IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-02-15
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00:00:09 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #7224: Change: Use selected group as parent when creating a new group. https://git.io/fh7Sw
00:17:46 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7224: Change: Use selected group as parent when creating a new group. https://git.io/fh7S7
00:21:24 <peter1138> So remind me under what circumstances is forbid 90 degree turns for ships harmful?
00:32:21 <Samu> makes my friendly rivers complete
00:34:15 <peter1138> Does forbidding 90 degree turns help that someho?
00:36:30 <peter1138> I'd think permitting 90 degree turns would help it.
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00:58:34 <peter1138> Removing the option for ships means it would always be permitted.
00:59:10 <glx> forbit 90° was a train thing anyway
00:59:45 <glx> and it's really the only transport type where it makes sense
01:00:24 <peter1138> ^ J0anJosep thinks it should stay.
01:00:26 <glx> I was already about to read it
01:01:04 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7232: Change: Don't apply forbid 90 deg turn settings to ships. https://git.io/fh79g
01:02:01 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7232: Change: Don't apply forbid 90 deg turn settings to ships. https://git.io/fh792
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01:03:41 <glx> wow YAPF had a no90 for roads too ???
01:03:52 <peter1138> It was there but never used.
01:04:04 <peter1138> Yapf has a load of cruft that's never used elsewhere.
01:04:18 <peter1138> Its own custom debug helpers.
01:04:23 <peter1138> CStrA, DumpTarget...
01:04:30 <glx> yeah only to slow down the compilation
01:04:54 <peter1138> They were 'borrowed' from ... smatz's workplace.
01:06:28 <glx> I personnaly can't read yapf code ;)
01:07:15 <peter1138> I sometimes wonder about changing it to follow our naming conventions.
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01:26:25 <Samu> I want to make it unavailable from 1.9.0 on
01:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, KUDr did yapf, not smatz
01:29:11 <peter1138> It did feel wrong :-)
01:29:17 <peter1138> Yes, definitely KUDr.
01:29:39 <Eddi|zuHause> he didn't even want to make yapf, he wanted to make PBS
02:10:20 <peter1138> Which he didn't do.
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03:37:02 <nnyby> when i enable zBase the menu buttons seem twice as big as they should be. is there an easy way to change that?
03:37:21 <peter1138> Yes, don't switch back to not using zBase.
03:37:42 <peter1138> They're not even twice as big, it's just a random size.
03:37:57 <peter1138> Somebody conflated more colours with larger... :(
03:38:11 <peter1138> Frankly the whole thing is ugly.
03:38:25 <peter1138> All the vehicles are too big as well.
03:41:24 <nnyby> hah interesting... yeah. this bus is driving on both sides of the road!
03:43:22 <nnyby> i usually use opengfx but once in a while try zbase. it is impressive. seems a shame to dismiss for these issues that are maybe fixable? oh well.
03:43:42 <peter1138> Sure. The source is in, er, mercurial.
03:44:19 <nnyby> in general i do like opengfx more, but it would be nice if the sharpness remained the same when i zoom in all the way
03:44:38 <peter1138> OpenGFX is still pretty ugly.
03:44:52 <peter1138> Original TTD is, of course, the best.
03:45:15 <nnyby> is that what you usually play with? i should try that. i think i first played openttd when that was still required
03:45:44 <nnyby> then when i saw opengfx i was like ehh, this will do. and then i just got used to it cause it's easy and comes with the game
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03:52:54 <peter1138> So that's an interesting thing...
04:06:05 <peter1138> Well shit, I got it working...
04:08:05 <nnyby> haha wow, openttd with vector graphics?
04:08:26 <peter1138> I'd say render to normal sprites, but yeah.
04:08:37 <nnyby> yea these original graphics and sound sets are really great i forgot about these. using these from now on
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04:27:03 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7232: Change: Don't apply forbid 90 deg turn settings to ships. https://git.io/fh7QZ
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08:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't decipher what this last NRT update failed on. bunch of squirrel warnings and a linker error which is too long to display, but the silly azure log has no linebreak feature and i don't see a "view as text file" link
08:40:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: there are artifacts you can download
08:40:53 <andythenorth> top right 'All logs'
08:41:11 <andythenorth> I can't give you the link because Azure isn't written sensibly
08:41:42 <andythenorth> dunno if that helps though
08:41:57 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a format=txt?
08:43:35 <peter1138> Yeah, fails for me. Strange.
