IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-09-01
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00:21:19 <TrueBrain> all say hi to DorpsGek_III :)
00:22:31 <TrueBrain> (replying old messages to test if it works :P)
00:22:47 <glx> oh notifications are back
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00:36:42 <TrueBrain> ALMOST correct .. silly ..
00:37:31 <TrueBrain> well, no, it is fully correct .. just not useful
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00:39:36 <TrueBrain> hmmm .. I did add another line ..
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00:42:47 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
00:46:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #7713: Fix: [DorpsGek] don't report all pushes, but just those done by DorpsGek https://git.io/fjpmk
00:49:19 <TrueBrain> okay ... GitHub tells me LordAro left a comment, but I cannot find where :D
00:50:50 <TrueBrain> right, that DorpsGek commit is needed, because now it will tell that a PR is merged, and tell you there was a push to master ... that will be spammy :D With my change that should be fixed
00:51:04 <TrueBrain> otherwise this should now all be up and running again .. on the new infrastructure :D
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01:08:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc requested changes for pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpmC
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01:28:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JMcKiern updated pull request #7709: Fix #7692: Added industry tile to GetOrderCmdFromTile() https://git.io/fjpmV
01:28:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JMcKiern dismissed a review for pull request #7709: Fix #7692: Added industry tile to GetOrderCmdFromTile() https://git.io/fjpmw
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08:40:48 <AquaFiX> in regards to Running soap with supybot i have getting issues regarding Error: No module named enums and Error: cannot import name IntFlag, I have installed libottdadmin2, and OFS correctlys, libottdadmin2 shows in pip freeze i am not sure the issue. Python -V Python 2.7.13
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08:50:19 <nielsm> that's probably because the enum module was introduced in python 3.4
08:50:48 <nielsm> IntFlag is even from python 3.6
08:53:39 <AquaFiX> so force to 3.6.4 and should resolve issues.
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10:30:00 <andythenorth_> So how about a new industry cb, “town wants to grow”
10:30:23 <andythenorth_> Results: allow | disallow | neutral
10:31:11 <nielsm> maybe town growth effect -16 to +16
10:31:20 * andythenorth_ continues quest to improve town cargos like building materials, vehicles etc
10:32:29 * andythenorth_ going on a plane ride now, but the idea is interesting
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13:37:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZE
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13:46:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso updated pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZw
13:50:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZK
13:50:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZi
14:01:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZ9
14:01:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZH
14:01:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZw
14:01:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc closed issue #7704: Crash on MacOS when server has invalid UTF8 name string https://git.io/fjpZQ
14:02:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZ7
14:05:50 <nielsm> so, 1.9.3 or begin preparing 1.10 ?
14:06:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZb
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14:49:32 <AquaFiX> Ok if anyone has any experience with SOAP for supybot/Limnoria
14:49:38 <AquaFiX> i am interested to talk to you
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14:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to "we might go for a more frequent release schedule"?
14:59:45 <frosch123> maybe there is a dependency on cets
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15:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that would have been a risky tactical decision
15:39:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7651: Too many statues/fountains are built in town centers. https://git.io/fjXfH
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15:46:16 <nielsm> I'm going through the issues and adding any I think ought to be fixed before 1.10 to the milestone
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15:55:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7624: Changing rolling stock reverts on next visit to depot https://git.io/fj2MW
15:59:47 <Samu> autorenew defaulted to on?
15:59:58 <Samu> that will break my AI at least
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16:00:38 <nielsm> who said autorenew should default to on?
16:01:55 <glx> and AI can change the setting anyway
16:02:57 <Samu> autorenew / autoreplace should be able to maintain vehicle IDs
16:03:18 <glx> Samu: AICompany::SetAutoRenewStatus(false); in your AI init should be enough
16:03:37 <glx> especially if you explicitely don't want it
16:03:58 <glx> never trust default settings of the user ;)
16:06:11 <glx> and you can also check GetAutoRenewStatus() before
16:07:20 <glx> anyway autorenew/autoreplace can't maintain vehicle IDs
16:07:39 <glx> as a new vehicle always get a new ID
16:13:55 <Samu> unable to keep track of vehicleIDs is the biggest threat during vehicle management
16:16:13 <glx> maybe a new AIEvent can be added
16:20:35 <nielsm> the scourge of having MS symbol servers enabled in visual studio...
