IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-12-07
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02:41:59 <FLHerne> $ find nml -type f -print0 | xargs -0 sed -i -E 's|(nmlop\.[A-Z_]*\([^()]*)expression\.ConstantNumeric\(([^(),]*), [A-Za-z0-9.]*pos\)|\1\2|g'
02:42:19 <FLHerne> This is getting silly, I should sleep
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10:51:00 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #112: Suggestion: Make author and date added always publicly visible on bananas.openttd.org https://git.io/JeDiD
10:51:00 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #112: Suggestion: Make author and date added always publicly visible on bananas.openttd.org https://git.io/JeDiD
10:52:11 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #96: www.openttd.org always shows "Login" instead of "Logout (account name)" https://git.io/fj9Sd
10:52:11 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #96: www.openttd.org always shows "Login" instead of "Logout (account name)" https://git.io/fj9Sd
10:53:13 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #61: Does the website have a multilingual plan? https://git.io/fhbw1
10:56:48 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #82: Discussion basis for rework of the general HTML structure and the CSS rules https://git.io/Jeyyg
10:56:57 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #84: Change: semantic HTML-elements for the pages main sections and corresponding CSS-rules https://git.io/Jeyya
10:57:13 <TrueBrain> well, that cleans up the website repo
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11:56:37 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i still don't like closing issues that haven't been fixed just because "no one cares enough to fix them"
11:57:13 <LordAro> not sure what to do with those PRs though, they're all in various states of disuse
11:58:50 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I still don't like keeping things open nobody is going to do anything with :)
11:59:27 <LordAro> it's not like they're costing CPU time or disk space...
11:59:44 <TrueBrain> so these kind of arguments fall kinda flat ;)
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12:00:42 <TrueBrain> but what you experience, is the typical hoarder effect wel all carry
12:00:58 <TrueBrain> keeping something for keeps, is not a good reason to keep :)
12:01:09 <TrueBrain> but somehow our human nature loves keeeeepping :D
12:03:04 <TrueBrain> anyway, LordAro, please do something with these PRs. Otherwise I will close them. This is not helping any other contributions. If I would walk by and see these PRs open in the state they are, I would keep on walking ;) I would like to prevent that if possible :)
12:04:26 <TrueBrain> and don't get me wrong, I do appreciate you wanted to tackle the HTML of the website. But please either finish it, or let it go :)
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12:14:24 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm not sure "has (old) open PRs" would prevent many people from contributing if they wanted to
12:15:36 <TrueBrain> these kind of PRs will
12:17:06 <TrueBrain> as it goes, no action is worse than any action :)
12:18:14 <TrueBrain> (basically, if someone walks in now and things: why is this website not HTML5? And wants to fix it .. looks in the PRs .. see 3 attempts to do so .. see they are stale .. it needs a special kind of person to add a 4th variant to that :P It is just less likely)
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12:20:46 <TrueBrain> and I would really love for you to finish the HTML5 conversion you picked up, but it is also okay if you say: I will focus on something else. But at least that makes it clear where it stands :) (and again, I mean this with the most positive amount of energy you can imagine :D)
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12:32:30 <andythenorth_> I AM SELLING CHRISTMAS TREES
12:37:46 <andythenorth_> if you collect yes
12:38:01 * andythenorth_ has been up since 5.30am
12:38:13 <andythenorth_> 170 trees on a truck
12:39:05 <andythenorth_> responsible adulting
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13:01:54 <TrueBrain> "if you collect".. how is that a delivery?! Pfft :P
13:20:16 <FLHerne> In case anyone wants to spend their Saturday reviewing a lot of very similar lines :P
13:27:59 <FLHerne> I did consider implementing __add__() for Expression
13:28:39 <FLHerne> But I think that might be confusing
13:29:29 <FLHerne> `BinOp(nmlop.ADD, foo, ConstantNumeric(foo.pos), foo.pos)` <- before
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13:29:56 <FLHerne> *ConstantNumeric(0x42, foo.pos)
13:30:14 <FLHerne> `nmlop.ADD(foo, 0x42)` <- with this
13:30:30 <FLHerne> `foo + 0x42` <- possible, but ???
13:31:16 <FLHerne> Also, the `<<<` operators couldn't be represented in Python
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15:22:02 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Argh, you could have told me FIRS didn't do reproducible builds :P
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15:23:03 <FLHerne> I just spent half an hour trying to find out why my no-actual-changes patch was changing the output
15:23:33 <FLHerne> But FIRS shuffles these `basic_oxygen_furnace_min_distance_7` things around all on its own
15:24:12 <FLHerne> In hindsight, I have no idea why I was rerunning the whole compile and not just nmlc on firs.nml...
