IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-12-29
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00:02:49 <planetmaker> indeed. Good night!
00:02:52 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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00:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never felt quite as "opposite side" on xkcd as this time with the alt text. and that includes the east-west thing
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08:06:52 <andythenorth> early start Alberth? o_O
08:07:51 <Alberth> not quite, I got up about an hour earlier :)
08:09:24 <Alberth> looked at some 2nd bananas, and apparently there is code for a db, and some code for reading file data
08:09:42 <Alberth> ie newgrf, savegames, etc
08:13:11 <andythenorth> I asked frosch if he wanted any help
08:13:20 <andythenorth> a few months ago
08:13:37 <andythenorth> he said it was going ok and he didn't want to work with anyone else right now :)
08:14:19 <andythenorth> I have fixed the power display for multi-mode engines
08:14:27 <andythenorth> I used comic sans for emphasis of the change
08:15:04 <andythenorth> the diff for the newgrf part will be *really* big :P
08:16:01 <andythenorth> the answer was right there already :P
08:16:08 <andythenorth> Max. Tractive Effort :P
08:16:37 <Alberth> don't know if openttd can detect cghanges, or it would need a flag to indicate this
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08:17:42 <andythenorth> I would just change the string permanently
08:17:58 <Alberth> likely, neat solution andy!
08:18:19 <andythenorth> there's usually a way :P
08:18:49 <Alberth> finding the way is always the problem :)
08:19:00 <Alberth> especially when hidden in plain sight :p
08:20:37 <andythenorth> I should finish the patch for that :P
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08:29:29 <Alberth> not sure that exact speed is that interesting imho
08:30:46 <andythenorth> it's not, but it looked like such an easy fix :)
08:30:52 <andythenorth> just my C++ isn't very good :P
08:31:44 <Alberth> I somewhat expect something before the speed tbh
08:32:20 <Alberth> it's a bit weird to start with a number
08:32:58 <Alberth> maybe truncate the destination text instead?
08:33:18 <Alberth> Heading for New ..., 50mph
08:33:37 <andythenorth> oh we already use 'Max. Speed' also, in the vehicle info window :P
08:33:46 * andythenorth looking at strings for the other issue
08:34:00 <Alberth> and max reliability :)
08:41:47 * andythenorth trying to trigger an exclusive vehicle preview window
08:43:27 <Alberth> rig the code to only give previews to you :)
08:44:48 <andythenorth> currently running a game on ffwd :P
08:58:54 <andythenorth> git is broken :o
09:00:22 <peter1138> Yeah, vehicle speed isn't really important?
09:00:47 <andythenorth> it is when debugging newgrfs :P
09:01:10 <andythenorth> so why is git broken now?
09:01:15 <andythenorth> I just wanted to commit
09:01:52 <andythenorth> Don't run this script from the command line.
09:01:53 <andythenorth> (if you want, you could supply GIT_DIR)
09:02:04 <andythenorth> some kind of hook to prevent commits?
09:06:41 <andythenorth> seems I have openttd_hooks in the expected location
09:06:49 <andythenorth> removing it solves the problem :P
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09:17:39 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #6997: Change: show 'Max. Power' for vehicles rather than 'Power' https://git.io/fhIMr
09:22:16 <andythenorth> who got 6996? :P
09:22:22 <andythenorth> I wanted that number :P
09:28:04 <andythenorth> I can't see it getting fixed
09:28:13 <andythenorth> it's not like we have 10s or 100s of these reports
09:28:22 <andythenorth> I would close it TBH
09:28:45 <planetmaker> edge case of backward bug-for-bug compatibility
09:29:35 <nielsm> the tile in question renders right, it seems
09:29:59 <andythenorth> cosmic ray hit someone's RAM
09:30:18 <planetmaker> combination of both :)
09:31:05 <planetmaker> I think the best bug fix there would be to manually fix that savegame somehow and then close the bug
09:31:18 <planetmaker> the 2nd best is just closing the bug
09:34:06 <andythenorth> I forgot about intro date randomisation
09:34:18 <andythenorth> so the high speed engine might be built, but no carriage for 17 years or so
09:34:42 <planetmaker> it's only +-2 years?
09:35:10 <andythenorth> 511 days it seems
09:38:55 <peter1138> I probably have a patch for that.
09:39:05 <nielsm> okay trying to crash the involved train in that bug and see if it's the tile that's broken, or the train that's broken
09:47:23 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6032: Crash while loading savegame from 0.6 in 1.4 https://git.io/fhIDU
09:50:47 <nielsm> hmm, maybe this could be a useful debugging tool, a "warp vehicle to depot" function? activate the tool from a depot window, click a vehicle in the world or another depot, and the vehicle is instanly moved
10:06:47 <andythenorth> where was that vehicle groups spec for purchase menu? :P
10:09:42 <andythenorth> proposal: vehicles gain a property 'group with [vehicle ID]'
10:10:08 <andythenorth> purchase menu then groups vehicles, under a disclosure widget (+/- thing)
10:10:18 <andythenorth> all vehicles in a group are introduced at same time
10:10:52 <andythenorth> use for liveries, wagons that match specific engine, variable properties (regearing) etc
10:12:17 <andythenorth> alternative proposal specific to intro dates: add a property to sync intro dates :P
10:12:46 <andythenorth> I really like the groups idea, but I think it will make a real headache out of sorting
10:12:56 <andythenorth> sorting on hidden things is always a disaster
10:25:04 <TrueBrain> sorry for stealing your number andythenorth .. I didn't know :'(
10:25:30 <andythenorth> maybe I can get 9669
10:26:28 <TrueBrain> that .... takes a bit of time to get there :P
10:34:23 <Gabda> can someone help me on how to make a pull request?
10:35:08 <nielsm> Gabda how far are you?
10:36:28 <Gabda> can we "spam" this channel, or a PM would be better for this?
10:36:43 <nielsm> let's just keep it here
10:36:54 <nielsm> so others can help/learn from it too
10:37:24 <Gabda> ok, we can start from the point when I have a commit in my local repo
10:37:46 <Gabda> I am familiar with Git, but not with github, as I usually use other review system
10:38:08 <nielsm> do you have a fork of openttd on github?
10:38:31 <Gabda> not yet, should I make one?
