IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-12-23
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00:00:06 <frosch123> is there a reason, cropping was disabled?
00:02:45 <LordAro> frosch123: circular dependencies are usually an error, last time i checked
00:05:49 <planetmaker> <Andrew350> hey where would someone look to find info on bits used for newgrf features? trying to confirm info for the nfo newgrf specs <-- mostly files which somewhat sound similar to newgrf.cpp in OpenTTD's source
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00:06:19 <frosch123> glx: andythenorth: there is actually only 2.3 MB nfo in the grf, the rest are realsprites
00:07:12 <frosch123> let's enable the nml compressor, so we have a "duplicates" statistic
00:07:13 <andythenorth> frosch123: the cropping is probably just historical accident
00:07:37 <andythenorth> I could save a *lot* of sprites by using layers for the cargos
00:07:47 <andythenorth> but it's hard to test the appearance in game
00:07:55 <andythenorth> whereas I can just eyeball a png
00:09:31 <frosch123> nmlc info: 96272 sprites, 0 cached, 0 orphaned, 60313 duplicates, 35959 newly encoded (native) <- lol
00:09:57 <frosch123> well, container format 2 allows merging of identical sprites
00:10:06 <frosch123> but neither nmlc nor grfcodec make use of that
00:12:01 <planetmaker> sounds like a big gain is to be made there. Especially given the statistics you quote :P
00:12:27 <planetmaker> and we're shaving on the 2MB code where we have 15MB duplicate real sprites :P
00:12:59 <andythenorth> can I just stop providing them? :P
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00:15:49 <andythenorth> frosch123: can it list the duplicates?
00:17:24 <frosch123> but let's take the nfo
00:17:24 <nielsm> I think that covers everything :)
00:18:23 <frosch123> hmm, i am not sure whether it counts sprites with different offsets as duplciated
00:18:26 <andythenorth> ouch, because I use grfcodec I haven't been seeing the duplicate count :)
00:18:35 <frosch123> in that case all the flipped ones are duplicate by design
00:18:37 <glx> duplicate sprites means spriteset with the same content ?
00:19:02 <frosch123> same rectangle in .png source
00:19:08 <andythenorth> there are definitely duplicate realsprites
00:19:17 <frosch123> it does not compare the content of the image, just the filename and the coordinates
00:19:22 <andythenorth> it's all related to depot-flip support
00:20:54 <glx> so they could be "merged" during preprocessing I guess
00:21:28 <glx> because most of the duplicates are caused by the template source used to generate nml
00:21:31 <frosch123> grep generated/graphics iron-horse.nfo | sed 's/^[0-9]*//' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n > dups.txt
00:21:36 <frosch123> some sprites appear up to 70 times
00:21:58 <frosch123> like covered hopper car
00:22:27 <frosch123> hmm, all closed vans are at the top
00:22:43 <frosch123> do you distinguish them by cargotype and then use the same sprite because they are closed? :p
00:22:48 <glx> yeah I'll try to do something to analyse spritesets
00:23:07 <frosch123> glx: you can also merge them during encoding
00:23:21 <frosch123> though that would only affect .grf output, not .nfo output
00:23:59 <glx> but it's probably better to merge them during preprocessing, that way stuff using them can be optimised too
00:24:14 <hythlodaeus> guys lmk if the feature suggestion i submitted for key shortcuts is clear enough
00:24:24 <hythlodaeus> it's essentially what we discussed the other day
00:24:35 <glx> like switches selecting between identical spritesets
00:25:53 <andythenorth> frosch123: realsprites 70 times - there will be a factor of 8 from the spritesets in the nml?
00:27:08 <frosch123> 22734 sprites are unique, 29104 appear twice, 2565 appear 3x or 4x, 434 appear 5x to 70x
00:27:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, different offsets count separate here
00:27:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: run above command on the .nfo
00:27:48 <andythenorth> ah, there is buy menu crap
00:28:03 <andythenorth> for $reasons all the buy menu realsprites are separate
00:28:26 <andythenorth> but often they're just resolving to same sprite as the default chain
00:28:56 <andythenorth> and buy menu also causes many realsprites to be generated in some cases
00:29:05 <frosch123> there should only be as many buy menu sprites as there are buy menu entries, so 200?
00:29:12 <glx> grfcodec seems to do a better job than nmlc for the size of the grf
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00:29:26 <frosch123> glx: they should be binary identical
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00:29:37 <frosch123> otherwise encoding options differ
00:30:08 <frosch123> the actual encoding code is the same, so they should not differ at all
00:30:10 <andythenorth> I should suppress the animated sprite warnings on slag cars :P
00:30:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7872: Default openttd.cfg world gen settings don't allow Forests in Sub-Arctic https://git.io/JeFfG
00:31:19 <Samu> auto adjustable snowline height based on terrain type?
