IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-03-14
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00:33:12 <ac> hello. nml 0.5 features are listed on the ttwiki, but not available on the github? is a release or source of nml 0.5 available?
00:33:58 <glx> it's the master branch on github
00:35:29 <ac> ok. must have made a mistake, as my nmlc --version says 0.4.5. thanks. i must have dled the 0.4.5 release.
00:35:47 <glx> 0.4.5 is the latest release yes
00:36:09 <ac> is the master working (mostly) ?
00:37:54 <glx> it does, unless some bugs appear :)
00:38:19 <glx> but it's hard to find bugs without using it ;)
00:42:05 <glx> iron horse uses some of the new nml features
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04:02:56 <Flygon> Is there a list of what trains the Japan Set3 Trains provides?
04:03:00 <Flygon> Including the Addon set?
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05:25:11 <ac> does the game "lose" resources at a station even when a train is waiting? -- i invented an industry that takes 1 wood and creates 1 charcoal, and i confirmed that the 1:1 works because if i deliver 30t wood, it says 30t coal produced this month. however, if i have a coal train waiting for that coal while it is produced, it always gets about 60-80% of what it should get.
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08:30:08 <LordAro> reddit is very depressing this morning
08:35:23 <andythenorth> I only read r/openttd
08:37:53 <LordAro> probably slightly less depressing
08:38:11 <LordAro> the rest of reddit just the US falling apart
08:40:43 <andythenorth> I accidentally watched Trump's live broadcast last night
08:40:51 <andythenorth> 'inspiring confidence'
08:42:29 <andythenorth> are politicians getting it a disproportionate rate?
08:46:10 * andythenorth looks for issues to close
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09:21:05 <andythenorth> oof FIRS supplies code
09:21:09 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 11 hours, 17 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <frosch123> yeah, there is a certain thrill whether you are allowed to go home afterwards
09:21:17 <Wolf01> So, it's like the situation is critical
09:23:37 <Wolf01> andythenorth: so your leaders choose the steep curve?
09:24:37 <Wolf01> Go for the flat one, really
09:24:46 <andythenorth> the uk case rate remains relatively low
09:24:58 <andythenorth> and we have had robust test + trace
09:25:38 <andythenorth> obvs I don't know how it will play out, but I'm tending to agree with our public health officials
09:25:43 <andythenorth> take where I live
09:25:50 <Wolf01> We are reaching hospital capacity really fast, also morgue capacity
09:26:09 <andythenorth> yes I have seen some pictures
09:26:42 <andythenorth> there are 6 cases in the region where I live, and population of 600,000
09:27:12 <andythenorth> the cases are isolated
09:27:27 <andythenorth> r0 looks to be around 2 or 2.5
09:27:32 <andythenorth> depending on social factors
09:28:36 <andythenorth> so let's say there are a couple of hundred walking around my region undetected
09:28:45 <andythenorth> and they're *supposed* to be self-isolating
09:28:56 <andythenorth> if they have any relevant symptom
09:29:33 <Wolf01> The problem is that you might be infective even without symptoms, and you can infect one hundred more people
09:29:39 <andythenorth> so do we ask more than half a million people to stop working, in case they're in close proximity with one of a hundred people?
09:30:14 <andythenorth> the chinese data is sketchy, but asymptomatic transmission is believed to be relatively rare
09:30:19 <andythenorth> makes a great headline though
09:30:28 <andythenorth> 'super shedders don't even know they have symptoms'
09:30:48 <Wolf01> And you will acknowledge that maybe in 14 days, when it's too late
09:31:42 <LordAro> andythenorth: does FIRS have loo roll yet?
