before starting torturing the server xD
23:16:16 <FLHerne> What's the last not-broken release?
23:17:26 <LordAro> andythenorth: gogo ogfx
23:17:42 <glx> and 1.10 had RC versions, but nobody tries them (like nightlies)
23:18:13 <LordAro> FLHerne: if we knew that, finding the problem would be easy :p
23:18:54 <andythenorth> I need to find the actual opengfx bundle
23:19:09 <andythenorth> that's source bundle
23:19:13 <mcbanhas> Is the "Not advertised" server seach not supposed to detect a game I host by myself locally?
23:19:23 <LordAro> surely it was put somewhere...
23:19:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: cdn.openttd.org
23:19:36 <mcbanhas> If so, is there a way I can test local server detecting without another computer?
23:19:43 <andythenorth> thanks frosch123
23:20:08 <Yexo> mcbanhas: it should work when starting the game twice on the same computer
23:20:12 <Yexo> It did for me a few days ago
23:20:37 <mcbanhas> Yexo, doesn't work for me. Maybe something weird with system config?
23:20:59 <LordAro> you have to actually "Start server", rather than playing single player
23:21:06 <LordAro> or whatever it's called
23:21:12 <andythenorth> do I use 'Update' or 'Upload' in Bananas?
23:21:18 <FLHerne> Works for me with 1.10.1
23:21:25 <LordAro> andythenorth: update, i would presume
23:21:38 <frosch123> andythenorth: "update" is better, but it links to the same currently :)
23:21:53 <glx> frosch123: don't say it ;)
23:21:56 <andythenorth> was someone making a new UI?
23:25:00 <andythenorth> looks like Bananas won't accept the cdn zip of opengfx
23:25:15 <andythenorth> returns "Expecting at least a single file defining the Content Type." when I hit 'validate'
23:25:33 <andythenorth> FWIW it would never accept bundles tars either
23:26:01 <frosch123> it probably only understands real zip, and tar.gz, but nor tar.zip
23:26:16 <FLHerne> LordAro: Sorry, I think that's it now :P
23:26:31 <andythenorth> does it understand multi-grf archives?
23:26:37 <LordAro> FLHerne: is that in addition, or replacement?
23:27:01 <frosch123> LordAro: it's rather common, since ottd understands .tar. so people are supposed to just unzip and put the .tar into the ottd folder
23:27:04 <FLHerne> LordAro: Addition, it was committed just now
23:27:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: the .tar should work
23:28:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: 1. upload tar, 2. validate, 3. click "delete" on license.txt
23:28:29 <LordAro> and correct the description text
23:28:45 <frosch123> you can do that later :)
23:29:41 <andythenorth> or I use the source tar?
23:29:53 <LordAro> andythenorth: you'll have to repack it
23:30:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: i'll do it :)
23:30:29 <frosch123> three people telling one person what to click never works
23:31:19 <andythenorth> todo: automate publishing :P
23:31:21 <LordAro> no stop clicking there, click here
23:31:46 <andythenorth> I nearly quit forever when coop channel tried to teach me to install nml
23:31:57 <andythenorth> using 3 different operating systems
23:32:42 <FLHerne> frosch123: I'm still confused by the STORE_ docs :P
23:32:45 <andythenorth> grfcodec, simpler times :P
23:32:52 <FLHerne> "0..255 are available for the GRF to use. Note that accessing permanent town registers thrashes the contents of temporary register 0x100."
23:33:01 <FLHerne> ...but 0x100 is 256?!
23:33:28 <FLHerne> Similarly "Addresses 0..127 are available for the GRF to use. Addresses 0x100 and above have special purposes"
23:33:49 <nielsm> 0..255 are freely usable, higher addresses are reserved for special purposes?
23:33:59 <FLHerne> I guess the second one isn't necessarily conflicting
23:34:22 <FLHerne> In the first case, there's no reason to care about 0x100 being thrashed if it can't be used directly?
23:34:34 <Yexo> FLHerne: Going from memory: 0..255 are read+writeable from newgrf. 0x100+ is write-only, used for special purposes. NML-specific: nmlc reserves 128..255 for internal usage, leaving 0..127 to you as user
23:35:42 <Yexo> 0x100+ most likely have documented usage in a few callbacks. In those callbacks you need to use STORE_TEMP to set the value. If you use permanent town registers in the same callback chain, you'll overwrite the value you set earlier, thus leading to unexpected results
23:42:10 <mcbanhas> One question, why doesn't OpenGFX feature the little haystacks on farms?
23:45:19 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: They're seasonal, I think?
23:46:19 <FLHerne> They appear and disappear depending on (IIRC) the time of year
23:46:41 <FLHerne> Maybe it's random, don't quote me on that
23:48:46 <mcbanhas> I never get them. In retrospect they appear just fine in NightGFX
23:50:16 <FLHerne> LordAro, glx: Time for the nml release? :D
23:57:55 <glx> let's see if all the automatic upload works here too :)
23:58:56 <FLHerne> The tarballs still have the various dotfiles, and version_update.py :-/
23:59:28 <LordAro> is the manifest file actually used?
23:59:49 <FLHerne> Hm, but correct MANIFEST.in
23:59:52 <LordAro> isn't it only used by pyinstaller, actually?
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