IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-11-19
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00:40:14 <Samu> made it all the way to 21700, since 420 is the highest value for m
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05:51:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7840: Fix #7836: check coherency of newgrf parameter min/max https://git.io/JeKwD
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10:59:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #7840: Fix #7836: check coherency of newgrf parameter min/max https://git.io/JeK6p
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12:29:16 <peter1138> Is it lunch time yet?
12:30:52 <andythenorth> eleven-thirtysies
12:31:13 <andythenorth> I have tried drinking a lot of coffee, but it doesn't seem to be filling :P
12:33:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: you are here unusually early?
12:38:32 <frosch123> i have 6 weeks of free time left :p
12:38:46 <frosch123> probably won't do ottd though
12:50:26 <peter1138> Yeah, I've been drinking lots of coffee and it just results in lots of peeing.
12:55:57 <andythenorth> keeps it flowing eh?
12:56:30 <andythenorth> couldn't decide if the post was satire or not
12:57:43 <frosch123> haha, yes, i always made fun of people who wanted to disable all aspects of the original gameplay
13:00:34 <frosch123> i agreed with rb that the "ttd" in openttd stands for something, so if people want a different game they should write an add-on instead of trying to convince people that the original gameplay is "wrong" or "ill-designed"
13:02:18 <frosch123> also yes, i considered it funny that people actually used the grf, so some years later i made a second version which actually had settings to make it useful. though it was eventually superceded by ogfx+industries
13:02:37 <andythenorth> it actually isn't, at least not in my version of ogfx+
13:03:20 <frosch123> Manual Industries 2-r5 253093 times 66724D49 GPL v2
13:03:28 <frosch123> well, bananas stats do not mean anything :)
13:03:29 *** D-HUND is now known as debdog
13:03:34 <andythenorth> MOST POPULAR GRF
13:04:15 <andythenorth> I read some old forum threads this week
13:04:28 <andythenorth> bizarrely, things in forums have not got worse :P
13:04:29 <frosch123> the most weird people are those who call their add-ons "better xyz"
13:04:51 <frosch123> though i noticed they also exist in other games/communitities
13:05:28 <andythenorth> I discovered some classic DaleStan posts also
13:05:41 <peter1138> We called everything New for a long time.
13:05:43 <andythenorth> refreshing as they are, I'm not sure DaleStan increased community harmony :P
13:05:50 <andythenorth> Now We Call Things Not
13:06:19 * andythenorth considers NotLiveries
13:06:33 <frosch123> i think "new xyz" and "yet another xyz" are more reasonable than "better xyz"
13:07:09 <frosch123> ah, andy is back to liveries
13:07:12 <andythenorth> things should be named after animals
13:07:17 <andythenorth> MoreHeightLevelsCat
13:07:28 <andythenorth> ImprovedFancyTimetablesBear
13:07:59 <andythenorth> hmm is my space key broken?
13:08:13 <frosch123> you confused it with shift
13:11:54 <frosch123> maybe you are the author or vi?
13:13:07 <frosch123> ESC is an important key in vi, it was choosen because it was in a convenient location on the computer vi was developer for: the location where tab is today
13:13:22 <frosch123> now it's just stupid
13:13:25 <andythenorth> my esc key is virtual :(
13:13:34 <andythenorth> because emojibar
13:14:13 <frosch123> only using vi with german keyboard layout is more stupid, since the most used command "search" is on "/", which requires shift plus the key furthest away from both shift keys
13:14:24 <frosch123> so if you have small hands you cannot search with one hand in vi :p
13:14:55 <andythenorth> if I buy a laptop with AMD Radeon Pro 5300M, can I play WOT Blitz on Not The Lowest Settings?
13:15:34 <frosch123> if you buy that laptop, do you still have enough money left for playing blitz?
13:16:59 <frosch123> also would that laptop improve or worsen the ottd fps situation?
