IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-03-20
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01:15:14 <drac_boy> had to ask but is it part of the grf or rather the graphic engine that determines what kind of transparency to use? (especially as how some grf trees don't seem to transparent out so well compared to the vanilla ones)
01:25:53 <drac_boy> sorry have to afk now..migth recheck another day tho
01:45:27 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7384: Add: Display tooltips on industry chains window even when "Show toolt… https://git.io/fjf3x
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03:15:56 <Samu> there is no invalid order event for AIs?
03:16:14 <Samu> how could it be forgotten?
03:16:54 <Samu> because I actually need it
03:17:24 <Samu> my ai is still having invalid orders
03:30:55 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7389: Fix tooltips not appearing in some instances. https://git.io/fjfG8
03:46:10 <peter1138> Order::MakeDummy, I guess.
03:50:04 <Pikka> check AIOrder::IsVoidOrder ?
03:51:27 <Samu> some of my vehicles get invalid orders in the order list
03:51:45 <Samu> I'm figuring out how to reproduce it
03:51:50 <Samu> so far, not much success
03:52:00 <Samu> wanna see what causes it
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03:52:26 <peter1138> Players get news items about void orders.
03:52:30 <peter1138> Do AIs not get news items?
03:53:34 <Pikka> including ET_VEHICLE_LOST, but I don't know if that's triggered by void orders
03:54:04 <Samu> they were service non-stop at a specified depot
03:54:13 <Samu> but they turn invalid somehow
03:54:25 <Pikka> only if the depot gets removed, I'd have thought?
03:54:38 <peter1138> Yeah, explicit event for vehicle lost.
03:54:51 <peter1138> Seems AIs don't just get news events.
03:55:01 <Samu> I track the stations and depots of a route
03:55:48 <Samu> the route still exists, I still see the depot, however no vehicle is going to it
03:56:07 <Samu> it turned invalid, something is causing it to become invalid
03:57:46 <Samu> it also seems to be very rare
03:58:01 <Samu> started AI in 1935, and only in 1971 I noticed it
03:58:32 <Samu> I compare the order flags, and there's a mismatch
04:18:41 <Samu> damn it, i can't reproduce this at all
04:18:49 <Samu> it's 1972 now, still didn't happen
04:44:00 <Samu> I dont understand what happened
04:44:29 <Samu> Fundhattan Road Vehicle Depot
04:44:51 <Samu> the orders simply turned invalid
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05:11:18 <Samu> i give up for today, will try again tomorrow
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07:33:41 <andythenorth> zellepins tho Pikka
07:34:46 <andythenorth> I should play a game
07:35:47 <andythenorth> I should fix FIRS
07:35:51 <andythenorth> so I can zellepins
07:42:40 <andythenorth> 16-cargo feature
07:42:47 <andythenorth> FIRS assumed 3 in, 2 out
07:43:01 <andythenorth> it assumed it with prejudice :P
07:47:17 <andythenorth> what you really need is the ability to run 16 AI
07:47:29 <andythenorth> bad andythenorth
07:48:00 <andythenorth> and after that...a GS pikka? o_O
07:48:22 <peter1138> Low polygon pixels.
07:48:22 <andythenorth> what's it called?
07:48:27 <Pikka> after ukrs3, scrabble, landscape, etc :)
07:49:08 <andythenorth> but UKRS 3 + group liveries :)
07:49:26 <andythenorth> what will you do with the 3rd Company Colour we're going to add
07:49:49 <Pikka> I'm actually putting 2cc on surprisingly little. I might have to go back and add some more...
07:50:05 <andythenorth> peter1138: I had a stupid idea
07:50:18 <andythenorth> well the day name ends in 'y'
07:50:22 <andythenorth> I only do it then
07:51:09 <andythenorth> so, at least in photoshop, you can load an abitrary palette file, without forcing the image to indexed
07:51:42 <andythenorth> so I wondered about defining a 256 + 256 colour palette, and using 32bpp
07:51:51 <andythenorth> 256 regular colours
07:52:06 <andythenorth> 256 for water cycle, fire, 1CC, 2CC, 3CC, flashing lights
07:52:12 <andythenorth> oh and the night cycle that needs adding
07:52:41 <andythenorth> keeps the 8bpp style, but not the technical implementation
07:52:54 <andythenorth> "that's really stupid andythenorth"
07:53:42 <peter1138> You can't redefine the palette animcation cycle colours, but the rest is fine.
07:54:03 <peter1138> It makes it incompatible with RGB company colours though.
07:54:59 <andythenorth> what are those pinks about also?
07:55:23 <andythenorth> there are 13 of them
07:55:45 <andythenorth> same colour value, but different indexes
07:58:10 <peter1138> Well... nobody knows.
08:00:34 <peter1138> That is why I mentioned it, yes :p
08:00:44 <andythenorth> yes I have been watching that thread but not replying
08:01:21 <andythenorth> so automatic recolour, or layers?
