IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-01-26
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00:00:05 <andythenorth> cos it's probably a generic UI
00:01:56 <nielsm> that's not something I will try to fix tonight
00:07:17 <glx> nice it doesnt find the compiler
00:07:55 <Samu> hmm just got a non-conflict that should conflict
00:08:39 <Samu> im using v->dest_tile yet, but since it's added code, the conflict detector doesn't detect
00:09:10 <glx> conflict only happen when changes are at the same place
00:09:31 <LordAro> git doesn't care about the correctness of your code
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00:09:37 <glx> same as applying a patch file
00:11:36 <Samu> it was correct before the ship cache patch though
00:12:36 <peter1138> ^ any objection to me just inverting the test on L316?
00:13:05 <peter1138> I dunno about the operation of the algorithm, but it doesn't make any sense as is, at least.
00:15:41 <LordAro> peter1138: if it works, no
00:16:05 <LordAro> odd that it doesn't cause any sort of issue on linux
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00:16:28 <peter1138> No issues with MSVC except when compiled with debugging.
00:18:37 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7105: Fix #7098, #7061: Inverted test led to invalid iterator access. https://git.io/fhKnM
00:20:04 <Samu> i get the same crash message for... #7090 and #7091
00:20:29 <Samu> i believe it's the same message, it's on xtree at least
00:21:05 <peter1138> 7090/7091 don't mention anything about a crash.
00:21:20 <peter1138> So what are you talking about?
00:21:47 <Samu> maybe you didn't see them yet
00:21:59 <Samu> only crashes on debug mode
00:22:43 <peter1138> Well if you are using a version affected by 7098, then yes of course it will.
00:22:59 <Samu> no, it's independent from that
00:22:59 <peter1138> If you mean something else...
00:23:14 <Samu> crashes on visible list iterator
00:23:19 <peter1138> Then bloody explain it properly, and ONLY do it on github.
00:23:55 <glx> yeah the useful info should be on github, not in the chat
00:24:07 <glx> else it will be forgotten
00:24:20 <Samu> the comment is there since... yesterday
00:24:34 <glx> the comment is not explicit
00:24:55 <peter1138> You didn't add the assertion message you received.
00:25:03 <glx> if you can add the crash message do it
00:25:34 <peter1138> We are doing other things that checking your bug reports every couple of hours.
00:25:46 <peter1138> That's the point of using github, it stays there until it's dealt with.
00:28:52 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7091: Dropdown menu can set value to a parameter of a different AI https://git.io/fhKcu
00:30:32 <glx> ok now do it when running in MSVC ;)
00:31:15 <glx> runtime error window doesn't tell where the problem is
00:31:16 <peter1138> Agg, Fix #xxx, #xxx is not valid :/
00:32:06 <glx> <keyword>( #<issue>| <commit>(, (<keyword> #<issue>|<commit>))*)?: ([<section])? <Details>
00:32:34 <peter1138> glx, I think it needs Fix #xxx, Fix #xxx:
00:33:29 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7105: Fix #7098, #7061: Inverted test led to invalid iterator access. https://git.io/fhKnM
00:33:47 <glx> where is the mark in the window ?
00:33:56 <glx> the mark indicates next line
00:34:28 <glx> ie the one where the exectution should go if the call doesn't fail
00:34:53 <Samu> > openttd.exe!AISettingsWindow::OnDropdownSelect(int widget, int index) Line 550 C++
00:35:10 <LordAro> peter1138: i feel like Fix: #nnn, #mmm should be valid
00:35:13 <glx> I mean the line in the code window
00:35:46 <glx> if you double click on the call stack there should be a little mark on the left
00:36:12 <glx> in front of the line following the error
00:36:40 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7091: Dropdown menu can set value to a parameter of a different AI https://git.io/fhKcF
00:37:34 <peter1138> LordAro, I thought so too but it's not.
00:38:26 <Samu> it's iterating past the list
00:38:28 <glx> makes sense there's no checks at all
00:38:53 <peter1138> glx, yeah, it's basically already got invalid state at that point.
00:39:10 <peter1138> The context has changed underneath it.
00:39:19 <LordAro> Samu's doing good at finding loads of issues in the newgrf/ai config windows
00:40:03 <Samu> query box has a very similar crash, brb
00:40:08 <glx> you see Samu, even if we don't accept your PRs, your work is still useful
00:42:34 <glx> the dropdown should be completly invalidated
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00:43:13 <Samu> ew there's some missing steps there
00:43:22 <Samu> forgot the step that starts aiai :p
00:43:34 <peter1138> Yeah, I think you can forget about the specifics of the crash. The issue is stuff is not invalidated properly.
00:43:41 <glx> "After clicking Accept, the list of settings change to the new AI, but the dropdown menu is still open" <-- that's the problem
00:43:56 <peter1138> Just closing the window would do.
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00:47:42 <peter1138> Heh, baseset metadata is kinda slow with MSVC, but meh, better than those incessant changes :p
00:48:28 <LordAro> it's not doing it every build, is it?
00:49:21 <glx> for #7090 when you do 'set ai_developer_tools off' I think the tools should be closed
00:49:40 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7090: Query box sets value to hidden parameters https://git.io/fhKCa
00:50:23 <Samu> i posted pr's to address them, take a look
00:50:55 <glx> yes same problem, the iterator is invalid
00:52:25 <Samu> my patch requests: #7092, #7093
00:52:55 <glx> they are automatically added to the issue ;)
00:54:10 <fredcwbr-GO> Howdy, I'm a newbie and have been playing OpenTTD 1.6 for a while now. It's great fun. And would like to kick it up a notch, so
00:54:10 <fredcwbr-GO> where would be the right channel to get guidance on questions about playing a specific type of game scenario ? More specifically, if there is some GRF or other stuff that could convert cargo to ISOCONTAINER , and direct them to a destination ., :::??? is that possible / existant in openttd ?
00:54:32 <fredcwbr-GO> Thanks in advance for any reply.,
00:56:04 <glx> well there are newgrf displaying containers on trains for some cargo types
00:57:00 <Samu> I didn't add a PR to the newgrf issue because I hate newgrfs, kekeke j/k
00:58:01 <Samu> I actually didn't take a look at it
00:58:09 <glx> but I think the forums will be a better option for your question fredcwbr-GO
00:58:47 <fredcwbr-GO> Ok, .. Thank you very much.,
00:59:05 <fredcwbr-GO> I'll look into them... some in particular?
00:59:57 <fredcwbr-GO> Thanks, have a nice evening.,
01:00:53 <glx> you could also get some replies on this chan, but depending on your timezone it may be difficult, we're mainly in europe
01:01:22 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
01:01:35 <m1cr0man> just realized, is there a katamaran boat set?
01:04:42 <peter1138> Ooh, past my bedtime.
01:05:36 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7089: Crash when Removing NewGRF from Active list https://git.io/fhKWI
01:09:17 <Samu> i tied following how terraform_cmd works, it's quite complex
01:11:34 <Samu> oh, that kind of dirty is for repainting
01:11:46 <Samu> not the dirty i expected, well i didn't follow that
01:12:55 <Samu> shouldn't the tile height be set first?
01:13:02 <Samu> and only dirty them after?
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01:25:06 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7105: Fix #7098, #7061: Inverted test led to invalid iterator access. https://git.io/fhKWH
01:25:20 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7105: Fix #7098, #7061: Inverted test led to invalid iterator access. https://git.io/fhKnM
01:38:33 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #6682: menu bars disappear if enable windows screen scaling on high dpi monitors https://git.io/fhKl4
01:39:08 <glx> but I can't really test all this high dpi stuff :)
01:40:34 <peter1138> I fiddled with enabling DSR but that gets me to 3360x2100. Doesn't exhibit any issues.
01:41:47 <glx> well openttd is dpi aware, but I found something about GDI scaling
01:46:59 <glx> hmm seems we are not concerned as we use DIB
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01:54:04 <Eddi|zuHause> webcam but no mic?
01:54:16 <peter1138> Same as me earlier.
01:54:35 <nnyby> no audio, sorry lol. i have a mic, just havent set it up
01:55:57 <peter1138> I use appear.in for low-latency video stuff.
01:56:12 <peter1138> But twitch is not designed for it.
01:56:52 <peter1138> Hmm, window is no longer resizable.
01:57:08 <peter1138> It was kinda broken before, depending on what window manager is in use, but it worked.
01:57:45 <peter1138> Tiling window managers, woo
01:58:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't follow what's going on with the window sizes
01:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause> also, is that the game freezing or the recording software?
01:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> ugh, original road generator
01:59:21 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: check the webcam ;)
01:59:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and point-to-point lines :p
02:00:09 <glx> I'm no fan of the base grf
02:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> awesome video quality :p
02:01:55 <glx> depends on the upstream link
02:13:56 <Samu> Helicopters with 'service at helipads' enabled, will only do so when 'disable servicing when breakdowns set to none' is disabled
02:19:21 <Samu> when breakdowns are disabled, vehicles do not need to do the automatic service
02:20:57 <Samu> helicopters servicing at helipads breaks autorenew/autoreplace routine if they are serviced in-time before the end of service interval time
02:21:34 <nnyby> yeah, looks like that resizing thing needs to be fixed
02:21:38 <Samu> automatic service is never called due to refreshing the interval counter
02:21:51 <Samu> hence, autorenew/autoreplace never happens
02:22:41 <Samu> so maybe this is why I made that change
02:23:05 <Samu> to give automatic service a chance to get called
02:23:08 <nnyby> it's like picking the most similar size out of the set of possible fullscreen resolutions instead allowing any window aspect ratio
02:23:56 <glx> I think openttd supports any kind of "resolution"
02:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> "OpenTTD window can be any size, as long as it is fullscreen"
02:27:08 <Samu> i better write down this stuff before I get lost again
02:30:45 <peter1138> Hah, I remember looking at that ... a long time ago.
02:31:08 <peter1138> I wonder where my patches went... sigh.
02:34:06 <peter1138> Might be that SDL_ListModes returns a resolution list in windowed mode for SDL2, but not SDL1.2?
02:34:13 <peter1138> That would set _all_modes
02:36:55 <nnyby> yeah, that seems to be it
02:37:46 <nnyby> the sdl1.2 driver set _all_modes based on fullscreen status and i just missed that
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02:41:13 <nnyby> yeah that fixed the problem. think _all_modes is no longer necessary - just using _fullscreen
02:42:33 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
02:46:26 <Samu> too many boolean logic and disable not set to none too much negative logic for my poor brain
02:48:56 <Samu> trying to summarize, if there are breakdowns, helicopters will service at helipads
02:49:13 <peter1138> What was the bug number?
02:49:46 <Samu> which will ruin autoreplace if the interval timer is reset
02:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that. maybe more descriptive names?
02:54:18 <peter1138> FML I really need to sleep :(
02:54:39 <peter1138> And I don't think I have these patches any more.
02:55:30 <peter1138> Might've posted it on flyspray.
02:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> if you did, andy closed it in a "man, nobody is doing anything with that anyway" rage
02:56:28 <peter1138> 6493. It's not there, so I didn't.
