IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-01-11
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00:01:12 <Samu> there's finally a use for tortoise svn, good thing I kept it installed
00:01:32 <glx> hehe, I use winmerge to compare files
00:09:18 <Samu> i suspect variable max op codes
00:09:44 <glx> regression use it's own cfg
00:09:46 <Samu> because... it's variable
00:10:00 <Samu> i'll never get a static result
00:10:39 <glx> but a change in AI API can delay some AI stuff
00:11:08 <LordAro> glx: this is presumably Samu's variable max opcode patch
00:11:28 <LordAro> which essentially just breaks the regression testing
00:11:35 <glx> must be disabled for regression :)
00:12:33 <Samu> im unsure yet, gotta have to check
00:14:09 <hythlodaeus> tks guys, found the problem by comparing w/ Meld!
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00:26:31 <Samu> cannot be predicted, hmm so i guess i need to make a setting about having it disabled
00:27:34 <Samu> first test, 4 vehicles had differences, 2nd test only 3 had differences
00:28:22 <Samu> but it's too late atm, gonna bed, cyas
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07:19:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] floodious commented on issue #7830: Load font from openttd config file directory, not from working directory. https://git.io/JewMG
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09:16:13 <andythenorth> did you finish Horse for me?
09:19:18 <andythenorth> just 46 more trains to draw :P
09:34:13 <andythenorth> how many more for UKRS 99?
09:38:46 <Pikka> ummm... 4 or 5 I think.
09:39:21 <Pikka> pannier, q1, pacific, 14 and 91
09:39:38 <Pikka> and I'm thinking about replacing the 60 with an EMD just to break up the Brush love
09:39:53 <Pikka> if you like. ;) I'm aiming for April.
09:40:42 <andythenorth> avg was 2 per day for Iron Horse 2
09:40:48 <andythenorth> might be done by Feb :P
09:49:20 <andythenorth> I made the tech tree show 1cc or 2cc optionally
09:49:39 <andythenorth> the 1CC is easier to read, but doesn't show the variations
10:07:18 <peter1138> Playing on some Reddit OpenTTD server.
10:07:59 <peter1138> Global warming, eh?
10:18:03 <andythenorth> oof industries are quite closey
10:25:12 <peter1138> Oh, I just had to explain DMU, heh.
10:25:17 <peter1138> Maybe I should just keep quiet.
10:28:02 <andythenorth> I stopped spectating :)
10:37:25 <FLHerne> peter1138: Odd, I think reddit S1 had Cargodist for pax/mail last time I did that
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10:40:43 <andythenorth> does the industry spam get annoying?
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10:43:31 <andythenorth> wow these train stats aren't even realistic
10:43:48 <andythenorth> A4 should be 126mph and 2000hp
10:44:28 * andythenorth quits the server, the industry message spam is insane
10:44:37 <andythenorth> can't be arsed to change my news setting :D
10:47:17 <nielsm> probably smooth economy making industries change production all the time
10:47:21 <nielsm> causing massive news spam
10:49:00 <peter1138> I moved on to Heretic and then iRacing. Gaming loyalty...
10:49:47 <andythenorth> the reddit map is 1024x2048 and terrain looks ok
10:49:56 * andythenorth wonders if TGP is tuned for large map sizes
10:50:36 <peter1138> It's a crap terrain.
10:51:02 <andythenorth> you don't like the impassable mountains + everything else is flat?
10:56:55 <nielsm> map generator idea: scripted, the script returns a bunch of control points (either in a fixed grid, or freely placed) with each point setting height and something about landscape type
10:57:27 <nielsm> and it also returns arrays of town positions and industry positions
10:57:52 <andythenorth> mumble mumble rivers
10:58:15 <nielsm> yeah... they probably also need to be specified in some way
10:58:25 <andythenorth> and then between control points, what? A transform per tile? Or random?
11:00:40 <nielsm> some general code fills in with interpolation
11:00:56 <nielsm> one of the parameters I imagine for control points is rough/smooth
11:02:36 <nielsm> transport fever 2 has three distinct landscape generators, one for temperate, one for desert, and one for tropical islands
11:03:01 <nielsm> the first two are based around running a river through the map, placing some lakes, and some hills and mountains
11:08:12 <nielsm> ofc it also has much more freedom in what kind of maps it can make
11:09:04 <andythenorth> "river runs through it"
11:10:09 <nielsm> the big limitation of (o)ttd terrain always remains the need to be smooth
11:12:26 <andythenorth> perlin noise is the default approach to procedural terrain
11:12:44 <andythenorth> but I think it sucks
11:13:23 <andythenorth> it's used to make freeform mesh landscapes seem more organic, fine
11:13:36 <nielsm> for a game the terrain needs to be interesting
11:13:38 <andythenorth> but we don't have a freeform mesh, we have regular polygons
11:14:01 <nielsm> interesting to play on, that is
11:14:07 <andythenorth> which I think needs designed
11:14:17 <andythenorth> throwing perlin noise or gaussian or whatever at the slopes
11:14:52 <andythenorth> so scripting 'features'? o_O
11:15:07 <andythenorth> 'cone volcano island'
11:15:21 <nielsm> could we change the savegame format and spend one or more of the high bits in the heightmap array to mean "tile is flat"?
