IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-02-17
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03:15:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Quipyowert2 opened pull request #8007: Codechange: Avoid copying function parameters by using const references https://git.io/Jv8iW
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03:38:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Quipyowert2 updated pull request #8007: Codechange: Avoid copying function parameters by using const references https://git.io/Jv8iW
03:41:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Quipyowert2 commented on pull request #8007: Codechange: Avoid copying function parameters by using const references https://git.io/Jv8i7
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08:47:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8007: Codechange: Avoid copying function parameters by using const references https://git.io/Jv89v
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09:15:32 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #8007: Codechange: Avoid copying function parameters by using const references https://git.io/Jv8iW
09:43:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7337: Audio driver crash on quit - fluidsynth/SDL https://git.io/fhpg0
09:50:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14) https://git.io/Jv8HC
09:56:26 * andythenorth wonders how to help spnda
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15:26:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker commented on issue #80: openttd_version: OpenTTD var 21/1A result has changed since OpenTTD moved to git https://git.io/JvchK
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16:21:25 <planetmaker> Hi andythenorth :)
16:22:01 <planetmaker> vars 0x70 0x71: shouldn't we go for slight deprecation period? Or are they not deprecated, but really unusable?
16:22:37 <andythenorth> this just fixes an oversight from previoius 16 cargo commits
16:22:53 <planetmaker> Ok, I thought so... but wasn't sure
16:23:11 <andythenorth> I don't actually know about deprecation perioid, I'm just following precedent
16:23:31 <andythenorth> but anyway coding an industry set relying on those 2 old vars is going to be in an odd world :)
16:23:48 <andythenorth> all the other similar vars have gone
16:23:53 <andythenorth> I bet I find FIRS uses them now :P
16:27:45 <planetmaker> (how far can one go with 2-letter conversations? :P)
16:35:12 <andythenorth> oof prop 0x70 docs
16:35:32 <andythenorth> the old vars had "amount of output cargo that is produced every 256 ticks. Initial value from the prod_multiplier-property, but it will change accordingly when the production level changes."
16:35:39 <andythenorth> but prod_multiplier is deprecated in 0.5
16:35:59 <andythenorth> I'm assuming it now should refer to 'cargo_types'
16:36:05 <andythenorth> but I don't really understand the relationship
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16:37:35 <andythenorth> wondering how to document it (for nfo or nml both)
16:38:41 <andythenorth> I never really understood production_rate_1 or production_rate_2
16:40:05 <andythenorth> to be more accurate, I never understood their purpose, the maths is fine and really obvious
16:40:27 <andythenorth> I suppose it's for running down reserves or something
16:40:34 <andythenorth> or just an artefact of original TTD
16:42:15 <andythenorth> anyway, I'm betting it can just refer to cargo_types :P
17:00:08 <planetmaker> dunno whether it was ever implemented in NML... so no action needed?
17:00:22 <planetmaker> nfo... grfcodec probably should warn
17:04:04 <FLHerne> andythenorth: FWIW, I think the grfspecs should document the deprecated vars, so people can make sense of existing grfs that use them
17:04:17 <FLHerne> (but then I'm not volunteering to write those docs, so meh)
17:04:29 <spnda> nielsm: Hi, I saw your review on pr #7955 and I am not quite sure what you mean. You mentioned I need to use the override keyword on that ResolveReal function.
17:04:39 <andythenorth> so strictly are documented
17:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: in the olden days, C++ would just implicitly figure out "override", but in newer versions, it's suggested to do this explicitly
17:07:36 <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: because there's like 3 different ways to do it, and it may be tricky to see at a glance which one is used
17:08:08 <spnda> hmm ok, though I have no idea which one to use.
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17:08:26 <spnda> I saw NRT also still uses /* virtual */
17:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: yeah, old code is not necessarily updated this way
17:09:22 <planetmaker> specs should continue to mention them - as deprecated
17:09:46 <spnda> Eddi|zuHause: So should I just leave it? I mean, that's what nielsm explicitely requested in his review.
17:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: i don't know your code or the review
17:10:19 <nielsm> even if your code is copy-pasted it's still new code and should be updated :)
17:10:56 <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: but people going "i have no clue which onee to use" is precisely the problem trying to be solved.
17:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: the developer should spend the 5 minutes to read up what are the sublte differences
17:14:27 <spnda> differences between which options though? I'm still not to experienced with all different ways to do something in C++, so I'd have trouble figuring stuff out.
17:16:06 <planetmaker> thus it makes it a compile-time error when there's no base function to override - which the old way /* virtual */ would not do. It would simply and silently create a new method in the derived class
17:18:06 <spnda> Well, isn't that actually what I am doing anyway? In my declaration of RoadStopResolverObject I mark it as a const override. Which my definition in c++ doesn't change, does it?
17:19:22 <nielsm> okay I see you do have override in the class declaration
17:19:44 <nielsm> but iirc you should also have it on the function definition, don't remember for sure though
17:19:55 <planetmaker> does it hurt to repeat?
17:20:02 <spnda> it doesn't compile then
17:24:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14) https://git.io/Jv4fc
17:27:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda commented on pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14) https://git.io/Jv4fB
17:36:39 <andythenorth> does anyone know how to actually fetch the sprites yet? :)
17:49:09 <FLHerne> I notice the NML operator >>> isn't documented
17:50:46 <FLHerne> (also, why is there no corresponding <<< operator?)
17:51:09 <FLHerne> Hang on, SHIFTU_LEFT is <<
17:51:51 <FLHerne> But SHIFT_LEFT is also <<
17:52:18 <FLHerne> Does it not matter for reasons?
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17:59:17 <planetmaker> I believe the shift operator simply ignores sign... so don't use it on signed numbers. Not sure though.
17:59:54 <planetmaker> shift is a bit operation after all, ignoring any interpretation of the bits as number or otherwise
18:01:59 <FLHerne> Well, both NFO and NML have different operators where the only difference is "but source1 is considered signed"
18:05:44 <FLHerne> I think the "signed" version of shift_right fills with the sign bit, whereas ushift_right fills with zero?
18:05:56 <andythenorth> oops wrong link I'm an idiot ;)
18:06:05 <planetmaker> it should not fill with sign bit but simply exclude the sign bit
18:06:53 <planetmaker> in both cases actually, shifting left or right
18:07:13 <planetmaker> or is my thinking wrong on this?
18:09:48 <FLHerne> So I tried to look up what that actually means
18:11:12 <FLHerne> I think your thinking is wrong on this, if it's 2's-complement?
18:18:34 <andythenorth> not sure how to document that :P
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18:23:28 <spnda> Anyone know what I might be doing wrong? I'd love to continue making my patch but this is really annoying...
18:23:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #83: Support for industry vars 0x70 and 0x71 needed. https://git.io/Jv8gN
18:40:34 <planetmaker> yes, that would actually be tremendous
18:42:01 <planetmaker> but not today... when the new coop fileserver runs well on the new system, then yes :)
18:42:48 <planetmaker> it's a frigging TB of files on it...
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19:15:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda commented on pull request #7955: WIP Feature: NewGRF Road Stops (Feature 14) https://git.io/Jv4TB
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19:28:53 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grv87 commented on issue #7998: Assertion failed at line 111 of src\core\pool_type.hpp https://git.io/JvWFY
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19:33:54 <^Spike^> i'll fix the cert in a moment.... :)
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19:36:43 <^Spike^> you identified, to kill your znc user? XD
19:37:39 <planetmaker> no ... but... but...!