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02:59:04 <Eddi|zuHause> unrelated, but isn't "European KDE Developer" like a tautology?
02:59:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like half the KDE developers are german
02:59:25 <peter1138> Samu, yes, I mean the work I did on it is not attached.
02:59:27 <nnyby> Eddi|zuHause: lol true :P
02:59:56 <Samu> don't worry, I worked on it, only to get it closed anyway
02:59:56 <nnyby> my girlfriend chose that phrase -_-
03:00:14 <nnyby> and im not really european
03:00:37 <peter1138> I already had a working fix :/
03:01:10 <peter1138> My "fix" was something like "if due to be autoreplaced, don't service at helidepot"
03:01:40 <Samu> meh, forget it, go to sleep
03:03:43 <Samu> the 3 commits that mention #6493 + the other
03:04:25 <Samu> that was my solution to the problem
03:21:49 <nnyby> goddammit my trains crashed. first time thats happened lol
04:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that usually happens to me if i do construction work near signals
04:35:14 <nnyby> yeah, that's exactly what happened
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05:35:36 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7106: Fix #7089: close NewGRF textfile windows when their data are invalid https://git.io/fhKuB
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08:24:59 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
08:29:24 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
08:32:04 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fhKwA
08:35:53 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
08:39:37 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
08:41:41 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
08:53:40 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
09:03:31 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
09:30:09 <nielsm> hm nope, vs2019 still failing build
09:31:40 <nielsm> okay upgrading projects to vs142 toolset makes at least some of them build
09:32:51 <peter1138> Damn us being economical with savegame versions. Version 182 is covers 3 separate changes.
09:33:29 <andythenorth> are we worried integers will run out?
09:34:12 <Wolf01> Let's do the no-savegame-bump-on-nrt mistake again!
09:34:16 <nielsm> it's 16 bit, should last a few months at least
09:35:00 <nielsm> and it produces a working build
09:35:09 <nielsm> I'll make a PR for vs2019 project files
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10:06:45 * andythenorth spends hours making group liveries
10:15:54 <Gabda> tiles with the same y coordinate are called row, column or neither (as column is only defined in viewport for 45° rotated directions)?
10:17:18 <Gabda> sometimes it is harder to find a good function name than to write the function...
10:21:42 <Alberth> don't think we have rows of tiles
10:22:22 <Alberth> in the viewport, we use north for center top of the screen
10:22:43 <Alberth> you can use x/y direction
10:24:01 <Alberth> or x/y axis, which is used in the map code
10:24:58 <Gabda> i want to find an tile while the Y coordinate is fixed (so the return value is the X coordinate)
10:25:21 <Gabda> and I don't know if FindXInRow or FindXInColumn would be better
10:27:04 <Alberth> too many uppercase letters :p
10:27:39 <Alberth> maybe you want to express the property of the returned tile?
10:27:53 <Alberth> ie FirstFreeTile or so
10:28:49 <Alberth> you usually don't look for a random y position
10:30:17 <Gabda> yes, I go through a lot of y positions
10:30:32 <Alberth> what do you look for?
10:30:32 <Gabda> FindXWHileY, or FindXWithY?
10:31:37 <Alberth> problem with such a name that it doesn't say what it looks for
10:32:04 <Gabda> given two town, when selecting a row with fixed Y coordinate, find the X coordinate of the last tile that is closer to the fist town than the second
10:32:15 <Alberth> Do_x_with_y gives you no clues what the purpose is
10:32:22 <Alberth> where it comes in useful
10:34:17 <Gabda> yes, but with a given y
10:34:44 <Alberth> that's mostly an implementation detail, a way of finding the edge
10:35:14 <Alberth> 'town' is a bit ambiguous, could also be where the houses end
10:43:38 <Gabda> FindTownExtentAtY or ...InY?
10:44:43 <nielsm> or do you mean FindTownExtentYatX ?
10:44:54 <Gabda> and it would still imply that Y is fixed?
10:45:04 <nielsm> i.e. given an X coordinate find the extent of a town in Y dimension along that X ?
10:45:46 <nielsm> for searching along X with fixed Y, or along Y with fixed X
10:45:52 <Gabda> yes, such a nice description :D
10:47:37 <Gabda> I will with this one, thank you very much :)
10:49:27 <planetmaker> if you want the influence area of a town, maybe sth with 'local authority'?
10:50:17 <Gabda> I want the whole town area, not just the local authority
10:51:02 <planetmaker> the area of the local authority is always as big or bigger than the house-covered area
10:51:38 <Gabda> I am making the town Voronoi diagram
11:05:04 <planetmaker> yes, ok... so what about town radius?
11:05:19 <planetmaker> or town zone radii?
11:05:55 <planetmaker> also there is area which does not belong to any local authority
11:24:24 <andythenorth> ctrl-click arbtitrary counter? :P
11:29:12 <TrueBrain> Azure Pipelines can even forgot to queue some PRs if it took too long for it to queue ..
11:29:17 <TrueBrain> we had a 12 hour old PR that was not queued
11:29:19 <TrueBrain> but a 2 hour that was
11:29:35 <TrueBrain> I keep trying to find the URL that triggers the building :)
11:30:37 <TrueBrain> it doesnt suggest that changes anything
11:33:00 <LordAro> have you asked MS what's going on?
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11:35:09 <TrueBrain> many people have; their answer is that you have to visit their page once a day
11:35:19 <TrueBrain> but .. it is not 24h :P
11:35:57 <LordAro> that is ....not a proper answer for a CI service
11:36:30 <LordAro> i can't possibly imagine the people paying lots of money for pipelines have to do that
11:39:16 <TrueBrain> most also use it for their git and bug tracking, I guess
11:39:27 <TrueBrain> investigation is slow, as I need to wait for it to break to look why it breaks :P
11:43:45 <TrueBrain> so .... I tell DigitalOcean to scale up my k8s ... and nothing seems to be happening. hmmmmmm
11:48:21 <TrueBrain> the overview page does tell me it scaled up, but nothing really happens :D
11:59:38 <nielsm> lots of dumb little mistakes
12:00:46 <nielsm> so how's the cmake conversion going? :)
12:01:16 <nielsm> because I'm tempted to make some of those msbuild projects a bit less hacky
12:01:58 <nielsm> (at least "settings" to have proper dependencies, could possibly also make "version" depend on something)
12:07:35 <TrueBrain> you are going to port things to cmake I hear? Awesome :D
12:09:00 <nielsm> hah no, don't feel like learning cmake at all
12:10:01 <andythenorth> oof is Horse done yet? :P
12:10:07 * andythenorth running out of motivation :D
12:11:56 <TrueBrain> going to bring the new website online I guess
12:15:16 <Borg> fast question.. w/ GCC is best to compile OpenTTD?
12:16:27 <nielsm> Borg, our CI uses GCC 6
12:17:45 <TrueBrain> I am curious what is going to break .. but the only way to find out is to do it, I guess ..
12:17:56 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: should we make a news post about it, before we release it?
12:18:17 <andythenorth> I guess we should :)
12:18:19 <nielsm> TrueBrain imo yes, and make sure to tell users we do want reports about brokenness
12:18:20 <andythenorth> what shall we say?
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12:19:58 <nielsm> "Modernisation of the hosting infrastructure is proceeding, and we have just brought a new version of this main website online. If you find any problems with the new site please let us know at <places>"
12:20:13 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: lemme make a draft :)
12:23:22 <nielsm> "If you find any trains stuck at signals please let us know, so we can resolve the issue safely without risk of crashes."
12:26:00 <TrueBrain> that is a nice closing statement :D
12:26:06 <TrueBrain> okay, lets see how my news looks ..
12:28:15 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKP5
12:28:18 <TrueBrain> all from the github interface :)
12:28:20 <TrueBrain> that is pretty nice tbh
12:29:54 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKP5
12:30:32 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: anything to add to the post?
12:32:09 <nielsm> angry whistling over from the bird cage... should maybe let them out
12:32:18 <TrueBrain> just one big FYI: adding news and merging it, only makes it show up on staging. A release + tag is needed before it hits production
12:32:44 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I was hinting that you maybe approve it then :P
12:33:25 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth approved pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKXc
12:34:03 <andythenorth> I approve the 1.0.0 tag?
12:34:04 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKP5
12:34:34 <TrueBrain> I will wait for this news to land on staging, so we can check if it is really correct :D
12:38:50 <nielsm> actually it just hits me, there is no archive of nightly builds on the website?
12:39:04 <TrueBrain> nielsm: only if you know the URL, basically
12:39:21 <TrueBrain> but that is a bit hidden, yes
12:39:29 <TrueBrain> sounds like a nice PR, to show a listing of releases :)
12:40:00 <TrueBrain> as in general, people don't want a specific version
12:42:42 <nielsm> hmm "supported compilers" in README.md is woefully out of date
12:43:06 <TrueBrain> honestly, many things somewhat are :P
12:46:17 <TrueBrain> can a CNAME point to a NS record?
12:49:42 <TrueBrain> okay, TTL of 1 hour .. right
12:50:52 <TrueBrain> okay, it seems to be live
12:50:59 <TrueBrain> I cannot really test, as I have to wait for the TTL :D
12:54:37 <Xaroth> on the new site the serverlist points to server.openttd.org, right?
12:54:40 <Xaroth> if so, it works for me.
12:56:05 <TrueBrain> and if not? :P Isn't it more important that the content is correct?
12:56:47 <Xaroth> bit silly to test on the wrong environment.
12:57:15 <TrueBrain> a few 404s are hitting ..
12:57:37 <TrueBrain> no, it is in the /static/ folder
12:57:45 <TrueBrain> but some people always want it from the root folder
12:58:10 <TrueBrain> ah, and the download URL is not correct if you come in from google
12:58:19 <TrueBrain> did not expect things to link to that URL
13:03:13 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
13:03:45 <andythenorth> I got 9 links 404ing
13:04:00 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
13:04:16 <TrueBrain> (fucking cliffhangers)
13:04:53 <andythenorth> I can improve the issue
13:05:12 <TrueBrain> download-all will no longer be supported; I am fine with that
13:05:32 <TrueBrain> guess I should make the \w\w optional in the redirects
13:05:37 <TrueBrain> my regex foo is not that good
13:05:39 <andythenorth> some of these are links in news post etc
13:05:57 <andythenorth> I can fix the content, or you can fix the paths?
13:06:11 <TrueBrain> lets fix the content of the news articles to point to the new URLs
13:06:22 <andythenorth> I'll start on that
13:06:24 <TrueBrain> ideally, I would like to remove these redirects some day
13:07:16 <TrueBrain> ^/\w\w/download-stable/(.*)$ <- how to make the \w\w/ optional .. hmm
13:07:22 <TrueBrain> ^/(\w\w/)?download-stable/(.*)$ I guess ..