09:31:42 <andythenorth> the Italian case has terrifyingly different numbers to UK
09:31:48 <andythenorth> including death rate
09:31:57 <Wolf01> Remember, you are 2 weeks late
09:31:59 <andythenorth> Italy situation is really appalling, as is US
09:32:27 <andythenorth> everyone has seen the graph where the gradient on UK case growth is same as Italy
09:32:36 <andythenorth> but the start of the graph is different
09:33:02 <LordAro> US graph is identical to Italy
09:33:27 <andythenorth> US situation equally terrifying
09:33:36 <andythenorth> it's not that I think UK will be fine
09:33:48 <andythenorth> it's just that I think public health response should be adapted to local conditions
09:33:56 <andythenorth> and not based on politicians needing to feel strong
09:34:06 <andythenorth> because a bloke on medium wrote a scary blog headline
09:34:12 <LordAro> US is barely doing any testing either
09:34:35 <LordAro> turns out being an island does have its advantages
09:35:29 <andythenorth> we'll be banning public gatherings by Monday I think
09:35:37 <andythenorth> it's a low cost way to look like we're doing something
09:35:42 <andythenorth> it won't kill many more people
09:35:58 <LordAro> as long as can get off the ferry by then, i'll be fine
09:36:11 <LordAro> and also pls don't cancel my holiday to Majorca in April
09:36:32 <Wolf01> Just to say, in my area there are just a few deaths compared to other areas, but that's because a lot of people died of pneumonia in november/december... I think this gone unnoticed for at least 2 months and now we are questioning if we already didn't get it before
09:37:16 <LordAro> i saw something about China tracing its first (known) case back to mid November
09:37:32 <andythenorth> there are a whole set of us who've done the symptom checklist
09:37:40 <andythenorth> for the 24-48hr fever we had in Jan-Feb
09:37:46 <andythenorth> *not* seasonal flu
09:38:06 <andythenorth> could have been one of the other known circulating coronaviruses though, matched those
09:38:36 <LordAro> one thing i've not seen anything about is the accuracy of the C19 test
09:38:48 <andythenorth> UK gov is pretty smug about the one we have
09:39:02 <andythenorth> developed after SARS, apparently accurate, fast, adaptable
09:39:24 <andythenorth> it's managed by public health england, not dependent on overseas / private source
09:40:55 <andythenorth> Wolf01: do you actually know anyone who has tested +ve for covid yet?
09:41:34 <Wolf01> Yes, a coworker's parner is positive, and ve have some cases in my area too
09:42:14 <andythenorth> there will be interesting attitude changes once more of us know someone who has had it
09:42:24 <andythenorth> details will depend on how badly they had it
09:42:25 <SpComb> depends on the severity
09:42:31 <Wolf01> We are waiting to see if my coworker is positive and then we'll do it all
09:43:05 <andythenorth> people who are like 'it was just a cold, and none of us got' will be very hard to make comply with social distancing
09:43:21 <andythenorth> people who know someone who died will be like 'wtf? why are you all not complying'
09:43:41 <andythenorth> our framing is very localised
09:44:17 <LordAro> but equally, afaik there have been very few deaths that didn't already have fairly serious health complications
09:44:26 <Wolf01> The problem is that we are used to work even with seasonal flu until we can't even stay up, then half of the company gets ill and we are like "wtf you don't stay home with fever and shit?"
09:44:51 <Wolf01> So, probably we even got it and we are asymptomatic
09:45:22 * LordAro got given the seasonal flu vaccine a few months ago
09:45:28 <LordAro> wonder if that's still relevant
09:45:42 <SpComb> yeah, everyone needs to start taking flu symptoms far more seriously now
09:46:29 <SpComb> Finnish healthcare ministry made a bad example of himself, held a press conference about not going to work if sick, while blowing his nose etc
09:46:57 * andythenorth wonders if anyone is tracking +ve tests vs. politicians
09:46:57 <SpComb> *official, not minister
09:47:26 <andythenorth> LordAro: flu vaccine is relevant if you have any underlying health condition or live with those who do
09:47:38 <andythenorth> flu season ain't over
09:49:19 <andythenorth> Wolf01: a few years ago we got really strict about 'if you have anything that looks like flu, fuck off home, stop pretending to be a hero'
09:50:59 <Wolf01> I wish we did that too before, monday I asked to stay home because I had a bit of fever, no other symptoms, I just didn't sleep well, but I wanted to check it and the day after I was fine, so I went back to work
09:51:45 <SpComb> last week people were still coughing at the office, including the guy sitting opposite me. Now everyone's mostly remote, yay
09:53:25 <andythenorth> it's been a great few weeks for webex, zoom, whereby eh?