08:45:16 <peter1138> Well, I know why, but it did work for me last night, but now it edoesn't :p
08:45:20 <peter1138> Ok so it was a bit late.
09:02:22 <peter1138> See, no errors now :)
09:04:42 <peter1138> Mmm fresh raw milk.
09:07:57 <andythenorth> vehicle variants for 1.9.0? o_O
09:17:48 <peter1138> Unlikely. It's not as ready as NRT is.
09:17:54 <Pikka> andythenorth: no mail in hsts
09:18:48 <peter1138> Bit small for a baseset ;(
09:19:03 <andythenorth> do I need a high speed mail car then? :P
09:19:12 <andythenorth> what about pax in HSTs? :P
09:19:32 <Pikka> only livestock and copper ore
09:20:28 <peter1138> Big cyclists though.
09:26:21 <andythenorth> HSTs with distributed power? :P
09:29:04 <andythenorth> ha ha, I found PACERS.grf
09:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know all that much about british trains, but i don't think pacers fall into the "HST" category :p
09:38:38 <andythenorth> so apparently Horse is broken with daylength
09:38:56 <peter1138> I think you mean daylength is broken.
09:39:44 <Eddi|zuHause> somehow my brain has learned to skip any sentence andy says which contains the word "broken"
09:40:13 <andythenorth> what's the point of daylength again?
09:40:16 <andythenorth> someone must know?
09:40:54 <andythenorth> is it just to have steam trains indefinitely?
09:41:04 <Eddi|zuHause> longer playtime with steam, mostly
09:41:24 <Eddi|zuHause> no, not "indefinitely"
09:42:13 <andythenorth> so not just "vehicles don't expire"?
09:42:32 <Eddi|zuHause> no... that is really "broken"...
09:42:48 <andythenorth> so Horse generations are 30 years apart
09:43:00 <andythenorth> so a parameter to set generation length, just a number?
09:43:17 <andythenorth> because daylength
09:43:30 <andythenorth> because it's a major issue for forums players?
09:43:45 <andythenorth> I can't get to 5 answers :(
09:44:18 <Eddi|zuHause> all i heard so far was crazy nonsense that doesn't make sense
09:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> to which the correct response is usually "do nothing"
09:46:28 <andythenorth> 2204 forum results
09:46:35 <andythenorth> ok so it's used to fix cdist
09:47:56 <andythenorth> it's used to make tiles closer to real scale
09:48:13 <andythenorth> no, read what Leif says :)
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09:48:30 <andythenorth> seems that daylength makes tiles 18km wide
09:48:36 <andythenorth> that's apparently important
09:49:00 <andythenorth> "Change: Decouple GUI timing from game ticks (#6780)" : "Hopefully, this is the first step towards a real variable daylength."
09:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "Change: work on a cure for cancer" - "hopefully that will solve the zombie apocalypse"?!?
09:51:07 <andythenorth> daylength is used to fix RVs
09:51:25 <andythenorth> daylength is used to make RL country scenarios more accurately scaled
09:51:52 <Eddi|zuHause> daylength has apparently suprassed "new map array" as the "fix for everything"?
09:52:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that mythical daylength will never exist.
09:53:07 <andythenorth> some guy in forums called Eddi keeps saying that :)
09:53:20 <andythenorth> I agree, I just wonder if I can do something amusing in newgrf
09:54:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that will end up in a horrible nightmare of "i want to combine X grf with Y grf but it doesn't have Z feature"
09:54:48 <andythenorth> so how about decoupling newgrf vehicle introduction from date?
09:54:53 <andythenorth> and having a tech level?
09:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and even if they both offered Z feature on the surface, the internals would be so different to be incompatible anyway
09:55:20 <andythenorth> hmm, I can do boats, trains, RVs, but I'm not doing planes
09:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the main problem is that the game has many skewed scale factors (lengths, timeframes) all mixed together in one ridgit framework, while lots of people want to loosen that up a bit with more free scaling of individual parts
09:59:41 <Eddi|zuHause> which is part of the reason why any previous daylength approaches failed, they wanted to consolidate this multidimensional balance problem into 1 dimension (instead of the current 0 dimensions), which is, as far as maths is concerned, equally inappropriate
10:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there need to be separate scaling factors for things like tech progression, payment graphs, timetable cycles, acceleration, industry production, ...