10:39:00 <nielsm> you add your fork as remote for your local repo, push your branch to your own fork (and set that as upstream for the branch)
10:39:13 <nielsm> then github's web interface should suggest you can create a PR from the fork
10:40:36 <TrueBrain> (feel free to ask questions btw; more meant to say that those guides spend a few more words on how to do stuff :) )
10:41:29 <Gabda> the first guide I found was about PR without forking, and forking to a branch other than master
10:42:00 <Gabda> but as I saw the branches are not active in OpenTTD
10:42:03 <TrueBrain> yeah .. I noticed that too :D
10:42:28 <TrueBrain> and indeed; OpenTTD uses forks instead of branches
10:42:40 <TrueBrain> (like most projects on GitHub .. so that guide is a bit odd :D)
10:43:26 <nielsm> as a side note, most things in a PR can be changed after it has been created, and don't feel shy about force-pushing a massively rebased version of your branch to your own fork on github, it handles that correctly (by updating the PR)
10:44:04 <Gabda> that answers my next question :)
10:44:27 * andythenorth has become addicted to reset --hard HEAD~n
10:44:35 <andythenorth> because I can hide my mistakes
10:44:40 <andythenorth> if I do that at work, I'm dead :P
10:44:42 <TrueBrain> I dont want to know :P
10:44:43 <Gabda> if I can force push to my own branch at my fork, as it is not nice to amend published commits
10:45:19 <nielsm> github's even smart enough to provide diffs between force-pushed versions
10:45:28 <TrueBrain> nielsm: it does? Since when?! :D
10:45:34 <nielsm> although they don't always make sense
10:45:41 <nielsm> I first noticed it a month ago or so
10:45:58 <TrueBrain> they was a thing that was lacking on GitHub
10:46:00 <nielsm> in that one for example
10:46:30 <TrueBrain> did notice it showed force-pushes now, but didnt spot that it was a link :)
10:46:40 <nielsm> (the change there was just commit message so the diff is empty)
10:47:01 <TrueBrain> gerrit solves that by making the commit message part of the diff :)
10:47:05 <TrueBrain> which is a nice way of doing that
10:47:36 <TrueBrain> okay ... I just noticed we are still running lighttpd on OpenTTD
10:48:48 <Gabda> it is so much different than gerrit, I will need some time to get used to it
10:49:20 <TrueBrain> gerrit is a HUGE hack on git; so yeah .. the difference between gerrit and any other system is huge :D
10:49:45 <TrueBrain> no more 'refs/for' stuff :P
10:49:46 <Gabda> but at least now I know where can I get help, so thank you guys :)
11:01:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so I'm using cb36 now to set power on specific wagons
11:02:21 <andythenorth> what's the condition? (1) Correct engine at the start of the consist? or (2) Correct engine anywhere in the consist? :P
11:02:41 <TrueBrain> bah; making sure the server listing is still served via the old method but not on www is more difficult than I would like
11:03:44 <nielsm> andythenorth, no way to walk the train to find the first engine in front of the wagon?
11:04:42 <andythenorth> I could use wagon_attach restrictions to reduce the problem
11:04:47 <andythenorth> I just don't like that approach :P
11:05:57 <andythenorth> only allowing the wagons to attach to specific engines avoids 'wrong engine' problem, but it's ugh
11:08:06 <nielsm> query for front engine imo
11:08:14 <andythenorth> makes the most sense
11:08:14 <TrueBrain> okay, new plan of attack: create two (temporary) new flask projects to serve servers.openttd.org and downloads.openttd.org .. ugh .. why is this so complex :D
11:09:16 <nielsm> real world generally demands that all power or steering cars in a train use the same comms protocol as the front engine
11:09:32 <andythenorth> that would suggest wagon attach limits somewhere
11:09:43 <andythenorth> but what if player wants to do this? :P
11:10:27 <nielsm> the trainset might just not provide power in that situation?
11:10:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the engine queries var 60 for any number of appropriate engines and any number of appropriate wagons, then divides (#wagons)/(#engines) to decide how much to increase his own power?
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11:12:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the image above is fine, because the lone engine won't take part in additional-wagon-power, so it would be a don't-care in that formula
11:12:42 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 opened pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting https://git.io/fhIyD
11:13:37 <Gabda> it seems like the PR is in
11:14:00 <TrueBrain> hmm ... 'magic numbers' .. what is this 16, and where does it come from :D
11:14:13 <Gabda> yep, there is a magic number in it
11:14:21 <Eddi|zuHause> a fair dice roll, obviously?
11:15:25 <Gabda> I wanted to ask about it in the issue comments
11:15:52 <Gabda> as how likely is for the number of colours in the game to change
11:16:11 <TrueBrain> I would say ... between 0 and 1 :)
11:16:19 <Gabda> and if it is even possible to use that number in the settings ini files
11:16:38 * andythenorth waves at peter1138's group liveries patch :P
11:16:42 <andythenorth> as it recedes into history
11:17:08 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't there an enum for company colours, with a num_colours entry?
11:17:38 <LordAro> should the setting be saved? seems clientside only to me
11:18:04 <TrueBrain> havent touched the code in years, but we used to sync language entries with an enum (and mark the language entries as such)
11:18:21 <TrueBrain> that way who touches the enum knows there are language entries attached to it :)
11:18:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it can join the 32bpp colours patch there?
11:19:34 <TrueBrain> but I leave this to people who actually know the code :D
11:20:23 <andythenorth> future civilisations will unearth peter1138's patch pile :P
11:20:31 <andythenorth> and write PhD theses about it
11:20:35 <andythenorth> or their AIs might
11:20:40 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting https://git.io/fhIyb
11:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't looked at the code (or the PR) either, but these "default profile"-type settings need not be saved in the savegame, but somehow need to be transferred to the server on joining a game
11:20:43 <andythenorth> are AIs civilisation?
11:21:24 <TrueBrain> Azure Pipelines is a bit weird ..
11:21:31 <TrueBrain> it still hasnt triggered on this PR
11:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "civilisation" is a term mainly used for "we are inside and they are outside"
11:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it has no inherent meaning
11:22:01 <andythenorth> so it's a social construct?
11:22:06 <andythenorth> exists only in discourse?
11:22:14 * andythenorth can play post-modernism on demand
11:22:24 <TrueBrain> guess it is based on an old version
11:22:43 * andythenorth wonders if Sid Meier will make "Post-Modernism"
11:22:44 <LordAro> nielsm: last i checked "Feature" is a thing
11:23:04 <TrueBrain> ah, yes, if you dont have azure-pipelines-ci.yml in your repo, it is just silently ignored
11:23:06 <nielsm> I don't remember it used then
11:23:41 <TrueBrain> not many new features :D
11:23:53 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: That wouldn't happen if ci-config would be something outside of the repo :p
11:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> (but i suppose that problem only really exists in a transition period, once enough people have rebased, it'll disappear)
11:24:37 <TrueBrain> I like how even that page is confused about Add/Feature :D
11:25:18 <Wolf01> Good, I reconfigured the entire LAN
11:25:31 <TrueBrain> you moved it to a known-bad state now?
11:25:35 <TrueBrain> so you are sure it doesnt work? :D
11:25:47 <LordAro> generally "feature" if users are likely to notice it, right?
11:25:51 <andythenorth> "Add" is bollocks
11:26:14 <andythenorth> it's not even consistent with how I was told to do things with hg for coop devzone
11:26:21 <Wolf01> Put the private LAN behind my DDWRT, the modem could be anything and with any IP now
11:26:27 <andythenorth> I was told specifically to make "Add" commits to add new files
11:27:09 <Wolf01> The only downside is that now I have to physically move the eth cable to the modem to be able to change its config
11:27:32 <TrueBrain> I can connect to the internal IP of the modem despite not being on the same subnet :P
11:27:49 <Wolf01> Like... I forgot to set the DMZ towards DDWRT
11:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, never had that kind of problem
11:28:29 <Wolf01> I can connect to the other subnet
11:29:16 <TrueBrain> because you now have your modem no longer in a bridge, I assume at least, the NAT is doing this for you :P
11:30:26 <Gabda> so Add would be better?
