IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-02-08
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00:00:36 <Samu> there is no stopping a GS from starting
00:03:24 <Samu> GS needs something similar to what's in the AI
00:03:52 <Samu> or else, scenario editor will always load and activate GS
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00:23:28 <guru3> what months does property maintenance come due?
00:24:45 <Samu> can't treat OWNER_DEITY as a company
00:46:50 <peter1138> Hmm, why do we need to introduce electrified road and non-electified trams
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01:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Hmm, why do we need to introduce electrified road and non-electified trams <-- because andy is annoyed of steam trams needing wires
01:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and maybe 3 other people :p
01:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause> also, trolleybusses which might be slightly higher requested :)
01:59:43 <peter1138> I think it's acceptable to require a NewGRF provide the extras.
02:00:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the precedence here is that openttd provides tram rails by default even though it doesn't provide any trams
02:00:52 <peter1138> Yes but that's historical
02:01:54 <peter1138> Well, I'll figure something out, but I dislike it.
02:02:03 <peter1138> Anyway, night night.
02:02:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fine with not providing them
02:02:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and andy probably went back and forth on this :p
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02:29:59 <Samu> gonna do what andythenorth asked
02:30:18 <Samu> i really have a tendency to put everything in the same pr
02:43:21 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7194: Fix: Remove desert around lakes upon generation. https://git.io/fhHqA
02:52:35 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7073: Feature: Generate lock ready rivers upon world generation https://git.io/fhuqz
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03:16:03 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7195: Change: Don't build town bridges in possible lock locations. https://git.io/fhHmC
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03:56:20 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7073: Feature: Generate lock ready rivers upon world generation https://git.io/fhuqz
04:03:37 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7073: Feature: Generate lock ready rivers upon world generation https://git.io/fhHmo
04:21:24 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7158: Add: Client setting gui.start_spectator https://git.io/fhSk4
04:36:43 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7195: Change: Don't build town bridges in possible lock locations. https://git.io/fhHYe
08:08:59 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7195: Change: Don't build town bridges in possible lock locations. https://git.io/fhHOo
08:26:53 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe I should squash some of these commits.
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08:37:28 <peter1138> Hmm, roadtypes only have powered_roadtypes, not compatible_roadtypes
08:37:31 <andythenorth> peter1138: the inclusion of ELRD, ROAD etc was frosch decision
08:37:37 <andythenorth> to keep parity with railtypes etc
08:37:40 <peter1138> I guess they are the same for RVs
08:37:59 <peter1138> andythenorth, sure, I don't like it so I removed them :p
08:38:37 <peter1138> NewGRFs can provide them.
08:40:08 <peter1138> It's a separate commit at the moment and I'm not going to squash it all until later.
08:40:21 <peter1138> So easy to undo if concensus is it's utterly necessary.
08:42:28 <peter1138> Oh look it crashed due to a negated test, maybe I should check the assertion is valid...
08:43:14 <peter1138> Does Road Hog 1.4.1 support the NRT stuffs?
08:43:25 <andythenorth> no there's a branched version
08:43:36 <peter1138> Ok, i've got that too, just it's older.
08:44:10 <andythenorth> there are multiple other grfs, vehicles and roads
08:50:57 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed pull request #7195: Change: Don't build town bridges in possible lock locations. https://git.io/fhHmC
08:51:33 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7195: Change: Don't build town bridges in possible lock locations. https://git.io/fhH3O
08:54:18 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #5654: Visibility of companies on graphs is not saved in game https://git.io/fhH3G
08:55:25 <peter1138> andythenorth, added a new tag for #7195
08:58:21 <andythenorth> now that 2.0 isn't NRT
08:58:28 <andythenorth> maybe we should fix water stuff in 2.0 :P
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09:11:43 <peter1138> I mean, it's just my opinion we should get NRT out sooner rather than later.
09:12:17 <peter1138> So, town road types.
09:12:57 <andythenorth> road types that towns can build?
09:13:17 <peter1138> As in, not always the first road type.
09:13:30 <peter1138> First available would be good.
09:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause> newgrf property?
09:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking something like: roadtype must have "town can use this" flag, pick the fastest, and among those the newest
09:17:36 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 updated pull request #7192: Change: making the style of MakeVoid calls uniform https://git.io/fhHUg
09:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like it should be a "Cleanup:"
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09:18:22 <peter1138> Fastest... maybe depending on zone.
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11:34:44 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhHZQ
11:40:45 <peter1138> Hmm, so the AI interface for roads will need to change.
11:40:54 <peter1138> This is kinda awkward :(
11:41:08 <peter1138> Can we have functions with optional parameters in squirrel land?
