IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-03-17
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00:04:58 <andythenorth> Pathfinder-Final-Final
00:04:58 <peter1138> Oh dear, the title game a bit a weird now :/
00:05:06 <andythenorth> like every work fileshare ever
00:05:18 <peter1138> Copy of Copy of Copy of
00:05:29 <peter1138> Hmm, I should put NIN on.
00:05:34 <drac_boy> maybe don't make so many duplications? :)
00:06:02 <andythenorth> head like a hole
00:06:11 <andythenorth> Trent Reznor is all grown up now though
00:08:05 <peter1138> andythenorth, yeah.... I "saw" him at the Royal Albert Hall last year.
00:08:29 <peter1138> "saw" because that place it too big.
00:08:32 <andythenorth> did he smash any synths?
00:08:34 <peter1138> He was just a little spec :p
00:08:41 <andythenorth> he mostly works for Apple
00:09:29 <peter1138> Eh, so docking on the 'side' of docks is a bit weird in the title game.
00:10:21 <peter1138> Introduce a game setting just so the title game isn't weird :p
00:18:35 <andythenorth> Make Docks Great Again!
00:18:40 <andythenorth> one tile locks next :P
00:22:26 <peter1138> Tons of CZTR newgrfs
00:35:31 <drac_boy> hmm anyway going back to sorting out sprites myself
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04:10:59 <Samu> wow, double interface size, separate from text size
04:11:59 <Samu> I wish stuff could be scaled by 130%, 150%, or so
04:12:14 <Samu> 100% to 200% is too steep
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09:12:57 <utack> hello. does someone know where in the opengfx source i would find the town statue and fountain?
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09:18:01 <utack> sorry, got it: "statuefountain.png"
09:18:23 <peter1138> If only it was all that logical :-)
09:19:00 <utack> it is listed uner /houses/ and not /miscellaneous/, so it is only 50% logical
09:19:19 <peter1138> Hmm, I think that's because they appear in towns.
09:29:39 <peter1138> "Oil refinery explosion"
09:29:43 <peter1138> Hmm, never seen that before.
09:47:21 <peter1138> Damn, regression test fails :/
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09:52:53 <peter1138> Ah, dock removal behaviour. Hmm.
09:58:46 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Hmm, never seen that before. <-- playing without disasters usually, i presume?
10:08:05 <andythenorth> why do I play with disasters off?
10:08:15 <andythenorth> no disasters, no breakdowns
10:08:23 <andythenorth> then I complain the game is boring and needs GS
10:08:32 <andythenorth> oh yeah, UFOs are stupid
10:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> landing in the same spot over and over, way too frequently
10:09:51 <andythenorth> GS disasters will never happen
10:09:55 <andythenorth> like GS-Anything
10:10:06 <peter1138> I better go. 20 minutes to get the start o_O
10:49:06 <Eddi|zuHause> is that an interesting question to ask? when we decided to go C++11, then naturally more and more of these will creep in slowly
10:52:23 <TrueBrain> it is a very interesting question to ask, as nobody can answer it really :D
10:52:33 <TrueBrain> the reason CMake from 3.8 decided to change it in 'meta' packages
10:52:38 <TrueBrain> c++11, c++17, c++20
10:52:57 <TrueBrain> funny how nice an idea sounds, but how impossible it is to roll out :)
10:53:07 <TrueBrain> that dates back from when compilers added 1 feature at the time
10:53:10 <TrueBrain> instead of a whole standard :P
10:53:30 <TrueBrain> more to the point in our case, 'fallback' is not in there, so making MSVC automaticlaly use c++17 is not working :(
10:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we have different definitions of "interesting" here :)
10:53:40 <TrueBrain> so we need to special case MSVC, because we use a tiny bit of c++17 there :P
10:53:56 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is a you problem, not a me problem :D
10:55:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not understanding the problem you're trying to solve
10:55:54 <TrueBrain> that you don't consider this interesting?
10:55:58 <TrueBrain> that is a you problem, not a me problem :)
10:56:03 <TrueBrain> doesn't need a resolution :)
10:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the msvc problem
10:56:18 <TrueBrain> we use 1 thing from c++17 with MSVC
10:56:23 <TrueBrain> all other platforms are c++11
10:56:29 <TrueBrain> so we had to special case MSVC
10:56:47 <TrueBrain> well, honestly, I dont know if it is a c++17 feature, or that MSVC added it in c++17, and others in c++11
10:56:49 <TrueBrain> I really don't know
10:56:53 <TrueBrain> I just don't like special casing
10:57:01 <TrueBrain> so I found this cxx_known_features
10:57:07 <TrueBrain> and had to laugh how impossible and inpracticle it was
10:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause> see, it's not interesting :)
10:57:36 <Alberth> our lord aro will know
10:57:39 <TrueBrain> see, it is a you problem :)
10:57:59 <Eddi|zuHause> if it doesn't solve any problem
10:58:12 <TrueBrain> things are only interesting if it solves problems?
10:58:34 <Alberth> but given that other compilers accept it under c++11, I'd guess msvc is wrong in using c++17
10:59:02 <TrueBrain> wrong or not, it is the life we live in :P
10:59:37 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are interesting things that don't solve problems, but you're already deeply into the "i have a problem" category here
11:00:18 <TrueBrain> so many gcc flags we add .. holy crap
11:01:07 <TrueBrain> I so want to enable -Werror
11:01:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that would imply solving all the warnings first?
11:01:53 <TrueBrain> only if you consider passing CI important
11:03:45 <TrueBrain> so .. how am I going to do all the -Ws ... depending on your GCC version, Clang version, etc, some are accepted, others are not
11:03:51 <TrueBrain> do I just try to autodetect that ...
11:04:00 <TrueBrain> or do we hard-code it ..
11:04:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a MSVC manual from like 1993
11:04:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it says "Version 1.0"
11:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (theoretically i should also have the corresponding installation disks)
11:08:47 <TrueBrain> what a polite way to ask for daylength patch; that is a while ago
11:15:54 <TrueBrain> wait, you were here?
11:15:56 <andythenorth> I will leave the polite reply to someone else :P
11:16:00 <andythenorth> I am watching TV
11:16:07 <andythenorth> I have lost all motivation to make things :P
11:16:28 <andythenorth> and now, kids football :)
11:24:07 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options https://git.io/fjvWL
11:29:45 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options https://git.io/fjvWq
11:40:34 <TrueBrain> we muted warnings that long have been solved .. lol
11:42:50 <Eddi|zuHause> well, we wouldn't know when to unmute them?
11:43:01 <TrueBrain> no, we fixed our code
11:43:10 <TrueBrain> we had a few -Wno, because we did silly things in the code
11:43:16 <TrueBrain> that got fixed .. -Wno didn't get removed :P
11:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> if the person fixing them wasn't the same as the one who added the -Wno, then why would they think of removing it?
11:44:04 <Eddi|zuHause> or if some time had passed
11:44:08 <TrueBrain> I am down to 2 -Wnos ..
11:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> probably putting in compiler options near the offending code instead of globally would have been a better idea
11:45:39 <TrueBrain> lol .. icc and gcc want -rdynamic as compile-flag
11:45:43 <TrueBrain> clang only as linker flag
11:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> aren't we using a configuration system precisely because it should abstract away such differences?
11:46:44 <TrueBrain> it does a lot, but not everything, n
11:50:30 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perkel666 commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options https://git.io/fjvWz
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11:56:53 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options https://git.io/fjvWr
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11:57:20 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options https://git.io/fjvWo
12:03:56 <TrueBrain> wow, MSVC with /W4 goes bananas :D
12:04:03 <TrueBrain> WE ARE NOT READY FOR THAT :P
12:05:06 <Alberth> they are actually useful warnings?
12:05:27 <TrueBrain> not really looked at it, but I saw a few: parameter variable unused
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12:05:50 <TrueBrain> which indeed should be a warning, in my opinion; you can mute it if youlike per parameter, but at least you are explicit you didnt want to do anything with that parameters
12:05:56 <Alberth> ah yeah, likely due to inheritance and overriding
12:08:16 <Alberth> these warnings tend to go overboard at some point, and warn for just about everything
12:08:41 <Alberth> "Warning: you wrote code that looks like nothing is wrong with it!"
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12:09:37 <andythenorth_> 7378 can be politely closed as ‘newgrf’
12:09:42 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
12:09:51 <andythenorth_> our pllicy is content, not settings
12:09:59 <andythenorth_> per openttd wiki
12:10:05 <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: can it be done with NewGRFs, or if we implement it, it could be done via NewGRFs? :D
12:11:05 <TrueBrain> for all we know, he comes with a patch that adds this to NewGRF (if it is not already possible)
12:11:25 <TrueBrain> IT COULD HAPPEN! :D
12:12:41 <andythenorth_> it’s already solved in newgrf spec
12:13:22 <andythenorth_> is DOS officially supported?
12:13:37 <andythenorth_> also is macOS supported?
12:14:04 <TrueBrain> but yes, DOS and MacOS "compile", and we "maintain" that :P
12:15:02 <andythenorth_> website lists the officially supported platforms
12:15:12 <andythenorth_> which is why I ask
12:15:40 * andythenorth_ considering editing a few docs later
12:15:56 <andythenorth_> when bored, do tedious bureaucracy :p
12:16:50 <andythenorth_> I would like to move the goals into gh docs, not lost in a wiki nobody uses :)
12:17:13 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perkel666 commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options https://git.io/fjvWb
12:18:04 <TrueBrain> string.cpp:66:49: warning: format string is not a string literal [-Wformat-nonliteral] <- new warning I get from clang now; not sure
12:18:15 <Alberth> maybe a PR got added :p
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12:20:37 <Alberth> warning is a false positive, we're making our own vseprintf
12:21:05 <TrueBrain> Alberth: so we should make it as such, I think. I believe you can .. not sure
12:21:20 <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: you have an URL to the exact spec in NewGRF that allows the distance thing?
12:21:33 <Alberth> officially you would have to re-impement the format parsing (%d and friends), I think
12:21:57 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options https://git.io/fjvWh
12:22:00 <andythenorth_> not on this phone anyway
12:22:51 <TrueBrain> meh .. I don't like replying: you can do this with NewGRF, without details :P
12:23:08 <andythenorth_> can do it later
12:23:26 <TrueBrain> and I still don't understand NewGRF :P
12:23:34 <andythenorth_> it requires creating an industry newgrf, for all industries wanted
12:24:54 <andythenorth_> newgrf: action 8, action 0, action 1, action 2, action 3, action 4
12:25:10 <andythenorth_> where’s the confusion? :p
12:25:38 <andythenorth_> it’s ok TB we don’t mind :)
12:25:40 <TrueBrain> I guess there is a callback when the game wants to place a town?
12:25:45 <TrueBrain> FU andythenorth_ :P
12:25:50 <andythenorth_> how do I git again?
12:26:16 <andythenorth_> there’s a cb when the game wants to place industry
12:26:22 <andythenorth_> towns are first
12:26:23 <TrueBrain> found it, for industries, I guess :)
12:26:41 <andythenorth_> then arbitrary variables can be checked
12:27:00 <andythenorth_> then placement allowed / disallowed
12:28:06 <Alberth> no worries TB, I fail at newgrf too :)
12:28:34 <andythenorth_> funny what real programmers fail at :p
12:29:31 <andythenorth_> is it the lack of any arcitectural clarity?
12:29:53 <andythenorth_> or the sense that there was no design?
12:30:17 <andythenorth_> or the seemingly arbitrary collection of actions, props, cbs?
12:30:52 <Alberth> lack of global structure mostly for me
12:31:05 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options https://git.io/fjvlU
12:31:22 <TrueBrain> NewGRF has no architectural anything
12:31:26 <Alberth> everything is a number, so it's impossible to remember
12:31:28 <TrueBrain> it is just .. things .. which happens to work together
12:31:36 <TrueBrain> there is no line, no consistency, no clarity of any kind
12:31:40 <TrueBrain> (sorry, but there really is not)
12:31:53 <andythenorth_> it’s built around “I want to do x to a train”
12:32:01 <TrueBrain> its a runaway train
12:32:14 <andythenorth_> just imagine it’s perl
12:32:15 <TrueBrain> a perfect textbook example of how things can go wrong if you don't have an architect controlling the flow :P
12:32:30 <TrueBrain> (I might or might not use this in my dayjob as an example .... :P)
12:33:12 <andythenorth_> well we’re stuck with it :)
12:33:14 <TrueBrain> anyway, that perkel dude does have a point; GitHub is not good for feature requests, but the forums is also shitty
12:33:42 <Alberth> "it does what you think it should do" doesn't work if you have no intuition what it should do in the first place
12:33:51 <andythenorth_> need an ideation tool :p
12:34:11 <Alberth> issue tracker and feature requests are mostly mutually exclusive
12:34:13 <TrueBrain> I do like how "demand" is defined by a thread with no replied for 6 years :P Not sure if that works for you, or against you :D
12:34:26 * andythenorth_ offers TB discount on ideation tool
12:34:27 <TrueBrain> yeah ... I keep hoping GitHub will add something for it
12:34:35 <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: 100% or bust
12:35:06 <TrueBrain> never heard the word ideation before btw :P
12:35:07 <andythenorth_> the thing is that feature requests are near useless
12:35:16 <TrueBrain> but it is a thing, I see (if I google)
12:35:44 <TrueBrain> you need a clear vision in which you can put them
12:35:57 <Alberth> but people have an urgue to make them, "Suggestions" forum seems the best to me
12:36:03 <TrueBrain> and some form of KPI to know what is needed
12:36:16 <andythenorth_> so shall we merge the content APIs?
12:36:32 <andythenorth_> all in squirrel
12:36:42 <TrueBrain> 10+ years ago we tried to make OpenTTD into a generic framework engine, in which OpenTTD happened to be a variant
12:36:45 <TrueBrain> but .. people did not like it :P
12:37:23 <andythenorth_> I am still carrying technical debt from making our main product a configurable framework
12:37:42 <andythenorth_> which would be flexible to meet commercial demands
12:37:47 <TrueBrain> modular is good, configurable framework ... a bit more difficult to do correctly :D
12:37:48 <Alberth> when you have a clear vision, it's not a feature request any more
12:38:11 <TrueBrain> Alberth: not always true; but it is a lot easier to plot them if they are valid or not
12:38:41 <TrueBrain> a vision could be to make ships a viable way of running your company in OpenTTD
12:38:50 <TrueBrain> tons of feature requests can be applied to that vision :)
12:38:55 <andythenorth_> now we have a monolithic product, with configurable framework tentacles all tbe way through it
12:38:58 <TrueBrain> it is just a lot more clear which fit the bill and not ;)
12:39:04 <andythenorth_> so many abstractions
12:39:05 <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: joy :D
12:39:27 <andythenorth_> the product is what customers actually need and pay for
12:39:31 <Alberth> you graduated for Java university andy :)
12:39:34 <TrueBrain> I always like things like: yeah, our product might be monolithic, but it can do anything we want!
12:39:38 <andythenorth_> shame it’s 5x too big
12:39:50 <andythenorth_> monolithic is fine
12:40:05 <TrueBrain> depends heavily on your market, I found out :)
12:40:14 <andythenorth_> alberth, worse, it’s Plone
12:40:43 <TrueBrain> well, no, it is not the market .. a product should work within a well defined domain
12:40:52 <TrueBrain> or any process, or any component
12:40:56 <TrueBrain> as long as that is the case, everything is fine
12:40:59 <andythenorth_> so we have a web app built in a heavyweight modular cms
12:41:01 <Alberth> hmm, somehow I am not sad I missed that andy :p
12:41:16 <TrueBrain> but what people tend to do with monoliths, is just to plug something from the left, all the way to the right, because the function was there anyway :P
12:41:19 <TrueBrain> there shit goes wrong :D
12:41:55 <Alberth> minimal effort to add a feature
12:42:17 <andythenorth_> anyway newgrf :p
12:42:53 <TrueBrain> right, cmake debug flags ... do we really still want debug level 1 till 3 ..