13:07:54 <LordAro> omg, website happened
13:10:20 <TrueBrain> testing is also releases
13:17:10 <LordAro> releases/latest, probably
13:17:14 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
13:17:38 <TrueBrain> (add /en/ between the URL to find out, btw)
13:18:02 <TrueBrain> okay, made the language tag optional for downloads; that should fix all 404s from the outside for now
13:18:20 <TrueBrain> euh .. this is wrong .. lol
13:19:09 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
13:19:33 <TrueBrain> now it needs a review :)
13:21:03 <TrueBrain> hmm .. this language tag is really annoying :D
13:21:06 <TrueBrain> why did we ever do that? :P
13:22:10 <LordAro> was there anything other than /en ? could just globally remove that then redirect from the "base"
13:22:17 <LordAro> might make things simpler
13:22:23 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6682: menu bars disappear if enable windows screen scaling on high dpi monitors https://git.io/fhKSh
13:22:25 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
13:22:33 <TrueBrain> LordAro: yes; others exist
13:22:54 <TrueBrain> but I wanted to avoid redirects from the base, as that might make future things annoying as fuck
13:23:06 <TrueBrain> for example, old URL is /en/news, new is /en/news/
13:23:13 <TrueBrain> for example, old URL is /en/news, new is /news/
13:23:21 <TrueBrain> so I am very picky on which to support without /en/ :P
13:23:32 <TrueBrain> and I am not aiming for 100%
13:23:42 <TrueBrain> but supporting google results sounds useful :D
13:23:52 <andythenorth> some kittens may die
13:32:10 <andythenorth> replacing a url in the wrong dir
13:33:33 <TrueBrain> LordAro: mind approviing/rejecting my PR? I really could use some second pair of eyes on it :)
13:33:42 <TrueBrain> I tested it, ofc, but .. meh :P Regex!
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13:36:26 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened pull request #44: Fix: replace outdated urls, preventing linkrot and 404s https://git.io/fhK9n
13:36:41 <andythenorth> most just find-replace
13:36:54 <andythenorth> one url took 10 mins due to user error :P
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13:37:32 <TrueBrain> hmm .. if we didn't have them prefixed with www.openttd.org, we would have spotted this on staging :D
13:38:23 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: _posts/2009-12-11-graphics-and-sound-replacement-complete.html <- should be nightlies, but meh
13:39:57 <TrueBrain> but yeah, some day we should just remove the www.openttd.org from all the URLs
13:40:38 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #44: Fix: replace outdated urls, preventing linkrot and 404s https://git.io/fhK9n
13:40:47 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
13:40:49 <TrueBrain> right, lets yolo this
13:40:51 <andythenorth> I rebased and everything :P
13:40:58 <andythenorth> squashed and reworded
13:41:03 * andythenorth no longer a git clown
13:41:20 <andythenorth> still all just branch merges at work though
13:41:32 <andythenorth> master, milestone, feature <- merges
13:43:22 <TrueBrain> so .. who is going to tweet this ?
13:44:40 <TrueBrain> lol .. I merged too quickly
13:44:48 <TrueBrain> it will first deploy a new version now, than an older :D
13:47:38 <TrueBrain> okay, this should be online in a few minutes ...
13:51:30 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: run your checker again! :D
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13:55:38 <andythenorth> so...does anyone know how railtypes work? :P
13:55:50 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: "853 of 853 links checked, 0 bad"
13:55:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so... does anyone know how metaquestions work?
13:56:17 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: cool, tnx
13:56:19 <andythenorth> I am considering a FEATURE
13:56:24 <andythenorth> industrial rail tracks
13:56:32 <andythenorth> RAIL can go on INRL
13:56:37 <andythenorth> but INRL can't go on RAIL
13:57:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: right question but wrong question :)
13:57:30 <TrueBrain> okay, only missing robots.txt now :D
13:57:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that would only make sense if you could give it some benefits, like behaving like road vehicles (no collision, signals)
13:57:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes wouldn't it
13:58:03 <andythenorth> so is it an NRT thing?
13:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause> well, we already have HEQS?
13:59:03 <andythenorth> my goal is specific to FIRS Steeltown currently, i.e. steel mill trains
13:59:13 <andythenorth> but I don't want to have to provide specific engines for the wagons
13:59:38 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhK9F
13:59:41 <andythenorth> if I could have cross-compatible engines, I just need INRL wagons
13:59:54 <TrueBrain> lol ... hits on dowloads.php ... that is 15+ years old ..
14:00:13 <TrueBrain> guess we can just say: fuck this :)
14:00:20 <andythenorth> we get Apache hits all the time for .php paths
14:00:26 <andythenorth> none of them exist, nor ever have
14:00:42 <andythenorth> we = work, not ottd :P
14:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: just drop .php ending with a redirect?
14:00:59 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I think I am fine with returning 404s
14:01:11 <TrueBrain> if after 15 years you are still using an old URL .. it is time to make you a bit more aware :P
14:01:49 <Eddi|zuHause> probably some automated script that even the author isn't aware of anymore
14:02:42 <TrueBrain> Tiny Tiny RSS is one
14:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so even if the redirect succeeds, the script will probably fail on the different structure of the page
14:02:47 <TrueBrain> and more of those bot-like
14:03:46 <Pikka> andythenorth: the biggest problem with coding railtypes is the number of people who will whinge at you that you're not using the "standard" labels
14:03:56 <TrueBrain> Load Balancer tells me the average request duration is 50k ms :D (no typo)
14:04:18 <andythenorth> isn't one-way cross-compatibility still impossible?
14:04:20 <TrueBrain> (we use keep alive between Load Balancer and httpd :P)
14:04:27 <peter1138> Pikka, 64 rail types!
14:04:29 <andythenorth> peter1138 was fixing that for railtypes :D ^^^
14:04:56 <Eddi|zuHause> huh? why would one-way compatibility be impossible?
14:04:58 <Pikka> does adding inrl to the rail compatible rail type list not work?
14:05:13 <Pikka> elrl and rail are one-way compatible :)
14:05:18 <andythenorth> doesn't it make INRL -> RAIL?
14:05:23 <andythenorth> we went round this with NRT
14:05:51 <andythenorth> making ROAD vehicles HAUL compatible makes all HAUL vehicles ROAD compatible
14:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: your main problem will be loading your railtype alongside a different trackset
14:06:25 <andythenorth> won't be my problem :)
14:06:28 <andythenorth> I don't use tracksets
14:07:03 <Eddi|zuHause> then it maybe is better that you don't make one :p
14:09:23 <Pikka> personally, I'd just add a steel mill shunter and keep the track types completely separate, if I did it at all
14:09:42 <TrueBrain> okay .. website seems to be doing fine. Traffic is up, no more 404s .. sweet :D
14:09:49 <TrueBrain> tnx a lot andythenorth for all the help with porting it etc :D
14:10:03 <Pikka> I mean, if your goal is to stop people running steel through passenger stations - with rail -> inrl, what's stopping them running their passenger trains through the steel mill?
14:12:39 <peter1138> andythenorth, yeah could do it now
14:12:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd just add the steel wagons to HEQS in both tram and rail style, and leave the player with all the options
14:13:36 <peter1138> I'm off to visit the MiL in hospital again, will be able to fiddle in the evening on the laptop.
14:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you want to make industrial rail, make it visual only, fully compatible with RAIL (and fully optional)
14:25:08 <andythenorth> so the main thing I want to solve
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14:26:23 <andythenorth> lots of Horse is fake, but it seems 1 fake too far
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14:28:58 <Wolf01> andythenorth, why you don't make 2 different grfs?
14:29:07 <Pikka> "solve" in what way, andy? wagon speed limits aren't enough?
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14:33:00 <andythenorth> they are, but then my network is messed up by slow trains :P
14:33:27 <andythenorth> in my happy fantasy world, these wagons are like Horse metro trains
14:33:32 <andythenorth> slower than normal, but insane capacity per tile
14:34:04 <andythenorth> but eh, I can't be arsed to draw a full set of wagons and stuff just for that
14:41:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand the problem
14:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you can build separate lines for slow trains even without there being a separate track type
14:42:42 <Eddi|zuHause> also, like i said, put the wagon into HEQS instead of horse, it fits much better there
14:43:20 <TrueBrain> 11 people already downloaded the latest nightly! :P
14:44:29 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: might be time for an announcement?
14:44:57 <andythenorth> oof I think my requests for steel mill trains in UKRS are why pikka made Pineapple and deleted all the trains :P
14:45:00 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah ... you properly want to go to www.openttd.org .... :P
14:45:09 * andythenorth might be mis-remembering
14:45:33 <Wolf01> It seem I should compose a new riddle for the announcement
14:45:50 <Pikka> steel mill trains are odd though
14:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: it's not april 1st yet
14:46:14 <Pikka> they're really part of the industry rather than "transport"
14:46:26 <andythenorth> I broke that with FIRS Steeltown :)
14:46:45 <andythenorth> you get to move stuff around between parts of the process
14:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll maintain that HEQS is the place for specialized transport methods like this
14:47:27 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I have no clue how to run something like webalizer over the new logs ..
14:47:33 <TrueBrain> and google is not helping :(
14:47:49 <andythenorth> are they not just apache logs?
14:48:03 <TrueBrain> just you would think others have foundout how to do that best on k8s
14:48:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I re-phrase my problem....
14:48:47 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhKQR
14:48:52 <andythenorth> - given a train grf that has a vehicle-and-railtype schema that appears to work....
14:49:10 <andythenorth> - where else can I insert more fun stuff without degrading the overall playability? :P
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14:49:27 <andythenorth> that is really the question
14:49:31 <Eddi|zuHause> how would that change my answer?
14:49:51 <andythenorth> I can't see how to make industrial stuff work except via NRT
14:50:05 <andythenorth> I manged to jam high speed trains into Horse though, with care
14:50:31 <andythenorth> conventional rail, no new types
14:50:44 <andythenorth> but I reset the speeds lower down the roster
14:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause> high-speed as in TGV/Eurostar?
14:51:09 <andythenorth> required rebalancing lots of other stuff, but works
14:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> a 1990 version and a 2020 version?
14:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds fine to me so far
14:51:45 <andythenorth> yeah, but industrial rail is unconvcing
14:51:57 <andythenorth> so I think I put it out
14:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say scrap all your ideas for industrial rail
14:52:33 <andythenorth> so is NRT done yet? o_O
14:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> make your wagons generic enough to carry all cargos in each generation
14:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say keep off on that until after release dust settled and people got time to consider bigger PRs
14:55:53 <andythenorth> so do we have a changelog for nightly vs. 1.8.0?
14:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the mirrors have changed
14:57:50 <andythenorth> LordAro: you started a changelog for 1.9.0?
14:58:47 <LordAro> still needs signficantly cutting down, imo
14:59:26 * andythenorth considering a forum post about what's in the nightly
15:00:51 <LordAro> and some changes, probably
15:01:30 <nielsm> and a crash bug in mapgen?
15:01:32 <andythenorth> I'm going to pick out a TL;DR headlines
15:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "Remove: PSP, WinCE support"
15:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> dangit, i wanted to try putting it on a WinCE device :p
15:03:40 <nielsm> hm do I still have a phone running windows mobile 7?