11:43:34 <LordAro> squirrel functions themselves can have optional params, but the interface cannot
11:43:59 <LordAro> (see the recent samu change for AIBridge.GetName)
11:45:15 <peter1138> Ah, so you need to create a compat function which calls the new method.
11:46:01 <peter1138> It's unfortunate that NRT is split into road and tram types.
11:56:58 <peter1138> The whole RTID is a bit pants, tbh.
11:58:49 <andythenorth> nobody's emotionally attached
11:59:04 <andythenorth> the nice thing about a long-running fork is that stuff can be tried, then binned
12:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> It's unfortunate that NRT is split into road and tram types. <-- the other option of freely combinable types might require 3 types on the same tile in some usecases
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12:32:56 <andythenorth> why is it so cold
12:52:03 <peter1138> Wet and windy here.
12:55:15 <peter1138> Damn, how can these Tesco granola squares be so high in calories?
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12:59:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the brain is incapable of correctly estimating the calorie content of foods that contain both fats and carbohydrates
13:08:25 <planetmaker> Are there things which naturally contain both approx. equally?
13:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's the reason why it's so difficult
13:09:46 <planetmaker> nuts seem to contain both
13:09:55 <planetmaker> but I can't think of anything else
13:10:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "Fett 53.020 mg, Kohlenhydrate 5.677 mg" <- i wouldn't call that "equal"
13:10:51 <peter1138> Yeah, they are low carb.
13:11:07 <planetmaker> hazelnut: 9 grams fat, 6 grams carbs from 28g total
13:11:21 <planetmaker> depends a bit at which nut type you look
13:11:46 <peter1138> Are they flavoured or something?
13:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno where you get your values from, my source says "Fett 63.300 mg, Kohlenhydrate 5.970 mg"
13:13:32 <peter1138> Bit more than that per 100g
13:13:57 <Eddi|zuHause> . being thousand separator
13:13:58 <planetmaker> random internet :P
13:14:24 <peter1138> But yes, that's low in carbs.
13:14:59 <planetmaker> ok, so it's unnatural to have both
13:15:10 <peter1138> Avocado is quite high in both.
13:15:43 <Eddi|zuHause> but evolution of mankind didn't really happen in the same places as avocados
13:16:24 <peter1138> 14g fat, 8.5g carb in 100g avocado. Not exactly high, actually.
13:16:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and even if you find that one food that actually does contain both, it's certainly not a stock food in most natural diets
13:17:02 <peter1138> And then there's cake.
13:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and then the cake was a lie
13:17:33 <planetmaker> the naturally occuring cake tree :P
13:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> *this was a triumph*
13:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> *i'm making a note here: huge success*
13:20:12 <peter1138> One of the few games I actually completed.
13:21:39 <peter1138> So anyway, I took only half of a granola bar with me...
13:22:02 <peter1138> It's now tiny, of course, and still super bad, but still.
13:22:09 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you take half of a packaged food?
13:22:42 <peter1138> It was a 4 pack, and it was in the freezer.
13:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> whenever i open a package of anything, it's immediately empty
13:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how
13:23:18 <peter1138> I couldn't do that with this, it'd be nearly the recommended daily amount in one sitting :p
13:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not helped by the fact that the larger packages are technically cheaper per gram
13:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but because they're also not lasting longer than the small packages, it's not really cheaper
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14:27:41 <Samu> you just ruined my other pr
14:28:21 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause YOU EVIL
14:29:03 <peter1138> Ruining Samu's other PRs, I dunno...
14:29:20 <Samu> just so it could be closed :)
14:29:49 <peter1138> 7073 is more reasonable.
14:30:01 <peter1138> I haven't look in detail though.
14:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that would make it even more important to split it off the other pr
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14:40:07 <Samu> it's kind of pointless to leave it open now
14:40:23 <peter1138> They are unrelated.
14:42:50 <peter1138> The thing with the rejected PR is a player simply needs to destroy the bridge themselves.
14:46:04 <Samu> hmm that could make towns look disconnected
14:46:35 <peter1138> It's the same end result.
14:47:02 <peter1138> What next, don't expand where a station could be built?
14:52:47 <andythenorth> didn't I close the PR for not building docks where a ship might go?
14:53:28 <peter1138> This was the blocking-town-growth-where-locks-could-possibly-be-built PR.
