IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-11-27
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00:31:36 <FLHerne> Is there any fundamental reason why a railtype table shouldn't be conditional?
00:31:59 <FLHerne> So far as I can tell, none of the NFO it ends up generating can't be skipped by an action9
00:32:27 <FLHerne> (ignoring nml internals)
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12:14:20 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: afaict, it's just NML internals
12:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: NFO would be fine with multiple tables
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14:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> who knows anymore...
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14:48:08 <Arveen> somewhere it's always lunch time
14:53:38 <peter1138> Yeah. I had half my salad today. It was big even for me.
14:53:54 <peter1138> And then I ate some crisps which I don't normally do. Pretty dumb.
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17:07:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7791: GS method to control engine availability for a specific company https://git.io/JeXE0
17:10:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/Jeiuj
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18:18:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #66: Add: allow use of switches and random switches as procedures https://git.io/JePq0
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19:27:15 <frosch123> didn't you have a list of what needs documenting for nml?
19:27:29 <frosch123> i wanted to write a test grf, but noone documented the 64cargo industry vars
19:28:00 <frosch123> apparently, it does not compile the old ones
19:28:23 <andythenorth> 16cargo props and prod. cb are documented
19:28:28 <andythenorth> I don't know about vars
19:28:56 <andythenorth> FIRS appears to work FWIW
19:29:11 <andythenorth> happy to help, or extend the examples
19:29:15 <frosch123> essentially all vars ending in _1 or _2 (i guess)
19:29:34 <andythenorth> imho nml really needs comprehensive examples as a hygiene factor
19:29:37 <andythenorth> redneck form of TDD
19:29:52 <andythenorth> write the example nml first, then have it compile
19:30:00 <andythenorth> shame the docs are so painful to work on :P
19:30:41 <andythenorth> so production_rate_1 production_rate_2 ?
19:30:52 <andythenorth> oh there's no point listing them :P
19:32:20 <frosch123> well, i can't get them to work
19:32:25 <frosch123> i guess i have to read the source
19:32:37 <frosch123> is firs now the offical docs?
19:33:49 <andythenorth> I know where the bodies are buried :P
19:33:52 <frosch123> oh, the nml inplementation is also all crap
19:34:05 <frosch123> some vars are deleted, but not all, and none of the new ones were added
19:34:07 <andythenorth> did these vars just get overlooked?
19:35:20 <andythenorth> who writes these things?
19:35:31 <frosch123> well, i'll ignore it then
19:37:14 <frosch123> find the commit, make a pr to revert it, and tell people to finish their stuff
19:39:24 <andythenorth> that happened when I accidentally became the maintainer :P
19:39:28 <nielsm> I still think the nml docs should be in the nml repository, so docs follow version, and PRs can be rejected until they contain the appropriate doc updates
19:39:31 <andythenorth> I did not like that situation
19:39:46 <andythenorth> I am +1 to that nielsm
19:39:57 <andythenorth> I have done a crapload of wading through docs recently
19:40:06 <andythenorth> I am quite happy to move wiki docs to $something
19:40:30 <andythenorth> but maybe not alone, and maybe it could be somewhat automated
19:45:35 <glx> add () (but I think I didn't try calling in this part)
19:47:47 <glx> oh was miss reading your paste :)
19:48:09 <glx> anyway procedure calls need ()
19:48:29 <frosch123> how weird, nml reverses the multiplcation, so it dodges my attempts to destroy registers
19:48:32 <glx> because I think it's clearer that way
19:49:06 <glx> (and that allows some simplifications in the code too)
19:51:31 <glx> oh it's easy to destroy registers, just use any stuff storing data in a ternary op
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19:53:09 <glx> it's implemented as !test*false_block+test*true_block
19:55:19 <frosch123> glx: i'll add the test case to your branch
19:55:20 <glx> the reference counting system takes care of registers IIRC
19:55:36 <frosch123> it uses the same registers in the caller as in the calle
19:55:48 <frosch123> so the callee destroys the temporary terms in the caller
19:56:03 <glx> oh, that's something to handle then
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19:56:17 <frosch123> oh, wait, it doesnt
19:56:28 <frosch123> it just does it differently than expected
19:57:04 <glx> like the weird construct for a simple param[XX]
19:57:09 <frosch123> it first assigns the registers in the caller, then assigned unused ones in the callee
19:57:18 <frosch123> but that makes little sense if the callee is used multiple times
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20:01:12 <nielsm> lol the diagram at the bottom
20:03:25 <andythenorth> graphviz innit :)
20:08:06 <andythenorth> doesn't really work
20:08:57 <frosch123> hmm, i know how to fetch a pr, but how do it push to one?
