IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-09-04
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00:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and already given out contracts and stuff
00:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and then lost a court case declaring the law incompatible with european guidelines
00:00:20 <glx> isn't that illegal to charge only foreign ?
00:00:51 <Eddi|zuHause> ... so now they have to honour the contracts, but aren't allowed to charge anybody
00:01:46 <glx> they're supposed to think before deciding to do things
00:02:03 <Eddi|zuHause> ... uhm yeah. but when's that going to happen? :p
00:02:32 <glx> and then they're surprised people don't vote
00:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: but at the same time they're saying: "these youths should go back to school, and let the professionals deal with the issues"
00:27:00 <milek7> i guess you at least don't have highways leased to private companies on 30 years secret contracts, high tolls, and with roadworks on third of whole distance? ;P
00:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: there was a section of highway that they leased like that, and then the economy crashed and there were massively fewer trucks around to pay for it
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12:35:09 <planetmaker> both owen and me either don't find a way or are lacking rights
12:35:41 <LordAro> planetmaker: you're an owner, so you should be able to
12:35:52 <planetmaker> that's what I thought... but where?
12:36:20 <planetmaker> I spend more than half an hour searching all settings and googling github help without avail
12:36:33 <planetmaker> yes, that's what google says. And that doesn't exist
12:37:14 <LordAro> nothing? (on a different repo) i see Repo name, social preview, then the Features section
12:37:18 <LordAro> the checkbox is just below that
12:39:03 <planetmaker> honestly... usability is poor. Doesn't look like you can scroll
12:39:32 <planetmaker> why would I scroll when the lower 2/3 are blank... oh well. Thanks a lot
12:39:46 <LordAro> it's a weirdly large text box :)
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14:42:57 <Samu> I don't understand how SCP works during load
14:44:56 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 18 weeks, 4 days, 14 hours, 57 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <Zuu> Good night andythenorth
14:45:23 <LordAro> Samu: the list of names you can see on the right hand side indicates who is "around"
14:45:36 <LordAro> or at the very least, who is around even vaguely enough to possibly respond
14:47:05 <Samu> SCP has a drawback, it tries to answer every sign
14:47:25 <Samu> there are dead signs, and signs of ais that just spam
14:54:41 <Samu> and it failed to detect that it was a comany value gs game
14:54:44 <andythenorth> how are we doing train liveries again? o_O
14:57:16 <Samu> or there are so many signs it doesn't answer all
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15:22:04 <supermop_work> andythenorth: liveries?
15:22:55 <andythenorth> if I want to offer 3 different colour schemes for a wagon
15:23:00 <andythenorth> how's that done?
15:23:13 * andythenorth back to reading ISO 27001 docs
15:24:34 <supermop_work> GNER liveried GG-1?
15:27:02 <supermop_work> santa fe A4 pacific
15:28:51 <andythenorth> Ijw9MjQwIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvOTU2YWY1MTktNThiNi00MzRhLWE1MWEtY2U1YmRiNDk2YjhiXC9kNXU5aTFrLWZiYTgzZDYwLWIyMTEtNDI0MS04NTUwLTNmZjYwMzdiMThmOC5wbmciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9MTAyNCJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.4vmk2O2Yd7e_2R527WJnFcMBasGOGFapg5GoruSlkik
15:28:59 <Flygon> RIP IRC clients everywhere
15:29:14 <supermop_work> am i supposed to click that?
15:29:49 <andythenorth> I did look for a short version :P
15:30:03 <andythenorth> are there enough characters there to create viable malware? :P
15:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't even work as a clickable link, because it's more than one line
15:35:42 <supermop_work> doesn't work even if both parts pasted into browser
15:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> in a base64 number, each character encodes 6 bits of data
15:36:20 * andythenorth is clearly more advanced
15:38:04 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I did look for a short version :P <-- what happened to tinyurl?
