IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-01-13
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07:18:54 <crazystacy> hm. just noticed that timidity(?) is eating up all my cpu when i enabled music
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08:24:29 <andythenorth> so my big cdist network is....realistic
08:27:48 <andythenorth> 8 big cities connected by a fast spine
08:28:17 <andythenorth> 7 peripheral small towns
08:28:34 <andythenorth> trams, metro, buses, local trains or ships as feeders
08:29:33 <andythenorth> town growth is nerfed (towns can't build roads, growth setting is 'slow')
08:30:28 <andythenorth> it all works great, except lots of my vehicles lose money
08:30:38 <andythenorth> due to negative transfer income :D
08:31:02 <andythenorth> in some cases, the more I faff with orders to make them travel loaded, the more money they lose :D
08:31:23 <andythenorth> and if I scrap them, there are fewer pax on the network, so my other trains earn less
08:31:36 <andythenorth> Pikka: very realism, transport network effects :x ^
08:32:15 <andythenorth> it's like every case study ever about crtitical mass in a metro system
08:32:36 <Pikka> it's still more fun to leave cdist off imo ;)
08:32:45 <andythenorth> I was testing how broken it is
08:32:55 <andythenorth> it's quite broken
08:33:45 <andythenorth> it's basically cdist, with weirdly unsettling procedural music
08:33:53 <Pikka> not for a very long time
08:35:03 <andythenorth> also lots of Horse trains are losing money
08:35:20 <Pikka> horse seems quite expensive to run
08:38:17 <andythenorth> everything is scaled using railcar costs as base
08:38:28 <andythenorth> but only for point-point, fully loaded :x
08:38:46 <andythenorth> I didn't account for transfer negative income or frequent part-load
08:39:53 <andythenorth> so....complicated variable running costs then? :D
08:42:53 <Pikka> simple variable is nice, 1/4 when stationary. makes little industrial shunts viable.
08:48:54 <andythenorth> they're betweeen 10% and 50% higher than UKRS 3
08:49:03 <andythenorth> for pretty equivalent stats
08:54:50 <andythenorth> is that manually decided, or a formula?
08:56:12 <Pikka> formula, fiddled til it gave reasonable numbers :)
08:56:28 <Pikka> 10 + ((Tons * 50) + (HP * 30) / 1500) - ((Intro Year - 1900) / 10) + (Capacity / 10)
08:56:37 <Pikka> 10 + ((MPH * 400) + (HP * 25) / 1500) - ((Intro Year - 1900) / 10) + (Capacity / 10)
08:57:09 <andythenorth> looks long, but it's mostly comments
08:57:33 <andythenorth> approach is ~same as yours, magic numbers vary
08:58:22 <andythenorth> so I deliberately scaled railcar costs
08:58:37 <andythenorth> otherwise there is a logical conclusion that all trains should just be railcars
08:58:53 <andythenorth> but I might have to tweak
08:59:14 <Pikka> mine uses the same formula for everything. Railcars cost more because of the passenger capacity, but less because they're invariably underpowered
09:22:13 <crazystacy> i tried to add japanese town/city names, but it's still the default
09:22:16 <crazystacy> can't change in settings either
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09:42:58 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7729: Add #7525: Allow autoreplace with same model vehicle https://git.io/JvJTB
10:35:04 <Pikka> crazystacy, activate the grf, then change the town names in "game options"
10:35:27 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] auge8472 commented on pull request #7729: Add #7525: Allow autoreplace with same model vehicle https://git.io/JvJkJ
10:35:36 <Pikka> changing town names is a bit of a faff, but that's legacy TTD UI stuff :)
10:39:08 <andythenorth> 101 in UKRS 99: 80 pax, 600hp, 70mph, £7175 / year
10:39:33 <andythenorth> 101 in Horse: 80 pax, 600hp, 75mph, £8388 / year
10:40:31 * andythenorth can't remember if base cost changes are grf local
10:41:10 <Pikka> I think they are unless the grf contains no vehicles, or some magic like that
10:41:36 <andythenorth> seems I don't mess up your costs with Horse, so that's ok
10:41:48 * andythenorth considers renaming it Horsie-Worsie
10:42:20 <andythenorth> anyway that railcar is my baseline model for costs, so I'll adjust it to match UKRS
10:42:47 <crazystacy> Pikka, i can't change town names
10:42:49 <andythenorth> of the evils, 'printing money' is less bad than 'my sandbox trains make negative profits'
10:42:51 <crazystacy> "japanese" is greyed out
10:42:55 <crazystacy> it's on the top but grey
10:43:02 <crazystacy> oh. i have to change before i start?