00:31:41 * andythenorth runs the sed command
00:32:18 <nielsm> the issue is that terragen isn't really properly tuned for tropic or arctic
00:32:28 * andythenorth looks in generated/nml/covered_hopper_car_pony_gen_6C.nml
00:32:49 <Samu> adjusting the defaults would certainly help reduce the number of reports
00:32:57 <nielsm> the original terrain generator uses non-customisable values for those landscapes
00:33:12 <andythenorth> there are only 11 rows in that spritesheet :P
00:33:15 <nielsm> so tropical always gets a half/half map of desert and mountaneous rainforest
00:33:24 <nielsm> and arctic always gets an alpine map
00:33:30 <andythenorth> so 70 realsprites is excessive :)
00:33:30 <frosch123> try generating maps with ottd 1.2
00:33:38 <andythenorth> 'tropic is broken' :)
00:33:51 <frosch123> more heightlevels broke the map generator, and is as well maintained as nrt
00:34:02 <Samu> tropic becomes better the hillier it gets
00:35:16 <andythenorth> hmm some of the actual sprites are identical between rows
00:35:41 <Samu> just checking, a compromise between hilly and mountainous are best
00:36:09 <Samu> with mountainous there's more rainforest than hilly, but no rivers spawn
00:36:15 <Samu> with hilly there's rivers
00:36:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: 50% of the duplicate realsprites are because of symmetry?
00:36:59 <andythenorth> e.g. around L 235153
00:37:06 <andythenorth> in iron-horse.nfo
00:37:39 <frosch123> ok, so i should filter out sprites with size 1x1?
00:37:53 <andythenorth> nah, that's buy menu crap
00:38:07 <andythenorth> there are blocks where it's 4, then same offsets repeated
00:38:31 <andythenorth> pure bloat, but I don't know how else to handle that :)
00:38:46 <frosch123> ok, now sprites appear at most 4x times
00:39:01 <andythenorth> nielsm: ^^ that's proper tropic :D
00:39:24 <nielsm> and yes loaded the savegames from ttd dos into ottd for screenshotting
00:40:20 <frosch123> 5000 sprites are 1x1 dummies
00:41:14 <frosch123> yes, but that still leaves 55000 duplicates
00:41:41 <frosch123> grep generated/graphics iron-horse.nfo | sed 's/^[0-9]*//' | grep -v ' 1 1 0 0 normal' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n > dups.txt
00:41:55 <nielsm> I should really get to bed, can't escape work tomorrow
00:42:37 <Samu> i'm making a PR, just in case
00:42:48 <Samu> guess there's a bit of relunctancy regarding it
00:43:06 * andythenorth has declared christmas holiday, sorry nielsm :)
00:43:16 <andythenorth> 10 days of the year when I can stay up late :)
00:43:36 <frosch123> kids at grand parents?
00:43:55 <andythenorth> all family are together
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00:44:01 <andythenorth> I just don't have to do school run
00:44:12 <andythenorth> or anything similar
00:44:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7874: Change #7872: Defaults for snowline height decreased to 7, and terrain type raised to Hilly https://git.io/JeFJf
00:44:41 <Samu> I know it doesn't fix the underlying problem, but at least, factory defaults won't have the problem
00:44:43 <andythenorth> so if count is 1, is that 1 dup, or no dup?
00:45:12 <Samu> now I'm off to bed, cyas
00:45:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7874: Change #7872: Defaults for snowline height decreased to 7, and terrain type raised to Hilly https://git.io/JeFJT
00:45:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed pull request #7874: Change #7872: Defaults for snowline height decreased to 7, and terrain type raised to Hilly https://git.io/JeFJf
00:46:41 <frosch123> it's amount, so you won't find any 0
00:47:21 <frosch123> the "2" are probably caused by the flipping
00:47:25 * andythenorth looks in wyvern.nml
00:48:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7872: Default openttd.cfg world gen settings don't allow Forests in Sub-Arctic https://git.io/JeFfG
00:48:51 <frosch123> unreversed and unflipped?
00:49:00 <frosch123> what's the difference of reverse and flip? :p
00:49:28 <andythenorth> one is random, one is player
00:49:34 <andythenorth> I think I'm doing something odd there
00:49:45 <andythenorth> I suspect I can improve that
00:50:53 <andythenorth> reversible asymmetric vehicle needs 4 spritesets
00:51:11 <andythenorth> but should only need 2
00:51:36 <andythenorth> no wait, flipping it breaks the offsets, so it is 4
00:51:57 <frosch123> offsets are the same
00:52:13 <frosch123> are they 8/8 vehicles?
00:53:22 <andythenorth> they are 4/8, 6/8 ot 8/8
00:53:49 <andythenorth> otherwise I just can't position sprites correctly
00:54:17 <andythenorth> nobody else reports this problem, maybe I did it wrong
00:54:32 <frosch123> yes, but for 8/8 vehicles the offsets are the same for flipped and unflipped
00:55:46 <andythenorth> that just leaves the other lengths :)
00:56:05 <andythenorth> I could have the compile drop the 8/8 duplicates
00:58:02 <frosch123> some magic with the torpedo car
00:58:10 <frosch123> it's the only one with 3x sprites
00:59:11 <andythenorth> ok so this gives ideas
00:59:23 <andythenorth> I can see a few approaches to reduce duplicate generation
00:59:34 <andythenorth> or we should resolve it in the tools?