15:48:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: url-shortener services were invented exactly for situations like this, you have a massive url that you want to paste into a thing where you have limited space
15:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> (they got particularly popular around the same time that twitter got big)
15:49:52 <andythenorth> didn't we have to all stop using them about 3 years ago?
15:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, which is why i asked "what happened"?
15:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose they all got swallowed by $bigcorporationthatwantsyourdata
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15:57:41 <andythenorth> they were used for phishing
15:57:46 <andythenorth> and crypto miners
15:57:54 <andythenorth> so we got taught to teach people not to use them :P
15:59:10 <LordAro> only in the same way you shouldn't click on untrusted links anyway
15:59:23 <LordAro> there's an extra level of mistrust as you can't see where it's redirecting to
15:59:45 <LordAro> if you trust the source of the link, they're no different to any other link
16:00:24 * peter1139 switches from Wayland to Xorg...
16:00:32 <peter1139> Damn this seems pretty unstable :/
16:12:06 <peter1139> Oops. I mean Wayland :-)
16:12:33 <peter1139> Gnome Shell randomly not responding.
16:12:46 <peter1139> On one PC it managed to have inverted caps-lock state, which made entering passwords interesting :p
16:13:00 <peter1139> And Alt+F2 r does not work in Wayland mode.
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17:56:07 <andythenorth> so...flipping articulated vehicles? :D
17:56:18 * andythenorth wonders about trying to patch that :P
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18:19:26 * andythenorth finds a new thing
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19:28:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think you'll get anywhere with that
19:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> too many cans of worms on the way
19:29:11 <andythenorth> how hard can it be?
19:29:16 <andythenorth> it's a new trigger on cb36
19:30:00 <andythenorth> and extend the "can't flip articulated" check to be conditional on the flip flag
19:30:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it requires far-reaching design decisions, like "do you also reverse the order of articulated parts", or "do you iterate backwards through the existing parts"
19:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and what about dual-headed parts?
19:30:47 <andythenorth> why is OpenTTD concerned about what the newgrf does?
19:31:23 <Eddi|zuHause> this isn't really about what the newgrf does, these are very core game questions
19:31:25 <andythenorth> flipping articulated vehicles is just varaction 2
19:31:45 <andythenorth> length is changed (if needed) on cb36
19:32:08 <andythenorth> sprites are just a check of 'is flipped' in action 3 chain, checking parent vehicle
19:32:30 <andythenorth> I am making a very specific proposal about a possible implementation :P
19:32:47 <andythenorth> I am aware of deficiencies
19:33:25 <andythenorth> already, to use flipped non-articulated vehicles, the newgrf has to handle reversing the sprites
19:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> concerning "what does the newgrf do" you have to ask two questions: "what would that allow to do" and "would a different approach allow to do that in an easier way"
19:35:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and i think, reversing the order of the articulated parts would make a few things easier
19:35:39 <Eddi|zuHause> say, you have a steam engine with added tender
19:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause> if you flip it, you don't want to flip the engine and tender individually, you also want to swap their order
19:36:33 <andythenorth> it's not that I disagree
19:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause> if openttd doesn't handle this order change, then you have more complicated newgrf code, because both the engine and the tender must have access to each others graphics
19:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause> and callback chains
19:37:21 <andythenorth> a better way would be nice, but I refer back to "too many cans of worms on the way"
19:37:27 <andythenorth> and it's trivial in newgrf
19:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> ... but i would oppose such a (seemingly) "easier" implementation, because saving stuff in the wrong place causes more problems later
19:38:37 <Eddi|zuHause> do it properly, or don't do it at all.
19:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> everything else will collapse in a maintenance nightmare
19:39:28 <andythenorth> I am not expecting to persuade you :P
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19:40:21 <andythenorth> flip already requires explicit newgrf handling though, so extending it to articulated is a minor thing imho :)
19:41:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but it'll interfere with so many other things. say, a widely requested "drive backwards" feature
19:41:34 <andythenorth> is it more or less work than a brexit deal?
19:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> or... doing it "properly" might facilitate that
19:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say less, but there's way fewer people working on it :p
19:42:36 <andythenorth> drive backwards is weird :P
19:42:51 <andythenorth> also solved in newgrf already :D
19:42:59 * andythenorth must go home, the rain has stopped
19:44:03 <frosch123> buster upgrade was surprisingly rough :)
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19:45:49 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:46:20 <Eddi|zuHause> translator commits. that's "new" :p
19:46:51 <frosch123> yay, i think they have not been announced for 1.5 years :)
19:47:19 <frosch123> and the "-" scared me :p
19:47:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #7720: Add: [DorpsGek] also announce comments on commits https://git.io/fjhdC
19:47:54 <TrueBrain> I rewrote DorpsGek last weekend, so this was a small step to fix ;)
19:48:31 <TrueBrain> and the last commit also "unhides" the comments that happened today
19:48:41 <TrueBrain> that was new .. comments on commits :)
19:49:31 <frosch123> aren't they supposed to be hidden?
19:49:46 <TrueBrain> hidden comments? :D
19:49:54 <TrueBrain> if they are hidden, do they really exist?
19:50:08 <TrueBrain> I mean stuff like this: "<DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] pelya left a comment on commit: Remove: libtimidity support (NOT timidity support) https://git.io/fjhds" :)
19:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> schrödinger's commits?
19:50:22 <frosch123> i thought comments on commits were piped to /dev/null
19:50:43 <TrueBrain> don't accept my PR, and that is the case :D
19:51:37 <frosch123> well, there is no method to find those "conversations", is there?
19:52:06 <TrueBrain> I have no clue how nielsm found out
19:52:11 <TrueBrain> I got an email because I wrote the commit
19:52:58 <nielsm> the comment popped up in my notifications inbox
19:53:08 <nielsm> I'm just subscribed to all comments on everything
19:53:24 <TrueBrain> well, I was thinking, if DorpsGek_III tells about it, more chance people pick it up ;)
19:54:35 <TrueBrain> I like how easy it now is to wire these things through DorpsGek_III :D
19:54:40 <TrueBrain> it can even announce PR build failures :P
19:56:52 <glx> maybe not PR but nightlies failure would be nice
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19:57:36 <frosch123> can those get piped to @kick ?
19:58:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you want to auto-kick people whose PR doesn't build?
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20:06:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: actually, what is "drive backwards"? :)
20:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: switch driving direction of the train at end of line, without flipping the consist around
20:07:57 <andythenorth> ok that was my understanding too
20:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which is "complicated", because the front engine doubles up for collecting info for the whole consist (mass, speed, etc.)
20:08:10 <andythenorth> that's the one that can be done with convoluted newgrf tricks
20:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it can, but at huge cost
20:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which triggers the "can this be done easier" question
20:08:44 <andythenorth> invisible lead engine? :P
20:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if i was to do a deep redesign, i would separate "train" and "rail vehicle" data structures
20:09:43 <andythenorth> and if you were to work with what already exists? o_O
20:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then, rail vehicle's "PARENT" would point to the train structure, not to the front engine
20:10:30 <andythenorth> going back to my original question....
20:10:38 * andythenorth wonders what the benefits of flipping articulated consists is
20:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you zoom out a bit, flipping articulated consist and driving backwards involve much of the same necessary code/design changes
20:12:48 <andythenorth> the appeal of driving backwards is aesthetics?
20:13:04 <andythenorth> and the appeal of flipping articulated consists is...?