10:43:23 <Pikka> yes, you can't change the town names in a running game :)
10:43:50 <crazystacy> yeah that's what confused me. i didn't know where the not in game game options was
10:44:08 <crazystacy> i never even noticed the AI/Game script button, or Highscore, or anything, until now
10:44:40 <crazystacy> hmm. another question. i am trying to get a really mountainous map with water. so basically just water and mountains. no flat ground. but even with alpinist + high water it's mostly flat fields :/
10:44:44 <crazystacy> and max height is 50
10:45:24 <Pikka> try fiddling with "variety distribution" and "smoothness"
10:46:05 <Pikka> lower variety distribution will give you a more consistenly hilly map
10:46:43 <crazystacy> i was on this german "hard server" which was basically just hills
10:46:46 <crazystacy> maybe i can get a heightmap
10:47:02 <crazystacy> ah. variety was it. i had it to high
10:47:15 <andythenorth> Pikka: buy menu run cost is £7175, when travelling (unloaded) it's £7000, probably fine, but expected?
10:50:18 <andythenorth> oof, now my pax coaches are too expensive
10:51:04 <andythenorth> railcar costs same as coach to run
10:51:40 <andythenorth> Pikka: you are very generous with wagon costs :D
10:52:34 <Pikka> hah, HST super cheap to run... there's a bug there somewhere. :)
10:56:15 <Pikka> oh, no, the HST isn't bugged. I was looking at the wrong number.
10:58:50 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 2.67469879518
10:59:03 <Pikka> just the 101, no idea why. :)
10:59:03 <andythenorth> my wagons are ~3x more to run
11:03:41 <Pikka> the 101, 1959 EMU and BREL EMU cost slightly less to run
11:03:51 <Pikka> I bet it's a rounding error with double-headed locos and the callback
11:04:18 <Pikka> those three all have odd-number running costs, so they lose one
11:04:30 <Pikka> the IC125 and sprinter are even numbers so they're fine
11:08:29 <Pikka> I could bump them up by 1. Or just assume no-one but you will look that closely :)
11:09:17 <Pikka> I wonder if it's not even the callback, if that's a bug that affects double-headed trains in general? :)
11:13:12 <andythenorth> I only noticed because I'm comparing across 2 grfs :P
11:41:16 <crazystacy> hmm, YETI sure is interesting :P
11:55:16 <crazystacy> i think it said you made it?
11:55:31 <crazystacy> oh. pikka made something else
11:55:45 <crazystacy> as i said that i bit into a tomato and got juice all over my wall and laptop screen
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11:56:50 * andythenorth makes Horses cheaper
11:57:59 <crazystacy> which is the grf with actual horses?
11:58:06 <crazystacy> i tried a server like that, it was quite gruelling
12:03:40 <hythlodaeus> I appreciate the people who try to make openTTD an historical game, but why would you attempt to operate a transportation company using only horse carriages is beyond me :D
12:04:05 <crazystacy> well i really really liked it until i realised how slow they were. if i was going to play a 2000 hour endless game i would want them
12:04:09 <crazystacy> it really adds flavour
12:04:23 <crazystacy> problem was on that server i couldn't even afford a locomotive so i had to start with horses and trams :|
12:05:06 <hythlodaeus> so much for the self-starting little man heh?
12:05:26 <crazystacy> but surely industries basically relied on horses 100 years ago
12:05:53 <crazystacy> doesn't make sense to have buses and trucks if you start around 1900
12:06:25 <crazystacy> i find it hard to decide which newgrfs to use, i'm worried i'll realise later i wnat another and have to start over my epic game
12:06:37 <hythlodaeus> yeah, but there were no mass transportation companies like today
12:06:43 <hythlodaeus> except for ship companies
12:07:24 <hythlodaeus> so a lot of transportation was handled by business owners themselves
12:07:41 <crazystacy> well sure, perfect for your beer brewing company
12:07:48 <crazystacy> hmm. is there a beer industry?