15:09:22 <LordAro> andythenorth: updated gist slightly to update it up to today
15:11:32 <nielsm> maybe put the added currencies together
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15:12:10 <LordAro> oh, forgot about the other one
15:13:14 <Eddi|zuHause> not having looked over the list, remember to cut out "fix"es for things that weren't broken in 1.8.0 yet
15:13:43 <LordAro> i think i caught most of those already
15:15:47 <TrueBrain> will take a few weeks before I get to that
15:19:05 <andythenorth> oof, isn't there an axle load feature in railtypes? o_O
15:22:03 <nielsm> oooh, idea for how to waste a lot of the free landscape array space for rail tiles: count how much load has travelled over the piece of rail, and on tile ticks that calculate maintenance costs include that load amount in the calculation
15:22:17 <Pikka> only in the "standardized railtype scheme" D:
15:23:37 <Pikka> "Still not convinced? Feel free to use railtype labels of your own, but know that you will likely come to regret that at some point in the future."
15:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> oof, isn't there an axle load feature in railtypes? o_O <-- not as a property, it's all "fake"
15:27:54 * andythenorth briefly considered a really over-powered version of narrow gauge
15:31:36 <Pikka> the narrowest of gauges
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15:33:18 <nielsm> is monorail infinitely narrow or infinitely wide?
15:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> have you ever looked at a monorail? it is narrow, but far from "infinite"
15:34:26 <andythenorth> the gauge though
15:35:00 <nielsm> and are those suspended monorails actually monorails or more like one-and-a-half rail maybe
15:35:51 <nielsm> and is a cable lift up a mountainside a rail?
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16:35:45 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] alexanderweiss commented on issue #6800: [OSX] NSScrollWheel event handling for 2D scrolling should use scrollingDeltaX/Y https://git.io/fhKFE
16:44:41 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] alexanderweiss opened pull request #7109: [OSX] Use high-precision scrolling properties for 2D scrolling https://git.io/fhKFD
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16:55:01 <Borg> techno electro.... yo yo yo.. ;)
16:57:30 <TrueBrain> so I see a 404 ... "GET /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.1"
16:57:33 <TrueBrain> so I look at the UA
16:57:40 <TrueBrain> "Gecko/20100101 Firefox/4.0.1"
16:57:47 <TrueBrain> yeah .... we are not the only one who can be slow in updates :P
16:58:38 <nielsm> TrueBrain, I think that's someone trying to exploit wordpress :)
16:59:21 <TrueBrain> we used to have that xmlrpc.php
16:59:36 <TrueBrain> it was used to communicate with the IRC bot
16:59:52 <TrueBrain> just no clue why any Firefox would ever reach out for it :P
16:59:57 <TrueBrain> especially one from 2010 :P
17:00:53 <nielsm> timing is _almost_ correct
17:00:56 <TrueBrain> okay .. now I want IRC notification when a new nightly is produced ...
17:01:01 <nielsm> and it also seems to sound right
17:01:44 <glx> that's something I noticed yesterday while working on newgrf window
17:02:32 <TrueBrain> nielsm: timing gets more and more off the longer it goes on :P
17:02:38 <TrueBrain> which gives a nice tune to it, tbh :P
17:02:45 <nielsm> TrueBrain yes my tempo is slightly wrong
17:03:07 <TrueBrain> nobody would ever notice it, if they dont put it side to side
17:05:34 <DorpsGek> nielsm: 0.997843831819
17:05:39 <andythenorth> Pikka: got any super zoom train progress then? o_O
17:07:59 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhKbH
17:08:08 <Pikka> only bits and pieces, andythenorth
17:08:33 <Pikka> only one more freight wagon to go and they're all at least partially done :D
17:08:48 <andythenorth> I am trying to get inspired to finish the Horses
17:14:31 <nielsm> but yeah I'm considering to attempt to make/find a full general midi patchset for opl3 synth and letting my adlib music patch also play back regular midi files
17:17:17 <supermop_Home> group livery huh
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17:21:06 <andythenorth> why doesn't the clone button show on vehicles if game is paused? o_O
17:23:34 <Samu> I don't feel confident of my code :|
17:25:20 <Samu> i guess i'm multi purposing the function too much
17:27:50 <Samu> if helicopter doesn't need automatic servicing but has a pending replace and service at helipad is enabled...
17:29:39 <Samu> ... then search for a hangar
17:30:06 <Samu> if helicopter needs automatic servicing but doesn't have a pending replace and service at helipad is enabled...
17:30:44 <DorpsGek> LordAro: V453000 was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 4 days, 1 hour, 19 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <V453000> :0
17:31:09 <Samu> ... and if there are helipads at the station, then don't search for a hangar, service at helipad
17:32:58 <Samu> if I'm not a helicopter, I am assuming that airports have hangars
17:33:30 <Samu> ... go to the hangar of the airport i'm heading to in the current destination
17:34:51 <supermop_Home> should I get an external dvd drive for my surface so I can install 10 year old version of photoshop?
17:35:38 <nielsm> I'd first look into capturing an image of the disc somewhere else and transferring it over network
17:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: external DVD drives is for noobs, i once installed win95 from a CD onto a computer with no CD drive, by copying the install files onto diskettes swapping back and forth with a computer that had one
17:37:49 <glx> yeah make an iso of the disc and get it via network, windows natively support iso
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17:42:47 <Samu> what should be the behaviour of helicopters that needs to service but have no pending replace and their closest hangar is in the other side of the world?
17:43:13 <Samu> assume service at helipads is disabled
17:43:18 <glx> destination too far, abort
17:43:46 <Samu> ok, then I'm in the right direction after all
17:44:42 <Samu> current behaviour makes them go to the other side of the world to service
17:45:50 <Samu> what should be the behaviour of helicopters that have a pending replace and their closest hangar is in the other side of the world?
17:46:17 <glx> same, if the hangar is out of range, it's too far
17:46:26 <Samu> oh, but it's a one-time service
17:46:50 <glx> the player should place the hangars correctly
17:47:29 <nielsm> if the aircraft has a route between stations with no hangars, it can receive no service
17:47:33 <Samu> you're aware that autoreplace/autorenew would never happen then
17:47:41 <nielsm> yes that sure sucks for the player
17:47:44 <nielsm> they should have been less dumb
17:48:37 <glx> helistations exist for a reason ;)
17:50:19 <Samu> hmmm but one could argue that aircraft can go anywhere
17:50:57 <Samu> and this a one-time service, it not going into a service interval
17:51:11 <Samu> but of 20 years or whatever their lifetime is
17:52:27 <nielsm> don't make vehicles go somewhere the player didn't want them to
17:53:33 <Samu> considering the current behaviour, it's gonna be a shift
17:53:59 <Samu> on master, they will go to the other side of the world for service/autorenew
18:04:21 <nielsm> if it was still possible to build a dos version of ottd (I'm not sure djgpp is updated with c++11?) I wonder if it would be possible to have it load and call the original music drivers...
18:04:48 <Samu> hum... the helicopter situation is very delicate
18:05:47 <LordAro> i have no issues with weird situations (i.e. the only depot is on the other side of the map), if just should be consistent
18:06:49 <LordAro> if there was only one train depot on the whole map, you wouldn't be surprised when the train made a massive detour to go to it
18:07:01 <LordAro> repeat for all transport types
18:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> IIRC servicing is skipped if the depot is too far away for trains
18:07:37 <Samu> but trains automatic servicing has a max cost
18:07:42 <Samu> yes what Eddi|zuHause said
18:08:06 <LordAro> well ok, aircraft should do the same
18:08:14 <LordAro> depending on what determines "too far"
18:08:45 <glx> I think too far should be the same as the distance check between airports
18:09:40 <Samu> it involves a lot of variables... the aircraft's own max range, the service interval being too short or too lengthy, the service at helipad setting, breakdowns enabled
18:10:11 <Samu> it's a mix of variables that would have to present an elegant behaviour
18:10:26 <LordAro> i don't think any of that is really relevant
18:10:32 <LordAro> just look at what trains do, and replicate it
18:11:01 <nielsm> step 1: ignore the "service at helipad" setting, pretend it's always disabled
18:11:01 <Samu> the own station having hangar or not
18:11:17 <nielsm> it's a bad hack introduced by ttdpatch which nobody should be using for new games
18:11:27 <LordAro> could remove the setting :>
18:11:39 <LordAro> everyone's always saying how there are too many settings
18:12:42 <nielsm> you can still have landing at helipads reset the service counter if the setting is enablæed, just don't take the setting into account for service planning
18:12:59 <nielsm> i.e. don't send a heli to a helipad (with no hangar) for service
18:13:51 <glx> service order should need a real service
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18:19:39 <andythenorth> could add high-speed railtype
18:19:44 <andythenorth> curve speed bonus
18:19:47 <andythenorth> fancy appearance
18:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just use nutracks?
18:26:35 <andythenorth> unrelated: why does the aircraft stuff need changing?
18:30:36 <Samu> more specifically, what peter1138 wrote there
18:30:57 <Samu> the service interval is the cause
18:31:47 <Samu> but more problems arise when the service interval is no longer the issue, like going out of the way to depots on the other side of the world
18:35:05 <Samu> i'm more inclined into allowing them go around the world if it's a pending replace, but if it's only a service, keep them in-place unserviced
18:36:01 <Samu> or service based on DistanceSquare
18:38:46 <Gabda> I've managed to do the town voronoi "map" :)
18:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> via flood fill or via triangulation?
18:39:22 <Gabda> all that is left is make the code presentable, which is about twice the effort of the coding...
18:39:58 * andythenorth has had a horrible idea
18:40:25 <Gabda> I cannot find the method of triangulation on Manhattan distances
18:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: voronoi really only works with euclidean
18:41:55 <andythenorth> so one idea was that we just be done with ship pathfinding nonsense on open water
18:42:03 <andythenorth> and add tile-based sea routes
18:42:09 <andythenorth> we can already build canal on water, so eh :P
18:42:21 <andythenorth> but do them like roads, so companies can share
18:42:39 <Gabda> you have pay to pacify the ocean?
18:43:32 <andythenorth> that wasn't the horrible idea though
18:43:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that would work, but you would give up the really nice property of "just slap down docks and go" of ships
18:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> which i would give -1
18:44:31 <andythenorth> it would only work if there was some kind of polyline tool, which I tried the patch for on rails, and dislike
18:46:15 <Gabda> Eddi|zuHause: I used something like the Fortune's sweep line algorithm
18:46:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it could work implicitly, upon changing ship orders, it calculates a path and then "builds" the ship path, then pathfinding only works on ship path tiles instead of open sea tiles
18:48:12 <Gabda> but I only kept the sweep line part
18:48:40 <Samu> pretending serviceathelipad doesn't exist is difficult... it is the main cause of this fix
18:48:49 <Gabda> fill everything where the line swept, and if a new town gets in, floodfill the already swept area
18:49:28 <Gabda> what functions should I use to measure the time of the filling?
18:50:33 <nielsm> you can add a temporary performance element there for your own testing
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18:51:36 <Samu> canal water is too alike sea water
18:51:48 <Samu> would be hard to distinguish
18:52:48 <Gabda> nielsm: it works with one time events as well?