00:59:53 <frosch123> you can safe 5k sprites with fixing the 8/8 flipped
01:00:04 <andythenorth> probably worth adding string for
01:00:36 <frosch123> there is no solution to fix the other flipped currently. the sprites are duplicates for nml since the nml cache does not care about offsets, but they are different for the grf
01:01:03 <andythenorth> I can possibly resolve the buy menu to same realsprite as default chain in many cases
01:01:28 <frosch123> maybe nml statistic could detect the 1x1 transparent sprites, and count them separate
01:02:06 <andythenorth> is it weird that we compile 8 realsprites for every purchase menu, but only use 2
01:02:31 <andythenorth> eh, I could resolve them all to 'foo.png'
01:03:54 <andythenorth> 5189 realsprites containing '8bpp 60 10 1 1 0 0 normal'
01:05:53 <andythenorth> hmm, that's not a quick fix, I'd have to not use nml templates
01:06:46 <andythenorth> oh, looks like I can't do that with nml
01:07:19 * andythenorth considers find and replace on nfo :P
01:09:41 <glx> don't know the effect but seems it's what you want
01:10:45 <andythenorth> that appears to work
01:12:27 <andythenorth> nmlc info: 96272 sprites, 0 cached, 0 orphaned, 60313 duplicates, 35959 newly encoded (native)
01:12:38 <andythenorth> nmlc info: 91083 sprites, 35525 cached, 434 orphaned, 55558 duplicates, 0 newly encoded (native)
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01:16:43 <frosch123> nmlc info: 96272 sprites, 0 cached, 0 orphaned, 5189 trivial, 55558 duplicates, 35525 newly encoded (native)
01:17:06 <frosch123> well, no need to count them, if glx can remove them :)
01:17:46 <glx> oh not on my side, I haven't start coding yet
01:17:49 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, you enable cropping for neither nmlc nor for grfcodec
01:17:59 <andythenorth> I'll change that now
01:18:23 <glx> would be nice to remove animated warnings if possible
01:19:10 <frosch123> you know the "ANIM" keyword in spritesets?
01:20:08 <andythenorth> there is disabled support for it
01:21:50 * andythenorth forces it for now
01:41:10 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7868: Feature: NewGRF callback profiling https://git.io/JeFJo
01:42:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7868: Feature: NewGRF callback profiling https://git.io/JeFJK
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01:52:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft https://git.io/JeFJp
01:54:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft https://git.io/JeFJh
01:54:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft https://git.io/JeFUv
01:55:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft https://git.io/JeFUJ
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07:53:28 <andythenorth> I am an aircraft
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07:54:20 <Pikka> don't you know soviet transports can land on the head of a pin? realism.
07:56:22 <Pikka> remove all aircraft but zellepins?
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08:02:12 <andythenorth> covered hopper zellepin!
08:03:24 <andythenorth> covered hopper zellepin!
08:05:39 <andythenorth> Pikka: pls can you draw my pig iron torpedo car zellepins thx
08:06:25 <Pikka> only if you want them in 32bpp ez :)
08:07:14 <andythenorth> I do, but can you just use 256 colours, and draw them small?
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08:16:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft https://git.io/JeFqE
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08:25:40 <andythenorth> Pikka: can Avix India land at small airports in 1.10?
08:26:55 <Pikka> in av9.8 all prop planes are small and all jet planes are large
08:27:23 <andythenorth> that makes them consistent with cheat wording I reckon
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10:20:04 <andythenorth> vehicle realsprites don't have to be 8
10:25:13 <Pikka> 8 directional sprites in a set you mean?
10:27:39 <andythenorth> nml made me forget anything I ever knew :)
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13:14:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation https://git.io/JeeZx
13:14:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation https://git.io/JeFlI
13:18:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency https://git.io/JeR09
13:24:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation https://git.io/JeFlA
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13:52:59 * andythenorth had a 'No Stairway' rule for Horse
13:53:32 <andythenorth> no Garratts, no Deltics
13:53:41 * andythenorth is reconsidering the Garratt rule
13:53:51 <andythenorth> send answers on postcard, I'm going to pub
13:54:02 <andythenorth> high power freight engine is needed for 1930 :P
13:57:25 <floodious> just lacks some perfection... seems to work except the forest density ranges aren't trimmed right yet
13:57:39 <floodious> but dense forests on a 4k map are so slow
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14:04:07 <peter1138> Is it salad-time, andythenorth?
14:31:40 <peter1138> Not enough time to go the pub for lunch. Besides, other temptations lie there...
14:33:16 <peter1138> Mmm, one mince pie... same carolies as my huge salad.
14:34:05 <Samu> frosch ruined any hope of fixing this
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14:35:22 <peter1138> I'm glad you clarified which, but then again I don't particularly care either.
14:35:49 <Samu> snow line height really needs to be reduced
14:38:58 <peter1138> Good job it's an option you can change, eh?
14:40:22 <Samu> yes, but an out of the box openttd doesn't generate snow
14:59:07 <Samu> very flat doesn't generate forests at all even with snowline at the lowest value
14:59:36 <Samu> maybe "very flat" needs not to be extremelly flat
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15:10:00 <peter1138> Just use the non-TGP generator.
15:10:06 <peter1138> Much nicer for those maps anyway.
15:10:54 <floodious> it makes more sense to aim for a better map generator using different methods
15:11:07 <floodious> for example the basic perlin noise works well... for heightmaps
15:11:53 <peter1138> I was working on improving it but then couldn't be bothered :p
15:12:09 <peter1138> But yes, it could do with modularity. Maybe even scriptable, if performance is not an issue.