12:08:08 <hythlodaeus> in openttd? not as far as i am aware of
12:08:52 <hythlodaeus> I can imagine a late 19th century game of trains, horse carriages and ships would be a viable one, but it would resemble reality too much, in the sense that growth would be quite slow
12:13:21 <hythlodaeus> in reality, also, horse carriages would serve a lot of functions simultaneously. A passenger coach would for instance be used for transporting people, mail, and some valuables simultaneously
12:13:48 <hythlodaeus> i don't assume you can have that on openttd
12:14:50 <crazystacy> oh. this japanese theme needs those guys running with carts
12:15:06 <crazystacy> the acceleration is not great on the horses hm
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12:42:42 <Pikka> more HST farm trains :P
12:48:12 <andythenorth> much as I'm a slave to absolute realism
12:48:18 <andythenorth> I think we should put in more ways to mess stuff up
12:49:55 <Pikka> ah, it's because of the hill, and it overvalues HP rather than TE for hillclimbing ;)
12:50:26 <Pikka> I like at 1:10 where the white train derails before they hit
12:50:27 <andythenorth> the AI knows best
12:50:52 <andythenorth> TE does nothing anyway
12:51:22 <Pikka> if you have freighttrains turned up it improves hill climbing a lot, I think?
12:51:59 <andythenorth> in my test, it's only effective when your train has insufficient HP to maintain speed on the hill
12:52:15 <andythenorth> it then adjusts what the minimum speed your train will make up the hill
12:52:25 <Pikka> which all trains do, if you turn the cargo weight up ;)
12:53:32 <andythenorth> we should add gearing :P
12:59:53 * andythenorth running HST and Brush 4 up a 20 tile slope with 520t trains (brake vans)
13:03:14 <andythenorth> now 2 rats + 2 choppers vs. HST
13:11:52 <andythenorth> hmm HST is much slower out of the depot
13:15:14 <andythenorth> Why Am I Doing This :D ®
13:18:02 <andythenorth> so diesalisation in 1995 game year? o_O
13:19:19 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth commented on pull request #143: Update: bump all Python dependencies to latest version https://git.io/JvJq6
13:22:25 <hythlodaeus> that lego train crash video is filmed in a way like if it is someone's fetish
13:23:20 <andythenorth> most YT videos are
13:23:33 <andythenorth> or at least the ones that get algorithmically recommended *
13:23:51 <zvxb> i watch your guys youtube vids and i stop wanting to play
13:23:59 <zvxb> your train networks are leet and mine are shit
13:24:41 <andythenorth> my 9 year old looks on my screen and is like "why can you build like that?"
13:24:53 <andythenorth> and I am like "dunno, why *can't* you, what's wrong with you?"
13:25:00 * andythenorth parenting skills
13:25:47 <hythlodaeus> I can't even afford such insane amount of lego tracks
13:26:05 <hythlodaeus> they're quite expensive
13:26:20 <andythenorth> unless you want curves
13:26:27 <andythenorth> curves, people give away :P
13:27:08 <hythlodaeus> you can buy fake chinese lego tracks, but they will be differently coloured, and you need to order in bulk to make shipping viable
13:28:32 <andythenorth> I did a lego survey last year, they had specific questions about 3rd party tracks
13:28:57 <andythenorth> it looked like they might be considering how they can allow 3rd parties to solve the track problem
13:29:36 <andythenorth> since they bought bricklink, one of the 3rd party track sellers has been told by Lego they will be allowed to continue selling
13:29:54 <andythenorth> this is for alternative track parts, not copies of Lego official parts
13:31:28 <andythenorth> thought you'd never ask
13:31:33 <andythenorth> I've been surviving on cookies
13:31:56 <peter1138> Today's lunch is also breakfast.
13:32:35 <hythlodaeus> it's rly tragic, because lego trains are quite affordable considering the prices of actual quality model trains
13:33:05 <hythlodaeus> you pay 100 euros (80/90 if discounted) for a quality train and all necessary power bits
13:33:54 <hythlodaeus> and you got yourself something that can be used and reassembled easily, is highly durable and customizeable
13:34:28 <hythlodaeus> that is great for kids and adults alike
13:34:49 <hythlodaeus> but the track prices rly do kill it
13:34:59 <peter1138> Toys vs models though innit.