18:53:03 <Gabda> I only want to print a runtime into the console
18:53:33 <andythenorth> so the actual horrible idea
18:54:04 <andythenorth> give train + road + sea tiles a 'wear factor' byte
18:54:16 <andythenorth> degrade it statistically as vehicles pass over it
18:54:28 <andythenorth> and in the spec, allow for vehicles with a negative wear factor
18:54:41 <andythenorth> allow maintenance cost to read the wear factor
18:55:04 <andythenorth> and provide optional tables for things like speed limit vs. wear factor
18:55:21 <andythenorth> also allow modifying a consist breakdown chance on wear factor :P
18:55:59 <andythenorth> so 'normal' vehicles increase wear, but maintenance trains, snow ploughs, dredgers ettc reduce it
18:56:30 <Gabda> and wear factor for rail signals, and after some time, they give a wrong signal?
18:56:49 <andythenorth> I prefer nielsm's idea of requiring signal boxes :)
18:59:09 <Gabda> Samu: how did you measure the time when you sent the ~5000 ships to the depot?
18:59:17 <nielsm> Gabda ah if it's not a repeating thing just do whatever I guess
18:59:18 <Gabda> with the built in framerate?
18:59:26 <nielsm> the <chrono> std header is decent
18:59:50 <Gabda> ok, thanks, I'll look into it
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19:11:00 <supermop_Home> why do lime kilns keep building on top of hills
19:14:10 <supermop_Home> andythenorth: give lime kilns an owner byte - every tick that the lime kiln is on top of the mountain increases a counter, when it reaches some value the manager has a nervous breakdown because he built his kiln in an inaccessible wilderness
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19:15:35 <andythenorth> supermop_Home: build canal locks up to them :P
19:15:40 <andythenorth> ships don't feel the gradient
19:19:25 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7111: Codechange: Rework automatic service for helicopters (#6493) https://git.io/fhKhu
19:19:43 <Samu> i tried to explain the best I could
19:21:34 <Samu> yeah, terrible terrible english
19:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: we used to have TIC and TOC
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19:28:45 <Samu> just edited with better english, hopefully it's clearer
19:28:59 <nielsm> also timestretched my output a bit to match them better
19:29:13 <nielsm> I think they're close enough to identical, so might clean up for PR soon :P
19:29:45 <supermop_Home> I really just need PS, ID and illustrator for a couple days to put together this donut kiosk design package
19:30:04 <supermop_Home> i guess i could just do it after hours at the office
19:31:12 <Samu> damn it, i always forget this aircraft_cmd.cpp:448:139: warning: '&&' within '||' [-Wlogical-op-parentheses]
19:33:31 <nielsm> it's a warning because nobody can ever remember which of those binds tighter
19:34:04 <nielsm> so everyone puts parentheses around the subexpressions to make their own intention clear and make sure they don't get bugs for misremembering
19:35:44 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7111: Codechange: Rework automatic service for helicopters (#6493) https://git.io/fhKhu
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19:38:05 <Simons_Mith> Looking at interest rates/inflation...
19:38:23 <Simons_Mith> void StartupEconomy() { _economy.interest_rate = _settings_game.difficulty.initial_interest; _economy.infl_amount = _settings_game.difficulty.initial_interest; _economy.infl_amount_pr = max(0, _settings_game.difficulty.initial_interest - 1);
19:39:28 <Simons_Mith> In english, inflation rate in% = interest rate in %, inflation rate for payments = interest rate -1 in %
19:40:02 <Simons_Mith> So if you've got an interest rate of 2%, doesn't that make the game harder than if you had interest rate of say 8%
19:40:38 <Simons_Mith> That doesn't seem fair
19:40:45 <nielsm> harder in the late game, easier in the early game
19:41:02 <nielsm> since interest rate usually only matters in the first few years
19:41:41 <peter1138> It's a bug in the original game, I guess. Easy settings make inflation hard, hard settings make inflation easier...
19:42:02 <Simons_Mith> When do you count 'late' game as starting?
19:42:16 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhKjn
19:42:22 <Simons_Mith> I'd have said after 75 years at least
19:43:29 <peter1138> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P7450 @ 2.13GHz
19:43:35 <peter1138> I could do with a better laptop :/
19:44:07 <Simons_Mith> I just tried a 1800s game with 2% interest rates and inflation on, and those settings started to hurt after just 25 years
19:44:27 <nielsm> I should probably go import the dbopl.cpp emulator instead, it doesn't make stupid DC offsets the ken silverman one does... https://0x0.st/sC6Y.png
19:44:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, don't play with interest rates before 1920
19:44:49 <peter1138> nielsm, you can filter the DC offsets quite easily, IIRC.
19:45:01 <peter1138> Most people play with inflation off.
19:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you need technological advancement to combat the inflation
19:45:08 <nielsm> peter1138 sure, but the dbopl emulator is probably more accurate regardless
19:45:16 <Gabda> Eddi|zuHause: TIC TOC works fine. How can I interpret the outcome? 5,3 million is small?
19:45:20 <peter1138> It should probably be changed to be more useful.
19:45:23 <Simons_Mith> Indeed. Or fix the bug.
19:46:24 <Borg> peter1138: what inflation is suppose to do? to the gameplay?
19:47:06 <Samu> inflation is fine if every company starts at the same date
19:47:24 <Samu> but if one picks up in the middle of a game session, it sucks
19:47:27 <Borg> I never use it personaly...
19:47:33 <Simons_Mith> I was pondering making interest rates variable in-game, y'see.
19:47:59 <Simons_Mith> I also know about the 170-year cutoff, because prices get too out of whack
19:48:40 <peter1138> Bah, laptop powered off :/
19:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (1.04/1.03)**170
19:48:41 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5.16820201339
19:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (1.02/1.01)**170
19:48:49 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5.33821002416
19:48:51 <peter1138> Borg, it adjusts costs to make the game harder later.
19:48:54 <Simons_Mith> But if youtook out the -1 in the infl_amount_pr, payments and prices would grow at the same rate and inflation would be mostly cosmetic#
19:49:05 <peter1138> Simons_Mith, quite.
19:49:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the long term difference isn't really that big
19:49:10 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 requested changes for pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKjr
19:49:30 <peter1138> I think it could be fixed by making one of the rates fixed, and the other variable.
19:49:49 <peter1138> So the difference is larger on hard settings.
19:49:54 <Borg> peter1138: hmm an idea.. instead of inflation... reduce payments slowly?
19:50:01 <peter1138> Although, I don't think those easy/hard settings exist any more :p
19:50:07 <Borg> so prices will stay the same... but game gets harder and harder
19:50:13 <Eddi|zuHause> there should also be a loan interest that is higher
19:50:36 <peter1138> Yeah, loan interest is silly.
19:50:54 <nielsm> nah you do want to increase costs rather than decrease payments, otherwise you get rounding errors becoming significant in payments
19:51:38 <peter1138> Yeah, our money values are integers.
19:51:46 <peter1138> You'd end up earning nothing.
19:52:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there was once a stock market in milan which crashed, because they used round down on everything, instead of common "balanced" rounding rules
19:52:28 <Simons_Mith> Can gamescripts change interest rates yet?
19:52:54 <nielsm> if you have inflation in costs and inflation in earnings pulse around an average at different rates maybe you'd get something slightly more interesting?
19:53:59 <peter1138> Yeah, variable rates would be cool.
19:54:31 <peter1138> The only thing is that in the real world, the transport company decides how much to charge.
19:55:03 <nielsm> did I ever manage to get a working login...
19:55:03 <Simons_Mith> I think I'd also increase the granularity on the interest rates to 1/4%.
19:55:41 <peter1138> Interest rates could probably be based on 100x values?
19:56:00 <peter1138> Pretty fine grained then, maybe too much.
19:56:22 <Simons_Mith> We use 1/4s nowadays, that probably fine enough
19:56:47 <peter1138> We do for bank interest rate, but if you wanted something based on stock markets...
19:57:17 <Simons_Mith> I was thinking, start a game in the 1800s, interest rate 1-2%, inflation 1+1/4 to 2+1/4
19:57:35 <Simons_Mith> Interest rates change only every few decades, maybe
19:57:46 <Simons_Mith> Then things speed up a bit after 1950 say
19:57:57 <Simons_Mith> and theres more and finer fluctuation
19:58:11 <nielsm> I'd say fixed values throughout the game, but a GS API to control them
19:58:51 * peter1138 recompiles and hopes the laptop doesn't turn off this time.
19:59:16 <Simons_Mith> But can't you only have one Gamesctript? Shame if you want Villages is Villages and 'realistic' interest
19:59:25 <peter1138> Yeah, that's a slight bummer.
19:59:55 <peter1138> GS is the right way forward though.
20:00:28 <Simons_Mith> Oh, that reminds me, on Gamescripts
20:00:51 <Simons_Mith> You can only have one GS, because we assumme there's a risk they'll conflict
20:00:54 <frosch123> Simons_Mith: when gs was designed, we expected people would start to combine multiple gs into one, like a "gs pack". but noone ever did that
20:01:31 <Simons_Mith> What if you could suspend a GS and then turn another one on?
20:01:31 <peter1138> if it's possible to run multiple GS, maybe we should allow it, but let users pick up the pieces? :p
20:01:52 <Simons_Mith> Say you run Villages is villages 11 months out of the year
20:02:13 <Simons_Mith> in the 12th month you run the mission GS or something
20:02:18 <peter1138> Not really the point, you'd still have one GS fiddling with things the other GS doesn't know about.
20:02:25 <peter1138> It's not that they can't run concurrently.
20:02:56 <Simons_Mith> Yeah, but if you have a GS that only fiddles with one tiny thing, then it can fiddle, then go back to sleep again
20:02:58 <Gabda> Eddi|zuHause: tried chrono as well, although it is subjective, the creation of the "closest town map array" it took: 512x512 map (400 towns) 1.8 ms; 1024x1024 (800 towns) 8 ms; 1024x1024 (1600 towns) 17 ms.
20:03:12 <peter1138> You can do that with them running at the same time.
20:03:15 <Simons_Mith> Not all GSs would conflict
20:03:27 <peter1138> AIs are capable of running 'concurrently'
20:03:40 <peter1138> Woo, it built this time :D
20:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: that sounds fine, if it doesn't have to be fully recalculated during the game
20:03:54 <nielsm> there's no way to know whether two GS would conflict, apart from some terrible kind of "capabilities declaration"
20:04:19 <nielsm> and that would probably also cause false positives and false negatives
20:04:23 <Gabda> it only have to be corrected when a new town is founded (but not recalculated)
20:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: main problem is usually adding/removing towns, mostly in the scenario editor
20:04:31 <Simons_Mith> Give AIs greater powers? that does blur the difference between an AI and a GS though
20:04:44 <peter1138> AIs are players, though.
20:04:48 <Gabda> and I don't know if it is possible, but it have to recalculated if a city gets deleted
20:04:52 <nielsm> an AI must not be able to do anything a human player can't
20:05:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: but a voronoi partition can be done incremental, so adding/removing only affects a small area
20:05:36 <Simons_Mith> Actually, humans can cheat, so AIs should be permitted to as well
20:05:38 <peter1138> They're AIs, they play a company.
20:05:56 <peter1138> If you want an "AI" that modified the game behaviour, then we have that, but we call them gamescripts.