16:20:48 <nielsm> taking forever to start a debugging session after windows update
16:21:25 <nielsm> it's just that updates tend to touch way too many files in minor ways
16:21:39 <nielsm> meaning 90% of the dlls need to have their symbols re-downloaded
16:21:57 <glx> hmm yeah my next debug session will be a pain, I just upgraded to 1903 from 1803
16:22:13 <Samu> create new vehicle, move statistics or infos from old vehicle to new vehicle, then delete old vehicle, create another new vehicle, move statistics from the new vehicle to the another new vehicle
16:22:23 <Samu> will it get the same id?
16:22:39 <glx> a new vehicle is new, so new ID
16:22:52 <nielsm> IDs get reused don't they?
16:23:05 <nielsm> it's not like slots in the vehicle array are left empty forever
16:23:10 <nielsm> (that would be a memory leak)
16:23:11 <glx> but as I said, a new AIEvent can help
16:23:25 <nielsm> the new vehicle _might_ get the ID of the deleted one
16:23:33 <nielsm> but another company might have built a vehicle in the meantime
16:23:43 <nielsm> or there might be a different ID free earlier in the list
16:25:37 <frosch123> the new vehicle never gets the same id
16:25:47 <frosch123> the new vehicle is created before the old one is deleted
16:26:23 <nielsm> the question is if you then create another new vehicle after deleting the replaced one, will the second new vehicle get the ID of the replaced one
16:26:32 <nielsm> and the answer is "maybe, in some cases"
16:26:55 <frosch123> ok, i should have guessed that the question is even more arcane :)
16:28:59 <Samu> I still remember my AI sending aircraft to bus stations
16:30:09 <Samu> or that randomly lost aircraft with no orders for no reason whatsoever
16:32:50 <glx> maybe always use 3 lines per entry
16:33:25 <glx> name\ncompany\nqualification
16:34:38 <nielsm> ugh okay yeah I tried sprinkling ScaleGUITrad all over the code and the results just don't get good
16:34:58 <nielsm> I'll probably have to rework the layout to depend on actual font sizes and such
16:35:05 <nielsm> instead of magical numbers
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16:37:59 <nielsm> the 5 overlapping the border $ is a shame
16:40:41 <nielsm> is there a way to get the background image drawn in a custom scale not dependent on the user GUI scale...
16:41:15 <nielsm> would be nice if it could scale it to fit screen (nearest integer scale factor smaller than actual resolution)
16:41:23 <nielsm> and then dynamically position the text based on font size
16:42:05 <nielsm> hm okay DrawSprite and GetSpriteSize do take a zoom parameter
16:42:11 <nielsm> so could do some magic with that
16:42:24 <frosch123> the scaling is not done while drawing
16:42:41 <frosch123> all images are prescaled when loading the sprites and then stored scaled
16:43:48 <frosch123> anyway, whenever the highscore or the win screen is broken, i wonder whether to delete them :p
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17:08:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet updated pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename https://git.io/fjddy
17:34:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename https://git.io/fjpCE
17:38:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename https://git.io/fjpCo
17:50:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename https://git.io/fjpCh
18:47:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7715: Fix b870596: forgotten squirrel_export run https://git.io/fjpWP
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19:10:47 <andythenorth> holidays are nice, but so is proper internet
19:10:52 <andythenorth> and a proper irc cliet
19:14:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7716: Add: [Script] ScriptEventVehicleAutoReplaced. https://git.io/fjplU
19:18:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7716: Add: [Script] ScriptEventVehicleAutoReplaced. https://git.io/fjplq
19:19:40 <nielsm> Samu what else could it be? It's an event that indicates that a vehicle has been automatically replaced with a new one, and gives you the old and new ID
19:20:03 <nielsm> it's exactly what's necessary to keep track of vehicles internally by a script
19:20:40 <Samu> the problem is difficult to describe
19:20:52 <nielsm> then you are not understanding it
19:21:29 <Samu> i am iterating vehicleids in a for loop, doing the usual management stuff, iterating over a list of vehicles
19:22:05 <Samu> suddenly, one of the vehicles in that list is autorenewed, while im still executing the for loop
19:22:41 <Samu> when the for loop iterates the old vehicle id, it may already belong to another vehicle
19:23:01 <Samu> while the list was supposedly only road vehicles
19:23:07 <nielsm> oh so the entire structure of your code is bad
19:23:30 <nielsm> it sticks inside long operations without handling events
19:24:04 <Wormnest_> iirc it´s not guaranteed that you always receive all events, which means you can´t count on the event to update your vehicle ids
19:24:12 <nielsm> what Windows would call "application is not responding" (and fade out the entire application window)
19:24:37 <nielsm> seriously, events can be lost? is there a length limit on the queue?