15:24:17 * FLHerne is an idiot, probably
15:27:26 <andythenorth> which python version FLHerne ?
15:27:46 <andythenorth> so it's not dicts then
15:28:14 * andythenorth wonders what yields in a non-deterministic way
15:30:38 <FLHerne> I don't suppose it really matters
15:31:44 <FLHerne> Determinism only matters if someone cares, and my only reason for caring was stupid :P
15:44:33 <peter1138> yay i finally got out on a weekend ride
15:48:39 <andythenorth> I sold some trees and went in a hot tub
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16:11:16 <LordAro> i get to clean mine in preparation for tomorrow
16:11:27 <LordAro> it's quite brown right now
16:13:07 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so how about a new website then? o_O
16:13:20 <andythenorth> I did write a draft, but it got feedback, so it went nowhere :P
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16:39:15 <andythenorth> ouch IO on about 400 files takes about 9.8s
16:39:27 <andythenorth> that's not ideal
16:40:43 <andythenorth> I only write them in case I need to debug the nml per vehicle :P
17:02:42 <snail_UES_> anyone has ideas about this?
17:03:06 <snail_UES_> I’m told the bug exists because colorful text in menus is an unintended feature of OTTD...
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17:06:29 <andythenorth> I doubt it was envisaged to be supported
17:14:04 <frosch123> i thought that was fixed
17:14:05 <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: my opinion is that this is a case which should be handled like discussed a few weeks ago, where i suggested the string drawing function gets a colour remap passed, so things like "draw all black as white" or "add shading for disabled" can be handled independent from the string colour codes
17:17:23 <frosch123> ah, the push/pop stuff was only addes for gs
17:18:09 <snail_UES_> frosch123: I see, so push/pop wouldn’t work in this case?
17:18:27 <frosch123> it's currently not available for newgrf apparently
17:18:55 <frosch123> it is a recent addition, but i can't remember the original usecase
17:19:38 <snail_UES_> Eddi|zuHause: right, so this would require a new OTTD feature?
17:20:34 <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: yes. ideally, your original string should Just Work(tm)
17:20:38 <frosch123> maybe the PR was just incomplete
17:20:49 * andythenorth wishes compiles were faster, I no longer notice the 20 seconds I saved last weekend :P
17:20:56 <andythenorth> just the 40 seconds that still exist :P
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17:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you should add preemptive compiling
17:22:10 <andythenorth> what, I compile last weekend for results this weekend? o_O
17:22:20 <andythenorth> or I run a batch job every 41s?
17:22:30 <frosch123> it works if you keep reverting stuff
17:23:37 <andythenorth> I have quite a lot of ideas I try and then remove
17:23:41 <snail_UES_> alright, so I’ll just release my set as it is :)
17:23:44 <andythenorth> so I could just not bother testing those
17:23:49 <andythenorth> faster compiles :)
17:24:14 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: but do you have to recompile the entire set if you just change one small thing?
17:24:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you have qbits, you can nondeterministically compile all edits you're about to make, and once you finish your edit, the correct version was already compiled for you
17:24:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause I can rent time on someone's qbit cloud service
17:24:41 <snail_UES_> can’t you use distributed files, and only recompile the file you’re working on?
17:24:43 <andythenorth> might be microsoft, can't remember
17:24:46 <frosch123> snail_UES_: so, when was your discussion with peter? april 2018?
17:25:06 <andythenorth> snail_UES_: TL;DR no :)
17:25:24 <snail_UES_> frosch123: actually, I just read documentation. I sent this message to Peter about last week
17:25:38 <andythenorth> hmm, can I insert directly into a grf file?
17:25:38 <snail_UES_> but I made it public because I thought others might have had ideas as well
17:26:06 <frosch123> well, someone had the same problem in 2018. but it was only solved for gs or possibly ottd itself
17:26:27 <snail_UES_> I see, with the introduction of PUSH and POP?
17:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: in my quick search, i found code that translates PUSH/POP for newgrf strings. why does that not work?
17:28:10 <frosch123> snail_UES_: actually, it was added for newgerf
17:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "case 0x1F: d += Utf8Encode(d, SCC_PUSH_COLOUR); break;"
17:28:38 <snail_UES_> ok… so perhaps my syntax is wrong?