11:15:29 <andythenorth> then interpolate between the feautures :P
11:15:35 <nielsm> to get some kind of natural ridge-like stuff
11:15:56 <andythenorth> we're pretty good at getting large bland plateaus currently :P
11:16:19 <peter1138> You can perform functions on top of perlin to make ridges
11:17:06 <nielsm> problem is that ottd can not represent ridges :)
11:18:00 <peter1138> True but even smoothed out ridges are better than just random lumpy landmasses.
11:18:02 <nielsm> "this tile has natural foundations" kind of, is what I mean
11:19:59 <Wolf01> First we need map rotation, or you won't see anything you build behind a ridge
11:20:19 <peter1138> Transparent rendering ;)
11:20:32 <andythenorth> can we see behind foundations?
11:20:45 <Wolf01> That could be an option
11:21:07 <LordAro> or fake cliffs that are just unpassable
11:21:12 <andythenorth> can see behind foundations except for – angle
11:21:49 <nielsm> scenario editor really needs some more paintbrush like terrain tools
11:22:31 <Wolf01> Feel free to get it from my repo
11:28:09 <Wolf01> Only if they can flood lower areas
11:28:10 <nielsm> (hand placed on a modified tgp)
11:30:05 <andythenorth> where's eddi's river patch
11:32:09 <nielsm> qqwhttps://0x0.st/zRI-.jpg
11:32:14 <andythenorth> nielsm: can we divide the map into sectors, and take a local water table height?
11:33:25 <nielsm> simulate water filling up a local low in the point by raising the base terrain and putting water on top
11:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> there need to be halftile rivers on the lower end of a diagonal slope
11:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and rivers flowing down diagonal slopes
11:33:56 <nielsm> also, make a flag on river tiles to make them indestructible, or have a fake depth that needs to be filled with dirt (which is stupidly expensive) to remove it
11:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that would simplify river generation by a ton
11:34:27 <LordAro> nielsm: it's not possible to have actual water tiles there, rather than river tiles, is it?
11:34:43 <nielsm> LordAro, river tiles are just water tiles with height > 0 afaik
11:35:19 <Eddi|zuHause> river tiles are water tiles that do not flood
11:35:36 <andythenorth> river removal remains 'interesting'
11:35:39 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't have to have height > 0
11:35:46 <andythenorth> I often just bulldoze rivers for game reasons
11:36:18 <LordAro> andythenorth: pretty sure they show by unmovable
11:36:33 <nielsm> lots of free bits on water tiles too
11:36:44 <nielsm> could easily find room to store "depth"
11:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: that's too restrictive, imho you should be able to reroute rivers through canals
11:37:33 <nielsm> ideally river springs should have a constant flow, if you fill/dam a river somewhere, it will flow around
11:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> which would mean we need to mark sources and drains, and check that all sources are connected to a drain
11:37:53 <nielsm> and then we're into dwarf fortress territory
11:38:20 <andythenorth> there's a patch for that?
11:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think flooding is needed, just making the river indestructible if there is no bypass
11:39:32 <andythenorth> also, 1 tile locks
11:39:38 <andythenorth> or placeable weir / rapids
11:39:43 <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause, that would mean running a potentially expensive pathfinder when you destroy river tiles
11:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it should be ok to run expensive operations on user interaction
11:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and it can probably be simplified if you store the river flow direction
11:41:10 <nielsm> hmm yes, river tiles could store their distance from the main flow
11:41:42 <andythenorth> rivers that carve landscape :P
11:41:51 <nielsm> perhaps just up to 6 or 14, capped at 7 or 15 if they are not part of a flow
11:41:54 <andythenorth> rivers that aren't 1 tile wide forever
11:41:58 <Samu> 8>Running ai/regression/tst_regression... passed!
11:42:36 <Samu> and that's one more setting :o
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11:45:35 <nielsm> except also with halftile pieces
11:46:00 <andythenorth> I started drawing those once
11:46:11 <andythenorth> but then I got into one of those silly irc arguments and rage quit
11:46:16 <andythenorth> deleted the repo :(
11:46:19 <andythenorth> silly andythenorth
11:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, halftile pieces are the highest priority
11:46:34 <LordAro> the pathfinder operation for re-rivering doesn't need to run to completion, just needs to find the next downslope
11:46:44 <Eddi|zuHause> basically every attempt at rivers i had was ultimately thwarted by the lack of those
11:46:46 <LordAro> though that still wouldn't work for extremely flat maps, i guess
11:46:58 <LordAro> could just limit it to 20 tiles distance or something
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11:49:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not about the look. it's about the freedom to place rivers on any map tile
11:50:48 <andythenorth> I am +1 to half-tiles, I understand the issue
11:51:07 <andythenorth> the basic appearance of curves could be improved without them though, but I didn't find it worth the work
11:52:13 <nielsm> halftile rivers could possibly even re-use the ocean halftile graphics?