20:10:29 <nielsm> I can never find the documentation on how to make those fetch paths/whatever for PRs so I always just add the other user's repository as a regular remote and pull the branch from there
20:10:37 <nielsm> that also allows me to push directly
20:11:27 <frosch123> ah, i thought i need to push to the pr, but instead i push to the pr author
20:19:26 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 updated pull request #66: Add: allow use of switches and random switches as procedures https://git.io/JePq0
20:19:39 <frosch123> glx: i added the test case
20:19:56 <frosch123> the usage of \2+ is odd, i expected \2r
20:20:31 <frosch123> and the register assignment appears wasteful...
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20:32:30 <nielsm> hm interesting, transport fever 2 has "daylength mod" built in, and even allows to stop the passage of time without stopping the movement of vehicles, cargo and money
20:33:05 <frosch123> i read they added a "stop technology year"
20:33:17 <nielsm> just watching a video right now
20:33:45 <frosch123> andythenorth: eddi plays it all the time
20:34:01 <frosch123> compared to ottd it is less flexible, but more detailed
20:34:15 <frosch123> like it forces you to play along cargodest
20:34:19 <nielsm> tf2 is not out yet :) a bunch of "influencers" have received review copies
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20:34:31 <frosch123> is eddi among them?
20:34:54 <nielsm> probably not? his tf1 streams haven't been massively popular afaik
20:37:28 <andythenorth> I liked peter1138 live coding
20:37:33 <andythenorth> best twitch I've seen
20:37:40 <andythenorth> live openttd was a close second
20:38:01 <andythenorth> also hasn't pikka solved daylength now?
20:38:17 <Wolf01> <nielsm> hm interesting, transport fever 2 has "daylength mod" built in <- there is for the previous one too, you can get 2x, 4x and 8x in the workshop
20:38:39 <nielsm> yes but that's a mod not built in, and it doesn't have slowdown and stop
20:39:08 <Wolf01> BTW, already pre-purchased :>
20:40:02 <frosch123> never pre-order games
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20:41:30 <Wolf01> I know what I should expect for this one, so purchasing it now or 2 days after release (losing even a 10% discount) it doesn't change a lot
20:41:57 <andythenorth> so why isn't daylength just 'vehicles never expire'?
20:42:53 <nielsm> because it's also "new things aren't introduced"
20:43:06 <nielsm> and other kinds of "the world doesn't change"
20:43:46 <andythenorth> and this thing about reducing cargo amounts
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20:43:57 <andythenorth> and making it take longer for vehicles to travel a->b
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20:44:32 <nielsm> the daylength in tf2 seems to be solely about the introduction and deprecation of technology
20:44:42 <andythenorth> hmm, if longer travel time a->b is the goal, why not just move a and b further apart?