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14:55:50 <andythenorth> hmm, 4 hours is long enough to avoid javascript for
14:55:53 <andythenorth> now I have to do it
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15:16:30 <peter1138> I guess towns never need to build trams? :p
15:19:57 <Samu> because the town growth algorithm was taking care of it
15:20:28 <Samu> if a player manually destroy bridges, it may end up becoming disconnected
15:21:03 <Samu> it is always connected if it's done by the growth algorithm
15:22:44 <Samu> anyway, the reason I split was because andythenorth requested it
15:23:14 <Samu> for me it was one of those PR cases where they make no sense separated
15:23:39 <andythenorth> it makes no sense to nerf towns whilst changing river slopes :)
15:23:44 <andythenorth> nobody's going to approve that :)
15:25:11 <Samu> then why did you request it?
15:25:37 <andythenorth> where did I request nerfing towns? :o
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15:45:28 <peter1138> Samu, the point is seperate PR for separate things.
15:45:42 <peter1138> Samu, unfortunately you don't yet seem to be aware of when something is separate or not.
15:46:06 <peter1138> Samu, andythenorth didn't specifically request a PR for that feature, not did he not request it.
15:46:23 <peter1138> Samu, having it as a separate PR allows it to be evaluated on its own merits properly.
15:47:12 <andythenorth> I was providing advice on how to get 7073 through
15:47:21 <andythenorth> it's got no chance if it includes a town nerf
15:49:54 <m3henry> Towns are underpowered?
15:51:33 <peter1138> 7073 isn't rejected.
15:51:52 <peter1138> We rejected the town nerf.
15:52:21 <peter1138> 7073 is still open pending review.
15:52:46 <peter1138> You seem to have a very much "all-or-nothing" approach.
15:55:05 <andythenorth> I don't understand why refusing to nerf towns prevents fixing locks
15:55:18 <andythenorth> the problems with locks are almost entirely disconnected
15:55:42 <Samu> I was garanteeing the entire river being traversable by just building locks on slopes
15:55:57 <Samu> now, town bridges get in the way
15:56:10 <peter1138> And that isn't an aim we wish to persue.
15:56:29 <andythenorth> there are multiple other approaches we could take
15:56:31 <peter1138> But improving generation of rivers is separate.
15:56:42 <andythenorth> - traversable rapids for some ship types
15:56:58 <andythenorth> - changing river generation
15:57:25 <peter1138> And 7073 is the latter, now that it doesn't contain unrelated town nerfs.
15:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the way i see it, this generally increased the chance of 7073 getting approved...
16:01:49 <Samu> even if locks were 1 tile only, towns could still get in the way
16:02:25 <Samu> locks can't be built under a bridge
16:02:42 <nielsm> doesn't that happen in reality too?
16:02:57 <m3henry> Well perhaps allowing locks under bridges would be a better solution
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16:03:00 <nielsm> towns build something and then 20 years down the line it turns out it was a bad idea?
16:03:20 <nielsm> and now that thing can't be torn down because something else depends on it
16:03:33 <nielsm> and then you just have to work around it and make a less optimal solution to the new problem
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16:04:41 <nielsm> "towns may not do anything ever that may potentially at some point in the future slightly inveoncenience a player" is a bad outset
16:05:16 <nielsm> towns in the game are not a simple beneficiary to companies, they are just as much an enemy you have to barter with
16:06:22 <nielsm> because someone thought it would be fun to implement them in ttdpatch many years ago
16:06:37 <andythenorth> then I drew some sprites for ottd
16:06:38 <nielsm> they weren't in the original game
16:06:39 <andythenorth> they're kind of crap
16:07:10 <peter1138> Rivers exist to be an obstacle :p
16:07:19 <andythenorth> I just bulldoze them
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16:07:35 <peter1138> Flowing rivers, clearly.
16:07:38 <nielsm> yeah rivers are more of an obstacle than ever useful imo
16:07:57 <nielsm> if they were generated wider and had flow they'd be interesting gameplay elements
16:08:01 <Samu> the pr was a way to make rivers more interesting
16:08:17 <nielsm> no it was a way to make towns less interesting
16:08:19 <andythenorth> they need to start at coast and work up
16:08:30 <andythenorth> seed should be estuary point, not spring
16:08:39 <andythenorth> engineer for the result, not mimicking reality
16:09:07 <peter1138> pick both and make them join.
16:09:13 <peter1138> preferably terraforming along the way
16:09:46 <peter1138> Do rivery things such as joining and (rarely) splitting.
16:09:57 <Eddi|zuHause> there's loads of different and conflicting ways to approach rivers
16:10:01 <peter1138> m8 is probably useful.
16:10:06 <andythenorth> it's just a graph
16:10:09 <Samu> it would make towns more interesting for me
16:10:16 <andythenorth> there's even algorithms for river basins :P
16:10:22 <Samu> i could actually have boats going on their rivers
16:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "graph" is an incredibly infinite characteristic :p
16:10:34 <andythenorth> find a tile, pre-generate n branches
16:10:43 <peter1138> You just need to remove any bridges that happen to be in the way.