11:30:52 <TrueBrain> Gabda: I think we just agreed we didn't agree what it even means :D
11:30:59 <TrueBrain> Add .. Feature ... :D
11:31:13 <Wolf01> I had real problems trying to set the router wan mode on PPPoE, it couldn't get the IP, then I made it get the wan IP from DHCP
11:31:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i recently had a network where there were multiple modems, and each had the same 169.whatever default IP, it would randomly switch me between the two :p
11:32:14 <Wolf01> Also now I'm able to set static IPs from the router itself
11:32:29 <Wolf01> And leave the entire network on DHCP
11:32:43 <Gabda> TrueBrain: it is hard to follow the conversation :)
11:33:12 <TrueBrain> Gabda: it always id :D
11:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> imho "feature" is better here
11:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the difference between "feature" and "add" should be how prominent it will be displayed in the changelog(.txt)
11:37:26 <Gabda> about the magic number: do you think there is a way to use the size of colour enum in the company_settings.ini?
11:37:55 <TrueBrain> I think the value in the ini is not a real issue, many magic values there. But the one in the if-statement is a bit unclear where it comes from
11:39:24 <Gabda> ok, then I will put random as first, as 0 is a better magic number :D
11:39:59 <TrueBrain> I dont know enough of the code (anymore) to give any sound advise on that :)
11:40:00 <Alberth> company_settings.ini is converted to code before compiling, so you should be able to use enum values
11:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: i think you can use constants in company_settings.ini
11:40:11 <Alberth> ie like all the string names
11:40:54 <Eddi|zuHause> for min/max/default
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11:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: if you put random at 0, you probably need a savegame conversion routine, to move existing savegames up by 1
11:44:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: better to add new entries at the end
11:45:04 <Gabda> as none of the savegames contains this variable, it is not an issue yet
11:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, on a more general scope, i think the real value in this setting is for people who often join multiplayer games, so you maybe should get that working
11:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: they don't contain this variable, but they contain company colours
11:46:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Gabda: you could have random as -1, though
11:47:19 <nielsm> that's 255 if you use an unsigned by as storage :)
11:47:44 <nielsm> anyway, the default company color preference shouldn't need to be stored in savegames at all
11:47:50 <nielsm> since it's only relevant during game creation
11:48:21 <Gabda> I think the multiplayer part needs a separate commit, I want this part be nice first
11:48:22 <nielsm> really, it's a client preference and not a game setting
11:50:44 <nielsm> move it to GUISettings
11:51:50 <andythenorth> bi-mode engines AND powered wagons? o_O
11:52:14 <andythenorth> the varaction 2 for those is *not* orthogonal :P
11:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how is that a problem?
11:52:51 <andythenorth> it's not a problem, it's a design question
11:52:52 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, it might be if you don't think in tree-algorithms :p
11:53:10 <andythenorth> exactly, am I doing a tree
11:53:29 <andythenorth> or am I doing two separate conditional blocks, which cannot be combined?
11:53:54 <Gabda> nielsm: now I see that the GUISettings is for "other stuff" as well, so it is really a good place for it
11:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause> from the root (action3) i would do two layered branches (action2): the first one branches on railtype, and the second makes the calculation for additional power
11:54:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have a diesel calculation and an electric calculation action2 in parallel
11:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> or alternatively, the first action2 pushes a value into temp register, and the second one reads that and multiplies it
11:55:41 <nielsm> well it might get funny if you want to handle the transition from electric to non-electric track such that cars on the elctric part provide more power
11:55:54 <nielsm> and not just based on whether the front engine is on electric track
11:56:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that second approach might make it reusable across multiple engines
11:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> just change the base power in the temp register
11:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> (just remember that in nfo/nml syntax, you reverse the order of action2)
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11:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause> (so what i call "first action2" is actually the last one in the code)
11:58:59 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 commented on issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation https://git.io/fhISz
11:59:51 <Gabda> I have to go now, thanks again for all the help. I will be back when the modifications are done :)
12:03:42 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation https://git.io/fhISr
12:10:13 <andythenorth> given a time machine, I might travel back and split 'electrified' out from railtype :P
12:11:00 <nielsm> it's an accessory to the rail, not part of the track itself ;)
12:11:28 <andythenorth> it requires juggling skills :P
12:11:36 <andythenorth> sometimes ELRL vs RAIL is significant
12:11:42 <andythenorth> and sometimes they need to resolve to the same thing
12:11:50 <andythenorth> and that's before considering ELNG :P
12:12:02 <andythenorth> or possible compatible-types crap
12:12:20 <andythenorth> far too late to fix now :D
12:13:07 <nielsm> and then you maybe want to distinguish between catenary and third rail electrification
12:14:05 <andythenorth> people really shouldn't :P
12:42:36 <andythenorth> how will varying power by railtype ever work?
12:42:44 <andythenorth> I don't know all the railtype labels
12:42:50 <andythenorth> so checking them is stupid, no?
12:43:03 <andythenorth> maybe I should disable Horse with railtype grfs
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12:49:47 <andythenorth> yeah bi-mode engines fail with nutracks
12:50:10 <andythenorth> option 1) delete bi-mode
12:50:34 <andythenorth> option 2) keep a list of known railtype grfs, and disable Iron Horse if they're found
12:50:53 <andythenorth> I fail to understand why we even have a railtype var, it's nonsense :P
12:53:49 <Alberth> use lowest hp for unknown track types?
12:54:32 <andythenorth> but that has a couple of unwanted results
12:54:47 <andythenorth> railtype grfs that define electrified rails, but my engine doesn't know about them
12:54:52 <nielsm> track type: standard/monorail below/monorail above/vactube; power type: none/AC catenary/DC catenary/DC 3rd rail/DC 4th rail/maglev
12:54:53 <andythenorth> because I can't know about every grf
12:55:16 <andythenorth> and also, for the Max. Power PR, I wanted to default to the maximum power, not min. :P
12:55:20 <nielsm> oh yeah and track gauge: standard/narrow/wide
12:55:39 <andythenorth> I figured out once why railtypes is such a total disaster
12:55:43 <andythenorth> but I always forget
12:56:03 <andythenorth> there is a rationale beyond 'we just got it wrong'
12:56:39 <Alberth> can't have a solution there I think, some one is going to argue electric rail type A != electric rail type B for seom weird RL reason
12:58:34 <nielsm> absolutely, within europe you have catenary with DC, 50 Hz AC, and 16.7 Hz AC
12:58:41 <nielsm> and various voltages of each
12:59:21 <Alberth> nice for modelers, disaster for transport tycoons
12:59:59 <andythenorth> I'm sure that the spec is carefully designed to allow railtype authors to take control from vehicle grf authors that they disagree with
13:00:06 <nielsm> you might be able to visually differentiate between AC and DC by the mast designs
13:00:14 <nielsm> but in TTD scale that's a few pixels at most
13:00:16 <andythenorth> I had an insight one day a few years ago
13:01:01 <Alberth> powered track is just powered track, only RL worries about voltages and stuff :)
13:01:10 <andythenorth> e.g. if you want to make two variants of RAIL
13:01:23 <andythenorth> you can't be relying on vehicle newgrfs to help you
13:01:31 <andythenorth> so you have to be able to control everything in the railtype grf
13:01:40 <andythenorth> otherwise you can't impose speed limits on trains
13:01:58 <andythenorth> I'm 99% certain it's designed to achieve letting railtype grf authors speed limit trains
13:02:06 <Alberth> be inocmpatible with all non-cooperating newgrfs :p
13:02:29 <andythenorth> we are where we are
13:02:45 <andythenorth> and where we might be next is 'deleting anything that checks var 4A (railtype)
13:03:04 <Alberth> speed limit is likely the only relevant differentiating notion between a pair of steel bars :p
13:03:16 <andythenorth> speed limits are the dumbest concept
13:03:21 <andythenorth> we already have speed limits on the vehicles
13:03:35 <Borg> OpenTTD 1.8.0 crashes WinXP hard.. very very hard.. blue screen
13:03:41 <Borg> it works correctly on Win2003 tho
13:04:15 * andythenorth might have a toys-out-of-pram moment
13:04:15 <Alberth> always nice if a user app can bring down the OS :p
13:04:23 <andythenorth> both the things I wanted to fix today are ~impossible :P
13:04:39 <Alberth> productive day andy :)
13:04:46 <andythenorth> I should go back to making industries
13:04:53 <andythenorth> which at least aren't broken
13:05:05 <andythenorth> 'oh but the station grf authors should be able to control cargos'
13:05:05 <Alberth> or simple train newgrfs :)
13:05:29 <andythenorth> ah simple grfs :)
13:05:53 <Alberth> he is, just be incompatible with what you don't know to be compatible
13:06:07 <Alberth> full control right there
13:07:27 <Alberth> oh, ship grfs are nice too of course :)
13:07:36 <Borg> can anyone tell me diffrence between win9x vs win32 OpenTTD build?