08:09:57 <peter1138> (Why would you even need 3CC? o_O)
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08:10:15 <peter1138> Is it because I haven't done variants yet?
08:12:35 <andythenorth> layers for day night
08:12:39 <andythenorth> dunno why I'd need 3CC
08:12:42 <andythenorth> it's mostly for lolz
08:12:49 <andythenorth> I'd have to redraw everything
08:13:19 <peter1138> You'll need to to fit in with TaI32.
08:13:20 <andythenorth> oh I remember, it's 1990s trains
08:13:40 <peter1138> 1990s? Oh I see. Realism.
08:23:16 <andythenorth> hmm, rgba can do semi-opaque?
08:23:22 * andythenorth designs headlight beams
08:25:20 <andythenorth> extra vehicle on the front
08:25:24 <andythenorth> headlights go round corners
08:34:07 <peter1138> Like some kind of Citroen from the 60s.
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09:34:11 <Beerbelott> About that DOS tests of the most recent OpenTTD which proved to be run incredibly slowly
09:34:28 <Beerbelott> Wasn't the original OpenTTD exploiting mechanisms which have since been fixed?
09:35:35 <Beerbelott> Sometimes improving coding wreak havoc in backwards-compatibility tests or performances optimization
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10:41:29 <peter1138> Beerbelott, biggest issue is nobody used or tested it for nearly a decade, so regressions could be anywhere, or indeed nothing to do with our code. But no, OpenTTD never exploited undefined behaviour.
11:11:05 <LordAro> peter1138: wasn't there something about 2d graphics performance which has slowly decreased though?
11:19:19 <peter1138> Well we default to 32bpp now, because modern OSes don't support switching to 8bpp nicely.
11:19:38 <peter1138> And 32bpp mode forces software palette animation, obviously.
11:20:04 <peter1138> But unless you ran OpenTTD in full-on fullscreen mode, that was always the case.
11:21:19 <peter1138> OpenTTD uses more memory due to 4x and 2x zoom levels. They are pre-scaled, so use up 21x more memory. This is why there's a max zoom level setting.
11:22:05 <peter1138> It's possible that tweaking these settings would make the DOS port run at 'normal' speed but nobody bothered to test it.
11:22:09 <peter1138> And it's gone now :-)
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12:55:19 <Beerbelott> There's indeed no vision
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12:56:23 <peter1138> Was that a rage quit?
13:07:45 <m3henry> I've address all the change requests in #7165, but Github says I still have some to do :s
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13:40:12 <LordAro> i wonder whether anything is actually better served by the suggestions forum
13:43:05 <peter1138> I believe that's our policy at the moment.
13:43:33 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry https://git.io/fjf4R
13:44:55 <_dp_> suggestions forum feels like openttd equivalent of /dev/null
13:45:21 <andythenorth> that's the correct destination for most suggestions
13:45:30 <andythenorth> they're not a pot of gold that needs to be preserved
13:45:44 <andythenorth> but they do show themes
13:45:49 <_dp_> yeah, like wtf, ppl send trains with wagons for some cargo to a station providing that cargo with load order and want it not to load
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14:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it's a problem with defaults. if you have more than one set of trains, and a change like this occurs (accidental extension of catchment area, or random industry construction, or something) you need to change every single train order, instead of setting a toggle at the station
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14:23:38 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, I just use "unload all no loading" on all one-way trains
14:24:03 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: yeah, but you're not the base line here.
14:24:09 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, as for defaults it's unclear what is better as there are plenty situations when current defaults work fine
14:24:33 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, mb something like "if unloaded no loading" would be a better default but idk
14:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: "most people" will just use "go to A" and "go to B"
14:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: and then retroactively changing that is... cumbersome
14:25:40 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, you first need to understand why it's not working when it worked in the other 99 cases before
14:25:49 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, but what do you suggest as default then? train doesn't even know what is it supposed to do on a station by default
14:25:50 <peter1138> Can we retroactively remove the shitty default airports?
14:26:05 <peter1138> I guess make them an settings option for savegame compatibility :/
14:26:24 <peter1138> Just leave the original defaults.
14:26:27 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: make new statemachines and a bit of fixup code?
14:26:41 <peter1138> We have newgrf airport layouts already
14:26:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but no newgrf statemachines
14:27:58 <Eddi|zuHause> which IIRC wasn't a "we can't do it" problem, but a "we don't know how to provide a useful programming interface"
14:30:43 <andythenorth> we could have better airports? :o
14:30:58 <andythenorth> where the bigger ones aren't lower rate than the smaller ones? :O
14:34:19 <Eddi|zuHause> no, because that's not a vision
14:35:04 <peter1138> varaction 2 statemachines?
14:35:27 <LordAro> also determining whether newgrf airports can deadlock requires solving the halting problem
14:35:37 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i've not really followed it, but i had the impression it was going to be action 0
14:35:40 <peter1138> I don't know where it got.
14:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> there might also have been multiple competing ideas
14:40:58 <Eddi|zuHause> there might also have been a problem with some random guy coming in and shouting state machines for road every now and then
14:46:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you have a vision for a vision?
14:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause> (do you think it's funny how two people can put the same words in the same order, and yet mean completely different things?)
14:48:22 <planetmaker> but seems the conclusion "everyone his own pony no matter what" is the mantra to go for.
14:48:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's not what we were saying
14:49:38 <planetmaker> you basically were saying "no, I don't want to have a big picture, I want features"
14:50:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you were basically saying "i don't have a vision either, but let's just remove old things and see if one appears"
14:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and frankly, that is a thing that could endanger the whole project, stagnant or not
14:50:53 <planetmaker> And actually it just happens. Like removing dos support
14:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it happens, but it needs to be justified, and not by a "all old things are automatically bad" attitude
14:52:12 <planetmaker> I don't argue that nor did I
14:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you didn't say it, but it's certainly what arrived at the other end
14:53:13 <planetmaker> that's what you seem to want to understand for convenience reasons. that's my impression. And it avoids actual discussion of what way things could be improved
14:53:23 <planetmaker> and how. Especially how
14:53:40 <planetmaker> so the "discussion" is not worth its name.
14:54:04 <planetmaker> because of "oh, don't change anything existing"
14:54:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but the "how" is exactly the problem. you came along here with a strong attitude "we need a vision", but yet you haven't brought up any vision yourself
14:54:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not about what you were saying at all, but more about the attitude that came across
14:54:50 <planetmaker> and you came here like "oh, no change at all, just don't start any talk without presenting a 20-page paper"
14:55:05 <planetmaker> which is also about the attitude
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14:55:24 <planetmaker> thus the argument falls right on your feet
14:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, but you were in the position of the outsider/newcomer in that discussion
14:56:04 <planetmaker> not engaging in constructive, but destructive feedback
14:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> which means by default that you need the stronger argument
14:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> to change the status quo
14:56:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the status quo is always reluctant to change
14:57:27 <planetmaker> The status quo is also change. Just not in any coordinated way
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14:57:53 <planetmaker> I'm advocating to get some more coherency into it. Or at least enable people to easier get an overview
14:58:26 <planetmaker> Status quo actually is quite heavy change. Just random walks here and there. As everyone implements his or own ponies.
14:58:43 <planetmaker> Which is fine. But doesn't help which ponies to go for when in doubt
15:00:25 <Eddi|zuHause> a "status quo" in the most general sense is always some semi-stable "everything just fell into place" state, where you need a lot of momentum to get out of
15:00:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and the argument you were providing was aiming at getting out of that state, but didn't provide enough momentum
15:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so it detoriated
15:01:10 <planetmaker> And exactly that is not the case currently. Things are drifting this and that way. Without any thought of where to go
15:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that's all true. but things don't change by just stating true things.
15:02:54 <planetmaker> Nor do they by just saying "fine, do it" and throwing rocks and block stones whereever possible. So you clearly don't want anything to change nor even bother to think about what would be useful / sensible
15:03:03 <planetmaker> no argument can beat that complacency
15:04:22 <Eddi|zuHause> not "no argument". just not your argument.
15:04:33 <planetmaker> what is your argument?
15:05:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have an argument.
15:05:39 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7225: Add: Various AI/GS functions that may be useful. https://git.io/fjfR6
15:06:01 <peter1138> Well that didn't auto-close :/
15:06:18 <planetmaker> PeterN referenced this issue 26 days ago
15:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> it wasn't part of the commit message?
15:07:40 <peter1138> Tends to work when it's referenced in the PR, guess it wasn't.
15:08:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how github does it. the thing i was using a few years ago worked by scanning commit messages for "fix #blah"
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15:32:02 <peter1138> I wonder where the discussions for state machines were?
15:32:33 <peter1138> Cos richk's default airports are still biting us.
15:32:55 <peter1138> And also, what about the airport sets that exist? Do they just not work?
15:33:32 <planetmaker> Is there more than one airport set?
15:33:44 <planetmaker> (other than simple sprite replacement)
15:34:44 <planetmaker> ogfx+airports has its own layouts - but it is quite constrained in what it can choose as the aircraft paths cannot change
15:36:28 <planetmaker> as to the statemachine discussion: I'd search for yexo's attempts... no idea when though
15:51:32 <andythenorth> gravedig all that :)
15:56:53 <peter1138> Hmm, so ships need state machines as well, eh?
15:57:39 <peter1138> That seems like a gameplay vs realism thing for ships, for sure.
16:05:51 <andythenorth> didn't you just add state machines for ships peter1138 ?
16:28:17 <planetmaker> some year on 7th June was a discussion about state machines
16:28:22 <planetmaker> dunno which year :P
16:33:14 <peter1138> That's a funny year.