20:45:07 <andythenorth> maybe OpenTTD scale is the problem, not daylength
20:47:39 <Wolf01> Mmmh, no, I want to play longer with a generation, make trains faster instead
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20:49:56 <andythenorth> yeah daylength is used to fix scale
20:50:04 <andythenorth> people measure tile size by train travel time
20:50:08 <andythenorth> so that's a thing
20:51:40 <andythenorth> daylength 'gives time to play "the whole map' rather than just bits of it'
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20:53:02 <Wolf01> More money in same time... or you have more time to build a route without having to replace the train when it gets to the other end because 15 years passed
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20:53:12 <andythenorth> and bricklink lolz
20:56:57 <glx> [20:19:57] <frosch123> the usage of \2+ is odd, i expected \2r <-- for the 1C part ?
20:57:32 <glx> I followed the newgrf doc
20:58:36 <glx> "Because callback results are limited to 15 bits, to access the full 32 bit result you can read variable 1C instead (e.g. by and-ing the 7E result with 0 and then adding var. 1C)."
20:58:42 <frosch123> i see, \2r requires ttdp 2.6, while \2+ works in 2.5 :)
20:59:18 <glx> anyway nml puts \2r everywhere :)
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21:20:31 <milek7> maybe 'daylength' should just at end of the year rewind calendar to beginning of the year, X times ;)
21:21:02 <nielsm> that approach has also been attempted
21:23:24 <nielsm> how about a completely different approach, define the simulation of movement and economy in real time (player's wall clock minutes and seconds) using the current nominal tick rate of 30 ms/tick
21:23:33 <LordAro> if in doubt, it's probably been attempted :p
21:23:58 <nielsm> and then have a separate calendar that only controls technological progress, and the mapping of calendar days to simulation ticks can be adjusted
21:24:11 <nielsm> I think that's more or less what transport fever 2 does
21:24:41 <nielsm> (I saw something in that video where a vehicle model's lifetime was measured in hours and minutes)
21:27:16 <andythenorth> so tech tree date?
21:29:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7845: Add: a TextColour flag to ignore colour changes from strings https://git.io/JeXVx
21:29:54 <nielsm> also if you then speed up the tick rate to 26.66 ms/tick you get very close to 12 minutes per 365 simulation days
21:30:23 <nielsm> so you can pretend one minute = one month
21:31:47 <nielsm> and in turn, two seconds = one day
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21:38:17 <nielsm> or go with 27.03 ms per tick for actual 2 second days
21:38:30 <andythenorth> and how would that work for realism?
21:38:35 * andythenorth wishes the game didn't have a year
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21:38:48 <andythenorth> my kids play all kinds of dragon games and sim games with just days or months
21:39:01 <andythenorth> or 'x years since start'
21:39:11 <nielsm> you can then change the passage of calendar time without changing the passage of economy time
21:39:51 <nielsm> the point of changing the length of a tick is just to make the economy time easier to describe in real time terms
21:41:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeXwt
21:41:41 <nielsm> so train run costs would become "£5000 per 12 minutes", industry production would become "130 tons per minute"
21:43:23 <nielsm> need to invent a better word for a 12 minute period though, how about "dedumi" as a terrible contraction of deci-duo minute
21:45:24 <nielsm> like a quarter but for five
21:54:47 <andythenorth> so player would change...what setting? :)
21:55:15 <nielsm> that would be a fundamental change, an openttd 2.0 kind of thing :)
22:00:12 <andythenorth> and new gameplay modes
22:00:22 <andythenorth> and moving all the vehicles and industry to a newgrf abstraction :P
22:00:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7845: Add: a TextColour flag to ignore colour changes from strings https://git.io/JeXwX
22:08:07 <nielsm> the "move all the base game to newgrf" isn't truly possible since most newgrf features are based on the idea of inheritance of some base item
22:08:33 <nielsm> the original base values would still have to be there somewhere
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22:47:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeXoC
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23:22:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7817: Feature: Minimap screenshot https://git.io/JeXKO
23:23:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7788: Doc: Convert known_bugs.txt to markdown format https://git.io/JeXKs
23:30:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7800: Easier access for vehicles' group window. https://git.io/JeXKW
23:44:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeXKQ
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