13:37:31 <hythlodaeus> models are only affordable by people with way too much time and money
13:38:19 <hythlodaeus> I used to live next to a Marklin store, it's insane the prices they charge
13:38:31 <hythlodaeus> I know all their suff is handpainted but
13:39:16 <hythlodaeus> who is willing to pay 200 euro for a single locomotive?
13:40:14 <hythlodaeus> I envy your disposable budget then ahah
13:43:50 <hythlodaeus> but it's why I think projects like openttd are so cool. they allow anyone to have a highly detailed virtual experience of transportation entirely free of charge and that you can modify to your own tastes. and it runs on any crappy computer
13:46:41 * andythenorth might be accidentally a boomer
13:47:10 <andythenorth> although I'm the last year of gen x
13:47:20 <andythenorth> between boomers and whatever the other buzzword is today
13:47:32 <andythenorth> so we're here in the middle, trying to sort all the fricking mess out
13:48:07 <hythlodaeus> last year of gen x is 80/81
13:48:17 <Pikka> doesn't "boomer" just mean "anyone with a more nuanced view of the world than me" these days?
13:48:41 <hythlodaeus> I think he means "that 30 year old boomer" meme
13:49:52 <andythenorth> Pikka: not sure, I can't keep up :)
13:50:07 <Pikka> that's probably a symptom :)
13:50:25 <andythenorth> hythlodaeus I am 1978 or so
13:50:40 <hythlodaeus> you're gen X then
13:50:45 <andythenorth> I discount 1979 because of younger siblings, who are clearly not gen x
13:51:01 <hythlodaeus> millennials is 81 onwards
13:51:20 <andythenorth> how did that word ever stick?
13:51:35 <hythlodaeus> better than gen Y i guess
13:51:37 <andythenorth> and what happened to gen y?
13:51:42 <andythenorth> gen y is just lost?
13:52:02 <hythlodaeus> no, it's the alternative name for millennials
13:52:14 <hythlodaeus> cuz you got gen z after that
13:52:28 <hythlodaeus> which we just call zoomers these days
13:52:48 <Pikka> people sure do love to categorise themselves :)
13:53:25 <hythlodaeus> it's just a way of better illustrating generational conflict
13:53:40 * andythenorth is confused by all of it
13:54:04 <andythenorth> I first encountered millenial around 2010, as 'people who are entering the workforce now'
13:54:08 <andythenorth> which puts them about 1990 birth
13:54:22 <andythenorth> I fear that 50% gen y are now just lost
13:54:36 <andythenorth> maybe that's the *real* issue
13:54:37 <hythlodaeus> no no, 1990 onwards are zoomers
13:54:44 <hythlodaeus> millennials is 81 to 1990
13:54:54 <andythenorth> millenial was just invented marketing bolllocks in 2010
13:55:01 <andythenorth> I used to work in advertising :P
13:55:13 <hythlodaeus> it's the name that stuck tho
13:55:18 <hythlodaeus> so you gotta roll with it
13:55:48 <zvxb> that whole generation is lost within that time frame
13:55:52 <milek7_> why there is any need for weird categorisation?
13:55:58 <andythenorth> taxonomies are weird
13:55:59 <zvxb> year 2000's was such a huge culture clash
13:56:03 <andythenorth> it's usually just invented to sell ads
13:56:13 <andythenorth> not even to sell product, literally to sell ads
13:57:18 <zvxb> i graduated from high school and hated that shit.. kids sucked.. got made fun of for anything and everything
13:57:22 <zvxb> but even music back then
13:57:24 <hythlodaeus> milek7_: because social and technological transformations from the 20th century onwards means different generation experience wholly different realities every 10 years or so
13:57:42 <andythenorth> I can write a deck, saying 'generation foo works like this' then pitch for your $50m strategy account
13:57:52 <zvxb> limp bisket, britney spears, backstreet boys, eminem.... if i choose the wrong genre of music to listen to i'm gay
13:57:55 <andythenorth> then the media planner says 'these are properties where we can buy ads for generation foo'
13:58:01 <zvxb> it's why you have so many emotional fucks from that era
13:58:10 <zvxb> who can't get their shit together into their 30's
13:59:12 <andythenorth> it was all much easier when petrol had lead in it
13:59:45 <andythenorth> everyone was brain damaged and there was no emotion
13:59:49 <zvxb> my grandfather says the same thing about women before rights
14:00:54 <hythlodaeus> beat 'em with a stick i says
14:01:04 <hythlodaeus> put 'em ina burlap sack
14:01:18 <zvxb> i was trying to buy lunch at a chipolte and this mom had 3 kids screaming the entire time... each one of them had a tablet with games on it
14:01:47 <hythlodaeus> what does that have to do with tablets tho
14:01:58 <zvxb> spoiled kids is all i'm saying
14:02:08 <zvxb> imagine who they'll be when they're older
14:02:16 <hythlodaeus> it sounds more like you just dislike children in general
14:02:51 <zvxb> my mom constantly spat out kids and being the oldest i always had to take care of them
14:03:04 <andythenorth> oof irc-as-therapy :P
14:03:07 <andythenorth> are we licensed?