09:54:42 <Wolf01> AH, yesterday I talked about people without common sense, I said 20-30 fines/arrests cases at day, yeah, in my area, in the region they are more than 500 and I don't know how many in the entire state
09:56:42 <andythenorth> the current supply boost contains some lies
09:56:55 <andythenorth> text says 'deliver x crates within 3 months'
09:57:27 <andythenorth> but the delivery window is calculated on the monthly cb
09:57:42 <andythenorth> so if you deliver on September 29th, you only get 2 months and 2 days or so
09:59:03 <andythenorth> I could move it to the 256 tick CB, which would also be occasionally be wrong due to months containing 9 production cycles not 8
10:08:35 <_dp_> btw, that boost lacks clarity imo
10:09:04 <_dp_> if you don't timetable it perfectly and just deliver some supplies boost pretty much jumps randmly
10:09:16 <andythenorth> what is timetable please? :)
10:09:18 <_dp_> with no way to see what's going on
10:09:59 <_dp_> andythenorth, and how do you supply exactly x a month without a timetable?
10:11:21 <_dp_> imo would be better to have a stockpile for supplies on industry
10:13:02 <andythenorth> then you have to have a precise timetable
10:13:05 <andythenorth> I frigging hate timetables
10:14:03 <andythenorth> the current system is designed as fire and forget
10:14:09 <andythenorth> it may be a bit...odd
10:14:18 <andythenorth> but I don't want to have schedule deliveries
10:16:12 * andythenorth is open to better suggestions
10:24:06 <nielsm> imo a stockpile system would be much clearer
10:24:42 <nielsm> consume X supplies every 256 ticks, if there are no supplies to consume then production level drops
10:26:29 <nielsm> and a limit on amount stockpiled, e.g. max 3 or 6 months worth
10:27:38 <andythenorth> how would you limit the stockpile?
10:29:02 <nielsm> store it in a permanent storage var and display it via a custom text, prevent the amount from increasing past a certain level
10:29:11 <nielsm> (not using the built-in stockpile system)
10:29:33 <nielsm> that would still have the industry pay in full for an oversupply
10:30:13 <andythenorth> what stops me just flooding it with 2k tonnes once a year?
10:30:37 <nielsm> if the stockpile is limited to 6 months use then anything exceeding that is pointless
10:31:12 <nielsm> but it does mean you aren't required to have a trickle of trucks delivering small amounts constantly, but can do with a few trains delievering 2-4 times a year
10:32:05 <andythenorth> interestingly, the way players use current mechanic seems to be quite different to me
10:32:06 <nielsm> even just a display on the industry showing "current supplies will last until <date>" would be good
10:33:27 <nielsm> windows demands a reboot... I rebooted a few days ago for an update too though? >_>
10:42:20 <andythenorth> currently it says 'deliver within n months'
10:42:24 <andythenorth> but it doesn't tell the truth
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11:50:22 <Wolf01> Cities skylines looks fine on nintendo switch, needs a bit of use to play with the joypads but it has everything but mods :P
12:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i can't imagine playing without traffic manager
12:13:45 <Wolf01> Yeah, I'll should re-learn to play the old hard way :P
12:14:00 <Samu> i just created a gs that gives 1 billion £ to every company
12:14:18 <Samu> useful for testing AI construction speeds
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12:52:44 <Samu> civilai is either too slow, or just doesn't care
12:55:26 <Samu> AIAI started strong, all aircraft, but it seems to have airport capacity issues
13:01:04 <Samu> I expected more from trAIns
13:03:03 <Samu> my ai still suffers a bit slow pathfinder
13:03:58 <Samu> terron looks fast and strong profits
13:04:39 <Samu> builds 3 times more roads than I and twice the num of vehicles
13:16:37 <TrueBrain> some people have more than 32 tags on their content .. lolz ..