20:06:11 <Simons_Mith> But you can only have one Gamescript at a time
20:06:31 <peter1138> It's better to allow multiple GS than to mess about allowing AI to do things players can't do.
20:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: you must modify the gamescripts into libraries to run multiple
20:06:45 <nielsm> a gamescript controls the rules of the game, an AI plays by the rules set forth
20:06:48 <peter1138> Ultimately, allowing the AI to do these things will just end up with AIs conflicting as well.
20:07:13 <Simons_Mith> We already have e.g. TownCars, a trees AI and so on,
20:07:35 <Simons_Mith> There are a reasonable number of non-competing AIs with tighly-defined behvaours
20:07:49 <peter1138> Yeah but that's all stuff players CAN do.
20:07:57 <Simons_Mith> And you have to manually cheat them cash so they can do their thing anyway
20:08:16 <peter1138> That makes it worse, not better.
20:08:26 <Simons_Mith> I'm just want to automate the cheating part
20:08:43 <peter1138> I'd like to see a PR that allows multiple gamescripts.
20:08:49 <peter1138> (Not saying it'd be accepted)
20:09:05 <peter1138> But that's definitely preferable to mucking about with AIs.
20:09:36 <Simons_Mith> OK, but let's pick Towncars as an example
20:09:56 <nielsm> it plays by the rules of the game, it just doesn't play to win
20:10:14 <Samu> PeterN commented 2 days ago
20:10:14 <Samu> I think this is too big with too many changes. Should be split into separate PRs.
20:10:26 <Samu> but then... andythenorth exists
20:10:33 <Simons_Mith> Why not: Turn cheat mode on for TownCars, than let TownCars give itselfs 10,000,000s?
20:11:05 <Simons_Mith> This is kind of a halfway house between a GS and an AI
20:11:25 <Simons_Mith> Not suitable for competitive AIs, but quite useful for e.g. Towncars, road builder AIs etc.
20:11:26 <peter1138> Why not improve GS, instead of adding bodges for AIs.
20:11:48 <Simons_Mith> There's more AIs already written
20:12:08 <andythenorth> co-operative multi-tasking GS :P
20:12:13 <peter1138> Have a GS that dishes out money to a TownCars AI, for example...
20:12:20 <andythenorth> did I miss a memo?
20:12:35 <Gabda> Eddi|zuHause: deleting a town seems trickier. the info on closest town is important in the scenario editor as well?
20:12:41 <peter1138> andythenorth, just trying to work out a solution that isn't a bodge.
20:12:59 <Simons_Mith> but you still need two GS script slots - one for the Sugar Daddy GS, one for whatever else.
20:13:13 <peter1138> 19:08 <@peter1138> I'd like to see a PR that allows multiple gamescripts.
20:13:14 <andythenorth> GS is pretty crippled
20:13:23 <andythenorth> and more than one is crippled
20:13:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: a scenario is a savegame, so it should contain all the information
20:13:51 <Samu> create GS's like they're libraries
20:14:54 <peter1138> andythenorth, you could've made a quick screenshot of the livery window changes while you were at it, eh?
20:15:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: really, just convert the GS into a library, then you can make a "Master" GS that calls both GS, and all the conflict resolution is in the hands of the programmer
20:15:08 <peter1138> andythenorth, instead of forcing me to download and compile it here, in gloomy Wiltshire...
20:15:27 <andythenorth> Wiltshire is lovely
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20:15:42 <andythenorth> you want me to screenshot?
20:15:45 <andythenorth> I'm only playing tanks
20:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: do not burden the user with figuring out whether two GS can be run combined
20:15:57 <peter1138> Ok, group-livery is not actually working properly at the moment. Damn it, wtf.
20:16:39 <Simons_Mith> Eddi: Currently that burden is avoided by not letting 'em do it at all.
20:16:59 <nielsm> the solution is to make a GS library that knows how to recognize silly AIs and to give them free money, and then petition other GS authors to call that GS lib
20:17:10 <peter1138> Urgh, I hadn't fetched from my origin, so it grabbed an ancient version :/
20:17:28 <nielsm> letting AIs cheat on their own volition is not acceptable and I will fight any PR that wants to allow that
20:17:54 <peter1138> And wouldn't be allowed in multiplayer.
20:18:03 <Simons_Mith> neilsm Quite a lot of people use AIs as helpers,
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20:18:33 <nielsm> changing the rules of the game is the domain of game scripts
20:18:53 <Simons_Mith> Unfair and inappropriate to lump 'Helper' AIs with competing AIs.
20:19:10 <Simons_Mith> They are a halfway house between a GS and an AI
20:19:13 <peter1138> I don't understand why it's better to add bodges for AIs instead of improving GSs.
20:19:16 <nielsm> AI should not have been a scripting system running inside the game engine, but a separate network client that connects to a network server
20:19:36 <nielsm> so they can do nothing but play by the rules of the game
20:20:07 <peter1138> Only issue with that is knowledge of game state.
20:20:17 <andythenorth> well that's easy
20:20:27 <andythenorth> just run them in an openttd client, but using a special scripting API
20:20:45 <peter1138> andythenorth, you could run them in an already running openttd instance, maybe.
20:20:47 <Simons_Mith> Twenty minutes' work, right?
20:20:51 <andythenorth> that was my thinking peter1138
20:21:02 <andythenorth> why do we need helper AIs?
20:21:14 <andythenorth> peter1138: also snow on tracks and crap
20:21:20 <peter1138> We've wasted longer than 20 minutes arguing against meddling with AI abilities.
20:21:33 <andythenorth> snowploughs, dredgers, etc
20:21:42 <andythenorth> 'wear and tear' counter
20:21:42 <peter1138> Hmm, should I go get a cider?
20:22:00 <peter1138> But it's from Aldi, so it's probably naff.
20:22:05 <Simons_Mith> Cider doesn'ty go with popcorn
20:22:07 <nielsm> Simons_Mith exlain why an AI assiting a player in some way should be allowed to do thing the player would not be able to (assuming the player is not touching ctrl-alt-c)
20:22:09 <andythenorth> vehicles have a wear and tear factor, can be +ve or -ve
20:22:14 <andythenorth> save it in the tile
20:22:24 <peter1138> I didn't bring any popcorn, though I almost did :/
20:22:25 <andythenorth> use it for silly things
20:22:52 <Simons_Mith> neilsm: because many people play OpenTTRD as a sandbox
20:23:02 <peter1138> So now I'm recompiling with the current version of group-livery, to make a screenshot, cos andythenorth didn't ;(
20:23:31 <nielsm> those players can write their own gamescript then
20:23:38 <peter1138> Seriously we will not ever add features to allow the AI to cheat.
20:23:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: "sandbox" is easy: load a price newgrf and set all factors to 0
20:23:52 <peter1138> But GS improvements are welcome.
20:23:59 <nielsm> if you're playing sandbox then use basecosts grf to set all costs to zero
20:24:26 <Simons_Mith> How does cost=0 let you bulldoze an industry?
20:24:47 <Simons_Mith> How does cost=0 let you make change over a large map?
20:24:48 <peter1138> Woah, where did bulldozing an industry come into it?
20:25:12 <Simons_Mith> Kind of thing you might be doing in a sandbox game, and want an AI to help you with
20:25:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: there is no way, ever, that an AI will be allowed to destroy industries
20:25:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: if you want to do that, just press ctrl+alt+c
20:25:42 <Samu> AIs can't really do everything humans do
20:26:09 <Samu> they can't retrieve refitted capacity of engines
20:26:28 <andythenorth> peter1138: it's a hard knock life, but you have Lidll cider, right?
20:26:32 <andythenorth> and I did offer :P
20:26:41 <peter1138> andythenorth, please do it. This laptop is shit.
20:26:44 <Samu> but they can if the vehicle actually exists (bought vehicle)
20:26:52 <andythenorth> should I cook chicken
20:27:00 <peter1138> Unless you prefer it raw?
20:27:19 <andythenorth> oops I need a new game
20:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> can Aldi and Lidl even survive brexit?
20:27:28 <andythenorth> my groups are called 'Red', 'Orange' etc
20:27:31 <andythenorth> which is confusing
20:27:56 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, of course, we'll just have to pay more.
20:28:17 <peter1138> andythenorth, yeah... I need the livery window itself :p
20:28:32 <andythenorth> I know, I just wanted to show off the rainbow
20:28:33 <Samu> AIs can't plan in advance, and most of what AI's do is plan in advance
20:28:35 <andythenorth> 'skittles patch'
20:28:40 <andythenorth> 'taste the rainbow'
20:28:46 <peter1138> Why can't AIs plan?
20:28:47 <Samu> well they can, but not as well as humans
20:29:01 <peter1138> That's down to the ability of an AI writer to actually write an AI.
20:29:14 <peter1138> Of course, that's Hard problem, which is why we delegated it to user scripts :p
20:29:18 <Samu> because they can't retrieve correct costs, correct cargo capacities,
20:29:43 <peter1138> I'm glad all these deficiencies are documented and reported.
20:29:46 <Samu> i can't get the cost of an engine refited to xx cargo
20:29:53 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but not paying more is the entire point of these things?
20:29:58 <Samu> unless i buy the vehicle and refit it
20:30:07 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, no, the point is BREXIT MEANS BREXIT AND WE'RE LEAVING
20:30:12 <Samu> but if i buy the vehicle, im no longer planning, im wasting money
20:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause> because of a <2% margin?
20:30:57 <peter1138> Samu, how does a player know how much it'll cost to refit without buying?
20:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause> which is technically smaller than the measurement error?
20:31:27 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE
20:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> also, the referendum wasn't binding in the first place
20:31:41 <nielsm> show me where it's displayed
20:31:46 <peter1138> Samu, why? How do they know?
20:32:06 <Simons_Mith> Yes, all 70% of 52%!
20:32:15 <Samu> not really by the game telling it to you
20:32:18 <nielsm> you mean to say an AI cannot remember things?
20:32:22 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, I'm obviously being sarcastic, I have no answer for you.
20:32:45 <peter1138> Pretty sure AIs can remember way more stuff than I can.
20:33:07 <Samu> yes, but they have to buy the vehicle in the first place
20:33:34 <peter1138> Hmm, what to have for dinner.
20:33:34 <peter1138> I'm thinking fish & chips (oven cooked from the freezer, not a takeaway)
20:33:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i have leftover bolognese
20:33:39 <Simons_Mith> Some poor blighter has to code it though
20:33:39 <nielsm> the AI would just have to check if it has seen the refit costs for a vehicle before, and work with that knowledge if it has it, and otherwise take a gamble
20:33:49 <peter1138> Samu, what do humans do instead?
20:34:03 <Simons_Mith> Teahing an AI o read the OTTD wiki would be a real challenge
20:34:03 <peter1138> Or do you mean we're able to remember it from a previous game?
20:34:08 <peter1138> (Cos I bloody well don't)
20:34:30 <Samu> well humans know in advance that for example, an aircraft reffited to goods, will have 1/4 capacity
20:34:44 <peter1138> Samu, is that always the case?
20:34:54 <peter1138> If it is, then why can't an AI know that?