19:37:47 <planetmaker> it will regain :)
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21:01:47 <spnda> Trying to get some basics done for NMLC and.... "Directly referring to sprite sets is not possible for feature 14". What does that even mean? I don't recall you ever needing a switch or whatever to pass to "default:"
21:04:39 <frosch123> some features also have spritegroups
21:05:05 <frosch123> specifically vehicles and stations
21:05:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #85: Change: industry tiles and houses now support 16 accepted cargos https://git.io/Jv4tu
21:05:47 <andythenorth> planetmaker: new server? o_O
21:05:54 <frosch123> oh, and other features have spritelayouts
21:06:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: new certificate at least
21:06:16 <spnda> well, I am using spritegroups
21:06:41 <andythenorth> I've checked ~most of NML NRT
21:07:06 <andythenorth> "RoadVeh property 1C flag 0 new meaning" I didn't dig far enough to know what's changed with that, it's the 'I am a tram' flag iirc
21:07:15 <frosch123> i used your cyan and also added an entry in the ottd column
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21:07:21 <andythenorth> Action 7/9 condition 0F..12 I have NFI about
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21:07:55 <andythenorth> the Action 5 I haven't tried to understand yet
21:08:00 <andythenorth> all varact 2 I've checked
21:08:03 <frosch123> property 1c flag 0 is tightly attached to property 05
21:08:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, meaning to for long time. Now taking on actual form
21:08:20 <frosch123> property 05 references an entry in either the road or the tram translation table
21:08:25 <frosch123> 1c flag 0 decides which
21:08:44 <frosch123> both info needs to get combined somewhere, otherwise noone will get it :)
21:09:45 <frosch123> it would probably be a common mistake to put a tram label into 05 in nml, forget 1c, and then wonder why the vehicle is unavailable due to invalid road type
21:10:34 <andythenorth> in a parallel universe, TTDP added trams as a new type on the same tile
21:10:42 <andythenorth> unfortunately we got this universe :P
21:10:54 <frosch123> then there is also the compatibility layer, if you do not set property 05, then 1c decides between ROAD and ELRL
21:11:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think i read somewhere that trams were pikka's idea/fault
21:12:47 <spnda> Am I seeing this wrong or are spritegroups always either loading: or loaded:? (in nml & nfo)
21:13:22 <frosch123> let's say spritegroups put spritesets into two categories :)
21:13:46 <frosch123> for vehicles they are called "moving"/"loading", for stations "little"/"lots"
21:14:01 <frosch123> maybe some call "moving" also "loaded", but imo thats weird
21:14:02 <spnda> what's "little"/"lots" in stations?
21:14:18 <frosch123> do you know gradual loading for vehicles?
21:14:40 <spnda> well, I could think of what it could be
21:15:09 <frosch123> vehicle shows different sprite for different percentage loaded, sprites are assigned via a linear mapping
21:15:39 <frosch123> stations have the same for waiting cargo, but the mapping is not linear, but two separate sections of linear
21:15:41 <spnda> Oh like some stations use that to show the amount of passengers waiting at a station
21:15:58 <frosch123> vehicle provide sprites for 0%, 25%, 50%, 100%
21:16:20 <frosch123> stations provide sprites for 0, 50, 100, 150, (break), 500, 1000, 1500
21:16:30 <frosch123> the first range is "little" the second "lots"
21:16:38 <spnda> Ah ok I think I see it now
21:16:45 <spnda> How is it assigned though (in NFO for stations)?
21:17:09 <frosch123> the numbers i used are examples, newgrf can define how many steps they want
21:17:36 <spnda> Ah I see on the wiki I can define the amount of little and the amount of lots.
21:18:09 <frosch123> the action 0 property defines the threshold between little and lots
21:18:32 <frosch123> the action2 (or "spritegroup") defines N spritesets to each
21:19:15 <spnda> For Action0, you mean cargo_threshold?
21:19:28 <frosch123> anyway, old stuff. newer features used va2 instead of hard-coded a2 choices
21:20:07 <frosch123> nml doesn't have stations, so there is only nfo name (property 10), is there?
21:20:58 <frosch123> the second link above
21:23:18 <spnda> Oh and va2 is called deterministic sprite group in the openttd code, well then
21:26:19 <andythenorth> glx did an nml PR :)
21:26:36 <andythenorth> I am not competent to review that one :P
21:27:08 <frosch123> spnda: essentially, the old (pre 2005) grf stuff (vehicles and stations), used spritegroups to choose between different sprites using a fixed criterion
21:27:12 <glx> yeah, I needed to remove syntax options for houses, I hope nobody used them
21:27:39 <glx> (they are not in the doc anyway, just in regression)
21:27:50 <spnda> frosch123: and now we use va2?