14:01:56 <TrueBrain> anyone up for 2 quick reviews?
14:09:56 <andythenorth> hmm I'm not competent :P
14:10:01 <andythenorth> 'probably fine'?
14:11:13 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-api] TrueBrain merged pull request #1: Add: [DorpsGek] announce issues, pull-requests, and tags to IRC https://git.io/JviWr
14:11:15 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #2: Add: [DorpsGek] announce issues, pull-requests, and tags to IRC https://git.io/JviWV
14:17:26 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-server] TrueBrain opened pull request #3: Add: [Actions] flake8, black, and docker build tests https://git.io/JvilU
14:19:42 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-api] TrueBrain opened pull request #2: Add: [Actions] flake8, black, and docker build tests https://git.io/Jvilm
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14:34:57 <TrueBrain> you .. really did it?
14:36:47 <TrueBrain> ugh, wrong window, was not for you :)
14:40:59 <TrueBrain> w00p, BaNaNaS v1.5 is working-ish :)
14:41:16 <TrueBrain> handful of TODOs left, of which the biggest writing the files for GitHub
14:42:50 <rotterdxm> wow it has been a while since I´ve last used IRC. almost 10 years.
14:44:33 <TrueBrain> not sure that is an achievement or not :P
14:48:06 <rotterdxm> the philosophical question that haunts our generation :D
14:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure which part would be the achievement... to go away, or to come back...
14:55:17 <TrueBrain> ty Flygon , the correct answer!
14:55:43 * Flygon continues to lurk for seven more months
14:55:54 <TrueBrain> yeah, you ruined your @seen for this joke :P
14:57:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how are FIRS supplies supposed to work again?
14:57:37 <andythenorth> the mechanic is that n units cargo are required, and will provide a boost for ~3 months
14:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think i've even played with the firs supplies mechanics
14:57:57 <andythenorth> the mechanic is fine, the implementation is wrong
15:02:25 <andythenorth> I've seen too many reports that it needs strict timetabling :P
15:02:28 <andythenorth> it absolutely doesn't
15:03:49 <TrueBrain> 11 TODOs left, w00p
15:06:20 <rotterdxm> hmm, I don generally use timetabling for the supplies, I just use hovercrafts. that works extremely well for me
15:06:42 <andythenorth> planes, hovercraft, small boats
15:06:49 <andythenorth> railcars, 80t mail trains
15:14:51 <andythenorth> _dp_: I'm curious, why _do_ you schedule supply deliveries monthly? :)
15:14:58 <andythenorth> is it just personal preference?
15:16:27 <rotterdxm> oh btw, andy, people keep incorrectly crediting me for the sprites from FIRS. I don´t like that and I correct them whenever I see it. I will be adding more prominent credits for the source sprites, since it seems people just gloss over that part.
15:17:35 <rotterdxm> Just so you know, this was not my intention. Anyone besides you that also should be credited?
15:17:47 <andythenorth> too many to mention :)
15:18:23 <andythenorth> I like seeing the work reused
15:18:40 <rotterdxm> me too, sprites need love
15:34:22 <TrueBrain> glx_: 2 more easy reviews? (in same repos)
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16:01:17 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-server] glx22 approved pull request #3: Add: [Actions] flake8, black, and docker build tests https://git.io/Jvi40
16:02:29 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-api] glx22 approved pull request #2: Add: [Actions] flake8, black, and docker build tests https://git.io/Jvi4E
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16:14:44 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #3: Add: [Actions] flake8, black, and docker build tests https://git.io/JvilU
16:14:47 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-api] TrueBrain merged pull request #2: Add: [Actions] flake8, black, and docker build tests https://git.io/Jvilm
16:18:36 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #1: Add: first version of the content_server rewritten in Python https://git.io/Jvi4P
16:20:53 <TrueBrain> frosch123: if you like, the above works (but is not persistent yet)
16:21:00 <TrueBrain> you can create a Docker out of it, and run it locally
16:23:31 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #1: Add: first version of the content_server rewritten in Python https://git.io/Jvi4P
16:30:30 <TrueBrain> a real API to work against :D
16:30:55 <TrueBrain> owh, and dependencies is not working at all :P
16:31:18 <frosch123> can we somehow call it a real APE ?