11:57:21 <LordAro> well not without additional sprites :p
11:57:38 <nielsm> my thought was that maybe it could work without additional sprites
12:02:55 <andythenorth> sprites can be drawn
12:03:14 <andythenorth> I did rivers, it took a couple of days due to climate variations, but basically fine
12:03:22 <nielsm> haha awesome... the danish translation uses at least three different terms for AI players
12:08:38 <Pikka> I suppose they need to be done...
12:10:50 <nielsm> the web translator seems to have broken that day
12:14:17 * andythenorth bodges some sprites
12:15:10 <andythenorth> just 44 trains to draw@
12:15:49 <LordAro> andythenorth: time for another redesign?
12:16:04 <andythenorth> nah, not until 98%
12:16:50 <andythenorth> if we do livery groups, I'll have to redesign the whole grf :)
12:17:03 <andythenorth> like when auto-refit destroyed FISH :)
12:17:11 <andythenorth> so livery groups then? o_O
12:20:09 <nielsm> I should go out and get some air and sunshine while available
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13:03:46 <Samu> what does a comma do in a return?
13:03:49 <Samu> return samu, TOCC("MoveGoodsToStationSamu", 10);
13:03:56 <Samu> samu is what i want to return
13:09:16 <Samu> TICC TOCC isn't as smart as I expected
13:12:05 <peter1138> They're macros, I doubt putting it after a comma after a return statement will do anything desirable. But you never know.
13:14:08 <Samu> if i return samu after the TOCC, it says samu is undefined
13:18:48 <Samu> if TOCC is after the return, it isn't reached :(
13:19:57 <peter1138> define samu before the TICC, obviously.
13:21:14 <Samu> wow it seems to work, gonna try
13:21:22 <andythenorth> so how often is the 'trains' window repainted?
13:23:01 <andythenorth> I'm wondering if the perf. issue is the train drawing, or the profit display
13:23:56 <andythenorth> more or fewer groups don't seem to affect fps
13:24:01 <andythenorth> nor groups open or closed
13:24:53 <Samu> TICC TOCC gives me 0 us most of the time
13:25:09 * andythenorth suspects newgrf though
13:25:19 <andythenorth> the plane window with AV8 barely slows
13:25:31 <andythenorth> the ship window with my ship grf is horrible fps
13:25:36 <andythenorth> the RV window barely slows
13:25:41 <andythenorth> the train window nails fps to the floor
13:26:25 <peter1138> Let's see if my company is still alive.
13:27:00 <peter1138> peter1138 MIGHT BE CONNECTING VIA A PROXY IN GB. I can guarantee I'm not :P
13:29:24 <Samu> dbg: [misc] [MoveGoodsToStationSamu] 905242 [avg: 9052.4]
13:29:24 <Samu> dbg: [misc] [MoveGoodsToStationOrig] 220269 [avg: 2202.7]
13:34:37 <andythenorth> such slow compile
13:37:08 <andythenorth> ok the vehicle window fps is caused either (1) by any vehicles in motion or (2) newgrf vehicles in motion
13:37:21 <andythenorth> I sent all trains to depot, fps substantially improved
13:37:29 <andythenorth> I don't have a vanilla game to compare yet :P
13:38:00 <peter1138> I mean... that could be pathfinding...
13:41:34 <andythenorth> ok it's not limited to newgrf
13:42:26 * andythenorth trying vanilla trains
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13:46:37 <andythenorth> digression: having a FIRS industry in the viewport knocks about 20fps off FFWD speed (70-80fps vs 90-100fps)
13:48:15 <andythenorth> ok so vehicle list, (not ffwd): 34fps 150 vanilla trains stopped, 25fps 150 trains started
13:48:30 <andythenorth> windowshading the vehicle list restores fps to 34
13:48:35 <andythenorth> might be a sideshow though
13:49:11 <andythenorth> I wondered about the profit / usage display initially, as drawing text appears to be slow, but deleting that widget makes no difference
13:50:02 <crazystacy> hm, i fixed the choochoo ai, but the original author is gone, what could i do?