16:10:51 <andythenorth> repeat, building up, until all branches are built as high as they can go
16:11:40 <Samu> but that may end disconnecting a town :|
16:12:07 <nielsm> yes it turns out writing a good ai that mimicks intelligent players is hard
16:12:23 <nielsm> an intelligent player will make sure the town remains connected
16:12:46 <nielsm> (unless it would benefit them to break up the town, for whatever reason)
16:12:48 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: a simple tree, n branches at level 1, each branch has n branches
16:13:10 <Samu> there were still bridges being made
16:13:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: trees are not significantly less infinite
16:13:13 <peter1138> I think m3henry probably has the simplest solution.
16:13:21 <peter1138> Allow locks under bridges.
16:13:28 <Samu> just not in those situations where a lock could be placed
16:13:35 <andythenorth> well that solves a minor issue
16:13:35 <Samu> the growth would turn around somewhere else
16:13:44 <Samu> the town would always look connected even with the nerf
16:13:53 <peter1138> andythenorth, very minor.
16:15:56 <peter1138> andythenorth, and it's probably a 2-liner.
16:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i'm sensing clipping/bounding box issues
16:16:23 <andythenorth> more than already?
16:16:33 <andythenorth> it's probably solved in JGR already
16:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that's how JGR works :p
16:17:14 <peter1138> /* Disallow crossing bridges for the time being */
16:17:19 <peter1138> I love that comment.
16:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> well, we certainly discussed that back then :p
16:17:58 <FLHerne> There was a patch that created 'valleys' for rivers, where they were mostly 1 level below the surrounding ground
16:18:04 <FLHerne> (not the rainfall thing)
16:18:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it was mostly a "we don't want to bother with the graphical issues"
16:18:26 <peter1138> newgrf bridges was going to be a thing
16:18:27 <FLHerne> That made them a lot less ugly/painful, because you could build flat bridges across them in most cases
16:18:31 <andythenorth> rainfall rivers :P
16:18:33 <peter1138> I had a spec for it and working code...
16:18:44 <andythenorth> I did try making rivers flow from coast up
16:19:12 <andythenorth> rainfall rivers seemed to be boiling the ocean iirc
16:19:20 <FLHerne> I liked the idea, but could never get that patch to actually generate something I liked
16:19:41 <FLHerne> Er, yeah, that doesn't look too successful
16:19:58 <peter1138> The fact the patch has a manual...
16:20:00 <m3henry> Transcontinental rivers
16:20:23 <FLHerne> I do like its thing where rivers get bigger toward the sea
16:20:26 <Eddi|zuHause> "back when i dabbled in river generation (that was even before the current river generator was implemented) i found the river placement too restrictive. rivers should be able to be placed on any slope." <-- i think that still applies
16:20:44 <FLHerne> Having every single river be a negligible 1-tile squiggle is dull
16:20:48 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: a river is just a recursive tree, with occasional random direction change, and you like recursive trees....
16:21:17 <andythenorth> rivers should be able to go on slopes, canals even more so, but frosch points out that it won't work due to trackbits
16:21:23 <andythenorth> ships will fall off tiles
16:21:40 <andythenorth> same reason we don't have station on slopes perpendicular
16:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem is not the river being a tree (which is not technically a representation of real rivers, anyway), but the tree being "embedded" in a different graph
16:22:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and this embedding thing is the hard part
16:22:13 <andythenorth> which is the different graph? o_O
16:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in hardware design they have algorithms to route the "cables" through the chips in layers, splitting, and stuff.
16:23:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the naive approach to that is "spanning trees", the more sophisticated is "steiner trees", but it makes the optimizations vastly more complicated
16:25:32 <andythenorth> we probably talk at cross-purposes :)
16:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can apply the steiner tree problem to river generation, if you generate N springs and M sinks
16:27:01 <andythenorth> and then you're assuming pathfinding from one to the other?
16:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> to make each spring connect to at least one sink, and merges somewhere in the middle
16:27:16 <andythenorth> then the tiles are a walk along the pathfinder
16:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more complex than simple pathfinding, because the merging point can be moved
16:28:01 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yup, the ship is drawn over the bridge:p
16:28:43 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: doesn't surprise me at all :)
16:29:02 <andythenorth> I would generate M sinks, and each sink tries to create N springs, where N is local to that sink
16:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that might be simpler, but it might cause intersections
16:30:59 <Eddi|zuHause> as you have no geographical limitation of the springs
16:31:06 <peter1138> Damn, 270KB for that rivers_v61
16:31:42 <peter1138> Maybe we should take a look.
16:33:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: pathfind forward, don't join to another river?