16:32:01 <TrueBrain> APE? Hmm ... Absolutely Perfect Enhancements? :D
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16:55:26 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/eints] frosch123 updated pull request #5: Add github-based authentication and authorization https://git.io/Jv2k1
17:26:12 <spnda> what about a PR to NMLC so that it does not just output a single error before it stops?
17:26:55 <spnda> I'm making a linter for Visual Studio Code and only having 1 single error is kinda lame
17:29:21 <glx> it's not very easy to change that
17:39:04 <nielsm> yeah I imagine it would require major changes to the core of the parser (which is an external library) to allow/attempt recovery after syntax errors
17:40:02 <glx> and errors are not always in the parser, some syntax checks are done in the tree analysis step
17:41:30 <nielsm> and you'd typically end up getting useless cascading errors anyway, attempt to recover from first error triggers 50 consecutive errors later because various things are not declared
17:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the typical way to recover from syntax errors is to make an educated guess what syntax token is missing (like a closing bracket, semicolon, or something) and the "educated" part of that is actually pretty hard
17:44:19 <nielsm> javascript semicolon insertion *urghh*
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17:45:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you get hit by 100 lines of followup errors, it might make it even harder for people to find the original error
17:45:50 <glx> I don't remember which language it was, but "missing } on last line of source file" is so useful :)
17:47:44 <glx> like yeah the compiler knows how to count opening/closing, but without logically determining where the missing one is
17:47:47 <nielsm> I think I remember getting that in java
17:48:32 <nielsm> and typical in CS classes where students have no indentation discipline
17:49:20 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, anyone know lutris? i pointed it to a custom wine binary, but when trying to launch that, it complains about version mismatch (wine server/client, i presume)
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19:45:07 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I changed the dependencies both in the API as in the GitHub repo to a more useful form (no longer A:B:C, but just a nested object)
19:45:14 <TrueBrain> somehow that makes more sense now :)
19:45:50 <frosch123> haha, that was on my list of things to suggest :p
19:46:16 <frosch123> when you do the same for replaced-by, drop the md5sum-partial
19:46:48 <frosch123> to my understanding, replaced-by is on unique-id level, so md5sum-partial makes no sense
19:48:11 <TrueBrain> that is a boo-boo in the API documentation :D
19:48:17 <TrueBrain> but yeah, will make that an object too :)
20:00:52 <andythenorth> ho it's frosch123 :)
20:19:00 <frosch123> TrueBrain: actually, also drop the content-type from replaced-by ... unique-id is enough
20:19:13 <frosch123> so, single string is fine
20:20:31 <TrueBrain> do you have any idea how much effort these changes take? :P
20:20:37 <TrueBrain> but yeah, you are right, the content-type can never change
20:20:59 <TrueBrain> I wonder if a single string is clear enoguh that it is a unique-id
20:21:04 <TrueBrain> replaced-by-unique-id ?
20:21:13 <TrueBrain> or replaced-by:\n unique-id: "abcdef12"
20:22:02 <frosch123> ok, keep the latter, then clients can enrich the dict with name and more, if they want
20:22:32 <TrueBrain> a reason possibly in the future
20:23:17 <TrueBrain> and clients cannot enrich anything btw, server also checks for too many fields :P
20:23:30 <TrueBrain> the API is rather strict; marshmallow is a nice library :)
20:38:31 <TrueBrain> okay, API now sends out dicts in the same order every time .. that was annoying the fuck out of me :P
20:48:22 <TrueBrain> First condition can only mark the first client-version this version does work for; expected '>= VERSION', got ...
20:48:41 <TrueBrain> Second condition can only mark the first client-version this version doesn't work for; expected '< VERSION', got ...