14:03:24 <hythlodaeus> I'm sorry for your situation
14:03:26 <zvxb> i'm just a fan of wiping your own ass is all
14:03:29 <andythenorth> peter1138: I shall now describe lunch
14:03:52 <andythenorth> toasted sourdough wheat-free bread (don't ask)
14:03:58 <andythenorth> cathedral city cheddar
14:04:06 <andythenorth> and some kind of germanic thin ham
14:04:22 <andythenorth> stacked in that order, then toasted more
14:04:44 <andythenorth> I don't know if it's a toastie, cheese on toast, or an open toasted sandwich
14:04:53 <andythenorth> it might even be croque monsieur
14:04:59 <hythlodaeus> sounds like a fancy grilled cheese
14:05:34 <hythlodaeus> was it real cheddar tho? i can never find that on supermarkets around here
14:05:39 <hythlodaeus> and i love it on nachos
14:05:58 <andythenorth> from cheddar gorge
14:06:04 <hythlodaeus> sounds pretty good then
14:06:06 <andythenorth> or at least within a few hundred miles :P
14:06:40 <hythlodaeus> i had home made blueberry pancakes for breakfast with real maple syrup
14:06:55 <hythlodaeus> for lunch is leftover bean curry + basmati rice
14:07:36 <FLHerne> Hm, I used to get Cathedral City often, but then I found that Waitrose own-brand is both cheaper and nicer
14:07:41 <FLHerne> (it's much less squishy)
14:07:59 <FLHerne> But right now I have co-op cheddar because Waitrose was closed yesterday :P
14:08:09 <andythenorth> I am not an especial fan of CC, it's just what we seem to get
14:30:01 <peter1138> andythenorth, delightful.
14:31:07 <Samu> oops there is a bug in savegame conversion in lifetime profit
14:31:52 <peter1138> My lunch/breakfast consisted of... two small slices of corn bread (frozen for several months) containing a small slaver of almond butter but not enough to have any flavour over the corn bread... 1 stick of celery, some yellow pepper, 3 sugarsnap peas, 3 cherry tomatoes, 1 spring onion, 1 pack of seranno ham "crisps" (WAY TOO SALTY) and a mug of blackcurrent lemsip-like.
14:33:26 <peter1138> hythlodaeus, cheddar is the standard cheese around these parts, usually in different strenghs.
14:34:08 <andythenorth> peter1138: quite balanced
14:34:25 <hythlodaeus> ah yes, i forgot I was talking with brits.
14:35:21 <hythlodaeus> real cheddar is hard to find here for some reason.
14:35:25 <peter1138> Where is here for you?
14:35:39 <hythlodaeus> i'm not dutch though
14:35:42 <peter1138> I like a strong cheddar. Mild stuff can stay on the shelf.
14:36:09 <peter1138> You probably have all manner of lovely Dutch cheese available though.
14:36:20 <hythlodaeus> i don't like dutch cheese
14:36:26 <peter1138> Whereas we just get offered Edam and, if we're lucky, Gouda.
14:37:17 <Samu> i guess I better do that
14:37:20 <peter1138> If it's a fix within your PR, yes.
14:39:38 <peter1138> andythenorth, also 3 milkybar mini eggs.
14:39:49 <andythenorth> maintains an even strain
14:40:31 <peter1138> Well, somehow I seem to eat more than everyone else here, at least for lunch. :/
14:40:50 <peter1138> Hmm, probably shouldn't've had the sweets. That'll want me eating more.