16:34:50 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: ic111 said something like he considered turning it into PRs (starting with a simple dropdown for river generator selection) but then didn't have time due to work/life stuff
16:35:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that statement makes no sense
16:37:45 <nielsm> split the terrain generator into a wholly separate program!
16:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: i imagine that's not actually that hard
16:39:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the youtube approach: "there is nothing broken with our algorithm"
16:39:51 <peter1138> I have a separate program for it :D
16:41:14 <peter1138> Who decided to ditch png 32bpp graphics?
16:47:58 <nielsm> hmm, idea on how maybe tg can be fixed for tropic: generate two variations of the landscape settings chosen, one for mountaineous terrain and one for very flat, generate two maps with the settings (same seed), then select a line through the center of the map and make one half the flat version and the other half the mountain version
16:48:04 <nielsm> maybe with some interpolation between
16:48:28 <nielsm> (the original tropical generator always splits the map north/south iirc)
16:51:18 <andythenorth> just using the temperate generator 'fixes' tropic :P
16:51:45 <nielsm> isn't the problem with tropic that it occasionally generates too little or too much desert?
16:52:08 <andythenorth> iirc, the problem is that there's a transform somewhere that dumps the entire map to be flat
16:52:17 <andythenorth> it moves all tile heights down
16:52:23 <peter1138> My standalone generator created several maps and combined them all.
16:52:57 <peter1138> Ends up with bits being smooth, other bits being rough...
16:53:24 <peter1138> You can use the noise in the rough map to create rocks etc.
16:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: part of the problem is that TGP adds an additional step to flatten the landscape in order to create more desert. this step is apparently a step too far. i think it should probably have been removed with the variety distribution, as it is a similar thing
16:54:47 <peter1138> variety distribution needs to be reworked as well, though.
16:55:27 <peter1138> Maybe we should generate a heightmap around rivers.
16:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that doesn't address the rectangularness of the map
16:55:30 <nielsm> what does variety distribution even mean?
16:55:46 <peter1138> nielsm, it means the map isn't the same all over.
16:55:51 <andythenorth> it means you get to spend time clicking on settings
16:55:55 <andythenorth> wondering what they do
16:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: it's an additional overlay function that flattens parts of the map, so it's not uniformly hilly when zoomed out
16:56:08 <peter1138> However it was done badly.
16:56:28 <peter1138> It goes too far, it ends up being mostly flat :/
16:56:56 <peter1138> Maybe it just needs a better way to pick variation to even it out a bit.
16:57:06 <peter1138> Also it goes wrong on long thin maps, unless that was fixed.
16:57:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it was
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17:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so at a quick glance, the general approach of that algorithm might work, if you add some complications for using rectangles instead of triangles. you assign this river flow number and a direction to each tile this way, and then set a threshold for placing an actual river tile (this might be similar to the rainfall generator)
17:06:43 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
17:07:26 <andythenorth> obviously my interest was that it started from coast, rather than the details of the algorithm :P
17:08:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the foundation of the algorithm is a semi-randomized BFS
17:09:14 <andythenorth> breadth-first search?
17:18:44 <m3henry> Woo, another quality blog to put in my RSS reader
17:21:49 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: again, not really appropriate for a rectangular/manhattan distance map
17:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> (you get this problem a lot, where a solution to arbitrary geometric shapes becomes NP-hard if you want to apply it to a quantised grid)
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17:27:54 <peter1138> This could be an interesting ride home...
17:31:30 <andythenorth> wind at your back?
17:33:41 <peter1138> Partially, but gusts are gusts.
17:37:03 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, could be the basis of a heightmap type thing.
17:37:14 <peter1138> But until we have cliffs... meh...
17:41:26 <Gabda> i'd like to ask for some guthub untagging
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18:02:21 <Samu> i got a patch about waterborne industries
18:03:44 <Samu> "Allow company owned stations to serve water industries" - When enabled, industries with attached stations (such as Oil Rigs) may also be served by company owned stations built nearby. When disabled, these industries may only be served by their attached stations, and any nearby company stations won't be able to serve them.
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18:06:21 <Samu> any quick veredict before I commit too much into a PR?