16:33:36 <planetmaker> the 24th February is any year after that
16:33:47 <planetmaker> my logs don't have years in the lines
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16:34:23 <peter1138> andythenorth, no, no state machines.
16:34:38 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
16:36:56 <peter1138> I suspect that no longer works.
16:37:16 <peter1138> andythenorth, do I need to do that?
16:37:32 <peter1138> State for ships is... "are we at a docking point"
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16:38:03 <peter1138> Newgrf docks are currently just tile graphics. Just eye-candy.
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17:11:24 <TrueBrain> it was no fun to make, pretty sure it is no fun to review :)
17:15:05 <andythenorth> peter1138: you made ships turn and stuff, instead of reversing, that's enough state handling :P
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17:51:30 <Samu_> the depot exists in an earlier date
17:51:56 <Samu_> and still exists after the orders are turned invalid, same construction date, I didn't delete it
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17:53:23 <Samu_> road vehicle 1150 is of interest
17:55:36 <Samu_> I have no idea what causes it, I don't know how to debug this, need help
17:59:07 <Samu_> im starting to think this is a bug in openttd itself
17:59:14 <Samu_> i really don't know though
17:59:36 <peter1138> Do other AIs get it?
17:59:58 <peter1138> Share your AI again, unless it's the bananas one :)
18:00:14 <Samu_> it happens on the bananas one too
18:00:15 <peter1138> And we can see about adding that missing event.
18:01:29 <Samu_> but if you want my current testing version, it's on my github
18:01:57 <Samu_> changelog says it fixed the bug, but it didn't
18:02:46 <Samu_> took about 55 years for it to happen
18:05:04 <Samu_> there is a mass replace happening in 1987
18:05:14 <Samu_> hereford leopard to foster bus
18:06:17 <Samu_> the groups become empty, or nearly empty
18:06:50 <Samu_> they're all moved to group 3 temporarily
18:06:58 <Samu_> then the mass replacement happens
18:07:07 <Samu_> and they're moved back to their original groups
18:07:21 <Samu_> maybe there is something flawed happening during this transtition
18:13:50 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7384: Add: Display tooltips on industry chains window even when "Show toolt… https://git.io/fjvgY
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18:24:18 <Samu_> mass replacement went through fine, no problems yet
18:24:27 <Samu_> I'm 2 years away from the problem
18:26:57 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7384: Fix: Display tooltips on industry chains window even when "Show toolt… https://git.io/fjfzy
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18:56:35 <Samu_> random isn't really deterministic at times
18:57:36 <Samu_> in one game, a town is named Little Sunton, in the other, the same town with the same houses and roads in the same places, is called Sennbury
18:59:18 <peter1138> Well, groups don't affect orders.
18:59:25 <peter1138> But replacement might.
19:02:12 <glx> Samu_: but they should get the same name
19:03:59 <Samu_> damn it, break causes desyncs?
19:04:47 <Samu_> omg, damn it, i missed it!
19:04:54 <Samu_> it happened earlier, this thing isn't in sync
19:06:07 <Samu_> can't reproduce this reliably
19:06:28 <Samu_> wasted 3 hours for nothing
19:07:30 <Samu_> break on influences deterministic somehow
19:07:43 <Samu_> things went different after a break
19:14:18 <Samu_> i think i got a savegame where it is reproducible
19:14:25 <Samu_> finally I'm getting somewhere
19:15:21 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] commented on pull request #7158: Add: Client setting gui.start_spectator https://git.io/fjfgw
19:20:55 <Samu_> this makes no sense, the depot orders turn invalid while I'm the middle of an airport construction
19:21:00 <Samu_> this is a bug in openttd
19:21:41 <glx> removed airport and rebuilding it ?
19:22:31 <Samu_> checking for places where to build airport
19:25:08 <TrueBrain> whoho! More old shit gone :D
19:26:04 <Samu_> it's not even close to where the road vehicle depot is located
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19:28:04 <TrueBrain> glx: wrong cmake file for sure :D
19:28:19 <glx> not sure about the functions names
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19:30:10 <Samu_> finally getting somewhere
19:30:16 <Samu_> when the heliport is placed
19:30:26 <Samu_> the depot orders of road vehicles become invalid
19:30:45 <TrueBrain> glx: I would postfix the original function name
19:30:48 <TrueBrain> a lot more clear, I think
19:31:00 <TrueBrain> add_custom_target_with_timestamp_safeguard
19:31:09 <Samu_> sounds like something I've done
19:31:09 <TrueBrain> or: safe_add_custom_target
19:31:22 <TrueBrain> but changing the original name is confusing
19:32:11 <Samu_> was my invalidate order patch accepted in master?
19:32:18 <TrueBrain> I feel it is weird this is needed glx :P You would think others have solved it
19:32:51 <Samu_> still, weird that road vehicles get affected
19:33:04 <glx> every where I see the suggestion to do it by hand
19:35:07 <peter1138> Mountain biking tongiht.