12:45:48 <Alberth> having a debug build (less optimization and keeping symbols) would be useful at least
12:46:17 <Alberth> getting debug output on loading is useful too (for figuring out why something doesn't show up in game)
12:46:17 <TrueBrain> yeah .. trying to figure out what our levels are exactly
12:46:26 <TrueBrain> level 0 = release, sure
12:46:31 <TrueBrain> level 1 = -g -D_DEBUG
12:46:36 <TrueBrain> level 2 = -fno-inline
12:46:56 <TrueBrain> CMake normally only has Debug and Release
12:47:28 <Alberth> the max level is perhaps also nice, but quite useless, as it continues spamming the output as the game runs
12:48:06 <Alberth> maybe useful for debugging game execution problems, don't know
12:48:21 <TrueBrain> owh, level 2 does a few more things on GCC online
12:48:25 <TrueBrain> -D_FORITFY_SOURCE=2
12:48:43 <Alberth> can't you give custom CXXFLAGS for cmake?
12:49:18 <TrueBrain> but I like to be standard
12:49:22 <TrueBrain> so if they offer Debug/Release
12:49:28 <TrueBrain> do we really want to add more of those flavours
12:49:30 <Alberth> so you can do just 1 debug level, and then a developer can tune that whatever they like
12:49:38 <TrueBrain> that is more my moral dilemma atm :D
12:50:13 <TrueBrain> what if we let them 'tune' that via the CMake way, as in: cmake -DCXX_COMPILER_FLAGS="-O0 -fno-inline" ..
12:50:20 <TrueBrain> (so don't make it an option, but something you can do yourself)
12:50:56 <Alberth> yeah, much simpler, and any developer can write a script with his favorite settings
12:51:29 <Alberth> enabling debug build is however messy in cmake, end-user documentation of cmake is pretty much non-existing
12:51:39 <TrueBrain> yeah, that will be in the README
12:51:50 <TrueBrain> but by default builds are always debug
12:51:54 <Alberth> clearly nobody is actually deploying cmake in his project :p
12:52:00 <TrueBrain> so it is mostly our CF that needs to know this :D
12:52:21 <TrueBrain> also wondering about profiling
12:52:36 <TrueBrain> tempted to say you can do that with cmake -DCXX_COMPILER_FLAGS="-p" yourself
12:52:37 <Alberth> in CI ? or as option?
12:53:06 <Alberth> just mention it in the docs would be fine imho
12:53:39 <TrueBrain> it saves a lot of code in CMakeLists.txt
12:53:43 <TrueBrain> so yeah, lets start there
12:53:47 <TrueBrain> and see what happens :D
12:54:01 <Alberth> at the very least you'd also need to consider what to profile etc, so it's not just "cmake profile" ; run
12:54:30 <TrueBrain> k .. 2 things left to tackle ... -DRANDOM_DEBUG, and LTO
12:54:37 <TrueBrain> I dont know what LTO is, so I have to look that up :)
12:54:49 <TrueBrain> RANDOM_DEBUG ... it is such an unusual thing to do ..
12:55:07 <Alberth> link time optimization
12:55:36 <Alberth> compile does a partial job, linking then combines everything and performs more optimization
12:56:05 <TrueBrain> well, mostly I am a bit confused why it is an option etc
12:56:20 <TrueBrain> but okay .. RANDOM_DEBUG is for me on the same level as debug levels and profiling, so I am going to put that in the README
12:56:30 <Alberth> wit the idea that linking has a better view of how functions are called
12:57:01 <Alberth> random debug in docs I fully agree
12:57:53 <Alberth> don't know what lto does for openttd, if it's significant, it might be nice to add it, or even make it standard for compilers that have it
12:57:55 <TrueBrain> so the LTO .. is that not on by default? I mean ..
12:58:24 <Alberth> not in gcc 5.4 at ubuntu, I found out last week :p
12:59:08 <TrueBrain> GCC only in current OpenTTD ..
12:59:18 <TrueBrain> -flto or -flto=jobserver
12:59:20 <Alberth> don't know what the current compiler (8.x) does
12:59:25 <TrueBrain> and -fwhole-program
13:00:33 <Alberth> yes, -flto enables it, -fwhole-program is for saying "this is the entire executable, do it"
13:00:38 <TrueBrain> and all CLFAGS are added to LDFLAGS if you enable lto
13:01:18 <Alberth> yeah, linking does compiling then too, so it needs the exact same flags etc
13:02:16 <Alberth> -fwhole-program isn't needed if you use gcc also for linking btw
13:03:39 <Alberth> If you don't add it to the build script I am not sure it's simple to manage, you need to set flags for both the linker and the compiler
13:04:36 <Alberth> on the other hand, likely someone has figured out how to convince cmake doing lto already?
13:04:51 <TrueBrain> that I am looking in now :)
13:04:57 <TrueBrain> for gcc .. possibly
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13:10:55 <TrueBrain> set_target_properties(openttd PROPERTIES INTERPROCEDURAL_OPTIMIZATION True)
13:11:03 <andythenorth> proper irc again
13:11:06 <TrueBrain> guess I could apply it on all targets .. but .. strgen .. who cares
13:11:32 <TrueBrain> c++ -flto -fno-fat-lto-objects
13:11:38 <TrueBrain> yeah, it works out-of-the-box, if you have CMake 3.9 or higher
13:11:44 <TrueBrain> otherwise .. it disables LTO :)
13:11:53 <TrueBrain> wow, linking takes a lot longer
13:12:14 <nielsm> just like it does in msvc release builds
13:12:35 <TrueBrain> should we only enable it for releases? Or also for debug?
13:13:28 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjvlz
13:14:07 <TrueBrain> even enables it for clang, which current OpenTTD doesn't :P
13:14:43 <TrueBrain> so I feel a "Remove: DOS support" incoming michi_cc :D
13:15:48 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjvl2
13:17:59 <michi_cc> Hmm, gcc seems to have a different interpretation of lock_guard
13:21:08 <TrueBrain> funny, CMake already does the -g stuff etc
13:21:38 <andythenorth> so what's the canonical source for OpenTTD docs?
13:22:42 <andythenorth> project top-level
13:22:51 <andythenorth> 'what is it?' etc
13:23:48 <andythenorth> to ask the question a different way
13:23:55 <andythenorth> which platforms are supported?
13:25:10 <andythenorth> what's the canonical way to compile?
13:27:18 <andythenorth> should bug reports be submitted like:
13:32:05 <Alberth> what is broken with NML templates? they seem to have limited use, and people resort to cpp or python
13:33:10 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjvlz
13:36:15 <andythenorth> Alberth: nml templates? ;O
13:36:43 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
13:37:00 <andythenorth> if we're talking about same concept...I'll find a link
13:37:56 <andythenorth> Alberth: they're solvely for realsprites
13:38:09 <andythenorth> they're a dedicated solution to one small problem
13:38:14 <Alberth> which is a totally useful spot for mentioning templates :p
13:38:31 <andythenorth> solvely / solely /s
13:39:25 <andythenorth> do you want me to explain their use case, or are they obvious?
13:39:50 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjvlz
13:39:51 <Alberth> well, it does text-replacement I think (judging from the explanation), so they would be applicable for more cases
13:40:15 <Alberth> or they don't do text replacement, in which case, yeah, limited use
13:40:43 <Alberth> I understand the sprite template case andy, no need to explain
13:40:53 <andythenorth> it's just a helper really
13:41:04 <Alberth> just wondering why nobody uses it more widely
13:41:46 <andythenorth> I remember yexo was curious about adding a template language
13:41:57 <andythenorth> but was on the fence about how best to do it
13:42:18 <andythenorth> are the current templates unvalidated?
13:42:30 <andythenorth> if I wanted to use them for general purpose text substitution, they'd work?
13:42:45 <Alberth> if they're just text replacements, I'd guess they are
13:42:49 * andythenorth assumed they'd have a linter to enforce that they're realsprites
13:45:13 * andythenorth sketching openttd.org bonfire + redesign
13:48:39 <andythenorth> so what is OpenTTD?
13:48:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> c++ -flto -fno-fat-lto-objects <-- does that still count as "english"? :p
13:48:53 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjvlz
13:49:08 <andythenorth> ^^^ let's assume everyone who answers is probably wrong, but tell me anyway
13:49:53 <Alberth> indeed, simple example fails with template, so it might be about that one use case only
13:49:55 <michi_cc> Sorry about that update spam, but apparently some things work differently depending on if gcc is doing strict C++11 or C++11 and later.
13:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> "OpenTTD is a fan-made remake of the classic 90's game 'Transport Tycoon Deluxe'"
13:50:25 * andythenorth copy-pastes to a file
13:50:59 <michi_cc> "OpenTTD is supposed to be a fun game for all ages"
13:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause> optionally include: [originally developed by Chris Sawyer] [bringing it to modern computers] [adding more and more features]
13:52:43 <andythenorth> what are the best bits of OpenTTD?
13:52:45 <Eddi|zuHause> how elaborate do you want it to be?
13:53:05 <andythenorth> I'm *not* trying to do 'marketing' to bring more players into the game
13:53:08 <andythenorth> I don't care aboiut that
13:53:20 <andythenorth> I just want the project docs / website to feel well crafted
13:54:07 <andythenorth> we incidentally have one of the most successful open source games, AIUI
13:54:26 <Eddi|zuHause> * works on modern computers * bigger maps, more vehicles * mod support (NewGRF, Scripts, AIs...) * online multiplayer
13:55:30 <andythenorth> eh I did a pretty objective google search 'best open source games'
13:55:47 <andythenorth> according to unknown metrics ;P
13:56:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "the 8 must-play-games: [list of 5 entries]"
14:05:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's raining
14:06:05 <andythenorth> pretty nice here
14:06:37 <andythenorth> there is a whole world outside of tt-forums griping :P
14:06:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, that it's still being actively developed after over a decade is a really unique trait in the software world
14:07:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's called a filter bubble
14:07:31 <peter1138> TrueBrain, I compile with -Werror, it good.
14:08:00 <TrueBrain> sadly, we have some warnings on some targets
14:08:03 <TrueBrain> so the CI won't like that :P
14:08:34 <TrueBrain> but okay .. port first, improve later :)
14:09:13 *** criador15 has joined #openttd
14:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: really, i'd rather have a "if TARGET disable warning X" in the code
14:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> near where the warning is...
14:09:48 <TrueBrain> near -Wall? Sounds wrong :P
14:09:54 <TrueBrain> either way, port first, improve later :)
14:10:10 <criador15> talking about ottd warning messages?
14:10:35 <TrueBrain> so we need nforenum and grfcodec for creating openttd.grf
14:11:21 <criador15> i had trouble trying to make a info dialog apear, i just need to use the GSGoal.question() method to make one apear?(using ottd 1.8.0 in GS files)
14:12:55 <Eddi|zuHause> can't we remove openttd.grf from the repo, and package it into the installer separately, maybe with opengfx and some selected AIs as well?
14:13:55 <Eddi|zuHause> like, tutorial and stuff
14:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> also, if not found, download openttd.grf from bananas (but hide it from normal downloading)
14:15:57 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd
14:18:22 <TrueBrain> -- Detecting nforenum
14:18:22 <TrueBrain> -- Detecting nforenum - found
14:18:22 <TrueBrain> -- Detecting grfcodec
14:18:22 <TrueBrain> -- Detecting grfcodec - found
14:19:20 *** criador15 has joined #openttd
14:19:37 <criador15> alberth you know hot to display dialogs via gs?
14:20:42 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjvlz
14:23:03 <Alberth> no, I only post goals and news
14:31:46 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjv8Y
14:32:44 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjvlz
14:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> /usr/include/c++/7/condition_variable:197:55: error: request for member ‘unlock’ in ‘__lk’, which is of pointer type ‘std::recursive_mutex*’ (maybe you meant to use ‘->’ ?)
14:52:18 <glx> michi_cc: in unix.cpp, move the last #endif above the function
14:52:46 *** criador15 has joined #openttd
14:53:56 <criador15> planetmaker, the game suport some sort of ´display a dialog with string´ system? and to read player input?
14:54:01 <glx> and that's why we really should try to use comments for #endif ;)
14:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: have you looked at what the tutorial does?
14:55:09 <criador15> it dont run well here
14:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: it works as both a game tutorial, and a game script tutorial
14:55:34 <criador15> (the dialog in question dont apeared when i tested)
14:55:43 <glx> I think there's a query function
14:58:56 <criador15> ok, so if i want to make a ´choose a vehicle´ system, it will be using next,previous and ok, and delete update and create the window, right?
15:01:24 <nielsm> that will end up as a bad user experience
15:01:56 <criador15> i know, and you know how to improve that?
15:02:00 <nielsm> GS does not really support any good kind of list selection yet
15:02:32 <criador15> maybe the developer can add that on 1.9.1
15:03:08 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: no, any development now will have to wait until 1.10
15:03:18 <nielsm> make a story page listing the options and tell the player to put a sign with a specific text/number to select something
15:04:07 <nielsm> signs are basically the only way for a player to send something to GS, that isn't a question box
15:04:31 <criador15> that should work well
15:05:04 <criador15> and if the user tries to troll my make, i can make all vehicle crash :D
15:05:26 <nielsm> I'm quite sure GS does not have that kind of powers
15:05:50 <criador15> thanks for the info
15:06:06 <glx> GS can give money, and probably take it too
15:06:55 <criador15> where is that function? GSCompany?
15:07:42 <criador15> loan is borrow or pay, and bank ballance is the disponible cash in game?
15:08:21 <glx> bank balance is the really available money
15:10:58 <glx> ahah a GS can start and stop vehicles
15:11:45 <glx> but a GS doing silly things will probably be hated :)
15:12:37 <criador15> deppends of the silly things
15:12:42 <glx> like get the list of road vehicles, check if a vehicle is on railroad crossing and stop it there :)
15:13:08 <criador15> then set bank ballance to 0 when the player try to break the GS
15:14:48 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjvlz
15:16:25 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: I have seen a lot more interesting errors during development. Errors with 15 lines of template nonsense are so fun, don't you think? :p
15:16:55 <glx> well templates are always fun
15:17:29 <glx> then you have YAPF using templated templates ;)
15:17:56 <andythenorth> until you're templating templates, you're not really playing
15:18:12 <criador15> have you tried to automated templates?
15:19:39 <andythenorth> templating templates
15:19:59 <andythenorth> including string replacement, where the string is also templated
15:20:21 <glx> hey it's worse, you do it in python ;)
15:21:19 <andythenorth> then nmlc turns it back into python
15:21:23 <andythenorth> then writes it out as grf
15:21:44 <andythenorth> so I use python to template an ingest format for a python programme
15:25:27 <michi_cc> Yeah, green checkmark :)
15:27:00 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: gratz! That is .. not bad :D
15:29:19 <LordAro> michi_cc: only 15 lines of errors? those are rookie numbers
15:29:33 <michi_cc> No, 15 lines for one error.
15:29:59 <LordAro> ah yes, that sounds better :)
15:36:26 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
15:37:25 <peter1138> sausage and blackpudding,eh?
15:37:42 <LordAro> coffee was decidedly underwhelming though
15:38:03 <peter1138> i didn't bother stopped for elevenses
15:38:44 <peter1138> I basically wanted to get home early so I could fix this multi-tile dock bug
15:39:25 <peter1138> I ruined that by popping out to Tesco when I got home, but never mind.