19:24:53 <nielsm> (if then, the answer is still "process events more often")
19:25:12 <Wormnest_> I might remember it wrong, haven´t looked into it in a long time
19:25:49 <Samu> i'd propose a vehicle list function
19:26:20 <Samu> something that could re-route to the correct vehicle
19:26:48 <glx> that's up to the AI writer
19:26:50 <Samu> as long as that list exists
19:27:59 <Samu> something that auto corrects veh ids in vehicle lists
19:28:14 <Samu> without me constantly checking for events
19:29:13 <glx> and how the game is supposed to know about existing lists in the AI VM ?
19:29:44 <Samu> i thought there could be another specific for vehicles
19:31:07 <glx> lists created by AIs are not readable by the game engine
19:32:35 <Samu> I'm unsure about the event, I'd have to check for that event thoroughly
19:32:51 <Samu> even perhaps inside for loops
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19:33:04 <Samu> i don't think that's too useful
19:33:31 <Samu> autorenew can happen in a matter of 1 frame
19:33:49 <glx> there's an event for that too
19:34:24 <nielsm> well a crashed vehicle stays around for a while
19:34:40 <nielsm> so it's less likely to cause a problem
19:35:18 <glx> but it can if the list loop is time consuming
19:35:45 <nielsm> coming back to the core problem: not handling events
19:36:32 <Samu> handling 500 road vehicles for my AI takes about 3 days
19:36:48 <nielsm> instead of having a simple loop over all vehicles, check a few vehicles at a time, then go back to handle events, then check some more vehicles (but without keeping state from the previous check round)
19:37:09 <nielsm> that's more than 200 ticks, lots of things can happen in 200 ticks
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19:45:45 <Samu> so... the better solution is ... fix autorenew/autoreplace to make it keep the same veh id
19:46:22 <glx> because the new vehicle is created before the old one is removed
19:46:54 <Samu> is the new vehicle really needed to be created?
19:47:14 <Samu> can't just change data of the vehicle instead?
19:48:54 <nielsm> that would be a big source of potential bugs
19:49:25 <nielsm> properties forgotten or mishandled in subtle ways
19:49:27 <glx> while creation and deletion use existing commands
19:50:00 <glx> with cargo transfert between old and new
19:52:54 <glx> and using existing commands takes care of all checks
19:53:40 <glx> without duplicating them (another source of potential bugs)
19:55:04 <glx> and if you don't want to rely on events, you still have the option to disable autorenew for the company
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20:13:58 <andythenorth> industry town growth then? o_O
20:14:40 <nielsm> sure but it needs some specifications :D
20:15:01 <nielsm> like what happens if one industry wants town to grow and another wants it to stagnate?
20:15:38 <nielsm> are town growth effects queried via a cb? how often?
20:16:08 <nielsm> should town window show something about the cumulative effect of industries on its growth?
20:16:23 <andythenorth> AIUI there's some 'town wants to grow' game event currently
20:16:59 <nielsm> can industries cause towns to grow faster than normal, or just discourage or prevent growth?
20:17:47 * andythenorth had better read how towns grow in src :)
20:18:05 <andythenorth> my preferred solution is to inject something into what we've got
20:18:50 <andythenorth> although...sometimes people with more vision have better ideas :)
20:18:53 <nielsm> and if multiple industries pull in the same direction positive/negative growth effect, is it summed, multiplied, root of sum of squares, min/max, or something else
20:19:55 <andythenorth> ok so I am a bad person to design specs, because I only have FIRS cases
20:20:11 <andythenorth> my case goes something like
20:20:41 <andythenorth> IF a town doesn't have a certain type of industry, let town handle growth
20:20:46 <nielsm> but yes some concrete use cases would be a useful basis for designing a spec :)
20:20:59 <andythenorth> IF a town does have industry of type x, let industries influence town growth
20:21:16 <andythenorth> there might be more than one industry of type x
20:21:30 <andythenorth> and there might also be types y, z, a, b, c etc
20:21:53 <andythenorth> I want to be able to (1) prevent all growth
20:22:06 <andythenorth> (2) make growth happen faster than default
20:22:22 <andythenorth> hmm, can towns shrink? :P
20:23:22 <nielsm> they don't really have a procedure for it no
20:23:52 <andythenorth> they do actually shrink if playing before 1930, but that's a bug :)
20:24:20 <nielsm> but bugs can cause thw town zones to break in weird ways and cause a town to build low-density all the way through
20:24:33 <nielsm> at least I've seen that happen once with the UK town replacement set
20:24:49 <andythenorth> with base set, theatres, statues
20:24:58 <andythenorth> population collapse
20:25:51 <andythenorth> so for basic rationale, I just want to give player a reason to deliver cargos like building materials and vehicles
20:26:18 <nielsm> town buildings probably ought to have an "is a park/plaza" flag and avoid building too many of those relative to population and/or radius
20:26:50 <andythenorth> I don't know how industry influence would interact with, e.g. requirements for food, water etc
20:27:12 <nielsm> I haven't checked how GS town growth control works either
20:27:18 <andythenorth> I'm not looking for "industry controls all town behaviour", that would be wrong
20:27:47 <andythenorth> I don't even want to talk about GS route, it seems to cause rage quits and arguments :)
20:28:36 * andythenorth wonders if it would only be industries in town catchments
20:28:44 <andythenorth> power plants are an interesting case
20:28:54 <andythenorth> what if towns didn't grow unless nearby power plant is serviced
20:29:01 <andythenorth> what's 'nearby' in that case?