19:36:01 <Samu_> I suspect this is where the bug comes from
19:37:00 <Samu_> RemoveOrderFromAllVehicles(OT_GOTO_DEPOT, st->index, true);
19:37:14 <Samu_> this is picking up road vehicles apparently
19:37:28 <andythenorth> peter1138: any mountains near you? o_O
19:37:34 <glx> merged 22 days ago, definitely in 1.9.0
19:42:48 <Samu_> terrible coincidence if it's really this, I caused it
19:43:25 <TrueBrain> literally on that URL is the tag of which release it is in .. how can that be a question?! :P
19:45:13 <Samu_> but the patch is mine, all mine, It's entirely my fault
19:46:56 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: is today Arbitrary Artefact Publishing Day? Or is it just Wednesday? :D
19:47:18 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: one way to fix your github issue with Jekyll btw is to attach a custom domain to it
19:47:22 <TrueBrain> we can do that this weekend or something
19:48:05 <andythenorth> I am curious about the more general solution
19:48:15 <andythenorth> or if it's not general, solving each case
19:48:42 <andythenorth> it's not very long
19:48:49 <TrueBrain> that's what she said
19:49:56 <andythenorth> general case is: publishing artefacts from CI, with some kind of VCS rev, or tag; including html pages which should be browser-viewable
19:50:00 <andythenorth> things that need this
19:50:20 <andythenorth> - potentially OpenTTD docs
19:50:30 <andythenorth> - NoGo and NoAI are already doing this?
19:50:42 <TrueBrain> the above, I was only talking about you wanted to toy with the OpenTTD website ;) That we can solve with a custom domain, as only the path is incorrect :P
19:50:43 <andythenorth> - coop bundles already does this
19:51:01 <andythenorth> yeah I nearly bought a domain to fix it :P
19:51:13 <Samu_> m2 contains the station ID or depot ID right?
19:51:13 <TrueBrain> can be andy.staging.openttd.org :P
19:51:28 <andythenorth> it would help get the website redesign done :)
19:51:33 <Samu_> well, station ID is 0x28, depot ID is also 0x28...
19:51:43 <TrueBrain> exactly; so I can do that this weekend
19:51:47 <TrueBrain> that should be easy
19:51:54 <TrueBrain> about the other docs .. havent thought about it yet
19:52:00 <TrueBrain> a list is nice, shows the things we need to consider
19:52:06 <TrueBrain> still think DO Spaces are the best place
19:52:07 <andythenorth> I have thought about it in terms of general problem
19:52:10 <TrueBrain> need to figure out a safe way to use them
19:52:17 <andythenorth> rather than the usual approach everyone does, of [named tech]
19:52:58 <andythenorth> afaict, problem condenses to
19:53:22 <andythenorth> - storing auth creds safely in Azure Pipelines, maybe with traceability and revokeability (optional)
19:53:33 <andythenorth> - directory listings, and serving html
19:53:48 <TrueBrain> Spaces, like S3 buckets, don't really allow dir listing
19:53:50 <andythenorth> I _think_ that's it, but I'm not very smart, so eh
19:54:06 <TrueBrain> storing the creds is not the real issue here
19:54:12 <TrueBrain> distributing them in a way I am not involved is :)
19:54:32 <TrueBrain> we can also just pay for a persistent storage disc, and sync that to the CDN
19:54:58 <andythenorth> I am currently really missing that I no longer own any webservers
19:55:01 <TrueBrain> I think that costs $0.10/GB per month
19:55:18 <TrueBrain> so that is crazy cheap
19:55:18 <andythenorth> we used to have a static server with ftp / sftp
19:55:31 <andythenorth> but we deleted it like 12 years ago
19:55:39 <andythenorth> things changed :P
19:56:01 <TrueBrain> but okay, I will check what you want and what we have this weekend or so
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19:58:03 <andythenorth> once we have a destination
19:58:21 <andythenorth> $someone can decide if nml docs are going to sphinx, or jekyll, or our own .md compile or whatever
19:58:28 <andythenorth> and then me and Alberth will start moving them
19:58:49 <andythenorth> and then someone can point out we're fragmenting them away from the newgrf wiki and it's all terrible
19:59:06 <andythenorth> because there's always a good reason not to improve anything :P
20:00:12 <Alberth> :o we had to wait for permission? wasn't aware of that
20:00:59 <andythenorth> no we'll do it first :P
20:01:12 <andythenorth> then we'll get blamed :P
20:02:22 <Alberth> todays log doesn't seem to exist
20:02:25 <andythenorth> what's the fashionable way to do docs, with some basic search and navigation?