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10:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that is how every daylength patch so far failed, they saw how every previous attempt resulted in a complicated horrible mess that was unfixable, and went "we need to approach this in a more simple way"
10:05:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ... which almost immediately collided with the reality that everyone who wants daylength wants it for some slightly different purpose
10:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> which again added complicated horrible mess
10:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to approach it as a complex problem from the start, and break it down into individual problems
10:06:38 <andythenorth> does 'why?' even matter?
10:06:59 <andythenorth> but 'why?' is only helpful to meet a user need
10:07:05 <andythenorth> and the user needs are so confused...
10:07:23 <andythenorth> isn't 'why?' > 'because we can' ??
10:07:25 <Eddi|zuHause> which is exactly why you need to explore the "why?"
10:07:26 <andythenorth> except we can't :)
10:08:00 <andythenorth> if we approached this as 'game time should pass at an arbitrary rate', is that a good 'why?'
10:08:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to be clear on which section of this multidimensional problem you want to solve
10:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause> because if you take a step in the wrong dimension, everything will fall apart
10:12:24 <andythenorth> so you think having one newgrf with arbitrary intro dates doesn't solve it? :)
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10:20:38 <peter1138> Well, actually I'm in the office now.
10:20:43 <peter1138> Better late than never.
10:21:04 <peter1138> I'd work from home but then I wouldn't get my daily cycling fix.
10:23:01 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7232: Change: Don't apply forbid 90 deg turn settings to ships. https://git.io/fh7DC
10:23:06 <LordAro> peter1138: pfft, you call that late?
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11:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting correlation: "on 19th april the GPS epoch rolls over to 0", "on 19th october is bicycle day" :p
11:29:15 <Eddi|zuHause> s/october/april/
11:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno how i got october
11:33:15 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7232: Change: Don't apply forbid 90 deg turn settings to ships. https://git.io/fh7bz
11:39:09 <peter1138> I wonder how much cruft, and performance, we lose if we converted yapf to use std classes.
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11:51:02 <Eddi|zuHause> what? get rid of 5 nested layers of templates?
11:53:46 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: implying std classes aren't also 5 nested layers of templates
11:54:36 <peter1138> Yeah but that's not our problem.
12:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd probably put yapf in the "don't touch it if it's not broken" category... you're probably looking at like 2 months of full-time dedicated work
12:07:57 <peter1138> Post 1.9, definitely.
12:22:47 <FLHerne> andythenorth: OTTD maps are pretty big, if you want to 'finish' a single-player game on even 1k*2k it takes real-world days
12:23:05 <FLHerne> (spread over several months of spare evenings, obviously)
12:23:51 <FLHerne> So without adjusting the flow of in-game time, you'd inevitably end up in 2050 before even really getting started
12:25:21 <FLHerne> My current game is only 128^2, 40 years in, and I'm still not quite finished connecting all the industries
12:27:04 <FLHerne> The "making passengers feasible with CargoDist" side-effect of the current patch is, IMO, a bug
12:27:22 <FLHerne> It's useful, but that's orthogonal
12:36:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so, did steam crash or did i accidentally quit it and don't remember?
12:38:27 <peter1138> FLHerne, what current patch?
12:38:41 <peter1138> FLHerne, oh, daylength...
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16:03:56 <drac_boy> hi there to anyone else who are getting a snowy head too :)
16:10:17 <drac_boy> so anyway just curious if its a best-try or is there sometimes some sort of minimum ottd version for to apply a new patch to?
16:13:15 <nielsm> patches are for specific versions
16:13:41 <nielsm> new patches intended for the next release version of ottd are written against current master at the time
16:14:06 <nielsm> and should be continually updated as long as they don't get merged, to ensure they can still merge after master has changed
16:14:55 <drac_boy> ah ok, just was trying understand the ongoing jgr thread so ty :)
16:27:29 <peter1138> Yup, they are effectively no longer patches, they have been integrated into his build.
16:39:35 <drac_boy> anyway got an apt soon but .. have fun with the fresh snow if thats the case for anyone in here :)
16:42:19 * andythenorth is in bright sun :P
16:46:10 <nielsm> it's almost looking like spring here, atm
16:49:17 <Samu> i dont know how to work with classes
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16:50:20 <Samu> I'm trying to figure out a way to create an array of airport routes for my AI
16:51:13 <Samu> each route would have a group, an engine, location from, location to
16:51:25 <Samu> i just... know it is done with classes
16:52:40 <Samu> is there a classes for dummies guide out there?