14:42:24 <andythenorth> ha ha, I now understand openttd waypoints :P
14:42:30 <andythenorth> and path oddness
14:42:45 <andythenorth> if a train has an order to a waypoint
14:42:52 <andythenorth> and there is a depot beyond the waypoint
14:42:57 <andythenorth> and the train goes for service
14:43:21 <andythenorth> it (correctly) doesn't clear the waypoint order
14:43:34 <andythenorth> but then it sits waiting for a path in depot
14:43:47 <andythenorth> well if it was a station order, it would be correct
14:43:57 <andythenorth> and I'm assuming waypoint orders are just a hack on stations
14:44:28 <Samu> on second though, this conversion is still a bit wrong, it's only a best guess
14:44:29 <andythenorth> but strictly, it did pass through the waypoint
14:45:47 <Samu> when a vehicle is renewed, it gets lifetimeprofits reset to £0, but last year profits are still kept
14:46:16 <Samu> so, on savegame conversion, i can't just equal it to last years profits, just like that, i need to make sure the vehicle is already 1 year old
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14:48:02 <Samu> what is the right thing to do
14:48:47 <Samu> lifetime = 0 for savegame conversion to every vehicle?
14:49:02 <Samu> or do this partial conversion
14:49:09 <Samu> only 1 year old vehicles get converted
14:58:06 <Samu> as burty had, only 1+ year old, or all?
15:02:19 <Samu> imagine a new feature for savegame conversion, players had a choice how to convert some stuff
15:16:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's not really correct for stations either
15:17:03 <FLHerne> (it doesn't call at the station the first time, but it ought to)
15:22:43 <peter1138> It should, perhaps, delay the service. I dunno.
15:45:32 <Samu> i renew a vehicle in august 1985, it inherits last year profit of £100,000
15:46:16 <Samu> at the start of 1986, its last year profit is £120,000
15:46:48 <Samu> vehicle turns 1 year old in august 1986, its last year profit is £120,000
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16:18:19 <planetmaker> not sure we can help you think ;)
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16:48:00 <crazystacy> is there some grf which shrinks all vehicles and so on?
16:50:13 <Samu> is more complicated than I though
16:51:09 <Samu> i should just compare the dates
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17:12:14 <Samu> /* Renewing vehicles resets lifetime profits to zero and
17:12:14 <Samu> * inherits last year profits from their predecessors.
17:12:14 <Samu> * Using their last year profits to best guess lifetime
17:12:14 <Samu> * profits falls into the wrong side, unless the vehicles
17:12:14 <Samu> * have already gone through one entire calendar year. */
17:14:10 <nielsm> the meaning is perfectly clear at least
17:18:32 <Samu> the dilema still stands though
17:18:50 <Samu> if you read the message in the PR
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17:37:16 <andythenorth> I use a lot of palette colours for magic replace stuff in python PIL
17:37:26 <andythenorth> but sometimes I want to draw with them :)
17:37:37 <andythenorth> let's just say, we won't be having any orange trains :P
17:40:06 <andythenorth> I could probably define my own palette to solve that :P
17:40:32 <andythenorth> all those wasted magic pinks :D
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19:44:45 <andythenorth> so when are we solving game progression speed?
19:44:50 <andythenorth> let's not call it day length eh?
19:44:54 <andythenorth> tech tree advancement
19:45:50 <DorpsGek_III_> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:45:54 <andythenorth> I have 30 years between train generations, and I have a fun micro-management cdist pax network, which means blanket 'replace all' isn't the weapon of choice
19:46:08 <andythenorth> it's taken me 35 years to carefully upgrade my 1930 trains :P
19:46:18 <andythenorth> and now the new ones are here, and I still have some 1900 trains :P
19:47:28 <andythenorth> seriously considering a parameter to just scale intro dates, using 1860 as a base
19:48:04 <andythenorth> or I could just wind the clock back 10 years
19:48:50 * andythenorth considering what makes a good sandbox game
19:49:01 <andythenorth> #1 most useful thing: magic bulldozer
19:49:22 <andythenorth> #1 missing thing: some of the SE terrain tools, e.g. fix broken rivers, build houses
19:50:02 <andythenorth> things I'd kinda like: 'prospect' for all industry types
19:50:14 <andythenorth> the option to grow towns by delivering cargos
19:50:41 <andythenorth> and the progression speed thing :P
19:51:00 <andythenorth> oh I have to keep turning magic bulldozer off, because otherwise towns bulldoze industries
19:51:05 <andythenorth> or was that fixed?