20:49:02 <TrueBrain> Condition can only mark the first client-version this version does or doesn't work for; expected '>= VERSION' or '< VERSION', got '> 1.0.0'
21:13:54 <TrueBrain> Package with UniqueID abcdef12 does not exist for newgrf.
21:14:59 <frosch123> are uniqueid and md5sum-partial case-sensitive?
21:15:42 <TrueBrain> (but I guess the data should not be interpreted, just taken as-is)
21:17:52 <TrueBrain> No version with md5sum-partial 'abcdef14' exist for newgrf with UniqueID '47590101'.
21:19:15 <TrueBrain> okay, that means dependency validation works :D w00p!
21:24:15 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/content-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #1: Add: first version of the content_server rewritten in Python https://git.io/Jvi4P
21:24:58 <TrueBrain> 10 TODOs left, of which most are: write to disk and commit to GitHub
21:26:18 <TrueBrain> pretty sure I am forgetting to validate something, just no clue what that something is atm :D Ghehe :)
21:26:39 <TrueBrain> marshmallow allows you to define a Schema in a nice way, and takes care of most of the validation :)
21:26:52 <TrueBrain> means you cannot get junk into the API, means less code to validate later on :)
21:26:59 <TrueBrain> makes me happy, in case you missed the :) :) :)
21:27:09 <glx> you'll know it when it backfires :)
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21:53:11 <nielsm> are we making an rc2? or just dumping 1.10.0 out there on april 1st as usual?
21:57:19 <debdog> as an april folls joke?
21:58:55 <frosch123> you are new to the project :)
22:01:29 <andythenorth> nml release as April Fools?
22:01:42 <andythenorth> how about we announce JGR PP is merged?
22:02:28 <frosch123> we removed everything that is also in jgrpp, to make stuff less redundant
22:03:05 <frosch123> anyway, don't flood jgr with noobs
22:04:32 <nielsm> reduced passenger traffic by 90% and passengers no longer travel between towns
22:04:33 <frosch123> andythenorth: "you can find details on the release in the january dev diary"
22:04:41 <nielsm> would probably be bit bad taste
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22:04:48 <andythenorth> ooh well played frosch123 :)
22:05:17 <andythenorth> jgrpp is the default recommendation to any noob in forums or reddit now :)
22:05:26 <andythenorth> but the jan dev post eh :)
22:06:13 <TrueBrain> what is your obsession with that?
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22:55:27 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
23:23:36 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8030: Fix: [AI/GS] Consider neutral station setting when creating tile lists https://git.io/Jva4v
23:28:31 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8033: Change: A company goal type will open the company overview window when clicked https://git.io/Jvi2y
23:41:15 <andythenorth> can't think of a funny line
23:41:24 <andythenorth> in a non-funny situation :P
23:43:38 <andythenorth> oof I don't like how many 'how does vanilla OpenTTD work?' questions JGR gets
23:43:53 <andythenorth> I get a few for FIRS, but not like JGRPP does
23:49:51 <frosch123> i wondered about a "developer burnout" post to reddit. telling people if they want to continue to enjoy X, they have to actively try to reduce the support questions to developer of X, and in particular stop sending noobs their way
23:50:12 <frosch123> but i am not sure whether people actually read stuff on reddit
23:50:51 <frosch123> sometimes there is the same question/topic by multiple people in the newest 5 topics
23:51:12 <_dp_> frosch123, make a picture :p
23:51:56 <glx> or a text in notepad video
23:52:50 <glx> text tutorials but in a video
23:53:20 <andythenorth> I enjoyed the 'what grfs can I use?' question in title game post
23:53:22 <frosch123> sounds like it would need voice over
23:53:58 <glx> oh no need for sound, there's many tutorials like that on youtube
23:54:16 <andythenorth> such developer, very burnout
23:54:23 <andythenorth> much noob, such rage quit
23:57:50 <andythenorth> did I fix FIRS yet?
23:58:37 <andythenorth> if I do all my todos, I can ship it :P
23:59:18 <TrueBrain> unless 1 todo creates 2 more todos
23:59:38 *** Smedles has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