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13:24:11 <andythenorth> due to unique Apple pricing
13:24:33 <andythenorth> I can buy a 16" laptop with more CPU and GPU for the same price as my maxed-out 13" with no GPU :P
13:24:51 <andythenorth> so I'd have the same money for Blitz, but a lot more laptop :P
13:25:19 <andythenorth> but it's 2.2kg instead of 1.5kg
13:27:33 <frosch123> the last notebook i had at my old job, i think the external power supply unit was heavier than the rest
13:28:26 <andythenorth> USB-C charging is a revelation :P
13:28:27 <frosch123> maybe it was a "portable computer" instead of a notebook
13:40:41 <andythenorth> can I use alt as a modifier key in openttd?
13:41:13 <andythenorth> [for choosing vehicle livery]
13:42:02 <frosch123> alt is usually used by the operating system
13:42:18 <andythenorth> I couldn't see any prior use of it in ottd
13:42:29 <frosch123> yes, ottd always avoided it
13:42:40 <andythenorth> and ctrl is already used for the Vitally Important Depot Flip
13:46:10 <peter1138> Yeah, alt is often used by the OS.
13:46:30 <peter1138> Or at least the window manager.
13:47:32 * andythenorth wonders if we need depot flip :P
13:48:10 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Aren't those basically the same thing?
13:48:21 <andythenorth> depot flip is a bit
13:48:25 <andythenorth> I want a byte :P
13:48:27 <FLHerne> Both of them are fundamentally "toggle visual appearance"
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13:48:49 <andythenorth> I find it hard to disagree :D
13:49:12 <FLHerne> If you allowed it to cycle through more options, and kept the current behaviour for existing vehicles, no-one would care
13:49:47 <andythenorth> I proposed that already, but I was asked to stop proposing it :)
13:50:26 <FLHerne> Or "stop proposing it, and just write the damn code already?"
13:50:39 <andythenorth> by Eddi, because it's incorrect :)
13:50:56 <andythenorth> but so far there was no better proposal
13:51:03 <FLHerne> I still don't see how
13:51:42 <andythenorth> I have seen mockups for liveries
13:52:26 <andythenorth> I think I de-acronymed that :P
13:52:48 <andythenorth> You Are Welcome To Code Very Goodly
13:53:11 <peter1138> Yet Another Way To Change Vehicle Graphics
13:53:22 <andythenorth> the existing liveries feature in newgrf spec isn't great
13:53:28 <andythenorth> and had a ton of FS issues which I closed
13:53:58 <peter1138> My salad lunchbox is only half full.
13:54:04 <andythenorth> because you ate it?
13:54:10 <peter1138> No, my half-lettuce was pretty small today.
13:55:24 <peter1138> Still, I have olives & cheese in this salad.
13:55:35 <peter1138> Until about 5 minutes time.
13:55:38 <andythenorth> so...we convert depot flip to a byte not a bit
13:55:50 <andythenorth> put a backwards compatibility shim in for the old var
13:56:04 <andythenorth> and ctrl-click increments it through 16 values, rolling over
13:56:20 <andythenorth> and newgrf author uses mod(x) to handle the cycle
13:56:32 <andythenorth> then we extend it to give each value a string
13:56:35 <peter1138> And suffers similar issues to cargo subtypes.
13:56:38 <andythenorth> and put a weird floating menu in
13:56:51 <andythenorth> I'm all good with it until the weird floating menu idea
13:56:59 <peter1138> Floating circular menu
13:58:22 <peter1138> Makita's Power Tools
13:58:34 <FLHerne> Is anyone else seeing really weird bugs with joined rail/RV stations in 1.9.3
13:58:43 <andythenorth> no circular menu on the Makita?
13:59:03 <peter1138> Well, there's a circular saw...
13:59:10 <FLHerne> e.g. I removed the RV stop from a station, and built another
13:59:18 <peter1138> I wonder if that jigsaw works better than mine.