20:29:20 <nielsm> nearest industry of type to town center?
20:29:34 <nielsm> then every town would need to keep track of various types of industries
20:35:08 <frosch123> you can probably write a gs which makes towns require oil to grow, but lowers the requirement when powerplants are serviced
20:39:14 <milek7> there is GS that assign industries to cities
20:39:25 <milek7> and increases growth dependent on cargo tyeps
20:39:29 <milek7> and increases growth dependent on cargo types
20:44:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp8R
20:48:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp8z
20:52:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp8a
21:00:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp8X
21:02:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp81
21:06:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp8y
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21:23:19 <Samu> there can be only one GS :(
21:24:16 <nielsm> because lots of things GS can do are of the category "imagine if two attempted doing this at the same time"
21:24:57 <nielsm> i.e. things that don't have a good resolution if separate actors are pulling in each their direction
21:25:06 <nielsm> they'll pull the rug out from under each other
21:25:14 <andythenorth> the GS route is old ground :)
21:25:25 * andythenorth doesn't want to retread it
21:26:35 <andythenorth> an alternative route I could pursue is to delete town cargos
21:26:41 <andythenorth> and just ignore towns in the game
21:26:46 <nielsm> but really the entire execution model for both AI and GS are wrong: AI ought to run entirely asynchronously as its own process, observing the game, and GS ought to run synchronously and not have events but callbacks
21:27:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply… https://git.io/fjp43
21:27:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply… https://git.io/fjp4s
21:27:50 <andythenorth> there's a new version of Steeltown in dev, where town cargos are pretty much non-existent
21:28:41 <andythenorth> imho, town growth mechanic is the only major flaw in original TTD
21:29:09 <nielsm> someone should have a scriptedclient video driver, headless client that runs a script and connects to a multiplayer server :)
21:30:37 <nielsm> towns don't really have an economy of their own, you don't have rich and poor towns, industrial and commercial towns, etc.
21:31:07 <andythenorth> somebody (ahem TB) made a spec for this
21:31:19 <andythenorth> unifying GS and newgrf
21:31:39 <andythenorth> but it fell in the rage quit hole :)
21:33:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply… https://git.io/fjp4C
21:33:22 <nielsm> bikeshedding a bit here
21:40:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7651: Too many statues/fountains are built in town centers. https://git.io/fjXfH
21:47:02 <michi_cc> nielsm: LLVM uses CFReleaser somewhere in the internals, but that's not exactly a strong argument either.
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23:19:12 <FLHerne> "imagine if two attempted doing this at the same time"
23:19:58 <FLHerne> nielsm: But that's the case for newgrfs already, and no-one cares that you can totally break the game
23:20:31 <FLHerne> Industries are probably the best example there
23:22:28 <FLHerne> Also anything that modifies base vehicles or graphics
23:23:00 <FLHerne> Or sets trying to define railtypes in incompatible ways
23:23:43 <FLHerne> We just shrug and say "don't do that"
23:26:17 <FLHerne> Because GSes can do a lot of orthogonal things and it would be nice to pick-and-choose a bit more
23:28:34 <FLHerne> e.g. there's a GS that allows limiting companies to one rail depot, to avoid the random point-to-point sprawl
23:29:32 <FLHerne> But you can't use it with a goal-setting GS, or an improved-town-growth GS, because only one
23:29:50 <andythenorth> universal modding framework!
23:30:02 * andythenorth should stick to horses
23:30:09 <FLHerne> Currently, most GSes are intrusive game-dominating frameworks
23:31:08 <FLHerne> But I think there'd be more niche tweak-this-one-behaviour ones if it was actually practical to use them
23:32:59 <andythenorth> it's an appealing thought
23:33:04 * andythenorth wondered about scriptable UI :P
continue to next day ⏵