19:52:00 <FLHerne> I think we should just have 'build river' as a non-cheat
19:52:33 <andythenorth> can someone just do an object grf for it?
19:54:01 <FLHerne> But then you'd have to build canals, and build fake-rivers over them, to make it navigable?
19:54:15 <FLHerne> I don't think objects can confer water-ness
19:54:27 <FLHerne> Really, everything should be objects :P
19:56:36 <FLHerne> Objects should be able to specify other map bits,
19:56:51 <FLHerne> So station tiles and waypoints would just be objects with track
19:57:48 <FLHerne> And you could have stations with junctions in the middle if the object allowed that
19:58:48 * FLHerne -> away before propounding any sillier ideas
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20:14:20 <andythenorth> everything is state machines!
20:19:22 * andythenorth wonders how local authority penalties are accrued
20:19:30 <andythenorth> maybe there's a table somewhere, let's see
20:20:57 <andythenorth> ChangeTownRating
20:24:10 <andythenorth> yeah I'm looking where I can delete all that :)
20:24:15 <andythenorth> so bored of angry towns
20:27:08 <andythenorth> full sandbox mode, or riot
20:32:32 <andythenorth> so newgrf tech progression parameter
20:32:44 <andythenorth> pre-defined values on a dropdown? Or enter an integer?
20:33:07 <nielsm> you could do it procedurally, go to the Town class and delete the company ratings field and try to compile, that'll cause a bunch of errors. delete the code causing those errors, and try again. repeat until you feel done :)
20:33:24 <andythenorth> nielsm: no cyber bullying pls :D
20:33:41 <andythenorth> also that is how I code :P
20:36:24 <andythenorth> basically, if we could extend "Town council's attitude to restructuring" to include "doesn't give a hoot"
20:36:45 <andythenorth> the current option for "permissive" is a very relative description
20:37:03 <andythenorth> "permissive as long as you build all stations before you build any tracks"
20:37:09 <crazystacy> i am sure you can add some rating modifier cheat fairly easily
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20:37:35 <milek7_> *there is a patch for that
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20:37:55 <nielsm> I think it refers to the acceptable rating level for various types of construction, and not how much the rating changes
20:38:00 <crazystacy> how about some flag you can set which makes it never decrease. ok milek said it
20:38:03 <nielsm> which is way too little effect
20:38:34 <crazystacy> i grew a city from 2000 to 30000 pop, and then they complain when i want to give them another bus station
20:38:43 <crazystacy> oh no no no we want to be a shitty city with zero public transport
20:38:46 <andythenorth> just set acceptable to 0
20:38:55 <andythenorth> move the floor down
20:39:09 <andythenorth> if I could be bothered to open src in my editor, I could PR it probably
20:39:14 <nielsm> the rating is actually from -1000 to +1000, zero is neutral
20:39:21 <crazystacy> what openttd really needs is god-powers to destroy them when they're whining. there could be a "fear" rating
20:39:33 <crazystacy> the higher the fear, the less the rating matters
20:39:52 <crazystacy> "we don't want that bus station" /me releases plague rats "ok we want it"
20:39:54 <nielsm> does the magic bulldozer let you ignore town ratings?
20:40:07 <andythenorth> but not for construction obvs :)
20:43:39 <andythenorth> is there a PR? :P
20:44:07 <andythenorth> can we have it for 1.10?
20:44:16 <andythenorth> I can't play self-compiled OpenTTD any more
20:44:23 <andythenorth> the FPS is too low
20:44:31 <andythenorth> I have to use official binaries
20:44:47 <milek7_> there was a discussion whether it should be separate setting or integrated into existing tolerance setting
20:45:00 * andythenorth didn't consider it in depth
20:45:04 <andythenorth> just seems obvious
20:45:26 <milek7_> ie. if there should be 'don't care' setting in difficulty.town_council_tolerance
20:45:43 <andythenorth> it's just an extension of the current scale, so should be in the existing setting
20:45:49 <andythenorth> two settings fragments behaviour
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20:48:47 <milek7_> so then bribing option should be disabled?