18:10:23 <Samu> it would prevent much of st2 servers enforcings only ships carrying waterborne cargo
18:10:41 <Samu> would be a simple game setting
18:15:44 <nielsm> I'm not against the idea of it
18:17:42 <Samu> you rejected the exclusive part though, i think it was you
18:19:06 <nielsm> it would have to be done differently
18:20:16 <Samu> gonna see if the implementation still makes sense without it
18:20:16 <nielsm> exclusive rights with neutral stations should instead mean that only vehicles belonging to the exclusive rights company can load cargo at neutral stations (and yes, industry stations should then receive the industry cargo)
18:21:35 <Samu> but only the vehicle that bought the exclusive right
18:22:20 <Samu> perhaps i should do that first
18:22:56 <nielsm> in other words, exclusive rights should still be meaningful
18:24:12 <Samu> i'm gonna have to mess with cargo graph, cargo dist and all that, oh boy
18:28:19 <nielsm> okay looking through the patch file, it's another of those pervasive adding-an-extremely-specific-flag-parameter-everywhere type things
18:29:02 <nielsm> the kind that just explodes the cyclomatic complexity for small gain
18:31:14 <nielsm> I'd rather special-case industry-owned neutral stations versus player-owned regular stations and make them collect their acceptance differently
18:38:29 <nielsm> a slightly different way of explaining my issue with the approach is that it's a single, localized concern spreading a root network across a large part of the code base, tangling it in everywhere, exactly the definition of spaghetti code
18:38:48 <nielsm> long strands of separate concerns tangled together
18:47:50 <peter1138> I untangled some special-casing of road type 'ROAD' in NRT.
18:48:00 <peter1138> Special casing to make it always available...
18:48:20 <peter1138> Or we can just set the introduced year property to 0 and that'll do the same, with no special casing.
18:49:41 <nielsm> the best special case is the one that's not special at all, but just an application of a general rule
18:50:09 <nielsm> the second best is very pinpoint in implementation and easy to discover the existence and impact of
18:51:29 <peter1138> Hmm, there's already a bridge/ship glitch :/
18:53:07 <Samu> do you refer to addaccepted cargo proc with the on_water parameters?
18:53:52 <nielsm> Samu yes, and my implication is that the patch as it stands should be scrapped and the idea implemented again in a different way
18:54:19 <Samu> it's happening during tileloop. it's the tiles themselves that look for nearby stations around
18:55:50 <Wolf01> peter1138: you should give a try to astroneer, they released the stable, such shiny very wow
18:57:06 <Samu> maybe there is another way
19:00:25 <peter1138> Looks somewhat different.
19:02:54 <Wolf01> They changed a lot of mechanics and added some new stuff, like a tractor with trailer to move things around in the early stage, the solar panel array which takes a lot of space, the ability to print the habitat, it's RTG and the oxygen extractor
19:03:56 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Hmm, there's already a bridge/ship glitch :/ <-- ships are generally the glitchiest part of the game
19:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> because their bounding boxes are all wrong
19:05:09 <Wolf01> That's because nobody loves ships :(
19:05:20 <Eddi|zuHause> if you make the bounding boxes smaller, there will be cases where the ship is drawn in the wrong place, and if you make it larger, there will be more cases where the alrogithm is triggering undefined behaviour
19:05:22 <andythenorth> ships are the worst
19:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> ship must be made of several smaller bounding boxes that move in parallel
19:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat like CETS vehicles
19:07:39 <Wolf01> What happened to sliced trains instead?
19:07:58 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing happened to it?
19:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS demonstrated the concept, and to my knowledge MB somewhat adapted it to DBSet 0.9
19:09:31 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I'm lagging a bit... 1.7s
19:12:33 <nielsm> Samu: my idea would be to first modify station_cmd.cpp:UpdateStationAcceptance so it checks whether the station is an industry or player station, if it's an industry station then it just blindly accepts whatever the industry it belongs to accepts, if it's a player station it proceeds as normal.
19:12:33 <nielsm> second part is to modify industry_cmd.cpp:AddAcceptedCargo_Industry such that industry tiles belonging to an industry that has its own station never have any regular acceptance.
19:12:33 <nielsm> third part is to modify industry_cmd.cpp:TransportIndustryGoods so industries with their own station only deliver production to that station and no other.
19:12:34 <nielsm> last is to modify economy.cpp:DeliverGoodsToIndustry such that deliveries to industry stations can only go to the owning industry, and deliveries to player stations can only go to industries without own stations.
19:13:03 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 commented on issue #7166: Inconsistency in closest town calculation with threshold https://git.io/fhHRX
19:13:04 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 closed issue #7166: Inconsistency in closest town calculation with threshold https://git.io/fhSzS
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19:15:50 <Wolf01> Something un-broke, 120ms stable now
19:24:01 <Samu> crap, 10 failed hunks, much has changed since then and now
19:26:54 <nielsm> may as well do it over, right?
19:28:38 <peter1138> I lost count of how many times I rewrote newstations.