13:59:42 <peter1138> I tried cutting a straight line, with a guide, and the blade just wandered off to the side anyway.
13:59:44 <FLHerne> Which shows as parts of the same station as expected, but when I add an order there it's set to a completely different station
13:59:48 <LordAro> FLHerne: station selection broken? known issue
14:00:13 <peter1138> It was okay free hand as I could twist it away but not a very straight line...
14:00:18 <FLHerne> And if I click the rail station, it just says "Unable to add order..." or so
14:00:21 <peter1138> Probably need a circular saw :p
14:00:46 <LordAro> FLHerne: fixed in 1.10
14:00:56 <LordAro> we could've had a 1.9.4, but...
14:01:00 <peter1138> Oh, I broke something in 1.9 eh?
14:02:01 <LordAro> it only got missed from 1.9.3 because the issue was missing the "backport requested" label
14:02:19 <LordAro> it had already been fixed in master by the time 1.9.3 was released
14:03:09 <LordAro> FLHerne: probably not
14:04:00 <andythenorth> I did draw a UI for more obvious liveries (or maybe other vehicle options)
14:04:34 <peter1138> Yes but that's ridiculous.
14:04:46 <andythenorth> it's not hidden? o_O
14:05:10 <andythenorth> also I missed the bottom bevel off all the arrows :(
14:06:08 <andythenorth> FLHerne: did you find the liveries in Horse yet? o_O
14:06:16 <peter1138> Oh, it's 10 minutes since I discussed food and I haven't started eating yet. Oops.
14:06:24 <FLHerne> andythenorth: For some of Pikka's tiny wagons, the button would totally hide the vehicle...
14:06:25 <andythenorth> and it's gone 1pm
14:06:46 <andythenorth> I should make a salad
14:06:55 <andythenorth> there are piles of aging salad in my fridge
14:07:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I don't think I've used them (except the randomized freight)
14:07:13 <andythenorth> FLHerne: they're probably...too hidden
14:07:41 <FLHerne> TBF, I've only played a couple of moderate-length Horse games before deciding it's not for me
14:14:46 <andythenorth> not quicktime though, bonus
14:15:01 * andythenorth wonders if peter1138 can open .mp4 :P
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14:21:14 <Samu> can't post a savegame in the forum
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14:23:23 <LordAro> Samu: always playing at silly big map sizes does have its disadvantages :p
14:24:11 <Samu> they contribute to 75% of the save size, maybe momre
14:25:47 <peter1138> Well that got devoured.
14:26:13 <peter1138> andythenorth, fake video. It's super-fluid...
14:26:28 <andythenorth> I made it in After Effects
14:26:45 <peter1138> Hmm, my mini cinnamon roll thing was a bit stale :/
14:27:18 <peter1138> Have I got any chocolate?
14:27:34 <andythenorth> there is often some reserved in the ship
14:27:51 <peter1138> The shop is several minutes away.
14:29:29 <peter1138> Anyway, I have caramac. Or indeed a lemon Daim bar.
14:29:39 <peter1138> Or I could just not eat chocolate, it's bad for you.
14:30:14 <peter1138> I could probably eat some. I am only 12½ stone.
14:30:33 <andythenorth> magnesium in chocolate
14:31:46 <andythenorth> - we don't have any spare hotkeys
14:31:50 <andythenorth> - ctrl-click is too hidden
14:32:18 <andythenorth> - my beautifully drawn drop down menu arrows are not loved
14:32:20 <LordAro> well that's less than me
14:32:33 <LordAro> (i think, i don't own any scales)
14:32:37 <andythenorth> - the subtypes route is just weird
14:33:19 <andythenorth> I forgot to eat the salad
14:33:27 <andythenorth> I found some macaroni cheese defrosting
14:33:35 <LordAro> andythenorth: what's the current UI concern?
14:33:42 <peter1138> That seem sensible.