17:29:48 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: because that was in a different PR, from april 2019
17:30:05 <frosch123> so, the original feature was from april 2018, and newgrf support was added in april 2019
17:30:37 <snail_UES_> alright, so which version of ottd should I use?
17:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so, the next question would be, which version is snail_UES_ using?
17:30:46 <snail_UES_> I’m using 1.9.1 which maybe is too early...
17:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, 1.9 won't work when the docs say 1.10
17:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.10 means current nightly
17:31:24 <snail_UES_> ok. Time for me to upgrade :p
17:31:49 <Eddi|zuHause> beta1 should also work
17:32:41 <snail_UES_> 1.10.0-beta1 released on 2019/10/30
17:33:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that should be fine
17:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if the feature was included in nightlies in april, then october version should have it :p
17:34:46 <snail_UES_> I’ll try something like thus
17:34:59 <snail_UES_> "Metric gauge line construction (axle weight: " T_PUSH T_ORANGE "11t" T_POP ")",
17:36:43 <snail_UES_> works!! thanks, guys :)
17:37:03 <snail_UES_> I’ll add a post to my thread to specify which version needs to be used
17:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: but i agree with planetmaker, that the colours are a bit much
17:37:29 <glx> there used to be a way to check the version in the grf
17:37:35 <snail_UES_> I’ll have another look into that
17:37:50 <glx> but I think it doesn't work since the move to github
17:37:54 <snail_UES_> maybe the tones of grey are not easily readable on the grey background
17:38:28 <frosch123> glx: it does work, but what would the grf do instead?
17:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: yes, grey and this faded yellow are not great colours there. also that the colours are all over the place is not good. it would be better if the colours were aligned somehow
17:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea how alingment could be achieved, though
17:41:49 <snail_UES_> true, but the text is longer for certain railtypes
17:42:39 <snail_UES_> “Light/Standard/Heavy” metric gauge construction (axle weight: XX t, power source: Catenary/ThirdRail) (max speed: XX km/h)
17:42:53 <snail_UES_> maybe something like this would look better
17:43:27 <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: you won't be able to affect this from newgrf, but ideally all the (XX km/h) should be aligned, and the (weight: YY t) as well
17:43:45 <snail_UES_> I agree, but that’s not easily achieved
17:44:09 <snail_UES_> also, different languages construct the same phrase differently, moving words around
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17:48:47 * andythenorth adding features that will almost never be used :P
18:00:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's about every feature ever.
18:00:59 <andythenorth> this one is marginal than that
18:01:05 <andythenorth> I'll never use it, in most cases :P
18:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, that's the death of a feature. if ANDY doesn't use it, nobody will. ever.
18:02:38 <peter1138> Hmm, is 3.6 GHz a good CPU speed for an OpenTTD server...?
18:03:23 <peter1138> Quad-core Xeon will be better than the Dual-core Celeron it replaced though, right?
18:04:03 <andythenorth> are you shopping?
18:05:10 <glx> remember OTTD mostly use only 1 core anyway
18:06:05 <andythenorth> well you can autosave 4x faster now :P
18:06:45 <peter1138> glx, 2.4 -> 3.6, and of course more cache.
18:07:07 <peter1138> Of course, I don't play OpenTTD, so it's irrelevant ;)
18:07:09 <glx> yeah and xeon is better than celeron too
18:08:43 <andythenorth> is minecraft MP aware? :P
18:10:15 <glx> macros so you can reduce copy/paste
18:11:30 <snail_UES_> thx for your feedback, I simplified my text coloring schema. I felt that red-brown and grey-green were especially tough to read
18:21:33 <snail_UES_> btw, doesn’t ottd 1.10.0 include NRT?
18:35:00 <snail_UES_> alright… when I click on “build roads”, it only gives me one type though. I guess it’s because I haven’t got any new road GRFs installed, right?
18:38:54 <Eddi|zuHause> without NewGRFs, NRT does nothing
18:41:59 <snail_UES_> I just downloaded RattRoads, it looks nice :)
18:43:52 <andythenorth> I should fix the global toolbar icon for NRT
18:43:59 <andythenorth> that dude in forums drew a new one
18:44:18 <andythenorth> but I don't know if I'm allowed to use it, because we broke airplane crashes or something
18:45:28 <frosch123> oh, andy will update opengfx?
18:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i should just ignore any sentence of andy which contains variants of the word "broken"
18:46:33 <frosch123> anyway, supermop or supercheese also drew some nrt icons in ogfx style some years ago
18:46:39 <frosch123> they are probably somewhere
18:46:52 <andythenorth> we've broken savegames or something
18:47:17 <andythenorth> should chemicals tank cars refit to sulphur?