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16:56:54 <Samu> okay, I give up, before I lose my temper
16:59:23 <Samu> need to find a way to remove empty groups
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17:06:31 <peter1138> You can get a list of vehicles in each group, right?
17:09:57 <Samu> yes, but sometimes, i move vehicles from a valid group into a renew group to upgrade engine, and that group becomes temporarily empty
17:10:23 <Samu> but since I don't keep track of groups for each route, a new group is created after the upgrade
17:10:33 <Samu> and the empty group becomes left behind, empty
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17:12:32 <peter1138> Don't really know what you are doing :p
17:13:47 <peter1138> Delete the group when you move the vehicle out if it's the last one?
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17:14:10 <peter1138> Or periodically go through all the groups and delete empty ones.
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17:16:02 <Samu> ideally, I would move back the vehicles to the group they belonged in the first place
17:16:06 <Samu> after the engine upgrade
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17:16:25 <peter1138> Ok, so you need to remember which group it was in
17:24:49 <Samu> current solution: clean up empty groups (even though they're supposedly temporarily empty)
17:24:58 <Samu> and recreate a new group
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17:32:06 <Samu> if only autorenew/autoreplace didn't screw vehicle_ids...
17:32:21 <Samu> it would be so much easy
17:35:39 <Samu> there would be no need for renewal groups
17:35:55 <Samu> there would be no need to keep track of vehicles heading to depots
17:39:32 <Samu> next step is to create share orders
17:39:52 <Samu> it's currently implemented for road vehicles, but not for aircraft
17:41:43 <Samu> it really helped speed up road vehicle management
17:41:54 <Samu> I assume the same would happen for aircraft
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17:48:12 <peter1138> why do you need renewal groups?
17:48:35 <Samu> to know which ones are currently heading to depots
17:48:42 <Samu> so I don't repeat sending them to depots
17:48:53 <peter1138> are you using sub-groups?
17:48:53 <Samu> it would stop sending them
17:49:11 <peter1138> you could create your renewal group as a child of the group the vehicle was originally in
17:49:23 <peter1138> then it gets renewed, and stays in the renewal group
17:49:38 <peter1138> then you can move it back to the parent group of the renewal group, then delete the renewal group
17:49:48 <peter1138> there may be an API call or two missing to be able to do that currently.
17:51:40 <peter1138> ^ Yeah, actually it's available in that PR.
17:52:25 <peter1138> Ah, the matching call to make a new group with a parent is missing.
17:54:35 <Samu> return occupancy / vehicle_count; what if the group is empty?
17:55:10 <peter1138> I haven't tested any of these calls as I don't write AIs.
17:56:57 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7224: Change: Use selected group as parent when creating a new group. https://git.io/fh5f2
17:58:30 <DorpsGek> Samu: Error: float division by zero
17:59:48 <peter1138> It's okay, it's a WIP PR :p
18:00:53 <Samu> current usage isn't displayed for gui
18:02:34 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7225: Add: Various AI/GS functions that may be useful. https://git.io/fh7Gz
18:04:51 <Samu> a useful function: get capacity of an engine reffitted to cargo_type
18:05:28 <Samu> get price of a reffitted engine
18:05:51 <Samu> useful for planning mode
18:06:01 <peter1138> players can't do that either.
18:06:48 <peter1138> you can't refit engines
18:06:51 <peter1138> you can only refit vehicles
18:07:58 <peter1138> the capacity can vary depending on the vehicle
18:08:04 <peter1138> the joys of newgrf callbacks
18:13:48 <Samu> isn't there a way to pseudo-"buy a vehicle just to get capacity/price" for engine purposes?
18:14:37 <Samu> how does cloneing a vehicle do it?
18:25:49 <Samu> about the 90 degrees... I don't know
18:27:08 <Samu> pathfinder will now attempt going at greater lengths just to avoid doing a 90 turn
18:28:52 <peter1138> i think cloning buys everything and then undoes it all
18:29:21 <peter1138> Samu, you can tweak the penalties, it shouldn't go too much farther though.
18:29:53 <peter1138> Maybe the penalty should be lower for ships, as they are slower.
18:34:23 <Samu> there should be a penalty going through locks now
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19:01:43 <peter1138> Kinda unlikely to find a shorter path except in test cases :p
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19:43:37 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #7224: Change: Use selected group as parent when creating a new group. https://git.io/fh7Y4
19:46:54 <peter1138> Ok, that was weird. Rebooted my Debian VM and it came back with... no boot device. WTF.