14:00:24 <LordAro> crazystacy: not a lot, really
14:00:38 <LordAro> other than publish your fixed version under a different name (licence permitting)
14:00:54 <LordAro> admiralai has similar issues
14:01:13 <crazystacy> i will upload a patch on the forum i suppose. i at least saw 1 person complaining only 1 month ago so maybe this person will benefit
14:01:36 <crazystacy> what happens is AIVehicle.GetName(vehicleId) // vehicleId is int returns null
14:01:57 <crazystacy> not sure if the API changed or if it could always return null
14:03:14 <LordAro> shouldn't have changed, if it has then there's a compatibility issue that's missing
14:05:04 <crazystacy> other problem was that Road Pathfinder was updated to v4 and it looks for v3
14:05:23 <crazystacy> not sure how libraries work, are they automagically downloaded when i download an AI? because i found the tarballs in my .openttd directory
14:05:55 <LordAro> yeah, dependencies are downloaded at the same time
14:14:39 <andythenorth> savegame runs at 21x FFWD with trains stopped
14:14:57 <andythenorth> 4x FFWD with trains started
14:21:41 <andythenorth> Pikka: how do steam trains pixel? :P
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14:42:17 <andythenorth> that can be fixed
14:42:33 <andythenorth> deasils are offer more options :P
14:44:04 <crazystacy> there are tournaments? for AI? for players?
14:44:28 <crazystacy> andythenorth, do you base your trains on real trains?
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14:54:18 <Samu> i just realised MoveGoodsToStation is called an insurmountable amount of times
14:54:41 <Samu> even if it's moving 0 amounts or 0 stations around at all
14:55:00 <Samu> any tile on the map that produces cargo, calls it
14:55:37 <_dp_> Samu, it immediately returns in those cases so should be optimized out
14:57:58 <Samu> dbg: [misc] [MoveGoodsToStationOrig] 105527 [avg: 1055.3]
14:57:58 <_dp_> why is it called with 0 amounts tho?
14:57:59 <Samu> dbg: [misc] [MoveGoodsToStationSamu] 184096 [avg: 1841.0]
14:57:59 <Samu> dbg: [misc] [MoveGoodsToStationSOld] 241123 [avg: 2411.2]
15:01:02 <Samu> i can't use 1 build to test the times of 3 different methods
15:01:36 <Samu> because of UpdateStationWaiting
15:03:09 <Samu> i need 3 builds running in parallel with each method
15:08:49 <crazystacy> trying ShipAI makes me realise how decent ships are :P
15:25:30 <Samu> finally getting results that make sense
15:32:34 <Samu> loading a save randomizes random settings :( why isn't it fixed yet :(
15:33:49 <Samu> i knew there was something suspicious about the screenshots
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16:10:02 <Samu> funny stuff that happens in reality. with 14 Convoys as AI
16:11:07 <Samu> my old method, which was supposed to make every station receive equal amounts based on rating, is resulting in 1 convoy company being ahead of every other
16:11:48 <Samu> and the original method results so far in more companies above £0 profit
16:12:50 <Samu> gonna let this evolve 5 years or so before i jump into conlcusions
16:13:54 <Samu> after all, the AIs still react accordingly
16:14:07 <Samu> no profit routes are eliminated
16:14:14 <Samu> new routes are created, etc..
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16:33:40 <LordAro> Samu: re 7486 - i agree with niels - why not just remove the rerandomise block on script (re)load?
16:43:31 <Samu> I can't remove the randomize block there
16:44:00 <Samu> the way the load game is set up, it will call the Change function
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16:48:19 <Samu> I don't know how to answer that
16:54:42 <crazystacy2> uint16 does not name a type, assert was not declared in this scope
16:57:41 <_dp_> crazystacy2, I've no idea what are you doing but did you include stdafx.h?
16:58:26 <crazystacy2> tried to add two new source files, added to source.list
16:58:36 <crazystacy2> i will try that _dp_
16:59:07 <nielsm> all files in ottd should include stdafx.h
17:00:57 <crazystacy2> oh. i see that now.
17:01:19 <crazystacy2> it was odd because the cpp file was empty and .h file included some other headers (i basically tried to copy an existing file, and gutted everything except 3 headers)
17:01:42 <crazystacy2> i'll wait for the compile to finish
17:03:04 <frosch123> stdafx.h is first, safeguards.h is last, for all files
17:07:25 <crazystacy2> i still had my own header file above stdafx.
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17:25:49 <Samu> I am not sure if these profits were to be expected
17:26:18 <Samu> I also not sure of my methodology of getting TIC/TOC measurements
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17:34:18 <peter1138> Oh. Orbx updater decided to take over my computer whilst playing ETS 2... so I have 97% truck damage, and my cargo is wrecked too :(
17:36:58 <LordAro> did you fall off a cliff?
17:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> still 3% to go :p
17:40:21 <andythenorth> or just edit the save file, it's human-editable in ETS 1
17:47:43 <andythenorth> after about 8 real hours driving, I get bored and gift myself loads of money
17:47:47 <andythenorth> then I do more driving :P
17:47:51 <andythenorth> weird game ETS 1
17:50:18 <peter1138> I don't think it is in ETS 2, but I have enough money to not care anyway.
17:50:29 <peter1138> The multiplayer mod messes it up.
17:54:15 <andythenorth> see what happens
17:58:48 <nielsm> hm should water depth "flood" or maybe rather "normalise" in some way? perhaps via tile loop?
17:59:02 <nielsm> such that over time you get an even gradient of depth from shore out
18:00:26 <andythenorth> what's the upside?