15:13:40 <floodious> but such a system is not used to then build a watertable estimate using methods like slope -> flats or valley, which can then be used to generate a "surface water" or "moisture" density map, which can then be used to generate realistic forests via species selection and such based upon factors like: slope, altitude (alpine = pines, hemlock, sparse, ... ?), slope direction (northern slopes = cooler, shadow = lower light intensity)
15:13:43 <Samu> with a default of 15, non-tgp also doesn't generate forests
15:14:03 <floodious> i'm implementing such systems atm :)
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15:15:11 <floodious> the snowline feature has always been limited, since it only works in the one climate vs. being a generic feature
15:15:57 <floodious> these are mostly eye-candy... although forests play a part in increasing construction cost
15:18:47 <peter1138> Yeah, I had a standalone generator that used different methods to make terrain. Shearing, etc.
15:18:56 <peter1138> But it was slow, as it used FP math.
15:22:59 <SpComb> what RV set fits best with classic DBSetXL?
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15:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> (also not on bananas)
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15:28:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you might have missed it
15:29:02 <floodious> yuley yule was the other day
15:32:37 <Pikka> andythenorth, why a high power freight engine for 1930s? Bigger than 8Fey?
15:34:57 <andythenorth> I keep double heading the smaller ones
15:35:29 <andythenorth> actually what's missing is 1800HP general purpose engine
15:35:50 <andythenorth> and I need to learn how to draw steam engines, instead of copying and pasting yours :P
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15:47:35 <Samu> snowline of 2 has 2 problems with sub-arctic
15:48:04 <Samu> remove the very flat option for arctic
15:48:50 <Samu> alternatively would be to make TG very flat preset, not so very flat
15:49:00 <nielsm> how about for arctic and tropical you always get a mixed landscape of the height variation you select mixed with the opposite of the height variation you select
15:49:01 <andythenorth> 9 year olds build strange things
15:49:02 <Samu> in order to be able to generate farms and forests
15:49:33 <supermop_work> 9 already andythenorth ?
15:49:43 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: thanks, that's what I remember playing with
15:49:59 <nielsm> so if you select Very Flat, you get a mix of areas with Very Flat and Alpinist, selecting Flat gets a mix of Flat/Mountanous, and selecting Hilly gets just all Hilly
15:49:59 <andythenorth> he has used canal cheat to build train line across sea
15:50:08 <andythenorth> and is now building aqueducts over it
15:50:46 <supermop_work> i guess i was 10 when i started playing TT
15:51:33 <supermop_work> a lot of building a giant pyramid mountain on which to crash as many kirby pauls as possible
15:51:44 <nielsm> received a copy of TTO on a set of floppies after a family gathering where an older cousin played the game with us younger kids
15:52:06 <supermop_work> i got it in a sale bin at best buy
15:52:18 <supermop_work> was less than $10
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15:52:29 <nielsm> later I got a boxed TTO+WE as a suparmarket bargain
15:53:33 <nielsm> and finally TTD as the windows version in the tycoon games collection (TTD, RCT, RRT2, was there one more in it?)
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15:56:58 <supermop_work> never played ttd
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16:12:43 <Pikka> huh... okay. I see why naming a variable "in" might be a bad idea :)
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16:18:57 <SpComb> is it possible to change dedicated server game settings from the client GUI?
16:22:52 <frosch123> not from the gui, just from the client console
16:24:05 <SpComb> shame that the GUI doesn't show the actual setting name, then
16:30:11 <andythenorth> takes ~2MB off filesize; compile time change is negligible
16:34:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: some of the duplicates are unavoidable, as they're the same offsets, but the block of 8 realsprites are ordered differently
16:34:32 <andythenorth> I tried writing a python script to analyse it, but list.find is achingly slow over 55k items :P
16:35:04 <glx> there's also a bunch of template duplicates ;)
16:35:32 <andythenorth> yes, I was trying to figure out a simple way to remove those
16:35:42 <andythenorth> without making the templates very hard to work with
16:35:57 <glx> I started to analyse them, so I merge duplicates, then I can analyse spritesets
16:36:41 <andythenorth> I did consider writing a duplicate resolver and inserting it between nml and grfcodec :P
16:36:45 <andythenorth> but eh, I'm not that good :)
16:37:40 <andythenorth> it's probably just reassigning references eh
16:40:27 <Samu> I just discovered something else, the min snow line height on original must be 4
16:40:32 <Samu> on terragenesis must be 3
16:40:43 <Samu> or else, farms fail to spawn
16:41:31 <Samu> adding injury to that, very flat terrain on terragenesis fails both farms and forests, the height is just too low
16:42:58 <frosch123> i wondered about making nml print even more numbers, like number of pseudosprites, bytes in code, bytes in graphics, number of action2s,...
16:43:07 <frosch123> but i guess i am just a spreadsheet nerd
16:43:40 <SpComb> hmm, you can't change vehicle.freight_trains during network games?
16:44:17 <frosch123> noone bothered to make the change-settings command reload newgrfs
16:44:32 <frosch123> i think it's possible, just noone did it
16:48:24 <frosch123> ofc, with the right newgrf, yuo can also just crash all clients at the same time :p
16:49:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: I am liking the numbers
16:57:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7872: Default openttd.cfg world gen settings don't allow Forests in Sub-Arctic https://git.io/JeFfG
17:00:51 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
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17:09:34 <frosch123> hmm, let's try whether i can convert that csv to something kcachegrind can read
17:09:40 <nielsm> I tried a bunch and found that one looked the best as high-res font in game :)
17:12:36 <peter1138> Remember when *everything* used Tahoma? I think that's why nobody uses it now :-)
17:12:44 <peter1138> Tahoma and Verdana, very much out of fashion now.