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20:03:32 <Samu_> order->GetType()) == type &&
20:03:32 <Samu_> v->current_order.GetDestination() == destination)
20:03:38 <Samu_> this check is insufficient
20:03:46 <Samu_> order type is GO TO Depot
20:04:19 <Samu_> destination brings up the depot ID, but it was used a station id instead
20:04:31 <Samu_> they have the same ID, but they're not related
20:04:43 <Samu_> one is a station, the other is a depot
20:05:35 <Alberth> andy: I am fine with rst and sphinx, at least mature enough to cover all our needs
20:06:15 <Samu_> gonna reuse the hangar boolean
20:06:19 <Alberth> and readthedocs is an option, just add a style probably?
20:06:40 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
20:06:54 <TrueBrain> its a sphinx theme, not?
20:08:39 <TrueBrain> btw, can I suggest if you use Sphinx, to use Markdown? (instead of rst)
20:08:50 <TrueBrain> (merely a suggestion :D)
20:09:04 <TrueBrain> also a good place to publish docs btw, readthedocs
20:10:04 <TrueBrain> or MkDocs; dont know that one
20:12:01 <Alberth> not sure if markdown is powerful enough
20:12:47 <andythenorth> there's a thing called GFM apparently
20:12:52 <andythenorth> that adds tables etc
20:13:04 <andythenorth> looks like a PITA tbh
20:14:24 <andythenorth> I guess it works
20:15:41 <Alberth> have to be a little carefult with markdown, GHs version is not standard
20:17:00 <andythenorth> well I have no prejudice
20:17:04 <andythenorth> rst / md I use both
20:17:12 <andythenorth> neither is proper html :P
20:18:10 <TrueBrain> HTML and proper in 1 sentence ... the only way that is allowed, is if there is a negate close to either one
20:24:54 <TrueBrain> I Wasnt being funny
20:31:02 <Alberth> oh dear, language file has long lines :p
20:34:07 <Alberth> btw started with the tutorial
20:35:01 <andythenorth> can we write a transmogrifier?
20:35:09 <andythenorth> for wiki format -> rst?
20:36:07 <andythenorth> there's currently zero need to change the structure or content, just the container
20:36:07 <LordAro> Samu_: ffs that's not an issue title
20:36:23 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: if with "we" you mean "you",sure :P
20:36:36 <LordAro> Samu_: so you did, carry on :)
20:36:48 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: we all know how my programming goes
20:36:56 <andythenorth> I ask questions here until other people have done it
20:37:01 <TrueBrain> that is what makes it awesome
20:37:01 <andythenorth> what was frosch123's quote?
20:37:12 <andythenorth> "artists think he's a great programmer"
20:37:22 <andythenorth> "programmers think he's a great artist"
20:37:36 <andythenorth> subtle, but devestating :(
20:38:01 <frosch123> yes, quoting clifford stoll
20:38:11 <andythenorth> applies to me, V453000 and pikka
20:43:32 <frosch123> i think some f blog post also distinguished people making images by drawing, and prople making images by scripting
20:49:43 <andythenorth> mediawiki -> rst? o_O
20:50:09 <frosch123> no idea what you try do do, but didn't md win against rst?
20:50:35 * andythenorth wonders if we can get a dump of wiki content
20:51:36 <frosch123> what would you want with that? stockpile supplies for winter?
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20:56:33 <frosch123> looks like there are less than 100 pages, so you can use the regular export page
20:57:11 <andythenorth> I haven't parsed xml for about 15 years :)
20:57:14 <andythenorth> blast from the past
20:57:26 <andythenorth> Alberth: ^ shall we exploit that then?
20:58:15 <Alberth> probably faster than manual copy, although we need to go through it all anyway
20:59:03 <frosch123> though some images have disputable licenses
20:59:59 <Alberth> oh fun, xml and media wiki syntax in the text
21:00:04 <andythenorth> Alberth: my plan would be automated transform to some kind of tmp dir, than manually move pages one at a time
21:00:14 <andythenorth> might be an awful plan :)
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21:01:24 <Alberth> it's going to be horrible anyway, no matter wgat you do, probably
21:02:30 <andythenorth> automated transforms have the benefit of rinse-repeat :)
21:03:02 <frosch123> those pages are not previledged
21:03:08 <andythenorth> I manually migrated OpenTTD website pages, but TB did a transform for the blog posts
21:03:31 <frosch123> i c&p the list of pages from the first page to the second, and got that xml
21:04:46 <Alberth> saved it in a file, so it's findable if we need it
21:09:31 <andythenorth> hmm, now I need an rst parse :P
21:11:20 <andythenorth> it's failing to understand the tables :P
21:12:16 <Alberth> needs reformatting anyway :p
21:20:26 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7384: Fix: Display tooltips on industry chains window even when "Show toolt… https://git.io/fjfVJ
21:24:22 <planetmaker> moving nml wiki to repo?