21:27:56 <spnda> also, any NML examples of va2?
21:27:57 <frosch123> after 2005 deterministic VA2 was added to pick sprites depending on a multitude of criterions
21:28:08 <frosch123> va2 is "switch" in nml :)
21:28:10 <andythenorth> 85 is the last 2 things to make nml support OpenTTD 1.9.0 :)
21:28:17 <andythenorth> just in time for 1.10 :D
21:28:38 <glx> nml 0.5 will support only openttd anyway
21:29:07 <frosch123> i wondered whether nml 0.5 should use a new binary name "nml5" or so
21:29:35 <frosch123> currently i have to switch symlinks, when i want to compile different firs versions :)
21:29:55 <glx> yeah 0.4 syntax is not compatible with 0.5 syntax
21:30:08 <frosch123> but debian packager will kill us :)
21:31:08 <frosch123> hmm, or nml could get some compatibility layer
21:31:23 <frosch123> read old nml, write grf using new stuff
21:31:47 <spnda> +glx: Did the syntax change in a big way, or just slighlty?
21:32:14 <glx> mainly some variable names
21:32:18 <frosch123> enough that you cannot compile any industry set, except one firs branch
21:33:36 <frosch123> hmm, i guess compatibility layer is quite hard for the production callback
21:33:53 <andythenorth> the nml industry page is now borderline lolz
21:33:57 <andythenorth> we basically have 2 APIs
21:34:19 <glx> for example nml#84 removed some vars and replaced with a more useful one
21:34:35 <glx> hard to write compatibility layer for that I think
21:34:57 <andythenorth> it's ok if you self-build nml and can switch versions :P
21:35:17 * andythenorth never needs to build old FIRS anyway
21:36:18 <glx> at least with nml#85 I could keep the syntax :)
21:36:30 <glx> but it's not always possible
21:37:30 <frosch123> nml master stops at 81?
21:38:52 <frosch123> oh, it's not merged ...
21:39:44 <andythenorth> wait no too many GH tabs :(
21:39:53 <andythenorth> I have about 25 tabs open for NML crap at the moment :)
21:39:53 <spnda> So, I've edited NML a bit, but can't really figure out if I want to do sprite groups or sprite layouts... I'll need to come up with something tomorrow, when I am in my C++ code.
21:40:11 <spnda> I hope I understand this better tomorrow... It's kinda confusing for someone who only made basic trains before
21:40:16 <spnda> Yeah thought so too andy
21:40:26 <andythenorth> needs to follow industries and objects imho
21:40:46 <andythenorth> I could be talking out of my bum though, I am prone to misunderstanding :P
21:41:07 <glx> spnda: first step is to determine a spec :)
21:41:15 <spnda> For now it's similar to stations and objects, but I'll need to go into the code further and change things around..
21:41:58 * andythenorth wonders about NML RFCs
21:42:03 <andythenorth> massive overkill? :P
21:42:05 <frosch123> usually i look at other features, collect what is similar, and then decide "also wanted, similar api", "also wanted, but different api", "not wanted"
21:42:09 <spnda> +glx: I've got a basic spec ready. I wanted to get a basic spec done and then add more features later.
21:42:20 <spnda> Exactly what I did frosch
21:42:30 <spnda> But I'll have to go now, so bye.
21:42:43 <glx> yeah the best way is to find and use similar existing stuff
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22:49:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7998: Assertion failed at line 111 of src\core\pool_type.hpp https://git.io/JvWFY
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23:30:21 <planetmaker> nah, I'd not rename nml binary.
23:30:29 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 8 years, 19 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 11 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
23:33:07 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> [20:40:26] needs to follow industries and objects imho <-- for anything new in NewGRF land, that's a good choice, IMHO
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