15:42:55 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjv8b
15:45:14 <peter1138> Although it's from a can. But a 6 pack for £2.60 was a reduction difficult to refuse.
15:49:24 <Samu> patch of exile! the game that patches every day
15:49:37 <TrueBrain> except .. it doesn't
15:49:43 <peter1138> Running ai/regression/tst_regression... passed!
15:49:45 <peter1138> That's always nice.
15:50:05 <peter1138> Hmm, now to split this patch up.
15:50:11 <peter1138> Becuase it'll be too big now :/
15:50:42 <TrueBrain> that's .. what she said?
15:52:51 <peter1138> ShipAI still makes a mess...
15:55:36 <Samu> always thinking i can tank everything
15:56:06 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjv4v
15:56:21 <peter1138> Also, grey ship hiding underneath the helipad.
15:56:32 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjv4f
15:57:51 <peter1138> ShipAI is very... deterministic.
15:58:07 <peter1138> It'll start off with each instance building the same routes.
15:58:17 <glx> yeah, I can't build here ? let's try 2 tiles away
16:00:12 <peter1138> Green has a bit of a problem here...
16:00:59 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
16:01:02 <glx> and pink building 2 docks
16:01:15 <peter1138> The sign is above the land part.
16:01:39 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjvlz
16:02:24 <peter1138> Samu, I suspect something like that may be prudent.
16:03:00 <Samu> green was there first, though
16:03:17 <peter1138> Of course, when AIs can be single-tile docks, this problem won't exist.
16:03:41 <TrueBrain> pfew, generating the grf files is nasty .. mainly as those 2 files are inside the source folder, not the binary .. hmm
16:04:10 <glx> set working dir in source ?
16:04:14 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjvlz
16:04:21 <TrueBrain> it needs a temporary file in the same folder
16:04:27 <TrueBrain> as grfcodec is a shitty tool (sorry, but it is)
16:04:42 <glx> copy source files to binary dir then
16:04:50 <TrueBrain> which is very annoying to do
16:05:07 <TrueBrain> but there the complexity is coming in ;)
16:05:22 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading https://git.io/fjv4q
16:05:33 <glx> ah and mingw is broken now :)
16:05:48 <TrueBrain> I love how even our devs are this verbose
16:06:45 <TrueBrain> ah; well, yeah, I will throw a if(WIN32) around it
16:06:48 <TrueBrain> I have some more fixes in the pipeline
16:06:51 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fjv4m
16:06:58 <TrueBrain> too late, I guess :P
16:07:32 <glx> just pointing to my branch
16:08:49 <glx> configure_file() is nice but some times you end up with generated file being older that source file
16:09:13 <TrueBrain> what is your clock doing over there?!
16:09:15 <glx> and not recreated because nothing changed
16:09:29 <LordAro> so it doesn't matter?
16:09:53 <glx> well it redo the generation step for nothing
16:10:21 <TrueBrain> so you save an unchanged file?
16:10:28 <TrueBrain> this makes little sense glx, sorry :D
16:10:48 <glx> configure_file() writes the file only if it's different
16:11:19 <glx> but source, or script used to generated can be newer
16:11:53 <glx> and still produce the same output so the generated file is untouched
16:12:35 <peter1138> Bloody vim, why does it fuck up my tabs? :(
16:12:51 <TrueBrain> I have the same issue with VisualStudioCode in 1 file ..
16:13:09 <glx> usually I solve that with a make clean
16:13:27 <TrueBrain> glx: still not sure what you mean, but I m sure Iwill find out or something :)
16:13:44 <LordAro> i get what glx means, i'm just not sure why it's an issue :p
16:14:02 <glx> it's not an issue, it's just annoying
16:15:07 <glx> because regenerating hpp.sq for nothing is not fast
16:15:34 <glx> especially when the result is discarded because unmodified
16:17:05 <glx> but if the files are touched when unmodified it would be worse because that would mean recompiling
16:17:12 <TrueBrain> okay ... next on the agenda ... write CMake that handles #include in a file .. lol ..
16:19:56 <glx> hmm the scripts could OUTPUT a timestamp file and BYPRODUCTS the real output
16:22:30 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest3506
16:24:14 <glx> I'll try that for basesets
16:25:34 <peter1138> "Since you are re-building the game" uhhh...
16:25:34 <TrueBrain> "Unknown NFO file version: 1. Attempting to parse as version 4."
16:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: means you have an invalid grf header? (the // part at the beginning)
16:26:39 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah .. I added my own header on top
16:26:43 <TrueBrain> but that seems to completely confuse everything
16:26:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it looks like a comment, but isn't :p
16:27:04 <TrueBrain> "A portion of sprite 0 could not be processed."
16:27:04 <peter1138> Ok, shall I consider... newgrf dock spec?
16:27:09 <TrueBrain> okay ... is that bad? is that good?
16:27:19 <TrueBrain> does that always happen?
16:28:48 <TrueBrain> I love how it does not give details :(
16:29:07 <nielsm> peter1138: if it could allow for "level" docks for canals it might be worthwhile
16:29:17 <nielsm> but I'm not sure how to go about doing it
16:29:39 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: nforenum?
16:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it puts the details into the file
16:29:55 <nielsm> peter1138: do your changes already allow more than one dock in a station?
16:30:39 <peter1138> nielsm, newgrf docks is the plan for any more than the default docks.
16:30:49 <Eddi|zuHause> bah, these rivers look all wrong :/
16:30:57 <peter1138> nielsm, by "consider" I mean "consider what I need to do" rather than "should I do it" :)
16:31:04 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: the NFO is HUGE .. :P
16:31:29 <TrueBrain> how do I find out more?
16:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: which grf?
16:31:38 <peter1138> nielsm, my changes also allow docks to be built from just a single tile, or indeed, lots of tiles.
16:31:42 <TrueBrain> both openttd.grf as orig_extra.grf
16:31:48 <peter1138> nielsm, just you can't build that way yet :)
16:34:13 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: about 6k lines?
16:35:01 <nielsm> peter1138: my thought is making a tilelayout with an "anchor" tile (which one you point to with the mouse), having elevation and water-ness requirements on each tile in the layout, and water tiles in the layout can be marked as docking positions
16:35:07 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i just "cat *.nfo | wc -l"
16:35:16 <nielsm> and each tile participating in the layout must have all four rotations available
16:35:39 <nielsm> I guess you may need to manually select rotation for some layouts?
16:36:05 <TrueBrain> hmm .. it really is my cmake works that only throws this error
16:36:08 <TrueBrain> lets figure out why ..
16:36:12 <peter1138> Seems overcomplicated.
16:36:28 <peter1138> Docking positions are automatic, they are adjacent to any dock tile.
16:36:28 <Eddi|zuHause> where is even the makefile for the extra_grf?
16:37:58 <TrueBrain> lol .. found the issue :D
16:38:09 <TrueBrain> a ; in CMake is next-entry-in-list
16:38:11 <TrueBrain> we have a ; in text
16:38:13 <TrueBrain> so it becomes 2 lists :D
16:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like you need escapes :p
16:39:19 <TrueBrain> string(REPLACE ";" "\\;" NFO_LINES "${NFO_LINES}")
16:39:21 <TrueBrain> exactly what I did :P
16:39:32 <TrueBrain> yeah, now it works \o/
16:39:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so what is the difference between openttd and orig_extra?
16:40:15 <TrueBrain> I was wondering the same, and I am figure that out :)
16:40:24 <peter1138> Hmm, new-object orientation is... odd?
16:40:46 <peter1138> Not sure if it's random or based on cursor position.
16:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> is there anything in this game that is not... odd? :p
16:41:19 <TrueBrain> we are not really good in .... keeping things tight and clean :)
16:41:49 <peter1138> Pretty sure it's random, but then that would be down to the set I'm using faking orientation.
16:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably it
16:42:27 <Eddi|zuHause> they go like "well, you can place it again if it's the wrong one"
16:43:55 <TrueBrain> for example, did you know in extra_grf is a folder rivers, that is copied in the main folder on compiling?
16:44:02 <TrueBrain> so if you name two files the same in 2 folders
16:44:06 <TrueBrain> you won't notice that it doesnt work
16:44:24 <TrueBrain> libpng warning: iCCP: known incorrect sRGB profile
16:44:52 <peter1138> Happens in master :P
16:44:54 <andythenorth> oh yeah that's standard
16:45:10 <andythenorth> you can fix it by batch processing them with photoshop
16:45:14 <TrueBrain> and I guess that is the end of it? We simply dont care? :P
16:45:16 <andythenorth> but sometimes something puts them back
16:45:30 <peter1138> I care but not enough to get around to fixing it.
16:45:31 <andythenorth> I gave up fixing it
16:45:38 <andythenorth> because it tends to recur
16:45:41 <peter1138> Cos when I do that I end up trying to split it all up as well.
16:45:53 <TrueBrain> so call out the person who reintroduces it :P
16:46:08 <TrueBrain> anyway, orig_extra and openttd share almost no files .. except for 3 pngs :D
16:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that's been there literally for years, nobody cared :p
16:46:56 <TrueBrain> so I now have 2 folders, one for each grf
16:47:00 <andythenorth> it's probably upstream in libpng
16:47:00 <TrueBrain> but .. 3 files that are annoying :D
16:47:16 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it sounds like the pngs are wrong, and libpng informs us about it
16:47:21 <TrueBrain> but that might be my interpertation :D
16:47:22 <peter1138> nielsm, newobjects gui has everything needed, i think.
16:47:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but... we disregard the sRGB profile anyway?
16:48:03 <andythenorth> yeah but libpng cares
16:48:13 <peter1138> It's 8 bpp, I'm not sure why sRGB profiles are involved.
16:48:15 <andythenorth> if these are paletted 8bpp
16:48:25 <andythenorth> faster typing :P
16:48:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what an sRGB profile even does
16:49:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm assuming it's for colour correction?
16:49:24 <andythenorth> seems that an accepted solution is
16:49:32 <andythenorth> "Use pngcrush to remove the incorrect sRGB profile from the png file:"
16:49:47 <andythenorth> so introduce an additional dependency to fix the bad input
16:50:24 <TrueBrain> so I guess sometimes someone fixes a png, doesnt run pngcrush, and tada?
16:50:30 <TrueBrain> (as it seems to be only an issue for 1 or 2 PNGs)
16:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> put a check in the pre-commit hook?
16:50:55 <peter1138> Well, not all image editors message with sRGB unnecessarily.
16:50:55 <andythenorth> it seems that it was common to set the whitepoint to D50 where D65 is expected
16:51:10 <andythenorth> this value is baked into some bitmap editor exports
16:51:16 <andythenorth> according to google :P
16:51:27 <andythenorth> so it will just keep on recurring
16:51:39 <andythenorth> we drop grfcodec?
16:51:47 <andythenorth> I am not even trolling
16:51:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you sound like planetmaker now
16:52:01 <andythenorth> it's a fucking disaster having two ways to make newgrfs
16:52:10 <andythenorth> one is slow and unmaintained
16:52:16 <andythenorth> the other is fast and doesn't need maintained
16:52:24 <andythenorth> but nobody can use it
16:52:41 <peter1138> People use both, stop being stupid/.
16:52:59 <andythenorth> LordAro made a non-trolling suggestion yesterday, have OpenTTD read nml or similar
16:53:05 <peter1138> There's GRFMaker as well.
16:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "use the right tool for the job" implies there being more than one tool
16:53:16 <peter1138> andythenorth, that wasn't a serious suggesting.
16:53:22 <andythenorth> yes it also implies there are two jobs Eddi|zuHause
16:53:32 <andythenorth> but the job is making a newgrf
16:53:40 <Eddi|zuHause> oh there are definitely more than two jobs
16:54:11 <andythenorth> ok so suppress the libpng warning in stdout
16:54:33 <andythenorth> or add a dependency to strip the iCCP chunk from the PNG image
16:54:49 <andythenorth> or tell every contributor which bitmap editors are officially permitted
16:55:00 <Eddi|zuHause> can't we pass an option to libpng?
16:55:06 <andythenorth> then we can move on and finish cmake :P
16:55:56 <peter1138> NewObject sound effects are a bit mad...
16:56:15 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
16:56:25 <andythenorth> ok the solution I've found so far is to recompile libpng
16:56:31 <peter1138> Oh, no, that's just 6music.
16:56:32 <TrueBrain> glx: if you have nforenum/grfcodec installed, ^^ would be a nice candidate to test if it also works for you :D
16:56:49 <andythenorth> or don't use libpng 1.6+
16:56:59 <andythenorth> yeah one of the solutions is downgrade
16:58:06 <glx> hmm I may have an old grfcodec version somewhere not in the path
16:58:28 <andythenorth> is imagemagick generally available?
16:58:31 <TrueBrain> hmm .. you have to manually generate it now, it seems .. let me see if I can fix that ..
16:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause> great. when i type "libpng" into google, it autocompletes that to "libpng warning iccp known incorrect srgb profile"
16:59:55 <andythenorth> it's a really common issue
17:00:06 <andythenorth> there are many many proposed solutions
17:00:15 <andythenorth> peter1138: I have ships waiting on 3 tiles :)
17:02:20 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
17:03:05 <andythenorth> the easiest libpng solution is to ignore it
17:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so we just use pngcrush on the files, commit them, and then make the CI fail on people reintroducing the warning
17:03:49 <TrueBrain> CI is no longer picking up my branch .. not sure why not :D
17:03:49 <peter1138> if (IsDockingTile(tile)) return CMD_ERROR;
17:04:01 <peter1138> That stops AIs block each other badly.
17:04:02 <TrueBrain> possibly the 100+ commits ...
17:04:13 <andythenorth> it's pretty discouraging to casual commits
17:04:16 <andythenorth> to get a CI fail
17:04:31 <peter1138> Stops your placing docks next to each other, though.
17:04:35 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: how is 100 commits a lot?
17:04:40 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: in 1 PR? :D
17:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i can't imagine nobody ever exceeded that number :p
17:05:16 <peter1138> Some of the buoys this ShipAI builds are... very coast-hugging.
17:05:44 <TrueBrain> now one of the bigger steps to go .... bundles
17:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i dunno what it does with the commits, but i can't imagine any number <1000000 causing any significant problems
17:06:33 <pnda> With what command is the nmlc.exe file generated?
17:07:16 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: i don't know why we even make such a thing... just tell people to install python...
17:07:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's definitely one answer :P
17:07:38 <andythenorth> but we do make such a thing
17:07:50 <andythenorth> and I have NFI how nmlc.exe is used
17:07:52 <andythenorth> is it documented?
17:07:52 <pnda> But for the people who just want to have a .exe. What command is it?
17:08:11 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: tried "make"? :)
17:08:47 <pnda> I only tried setup.py build
17:08:52 <andythenorth> yeah I can't find any docs on nmlc.exe
17:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it runs "/usr/bin/env python3 setup.py build_ext --inplace"
17:09:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and then fails because i have no Python.h
17:10:03 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
17:10:05 <pnda> That command just creates a .pyd file for me
17:10:05 <andythenorth> do you just double click it pnda ?
17:10:14 <TrueBrain> possibly that kills your branch .. I suggest you cherry-pick it
17:11:23 <andythenorth> we need a forest fire
17:11:28 <andythenorth> to allow some new growth
17:12:09 <pnda> Uhm that forum post only explains how to use nmlc, to compile nml to a grf.
17:12:22 <pnda> And with this .pyd file which is generated, can I do anything with that?