21:25:06 <LordAro> planetmaker: andy's decided all wiki's need to die
21:26:25 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7389: Fix tooltips not appearing in some instances. https://git.io/fjfVq
21:28:56 <Alberth> mostly have documentation for a specific release
21:29:28 <Samu_> if (ot == OT_GOTO_DEPOT && (order->GetDepotActionType() & ODATFB_NEAREST_DEPOT) != 0 || (v->type != VEH_AIRCRAFT && hangar)) continue;
21:29:33 <Samu_> wondering if this fix is enough
21:30:40 <Samu_> backup orders will be trouble :/
21:30:45 <frosch123> funnily nfo specs were in ttdp repo before moved to a tikiwiki, and later mediawiki
21:30:55 <frosch123> while nml specs were in nml repo before moved to mediawiki
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21:32:27 <andythenorth> things move in cycles
21:32:55 <andythenorth> there is a wiki case for general newgrf, e.g. cargo labels etc
21:33:27 <andythenorth> and a wiki case for grfcodec, because it releases so rarely, and the tool doesn't change much for newgrf features
21:34:02 <andythenorth> but if nml wants aggressive approach to deprecation, it needs versioned docs
21:34:39 <andythenorth> and it's good hygiene to include the doc changes with PRs changing features, because the one can't be released without the other
21:36:17 <andythenorth> so old is new again?
21:36:41 <frosch123> i think that is before nml 0.2
21:36:43 <planetmaker> that's well-argued, andythenorth
21:36:47 <frosch123> so, likely different syntax
21:38:33 <andythenorth> and some of the python packages
21:48:25 <andythenorth> any recollection of why repo html was moved to wiki?
21:48:46 <planetmaker> yes: maintainable
21:49:25 <andythenorth> no need to release for a docs edit?
21:49:34 <planetmaker> wiki has a much lower entry barrier in being added to than the repo itself - especially for NewGRF authors where many don't use VCS
21:49:56 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry updated pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector https://git.io/fhSz0
21:50:12 <planetmaker> added to that, tt-wiki has all NewGRF docs somewhat nicely combined in one place
21:50:37 <planetmaker> I wonder though... the validity of these two arguments somewhat deteriorated since they were made pro wiki
21:51:35 <andythenorth> I do like being able to move seamlessly between nml and nfo docs
21:51:46 <planetmaker> making it look nice also seemed to me somewhat easier in a wiki than writing the stuff myself in html
21:51:57 <andythenorth> ok so format was a factor?
21:52:25 <planetmaker> there might be better solutions meanwhile than editing html in plain text :P
21:53:28 <planetmaker> however, version differences is something which so far was IMHO quite well-documented in the wiki, too
21:54:10 <planetmaker> I quite like the graphical way version stuff is shown in tt-wiki with the small icons/graphics for nml/ottd/ttdp
21:54:59 <andythenorth> I am not 100% convinced on changing it yet
21:55:19 <andythenorth> the arguments are good, but are they balanced out by disadvantage of fragmenting wiki?
21:55:48 <planetmaker> what you mean with fragmenting wiki?
21:56:31 <andythenorth> moving nml to readthedocs or so
21:56:40 <andythenorth> means newgrf info is spread over two places
21:57:05 <planetmaker> where would grfcodec / nfo go? Should it be directly in OpenTTD?
21:57:19 <andythenorth> but the info is the same to consume in readthedocs or wiki
21:57:49 <planetmaker> that's what you use with firs, too, right?
21:57:56 <andythenorth> no I just wrote my own for newgrfs
21:58:27 <andythenorth> static html generation is a 10 min job :)
21:58:49 <andythenorth> I wonder if newgrf spec should be directly in OpenTTD docs?
21:58:56 <andythenorth> and all mention of TTDP is removed?
21:59:37 <andythenorth> then newgrf spec changes also come with docs written, in the OpenTTD PR
22:00:11 <LordAro> i'd be in favour of that
22:00:19 <andythenorth> historically newgrf docs have needed all this extra crap, like "works in OpenTTD r27050" etc
22:00:24 <andythenorth> and "not supported in TTDP"
22:00:37 <andythenorth> I want a bonfire, but not a bonfire of features
22:00:44 <andythenorth> just a bonfire of dead wood
22:01:00 <LordAro> those are the best bonfires
22:01:06 <planetmaker> as long as the dead wood does not come in the form of books :P
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22:01:21 <andythenorth> then the remaining community info can go to the OpenTTD wiki, e.g. cargo labels etc
22:01:56 <m3henry> LordAro: Am confused as to why GitHub complains I still have stuff to review, but I've Resolved all of them
22:02:32 *** supermop_work_ has joined #openttd
22:02:36 <planetmaker> That line of argument has charm. I wonder if some people will feel like we burn down our foundations
22:02:38 <LordAro> m3henry: reviews are separate from the comments, in terms of "changes requested"
22:02:45 * andythenorth should look in code
22:03:08 <andythenorth> I am wondering if there is *any* chance we can document action 0 / 1 / 2 / 3 with doxygen from OpenTTD src
22:03:51 <andythenorth> Doxygen can read .h files I assume?