13:07:46 <Borg> size of .exe is significant smaller... 8MB vs 11MB
13:08:52 <nielsm> you mean 64 and 32 bit?
13:09:29 <Borg> I mean win32 (build for WinXP SP3 and onward) vs win9x (build for Windows95/98/2000)
13:10:04 <nielsm> do they link all the same libraries?
13:10:16 <nielsm> there might be a difference in unicode support (maybe)
13:11:39 <Borg> dunno. whats the differences.. but WinXP SP2 crashes very hard.. 1.7.2 worked fine
13:11:59 <Borg> not a big deal.. of course, u can download win9x version.. but I wonder about differences
13:12:14 <Borg> and performance differences too? are they any?
13:12:16 <nielsm> maybe orudge knows something about it
13:12:39 <nielsm> but I doubt most people here really care about compatibility with 15 year old OS'es by now
13:13:24 <nielsm> are you talking about your own builds, or downloaded builds?
13:13:40 <nielsm> if it's your own builds, what compiler and environment are you using? what standard library are you targeting?
13:13:50 <nielsm> what dependency libraries are compiled in?
13:13:54 <Borg> it seems it might be a good time to build my own environment for OpenTTD building.. using mingw
13:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> <Borg> dunno. whats the differences.. but WinXP SP2 crashes very hard.. 1.7.2 worked fine <-- i think there was a change where we only support WinXP SP3 with the regular windows build
13:17:20 <andythenorth> so do we have a list of all railtypes?
13:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: unlikely
13:18:03 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: yeah.. its from 1.1.3 but so far... those win32 builds were working fine on WinXP SP2 too
13:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the "common railtype scheme" already has too many hypothetical railtypes to be unable to list them all
13:18:31 <andythenorth> this is bluntly moronic
13:18:37 <andythenorth> it's a tragedy of the commons
13:18:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's why we need a useful fallback mechanism
13:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can say "any ELRL-ish type"
13:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and be done with it
13:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it will never work otherwise
13:19:08 <andythenorth> do you have any idea at all for how to do that?
13:19:18 <andythenorth> the current set up is prime idiocy
13:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not in a way that would retain existing compatible/powered behaviour
13:20:06 <andythenorth> my current inclination really is to just disable horse, and maintain a list of all railtype grfs on bananas
13:20:10 <andythenorth> seems a bit childish
13:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the alternative approach is to allow articulated vehicles of different railtypes, so you could have one part RAIL and another ELRL, and the ELRL part would only add its power depending on the existing powered mechanism
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13:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause> avoiding all the callback mess
13:21:40 <andythenorth> but would fail on other things
13:21:45 <andythenorth> articulated vehicles can't be flipped
13:21:52 <andythenorth> articulated vehicles can't be dual-headed
13:22:01 <andythenorth> and articulated vehicles put all the power on the lead unit
13:22:09 <Alberth> wouldn't you havce a callback on the rail and the elrail then?
13:22:20 <andythenorth> eddi is proposing doing it as a prop
13:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: no, the game already handles that by itself
13:22:46 * andythenorth wonders if all installed railtypes can be inspected in a game
13:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: if you put a diesel and an electric engine in one train
13:22:53 <andythenorth> then disable Horse if unknown types are found
13:23:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it'll have power of diesel on RAIL and power of diesel and electric on ELRL
13:23:14 <Alberth> andy, give up trying to be complete
13:23:30 <andythenorth> I am just testing whether the obvious conclusion can be avoided
13:23:39 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: zo somewhere you need to handle in the newgrf the amount of power right?
13:23:42 <andythenorth> the obvious conclusion is that the game is hostile to ideas like bi-mode
13:24:04 <andythenorth> which is at least easy to work with :)
13:24:32 <andythenorth> e.g. the multi-cargo articulated vehicles in Horse 1 are just impossible, so they are deleted from Horse 2, it's fine
13:24:52 <Alberth> andy, there are railtypes that you don't know. Use the lowest setting so it works, someone will complain, and you can adapt and release a new version
13:25:15 <andythenorth> that's possible yes
13:25:53 <andythenorth> I am in the rabbit hole of 'how was this supposed to work'
13:25:54 <Alberth> we should have versioning on features :p
13:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: how does that not explode in complexity hell?
13:26:49 <Alberth> likely by dropping old buggy crap :)
13:27:16 <Alberth> which is somewhat problematic under the current policies
13:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm starting to hate commercial games because most of them go like "we have this minor update, but you need to start a new game"
13:28:56 <Alberth> if you have a choice when to update, that would be fine
13:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> some games allow downgrading via steam's "beta" feature
13:30:08 <andythenorth> the thing that's bugging me with railtypes
13:30:24 <andythenorth> is that Eddi|zuHause doesn't have an alternative 'this is how it should have been done' option
13:30:30 <andythenorth> which is unusual
13:30:43 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> i'm starting to hate commercial games because most of them go like "we have this minor update, but you need to start a new game" <- I thought that was only on early access titles
13:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i did have that, that's how the standardized scheme got developed
13:31:28 <Xaroth> wait, you found something that Eddi can't complain about?
13:31:40 <Xaroth> surely hell hasn't frozen over just yet?
13:31:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth: no, that's not what he said
13:31:52 <andythenorth> I was quite precise :P
13:32:01 <andythenorth> eddi often has an idea that leads to a solution
13:32:39 <andythenorth> but this specific problem seems immune to analysis
13:32:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bit complex
13:33:01 <andythenorth> and we're potentially replicating it for NRT, if the merge conflicts ever get resolved
13:33:40 <andythenorth> frosch proposed BGT to separate visual appearance from vehicle behaviour
13:33:50 <andythenorth> but I'm not sure, it might just be even more complexity?