17:12:40 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: it's nice that README says you are inactive, so free from all responsibility :D
17:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't find any info on the .exe
17:13:11 <TrueBrain> lets keep it that way andythenorth :)
17:13:30 <andythenorth> how many pages listing developers do we need? o_O
17:13:49 <andythenorth> "99" would be enough
17:14:17 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
17:14:29 <TrueBrain> I really need to start squashing this branch ... :D
17:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i find absolutely no info on the .exe file
17:14:59 <andythenorth> I am really glad to mostly escape being in the contributor lists :D
17:15:05 <andythenorth> I would hate to be listed
17:15:30 <TrueBrain> so many easy jokes to make here ... :D <3
17:15:32 <andythenorth> ha ha LordAro is a contributor not a developer
17:16:08 <andythenorth> if anybody else wants to identify stupidity in the website / GH / wiki / other public docs
17:16:16 <andythenorth> I am actually doing 'measure twice, cut once'
17:16:20 <andythenorth> not just planning a bonfire
17:16:40 <andythenorth> no, burn nearly everything
17:16:47 <andythenorth> and put the best bits behind the shed for later
17:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: "wine 'C:\Python27\pythonw.exe' 'C:\Python27\Scripts\cxfreeze' nmlc"
17:17:49 <andythenorth> who's our audience
17:17:53 <andythenorth> more people using a binary
17:17:58 <andythenorth> or more people compiling?
17:18:27 <peter1138> Everything is either/or, black/white with you.
17:18:28 <pnda> Eddi|zuHause: Will that create a .exe?
17:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: i think so
17:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure why it's python27
17:18:56 <TrueBrain> okay, LTO / IPO is now off for debug builds .. that takes way too long to be practical ..
17:19:00 <andythenorth> nmlc is python3 for a long time
17:19:04 <pnda> Python27 isn't supported anymore
17:19:06 <andythenorth> peter1138: that's a bit black and white :P
17:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's cxfreeze, not nmlc
17:19:33 <peter1138> Pretty sure this way lies danger...
17:19:33 <andythenorth> so yeah, if I write / rewrite a 'getting started' section
17:19:38 <andythenorth> does that say 'first compile'
17:19:45 <andythenorth> like, who's the audience?
17:19:51 <TrueBrain> make two: developers and players
17:20:06 <peter1138> First explain what the fuck it is.
17:20:24 <peter1138> Too many shitty open source projects start with "this is how you compile this thing which you don't know what it actually does"
17:20:34 <andythenorth> ok you gave the answers I wanted :P
17:21:22 <glx> TrueBrain: I know how to easily rebase my branches now, so it's not a problem
17:21:26 <TrueBrain> right .. so close, I can almost taste it :) (cmake branch)
17:21:28 <pnda> I am also amazed that nmlc is currently working from any directory, but I don't have it installed it to oPATH.
17:21:35 <SpComb> git reset --soft master && git commit -am "do stuff"
17:22:16 <TrueBrain> owh, right, and I should test ICC
17:22:22 <glx> git rebase -i --onto <source branch> HEAD~XXX where HEAD~XXX is my commits
17:22:27 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: maybe it's a different version that is in your path?
17:22:55 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: 3.6 and 3.7 should not be under develop, tbh
17:22:59 <pnda> No there's nothing in PATH
17:23:11 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: yeah, I just don't want a 4th heading, 3 is nice
17:23:20 <andythenorth> 2. probably needs 'multiplayer'
17:23:25 <pnda> There's only a reference to Python37
17:23:26 <TrueBrain> so 3.6 under 1, and 3.7 under 2? :D
17:23:45 *** criador15 has joined #openttd
17:24:24 <criador15> i am trying to make ´local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME);´ use a string as param, right?
17:24:56 <criador15> in english.txt its write this : ´STR_INVALID_NAME :{YELLOW}{STRING}´
17:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there should be a "OH NO!!!" section in 1. which should cover 3.6
17:25:17 <criador15> how i set the param?
17:25:36 <pnda> criador15: is this for NML?
17:25:46 <criador15> this dont worked wekl placa.SetParam(1,"nome não é nulo!"); invalid.AddParam(1);
17:26:38 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: AddParam(placa)?
17:27:36 <criador15> invalid.SetParam(1,"nome não é nulo!"); invalid.AddParam(1); stil dont output the correct text
17:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> well, half of the words in there didn't make any sense, so i just randomly guessed something
17:28:40 <andythenorth> not too worried what goes where yet, but
17:28:59 <andythenorth> I figure both openttd.org and GH should point to one place that covers most of this easily
17:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: the parameter to AddParam should definitely not be "1"
17:29:11 <andythenorth> oh I missed development goals out
17:29:22 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: also, you probably don't need both SetParam and AddParam at the same time
17:29:38 <criador15> eddi|zuHause should it contain the String that will output?
17:30:23 <criador15> this dont work either ´local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME); invalid.AddParam("nome não é nulo!");´
17:30:32 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I would consider multiplayer part of the core game tbh
17:31:03 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: should probably be another GSText.STR_WHATEVER?
17:31:06 <criador15> its output a (instance )
17:31:18 <andythenorth> TrueBrain is MP even a specific topic? I added it because server listing etc, not sure
17:31:34 <TrueBrain> might be nice to at least mention, yeah
17:31:56 <andythenorth> peter1138: unrelated I tried to make a RiscOS emulator work earlier :P
17:32:03 <andythenorth> yeah, bad project websites
17:33:32 <criador15> still output instance, thats strange
17:34:48 <criador15> that way? :´local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME); invalid.AddParam(GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME);´
17:35:24 <criador15> in english.txt is like: ´STR_INVALID_NAME :{YELLOW}{STRING} STR_NOT_NULL_NAME :Name is not null!´
17:36:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah something like that
17:36:49 <Eddi|zuHause> also "GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME, GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME)" might work
17:37:50 <peter1138> More JGR NewGRF specs... Hmm.
17:38:31 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: then your problem is probably elsewhere
17:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: how do you output it?
17:38:55 <criador15> GSLog.Info("is "+invalid);
17:39:47 <criador15> output: is (instance: XxXXXXXX)
17:39:54 <pnda> Uh so I have this: handle = open(file, "w") handle.write(file2)
17:40:01 <pnda> But this doesn't write anything to that file
17:40:24 <criador15> (did you flush or close?)
17:40:24 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: well, "invalid" is not a string in the squirrel sense
17:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: it's a description how openttd should assemble the display string
17:40:38 <criador15> invalid is the local var
17:40:50 <criador15> local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME, GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME);
17:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the local var is not of "string" type
17:40:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it's of "GSText" type
17:41:02 <Eddi|zuHause> can't just print it
17:42:20 <criador15> there is a way to make StringID return the string text?
17:42:38 <criador15> now i understand, it returns the memory addres
17:42:58 <glx> GSText is not for logging I think
17:43:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a "GetDecodedText" but it doesn't seem that is exposed to the script api
17:44:40 <glx> GSText is for functions expecting a Text (there it can be GSText, raw string or null)
17:45:00 <criador15> GSLog.Info("is "+GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME); returns ´´is 13´
17:45:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because string-IDs are numbers
17:45:25 <andythenorth> who is README.md for ?
17:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: broad audience
17:46:09 <criador15> ok, i have to exit, later i came back, thanks for the help
17:46:12 <andythenorth> is it for contributors arriving at our github?
17:46:12 <glx> for logging use raw strings, logging is usually for debug only
17:46:21 <andythenorth> or is it the manual that is distributed with binaries?
17:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: GSText is for things you want to tell the user, like in a window
17:47:19 <Alberth> for people arriving at the project and no idea what it's about; it's printed at the front-page of the project
17:47:42 <andythenorth> the binary bundles ship with README.md?
17:48:07 <Alberth> obviously, nothing stops you from inserting arbitrary text there :)
17:48:13 <andythenorth> can operating systems open .md?
17:48:17 <andythenorth> generally I think they can't
17:48:37 <andythenorth> yes but not a widely known format
17:48:44 <andythenorth> in my limited experience
17:48:51 <nielsm> random users won't know what to do
17:49:07 <glx> then OS ask what software you want to use to open it
17:49:10 <Alberth> yes, some windows will refuse to open it
17:49:17 <andythenorth> afaik macOS has no clue
17:49:35 <nielsm> should something be used to translate it to html for distro?
17:49:42 <nielsm> or rename it to txt in the distro?
17:49:43 <Alberth> clearly, it's not an apple format :p
17:49:45 <Eddi|zuHause> just call it .txt and have it be secretly a .md file
17:50:08 <andythenorth> in FIRS etc, I think I markdown render my readmes to .txt
17:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno why we need .md files
17:50:33 <glx> grr compile faster, you stupid mingw, I have tests to do
17:51:14 <andythenorth> yeah typically I dump down to .txt in the compile
17:51:17 <andythenorth> docs are generated
17:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i put -j6 somewhere so i don't forget it every time
17:52:02 <glx> but then it mixes target lines
17:52:12 <andythenorth> "2.2) Reporting desyncs" is ahead of "4.0) Installing and running OpenTTD"
17:52:38 <glx> would be too much for my 6 cores :)
17:52:44 <andythenorth> I only have 4 :P
17:52:50 <andythenorth> it's not science, I just like 13
17:53:43 <TrueBrain> "$<AND:$<NOT:$<CONFIG:Debug>>,$<NOT:$<BOOL:${OPTION_USE_ASSERTS}>>>"
17:53:46 <TrueBrain> do you understand? :D
17:53:55 <Alberth> installing is generally too much near the front, in my experience
17:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i love programs where i run "program -?" and they don't tell me what the program does
17:54:31 <Alberth> you must love git then :p
17:55:03 <Alberth> usually you just get a list of options, no explanation at all
17:55:10 <glx> hehe generator expressions
17:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so i have "export MAKEFLAGS=-j6" in ~/.bashrc
17:55:20 <andythenorth> peter1138: do you have a PR for station catchments? o_O
17:55:28 <TrueBrain> solves that on a stable release we have to make a diff .. now I can just do: cmake .. -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release -DOPTION_USE_ASSERTS=NO
17:55:31 <TrueBrain> and it makes a stable release :)
17:55:33 <glx> TrueBrain: that one is not too hard
17:56:45 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
17:56:50 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i love that it's not only reverse polish notation, but also uses brackets :p
17:56:54 <TrueBrain> sadly does mean I have to learn the azure-pipeline scripts the difference, but okay :)
17:57:12 <TrueBrain> I should make it OR, don't I ?
17:57:24 <TrueBrain> set(IS_STABLE_RELEASE "$<OR:$<CONFIG:Debug>,$<BOOL:${OPTION_USE_ASSERTS}>>")
17:57:27 <TrueBrain> should be the same ...
17:57:29 <Eddi|zuHause> or is it nonreverse polish notation?
17:57:44 <TrueBrain> what-ever, stupid booleans
17:57:50 <andythenorth> so who's going to teach the bundle to render README.md to .txt?
17:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> one is "AB+" and the other "+AB"
17:57:56 <andythenorth> should I file an issue? :P
17:58:05 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: if the md is not readable as txt, you are doing it wrong
17:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of "A+B" for normal people
17:58:27 <andythenorth> the convention is readme.txt and has been for like 30 years at least
17:58:34 <andythenorth> so we're doing it wrong :P
17:58:37 <TrueBrain> euh .. welcome to 2019?
17:58:44 <andythenorth> welcome to 'my os can't open .md'
17:58:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: by "render" you mean "rename"
17:58:49 <TrueBrain> just because something has been done for N years, does that really mean you have to do it for M more?
17:58:53 <TrueBrain> that is one silly reasoning
17:59:10 <TrueBrain> it is your OS that is to blame :)
17:59:13 <andythenorth> .md is a source format, not a consumption format
17:59:20 <andythenorth> it's not for humans to read
17:59:35 <TrueBrain> that is the whole point of that language
17:59:38 <nielsm> one of the design goals for markdown is to be readable in the source form
17:59:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that attitude is why your code is so unreadable
18:00:00 <TrueBrain> "Markdown syntax is designed to be readable and unobtrusive"
18:00:23 <andythenorth> honestly it's not readable to me
18:00:30 <andythenorth> it's full of computer shit
18:00:52 <andythenorth> the point of readme.txt is to help Bob and Alice
18:00:54 <Xaroth> It's less computery than rst :P
18:00:54 <TrueBrain> I am not sure you are doing it right ;)
18:01:07 <TrueBrain> our old readme.txt had similar constructs to define layout
18:01:29 <andythenorth> that doesn't make it right
18:01:42 <TrueBrain> I am honestly worried if our current README.md cannot be read by Bob or Alice
18:01:46 <TrueBrain> even my mom can understand this
18:01:54 <TrueBrain> (OWH NO HE DIDNT :P)
18:02:05 <TrueBrain> I rarely fully disagree with you andythenorth; but this is one :)
18:02:15 <TrueBrain> finally, there is something! :D
18:02:25 <andythenorth> oh FFS, now I have to make my Windows VM work
18:02:33 <andythenorth> just to see what MS do with .md
18:02:48 <TrueBrain> who knows; doesn't really matter tbh :)
18:02:56 <TrueBrain> there are 2 ways the 99% will read the README.md
18:03:11 <andythenorth> expand your argument TB :P
18:03:14 <Xaroth> Just open the .md file with notepad?
18:03:29 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: uhm, 99% won't ever see the README either in .txt or .md :p
18:03:31 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I WAS TYPING, ffs :P
18:03:45 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I was very careful in what I wrote ;)
18:03:54 <andythenorth> ouch windows doesn't understand my hi-dpi screen?
18:03:55 <pnda> I'd suggest editing the .md file with something like VS Code, because that's got a integrated support for it. Or if you want to view it directly: dillinger.io
18:03:58 <andythenorth> everything is teeeeny
18:03:59 <Alberth> The only weird thing in that file are the section numbers, I think
18:04:16 <TrueBrain> Alberth: yeah .. that looks really weird
18:04:20 <TrueBrain> and a ToC is also .. not normal
18:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: even windows 3.1 had a DPI setting
18:04:43 <TrueBrain> anyway, I would consider it highly unlikely someone is going to open the README.md from the bundle itself
18:04:48 <TrueBrain> Windows users install via the .exe
18:04:56 <TrueBrain> Mac run it via the dmg
18:04:59 <pnda> For the download bundle: .txt
18:05:03 <TrueBrain> both won't show the README.md via folder
18:05:05 <pnda> For the github repo: .md
18:05:12 <Xaroth> To be fair, OpenTTD's README.md has a much nicer layout than most project README.md's that you find on github
18:05:22 <TrueBrain> so creating a .txt out of the .md is serving ... 0.01% of our userbase? :P
18:05:27 <TrueBrain> not worth the effort, in my opinion :)
18:05:47 <Alberth> you might as well render to pdf then
18:05:56 <TrueBrain> PDF would be a better one, yes
18:06:15 <TrueBrain> a .txt feels like BBS
18:06:22 <TrueBrain> 1970 called, they are still mad at you
18:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause> we have an ingame readme viewer, but it doesn't show openttd readme, only newgrf readme
18:06:37 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: ironic :D
18:06:43 <TrueBrain> does it show What's new?
18:06:44 <peter1138> And it also doesn't know about md :)
18:06:45 <andythenorth> yeah ok, windows wants to go to the windows app store for .md
18:07:13 <Xaroth> .. or just use notepad :P
18:07:20 <andythenorth> or just abandon the game
18:07:27 <andythenorth> because you can't understand it
18:07:39 <Xaroth> latest win10 update improved notepad
18:07:42 <Eddi|zuHause> notepad is just a horrible program some intern wrote 20 years ago
18:07:45 <TrueBrain> honestly, if you need to read a README before you play a game, I am also a tiny bit worried :D
18:07:47 <Xaroth> it now understands unix/mac newlines
18:08:13 <andythenorth> so wait, who's README.md for again?
18:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we discussed that topic here
18:08:20 <TrueBrain> its horrible isn't it Alberth? No longer something to bitch about :P
18:08:27 <andythenorth> it's not for a broad audience, because broad audience can't open it
18:08:37 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you are being silly; sorry, you are :)
18:08:45 <Alberth> TB: file of 65637 bytes will do :p
18:10:36 <TrueBrain> oeh, and on the plus side, andythenorth, if it is markdown, it can also be put on the website as it (styled and everything! :D)
18:11:04 <Alberth> GH also understands rst I think
18:12:32 <TrueBrain> glx: I still don't know what it solves, so I cannot say anything about it
18:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're conflating two things here: "audience for the readme" and "audience for the readme file on the hard disk"
18:13:09 <andythenorth> expand Eddi|zuHause....
18:13:15 <TrueBrain> glx: in all cases, you have to postfix these files with something
18:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> there's more ways to view the readme than the file on the hard disk
18:13:22 <TrueBrain> empty files that look like generated will confuse the fuck out of people
18:13:25 <andythenorth> I asked what the audience was, and that was too black and white :)
18:13:29 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: actually, i read something about notepad being a testing ground for various things, like the open file dialog
18:13:37 <TrueBrain> glx: so .timestamp postfix or something would go a long way :D
18:14:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: honestly, i think the way most people will find the readme is via google
18:14:20 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: like I said earlier, we should split the two files .. developers and players have nothing in common .. don't put it in a single file
18:14:23 <andythenorth> yes, but what about people who don't have an internet connection
18:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that's why we have CONTRIBUTING.md?
18:14:41 <andythenorth> I am not even trolling, having internet is still privileged
18:14:42 <TrueBrain> NO INTERNET CONNECTION?!
18:14:58 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no, that is when you want to contribute, which is yet-another-step-further
18:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: these people will figure out how to view an .md file eventually
18:15:06 <TrueBrain> README -> CONTRIBUTING is mostly the path of a developer
18:15:13 <TrueBrain> <nothing> is mostly the path of a player
18:15:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: by visiting the Windows App Store, online?
18:15:35 <andythenorth> because Windows does *not* know how to open .md
18:15:39 <glx> it solves the "generating table/strings.h" constantly happening after a source file, like english.txt, is modified, but the content of table/strings.h was not modified
18:15:49 <LordAro> glx: i suspect the circumstances in which such an issue can occur are very limited, even for developers
18:16:04 <TrueBrain> glx: it doesn't happen for me; so I have a hard time understanding :D But I also havent looked into it yet, so .. meh
18:16:05 <LordAro> except while you're doing cmake stuff
18:16:23 <TrueBrain> while working on cmake itself, you have to accept you are constantly throwing your whole build folder away :P
18:16:29 <glx> can happen when switching branches too
18:17:04 <TrueBrain> but okay, we really should make a pass on cmake to simplify it more
18:17:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it reconfigures after switching branches for me, usually
18:17:20 <TrueBrain> it is better to have understandable cmake code, than cover every edge-case tbh
18:18:50 <andythenorth> also can I bonfire small parts of the wiki?
18:19:07 <andythenorth> eh forgiveness > permission
18:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's two kinds of people who need to read the readme. the first is "wtf! this doesn't run!" where the answer is usually "you need to download a base set", and the second is "wtf! this doesn't compile!" to which the answer is "you're missing these libraries:"
18:19:16 <LordAro> you could probably make a reasonable claim that not touching an unchanged file is a cmake bug
18:19:24 <LordAro> andythenorth: depends which parts
18:19:25 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I think here too the suggestion goes: we can debate these things for ever, or we can just move along and do something .. so yeah ..
18:19:27 <TrueBrain> break eggs, who cares
18:19:44 <andythenorth> it has been a while since I was accused of wiki vandalism
18:19:53 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and we really really should fix the first category, to automatically fix it, or hint to how to solve it :)
18:20:18 <TrueBrain> the current hint is annoying as fuck
18:20:28 <TrueBrain> (Basically, it says: RTFM)
18:20:30 <LordAro> there are definitely some issues with the current bootstrap download
18:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then there's fractally more complicated edge cases
18:20:42 <LordAro> it doesn't seem to trigger as often as it should
18:20:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like every now and then an actual bug happens
18:20:54 <TrueBrain> it starts with searchpaths being silly
18:20:59 <glx> for table/* files it's not very important, but for squirrel exports it's quickly annoying to get so many "generating hpp.sq" lines even when your are no longer touching that part of the source
18:21:40 <TrueBrain> glx: and this is really needed, I guess we at least should turn it into a macro
18:22:11 <TrueBrain> because ....... git goes only to 2004?
18:22:13 <andythenorth> but it might be really important
18:22:27 <LordAro> andythenorth: but that's my favourite page
18:22:36 <LordAro> that's definitely no longer relevant
18:22:43 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you should just have removed it .... I bet he would have never found out :P
18:22:50 <glx> ah yes the macro is a good idea
18:23:01 <andythenorth> yeah but Github doesn't credit, e.g. RichK67
18:23:02 <TrueBrain> March 2004 I think?
18:23:10 <TrueBrain> he doesn't deserve credit :P
18:23:30 <LordAro> it doesn't credit contributors it doesn't have users for
18:23:38 <TrueBrain> a story of not having backups, and a hosting partner who demanded more money ..
18:23:41 <TrueBrain> it was such a fun story
18:24:00 <LordAro> i.e. it doesn't add the raw foobar@openttd.org "users"
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18:24:28 <TrueBrain> owh, I should get some dinner I guess
18:26:19 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: some more serious thought, what would really help for OpenTTD, I think, is if the README.md in the root folder was meant for people visiting GitHub
18:26:27 <TrueBrain> and in docs/ or something we can put one which is meant for bundling
18:26:37 <TrueBrain> as having "compile" instructions in the bundle, is stupid
18:26:47 <TrueBrain> (as ... you literally cannot compile it when you read that :P)
18:27:05 <TrueBrain> so that at least answers who the reader of the README.md is in the root folder of OpenTTD: GitHub visitors :D
18:27:35 <LordAro> what about reading the readme stops you from compiling it?
18:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> we could easily output a readme.html from the .md?
18:27:43 <LordAro> TrueBrain: I WAS TYPING
18:27:47 <TrueBrain> LordAro: TYPE FASTER
18:28:07 <michi_cc> LordAro: A bundle it a release without sources.
18:28:08 <TrueBrain> LordAro: you download the windows .zip
18:28:12 <TrueBrain> you read the README
18:28:14 <TrueBrain> you try to compile it
18:28:31 <LordAro> but if you have a source bundle...
18:28:40 <TrueBrain> yes; exception for source bundle
18:28:43 <TrueBrain> but that is 1 out of the 12
18:28:47 <TrueBrain> but I agree, there is one exception
18:28:50 <Alberth> Eddi: yes, all kinds of conversion tools for .md files
18:28:51 <TrueBrain> but the source bundle is easy
18:28:59 <TrueBrain> so it is not really a "bundle"
18:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so, we need README.md, COMPILING.md, CONTRIBUTING.md and a README.html for people who only know how to click on a file
18:29:08 <TrueBrain> but okay, rephrase: BINARY bundle, is stupid
18:29:24 <LordAro> yeah, could probably be split - the docs foldee is bundled with all releases anyway, right?
18:29:38 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: docs/WELCOME.md, README.md (your COMPILING.md), .. would be my suggestion ;)
18:29:50 <LordAro> welcome.md in a subfolder is silly
18:29:53 <TrueBrain> I know it is amess :P
18:29:53 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that doesn't sound right
18:30:02 <TrueBrain> LordAro: you bundle that to readme.pdf in the bundle ofc!
18:30:13 <TrueBrain> s/bundle/binary bundle/
18:30:24 <TrueBrain> readme is a stupid word ..
18:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: docs/ should be for development documentation, not for readmes
18:30:43 <TrueBrain> anyway, just remember that GitHub looks for README.md and CONTRIBUTING.md
18:30:57 <LordAro> BUILDING is the more common term for build instructions iirc, anyway
18:31:33 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: also, WELCOME is a weird name
18:31:58 <Eddi|zuHause> if i'm having install troubles, i'm not going to read a file called WELCOME
18:32:00 <TrueBrain> docs/NOBODY_IS_EVER_READING_THIS.md? :D
18:32:08 <LordAro> i don't think a separate welcome doc is necessary
18:32:19 <LordAro> a paragraph at the top of readme would suffice
18:32:45 <TrueBrain> what you can also dooooooooooo
18:32:49 <TrueBrain> is use doxygen to generate your documentation
18:33:05 <LordAro> it does need some work
18:33:12 <TrueBrain> no, not source documentation
18:33:16 <TrueBrain> README, etc, documentation
18:33:20 <TrueBrain> doxygen can process markdown files ;)
18:33:27 <TrueBrain> does a pretty nice job with it, tbh
18:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of doxygen, do we have doxygen output readable anywhere online?
18:33:57 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: of course
18:33:59 <TrueBrain> any one in specific?
18:34:01 <TrueBrain> or just a random one?
18:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> preferably the one from the openttd source :p
18:34:27 <TrueBrain> we also have NoAi and NoGS
18:34:33 <TrueBrain> but you are not specific, so I am neither
18:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that is a very empty page :)
18:34:51 <TrueBrain> our doxygen is very bad
18:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> could use a "this is for OpenTTD <version>"
18:35:08 <TrueBrain> but nobody cares .. as you can see :D
18:35:26 <TrueBrain> we do that for NoAI
18:35:30 <TrueBrain> it is injected in Doxygen :P
18:35:53 <TrueBrain> we paid a lot more attention to how that Doxygen produces results
18:35:58 <TrueBrain> as you can see, I hope ;)
18:36:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "The NoAI/OpenTTD trunk revision which matches this documentation is r28004"
18:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of those "well, it's technically correct, but pretty useless"
18:37:06 <pnda> Are # comments allowed in NML, yes they are right?
18:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: i'm pretty sure they are
18:37:24 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah. Nobody knows these URLs, so it is useless anyway
18:37:30 <TrueBrain> turns out they are not really linked from anywhere
18:37:40 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it's not even in the topic
18:37:54 <pnda> Parsing ...?[KIllegal character '#' (character code 0x23) reeeeeeeee
18:38:03 <TrueBrain> so yeah .. a year ago we already noticed it needs a more proper solution
18:38:06 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: then try //
18:38:08 <TrueBrain> owh, right, food .. I am hungry ..
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18:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: is your # at the start of the line?
18:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that should work
18:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i've definitely compiled nml files which contain #
18:40:17 <criador15> in GS this is right? local cargoType = 0; local size = cargoType.len();
18:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: that doesn't make any sense
18:40:49 <criador15> len() will return the lenght of size
18:40:50 <andythenorth> nml comments are //
18:41:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: cpp output contains lots of #
18:41:50 <andythenorth> as usual with nml then I have NFI
18:41:55 <andythenorth> but my code is // or /*
18:42:17 <criador15> i want ´size´ have GSText.STR_WELCOME length, but len() return a error
18:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause> both should work, afaik
18:42:54 <andythenorth> can I be arsed to test it?
18:43:06 <andythenorth> can we burn nml?
18:43:18 <criador15> //, /* */ and #, every language choose your
18:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: if you press ctrl+enter you can have / at the start of the line
18:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: in IRC
18:44:45 <nielsm> the number of ways to mark comments in languages is enormous
18:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: well, most IRC clients
18:45:08 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: depends on the client
18:45:48 <criador15> sometimes /* comments here*/
18:46:11 <criador15> how i know the size of this GSText.STR_WELCOME?
18:46:18 <LordAro> ...i think we're talking at cross purposes here
18:46:19 <pnda> I thought the def nml() inside of main.py would be the main part of parsing the nml file. Am I wrong?
18:47:28 <criador15> as always, I tried to create a sign, but I need to check the preconditions
18:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so if i read the parser correctly, lines starting with "#" are considered "line directives" (guiding which source file to reference for error handling and stuff), and # is invalid elsewhere
18:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so use // comments
18:48:34 <criador15> if i am not confuse, # are used in .bat files too
18:49:14 <pnda> Uhh in main.py, there's result = nml_parser.parse(script, file). It seems to not be parsing that file, rather the file stated in the command line (python nmlc test.nml)
18:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought bat files was ;
18:49:51 <nielsm> the only official way in msdos batch files has always been "rem"
18:49:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it's been like 20 years since i wrote bat files
18:49:59 <nielsm> but : has been abused for it
18:50:15 <nielsm> since : at the start of a line marks a label for goto commands
18:50:19 <Eddi|zuHause> oh right, : worked (which is jump markers)
18:50:23 <nielsm> but it's not an error to have a label never used
18:50:33 <criador15> you are using assembler?lol
18:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: i don't understand what you mean
18:51:15 <criador15> would be cool, but i know you are not
18:52:04 <criador15> nieslm you know how to use the len() method to check GSText.STR sizes?
18:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: GSText doesn't know the length
18:54:27 <Eddi|zuHause> GSText is just an ID passed to OpenTTD, so OpenTTD can look up the string from the translation files
18:54:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the length will not be known until that happens
18:54:54 <criador15> i can place a sign using just plain string?
18:54:56 <Eddi|zuHause> because it will be different depending on translation used
18:55:14 <Eddi|zuHause> have you looked at the tutorial?
18:55:15 <criador15> and it never will be translated?
18:57:10 <LordAro> criador15: it's bad form to randomly highlight random people with random questions
18:57:57 <pnda> I want to test something with NML. I have nml_parser.parse(script, file). That file is a specific file I defined above with file = open("file", "w"). It's still trying to parse the file defined in the command line arguments (python nmlc test.nml)
18:58:32 <andythenorth> and it's just a signpost to other places?
18:59:17 <andythenorth> low chance of readme.txt being both (1) comprehensive to all edge cases (2) easy to understand
18:59:22 * andythenorth favours easy to understand
18:59:29 <Alberth> criador15: addressing me by highlighting means I am to respond. That;s fine for things you want to discuss with me, but it also means all others will often not answer, even if they know the answer
19:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: it should be a filename, not a file
19:00:21 <Alberth> by asking the question in general, you're likely to get an answer faster and more accurately; more people really know more than one
19:00:28 <pnda> oh so just like nml_parser.parse(script, "file.nml")?
19:00:33 <LordAro> andythenorth: i disagree that there should be a separate readme.md and readme.txt
19:00:59 <LordAro> and it definitely should be a readme.md file, due to how GH renders it , and how it actually is very readable
19:01:36 <criador15> i know, but sometimes there is no response, and when this happen i highlight someone i think will know anwers
19:02:07 <pnda> Eddi|zuHause: oh so just like nml_parser.parse(script, "file.nml")?
19:02:56 <criador15> GSSign.BuildSign() create a uncloseabe sign?
19:04:00 <Eddi|zuHause> criador15: you must run BuildSign as the correct company
19:04:22 <Alberth> IRC is a slow medium, people have the window open while doing other things, they may respond anywhere between immediately and a few hours
19:04:42 <andythenorth> so as usual, we don't know what we want
19:04:51 <andythenorth> which is why docs are already a cluster fuck :)
19:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: you could have tried that out instead of waiting if i happen to read the question
19:05:04 <Alberth> if you're doing the work, I'd say tou make the choice
19:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: i don't know what you're trying to achieve, but you're probably doing it wrong
19:05:21 <pnda> Well, I did try. But it's still trying to read the file from the command line arguments
19:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: also, you might be running the wrong nmlc (not the one you modified)
19:05:51 <pnda> It's definitely the one I modified
19:06:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it most likely is not
19:06:10 <criador15> how build the sign via player company using GS?
19:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (still RE: the idea of there's a different one in your PATH)
19:06:40 <Alberth> you switch to that company, then build a sign
19:06:55 <Alberth> (and then switch back)
19:07:41 <pnda> In the command line arguments, I define a .nml file, which does have a Syntax error, but I always get that syntax error, but inside the error it says it's the file I defined in the python code.
19:08:15 <criador15> i am with two tabs of the game API open
19:08:35 <criador15> in company there is no method to build sign, only in GSSign
19:08:54 <criador15> and i dont have a current developed AI to switch place with player
19:10:04 <criador15> Alberth yes i read the API
19:10:07 <Alberth> AIs cannot switch company, GS can
19:11:08 <criador15> right, which class do it?
19:11:11 <Alberth> criador15: Well sorry, but I read literally : GSCompanyMode Class to switch the current company and you ask how
19:12:39 <Alberth> after you switch, everything you do is in that companies name, so if you place a sign, it's like the company placed it
19:13:08 <criador15> so its like control a AIControl, which control the player company?
19:14:08 <Alberth> you are aware that there is also NoAI, for making companies that play the game, right?
19:14:25 <LordAro> noai.openttd.org != nogs.openttd.org
19:14:29 <andythenorth> so what's the readme in GH for?
19:14:42 <criador15> i am learning with tutorialAI, busybees simple city builder
19:14:47 <Alberth> those are named "AI", so I am note sure what "AIControl" means here
19:15:36 <Alberth> andy: Is there a noob manual of some sort?
19:15:38 <criador15> i mean, GSCompany mode is like control a AI, but the ´AI´ its the player company
19:15:53 <pnda> reee I don't get why nmlc is still trying to use the other file
19:15:54 <criador15> noob is way to much
19:16:03 <criador15> i am here for 4 days
19:16:05 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: remember that things like .txt is always fixable. So what the format is, is not much of a discussion
19:16:09 <TrueBrain> we can always convert md to txt
19:16:11 <TrueBrain> we cannot convert txt to md
19:16:22 <andythenorth> yeah, I'm more interested in content at this point
19:16:24 <Alberth> criador15: it said "andy:"
19:16:25 <TrueBrain> so yeah .. I wouldnt worry too much about how bundles look :)
19:16:32 <TrueBrain> and your ToC looks nice
19:16:39 <TrueBrain> lets see what happens
19:16:42 <TrueBrain> do what you think is best :)
19:16:48 <Alberth> criador15: in that case, it's like ai control
19:16:51 <andythenorth> Alberth: the official manual is the wiki
19:17:16 <andythenorth> the wiki is also the official development source
19:17:32 <andythenorth> except that GH is the official development source
19:17:43 <Alberth> andy: I would say, it's at people visiting GH, which are mostly tech users/devs. You may want to point other users towards documentation such as the wiki near the top of the page
19:18:35 <andythenorth> on this general subject, who is forum mod in development sub-forum?
19:19:04 <Alberth> :o didn't know you could ask that :)
19:19:36 <LordAro> andythenorth: i don't see anything very wrong there
19:19:45 <LordAro> if you have an svn-style patch, that's still the way to do it
19:19:53 <andythenorth> yes, which is wrong
19:20:10 <LordAro> the topic is literally "how to apply a patch/diff file"
19:20:30 <LordAro> also it does actually mention how to apply git patches, albeit briefly
19:20:47 <andythenorth> it's junk information
19:20:54 <andythenorth> it wastes people's time
19:20:57 <Alberth> nodoubt in those days, git/hg was hardly used
19:21:14 <andythenorth> no it's wrong that it's pinned, sorry
19:21:17 <TrueBrain> btw, with the website on GH, possibly we can move some of these things (both threads as wiki pages) to the website itself .. might be nicer to reduce the amount of places information is at, or something
19:21:20 <andythenorth> better explanation
19:21:40 <criador15> i made this: local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF);
19:21:53 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, close as invalid? :p
19:22:09 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i'm pretty sure, yes.
19:22:11 <criador15> but this: playerCompany.BuildSign() may dont work
19:22:35 <andythenorth> yeah wiki is canonical ok
19:22:42 <TrueBrain> I hate mediawiki :P
19:22:47 <TrueBrain> shall we install Confluence?
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19:23:13 <TrueBrain> you can't put these things on Discord you silly goose
19:23:24 <andythenorth> discord is requested btw
19:23:32 <andythenorth> ok forums clean now
19:23:35 <criador15> what about a custom site?
19:23:39 <andythenorth> one less source of nonsense
19:23:58 <pnda> You can put these things on discord, if you really want to
19:24:09 <criador15> everything you want, and they alow
19:24:14 <TrueBrain> can a duck fit in a square? Sure, it can .. but do you want to? :P
19:24:32 <LordAro> i have absolutely no issues with mediawiki, fwiw
19:24:38 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: no .. but I am also not interested to show other ways of doing it, so I am not going to bother :P
19:24:38 <Alberth> duck may object too :)
19:24:39 <LordAro> it's definitely the best at being a wiki
19:24:46 <pnda> or you could have a implementation of the wiki to discord with a bot for example
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19:24:59 <andythenorth> dunno if I can edit wiki sidebar
19:25:10 <LordAro> pnda: that sentence barely even makes sense
19:25:20 <TrueBrain> LordAro: but what ever definition of "best" :D
19:25:24 <LordAro> andythenorth: it's just a page somewhere, you should be able to
19:25:28 <criador15> i dont know how to use GSCompanymode
19:25:31 <LordAro> TrueBrain: "at being a wiki"
19:25:35 <TrueBrain> never tried the GH Wiki .. never saw it used
19:25:49 <TrueBrain> LordAro: yes, I was not debating that part of your statement. I was what you consider "best" :D
19:25:58 <TrueBrain> as best is optimized to something ;)
19:26:07 <TrueBrain> best at looking fugly
19:26:17 <TrueBrain> best at making administrators live horrible
19:26:22 <TrueBrain> those are also "best" :D
19:26:24 <LordAro> that's because it's an ancient version of mediawiki
19:26:31 <TrueBrain> people keep saying that
19:26:34 <LordAro> there have been 2 different default style sheets since then
19:26:36 <TrueBrain> people keep saying they are going to upgrade it :P
19:26:36 <Alberth> best at being random collection of stuff
19:26:44 <andythenorth> I can't figure out how to edit wiki sidebar
19:26:55 <andythenorth> 'WebTranslator' is 404
19:27:02 <TrueBrain> so possibly LordAro we have to adjust your definition: "our" mediawiki is not the best wiki out there :P
19:27:12 <LordAro> TrueBrain: that's fair :p
19:27:38 <TrueBrain> what I really dislike about wiki, that changes, even to pages like Coding Style, can go completely unchecked
19:27:43 <TrueBrain> so I am never sure what I read is true
19:27:45 <LordAro> it might be protected
19:28:29 <LordAro> that's so much a non-statement. everything's like that, from comments to code itself
19:29:00 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I see nothing wrong in the sidebar?
19:29:13 <andythenorth> click 'Web Translator'
19:29:25 <TrueBrain> LordAro: that is simply not true. All our code is reviewed
19:29:26 <pnda> I cba editing nml anymore. I don't see why this doesn't work like I want it to
19:29:30 <TrueBrain> at least 1 other person agreed with you
19:29:40 <andythenorth> I'm fixing that sidebar
19:29:40 <TrueBrain> so the chances of it being correct, is so much higher
19:29:46 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: reload the page silly
19:29:57 <LordAro> TrueBrain: it is now, sure, but things can still get missed (the various html pages are the obvious example)
19:30:03 <TrueBrain> LordAro: as the component of feeling being watched, helps with the quality
19:30:27 <TrueBrain> I read so many untrue statements on our wiki, that I simply stopped reading it
19:30:30 <andythenorth> how much else in the wiki can be 'fixed' that way?
19:30:34 <andythenorth> i.e. delete hammer
19:30:48 <andythenorth> "The graphics section is where artists, NewGRF engine coders, and other graphics related developers collaborate on graphics development. Find out about the latest developments in base graphics, NewGrfs (both 8bpp and 32bpp) and more. "
19:30:54 <andythenorth> that's complete crap ^
19:31:30 <TrueBrain> LordAro: but okay, let me rephrase: on a wiki I never know if it *once* was true
19:32:03 <andythenorth> I would like to set the wiki free
19:32:16 <TrueBrain> guess I don't have faith in our anonymous contributors :D
19:32:27 <andythenorth> it would be much better if the wiki wasn't even *supposed* to be true
19:32:28 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: so turn the wiki over to the website, and all changes must be audited through github PRs?
19:32:42 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: if I had the time, with some pages, I would
19:32:48 <TrueBrain> well . time .. interest ..
19:33:11 <LordAro> TrueBrain: in newer versions of mediawiki, there is a concept of "patrolling", where edits need to be reviewed before being shown
19:33:21 <TrueBrain> LordAro: so PRs for wiki? :D
19:33:41 <LordAro> it can be applied on a per-page basis
19:33:46 <pnda> can I trigger a cmd command within a python script?
19:33:47 <andythenorth> where is it hosted?
19:33:51 <andythenorth> sometimes, it's really helpful
19:33:58 <TrueBrain> where is what hosted? :P
19:34:09 <TrueBrain> our wiki? on our infrastructure of course
19:34:13 <andythenorth> sometimes, the best progress comes if a server dies, and it turns out there were no backups
19:34:17 <TrueBrain> forum is the only one we are not in control of
19:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sadly, we have backups since 2004 :p
19:34:43 <andythenorth> maybe they're not restorable?
19:34:46 <LordAro> i don't think that's a very productive attitude
19:34:49 <TrueBrain> no, I dont mind the wiki. I mind that some key pages are .. just idling there, possibly being correct
19:34:53 <LordAro> every wiki has its outdated parts
19:35:03 <LordAro> complaining about them is just a waste of time
19:35:03 <andythenorth> let fans make a wikia
19:35:11 <andythenorth> like they do for other games
19:35:23 <LordAro> andythenorth: ...or a wiki
19:35:25 <Alberth> it's worse, we have pages "archived" for preserving hisotry
19:35:43 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I guess that is somewhat what my issue is. A wiki should be by the users, and don't contain any important information for development on its own
19:35:48 <Alberth> eg early the 32bpp stuff iirc
19:36:12 <LordAro> wikia is absolutely no different to a mediawiki instance, except there's absolutely no (guarantee of) official management
19:36:18 <LordAro> so the issue is even worse
19:36:24 <andythenorth> no that's better
19:36:31 <andythenorth> it's not in uncanny valley
19:36:36 <TrueBrain> I wonder how some wikis have their quality so high
19:36:40 <TrueBrain> never really looked into it, I have to say
19:37:00 <TrueBrain> gamepedia is also a wiki, I assume?
19:37:17 <criador15> what about take the useful and true information of the wiki and bring it to the forum in the help section?
19:38:00 <TrueBrain> guess the same goes as for forums ... without good moderation, your content is shit
19:38:05 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that also has its outdated parts
19:38:37 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: outdated I noticed, but rarely wrong
19:39:05 <criador15> what about take the useful and true information of the wiki and bring it to the forum in the help section?
19:39:08 <glx> [19:21:42] <criador15> i made this: local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF); <-- COMPANY_SELF is OWNER_DEITY for GS, you need to use a real company value
19:39:12 <peter1138> With newgrf_dock.cpp :p
19:39:24 <criador15> and how they say wait for it broke?
19:39:29 <andythenorth> criador15: forum is even worse than wiki :)
19:39:36 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'm not aware that that's any different from our wiki
19:39:44 <peter1138> andythenorth, now I need to borrow the UI
19:39:45 <LordAro> "outdated but rarely wrong"
19:39:48 <peter1138> and, er, make a NewGRF?
19:40:07 <andythenorth> then $somebody needs to patch nml
19:40:14 <TrueBrain> LordAro: meh. You should open these things like Blackbook and what did they call it ..
19:40:22 <TrueBrain> even when written, they were not true
19:40:38 <TrueBrain> I am mostly wondering what it takes to make a wiki work
19:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i imagine poe has a much larger player base, so there likely is a tighter core group trying to weed out misinformation
19:40:57 <andythenorth> I concluded that I will die not knowing that TrueBrain
19:41:01 <andythenorth> it's an unknowable
19:41:13 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I guess that can be true
19:41:14 <LordAro> TrueBrain: the blackbook section should probably be removed, i'll grant you
19:41:29 <peter1138> TrueBrain, sit down and rewrite everything yourself, basically.
19:41:35 <andythenorth> ^ that should die
19:41:50 <andythenorth> oh yeah, you mentione the black book, wtf even is that?
19:42:03 <TrueBrain> it was an ill attempt years ago to create a "development" section
19:42:07 <TrueBrain> it was a big hit back than
19:42:11 <TrueBrain> and someone ran with it
19:42:28 <TrueBrain> believe it was when namespaces were just introduced
19:42:30 <andythenorth> I am going scorched earth
19:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: there's another tipping point when you get to the size of wikipedia, where the core group is like "we assume everything worthwile is already included, so new entries must by default be irrelevant"
19:42:40 <andythenorth> I will also save things tthat need moved to our own docs in .md
19:42:51 <andythenorth> in fact, I just kill things
19:43:16 <TrueBrain> there is a lot of shadow-bookkeeping :D
19:43:33 <criador15> this looks like the developers task list
19:43:56 <andythenorth> nobody cares about it :)
19:44:19 <andythenorth> how do I just delete a page?
19:44:28 <criador15> you have to use FTP
19:44:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you should rewrite that page detailing how we use github, and prepare searches for tickets with tags like "good first issue"
19:44:47 <TrueBrain> owh, right, we also have translations on wiki
19:44:53 <TrueBrain> did that ever became a thing?
19:44:57 <andythenorth> I don't have permissions
19:45:03 <LordAro> TrueBrain: very much so
19:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i'm pretty sure translations exist
19:45:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: TBH that sounds like more work
19:45:22 <andythenorth> and more maintenance
19:45:28 <andythenorth> why don't we stop laying traps for future us?
19:45:40 <criador15> laying traps is fun
19:45:49 <andythenorth> the only reason someone finds this page is because google indexes it because we put supposedly useful info on it
19:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the point of that would be that people can get an overview, without having actual data on the wiki that needs maintained
19:45:52 <TrueBrain> LordAro: for OpenTTD, I meant ofc
19:46:02 <LordAro> TrueBrain: for the wiki? yes
19:46:09 <andythenorth> but if we stop creating junk and spam, google will index the relevant maintained pages
19:46:12 <TrueBrain> never understood how you keep translations up-to-date :)
19:46:14 <andythenorth> instead of the fake ones
19:46:19 <LordAro> i'd say >75% of the pages are translations
19:46:20 <TrueBrain> but it is nice if it is used :)
19:46:28 <LordAro> TrueBrain: up to the translator usually
19:46:35 <andythenorth> can someone increase my wiki privileges?
19:46:35 <LordAro> just like all other translations
19:47:06 <TrueBrain> yeah yeah andythenorth, was already doing that :P
19:47:16 <TrueBrain> just takes for ever to login
19:47:20 <TrueBrain> and find the things to change
19:47:45 <andythenorth> apparently that's something we're working on
19:47:49 <andythenorth> seriously, fuck wikis
19:47:53 <andythenorth> they're too cheap to add to
19:47:57 <andythenorth> and too expensive to maintain
19:48:09 <criador15> what i pass here GSCompanyMode::GSCompanyMode()?