20:34:59 <Samu> if an AI wanna get the reffited capacity of an aircraft to goods, it can't know in advance
20:35:34 <Simons_Mith> If I was coding an AI, I think I'd buy-refit-sell and get the price that way
20:35:40 <Samu> because of NewGRFs which could alter these per vehicle set
20:35:47 <peter1138> Damn it, I should've brought that popcorn.
20:35:55 <Simons_Mith> If you sell a vehicle immediately you get pretty much full money back
20:36:02 <peter1138> Samu, but how would the player know that in advance then?
20:36:15 <Samu> by having played in previous games, oh come on
20:37:03 <nielsm> the AI needs to be coded to take a gamble that it will get a useful result
20:37:08 <peter1138> What if they've never played that set before?
20:37:14 <nielsm> and whether it's useful or not, keep whatever it learned in memory
20:37:19 <peter1138> What if they've not played it for a while and simply don't remember it all?
20:37:33 <Simons_Mith> What if it's changed since last time?
20:37:41 <nielsm> let the AI access the readme.txt and parse it!
20:37:54 <peter1138> Samu, btw, I'm not saying the AI shouldn't be able to get these costs.
20:38:00 <nielsm> oh wait, nobody ever puts useful info in readme.txt
20:38:07 <peter1138> nielsm, usually not :-)
20:38:28 <Simons_Mith> TBH, if the AI could get all that stuff, I'd like to have an AI that extracted all the info and gave it to ME
20:38:30 <peter1138> Samu, but you know, maybe make some feature requests.
20:38:54 <peter1138> And yeah, if the AI can get the costs, then it'd be useful for players too.
20:39:01 <nielsm> afaik newgrf can control the refit costs of a vehicle based on CB can't it? so they may vary from time to time
20:39:02 <peter1138> I'm not sure if it's possible due to how the callbacks work, mind you.
20:40:14 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fh6vZ
20:41:10 <Samu> there is an AI library that "learns" engine capacity, refit costs of vehicles, but what it actually do is waste money... it needs money in advance to learn them
20:41:25 <andythenorth> that livery icon...sucks :P
20:41:26 <Samu> it's a meh... method imo
20:41:46 <Samu> if money is of concern for planning, this is a bad solution
20:42:00 <Borg> Samu: wait.. does GS doesnt have Test mode? with will return how much it spent?
20:42:24 <nielsm> so write an AI that takes a gamble the first time it sees a potentially useful vehicle!!
20:43:15 <nielsm> because that's sure what I do
20:43:17 <andythenorth> AI json manifest
20:43:36 <Samu> yes, but that test mode for refit, for example, requires you to already have it bought
20:44:10 <Eddi|zuHause> machine-readable AI-Wiki interface
20:44:54 <Samu> and to learn the new capacity, you really have to pay the refit cost, if you sell it after, the refit cost will ... cost you
20:44:54 <Eddi|zuHause> TODO: figure out how to add cloud and blockchain
20:45:09 <Samu> not good for planning mode
20:45:16 <Simons_Mith> If you buy and then sell straight back, you get pretty much a full refund, don't you?
20:45:34 <nielsm> Samu: you're just completely ignoring what I'm suggesting aren't you?
20:45:38 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: data lake
20:45:51 <Simons_Mith> What proportion of refits have non-zero cost>?
20:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, wiki interface doesn't only mean reading, but also writing
20:46:25 <Samu> what am I ignoring, sorry must have missed it
20:46:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Simons_Mith: i'd say most of them, unless the set was designed for autorefit
20:47:11 <nielsm> Samu: you're ignoring my suggestion that an AI should buy a vehicle on the chance it is useful, and then make the best possible of it even if it's not the very best choice
20:47:18 <nielsm> human players do that all the time
20:48:14 <nielsm> not buying it to learn the refit costs but buying it to use it to actually run the route
20:48:26 <nielsm> and learn the refit costs/etc along the way
20:48:47 <nielsm> (the purpose of buying that model is not to learn about it but to use it)
20:48:52 <Samu> hmm the usual problem is starting up, but I see what you mean
20:49:07 <nielsm> "this looks good enough"
20:49:56 <nielsm> "perfect" is the enemy of "good enough", or however you say
20:50:26 <Samu> was trying to make the best out of a budget of £100k
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20:53:39 <Simons_Mith> Eh, time for fud I think. Before I go, neilsm: "<nielsm> letting AIs cheat on their own volition is not acceptable and I will fight any PR that wants to allow that"
20:53:58 <Samu> it was when I discovered the refit issues. my ai at the moment is starting suboptimal with aircraft mail cargo
20:54:26 <Simons_Mith> But presumably if there was a checkbox /controlled by the player/ that said, 'Permit this AI to use cheats'. that'.... merely ugly?
20:54:48 <nielsm> no, write a gamescript for it
20:55:24 <Simons_Mith> many gamescripts, then
20:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like we're going in circles.
20:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and you're requesting things that are already possible, just not in the exact way you want it
20:56:33 <nielsm> I don't think it would be a difficult change to let multiple GS be loaded at once (except perhaps contention for storybook and goals?)
20:58:04 <Simons_Mith> I'm looking at writing this stuff myself, but thre's no point if it's too far at variance with the preferences of the key devs
20:58:35 <Simons_Mith> You've been helpful in that repsect
20:59:24 <Simons_Mith> GS extenstion is probably beyond my current skill tho
20:59:35 <Simons_Mith> As is correct typing
20:59:45 <nielsm> yes you're spelling my name wrong :(
21:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> man, my sense of time is totally broken today
21:01:38 <frosch123> nielsm: there are many things which are currently global, but would to be per-gs
21:01:50 <frosch123> like cargo-monitors, storybook, goals, ...
21:10:50 <andythenorth> so is there a var for CC being used?
21:15:59 <nielsm> hmm this is annoying, the first time the music loop is called, the client settings config is not loaded so _settings_client.music.playing is false by default so music never starts on title screen
21:16:15 <nielsm> is there a way to detect if config is actually fully loaded? >_>
21:16:51 <andythenorth> hmm, no documented var for vehicle colour
21:17:36 <frosch123> nielsm: there is a bool parameter to LoadFromConfig
21:17:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: var 43 iirc
21:17:54 * andythenorth trying to make custom liveries, selected by the group livery
21:18:12 <nielsm> frosch123 but that's not where I am, I'm inside MusicLoop()
21:18:28 <andythenorth> oh yes var 43 :)
21:18:40 <nielsm> between the calls to LoadFromConfig(true) and LoadFromConfig(false)
21:19:38 <andythenorth> so maybe this is the way to do liveries :)
21:19:51 <frosch123> nielsm: maybe _window_system_initialized ?
21:20:00 <andythenorth> I can't find a single person who says more than 'no' to my ctrl-click counter idea :P
21:20:32 <andythenorth> so choosing the livery can set the gearing on the train :D
21:20:35 <andythenorth> makes sense, right?
21:20:42 <andythenorth> red faster than blue
21:20:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: try to find a solution that works for more people than just you
21:20:58 <andythenorth> frosch123: I don't know any other people :P
21:21:17 <andythenorth> I'm also all out of modifier keys :P
21:21:33 <TrueBrain> if things are red, it just means they are moving away from you. Blue means they are approaching (most likely rapidly)
21:21:36 <TrueBrain> not sure what you are on about :P
21:21:46 <andythenorth> I just want to click on a train and have it cycle through sprite options :P
21:22:34 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7109: [OSX] Use high-precision scrolling properties for 2D scrolling https://git.io/fh6JY
21:22:58 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7109: [OSX] Use high-precision scrolling properties for 2D scrolling https://git.io/fh6JO
21:23:29 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: there was once a question: "how fast do you need to go so a red traffic light appears green to you?"
21:24:27 <TrueBrain> simple, never; as by the time you reach speeds that would cause that, you created tons of other problems that most likely would mean the end of life as we know it :P
21:24:43 <andythenorth> so if modifier-click is not going to happen
21:24:51 <andythenorth> how about a dropdown menu on every vehicle?
21:25:12 <glx> nielsm: you can make the loop wait for a signal maybe
21:29:21 <andythenorth> dunno what's on the menu options
21:29:25 <andythenorth> all the important things I guess
21:29:35 <andythenorth> sprite, cb36 stuff etc
21:29:39 <glx> how long does it take for eints to detect an new english.txt ?
21:29:49 <andythenorth> still needs some kind of counter byte so it knows what sprite to use :P
21:29:57 <andythenorth> there are some user bits somewhere?
21:39:51 <peter1138> Well, that was silly. Turns out there was no fish after all.
21:40:36 * andythenorth found chicken nuggets
21:41:42 <peter1138> I went out and got some, heh.
21:41:54 <peter1138> There was some fishcakes but they're pretty horrible I find.
21:42:53 <peter1138> Thanks for the screenshots andythenorth.
21:43:36 <peter1138> And then RGB colours ;)
21:44:06 <andythenorth> pikka never sleeps
21:44:19 <peter1138> Oh well. At least we won't be bodging AIs tonight.
21:45:49 <peter1138> So anyway, the chips in the freezer, a portion size is 125g. However they are chunky chips.
21:46:01 <peter1138> So I measured out a portion, and it was... about 3 chips.
21:46:19 <peter1138> So I said screw that and filled half the baking tray instead.
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21:46:36 <Eddi|zuHause> these "portions" never seem to make sense
21:46:38 <andythenorth> per vehicle arbitrary settings
21:46:42 <peter1138> This is not good for calorie control, I might as well have got takeaway.
21:47:03 <andythenorth> very filling, not much calorie
21:47:04 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, they usually very small. As if intended to make everything look healthy.
21:47:05 <Samu> peter1138 did you find your helicopter service fix?
21:47:38 <Samu> ok :| take a look at mine if you have time :o
21:47:43 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, like popcorn. Who buys a small bag of popcorn, and then divvies it out into 7 tiny portions?
21:47:45 <andythenorth> I think those new dropdowns look very nice
21:47:52 <andythenorth> they will enhance the depot view a lot
21:47:58 <peter1138> We'd need a lot of popcorn this evening.
21:48:12 <andythenorth> I have two kinds
21:48:17 <andythenorth> salted, salt + sugar
21:48:46 <peter1138> I have "gourmet". It has chocolate on it.
21:49:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how it came to be, but "popcorn" usually means "sweet" over here
21:49:26 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, have you ever measured out a "portion" of breakfast cereal?
21:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it's always been "make this bowl look somewhat full"
21:49:59 <peter1138> Unless it's puffed wheat, you end up with a thin layer of dust on the bottom of the bowl.
21:50:23 <glx> it's for 20cl of milk anyway
21:50:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never cared for the "1 portion" thing on anything, ever...
21:50:49 <peter1138> But it's okay. These portions are all green in the RDA boxes!
21:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> weren't you busy with hiding railtypes?
21:54:39 <peter1138> Uhm, I was busy visiting the MIL in hospital.
21:54:44 <peter1138> And then trying to eat her food.
21:54:44 <andythenorth> ketchip with rice?
21:55:16 <andythenorth> sweet and sour sauce is basically ketchup
21:55:22 <peter1138> But okay, that's probably easier than fiddling with NRT right now.