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19:30:22 <Samu> i prefer to work backwards
19:30:36 <Samu> well, not exactly, but i want to see how it currently stands
19:33:00 <Samu> eww... afterload and saveload changed drastically
19:36:37 <andythenorth> on every level it's terrible
19:36:58 <andythenorth> I've spent an hour pissing around trying to fix draggables that stopped working
19:37:09 <andythenorth> turns out there's a bug in an unrelated script in the page
19:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but if you use <library flavour of the week> you can abstract away all the terribleness
19:39:45 <Samu> most of the failed hunks is because you changed uint32 into CargoTypes
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19:40:55 <Gabda> Tile virtual coordinates are really odd
19:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> loads of things in this game are very odd. can you be slightly more specific? :p
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20:12:23 <Samu> the "blindly" part is confusing me
20:13:48 <Wolf01> Lesson learned: don't play with router if you don't know how to set strange things
20:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> worst part is trying to google strange settings when your internet doesn't work :p
20:15:52 <Wolf01> The funny part is that I set it up succesfully before changing to the current setup, not it seem to block everything going outside if I enable it
20:30:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i must have caught peak hour at the kebab store, because i waited forever
20:30:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i considered skipping
20:30:51 <Eddi|zuHause> was around 18:00
20:36:12 <peter1138> Hmm, what to have for dessert...
20:37:56 <Samu> hmm the on_water information still has to be passed to the industry
20:38:57 <Samu> if it's not passed, what could be done
20:39:47 <Samu> the industry checks itself if it has a station attached to it
20:40:44 <Samu> but... some information about the station doing the request
20:45:23 <supermop_work_> Eddi|zuHause: i went to a 'berlin style' kebab place for lunch
20:45:56 <Eddi|zuHause> are there other styles?
20:45:58 <peter1138> Hmm, so a simple road type flag... "can be built by towns" ?
20:47:22 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, all döner places are like that
20:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and in an average city there are more than mcdonalds and burger king combined
20:47:51 <peter1138> Looks good, not like any doner here.
20:48:26 <supermop_work_> its not particularly cheap tho
20:48:27 <peter1138> Here our choice of veg is "lettuce, onion, tomato, tomato, coleslaw, pickled peppers"
20:48:49 <peter1138> And always in pitta.
20:48:53 <supermop_work_> it's certainly a trying to be hip place playing off the trendiness of berlin in brooklyn
20:48:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the further you get away from berlin the more expensive it gets :p
20:49:09 <peter1138> Hmm, how do pavements fit into road types?
20:49:25 <supermop_work_> agnostic about it
20:49:32 <peter1138> Wondering if zones shoulds should get their own flags.
20:49:32 <supermop_work_> thats what derailed it last time
20:49:40 <peter1138> Or maybe that's callback material.
20:49:43 <Eddi|zuHause> (you can easily see this in germany, as the further west and south you get, prices can easily double)
20:49:59 <supermop_work_> town zone for kebab flag
20:50:42 <supermop_work_> GS to pay 3x for doner kebab delivered from NE corner of map to SW
20:51:14 <andythenorth> kebab economy for FIRS
20:51:30 <andythenorth> I tried a town economy, but cdist wrecks it
20:51:39 <andythenorth> Coffee, Beer, Kebabs
20:51:56 <supermop_work_> maybe its time for mop generic industries
20:52:04 <peter1138> It's time to clean my glasses.
20:52:19 <supermop_work_> Importer -> distributor
20:52:21 <andythenorth> middle class needs
20:52:23 <supermop_work_> is the only chain
20:52:27 <andythenorth> Beer, Craft Beer, Ale
20:53:14 <peter1138> Should a town pick one road type and always build it?
20:53:25 <supermop_work_> peter1138: i used to think yes
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20:53:58 <supermop_work_> the build type A in zone X, type B in zone Y makes sense too
20:54:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "in each city we picked the 10 places with the best yelp reviews"
20:54:23 <supermop_work_> not sure if possible to leave that up to the newgrf tho
20:54:30 <peter1138> Yeah, callbacks could do that.
20:54:42 <supermop_work_> i wouldn't mind towns being different than each other
20:55:01 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i'd rather have it so each roadtype must provide a version for each town zone
20:55:12 <supermop_work_> i wouldn't even mind some towns not being alowed to build roads while others may
20:55:41 <peter1138> Towns have to have roads.
20:55:49 <supermop_work_> Town A switches from cobbles to asphalt, Town B keeps the cobbles, Town C only ever builds footpaths?
20:56:26 <supermop_work_> idk, there are too may mazes of 'nice to have' for town roads though
20:56:41 <supermop_work_> so best to pick one feature, and just move forward with that
20:57:13 <supermop_work_> whether its road type by year, road type by zone, or road type by town vs city
20:57:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that's up to the growth algorithm to decide whether to replace old roads, there could be a completely separate feature to randomize the "personality" of a town
20:58:03 <supermop_work_> best not to lose NRT again in a morass of how best to simulate the city's engineers office
21:02:33 <peter1138> It only builds the first road type at the moment, doesn't it?