17:12:54 <nielsm> hmm... so many ways a GRF can be "active" with this
17:12:59 <andythenorth> oof, don't 'tidy up' history when you've already pushed :D
17:13:06 * andythenorth got shafted by conflicts :)
17:13:27 <nielsm> "loaded" as in the game has detected it and it can be used for games/activated in the newgrf configuration window
17:13:28 <andythenorth> rebase -i is lolz in the hands of idiots like me
17:13:43 <nielsm> "loaded" as in it's currently in use and active in the game
17:13:51 <nielsm> "active" can also mean the latter
17:14:14 <nielsm> and "active" can mean it's currently collecting profiling data, or that it's selected for profiling and can be started
17:14:38 <nielsm> I guess "available", "loaded", "active", "selected" ?
17:17:16 <Samu> alpinist is hard to configure
17:53:51 <frosch123> nielsm: all the grfids are printed in reversed byte order
17:56:16 * glx just added 450 warning lines to the huge amount of warning lines
17:56:45 <frosch123> 1.6 GB profile date for one month of NUTS in PSG325 :)
17:59:49 <frosch123> oh, i thought it would trace all switches
18:00:33 <frosch123> ok, so no callgrind graphs then
18:00:54 <nielsm> yeah it just counts depth, doesn't capture it
18:02:41 <frosch123> hmm, microseconds is often "1"
18:02:57 <nielsm> I have considered switching it to nanoseconds
18:03:38 <frosch123> i guess for a statistical analysis it's good enough
18:05:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7871: Fix: Snowline height interval is now 1, in both World Generation and Settings windows https://git.io/JeFzS
18:05:21 <glx> ok handling of duplicate templates seems to work
18:05:33 <glx> next step the duplicate spritesets
18:06:55 <andythenorth> glx: switched to pypy yet btw? :)
18:07:00 * andythenorth waited about 4 years too long
18:07:19 <glx> no I don't mind the slow compile
18:07:28 <glx> it's still faster than building openttd :)
18:10:45 <andythenorth> glx: so I shouldn't optimise away your test cases :)
18:10:54 * andythenorth considering making crazy templates to drop unused things :P
18:11:05 <glx> oh there's enough test cases left I think
18:12:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft https://git.io/JeFzx
18:15:55 <LordAro> frosch123: add an enum type to #7863 (railtype fixes), or just shipit?
18:19:46 <frosch123> i started a branch to add enums for all settings, about 60, but it's kind of boring :p
18:20:35 <floodious> would c-string identifiers work?
18:21:22 <floodious> for less frequently accessed data, i use a string-based database with hierarchical maps (string id -> string data + child nodes)
18:22:29 <floodious> the overhead for interpreting strings is quite alright if they're config values that can be read and cached in native format by the object reading them
18:22:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7859: Feature #7756: Allow server to supply a reason to kicked/banned clients https://git.io/JeFgL
18:22:49 <LordAro> frosch123: i'll just merge for now then :)
18:27:44 <floodious> config.find("client.gui.default.rail-type") == config["client"]["gui"]["default"]["rail-type"]
18:29:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys https://git.io/JeFgn
18:30:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7845: Add: a TextColour flag to ignore colour changes from strings https://git.io/JeFgl
18:30:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7845: Add: a TextColour flag to ignore colour changes from strings https://git.io/JePiz
18:30:29 * andythenorth wonders what to optimise next :P
18:30:43 <andythenorth> or whether to add more vehicles, and unoptimise all benefits :P
18:31:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7788: Doc: Convert known_bugs.txt to markdown format https://git.io/JeFgR
18:31:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed pull request #7788: Doc: Convert known_bugs.txt to markdown format https://git.io/JeFg0
18:32:33 <floodious> a couple things i've noticed are seriously lacking for newgrfs are: hierarchical organization + versioning, and detailed information about what exactly they do included directly in the interface
18:33:02 <floodious> so there might be 15 different versions of the same newgrf with different names, for example
18:33:51 <floodious> adding "tags" like "obsolete"/"compatibility" might help by hiding them from indexing by default
18:34:12 <andythenorth> I tend to agree about md, I find it ugly, but I lost that argument to TB :)
18:34:35 <andythenorth> these 'human readable, but only if you don't mind ugly' text formats :P
18:35:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JeFgz
18:37:20 <andythenorth> cleaning house LordAro?
18:37:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JeFga
18:37:56 <LordAro> andythenorth: well if we're doing a (beta) release in 2 days...
18:38:19 <andythenorth> I was going to release a grf for christmas
18:38:23 <andythenorth> but...I didn't :)
18:38:25 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: pls can we get #7000 done? :)
18:38:31 <floodious> usual cycle includes a "release candidate" = "feature freeze" period
18:39:02 <andythenorth> was I the blocker to 7000?
18:39:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #7424: Add: Kdtree for AirportGetNearestTown https://git.io/fjGaF
18:39:43 <LordAro> andythenorth: last time i checked eddi had to remove a commit from the PR
18:40:10 <nielsm> floodious: feature freeze here is after branching
18:40:31 <LordAro> nielsm: review #7424 ?