18:00:31 <andythenorth> long shore drift? o_O
18:12:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7922: Improved logic of sharing industry production between stations https://git.io/JvfnP
18:29:59 <TrueBrain> in case anyone is bored, and wants to review a bit of typescripting, comments are welcome :)
18:32:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #140: Add: [Actions] switch to our own actions instead of writing them out https://git.io/JvfcU
18:33:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #140: Add: [Actions] switch to our own actions instead of writing them out https://git.io/JvfcU
18:34:11 <TrueBrain> that was an interesting experience :)
18:41:21 <crazystacy2> SDL2 support is brand-new?
18:41:46 <crazystacy2> noticed when compiling 1.9.3 as opposed to master
18:42:06 <nielsm> was merged in september or so
18:52:07 <Samu> more costs to clearing water
18:52:37 <nielsm> yes one effect possible :)
18:53:01 <nielsm> also I made a silly thing where ship depots can only be built on at most 40 m depth
18:53:33 <nielsm> and oil rigs should maybe only build on high depths
18:56:31 <Samu> it's solving 2 issues in 1 pr
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19:08:18 <hythlodaeus_> STR_REPLACE_HELP_LEFT_ARRAY :{BLACK}Select the engine type to replace
19:08:50 <hythlodaeus_> STR_REPLACE_HELP_RIGHT_ARRAY :{BLACK}Select the new engine type you would like to use in place of the engine type selected to the left
19:09:05 <hythlodaeus_> i would like to suggest changing these strings
19:09:29 <hythlodaeus_> the word "engine" should be replaced by "vehicle" as to avoid translation confusion
19:09:51 <hythlodaeus_> bc this string is being used for both road vehicles and trains
19:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> hythlodaeus_: string can be split into two to improve translations
19:12:02 <hythlodaeus_> we would need three then
19:12:10 <hythlodaeus_> one for aircraft too
19:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc we did something similar in another place
19:12:51 <hythlodaeus_> I think replacing engine with vehicle would work tho
19:12:54 <glx> yeah the "engine" part could be a {STRING}
19:13:56 <hythlodaeus_> that could work too yep
19:14:18 <glx> but I can't remember if we can use the same arg in 2 places :)
19:14:36 <glx> (anyway pushing 2 times the same args work for sure)
19:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> don't we have {STRING:0} or something like that?
19:16:42 <Samu> loading a savegame calls 3 sets of ScriptConfig::Change 's
19:16:47 <glx> yes it's often used to change the order, but I don't know if we can also reuse arg
19:17:03 <Samu> a set is made of 15 configurable AI slots + GS slot
19:17:06 <andythenorth> I played this game for 115 years, that's pretty long
19:17:17 <andythenorth> time for a new ottd game?
19:17:30 <hythlodaeus_> would you like me to create an issue on github for this string matter?
19:17:34 <andythenorth> I want to do pax game to test some Horse vehicles
19:17:40 <andythenorth> but cities fricking suck for so many reasons
19:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: i was about to write {0:STRING} and switched it up last second...
19:20:52 * andythenorth wonders how to fix cities
19:21:05 <andythenorth> * 'fix' growth somehow
19:21:17 <Samu> this is extremely dificult for me to explain. Following the code with visual studio is easier
19:21:19 <andythenorth> * find solution to cdist
19:21:48 <Samu> it involves settings that the user defined
19:21:52 <Samu> settings left at their defaults
19:22:16 <Samu> and then a mix of those with random deviation, randomrange
19:23:02 <TrueBrain> glx: I tried to do that, but source cannot be outside the src dir, and I don't understand type script enough :D
19:23:29 <Samu> saving settings only saves some of them
19:23:31 <TrueBrain> So yeah, it would be better, I just don't know how
19:24:42 <Samu> then on load, the function ScriptConfig::Change is used to put an AI config in a company "slot"
19:25:09 <Samu> tldr; it's fine the way it is
19:26:49 <Samu> i don't know how to make it unalter AI's that have started already
19:27:29 <Samu> maybe somewhere in ai_sl.cpp
19:27:52 <LordAro> Samu: unalter? just don't alter it in the first place
19:28:26 <Samu> it has to configure the slot, because it was been just cleaned blank
19:28:47 <Samu> then during load, it's filled up via ScriptConfig::Change
19:29:25 <Samu> there doesn't seem to be another method to it
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19:38:57 <hythlodaeus_> guys i think it's better nd easier if we simple replace "engine" with "vehicle" since STR_REPLACE_VEHICLE_VEHICLES_IN_USE_TOOLTIP and others in the same window are already using the word vehicle, e.g "Column with vehicles that you own", "Column with vehicles available for replacement"
19:39:42 <Eddi|zuHause> hythlodaeus_: it's not "easier", because some languages have no generic word for "vehicle"
19:39:55 <hythlodaeus_> hmm, is that so?