21:02:56 <supermop_work_> whatever is labeled ROAD i believe
21:03:07 <peter1138> Nope, ROADSUBTYPE_NORMAL, which is index 0.
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21:15:48 <andythenorth> should I play a game?
21:22:23 <peter1138> Hmm, town building different road to the AI, so...
21:23:00 <peter1138> But... that means the flag is not working cos it shouldn't be flagged o_O
21:28:41 <peter1138> Did roadtypeflag bit 4 mean anything at some point?
21:29:06 <peter1138> Where is the spec at the moment, even?
21:30:09 <supermop_work_> frosch's is the closest to up to date i think?
21:30:26 <peter1138> Yeah, but where. I don't have a cluse.
21:32:43 <peter1138> that's ground types :p
21:34:21 <peter1138> Roadsides are always default?
21:36:24 <andythenorth> should I play the NRT PR?
21:54:05 <andythenorth> I need an industry set
21:54:18 <andythenorth> has anyone made one?
21:57:06 <andythenorth> maybe I play a tropic map
21:57:11 <andythenorth> then I can moan about the terrain
22:04:31 <peter1138> Station open for a month.
22:04:36 <peter1138> 190 passengers waiting.
22:10:38 <peter1138> Hmm, so var 44 contains the town zone.
22:14:03 <andythenorth> you paste that _after_ I start a game :P
22:16:34 <andythenorth> I guess to measure difference, need to repeat the seed
22:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that might be one way to test it
22:23:08 <Samu> found a bug on my implementation :(
22:23:30 <Samu> neutral stations could accept cargo of nearby neutral stations
22:24:03 <Samu> can't simply pass a bool
22:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the scaling for max map height in relation to desert height might need some tweaking too
22:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> at max height 16 i get mostly green, and at 32 mostly desert
22:31:02 <Samu> it's not enough for the station to be neutral
22:31:36 <andythenorth> I've failed to include NRT in it somehow
22:31:50 <andythenorth> probably because I tried to use branches in mercurial
22:33:33 <andythenorth> the old version works
22:35:43 <Samu> oops andythenorth your dredging site
22:36:04 <Samu> how did it create a station tile?
22:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: not even the picture on the box inflicts any kind of appetite
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22:39:22 <Samu> nevermind, I misread this
22:40:25 <Samu> just my short memory playing tricks on me, I even have this right
22:44:17 <andythenorth> I could match train livery to the industry colour :P
22:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: there's all sorts of wrong with this...
22:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> like it's the wrong kind of bread
22:47:16 <Eddi|zuHause> no 3 types of sauce
22:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and probably the meat won't have the right texture as it's probably leftovers-which-you-don't-want-to-know-more-about pushed through a grinder
22:52:12 <Samu> does fishing grounds accept engineering supplies?
22:52:49 <Samu> or is it because there's a dredging site nearby?
22:53:20 <Samu> not familiar with firs, but it's a good test
22:54:17 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, looks foul.
22:55:18 <Samu> yeah, this is definitely not the behaviour I was intending
23:09:05 <Samu> dang, acceptance may not always come from a station
23:09:51 <Samu> can also come from when I'm looking for a place to build a station
23:25:57 <peter1138> Hmm, I need a diagonal station :/
23:26:09 <andythenorth> diagonal station over diagonal bridge
23:26:21 <andythenorth> bridges in tunnels
23:28:26 <Samu> i need to pass GetAcceptanceAroundTiles the station index which pretty much goes against the point of that function
23:31:58 <Samu> it still has to iterate over the industry tiles
23:39:00 <andythenorth> stations in bridges with tunnels over them
23:39:43 <andythenorth> SYL is a complete fuckwit
23:40:07 <andythenorth> or has legitimate mental health issues
23:40:09 <andythenorth> one or the other
23:45:10 <peter1138> Who's good with AI?
23:45:19 <peter1138> I mean, how should the AI interface look? o_O
23:46:28 <andythenorth> who's good with locks?
23:46:36 <andythenorth> this river is all wrong for locks
23:46:54 <peter1138> There's a patch for that.
23:49:00 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry opened pull request #7196: Fix trains pending reversal + ordered to depot not behaving correctly https://git.io/fhH2V
23:51:03 <peter1138> When did the CI change?
23:51:53 <peter1138> m3henry, commit message style "Fix: ..."
23:59:26 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry updated pull request #7196: Fix trains pending reversal + ordered to depot not behaving correctly https://git.io/fhH2V
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