18:40:54 <LordAro> floodious: we branch then release RC1, indeed
18:41:08 <LordAro> then we can break everything in master again
18:43:00 <LordAro> andythenorth: also keen to get the majority of the remaining language changes in as early as possible
18:44:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency https://git.io/JeFgi
18:44:42 <LordAro> oh wait, it conflicts
18:45:40 * glx created most of the conflicts
18:46:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load https://git.io/JeFgD
18:46:40 <LordAro> i'd like someone else to review ^
18:47:06 <nielsm> I keep finding my title for #7353 ridiculous, just because it's five long words in a row
18:52:27 <andythenorth> might be regrettable :)
18:52:57 <andythenorth> we have feedback on 1.9 btw, the multiple docks are very liked ;P
18:53:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7424: Add: Kdtree for AirportGetNearestTown https://git.io/JeFgx
18:53:34 <andythenorth> he immediately built an island and attached loads of docks to it
18:54:07 <nielsm> I should stop reviewing code and get over to the supermarket before it gets entirely cleared
18:54:17 <nielsm> three days with (almost) no stores open ahead
18:54:45 <andythenorth> nielsm: important not to starve
18:57:51 <Samu> wasn't terragenesis supposed to create really high maps?
18:58:07 <Samu> i created a script to get the highest tile height I can find on a map
18:58:42 <andythenorth> TGP has various 'flatten' things
18:58:48 <andythenorth> code is documented
18:59:01 * andythenorth can't remember which does what, but it's all there to read
19:00:15 <andythenorth> start around line 230 or so
19:01:26 * andythenorth wonders about replacing TGP with a height map generator :P
19:04:44 <Samu> says at line 234 I should get a max height of 87
19:05:03 <peter1138> So the problem with high maps is they don't work at all because there's no cliffs.
19:05:07 <frosch123> nielsm: writing the 1.6 GB file actually took so long, that the files from different grfs have different HHMM
19:05:28 <frosch123> that makes it hard to match the files in a script
19:05:33 <peter1138> Everything is smoothed out due to only 1 height difference between each tile, and the balance towards sea-level.
19:05:41 <Samu> nevermind, iwas doing mountainous, not alpinist :(
19:06:33 <floodious> the fixed difference means to get a height of 255 means you'd need a width of minimally 256
19:06:40 <floodious> since the only slope is 45 degrees
19:07:20 <peter1138> floodious, so can you implement floods? ;)
19:08:12 <floodious> i'm still improving it, moved on to doing heightmap + lakes + rivers + surface water runoff maps = generating realistic forests, etc
19:09:03 <floodious> samu: ah, i meant half the slope, but yeah twice that to get both sides, so 512x512 would only barely reach 255 at the very center with all tiles fully sloped
19:09:16 <floodious> ~63 is a more realistic height range
19:10:03 <floodious> peter1138; mostly i just flood the irc channel here
19:10:30 <peter1138> A 255 high 512x512 map would be pretty boring.
19:10:50 <floodious> hey, don't badmouth the Egyptians
19:11:08 <floodious> even though tetrahedrons are way cooler
19:11:13 <peter1138> I'd like more than 255 levels in Minecraft though.
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19:12:06 <floodious> tetrahedrons really are way cooler, if you're cooling a volume, since they have the maximum surface area to volume ratio
19:13:12 <LordAro> peter1138: they already doubled it, what more do you want? :p
19:13:31 <LordAro> hmm, that was like 5 years ago
19:13:38 <peter1138> Imagine the memory consumption of that, heh...
19:13:59 <peter1138> Also 64km would be somewhat excessive.
19:14:20 <LordAro> you'd be falling for an hour
19:14:23 <floodious> we're 64-bit these days, 52-bit mantissa? so 4503599627370496 levels?
19:14:28 * andythenorth tries some heightmap generators
19:14:35 <andythenorth> they don't really work, they're all realistic
19:14:49 <LordAro> andythenorth: find one with a "no cliffs" option :p
19:14:56 <andythenorth> they're all kind of meh
19:15:03 <andythenorth> sometimes I try the original map gen for lolz
19:16:37 <andythenorth> original is sad :)
19:16:54 <andythenorth> in some ways it's a really nice not-too-realistic game world
19:17:06 <andythenorth> and in other ways it's horribly not-realistic, square edges everywhere
19:17:18 <peter1138> Original can be nice with the right settings.
19:17:24 <andythenorth> original spanks TGP for tropic
19:17:49 <andythenorth> it makes really nice forested hills and oases
19:17:58 <LordAro> almost as if it were designed for it
19:18:08 * peter1138 ponders prepping dinrar.
19:18:30 <floodious> it's still missing a ton of river courses and lakes
19:20:07 <floodious> it's quite quick to use image editing software to draw pixel-art level detail to fix up issues... but i'm still working on my patches to the heightmap import to make it work ideally
19:20:37 <andythenorth> maybe we should improve original map gen
19:21:10 <andythenorth> original offers much more involved building in a smaller space
19:21:22 <andythenorth> the terrain tends to vary more
19:21:32 <floodious> it's hard to improve without making things extremely complex, and to generate a good map it's a difficult balance of realism vs. play-ability where they two are really in conflict
19:21:55 <andythenorth> TGP tends to big boring lumps of hill, and flat plains
19:22:06 <andythenorth> it's not very game-like
19:22:14 <andythenorth> might be ok for model trains
19:22:25 <milek7_> could we now have cliffs with 3D renderer? ;)
19:22:45 <Samu> i feel like tweaking that table
19:23:10 <Samu> there's not a single 6 there, any special reason
19:23:26 <glx> nmlc is so slow when I add print() everywhere
19:23:27 <floodious> cliffs are an engine issue, not a rendering issue (although they are too, with bitmap/tile graphic sources)... doing a flexible slope feature would really be a whole new game
19:24:04 <Samu> the minimum value you got there is 3, i tested 3, 4, 5 and 7
19:24:17 <Samu> all fail to generate forests except 7
19:24:28 <Samu> i suppose 6 will be the better minimum for forests
19:25:08 <Samu> it kind of makes "very flat" more like "flat"
19:27:16 <Samu> i think 6 will work, must test
19:28:46 * andythenorth removes the 8/8 spriteset optimiser
19:29:37 <glx> lol my log file is too big for notepad++
19:32:41 <floodious> log_level = insaneverbose
19:33:23 <Samu> 64x64 arctic always fail
19:33:51 <Samu> either forests, printing works, farms etc...