18:47:19 <andythenorth> important questions
18:47:55 <andythenorth> hmm, but I can't be bothered to repaint them :)
18:48:41 <nielsm> andythenorth: we're breaking savegames that depend on large airplanes being able to land on short runways
18:48:49 <nielsm> is what the complaint is about
18:49:07 <andythenorth> what was the warranty again?
18:49:26 <frosch123> was the cheat removed?
18:49:52 <andythenorth> what does the cheat mean though?
18:49:58 <andythenorth> it adjusts the probability?
18:50:08 <frosch123> the cheat made all short runways act like long
18:50:22 <andythenorth> but it still has a random chance of crash?
18:50:57 <andythenorth> weird setting is weird eh
18:51:05 <andythenorth> plane crashes: None
18:51:09 <andythenorth> except they will
18:51:17 <andythenorth> software is hard :P
18:51:31 <andythenorth> so neither setting nor cheat prevent crashes?
18:51:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: haven't we changed that to "None*"?
18:52:01 <frosch123> ah, i'll file it under, noone is willing to read up on it
18:52:06 <nielsm> it's arbitrary plane crashes that happen for no reason at all (i.e. disasters) that are disabled by that setting
18:52:32 <andythenorth> it's all clear as mud :)
18:53:09 <andythenorth> anyway, that NRT tram track building sprite is improved imho
18:53:24 <andythenorth> I was an idiot when I drew the original
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19:23:47 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: my tank wagons are refittable to sulphur
19:23:58 <andythenorth> what about your chemicals tankers? :)
19:24:10 <snail_UES_> I only have one kind of tank wagons :p
19:24:19 <snail_UES_> small NG trains, remember?...
19:24:47 <snail_UES_> maybe you can do an in-game recoloring if you don’t want to draw new graphics altogether?
19:25:14 <andythenorth> it's more of a design issue :)
19:25:22 <andythenorth> I designed them to be shiny with 1CC area
19:25:38 <andythenorth> sulphur is yellow, but there's no space to paint a yellow section
19:25:56 <andythenorth> normal tank cars I already did this though :)
19:29:42 <snail_UES_> yeah, I repaint my tankers in yellow when I load them with sulphur
19:30:36 <snail_UES_> same as edible oil :p and acid can also randomly be like that
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19:45:50 <DorpsGek_III_> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:55:27 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grossws commented on pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys https://git.io/JeyNz
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20:54:56 <andythenorth> glx do the macros have any effect on compile time? o_O
20:55:15 <andythenorth> i.e. are they templating the input, or the output?
21:05:30 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne left a comment on commit: Add: nmlc option to force regeneration of parser tables https://git.io/JeyxL
21:08:54 <glx> they are replaced at compile
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21:15:22 <andythenorth> ok so compile time is ~constant
21:15:45 * andythenorth wonders about templating the final output :P
21:15:48 <andythenorth> ignore that silly idea
21:16:05 <andythenorth> stored procedures is approximately same result
21:27:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: A sizeable chunk of your compile time is template writing and then parsing?
21:28:23 <FLHerne> Shrinking the nml file size/complexity with macros should help both of those
21:28:36 <andythenorth> only if it aids parsing
21:29:29 <andythenorth> I could test it and get empirical results
21:29:53 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #71: Add: nmlc option to force regeneration of parser tables https://git.io/Jeyxo
21:31:08 <FLHerne> Hm, it only supports expressions, not statements, so probably wouldn't help much
21:31:30 <andythenorth> it will help authors who can't use a template language
21:32:12 <glx> it can support more I think
21:33:19 <glx> but what I wrote is mainly for assignement
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21:34:25 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #71: Add: nmlc option to force regeneration of parser tables https://git.io/Jeyx1
21:36:09 <andythenorth> to macro that giant expression
21:38:27 <glx> and similar expressions yes, the 3 childsprites starting at the linked line use almost the same formula
21:38:40 <glx> very good candidate for a macro
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21:42:08 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #71: Add: nmlc option to force regeneration of parser tables https://git.io/Jeyxo
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22:30:29 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] auge8472 commented on pull request #82: Discussion basis for rework of the general HTML structure and the CSS rules https://git.io/JeypV
22:30:32 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] auge8472 closed pull request #82: Discussion basis for rework of the general HTML structure and the CSS rules https://git.io/fjmcG
22:41:52 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #67: Minor changes in regression Makefile and .gitignore https://git.io/JeypH
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