19:40:09 <hythlodaeus_> well ok, we're gonna need modified versions for this one too
19:43:04 <Samu> an engine and a vehicle in openttd code are 2 different things
19:45:37 <hythlodaeus_> Samu, this is specifically about the vehicle replacement window
19:45:45 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:45:59 <hythlodaeus_> it's using the word "engine" universally to designate train engines, road vehicles, and aircraft
19:47:04 <Samu> for gui purposes, it can be confusing
19:47:23 <hythlodaeus_> this doesn't work i.e in Portuguese where you cannot use the word "motor" to designate a bus or a truck
19:47:40 <hythlodaeus_> or "locomotiva" for that matter
19:48:20 <Samu> in that window, the code calls them "engines"
19:48:27 <andythenorth> I guess I could add some giant pax trains
19:48:59 <andythenorth> but I have some in other cities which are 400 pax per tile length
19:49:06 <andythenorth> and the stations still don't clear
19:49:10 <andythenorth> losing is boring
19:49:25 <andythenorth> 500 pax per coach?
19:53:55 <Samu> there was some recent portuguese translations than have undone what I translated... meh, must be u
20:00:05 <crazystacy> make an esperanto translation and make everyone learn it
20:00:21 <crazystacy> andythenorth, do you play alone?
20:01:39 <crazystacy> so i should get iron horse 2 i am guessing?
20:01:50 <crazystacy> or are they two separate contents
20:04:57 <frosch123> there is an esperanto translation, but it has not been updated in years
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20:07:40 <andythenorth> Iron Horse 1 is separate from 2
20:07:47 <andythenorth> for those who don't like 2
20:07:48 <crazystacy> shame for the few thousand speakers
20:07:53 <crazystacy> andythenorth, can they be mixed?
20:08:00 <andythenorth> nothing stops it
20:08:07 <crazystacy> i now realised you also made FISH
20:08:16 <crazystacy> my favourite is the harbour point utility vessel
20:11:10 <TrueBrain> LordAro: fun "fact": when you run "black" over your codebase, flake8 no longer accepts the result :)
20:11:24 <TrueBrain> it makes boo-boos :)
20:11:50 <LordAro> TrueBrain: yes, black mentions these in its readme
20:11:55 <LordAro> says you should turn those off :p
20:12:38 <TrueBrain> which is ..... well ....
20:15:07 <Eddi|zuHause> if you feel the need to say "turn off option X" in your readme, why not change the default setting?!?
20:15:33 <TrueBrain> and who reads readmes ..
20:15:38 <TrueBrain> but fair enough LordAro :)
20:16:52 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: black says to turn the option in flake8 off
20:17:01 <LordAro> they can't exactly do anything about that
20:19:20 <crazystacy> andythenorth, aren't the metro trains incredibly tiny compared to the tracks?
20:20:08 <andythenorth> guess it depends on the track grf
20:22:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the default tracks are pretty massive
20:23:23 <crazystacy> yes, i like the narrow gauge
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20:24:19 <nielsm> andythenorth: do you know/remember how ships that have different speeds in canals, rivers, and on sea implement that?
20:24:41 <nielsm> are they just built in two different top speeds? or does it use a callback to check the underlying tile?
20:24:43 <andythenorth> there is a newgrf property
20:24:48 <crazystacy> i wish there were even more ships
20:25:08 <andythenorth> nielsm: prop 14 and 15
20:25:27 <andythenorth> it's not a newgrf cb, but I assume there's an underlying openttd cb
20:25:37 <andythenorth> cb / tile check /s
20:27:06 <frosch123> i think yapf also assigns different path costs depending on those speeds
20:32:50 <nielsm> hmm, milestone 1.10.0 is marked as "due by february 1st" on github, we'll have to hurry up to hit that!
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20:33:21 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't we want 1.10 out by last october or something? :p
20:33:31 <TrueBrain> right ... if these commits are reviewed, I should be able to deploy these to AWS, and I can shut down kubernetes :D
20:33:47 <LordAro> nielsm: it was overdue, i figured i should bump it a bit
20:34:06 <LordAro> TrueBrain: it's quite hard to review 90000 lines of code in a language no one else reads
20:34:16 <TrueBrain> LordAro: try writing them :P
20:34:54 <TrueBrain> I never wrote a Typescript project from scratch before, so yeah .. :P
20:35:11 <TrueBrain> blame GitHub Actions
20:35:14 <crazystacy> typescript? for github?
20:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: a statement i read recently: "We introduced VMs to solve problems with Distributions. We introduced Containers to solve problems with VMs. We introduced Docker to solve problems with Containers. We introduced Kubernetes to solve problems with Docker"
20:36:45 <TrueBrain> well, k8s didn't solve anything ... yet
20:36:49 <Wolf01> The next step should be distributions again
20:36:50 <TrueBrain> it only over-complicated matters
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20:43:02 <TrueBrain> so that never happened okay?