19:48:31 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you have all the power you can ever need
19:48:33 <TrueBrain> don't abuse it plz :P
19:48:38 <andythenorth> there's always undo
19:49:04 <TrueBrain> well .. you can press buttons that don't havei undo :P
19:49:31 <TrueBrain> wait, this should be enough
19:49:36 <TrueBrain> you might have to relog btw
19:50:05 <criador15> like ctrl+s and alt+f4
19:51:57 <LordAro> TrueBrain: "main page in the current language", i think
19:52:28 <andythenorth> hmm deleting is rocket science
19:52:31 <andythenorth> there's no button for it
19:53:04 <andythenorth> media wiki docs say I need to be sysop
19:53:17 <Wolf01> Don't delete wiki pagess, redirect
19:53:21 <TrueBrain> press the down arrow
19:53:38 <criador15> make a deleted page, and redirect all to it
19:53:53 <andythenorth> seems like you all know more about wikis than me
19:53:58 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: so now you don't have any more excuses
19:53:59 <andythenorth> I just want to draw trains tbh, but eh
19:54:02 <andythenorth> work has to be done first
19:54:10 <TrueBrain> you see the dropdown now?
19:54:38 <peter1138> 18:53 < andythenorth> I just want to draw trains tbh, but eh
19:54:40 <andythenorth> I logged out and in
19:54:44 <peter1138> You are basically procrastinating...
19:55:03 <andythenorth> I am basically trying to find a solution to why nml docs are shit
19:55:07 <andythenorth> as I have to write some
19:55:26 <andythenorth> and I hate the current set up
19:55:43 <TrueBrain> you should see that
19:57:07 <TrueBrain> before you hit edit
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19:58:18 <andythenorth> where do you change my setttings?
19:58:27 <TrueBrain> you have a different style .. :o
19:58:27 <andythenorth> isn't the wiki user database quite broken>?
19:58:49 <andythenorth> maybe that was newgrf wiki
19:59:16 <criador15> maybe you are using mods
19:59:51 <criador15> hey, there are less language options now
20:00:06 <criador15> before was 5, now 2 plus mp
20:01:06 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: meh, seems LDAP is cached
20:01:49 <criador15> someone can help me with GSCompanyMode?
20:02:18 <criador15> local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(0); this dont work
20:02:44 <TrueBrain> I could manually add you
20:02:49 <TrueBrain> mediawiki and ldap integration
20:02:53 <TrueBrain> try now andythenorth
20:04:33 <criador15> whoa whoa whoa! looks the magic
20:07:04 <andythenorth> anyone know how to redirect a wiki page?
20:07:09 <LordAro> andythenorth: ...why have you created a "Deleted" page?
20:07:16 <LordAro> that's not how this works at all
20:07:18 <andythenorth> trying to learn to wiki
20:07:30 <TrueBrain> stop saying what not to do, start saying what to do :)
20:07:34 <LordAro> if you want to delete something, delete it
20:08:01 <andythenorth> yeah it was suggested I don't
20:08:10 <andythenorth> and mediwiki suggest I should move it to Deleted
20:08:16 <criador15> its better redirect than a broken link
20:08:17 <LordAro> but it's something like #REDIRECT some_page, i think
20:08:34 <LordAro> criador15: if something is being deleted, it shouldn't have any broken links
20:08:55 <criador15> thats not how links works
20:09:02 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: if the chief says to delete it, delete it :P
20:09:11 <criador15> wiki have 404 pages too
20:09:15 <LordAro> sorry, if something is being deleted, it shouldn't have any links to be broken
20:09:21 <andythenorth> do we have a copy-paste bock for deprecation warnings?
20:09:32 <andythenorth> like a 'this is all out of date'
20:09:37 <andythenorth> red block or something
20:09:40 <LordAro> there is a template somewhere, iirc
20:10:07 <LordAro> Template:Outdated, in fact
20:11:46 <TrueBrain> just delete that page
20:11:49 <TrueBrain> 10 years out of date ..
20:12:08 <TrueBrain> good way to test if that keeps history or not :P
20:12:49 <andythenorth> I bet that's been used at least once
20:13:15 <TrueBrain> what a shitty pages, those deleted pages
20:14:43 <andythenorth> yeah actually I now regret this a bit
20:14:47 <andythenorth> as always in a project
20:14:48 <LordAro> listing pages isn't all that helpful
20:15:40 <andythenorth> I am a bit lost now, there is so much stuff here
20:15:49 <andythenorth> and presumably lots of people find it really useful?
20:15:55 <andythenorth> like, is this how you all learnt to develop?
20:16:02 <LordAro> there are definitely useful pages in there
20:16:06 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TheHendla commented on issue #6682: menu bars disappear if enable windows screen scaling on high dpi monitors https://git.io/fjv0d
20:19:47 <andythenorth> that was instead of svn?
20:19:51 <TrueBrain> that is freaking old :D
20:19:57 <TrueBrain> haha, that still exists? Holy crap
20:20:09 <TrueBrain> back in the old old old old OLD days, the way to inform people on IRC about SubVersion commits
20:20:14 <LordAro> did 2 concurrent users kill it?
20:20:15 <TrueBrain> was via CIA (really terrible name)
20:20:29 <TrueBrain> it was really popular
20:20:41 <TrueBrain> like ... every IRC channel that did development had CIA-1..9 in there
20:20:49 <TrueBrain> but .. it broke .. and nobody was home
20:20:51 <andythenorth> I can clean up the simple stuff
20:20:53 <andythenorth> but this black book
20:20:56 <TrueBrain> so .. we wrote DorpsGek
20:21:09 <TrueBrain> that is the story of CIA :)
20:21:09 <andythenorth> do we know how many visits a wiki page gets?
20:21:16 <peter1138> How do I make a UI? :(
20:21:21 <TrueBrain> you can see the unique hits andythenorth :)
20:21:28 <andythenorth> if that black book is our main development docs, then it needs to be preserved
20:21:49 <peter1138> Cool, I'll ignore that :D
20:21:57 <peter1138> Since OpenTTD is a game of the 1990s, it should also have that look and feel.
20:22:15 <peter1138> LordAro, lol NWidgetTree
20:22:32 <LordAro> andythenorth: that page can go
20:22:33 <peter1138> Okay but I've just downloaded a C172 bushkit, so I might go flying.
20:22:46 <peter1138> I think the UseWindows one can too
20:22:49 <andythenorth> LordAro: delete, or redirect, or deprecate?
20:23:00 <LordAro> possibly redirect to Compiling ?
20:24:50 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
20:25:28 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
20:25:41 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector https://git.io/fjvEv
20:25:46 *** supermop_Home has joined #openttd
20:25:52 <TrueBrain> LordAro: you can now do that yourself :D
20:26:19 <peter1138> Is the std::vector stuff in a usable state?
20:26:41 <TrueBrain> LordAro: yeah, you telling someone else what to remove didn't sound productive, so I thought, I can fix that :)
20:27:24 <LordAro> peter1138: it's pretty much ready to merge, not including existing comments
20:28:07 * andythenorth deleting categories
20:28:23 <LordAro> ok, i shall delete the unused templates :)
20:28:59 <peter1138> Quick question, is any part of NewGRF stations relevant to bus/truck stops, docks and airports?
20:29:05 <michi_cc> It would make some sense to have development related info (Coding style, commit style, whatever) on GitHub. I don't really know all the GitHub stuff though, no clue if GitHub Wiki, Pages or whatever there else is, is the right solution.
20:29:08 <peter1138> I notice that airports have their own airport spec and airport tile spec.
20:29:33 <peter1138> I'm thinking about renaming the newgrf station stuff to refer to trains explicitly.
20:29:47 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: that is possible. Question is, do we want that many places information is at. Possibly it is also good to have in the repository itself? But yeah .. something like that would be good in my opinion too :)
20:30:39 <peter1138> But for now I'll just work on docks :p
20:30:52 <TrueBrain> trying to download ICC is fun
20:30:58 <michi_cc> If we don't but it visible on GitHub, we'd need a bug link to the wiki. I don't think you can assume somebody looking on GH to contribute will know to search the wiki for the coding style.
20:31:07 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: michi_cc I am thinking that a set of simple .md docs for development is useful
20:31:15 <andythenorth> ideally rendered to html
20:31:17 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i can't seem to delete anything still - only got Move & Watch in my dropdown. I have logged out and in again (twice)
20:31:30 <michi_cc> Subtract the typos from the last message.
20:31:46 <TrueBrain> LordAro: LordAro is your username, not?
20:31:55 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: now I have an empty message :P (j/k)
20:32:37 <LordAro> though i think it's "Lord Aro" in the LDAP side, if that complicates things
20:32:39 <TrueBrain> LDAP syncs are .. weird
20:32:59 <TrueBrain> LordAro: spaces are not possible, so no :P
20:35:24 <TrueBrain> I hate mediawiki ... :( (sorry, but it is horrible to maintain)
20:35:28 <TrueBrain> I add you, you disapear
20:36:28 <TrueBrain> see if it sticks this time
20:36:44 <LordAro> what happens if i relog? :p
20:36:53 <TrueBrain> till the next sync, you lose your rights again
20:36:58 <TrueBrain> seems the LDAP is cached, for .... N time
20:38:08 <LordAro> andythenorth: i think it summarises releases quite well
20:38:35 <LordAro> GH releases are all split into betas, RCs, etc
20:38:43 <TrueBrain> I like how 1.8.0 doesnt have a page :P
20:38:44 <LordAro> and summarises features
20:39:04 <LordAro> and the changelog is there to see
20:39:11 <andythenorth> one of my kids watches a youtuber who just reads out the minecraft changelog
20:39:12 <LordAro> andythenorth: you say such hurtful things
20:39:21 <andythenorth> if I'm in the room I make him turn it off
20:39:44 <LordAro> oh ok, 1.7.2 wasn't me
20:39:47 <TrueBrain> I like how people also do that with details of resource
20:39:52 <TrueBrain> especially with games like SpaceEngineers
20:39:55 <TrueBrain> like .. I CAN READ FFS :P
20:40:06 <andythenorth> it's a safe way of contributing
20:40:17 <andythenorth> I once had an employee who manually recreated an auto-generated page
20:40:23 <andythenorth> and was upset when I said it was a waste of time
20:40:29 <andythenorth> because of the work that had been put in
20:40:49 <TrueBrain> *installs Linux ICC .. gets .cab files ...*
20:41:22 <TrueBrain> there is no executable here ... wuth?
20:42:11 <andythenorth> oof I'm not going and manually removing all those stupid release pages :)
20:44:11 <andythenorth> because it's junk
20:44:21 <andythenorth> anyway, if we can get our info out of the wiki
20:44:24 <andythenorth> I can ignore the junk
20:44:30 <LordAro> it summarises releases
20:44:36 <LordAro> nothing else does that
20:45:31 <andythenorth> which is a copy-paste of the changelog
20:45:39 <LordAro> summarises features, links to bug reports, groups betas, RCs & releases together
20:45:39 <andythenorth> it's teaching the wrong behaviours
20:46:11 <TrueBrain> "Download size 4237 MB."
20:46:27 <andythenorth> we shouldn't be encouraging manual replication of the changelog, waste of life
20:46:53 <TrueBrain> but the style! THE STYLE!
20:47:22 <LordAro> andythenorth: maybe i'm not being blunt enough
20:47:26 <LordAro> i created most of these pages
20:47:30 <LordAro> i don't want them deleted :p
20:47:47 <LordAro> (well, created or standardised)
20:48:16 <peter1138> andythenorth, draw some docks or something
20:49:31 <peter1138> That was quick but...
20:49:40 <andythenorth> you want better? :P
20:49:54 <TrueBrain> kill one's darlings
20:49:54 <TrueBrain> (idiomatic) To destroy, especially with conflicted motives, things or persons of which one is fond.
20:50:00 <TrueBrain> I like it reads "or persons" :D
20:50:08 <andythenorth> I love nothing more than deleting my own work
20:50:55 <andythenorth> it's almost like I was waiting for you
20:51:28 <andythenorth> someone made a really nice docks grf somewhere in forums
20:52:21 <andythenorth> second link better
20:52:56 <peter1138> chips custom docks.
20:53:22 * andythenorth wonders if paul would make a test newgrf for peter1138 :P
20:53:37 <peter1138> Set via parameters, I guess?
20:54:00 <andythenorth> I will stop proposing deleting your work :)
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20:56:06 <criador15> someone can test this to me? local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF); GSSign.BuildSign(signLocation,"Welcome to PROGRESSIVE MODE");
20:57:00 <criador15> with the respectives params:(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF,GSCompany.COMPANY_FIRST,GSCompany.COMPANY_INVALID,0) and tell which display a sign via the player company?
20:57:11 <criador15> here none of them made it
20:57:25 <criador15> (show a sign as the GS)
20:59:52 <andythenorth> these are the objectives for OpenTTD
20:59:58 <andythenorth> but they're not the official objectives
21:00:13 <TrueBrain> wow .... that is one vague "vision"
21:00:14 <andythenorth> this is probably fine
21:00:22 <andythenorth> I really like the official objectives
21:00:38 <criador15> sounds like will have a nds version
21:00:39 <andythenorth> TB, actually having general objectives means we can say 'no war newgrfs'
21:00:45 <peter1138> Shit, I forgot. I can't add newgrf docks :(
21:00:46 <andythenorth> but they could just be in the official
21:00:58 <peter1138> We can't just add things any more.
21:01:03 <peter1138> It has to be in a vision.
21:01:06 <criador15> so wount be mad max new grf?
21:03:18 <pnda> For C++, I can't get my Include Directory to work correctly. I have it set to $Tool\Includes\;, where the .h file is I want to include, but it can apparently not be found. What am I doing wrong?
21:07:55 <andythenorth> have I upset LordAro :(
21:09:48 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone opened pull request #7382: Fix: Fix company performance rating calculation. https://git.io/fjvEu
21:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i know the solution. we need a BIG project manager
21:11:27 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: TrueBrain in all caps?
21:17:37 *** criador15 has joined #openttd
21:20:54 <criador15> unescessary highlight bro
21:21:34 <andythenorth> probably .md, and rendered to html, but format is secondary
21:21:35 <Wolf01> The official objective is only one: remove anything from the game so it can be added back with grfs
21:21:42 <andythenorth> Wolf01: nice try :)
21:22:12 <peter1138> No, we need to replace NewGRF with something(tm)
21:22:26 <andythenorth> replace it with NewGRF
21:22:37 <andythenorth> how about replacing v8 with v9?
21:22:42 <peter1138> And remove all the backwards compatibility.
21:22:47 <peter1138> Because who needs old NewGRFs?
21:23:14 <peter1138> I have no whisky :(
21:23:20 <andythenorth> do you have wine?
21:23:36 <criador15> we have cachaça, acept?
21:23:48 <peter1138> I do have wine. Hmm.
21:24:04 <peter1138> Hmm, should I finish off the white that's in the fridge?
21:24:08 <peter1138> Probably a good idea.
21:24:17 <peter1138> Although it's a £3.50 bottle from Aldi.
21:24:53 <criador15> lol man, wine here is more or less 3 times
21:25:25 <peter1138> Hmm, newobjects seem to be either on land or on water, but not both.
21:25:34 <TrueBrain> whoho, cmake also works with Intel compiler :)
21:25:39 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7382: Fix: Fix company performance rating calculation. https://git.io/fjvE7
21:26:08 <criador15> why the hovercrafts act like boats in game instead of airplanes?
21:26:17 <peter1138> Because they are ships, not airplanes.
21:26:28 <criador15> but they run over earth
21:26:40 <criador15> thats not fair with the ship
21:26:48 <peter1138> Do aircraft do that?