13:34:15 <andythenorth> there was an implication that BGT could be extended to rail, objects, station etc if it worked
13:34:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that is all nice, but it's only tangential to the current problem
13:34:44 <Eddi|zuHause> which is "how to solve dual power"
13:35:24 <Eddi|zuHause> "... without revamping everything, but just small sprinkles on top of the existing stuff"
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13:42:24 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 opened pull request #6999: Fix #6966: Only allow switching to a valid company. https://git.io/fhIHP
13:42:53 <andythenorth> option 1) deletee dual power
13:44:02 <Alberth> not much choice in options, is there
13:44:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the other 289345 Alberth-s were already taken?
13:45:20 <Alberth> some were, didn't try all of them
13:46:43 <andythenorth> so what problem was I solving?
13:47:23 <Alberth> tried several names, all taken, so I wanted to select a free name with a high probability. It worked :p
13:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imho it's a valid option to skip dual power for now, most sets won't suffer from the lack of dual power vehicles
13:47:49 <andythenorth> it's quite late in the development to drop them :P
13:47:53 <andythenorth> usually I don't mind deleting
13:48:03 <andythenorth> but there's a lot of work in these, and I like the gameplay
13:48:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in that case, i would just list as many known railtypes as possible, and wait for the complaints
13:48:46 <andythenorth> is there some kind of railtype table?
13:49:03 <Alberth> I think you listed them already? :p
13:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> other than the two wiki pages? not that i know of
13:49:43 <andythenorth> I mean, is there any way to map railtypes to other railtypes?
13:49:52 <andythenorth> or do I just generate very big switches?
13:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> just one very big switch that you reuse all over the place?
13:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause> nml still lacking procedure call mechanism i suppose
13:52:20 <andythenorth> what is this supposed to do?
13:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> last time i looked for a workaround for that the problem was you can't pass a switch id in var6x[] syntax
13:52:52 <Alberth> railtype is just a 32 bit number right?
13:53:17 <Alberth> so extract the right letter from the type
13:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: you don't have access to the label, you only get the index into the RTT
13:54:24 <andythenorth> what is the RTT for?
13:54:33 <andythenorth> I cargo-culted the one in Horse
13:54:37 <andythenorth> NFI what it does
13:54:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: enumerating the known railtypes
13:54:51 <andythenorth> so does it remap labels?
13:55:22 <andythenorth> so if I map ELRL to e.g. EMED
13:55:27 <andythenorth> I can ignore EMED?
13:55:30 <Alberth> so by carefully making a table, you can use the index to select a part?
13:55:37 <andythenorth> it will just appear as ELRL to my var 4A check?
13:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you define a vehicle, you tell it "this one is powered on railtype #1 and compatible on railtype #0" and the RTT says "railtype #0 is RAIL and #1 is ELRL"
13:55:53 <Alberth> no, it maps from label to a uniq index
13:56:18 <andythenorth> so I need to just keep a list of railtypes in python and write them all out?
13:56:55 <andythenorth> can one railtype grf remove railtypes defined by another?
13:56:58 <andythenorth> remove / over-write?
13:57:03 <Alberth> you can't check the numeric index number?
13:57:18 <andythenorth> it's all a mystery to me
13:57:33 <andythenorth> there's no proper domain
13:57:47 <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out if I can nerf Horse to just work with the railtypes it supplies
13:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the problem with bi-mode is that you now need to fill the RTT with all known railtypes, which you didn't care about before
13:58:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is probably too limited
13:58:58 <andythenorth> I was getting away with it before, because only bi-mode engines checked railtype
13:59:01 <Alberth> you need to do that anyway if you ever want to interpret a random railtype
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13:59:11 <andythenorth> and they fell back to lowest value if railtype wasn't ELRL
13:59:26 <andythenorth> now I need to extend it so all engines are potentially checking railtype
13:59:36 <planetmaker> well... yes... RTT is a big "interesting" when it comes to supporting a hell lot of RTs
13:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the main problem is, if your RTT only contains RAIL and ELRL, the callback variable will give you as results "RAIL, ELRL, unknown", and the "unknown" case is problematic, because you cannot distinguish "unknown, but ELRL is powered" and "unknown, but RAIL is powered"
13:59:59 <andythenorth> unrelated, I also need to swap the default power to 'max', not 'min', which also is a problem with the fallback if not ELRL
14:00:32 <andythenorth> electrified should have been a flag :P
14:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> so we nown need this clutch of a bloated RTT
14:00:51 <Alberth> coding meta-information in a label is a very bad idea
14:01:11 <andythenorth> we should have coded cargo class into the cargo labels
14:01:16 <andythenorth> would have gone well
14:01:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the "we should make it worse for someone else so we can feel better" approach
14:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> which is all the rage nowadays
14:02:21 <andythenorth> anyway it's not changing now
14:02:27 <andythenorth> so really, I just need to accept the broken
14:02:37 <andythenorth> and pick my way through refactoring Horse
14:03:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i would at least pick a few additional railtypes, so you have all the infrastructure in place to add some as the complaints come in
14:04:26 <andythenorth> "railtype grfs are not supported, except PIPE"
14:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's pretty easy in nml, as you just add the labels at the end, don't need to give it an ID
14:04:30 <andythenorth> infrastructure in place :)
14:04:44 <andythenorth> PIPE, the only valid railtype grf :P
14:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's not enough
14:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: of the [] ones, only one is considered "active", the other ones will return "unknown"
14:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you really need to add all the single labels at the end
14:06:53 <andythenorth> I don't know what it does
14:07:12 <andythenorth> I think it makes metro trains work on ELRL or something
14:07:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that is fine for defining vehicles
14:07:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but it is insufficient for bi-mode
14:08:43 <andythenorth> bi-mode, but default isn't RAIL :P
14:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what could work is a 6x variant of var4A, that takes a RTT entry as parameter to use instead of the railtype that the vehicle is defined for
14:11:32 <andythenorth> so we map through types?
14:11:43 <andythenorth> and return true if in the list?
14:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> var4A gives you "this vehicle [defined for ELRL] is currently powered", and this proposed 6x version would be "if this were vehicle defined for ELRL, it would be powered"
14:13:12 <nielsm> elsewhere on the internet, "a holiday themed toy train set look would be amazing"
14:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> var 0x4A has this line: "return (HasPowerOnRail(Train::From(v)->railtype, rt) ? 0x100 : 0) | GetReverseRailTypeTranslation(rt, object->ro.grffile);"
14:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> just replace v->railtype with the 6x-parameter
14:17:43 <Eddi|zuHause> (the parameter will be the RTT index, not the label, but nml should handle that intuitively correct)
14:30:48 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 commented on issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation https://git.io/fhIQN
14:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: use it like "var[0x6a, 8, 0xFF, ELRL]"
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14:34:50 <andythenorth> oops I turned the microwave on :P
14:35:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: got my lines?
14:36:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: use it like "var[0x6a, 8, 0xFF, ELRL]"
14:37:21 <andythenorth> and then add some types to my RTT for ELRL?
14:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> no need for that
14:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause> just use the var[] in the callback for bi-mode power
14:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no other changes
14:38:38 <andythenorth> oh you've magicked it I see
14:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause> then send the vehicle over some nutracks tracks or something
14:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> to see what it's doing
14:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause> valid results are 0 (no) and 1 (yes)
14:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> also, concerning the microwave issue, is your device capable of 5GHz or only 2.4GHz?