19:34:49 <Samu> 6 is the absolute minimum to have everything generated on arctic
19:35:19 <Samu> I thinkg removing Very Flat from arctic is a better option
19:36:05 <Samu> the other option is raising all those 3 from Very Flat into 6
19:37:07 <Samu> a snowline of 2 always fails for farms
19:39:46 <Samu> something like this: { 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 8, 9 }, ///< Very flat
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19:45:58 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:46:32 <Samu> I think i prefer the removal of very flat from arctic
19:53:00 * andythenorth wonders whether to save a few thousand more sprites :P
20:19:47 <supermop_work> quiet at office
20:21:07 <Wolf01> Yeah... "boss, I finished my work" "ok" "what could I do for the remaining 2 hours?" "ok"
20:22:59 <andythenorth> I don't love it, but I tried to give it a fair go
20:31:34 <andythenorth> ^ if that used IDs it would be auto-replace compatible
20:31:44 <andythenorth> I'd propose putting the livery on a new text cb
20:32:17 <andythenorth> it could also put some fancy user bits into the vehicle alternately
20:48:47 <peter1138> That old chestnut, eh?
20:49:38 <glx> hmm I count 714 duplicate spritesets
20:54:52 <andythenorth> I could make more?
20:54:56 <andythenorth> that's not very many
20:55:42 <glx> now let's try the optimisation
20:56:53 <nielsm> glx: also interesting if the sprite deduplication can help switches become identical and get merged/simplified
20:57:40 <glx> that's why I started with templates, and now spritesets
21:05:08 <Samu> i want to access those values in the table via genworld_gui.cpp
21:05:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7871: Fix: Snowline height interval is now 1, in both World Generation and Settings windows https://git.io/JeFfI
21:07:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load https://git.io/fjlA7
21:07:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7430: Vehicle waiting at station affects cargo age rating even if it did not pick up cargo https://git.io/fjT4D
21:11:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone dismissed a review for pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeF2W
21:17:14 <andythenorth> the 9 year old said it's silly having ctrl-click for painted liveries
21:17:22 <andythenorth> he said I should just put them in the buy menu :P
21:19:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeFVR
21:21:49 <andythenorth> he thinks ctrl-click is for swapping the company colour
21:23:26 <andythenorth> I'm not convinced about making the main buy menu 8x longer :P
21:24:06 <FLHerne> andythenorth: There should be different depot types for each real-world or fictional operator
21:24:30 <FLHerne> So you can only buy LMS trains in LMS depots
21:24:38 <andythenorth> 'DB Schenker' railtype
21:24:42 <FLHerne> Yeah, possible already, just a stupid idea :P
21:24:45 <andythenorth> that's such a horrible and totally workable idea
21:27:11 <andythenorth> how many railtypes now? :P
21:27:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: what's the problem with a long purchase list? should it automatically scroll to the middle (between latest engine and first wagon) on opening?
21:29:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: try Iron Horse 2 with 'engines never expire'? :)
21:30:18 <andythenorth> actually the main issue is just mis-clicking :P
21:30:33 <andythenorth> and the time to scroll to find things
21:33:50 <Samu> just found another issue, the max snowline height is -3 of the max height level, in order to have forests
21:36:41 <Samu> with maximum height being 15, the highest tile is of height 14
21:37:24 <Samu> it's not really 15, but 14
21:38:45 <Samu> on the original, 15 is really 15
21:38:55 <Samu> seems like a bug with terragenesis only
21:50:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency https://git.io/JeFgi
21:50:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency https://git.io/fhho4
21:50:38 <nielsm> LordAro: rebased and squashed
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21:53:23 <Samu> gonna try this on line 238 tgp.cpp
21:53:26 <Samu> return I2H(min(max_height_from_table, _settings_game.construction.max_heightlevel + 1));
21:57:04 <Samu> I wonder if this +1 breaks something somewhere
22:30:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7875: Fix: TerraGenesis was not generating maps at the requested maximum height https://git.io/JeFwS
22:35:41 <glx> debugging my code is so slow, and of course the stuff I need to debug happens at the end of the preprocessing phase
22:38:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7875: Fix: TerraGenesis was not generating maps at the requested maximum height https://git.io/JeFwx
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22:41:18 <andythenorth> oof 90 trains, 17 road vehicles in my game
22:41:24 <andythenorth> so glad I made that big RV set ;D
22:41:53 <frosch123> blame firs. the author removed farm clusters, so rv feeders are pointless
22:42:47 <frosch123> also, remove those cargo acceptance limits from firs :p
22:43:41 <andythenorth> they are confusing
22:43:47 <andythenorth> I can't even find them
22:43:51 <andythenorth> how confusing is that?