20:14:18 <andythenorth> how did you find that so quickly :P
20:15:11 <andythenorth> I use very few articulated vehicles in Iron Horse
20:15:27 <andythenorth> because they don't support liveries
20:17:50 * andythenorth considers splitting steam engine tenders to be separate vehicles? :D
20:18:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's exactly what articulated flipping should do
20:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and implementing it properly in the core game would require very few newgrf fuss
20:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, none, except for the already necessary offset adjustments
20:21:13 * andythenorth wonders if it's just reversing a list :P
20:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that is the essence of it, but it might cause followup problems
20:22:05 <andythenorth> ooh that mac diagnosis is good
20:22:10 <andythenorth> wonder what happens if I turn p3 off
20:26:05 <andythenorth> ooh I should screen-record this :D
20:29:27 <andythenorth> with full animation on, with sRGB I get ~35fps
20:29:50 <andythenorth> with p3 I get ~10fps
20:32:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS https://git.io/fjii3
20:41:45 <nielsm> it still sounds like some kind of GPU accelerated blitting is the best way forward for that issue
20:42:17 <andythenorth> I should try the fix
20:42:28 <andythenorth> then we have evidence
20:43:03 <andythenorth> I don't think it's related to the mysterious perfomance issues I showed with news messages
20:43:08 <andythenorth> nor the inconsistent ffwd
20:43:32 <andythenorth> first I should have lunch
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22:07:43 * andythenorth looks for quartz driver
22:12:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7721: Fix: change Quartz driver colorSpace handling to address certain macO… https://git.io/fjhNm
22:23:53 <nielsm> so with that, time to make a 1.9.2a release just for mac? that reports its network version as 1.9.2 but fixes the video driver and utf8 handling bugs?
22:26:01 * andythenorth waiting for an Instruments run to complete
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22:47:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7709: Fix #7692: Added industry tile to GetOrderCmdFromTile() https://git.io/fjpmV
22:48:31 <andythenorth> that's a nice improvement
22:49:08 <nielsm> I guess that's sufficient to make a 1.9.3 ?
22:52:19 <andythenorth> looks pretty solid
23:04:10 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7721: Fix: change Quartz driver colorSpace handling to address certain macO… https://git.io/fjhAJ
23:07:35 <andythenorth> michi_cc: one space for each square bracket?
23:08:36 <michi_cc> Yeah, to distinguish it from normal array []s. Probably different to what everybody else does, but eh...
23:09:35 <andythenorth> is there a rule about when to trigger wrap?
23:09:42 * andythenorth is on unfamiliar ground :P
23:10:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7721: Fix: change Quartz driver colorSpace handling to address certain macO… https://git.io/fjhNm
23:10:39 <michi_cc> Oh, and JFTR, could you try the speed which just the second line changed (i.e. not the CGColorSpaceCreateWithName change)?
23:12:39 <michi_cc> And the setColorSpace line should be moved after the if I guess (calling a selector on a nil value is allowed, but pointless).
23:13:05 <andythenorth> the speed improvement is the same with *only* the second line changed
23:13:35 <michi_cc> Do the colours look any different?
23:14:25 <andythenorth> oof that's very hard to judge
23:15:54 <andythenorth> yes they're different
23:16:48 <michi_cc> Other than that, I can't judge if changing the color space we use is good or bad. The setColorSpace should probably have always been there.
23:17:15 <andythenorth> unclear which is 'correct'
23:17:20 <andythenorth> colour is very subjective
23:17:34 * andythenorth remembers the long debate about the purple map I couldn't see
23:18:03 <andythenorth> to me, the version in 7644 looks 'wrong', it's yellow and washed out
23:18:12 <andythenorth> but I've been seeing a non-colour-spaced version for 10 years
23:20:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7721: Fix: change Quartz driver colorSpace handling to address certain macO… https://git.io/fjhA8
23:23:12 <michi_cc> Well, DOS had no defined colour space, so the original graphics are not sRGB, but neither P3 or anything else. I'm probably 51%/49% on dropping the colour space change from the PR.
23:24:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS https://git.io/fjii3
23:26:44 <andythenorth> I'm favouring not changing the colour space :P
23:26:51 * andythenorth voice of conservatism
23:30:39 <milek7> i think other platforms assume sRGB?
23:50:19 <milek7> on linux it renders like on 'master' image
continue to next day ⏵