14:34:01 <andythenorth> waste not want not etc
14:34:14 <andythenorth> which current UI LordAro ? :)
14:34:22 <Samu> Savegame is too big, had to create a multi-file 7z archive. First extract the 2 tars separately, put the extracted files in the same folder, then use 7-zip to extract the 7z.001 and 7z.002 files in one go.
14:34:43 <LordAro> andythenorth: the one you're currently complaining about :p
14:35:12 <andythenorth> it's just not very good, I'll see if I can find a newgrf that uses it
14:35:17 <peter1138> Maybe I'll have this banana.
14:35:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7840: Fix #7836: check coherency of newgrf parameter min/max https://git.io/JeKlG
14:36:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7840: Fix #7836: check coherency of newgrf parameter min/max https://git.io/JeKM6
14:36:46 <Samu> crashed right before 5000 ships
14:37:54 <peter1138> Oh right, 1 banana, 100 carolies. Chocolate would've been less ;(
14:44:50 <andythenorth> there are a few more
14:46:47 <andythenorth> "for some reason the liveries feature is tied to cargos"
14:51:15 <andythenorth> obvs. I prefer my own odd implementation :P
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14:53:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: the reason why subcargos fail is that they fail to link "same liveries" between "different vehicles"
14:53:57 <frosch123> so autoreplace and sometimes autorenew have a hard time
14:54:09 <andythenorth> putting aside that the UI is clunky :P
14:54:16 <frosch123> just using another 1 bit or 8 bits does not solve that
14:54:21 <andythenorth> it's logical and all having nice tidy lists and long descriptions :P
14:54:38 <andythenorth> but it's indirect manipulation :P
14:55:37 <andythenorth> frosch123: LiveryTypes!
14:55:52 <andythenorth> we can have a wiki page for them!
14:56:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: reddit has also solved 'why is daylength hard', in just 2 posts
15:01:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: i was unaware of the pikka solution
15:02:12 <frosch123> also "dieselpunk" :p
15:03:08 <andythenorth> if I hadn't invented this stupid rosters concept in Iron Horse
15:03:15 <andythenorth> I could do something like Pikka or NUTS
15:04:20 <andythenorth> frosch123 do liveries *need* to persist across autoreplace?
15:05:29 <frosch123> it's essential for heqs
15:05:40 <frosch123> replace medium length tram with medium length tram
15:06:02 <frosch123> but there are other examples, i just can't remember them :)
15:06:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7840: Fix #7836: check coherency of newgrf parameter min/max https://git.io/JeKDD
15:06:20 <andythenorth> which idiot made that
15:11:31 <frosch123> i guess the other example is something like world-airliners-set
15:11:47 <frosch123> where you pick the livery from dozen of rl companies
15:12:03 <frosch123> and you certainly do not want to reset the selection when changing vehicles
15:13:59 <supermop_work_> andythenorth: daylength appropriate vehicle timeline not your problem to solve
15:14:23 <andythenorth> maybe not, but daylength is becoming a problem
15:14:49 <supermop_work_> as has been said, daylength means at least two contradicting things
15:14:54 <andythenorth> problem / thing /s
15:15:04 <andythenorth> let's not think I'm dramaing on the internet
15:15:57 <supermop_work_> however it manifests, it will have all sets to deal with anyway, not just yours
15:16:55 <supermop_work_> i just don't see a meaningful way for individual sets to help it in some 'designed' way
15:18:57 <andythenorth> hoping it goes away has failed :)
15:19:11 <andythenorth> maybe someone else will fork FIRS and keep it off my plate
15:44:55 <supermop_work_> man what if MUs just had one cab
15:45:20 <supermop_work_> and only get 2 if it's all alone
16:03:35 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_work_: that sounds very wrong to me
16:04:40 <andythenorth> supermop_work_: o_O
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16:51:50 <andythenorth> so anyway the ctrl-click liveries method fails with articulated vehicles :P
16:51:59 <andythenorth> I could make a video to prove it, but you can imagine :P
17:04:08 <andythenorth> so...depot flip articulated consists then?
17:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but not for the reasons you want it :p
17:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i spend 3 weeks in twitch chats, and want to end all sentences with "Kappa"...
17:14:09 <andythenorth> I think :P is kappa
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17:15:31 <andythenorth> if we fix articulated vehicle flip
17:15:47 <andythenorth> I can announce a new 'livery spec' and publish the world's most convoluted nml templates
17:15:54 <andythenorth> 'now featuring 2 liveries'
17:19:17 <frosch123> what happened to the tree-based purchase list?
17:20:24 <andythenorth> I ruined it somehow
17:25:27 <andythenorth> sort order in buy menu :(
17:26:01 <andythenorth> sorting nested / hidden items is in top 10 worst UI hassles
17:26:41 <frosch123> i think that is solveable, sort in every group, sort the group by the top-score of its members
17:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause> sort the vehicles individually, "head" of the group is whatever vehicle comes first
17:28:38 <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause's seems better defined
17:29:01 <nielsm> since it also handles reverse sorting
17:30:10 <andythenorth> you think it won't get bug reports?
17:30:26 <andythenorth> I'm 99% certain james103 will report it
17:31:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that doesn't sound like the right metric
17:32:21 <andythenorth> oops admin fail, I should be somewhere else
17:40:10 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm... "double free in /bin/bash" wtf?
17:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> something's seriously falling apart
17:41:18 <frosch123> memtest86 is your friend
17:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i should probably do that
17:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> my /home had some filesystem corruption recently...
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19:08:20 <Eddi|zuHause> so, memtest showed nothing obvious, i'm gonna assume it's my SSD's fault, which also contained some swap
19:11:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i moved everything off of /home that i could, but something seems to be missing
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19:17:45 <andythenorth> if we did have variants, could we modify var 41?
19:17:49 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a shell command for "find broken links"?
19:17:55 <andythenorth> so that it checks list of IDs
19:18:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, that would be a new var
19:18:55 <andythenorth> could we clone var 41, adding a new var that checks a list of IDs?
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19:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how would you pass it a list of IDs?
19:20:02 <andythenorth> FLHerne fixing my mess :)
19:20:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: stuff registers
19:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't see that working
19:23:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #60: Avoid duplicating rail/road/tramtype table code https://git.io/JeKF3
19:24:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a parameter cannot contain a list. and nobody uses the textstack properly
19:25:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so, "find -L -type l" should do what i want?
19:26:46 <andythenorth> isn't it just 'check IDs in registers 0-15' or something?
19:27:05 <andythenorth> I'm sure there's an existing example somewhere, but I can't find it :P
19:27:09 <andythenorth> frosch123 might know
19:29:46 <frosch123> i had a solution for "consist search", but apparently i wrote no text
19:29:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #60: Avoid duplicating rail/road/tramtype table code https://git.io/JeKFk
19:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the only thing that might be practical would be to treat IDs of the same group as equivalent
19:30:17 <frosch123> anyway, the idea was similar to the procedure call va2: call this va2 for every vehicle in the consist
19:30:36 <andythenorth> maybe it was industry 16-cargos where we tried to handle lists
19:30:40 <frosch123> so you can iterate over the consist, check stuff, and collect in registers
19:31:03 <frosch123> like std::transform_reduce
19:32:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the 'same group' solution occurred to me, it just seems less generally useful
19:32:26 <frosch123> it started with that french guy (snail?) asking for vars as ridiculous as those george industry vars
19:32:26 <andythenorth> I already had the multiple IDs case IRL :P
19:32:43 <frosch123> which got extended with more arcane stuff, and in the end noone unsed them
19:32:57 <andythenorth> did I not ask for arcane vars too? :P
19:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that'll be a pain to teach nml?
19:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried like twice to teach it procedure call, failed the same number of times
19:39:58 <andythenorth> different sprites depending on position
19:40:24 <andythenorth> it's not essential to preserve that across variants, but it would avoid some weird results :P
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19:45:45 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:51:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #60: Avoid duplicating rail/road/tramtype table code https://git.io/JeKFk
19:55:29 <andythenorth> how about checking a list of ideas with a break/continue loop? :P
19:55:39 <andythenorth> and incremementing a counter along the way
19:55:47 <andythenorth> IDs not ideas, wtf am I typing :P
19:58:35 <andythenorth> doesn't the articulated vehicle CB do something similar?
19:58:41 <andythenorth> oh var, not cb though :|
19:58:44 <andythenorth> silly andythenorth
20:17:09 <Eddi|zuHause> a 6x-var, that calls a callback for each vehicle, passing the parameter as extra_callback_info1 and collating the return values in some way?
20:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> or, the parameter as info1, and the current result as info2
20:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause> performance of that will be a nightmare?
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20:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> grmpf... something prevents plasmashell from running... but i can't find out what
20:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but i really don't want to clean out /home and start over...
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20:35:58 <frosch123> move your home first, so you can check whether a clean home would even help
20:36:04 <frosch123> or whether the issue is somewhere else
20:36:39 <Wolf01> <frosch123> move your home first, so you can check whether a clean home would even help <- I wish I could do that too... for real
20:37:42 <Wolf01> I have a camper, but crap still moves with it
20:37:52 <andythenorth> the good bit is around 16mins
20:40:24 <frosch123> ah, silly me... ofc wolf should try a house built with lego
20:40:32 <andythenorth> Wolf01: new technic crane?
20:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and amarok has lost all file statistics...
20:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> ... it tends to do that whenever the drive changes
20:50:04 <andythenorth> Wolf01: small is advantage imho
20:50:17 * andythenorth has been deleting lego recently
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21:06:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #60: Avoid duplicating rail/road/tramtype table code https://git.io/JeKND
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22:13:37 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Love that video
22:13:40 <FLHerne> "Okay. Riight. Yeah, not sure the science of this, but this is all going on fire quite rapidly."
22:22:55 <FLHerne> "Oh, this isn't necessarily quite good..."
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23:02:19 <peter1138> I had... vegetables.
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23:13:36 <andythenorth> so variants then :P
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23:36:03 <FLHerne> Can someone explain what the
23:36:59 <FLHerne> format in rail/roadtype tables actually does?
23:39:13 <frosch123> ID_1 is an identifier in the nml source, it does not affect the resulting grf
23:39:27 <frosch123> ID_2, 3... are tracktype labels
23:39:45 <frosch123> ID_1 is assigned to the first one in the list, that exists at runtime
23:40:55 <frosch123> the list is meant to start with specialised track types and gradually list more general types which are available in multple track grfs
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23:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: for example, if you're trying to write a set with 3rd rail powered vehicles, you could do 'thirdrail: ["3DRL", ELRL]'
23:54:26 <Eddi|zuHause> then your third rail vehicles will be converted to electric, if no trackset is loaded that provides the "3DRL" type
23:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> or you could do 'thirdrail: ["3DRL"]'
23:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> then the vehicles will get disabled, if the railtype does not exist
23:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the only point of that would be to avoid to use the cumbersome "3DRL" label throughout your code, as it always has to be given as a string, not an identifier
23:56:42 <Eddi|zuHause> (i actually don't remember the exact label they used, only that it started with a "3")
23:57:56 <FLHerne> Now I just can't see how that's actually implemented in nml
23:58:30 <FLHerne> RailtypeListProp.write() [for the vehicle properties] just writes identifiers
23:58:46 <FLHerne> I guess it must be lowered somewhere
23:59:06 <FLHerne> But I can't find any reference to the railtype table from outside that
23:59:26 <FLHerne> s/that/the code responsible for writing the table itself/
continue to next day ⏵