21:01:36 <glx> typescript is not that hard to read, it's very similar to JS :)
21:02:04 <TrueBrain> it is vastly more difficult to write, especially if you run a linter over it
21:02:08 <TrueBrain> complains about almost EVERYTHING :P
21:02:44 <glx> I just need to find how to test stuff locally
21:03:44 <TrueBrain> that repo is nearly impossible to test locally
21:04:04 <glx> I can test the building at least
21:04:27 <TrueBrain> I should add that to the readme
21:07:16 <TrueBrain> at least now a few words how to build it locally :)
21:08:09 <glx> yeah with the right command it's easier :)
21:08:47 <TrueBrain> yeah, sorry about that; I should have done that earlier :)
21:09:25 <glx> I tried "npm run build" but the deps were not installed so of course it failed
21:09:43 <glx> I should have try bootstrap ;)
21:11:46 <glx> and of course I get a different output in dist
21:12:01 <TrueBrain> that should not happen
21:12:04 <TrueBrain> everything is pinned
21:13:19 <glx> different version of the tools maybe
21:16:20 <TrueBrain> how big is the diff?
21:16:26 <TrueBrain> like everything, or just small parts?
21:16:36 <TrueBrain> (and you did 'npm run all'?)
21:22:44 <TrueBrain> ah, my ncc version is not what I pinned
21:22:46 <TrueBrain> that is interesting
21:26:31 <TrueBrain> ah, no, ncc is of the correct version, it just reports the wrong one
21:29:24 <TrueBrain> hmm .. my local path is in the 'dist' file, is that the diff you are seeing glx?
21:29:49 <glx> no the diff was quite big
21:29:59 <TrueBrain> one does not exclude the other :)
21:30:08 <TrueBrain> module.exports can be different, I guess
21:30:12 <glx> but I should retry with current PR version :)
21:42:14 <TrueBrain> found how to deal with the absolute paths :)
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21:43:09 <TrueBrain> please don't go in there
21:44:11 <andythenorth> "something is not right"
21:45:07 <TrueBrain> glx: try the latest :) Hopefully that no longer generates a diff
22:13:24 *** hythlodaeus has joined #openttd
22:22:06 <hythlodaeus> nielsm: do you think you could have a look at PR #7870? I did the changes you requested, and then some
22:23:54 *** sla_ro|master2 has joined #openttd
22:27:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #7925: A certain save-game corrupts the title screen sprites when loaded. https://git.io/Jvf40
22:29:43 <Samu> that water depth patch sounds interesting for pathfinder reasons
22:30:06 <Samu> remove water tracks from too deep water = faster pf
22:32:43 <Samu> would make ships navigate more around coasts automagically
22:32:49 <hythlodaeus> water depth can add a whole new level to ships gameplay
22:33:19 <hythlodaeus> would be very nice if, for instance, bigger ships like cargo/tankers couldn't navigate on shallow depths
22:33:43 <hythlodaeus> it greatly affects positioning of ports IRL
22:34:30 <nielsm> the tile loop depth evening out thing I have in right now should probably not stay, at least not at the rate it works currently
22:34:48 <nielsm> it makes depth not important enough
22:35:03 <andythenorth> depth as distance to coast?
22:35:08 <andythenorth> what does depth even do?
22:35:11 <nielsm> depth should generally be something that exists from worldgen, not something that happens on its own
22:35:24 <nielsm> (except over the course of decades)
22:35:52 <andythenorth> if we added non-navigable depths to sea
22:36:00 <andythenorth> then building ports does get more interesting
22:36:08 <andythenorth> channels would need creating
22:36:56 <nielsm> andythenorth can you make water sprite variations that indicate deeper water levels? :D
22:37:19 <andythenorth> the usual approach is to change water colour
22:37:52 <andythenorth> green water vs blue water
22:38:00 <glx> TrueBrain: still big diff
22:38:45 <TrueBrain> glx: post part of diff somewhere?
22:38:46 <Samu> or instead of removing water tracks, maybe make bigger pathfinder penalties
22:38:50 <hythlodaeus> In order for depth to look good, tiles would have to animated in a way to transition seamlessly tho
22:39:15 <hythlodaeus> otherwise we'll have rough edges all over the place
22:39:40 <nielsm> yes there would have to be some transition pieces between the different water tile sprites
22:40:23 <hythlodaeus> that would work yeah
22:40:29 <hythlodaeus> nielsm: kindly peep my request for a PR review :)
22:40:50 <nielsm> sorry not right now, semi-busy
22:41:41 <Samu> also, different ship speeds depending on depth it is in
22:41:54 <Samu> wow, so much genius idea
22:42:24 <Samu> in the end this all results in nerfs for ships :p
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22:44:23 <hythlodaeus> with water depth added, ships can become almost as complex as trains, and planning routes would become important
22:44:54 <hythlodaeus> wouldn't be able to sail a tanker in a 1 tile canal for example
22:45:09 <glx> seems the files are generated in a different way
22:47:05 <TrueBrain> Tnx glx. Interesting. What happens if you run 'npm run clean && npm run all'?