14:57:32 <andythenorth> I am uncertain :)
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15:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it might be called "802.11b/g/n" or "802.11a+n" or something
15:01:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the letters being the important bit
15:02:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the point is, the microwave will probably only disturb one of the two bands
15:02:57 <Eddi|zuHause> 5GHz usually has higher bandwidth, but lower range
15:03:32 <andythenorth> oh the device is dual mode, and prefers 5GHz afaik
15:03:47 <andythenorth> but it's troubled by faraday cages
15:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to force it to one of the two, then
15:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> (or advanced: permanently open both connections with routing fallback)
15:05:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so that patch works at least with RAIL / ELRL
15:05:50 <andythenorth> now I try some railtype grfs
15:07:03 <andythenorth> that's interesting
15:07:07 <andythenorth> it appears to work :)
15:08:13 <Eddi|zuHause> now convince someone to include it :)
15:08:26 <andythenorth> needs a PR then ;)
15:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause> why did compiling change the *.ob? files?
15:09:54 <Wolf01> Ok, disabling the firewall on the modem worked for port forwarding
15:10:06 <andythenorth> because apparently we haven't set our local .gitignore :P
15:10:20 <andythenorth> I was told that the problem is my system, not our compile
15:10:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds wrong
15:10:41 <andythenorth> until the first new contributor gets told off for pushing them in a PR by accident
15:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it's all translation changes
15:11:29 <andythenorth> it makes git add . very unwise :P
15:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so... this pr thing... how did i do that last time?
15:13:38 <andythenorth> fork, branch, push, github UI
15:15:41 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z opened pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI7h
15:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that worked?
15:16:14 <Alberth> andy, maybe gitsu could be useful?
15:18:29 <Alberth> how to get the current number of towns?
15:21:37 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI5m
15:28:04 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI54
15:30:28 <andythenorth> I can't approve :P
15:30:33 <andythenorth> don't know what else I should check
15:37:45 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: grats on getting #7000
15:38:02 <LordAro> andythenorth: ...can you not? i can
15:52:28 <Alberth> next problem, how to find the spot where the town index becomes broken
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16:06:29 <andythenorth> I'm going to approve my own PR
16:06:37 <andythenorth> life is too short for all this bureaucracy
16:14:15 <andythenorth> hmm, without Eddi's patch I don't think I can build a power tree
16:14:36 <andythenorth> there has to be a default value, and that will cause vehicles to be powered on unknown types
16:14:43 <andythenorth> which is correct in some cases and wrong in others
16:15:05 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #6999: Fix #6966: Only allow switching to a valid company. https://git.io/fhIFT
16:15:47 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6999: Fix #6966: Only allow switching to a valid company. https://git.io/fhIHP
16:15:51 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation https://git.io/fpIIo
16:26:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so var 6A would add a parameter to nml vehicle_is_powered var?
16:41:53 <andythenorth> what is vehicle_is_potentially_powered
16:42:44 <andythenorth> doesn't seem to correspond to var 4A
16:44:04 * andythenorth wonders how cb36 power interacts with railtype 'is powered' flag
16:44:40 <andythenorth> does an ELRL vehicle gain power on RAIL if I return > 0 in cb36?
16:50:12 <andythenorth> it's very unclear what result is expected for any given combination of railtype grf, rtt, and vars that might be used in cb 36
16:50:19 <andythenorth> oh and vehicle track_type
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16:50:29 <nielsm> lol how does this ever work at all
16:50:30 <andythenorth> which, awesomely, is railtype
16:50:34 <nielsm> looking at those diagrams
16:50:46 <andythenorth> nielsm: well mostly one just doesn't worry about that crap
16:50:54 <andythenorth> I think frosch made it as satire
16:51:13 <andythenorth> the commentary is about as rude as frosch ever talks
16:53:15 <planetmaker> he... indeed a supposedly simple thing as "vehicle refitting" is as complicated as that diagramme... could be much simpler :)
16:53:53 <andythenorth> given the 5 initial inputs, complexity is inevitable :P
16:54:37 <andythenorth> anyway I can't do this 'wagons add power' stuff with cb36 currently
16:54:44 <andythenorth> owing to failure to understand :P
16:56:34 <planetmaker> the complexity would already be much reduced, if it wouldn't differ by vehicle types :)
17:02:20 <andythenorth> even with the diagram I dont really understand :)
17:02:35 <andythenorth> I just set capacity with cb36, with specific handling of cargos like mail
17:04:35 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 updated pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting https://git.io/fhIyD
17:05:51 <Gabda> no more magic number :)
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17:11:33 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 commented on pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting https://git.io/fhINJ
17:24:35 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting https://git.io/fhINK
17:25:48 <planetmaker> nielsm, "Feature #xyz: bla bla" should actually be ok for our commit style
17:26:25 <planetmaker> whether Add: or Feature: is used is more a taste or style thing (Feature for big stuff, Add for small things)
17:28:03 <nielsm> I learned afterwards :)
17:28:42 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 commented on pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting https://git.io/fhINH
17:32:11 <Gabda> it is a good thing that there are Good first issue flags, it helps a lot get started
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17:43:41 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 updated pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting https://git.io/fhIyD
17:48:45 <andythenorth> what happens in python if functions call each other? :P
17:50:07 <andythenorth> def a(): assert(b); def b(): assert(a)
17:52:48 <Alberth> assert(b) is true, assert(b()) does a call :)
17:53:16 <Alberth> but infinite recursion until you hit the infinite recursion limit of 1000 calls
17:53:24 <andythenorth> yeah let's not :)
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17:54:09 <Alberth> I've had longer stack traces :p
17:56:07 <Alberth> gabda: some looked more complicated then "good first issue" to me, but ymmv
17:56:19 <andythenorth> contributions are nice :)
17:58:37 <andythenorth> maybe we could approve some PRs :P
17:59:41 <Alberth> eddi has a 1d20 which may come in handy
18:00:06 <Flipp3rrr> What is #openttd.notice ?
18:00:09 <andythenorth> but some are old, so we can ignore those
18:01:20 <Xaroth> closest I have is a D30
18:01:20 <andythenorth> I should try and fix NRT
18:01:45 <andythenorth> NRT is a world of conflicts, and I can't fix them inside a rebase without making a mess
18:01:57 <Alberth> Flipp3rrr: no idea, probably safe to ignore
18:02:01 <andythenorth> can I do smaller incremental rebases?
18:02:25 <Alberth> git allows it if that's what you mean :)
18:02:43 <andythenorth> is it an acceptable tactic?
18:02:58 <andythenorth> there's some stuff I absolutely cannot resolve
18:03:09 <andythenorth> but I could maybe reduce the conflicts for someone else
18:03:16 <Alberth> should I have a go at it?
18:03:21 <andythenorth> it's pretty painful
18:03:24 <nielsm> it might work, but I think most of the conflicts arrive in just very few commits
18:03:31 <Alberth> yeah, conflicts always are
18:03:34 <andythenorth> it's not just choosing which side to take
18:04:49 <andythenorth> there are about 9 conflicts with master
18:04:52 <Alberth> but basically, git checkout nrt; find a nice next rebase point between the current common ancestor and master, and git rebase <commit-hash>
18:04:53 <planetmaker> Flipp3rrr, it is - or probably used to be - an IRC channel which announces OpenTTD commits and issues
18:05:28 <andythenorth> there is a docs conflict where the last thinking was to simply throw away the NRT docs
18:05:39 <andythenorth> there is at least one openttd.grf sprite conflict
18:05:49 <andythenorth> which needs photoshop or gimp to resolve :P
18:05:59 <Flipp3rrr> planetmaker, I looked at the logs but there's absolutely no activity...