20:50:49 <_dp_> bribing is still somewhat useful in case GS messes with rating
20:51:40 <andythenorth> doesn't need disabled, it just won't get used
20:51:55 <andythenorth> someone might report it as a bug, but it's a tidy mind problem
20:52:09 <andythenorth> leaving it enabled is zero-harm, and reduces QA problems
20:55:55 <nielsm> wow the town council tolerance setting does very little
20:56:05 <nielsm> it only affects removal of roads and bridges
20:56:13 <nielsm> and not building stations
20:56:19 <nielsm> okay it also affects airport noise
20:57:02 <_dp_> lol, now I remember why it was never implemented xD
20:57:30 <nielsm> and the ratings for road destruction are stupidly close so the setting has very little practical effect
20:57:59 <nielsm> 16/64/112, are the permissive/neutral/hostile min ratings for removing roads
20:58:05 <nielsm> remember the range is -1000 to +1000
20:58:20 <milek7_> andythenorth (2017): This is IMHO a boring thing to add to the core game.
20:58:37 <andythenorth> former me was an idiot
20:59:16 <_dp_> redoing tolerance setting completely would probably be the best
20:59:30 <andythenorth> wow had I been drinking?
20:59:33 <_dp_> add one setting for noise and one for rating that actually works
20:59:51 <andythenorth> hmm 06.11GMT, bit early for drinking
21:00:01 <andythenorth> I could have stayed up all night, but I never do so eh
21:00:17 <nielsm> the local authority aggressiveness setting should not be rating thresholds, but affect the rate of change, and for _all_ actions
21:00:50 <andythenorth> oh I think my comment is probably a campaign for newgrf control of towns
21:01:21 <andythenorth> that usually ends up in someone rage quitting, so let's not discuss it :P
21:01:37 <andythenorth> last time it was TB, and we should never make the sysadmin rage quit :P
21:09:21 <milek7_> nielsm: it affects houses too
21:09:58 <nielsm> it's a mostly pointless setting
21:10:28 <nielsm> the least that could be done would be making it more useful
21:11:37 <milek7_> required rating for house removal is specified by NewGRF, it should be multipied by tolerance setting?
21:12:18 <nielsm> as far as I can tell, removing houses checks that your rating will not fall below zero for the removal?
21:13:15 <crazystacy2> i saw in my japanese town set that the stations are animated (more or fewer passengers), i think that's according to how much cargo is waiting?
21:13:25 <crazystacy2> i guess i should quit asking and just look into how newgrfs work
21:14:50 <milek7_> yes, but it specifies by how much it will be actually decreased
21:14:51 <nielsm> also, I think a more interesting approach than outright refusing building any stations within the town could be that at more permissive levels you get some grace allowing you to build small stations (number of station tiles) even at bad ratings
21:17:36 <andythenorth> I'm 99% certain from my comment that I wanted to make it a newgrf cb
21:17:53 <nielsm> e.g. at permissive you could always build bus and truck stops regardless of rating, and when your rating goes above appalling you can also build smaller train stations and docks, but both under some restriction of total number of station tiles nearby
21:17:57 <andythenorth> now is the time for someone to interject 'but GS'
21:18:05 <andythenorth> and then we can do the 'but GS is lame' dance :)
21:18:20 <nielsm> where should the cb be on?
21:19:17 * andythenorth is assuming there is already a method call on rating when constructing
21:20:07 <andythenorth> there was the rudiment of a town object in newgrf
21:20:14 <andythenorth> I'm not sure how far it got
21:22:46 <crazystacy2> i need to learn Dafny by tomorrow at 8 AM sharp
21:23:09 <crazystacy2> but i spent the day coding on openttd instead
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21:50:33 <crazystacy> milek7_, do you know the status of the 3d viewport renderer? :P
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22:01:10 <milek7_> crazystacy: it works i think?..
22:02:45 <crazystacy> is he doing any more work on it?
22:04:47 <andythenorth> nielsm: did you ever PR the industry sub-layouts? :)
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23:57:57 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bjarnithor99 commented on pull request #7859: Feature #7756: Allow server to supply a reason to kicked/banned clients https://git.io/JvJuM
23:59:53 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bjarnithor99 commented on pull request #7859: Feature #7756: Allow server to supply a reason to kicked/banned clients https://git.io/JvJu5
continue to next day ⏵