22:44:21 <frosch123> probably some ai taking over
22:46:15 <andythenorth> probably the default one
22:47:29 <Samu> seems that max snow line height is -2 of max height level with the fix
22:50:32 <andythenorth> I enjoyed the 'optimise Iron Horse game', but I think I've played too much
22:52:20 <andythenorth> I can play 'optimise FIRS' some time
22:53:09 <andythenorth> it's a 23s compile with mixed py3.8 / pypy
22:53:18 <andythenorth> if I use procedures, I think a lot of code can go
22:53:51 <glx> if only it was so fast for me
22:54:06 <glx> but I think my changes increase compilation time
22:54:16 <andythenorth> got a branch yet?
22:54:44 <glx> because checking duplicates means iterate loops
22:55:16 <glx> it's in the same branch as switches, but not pushed yet
22:55:44 <andythenorth> maybe I can stop being the maintainer :)
22:55:59 <Samu> hmm that fix is slightly wrong :(
22:56:28 <frosch123> glx: can you compute some kind of hash? so that you can lookup duplicate candidates using it?
22:56:30 <glx> and printing all these warnings probably doesn't help
22:58:23 <nielsm> glx: can you perhaps pickle the intermediate preprocessed stuff from nmlc so skip some parts not relevant to your testing?
22:59:07 <andythenorth> ^ this resets my expectation of reddit back to normal
22:59:50 <frosch123> haha, print it and put it on a wall
22:59:56 <glx> but the error I need to debug (well for now I just want to know what it is) comes from early preprocessing, so I'll need to reprocess anyway
23:00:35 <andythenorth> newgrf is confusing eh
23:00:47 <andythenorth> but the clue is in "This are the sets I'm using. And I see one that it doesn't work (fatal problem)"
23:01:16 <glx> and of course last time I made a typo when writing the try-except to put a breakpoint on crash
23:01:43 <glx> and you can't know there's a typo until it reaches the code
23:02:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think there is an error popup every time the game is loaded. maybe it should popup every minute or so
23:02:18 <frosch123> just to annoy people to quit the game
23:03:17 <glx> finally reached my breakpoint \o/
23:03:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeFrC
23:03:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, the error does not matter, there is a fix just below it
23:04:07 <andythenorth> yes, that version of FIRS will work fine
23:07:01 <nielsm> yeah isn't that only for FIRS 1 ?
23:07:39 <frosch123> i doubt anyone but the author knows what it does
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23:09:26 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7875: Fix: TerraGenesis was not generating maps at the requested maximum height https://git.io/JeFrR
23:10:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed pull request #7875: Fix: TerraGenesis was not generating maps at the requested maximum height https://git.io/JeFwS
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23:15:03 <Samu> instead of return I2H(min(max_height_from_table, _settings_game.construction.max_heightlevel + 1));
23:15:10 <Samu> it's return I2H(min(max_height_from_table, _settings_game.construction.max_heightlevel) + 1);
23:15:10 <glx> hmm ok the duplicate checks properly find duplicates, but it may replace spriteset refs with spritesets defined after the ref
23:27:08 <Samu> yes, that's more like it
23:27:19 <Samu> now if it's 15 in the table, it's 15 in the outcome
23:27:31 <Samu> if it's 15 as user defined, it's 15 in the outcome
23:29:29 <Samu> but this results in a +1 to all heights from the table
23:31:30 <glx> nmlc warning: ".\example_train.nml", line 137: Spriteset 'set_icm_purchase' is a duplicate of spriteset 'set_icm' defined at ".\example_train.nml", line 324, optimising. <-- that's a funny bug, but I know why so it should be easy
23:31:58 <glx> (and yes I have a smaller test case)
23:43:37 <Samu> difficult to make a good gui around snowline
23:44:06 <Samu> I'm trying the auto-adjustments to the snow line as the user changes the settings around
23:46:35 * andythenorth considers adding more vehicles
23:46:43 <andythenorth> the livery UI thing is blah blah
23:46:48 <frosch123> glx: you may run into the problem that nml cannot reference earlier spritesets when the ids expired. however there is a different action1 format which allows finer control over the scope of action1 ids. there is some initial diff in https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3739 , though it does not much
23:47:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: what happened to the roster idea?
23:47:57 <andythenorth> by country? or the railtype idea from earlier today?
23:48:07 <glx> the issue is solved, it's just because spriteset are registered before preprocessing, and I forgot to stop the loop if a spriteset finds itself
23:50:45 <Video_Game_Play> how i stop industries from shut down
23:51:35 <glx> you need to serve them, but oil wells will always shut down at some point
23:52:05 <nielsm> also when an industry has announced it is shutting down, there is nothing to do
23:53:02 <andythenorth> how about using subtypes to set wagon livery?
23:53:12 <nielsm> primary industries shut down if their production falls to zero, secondary industries have a risk of shutting down every month if they haven't produced anything for 5 years
23:55:14 <glx> now retrying the slow test
23:58:13 <andythenorth> every game needs a carbon black hopper wagon
23:58:18 * andythenorth decides to split things up more
23:58:27 <glx> oh this early exit seems to also improve the speed :)
continue to next day ⏵