18:06:42 <Alberth> andy, but tomorrow, ok?
18:09:07 <planetmaker> Flipp3rrr, yeah, I recon as much. The bot activity there probably stopped with the move to git - and as such the change of both, bug tracker and CF
18:10:21 <andythenorth> oof I should sleep more
18:10:42 <andythenorth> can't even figure out how to return count_veh_id(foo) * power_amount
18:10:50 <andythenorth> I really don't know much nml :P
18:11:43 <andythenorth> do I have to construct a range for each possible value?
18:12:30 <planetmaker> default: return expression
18:13:51 * andythenorth often has to look up html and css too :P
18:14:40 <planetmaker> the example there hopefully covers everything, so one doesn't need to look at anything else
18:14:54 <planetmaker> the rest is definitely tldr; ;)
18:14:58 <andythenorth> I just failed to read return (<expression>|<string>);
18:18:35 <andythenorth> "return [1200 + (count_veh_id(foo) * 1200)];" works
18:18:48 <andythenorth> now I just need to do things properly w.r.t the power
18:19:37 <planetmaker> I'm sure that power based on the number of vehicles is a good design :D
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18:19:57 <andythenorth> for this specific type of very high speed train it's interesting
18:20:47 <andythenorth> ok that works now, and is much better than the previous 'drag engines to make the train'
18:28:47 <andythenorth> hmm, did "Coefficient of air drag" make it into nml? o_O
18:29:43 * andythenorth wonders just how pointless it is
18:31:40 <Alberth> I see no dots in that description
18:31:53 <planetmaker> I think there are few variables which didn't make it
18:32:16 <Alberth> hmm, wrong, 2 dots at the i-s
18:32:47 <andythenorth> I suspect it's a very pointless prop :)
18:33:15 <Alberth> depends on how fast you travel :)
18:33:39 <andythenorth> in the case of the train I am testing, the default would be 8/140
18:33:44 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.0571428571429
18:34:02 <andythenorth> oh it's speed in km/h
18:34:13 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.0355555555556
18:34:20 <andythenorth> setting it to 0 makes no difference :)
18:34:24 <andythenorth> setting it to 1....does
18:35:40 <Alberth> useful for making a train grf for planets with only water at their surface
18:39:44 <Samu> is it intended that vehicles don't autorenew when breakdowns are disabled?
18:40:02 <Samu> I suppose it is, but it's just another headache for ais
18:41:20 <planetmaker> Samu, why would you need vehicles to autorenew when they cannot break down
18:42:56 <andythenorth> 'AI will take our jobs'
18:44:09 <Alberth> no idea how to proceed now
18:44:50 <andythenorth> almost exactly, except the fake engines are fake
18:45:33 <Alberth> I do hope you wash the pixels first, they are dirty at the picture
18:47:16 <andythenorth> although it's....unwise for gameplay :P
18:47:57 <Alberth> pax?! changing game play eh?
18:48:50 <Alberth> I played with maglev for a change, it's great, no worries about distance any more :)
18:55:38 <andythenorth> this works less well when wagons can add power :P
18:55:47 <andythenorth> 'Max Power' is also then lies
18:56:54 <andythenorth> alternatives: showing a power range is meaningless if there's no upper bound
18:57:21 <andythenorth> option to hide 'power'?
18:57:37 <andythenorth> hmm, fails with sorting
18:59:14 <andythenorth> it's impossible :D
19:03:09 <Samu> it switches vehicle indexes, it always breaks something in the ai
19:03:24 <Samu> t.t bah, i'm sad, seems i can't use autorenew
19:04:07 <peter1138> Well you get a new vehicle.
19:04:13 <Alberth> that's not bad, it also means you don't need to handle autorenew failures
19:04:31 <Samu> but i lose track of vehicles
19:04:51 * andythenorth has no idea what the problem is
19:05:18 <andythenorth> why would an AI ever be tracking individual vehicles? o_O
19:05:20 <Samu> it can get assigned to some other vehicles, the other day I had aircraft being sold in depots, while I was trying to sell road vehicles
19:06:23 <andythenorth> using other vehicle props?
19:06:43 <andythenorth> then check the hash before selling
19:06:44 <Alberth> can't you give a vehicle a name?
19:07:08 <andythenorth> don't they have numbers also?
19:07:34 <andythenorth> I'm sure I miss something, it just seems simple from this side of the fence :)
19:08:04 <Alberth> the number is what is being re-used I think :)
19:08:27 <andythenorth> autorenew changes the vehicle number? o_O
19:08:30 <andythenorth> that's a feature I missed
19:08:57 <andythenorth> sounds like a bug :)
19:09:07 * andythenorth has never read the AI spec :P
19:09:25 <Samu> i investigated autorenew code, what it does is build a new vehicle, this new vehicle has its own index
19:09:42 <Samu> then everything is copied over from the old vehicle to the new
19:09:51 <Samu> everything except the indexes
19:09:59 <Samu> that's what's breaking my lists on the ai
19:10:07 <Alberth> peter1138: I was digging in #6605, but don't know what to do next, any ideas?
19:10:09 <andythenorth> Samu: so vehicle_id is being changed?
19:10:27 <peter1138> What's #6605? Link?
19:11:56 <andythenorth> Samu: if vehicle_id doesn't work then most of the vehicle NoAI spec is useless :)
19:12:02 <andythenorth> so you might want to give up :)
19:12:04 <andythenorth> but I doubt you will
19:12:25 <Samu> it does work when they remain the same
19:12:35 <Samu> which means, not using autorenew
19:12:36 <andythenorth> "Also note, that some IDs are static and never change, while others are allocated dynamically and might be reused for other objects once they are released. So be careful, which IDs you store for which purpose and whether they stay valid all the time."
19:13:16 <andythenorth> so give every vehicle a UUID as the name
19:13:25 <andythenorth> then iterate the vehicles, looking for that UUID
19:13:31 <andythenorth> then pull the vehicle ID off
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19:14:17 <andythenorth> in systems with only one loop, it's usually safe to do UUIDs as simple numbers, starting at 0 and incrementing
19:15:04 <andythenorth> what's GetUnitNumber for?
19:15:15 <Alberth> you may want to check the name is actually copied (although that should be the case)
19:15:39 <andythenorth> can NoAI use vehicle groups?
19:15:41 <Samu> the name is copied over, probably
19:15:44 <andythenorth> just put vehicles in classes
19:15:47 <Samu> i'm trying to use groups
19:16:13 <andythenorth> this is more fun than solving my own problems :)
19:16:17 <andythenorth> armchair problem solving
19:16:19 <andythenorth> no skin in the game
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19:16:34 <peter1138> Alberth, I guess as you asked me, this is something I touched many years ago?