19:47:12 <peter1138> Maybe time to start doing backups of it :p
19:54:45 <peter1138> Why is it you only spot bugs after you merge? :/
20:02:34 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7233: Fix #7224: AI could no longer create groups. https://git.io/fh5TM
20:08:54 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7233: Fix #7224: AI could no longer create groups. https://git.io/fh5Tb
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20:15:55 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #7233: Fix #7224: AI could no longer create groups. https://git.io/fh5TM
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20:19:57 <peter1138> Oh right, I can see the 'draft' status in the PR list after all.... the merge icon on the left is greyed out.
20:21:02 <peter1138> Hmm, should I change the existing AI CreateGroup() function, or create a new function?
20:21:29 <peter1138> Former requires a compat addition, the latter may be considered wasteful
20:21:54 <nielsm> squirrel doesn't have optional arguments at all does it?
20:22:12 <nielsm> since that'd be the obvious solution
20:22:37 <peter1138> As far as I know, no :(
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20:25:56 <peter1138> Squirrel’s functions can have default parameters.
20:26:19 <peter1138> But I don't know if that carries over to the C++/SQ Api.
21:16:10 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7225: Add: Various AI/GS functions that may be useful. https://git.io/fh7Gz
21:18:27 <peter1138> Now you can create your replacement group as a child, and... then moved vehicles back to the parent group after replacement
21:18:52 <peter1138> Technically players can't see the group id, but they can see the heirarchy, so i guess that's fine? :)
21:24:04 <Markk> Just updated to 1.8.0 från 1.7.1 RC1, finally I can right-click scoll again, I've really been missing that.
21:24:58 <Markk> I haven't been able to figure out what it does.
21:25:38 <Markk> Or more like, I haven't done anything when I've been pressing it. Even under different cirumstances.
21:25:58 <nielsm> the square one restores the window size to the default
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21:26:17 <nielsm> and if you hold ctrl while clicking it, changes the default size for that window to be the current
21:26:41 <Markk> That's some great news for my OCD.
21:28:47 <Markk> Only thing I'm missing now is like two different levels to sticky windows. So you can have sticky windows, and more sticky windows. Would be great for when having some main windows and then opening some semi permanent windows, like when creating a bunch of new vehicles, when being able to close the semi permanent, but keeping the main ones.
21:29:52 <nielsm> that would be really hard to make a concise UI for I think
21:30:49 <peter1138> Was right-click scrolling now working?
21:31:37 <nielsm> win10 introduced a change in mouse handling somewhere that caused right-click scrolling to break, that's a long time ago
21:31:51 <Markk> peter1138: Yes, in Windows 10 there was some issues with that.
21:32:03 <Markk> I've not been able to use right-click scrolling for the last year or two.
21:32:13 <peter1138> I wonder what fixed it.
21:32:31 <nielsm> pretty sure a code change in ottd was required
21:32:46 <peter1138> c722cb26b8bc61d720c8a7a037e3c8639851599c
21:33:04 <peter1138> So the question is... why did it take you so long to change to 1.8.0? :p
21:33:19 <peter1138> Yeah, I remember working on that now.
21:33:30 <Markk> I've just gotten used to it.
21:33:38 <peter1138> Had the same idea as michi_cc but he got there first :D
21:34:42 <peter1138> Ah, 1.8.0 was April 1
21:35:09 <peter1138> At the end of that month, we also added a different right-click scroll method that doesn't fix the cursor in place.
21:35:25 <peter1138> Which I needed cos I develop under VNC :-)
21:36:06 <Markk> Oh, have I been so slow to upgrade... But I'm usually fine with the version I'm playing on, if there's not anything I'm really annoyed by. That's why I just upgraded, after reading some forum posts about the scroll issue.
21:58:57 <Samu> keeps openttd up to date and launches openttd
22:01:28 <Markk> Oh, is OTTD on Steam now as well?
22:40:06 *** Thedarkb1-T60 has joined #openttd
22:55:56 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
23:20:49 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] EarthlingKira commented on pull request #6965: Add: Option for population-linear town cargo generation https://git.io/fh5Lp
23:25:43 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] EarthlingKira commented on pull request #6965: Add: Option for population-linear town cargo generation https://git.io/fh5tJ
23:58:06 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #6965: Add: Option for population-linear town cargo generation https://git.io/fh5to
continue to next day ⏵