22:47:27 <TrueBrain> Don't know enough about web webpack to understand what these numbers means
22:48:23 <TrueBrain> I also wonder if it matters
22:49:32 <supermop_Home_> apparently some of my old Pizzicato 5 CDs would be worth like $100 now
22:49:42 <TrueBrain> For now I am going to ignore it. First I want it done; after that we can optimise
22:49:51 <hythlodaeus> man the aral sea is such a tragedy
22:55:25 <hythlodaeus> can, I ask, why not implementing type icons as some newgrfs already do?
22:55:50 <hythlodaeus> XUSSR for example, uses icons to distinguish between diesel, electric, etc
22:56:07 <hythlodaeus> and you can combine them better as well for hybrid locos
23:01:03 <LordAro> #7925 is an impressive amount of breakage
23:02:08 <glx> LordAro: yeah seems it massively corrupts memory
23:03:59 <andythenorth> I guess if your favourite thing is finding esoteric bugs
23:04:05 <andythenorth> adding more settings doesn't scare you at all
23:04:16 <crazystacy> why do water tiles have depth
23:05:15 <nielsm> crazystacy they don't, yet
23:05:30 <nielsm> except in the new feature I tried develping today
23:05:41 <crazystacy> i meant, what is the purpose
23:05:44 <crazystacy> i like it, i like boats
23:06:00 <nielsm> the purpose is to make water more interesting and more challenging
23:06:28 <nielsm> deep tiles can be more expensive to fill in, making water more challenging to get past
23:06:41 <nielsm> deep tiles can be required for certain industries, or perhaps certain ships
23:06:48 <crazystacy> ah. so you could terraform "down" in water?
23:06:49 <nielsm> shallow water can be required for certain other things
23:13:56 <hythlodaeus> tbh i always felt that ships were crazy neglected in TTD
23:14:39 <hythlodaeus> like Chris Sawyer spent 70% of his time on trains and then decided to do ships at last minute just because
23:16:46 <nielsm> I tried making a depth check for oil rigs construction, but turned out to be pointless, at least currently, since they already have the "water check zone" around them
23:17:06 <nielsm> which is why it isn't part of that PR right now
23:19:55 <nielsm> did we finally make clearing water sufficiently expensive?
23:20:17 <nielsm> but, the Money type used for all costs should protect against overflows
23:20:38 <Samu> doesn't protect underflow someone told me
23:22:09 <Samu> i had a company into the negative so much that it suddenly became quadrillionaire the next month
23:28:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #7870: Change: improved english tooltips https://git.io/Jedhp
23:43:07 <nielsm> what determines a water vessel's top speed?
23:44:30 <nielsm> friction (depends on vessel shape)
23:44:33 <nielsm> ability to handle bad weather (depends on vessel shape and local conditions which might be modeled by depth)
23:45:29 <nielsm> ability to turn and/or stop (depends on vessel shape, and possibly distance to coast/shallows)
23:46:03 <nielsm> I don't think it makes sense to have speed limits as such on water
23:46:20 <nielsm> well maybe canals/near bridges
23:50:46 <Samu> i was thinking, slower speeds near coasts
23:51:23 <Samu> faster speeds when it is walking on water with some more depth
23:52:01 <Samu> pathfinder would also need to be adjusted, have increased costs on lower depth tiles
23:52:20 <hythlodaeus> don't forget currents
23:52:21 <Samu> and lesser costs on water with more depth
23:52:35 <nielsm> ships can already have different speeds on ocean and on river/canal
23:52:41 <hythlodaeus> and wind of course
23:52:58 <nielsm> change the meaning of those two speeds to "on depth" and "on shallows" instead
23:53:10 <nielsm> then the pathfinder will already prefer routes that can use the faster speed
23:53:38 <hythlodaeus> currents play a huge role both in rivers an oceans. a boat travelling upstream and thus against current will obviously go much slower
23:53:54 <hythlodaeus> or at least require more engine effort
23:53:56 <nielsm> additionally we could introduce a callback for ships to ask it what its speed on a particular tile would be
23:54:07 <Samu> there is no currents, but i notice that waters have random bits
23:54:19 <nielsm> unfortunately we don't have flow in water, at least not yet :)
23:54:24 <hythlodaeus> oh i thought you were talking IRL
23:54:30 <hythlodaeus> as in what to plan
23:54:54 <Samu> random bits could be used to determine random speed penalties :p
23:55:38 <Samu> then call it, "it was the wind effect"
23:56:49 <nielsm> if you wanted wind to have an effect then something with tile hash and current date would be more likely to do sensible-feeling things I think
23:57:48 <nielsm> or something else that makes areas nearby have similar wind conditions
23:58:30 <milek7_> ata1: exception Emask 0x10 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x4000000 action 0xe frozen ata2: exception Emask 0x10 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x4000000 action 0xe frozen
23:58:39 <milek7_> dwa dyski naraz chyba się nie zepsuły
23:59:55 <Samu> gonna take a look at pathfinder, it's something I can at least adjust
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