22:03:55 <LordAro> i think something using groups could be done, but the code would have to be significantly refactored to properly support it
22:04:04 <planetmaker> I've my doubts that it works in a way that it actually is usable / understandable
22:04:14 <LordAro> alternatively, yeah, just a file with a comment will do, i think
22:04:21 <andythenorth> it's just a bit frustrating that it can't, but eh :)
22:04:25 <m3henry> LordAro: What do I do to deal with this?
22:04:31 <andythenorth> hysterical raisins :P
22:04:48 <andythenorth> we used to do a thing with python apps sometimes where there was a file of interfaces, with doc strings
22:04:51 <andythenorth> which were stable
22:05:00 *** supermop_work__ has joined #openttd
22:05:01 <andythenorth> and then they were pointed to other modules, methods etc
22:05:19 <andythenorth> ok, it's indirection, but it gave a list of core entities and relations in one place
22:06:25 *** supermop_work___ has joined #openttd
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22:13:05 <planetmaker> the beauty of a wiki is it works for small edits just like the easiest text editor thinkable: click, edit, save, done
22:14:46 <planetmaker> the ugly side is when it comes to making larger edits. Then it needs clicking in many places, here and there. No global search&replace etc
22:15:36 <frosch123> i think moving nfo docs to ottd won't work
22:15:49 <LordAro> github web editor largely solves the first problem
22:16:10 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm on the fence, what's your argument?
22:16:10 <frosch123> there are two things there: a plain spec, and something between an elaborate description/tutorial
22:16:44 <frosch123> i think when moving nml and nfo into a single wiki, there was also the idea to share the description part
22:16:50 <frosch123> though i guess that never worked out
22:17:05 <planetmaker> not to a large extend, but some
22:17:08 <andythenorth> I only really use the nfo docs
22:17:13 <andythenorth> o/c, I am weird :P
22:17:24 <frosch123> also, while you can happily make forks of nml with different syntax, that does not quite work for nfo
22:17:36 <andythenorth> I only use nml to look up the keywords, and the syntax
22:20:51 <frosch123> how about the opposite? :p vehicles grfs should define all properties, so there should be no defaults listed :p
22:21:15 <planetmaker> I agree with that approach
22:21:52 <frosch123> btw. that page is actually shared
22:22:04 <frosch123> nfo links to nml, since there is no individual nfo page :p
22:22:11 <planetmaker> oh. So maybe the context which is either or confused me
22:22:49 <frosch123> 7 nfo pages, 1 nml page
22:23:36 <frosch123> they differ in hex numbers vs. symbolic constants
22:24:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: so, i would advicse to not port those tables into your new md docs :p
22:25:21 <frosch123> planetmaker: if those numbers would be subject to change, i would suggest to generate those pages, but duh :p
22:26:19 <frosch123> people make that kind of pages
22:26:56 <frosch123> i would not be surprised if someone did not account for inflation
22:27:38 <frosch123> haha, even £ to $ conversion is wrong
22:30:58 <orudge> Nice, somebody's ported RPM to OS/2 and has set up a repository with a bunch of open source software ports
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22:43:18 <andythenorth> so...the conclusion is?
22:43:27 <andythenorth> moving docs might be a lot of work for neutral benefit? :P
22:43:34 <andythenorth> I am still +1 for personal reasons
22:44:11 <andythenorth> but I don't find the wiki hard to use, it's generally well structured, and search usually works
22:46:03 <andythenorth> mainly, I just really like the culture of docs that travel directly with the code
22:46:37 <andythenorth> it has worked really well for me in newgrf projects, and in some UI libraries I maintain
22:47:04 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #7392: Fix #7391, 9b99b95: Don't invalidate go to depot orders of non-aircra… https://git.io/fjfwH
22:51:50 <Samu_> line 1853/1854 also needs looking
22:58:17 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7392: Fix #7391, 9b99b95: Don't invalidate go to depot orders of non-aircra… https://git.io/fjfwH
23:00:58 <Samu_> good job, I guess that was it, I was about to create the PR
23:01:22 <Samu_> was still figuring a way to fix 1853/1854, I'm too slow
23:03:07 <Samu_> the order_backup is maybe not correct
23:04:07 *** Thedarkb-T60 has joined #openttd
23:07:17 <Samu_> ah, if it's the v->tile then it's correct
23:08:17 <Samu_> IsHangarTile check is ...
23:11:16 <michi_cc> It's the equivalent to v->type == VEH_AIRCRAFT
23:11:42 <glx> lol stale bot marks closed task as stale
23:13:41 <Samu_> so my AI was fine afterall
23:14:10 <Samu_> wait, no, i need v10 still
23:14:28 <Samu_> just not that ugly check to ensure depots were still in use
23:27:12 <Samu_> maybe I should describe it
23:29:09 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7376: Fix: Enforce the max_no_competitors test before creating an AI company in multiplayer. https://git.io/fjfr0
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23:49:42 <peter1138> Eating a very late dinner. Maybe I should've not bothered.
continue to next day ⏵