21:26:52 <TrueBrain> CMakeFiles/openttd.dir/src/saveload/afterload.cpp.o: In function `AfterLoadGame()':
21:26:52 <TrueBrain> afterload.cpp:(.text+0x6b50): undefined reference to `int GetAircraftFlightLevel<Aircraft>(Aircraft*, bool)'
21:26:57 <peter1138> I thought aircraft flew.
21:27:16 <andythenorth> there are multiple ways to do docs these days
21:27:18 <andythenorth> that is one of them
21:27:30 <criador15> they could do itself
21:27:31 <LordAro> andythenorth: we have doxygen for such things
21:27:39 <criador15> no one wold complain
21:27:40 <andythenorth> and some other places
21:27:46 <LordAro> andythenorth: ah, NML
21:27:51 <LordAro> yeah, it's probably not too bad for that
21:27:56 <LordAro> GH integration too, right?
21:28:05 <andythenorth> ideally, a generalised approach to docs would be better
21:28:09 <andythenorth> less thinking, less debate
21:28:20 <peter1138> Docs just need *writing*
21:28:30 <peter1138> Less faffing about with where it will live.
21:28:39 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #7382: Fix: Fix company performance rating calculation. https://git.io/fjvEu
21:28:43 <LordAro> bikeshedding is strong today
21:28:45 <andythenorth> yeah I am +1 to that, but I am figuring out how they connect up
21:29:23 <peter1138> I'm thinking the orientation stuff in newobjects is just a faff that docks shouldn't deal with.
21:29:28 <andythenorth> if I just start moving bits of wiki to website, someone is going to say 'you have no plan'
21:29:31 <peter1138> They're either on a slope, or not.
21:29:35 <andythenorth> and if I make a plan, it's bikeshedding :)
21:29:38 <andythenorth> open source lolz
21:29:53 <andythenorth> peter1138: sounds right
21:30:32 <peter1138> A dock on water is no longer water, I guess.
21:30:37 <andythenorth> the nice thing about the website is that we can update general-pupose docs without doing an OpenTTD release
21:30:40 <peter1138> (But can be drawn with water)
21:30:47 <andythenorth> yeah, just draw the water tile
21:30:57 <andythenorth> I do that in FIRS somehow
21:31:07 <peter1138> Let varactions test for adjacent docking tiles.
21:31:37 <TrueBrain> we muted 18 warnings with icc that are no longer needed :D
21:31:41 <TrueBrain> we cleaned up our code pretty nice
21:31:42 <criador15> <@peter1138> A dock on water is no longer water, I guess. press X and discover
21:31:47 <peter1138> Maybe have a property that says "this adjacent tile isn't our docking tile"
21:31:52 <peter1138> criador15, it's MP_STATION, not MP_WATER.
21:32:19 <TrueBrain> now for the linker error
21:32:25 <criador15> you are talking about in game things, right?
21:34:14 <criador15> can someone please take a look on this? local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF);
21:34:21 * andythenorth starts jekyll locally :P
21:34:33 <TrueBrain> LordAro: any idea what that linker error is I showed a bit earlier? (GetAircraftFlightLevel) .. I don't understand the code, but also not the error :(
21:34:37 <glx> you just need to pass a valid company id criador15
21:35:04 <criador15> yeah, but GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF is not valid, neither GSCompany.COMPANY_FIRST, neither 0
21:35:13 <criador15> neither GSCompany.COMPANY_INVALID
21:35:25 <glx> 0 should if there's a player
21:35:44 <criador15> and peter1138 transparency settings make the station disapear
21:37:38 <LordAro> TrueBrain: looks like it's not got a definition for GetAircraftFlightLevel
21:37:41 <glx> local mode = GSCompanyMode(<company_id>);
21:37:41 <glx> <things to do as company_id>
21:38:12 <LordAro> i'm not sure how, perhaps it's not (properly) compiling aircraft_cmd.cpp ?
21:38:22 <criador15> none of them worked here
21:38:27 <TrueBrain> I wonder if master works for ICC :P
21:38:34 <criador15> not work local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF); GSSign.BuildSign(signLocation,"Welcome to PROGRESSIVE MODE");
21:38:51 <criador15> nope too local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_FIRST);
21:39:00 <LordAro> TrueBrain: hmm, that call does use template type inference
21:39:16 <criador15> with 0, not work too
21:39:20 <LordAro> try changing the call in afterload.cpp to GetAircraftFlightLevel<Aircraft>(v)
21:39:20 <TrueBrain> its really not-so-nice-to-follow code tbh
21:40:08 <andythenorth> if you were familiar with C++, but new to OpenTTD
21:40:20 <andythenorth> which .cpp files are best entry points to understand game structure?
21:40:24 <glx> criador15: it should work
21:40:40 <glx> unless signLocatation is an invalid tileindex
21:40:50 <criador15> is valid, i checked
21:42:08 <glx> oh it's a constructor, maybe need <-
21:42:24 <glx> I don't remember the squirrel syntax
21:42:38 <TrueBrain> LordAro: master is also broken
21:42:47 <criador15> playerCompany <- GSCompanyMode(0);?
21:43:47 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
21:44:02 <TrueBrain> either way ... rest is in working order, so I am going to assume here it would link fine if not for this one thingy :)
21:44:35 <TrueBrain> if I could understand how this template was used ... I might try to fix it .. but ... a templated function that is not explicit defined, but implicit used from places, in the hope it exists, or something ... I dunno
21:44:38 <TrueBrain> my head hurts no :P
21:44:59 <glx> well forget the <- it's for tables
21:46:51 <criador15> look for the ´trouble´ word
21:50:05 <glx> ha yes don't do anything with playerCompany
21:50:25 <TrueBrain> LordAro: all usages of <Aircraft> are in static functions in aircraft_cmd.cpp
21:50:28 <TrueBrain> that seems to be the issue here
21:51:35 <TrueBrain> hahahaha, I forgot I had Allegro installed
21:51:38 <TrueBrain> I run OpenTTD from CLI
21:52:05 <criador15> this line is to display it when you run the game
21:52:07 <andythenorth> hmm if the website was GitHub pages, I could publish html previews of it from my fork on GH
21:52:23 <glx> enclose line 23 to 25 in { }
21:52:24 <andythenorth> oh I could just do that manually, too
21:52:53 <glx> because you are changing companymode for all the script right now
21:53:00 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
21:54:12 <peter1138> Doesn't that defeat the point of templates?
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21:54:29 <peter1138> Or is it a static-template thing. Hmm.
21:54:39 <criador15> i want just to make a sign using player company
21:54:40 <TrueBrain> it is not a class template
21:54:44 <TrueBrain> it is a function template
21:54:49 <TrueBrain> no clue how you call them
21:55:07 <glx> and you are already GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF so you are not really changing mode
21:55:14 <TrueBrain> the implementation is in a .cpp file .. it is a bit weird code ..
21:55:57 <LordAro> 20:40:20 < andythenorth> which .cpp files are best entry points to understand game structure?
21:56:09 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #7383: Codechange: fix Intel C++ Compiler linking issues. https://git.io/fjvuO
21:56:14 <andythenorth> thanks, you saved me a trip to google :)
21:56:25 <TrueBrain> there, a PR; if this solution sucks, I am open for other suggestions :)
21:56:28 <LordAro> i could've sworn i've mentioned this page before, but it doesn't appear in my logs at all
21:57:02 <andythenorth> have we html archived that page?
21:57:05 <andythenorth> in case it goes away
21:57:36 <glx> criador15: as I said enclose GSCompanyMode() line and GSSign line in { } and use the player id
21:57:44 <andythenorth> someone got a site sucker?
21:58:10 <criador15> like GSCompanyMode{script here}?
21:58:18 <criador15> like GSCompanyMode(){script here}?*
21:58:49 <glx> no { local variable = GSCompanyMode(); GSSign... }
21:59:23 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7383: Codechange: fix Intel C++ Compiler linking issues. https://git.io/fjvuO
21:59:50 <glx> and allowed values are from 0 to 15
22:01:07 <andythenorth> unless I make the weird github pages branch
22:01:17 <andythenorth> and manually update it :P
22:01:52 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I can't really explain it
22:02:40 <TrueBrain> I also dont know how long ago someone tried Intel Compiler :D
22:03:18 <LordAro> TrueBrain: hmm, maybe if GetAircraftFlightLevel isn't being instantiated outside of that cpp/object file, as its only used in static functions
22:03:37 <TrueBrain> that is ... exactly what I say ...
22:03:44 <TrueBrain> but it has always been like that
22:03:46 <andythenorth> oof I'm pushing a jekyll site to GH
22:03:48 <TrueBrain> so either icc is broken since 2014
22:03:51 <michi_cc> andythenorth: That site is a nice read, but he somewhat misses the point but looking a lot at pools, core/*.hpp and other files, but nothing at all about anything that comes close to gameplay.
22:03:53 <TrueBrain> or I am missing something
22:03:54 <andythenorth> how hard can it be to publish GH pages?
22:04:10 <andythenorth> michi_cc: any bids on anything better? :)
22:04:12 <LordAro> TrueBrain: slight differences in how ICC generates object files, probably
22:04:15 <criador15> glx function ProgressiveMode::Modal(text,signLocation){ this.Sleep(100); local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF); GSSign.BuildSign(signLocation,text); GSLog.Info(GSError.GetLastErrorString()); }
22:04:32 <TrueBrain> well, did my best explaining what I think happens in the commit :D
22:04:40 <TrueBrain> (which you clearly hadnt read yet :P :P)
22:05:30 <glx> criador15: COMPANY_SELF is not valid there
22:06:02 <glx> only COMPANY_FIRST to COMPANY_LAST
22:06:15 <criador15> i put 1 and it still not valid
22:07:13 <criador15> if i am using multiplayer, should use what?
22:07:38 <glx> but GS can already build it's own signs
22:07:56 <glx> no need to impersonate a company for that
22:08:58 <criador15> but i cannot delete it
22:09:04 <criador15> and the player cannot too
22:09:27 <glx> hmm the GS should be able to delete its own signs
22:09:55 <criador15> yep, but i want player input using signs
22:10:17 <criador15> thanks man, its working
22:10:25 <nielsm> you don't need to act as a company to read others' signs
22:10:36 <glx> ah ok so use the company_id of the player you want to communicate to
22:10:53 <criador15> but need to remove it
22:11:31 <criador15> like the Beginner_Tutorial__Game_Script use
22:11:48 <criador15> or maybe i am confuse about the GS
22:12:47 <peter1138> criador15, you can delete anyone's signs.
22:12:50 <andythenorth> hmm, maye I need an ftp site :P
22:13:14 <criador15> filezilla should be useful
22:13:19 <TrueBrain> cool, CMake can even generate NSIS and deb ... source tarballs .. rpm ..
22:13:25 <andythenorth> well I have used GH pages
22:14:03 <criador15> peter1138 i want to use sign as player input, and the player can only remove the sign it placed
22:14:49 <andythenorth> I could open a port on my router and let you look at my site from my laptop :P
22:15:39 <criador15> upload it on a free hosting site and then close when you done
22:16:16 <criador15> disable ctrl keys input and mouse right click, and toolbar and the save site function and you will be okay
22:16:24 <criador15> in resume, dont do that is more secure
22:18:08 <criador15> how i know vehicle types?
22:18:27 <criador15> the data, airplane data type, trains , bus and ships?
22:18:44 <glx> ok using a macro for the timestamp thing is not that easy, cmake_parse_arguments merges all command lines
22:20:23 <andythenorth> is that still relevant?
22:20:55 <andythenorth> under "Compiling"
22:21:16 <TrueBrain> missing allegro and fluidsynth
22:24:02 <andythenorth> but we'd keep this in repo docs?
22:24:08 <andythenorth> it goes out with specific releases?
22:24:21 <andythenorth> the website page I'm making basically points to other locations
22:27:41 <LordAro> it's quite common for project websites to list their dependencies
22:27:45 <LordAro> i don't have an issue with it
22:28:36 <peter1138> Normal and correct.
22:30:48 <LordAro> one is before you decide to download it, the other after
22:30:54 <andythenorth> because duplicating information manually is good?
22:31:04 <LordAro> how would you suggest automating it?
22:31:19 <LordAro> i can't see a way that's not TMWFTLB
22:31:27 <peter1138> Then link to that from the website.
22:31:36 <TrueBrain> wow, the CPack stuff is really good .. we only have this extra step in NSIS where it auto-downloads some dependencies .. that won't work .. :(
22:31:50 <glx> oh I just need to insert a marker between each "COMMAND" and the stuff following it
22:32:17 * andythenorth wonders if we can teach GH Pages to actually do something useful
22:33:34 <TrueBrain> can I bribe someone to move the NSIS auto-download stuff into the game, that on first start it auto-downloads those? :D
22:34:13 <peter1138> It kinda does anyway, no?
22:34:24 <TrueBrain> kinda .. the NSIS supports a few more
22:34:35 <peter1138> Oh, different locations.
22:34:52 <TrueBrain> lol, I cannot run the setup because I have a newer version
22:34:56 <TrueBrain> cant even downgrade via .exe
22:35:18 <TrueBrain> peter1138: OpenSFX and OpenMSX
22:35:54 <andythenorth> how do I fork OpenTTD again?
22:35:56 <peter1138> Oh, well you can download them in game, but yeah...
22:35:59 <andythenorth> I'm only allowed one fork
22:36:07 <peter1138> Why do you need another fork?
22:36:09 <andythenorth> sock puppet account?
22:36:14 <andythenorth> because GH pages is a twat
22:36:21 <andythenorth> it only publishes from master
22:37:40 <TrueBrain> peter1138: guess if we can let NSIS do by CMake, it is kinda worth it .. and a good look at our bootstrap code won't hurt either .. meh, I will toy a bit :)
22:37:48 <TrueBrain> but that might mean we can automate releases even further
22:37:53 <TrueBrain> no more bumping silly files
22:38:00 <TrueBrain> just .. based on tag ... MAGIC
22:41:26 <TrueBrain> right, off to bed for me
22:44:16 <andythenorth> which could be manually maintained for now
22:45:46 <peter1138> Your own master doesn't have to track OpenTTD's master.
22:46:28 <andythenorth> means if I make branches from my master, I'm going to make a shit PR eventually
22:46:31 <andythenorth> but that's fixable
22:47:49 <andythenorth> ok so we _could_ publish our docs folder as html more like this. file:///Users/andy2/workspace/OpenTTD.andythenorth/docs/index.html
22:48:46 <andythenorth> which means it would be versioned and in sync with development
22:49:47 <andythenorth> nml could do similar
22:50:07 <andythenorth> I'm sure there's a way to do it also involving Jekyll
22:50:14 <andythenorth> but I'm buggered if I can figure out how
22:51:33 *** criador15 has joined #openttd
22:51:43 <criador15> arrays in squirrel are equals to in java unless for the type?
22:52:10 <criador15> (there is something like ArrayList in squirrel?)
22:58:40 <andythenorth> should known_bugs.txt and friends be in /docs ?
23:06:27 <supermop_Home> I cant decide if I want to buy some kind of dongle to plug my monitor into this usb c hole on my surface book, or just buy a new monitor
23:06:43 <supermop_Home> andythenorth what kind of monitor do you have
23:07:28 <andythenorth> I live my life inside 13" screen
23:07:38 <andythenorth> I do a lot of window switching :P
23:09:43 *** criador15 has joined #openttd
23:10:01 <criador15> why i never use this : GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF with sucess? it always fails
23:23:38 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7383: Codechange: fix Intel C++ Compiler linking issues. https://git.io/fjvzw
continue to next day ⏵