19:16:42 <andythenorth> a couple of years ago
19:17:00 <Alberth> perhaps, but not that point where it ends
19:17:13 <Alberth> that was RB adding the m2
19:17:21 <andythenorth> oh nvm it's a different issue
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19:21:17 <peter1138> Alberth, hmm, is d->xy wrong?
19:22:18 <Alberth> I had a depot entry at that tile at some point
19:25:01 <Alberth> no idea, haven't seen the map
19:25:31 <andythenorth> where * is some extra text footnote
19:27:39 <Samu> trying to switch everything from AILists and {} and [] into AIGroups
19:28:06 <Samu> seems that groups are the future
19:28:34 <Alberth> at least it's unexplored territory :)
19:29:00 <andythenorth> manage things in classes, not individually
19:29:08 <andythenorth> GL when you need them to be in two groups at once :P
19:29:08 <Samu> performing savegame conversion
19:29:29 <Samu> oh, that actually happened
19:29:36 <andythenorth> oof, if I can't find a clever hack for this 'Power: xxx' problem, I have to delete all these vehicles :)
19:29:40 <andythenorth> that would be sad
19:30:24 <andythenorth> and that gets kicked to the start or end of any sort list
19:30:29 <andythenorth> treat it like either infinite, or 0
19:30:47 <Samu> each route has 2 groups, one is the sent to depot group, which all routes use, the other is the route group
19:31:39 <Samu> i can still identify the vehicles being sent to depots as part of the same group
19:31:55 <andythenorth> who has more lines in this channel, me or Samu? o_O
19:32:20 <TrueBrain> lines that contribute to a conversation, or just "lines"? :P
19:32:43 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed pull request #6997: Change: show 'Max. Power' for vehicles rather than 'Power' https://git.io/fhIMr
19:32:44 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #6997: Change: show 'Max. Power' for vehicles rather than 'Power' https://git.io/fhIjz
19:32:56 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: be interesting to see a plot of both
19:32:58 <Alberth> make #openttd.teddy-bear TB :)
19:33:15 <andythenorth> can I hack dorpsgek to be a bear?
19:33:21 <andythenorth> random encouraging responses
19:33:34 <TrueBrain> be careful what you wish for :D
19:34:19 <andythenorth> ["have you googled that?", "are you sure this is necessary?", "did you check you're on the right branch?"]
19:34:22 <TrueBrain> for some reason, I am dreading setting up k8s for OpenTTD ..
19:34:25 <TrueBrain> and I am not sure why ..
19:34:42 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: is there any reason you can't do it whilst drinking?
19:35:04 <TrueBrain> do I want to answer that question? :P
19:35:15 <andythenorth> well some people can't or don't drink :P
19:35:31 <andythenorth> but generally sysadmin seems to go better when drinking
19:35:51 <TrueBrain> until the next day; turns out they did burn the building after all
19:36:05 * andythenorth wonders if we'll see a frog soon
19:36:22 <TrueBrain> xmas hit him hard, I guess
19:42:05 <Samu> when sending road vehicles to depots, sometimes it fails, especially if the vehicle is right in front of the depot :(
19:42:36 <Samu> pathfinder doesn't reverse on loading trucks?
19:43:08 <Alberth> nope, with path signals it doesn't even change the path that has been reserved
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19:43:26 <Samu> i'm talking about road vehicles
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19:46:10 <Samu> yep, only happens with loading bays
19:46:18 <Samu> doesn't happen with drivethrough
19:47:28 <Samu> pathfinder doesn't reverse search on laoding bays
19:52:36 <Samu> if it gets fixed, it will simplify code on my AI
19:52:58 <Samu> i won't have to insert an order to depot in the order list
19:53:10 <Samu> I really wanna avoid doing that
19:54:48 <Alberth> why insert? can't you just give the vehicle new orders?
19:58:21 <Samu> if the vehicle is unprofitable, i may want to send it to depot
19:58:53 <Samu> but if it can't find a depot, i'm forced to insert a go to depot order
20:02:12 <andythenorth> why does peter get the benefit of a highlight?
20:02:31 <Samu> I remember he was familiar with yapf npf stuff
20:05:50 <Samu> on NPF, it can find the depot
20:09:48 <Alberth> Samu: It's much more efficient to make a ticket for problems
20:19:28 <andythenorth> looks all wrong apparently
20:29:19 <Alberth> seems a bit more round in the horse
20:29:59 <Alberth> almost a tank wagon :p
20:31:05 <Alberth> what struck me was however the Hurly Burly, it looked like an upside down wagon at first sight :p
20:32:22 <Alberth> FlinderMouse has it a bit too, the black at the top misguides me :)
20:32:44 <andythenorth> I'm fine with some 'wtf' :)
20:35:09 <Alberth> about the shredder, from the photo, I expected more like the chinook, less high highlighted sides
20:37:25 <Alberth> No_13 looks much less massive at the top than the Hurly Burly
20:38:27 <andythenorth> oh the sides of the Shredder look like they bulge out?
20:38:45 <Alberth> especially the blue one
20:53:19 <andythenorth> YAPF can't find road depots
20:53:24 <andythenorth> which is why breakdowns have to be off
20:53:30 <andythenorth> which is why reliability is meaningless
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21:02:52 <andythenorth> Wolf01 Wolf03 WolfN
21:03:19 <Wolf03> Who is he? I didn't disconnect
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21:06:49 <Alberth> and de-multiplexed again :)
21:11:16 <TrueBrain> brrr, demuxers .. they are the worst
21:11:32 <TrueBrain> do you know how difficult it is to implement a demuxer where entries have to synchronize?
21:11:41 <TrueBrain> it still haunts me in my sleep
21:12:21 <Wolf01> I had to design a setial to parallel to serial converter in high school
21:12:47 <Samu> Your script made an error: attempt to call 'instance'
21:12:58 <Samu> sentToDepotList = sentToDepotList(1);
21:13:37 <Samu> sentToDepotList = this.sentToDepotList(1);
21:14:45 <Samu> it solved it. I never understand when I have to use "this" and when I don't
21:21:01 <nielsm> presumably you need to when calling a method on an instance
21:22:01 <nielsm> this.sentToDepotList is a bound value including a reference to the object "this" refers to, while just sentToDepotList is unbound lacking the reference
21:26:25 <Alberth> Samu: you notice how the left side and the right side use the same name?
21:27:30 <Alberth> so while you may think the left side and right side use different things, they don't, as a name always points to the same thing no matter where you use it
21:28:42 <Alberth> the "this" reduces the scope from everything to just things inside the object, which means you now use two different things
22:31:56 <Gabda> is it possible, that the IConsoleSetSetting function needs a whole game cycle to update the given value?
22:32:37 <Gabda> so that in the next program line if we ask for the value, we got the up-updated one?
22:34:38 <TrueBrain> okay, I think I have it working ... I can now bootstrap any random kubernetes cluster to run OpenTTD's infrastructure (well, the parts that are ported .. read: nothing yet)
22:34:43 <TrueBrain> which is pretty sweet :)
22:34:50 <TrueBrain> means people can even experiment with it at home :P
22:37:29 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD-IaC now automatically builds .. I really like Azure Pipelines
22:37:32 <TrueBrain> so much easier to work with
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23:14:37 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] saxbophone commented on issue #6832: RetroAppX selling OpenTTD on Microsoft Store https://git.io/fhLIz
continue to next day ⏵