21:55:43 <peter1138> Just approve group-livery already ;)
21:55:56 <peter1138> Erm, I mean review it and check it's all good.
21:55:57 <andythenorth> does eddi have approve rights?
21:56:15 <peter1138> I suspect you are too biased on this one.
21:56:32 <andythenorth> I am not approving it :P
21:56:40 <andythenorth> I have play-tested it, but I can't review
21:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause> why would i have approve rights?
22:00:41 <andythenorth> why wouldn't you?
22:03:08 <frosch123> glx: TrueBrain: looks like the eints-pull trigger is broken. or did we forgot to install it after gh move? the working copy is still on 19:45
22:04:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: isnt it on a crontab?
22:04:25 <TrueBrain> didnt we settle on: just update it once a day?
22:05:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so once an hour?
22:06:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but how would that result in 19:45?
22:06:22 <TrueBrain> nah, it commits on 19:45
22:06:27 <TrueBrain> so it does things with the git around that time too
22:06:39 <frosch123> ok, so glx missed by 2 minutes :p
22:07:09 <TrueBrain> 'git log' confirms that hypothesis :)
22:07:36 <TrueBrain> (a hook is currently not possible to make this instant, as there is no way to get from the outside to in that vm)
22:10:02 <andythenorth> shall I make some more examples for group liveries? o_O
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22:20:51 <frosch123> 1 outdated, 6 missing, sounds right :)
22:23:35 <glx> yup I can start to fix french
22:24:32 <andythenorth> so eh, vehicle IDs aren't in short supply...how about some kind of vehicle subtype choice via the buy menu? o_O
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22:32:23 <peter1138> I mean, I'd like to.
22:33:19 <peter1138> Let me work on hiding railtypes.
22:33:27 <peter1138> That's probably a bit more reasonably on this shitty laptop.
22:33:42 * andythenorth tries to do a draw
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22:40:00 <peter1138> Alright, I think this patch is done.
22:40:25 * peter1138 ponders finding an old i5 laptop.
22:40:54 <peter1138> Lenovo X230, i5, 16GB...
22:42:10 <peter1138> Oh, 8GB, 320GB HDD... £170, not too bad.
22:47:22 <peter1138> Hmm, probably ought to disallow building of hidden railtypes too.
22:48:44 <andythenorth> dunno about how it all works
22:48:47 <andythenorth> I just drew something
22:50:08 <nielsm> peter1138: remember to watch out for display resolution/quality on laptops, I rather regret getting one with 1366x768 last time
22:50:14 <andythenorth> ha ha project management stuff glx
22:50:21 <nielsm> (otoh anything better would have been a massive increase in price)
22:50:33 <peter1138> Yeah, I miss my (even older) laptop's 1400x1050 display.
22:52:01 <nielsm> (also where are the laptop and desktop OLED computer displays, has it become physically impossible to manufacture OLED displays in sizes greater than 10 and smaller than 55 inches?)
22:52:45 <peter1138> Yeah, this X230 is that shitty 1366x768 :(
22:53:47 <peter1138> This one is 1440x900.
22:54:07 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Hmm, probably ought to disallow building of hidden railtypes too. <-- also hide them from the AI
22:55:12 <nielsm> does hidden railtype imply it doesn't actually exist? or just that it isn't buildable as-is for some reason, but may appear for special reasons?
22:55:42 <peter1138> It's something to do with compatible/powered railtypes.
22:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: mostly for providing hybrid vehicles
22:56:02 <Eddi|zuHause> like combined electric and 3rd rail
22:56:12 <peter1138> Okay, maybe this is not quite so easy ;(
22:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause> (although for those it might be useful to not hide it)
22:56:21 <peter1138> I'm not sure where it needs to be available and not.
22:56:57 <peter1138> andythenorth, nice work, is there a PR? ;)
22:57:55 <peter1138> Sprites Complete: Yup
22:59:30 <andythenorth> they don't all say 'yup' :(
22:59:55 <andythenorth> trucks that can go on mine roads
23:00:13 <andythenorth> without needing a special combined roadtype in build menu
23:05:31 <peter1138> Heh, GetBestRailtype falls back to RAILTYPE_RAIL, even if it's not available ;(
23:06:43 <peter1138> Hmm, might as well finish off this cider.
23:20:12 <Samu> i dont know how to iterate on visual studio
23:20:53 <glx> ah you need an iterator and a for loop
23:21:21 <Samu> erase(it) does the erase, but then the loop becomes broken
23:21:41 <glx> yes iterators don't like that
23:21:47 <nielsm> removing items from a collection you're iterating is recipe for trouble
23:22:23 <Samu> how would I erase the 'it', then
23:22:32 <nielsm> depends on what you're doing
23:22:58 <Samu> i wanna remove an item from the list
23:23:06 <nielsm> and how long the collection is and how much of it you expect to remove
23:23:24 <Samu> could be multiple, or none, or 1
23:24:52 <nielsm> std::remove_if() in <algorithm> might be the choice to go for
23:26:08 <Samu> yeah, i'm unfamiliar with that lingo :(
23:28:46 <LordAro> Samu: start by googling what look like keywords
23:28:53 <LordAro> then read what comes up
23:29:03 <LordAro> if we're lucky, you might learn something
23:30:28 <Samu> + settings { size=1 } std::map<char const *,int,StringCompare,std::allocator<std::pair<char const * const,int> > >
23:30:41 <Samu> not sure what I'm copying
23:31:13 <Samu> it has size=1, if I wanna erase it, it becomes size=0, but the iterator is then broken :|
23:31:15 <andythenorth> so this vehicle buy menu group
23:31:26 <andythenorth> how does it work? :P
23:31:50 <LordAro> Samu: don't blindly copy
23:31:53 <andythenorth> it's 100% independent vehicles, except for one prop creating a group on number or keyword?
23:32:07 <LordAro> cppreference.com has search functionality
23:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: each NewGRF vehicle sets a property which should be the "Master" vehicle, and group them if more than one
23:32:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: some magic default value meaning "no master"
23:33:01 <andythenorth> can't see why one is needed
23:33:02 <Eddi|zuHause> just the master vehicle
23:33:08 <andythenorth> prop for forcing simultaneous intro dates?
23:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> independent from group
23:33:36 <TrueBrain> yippie, logs on k8s are now also stored for a bit longer; so I can at least trace issues if they happen :)
23:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can make wagons appear at the same time without grouping
23:33:53 <TrueBrain> that was totally not simple in k8s world :(
23:34:04 <TrueBrain> people suggest using an ELK .. which costs ~1GB of RAM
23:34:08 <glx> TrueBrain: but it's easier to ignore issues if there's no logs
23:34:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so date is unrelated?
23:34:10 <TrueBrain> 25% for logging sounds ....
23:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes
23:34:27 <andythenorth> force-date is a new prop, totally independent of groups
23:34:28 <TrueBrain> glx: true .. but if there is a security incident, I would like to crawl logs :)
23:34:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: e.g. making new liveries available at other dates
23:34:41 <andythenorth> order in group is determined by order in buy menu
23:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but hide prototype offer for grouped vehicles
23:35:27 <andythenorth> my assumption is that groups contain highly similar vehicles
23:35:29 <peter1138> Ok but castello blue cheese.
23:35:39 <andythenorth> but one *could* create a group like 'buses' or whatever :P
23:35:51 <andythenorth> people create those weird separator newgrfs :P
23:36:59 <peter1138> They do, but we ignore them.
23:37:29 <peter1138> They're the sort of people who think that reimplementing TCP using UDP is a good idea.
23:38:26 <Samu> I have no idea how to interpret what I'm reading
23:39:50 <Samu> clear() is not the correct one
23:40:15 <Samu> erase(it) would be correct, but can't use inside a for loop :|
23:40:41 <nielsm> std::map::erase() returns a new iterator at the position you removed from
23:40:45 <nielsm> since we're using C++11 now
23:41:14 <nielsm> so maybe it=map.erase(it); it enough
23:41:15 <peter1138> Yeah, looks like you can do it = erase(it); but you probably need to make sure it is not incremented in the loop?
23:41:22 <andythenorth> ok so that's buy menu groups all done then
23:41:28 <andythenorth> use the yellow +/- things?
23:41:36 <nielsm> yes there is even an example at the end of the page :)
23:42:14 <peter1138> That does simplify things a lot, returning a new iterator.
23:43:01 <andythenorth> buy menu groups for 2.0
23:43:38 <peter1138> I'm compiling, but I can't remember what.
23:44:36 <peter1138> Gotta say, blue cheese on a fairly sweet ryvita is not quite right :/
23:44:52 <peter1138> Maybe I should open the MIL's crackers.
23:45:30 <Samu> Expression: cannot increment end map/set iterator
23:46:15 <LordAro> Samu: we're not going to give you answers for every single compile error you get
23:46:51 <nielsm> it sounds like you should research how C++ has defined the concept of iterators
23:46:56 <peter1138> Think about what an end map/set itaerator is.
23:47:07 <nielsm> and how you use them in general and in specific for the various standard containers
23:47:11 <andythenorth> we need dedicated samu channel
23:48:21 <Samu> gonna try mimic the example
23:49:39 <Samu> ah, i think i see, it's the for line, doesn't have it++ there
23:50:22 <peter1138> I mentioned that exact thing, approximately 8 minutes ago.
23:50:51 <LordAro> Samu: like i said, don't just (mis)copy, read it
23:50:56 <LordAro> and try to understand what you're reading
23:52:21 <Samu> yep, it works now, thx all
23:52:48 <peter1138> Balls, out of cider :(
23:53:08 <andythenorth> how do we have 2 pages of PRs open :(
23:53:10 <LordAro> peter1138: i suggest whisky
23:53:16 <LordAro> andythenorth: because you've been lazy!
23:53:21 <peter1138> Totally out of alcohol now.
23:53:22 <glx> but I guess your code was "if (need_remove) remove else it++" and that's clearly wrong
23:53:39 <peter1138> This was a bottle I brought with me, anything else in this house is... removed due to... reasons.
23:53:46 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.358974358974
23:54:03 <andythenorth> more than 1/3 of OpenTTD contributions are from samu
23:54:16 <glx> usually you don't want to increment inside the loop, unless you exactly know what you do
23:54:33 <glx> especially with iterators
23:55:11 <andythenorth> just increment past the close point
23:55:14 <andythenorth> what could go wrong?
23:56:59 <peter1138> Well, you'd get an error saying something about "Expression: cannot increment end map/set iterator"...
23:57:43 <andythenorth> I once employed someone who wrote a loop that needed to be closed with a break
23:58:06 <andythenorth> and did something like "if i == 100; break;"
23:58:20 <andythenorth> that hung a server up nicely
23:58:51 <andythenorth> not as fun as the day we learnt about locking sql tables for specific writes
23:59:08 <andythenorth> to avoid concurrent access when you really don't want it
23:59:12 <glx> without unlocking after ?
23:59:18 <andythenorth> like...giving away the one prize in a prize draw
23:59:25 <andythenorth> instead of the 7 prizes
23:59:32 <andythenorth> that you actually have to give away
23:59:34 <andythenorth> if you don't lock
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