IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-12-24
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00:21:07 <Zuu_> Talking of communication, some time ago I and andythenorth collaborated on a patch that allowed GS:es to talk with NewGRF allowing GS to trigger actions in NewGRFs such as production boost or tech tree etc. :-)
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00:24:31 <planetmaker> did that patch make it into trunk?
00:25:11 <Zuu_> It was fun, but quite complex to work on.
00:26:37 <Zuu_> There probably was unresolved issues, but I know I had a working demo with a fork of BusyBee that increased production when you completed goals.
00:27:02 <planetmaker> that sounds like a pretty fun application
00:27:09 <planetmaker> "build your own economy"
00:28:05 <nielsm> making it as a bunch of individual features would be good imo
00:28:14 <nielsm> GS control of industry production
00:28:35 <nielsm> and vehicle availability
00:29:44 <Zuu_> The source code patcch is quite short actually.
00:30:30 <Zuu_> But then it includes things like // TODO :-)
00:31:54 <nielsm> I actually working on my own patch for that earlier, got it sort-of working but then discovered there's all sorts of complications with smooth vs. traditional production change
00:32:12 <nielsm> and then there's newindustries with special rules per industry type
00:33:13 <Zuu_> There is the discussion on regarding should the GS just send messages to specially crafted NewGRF or should it more forcefully run over the NewGRF.
00:34:11 <nielsm> for vehicle types, it might be useful for a GS to be able to block vehicle ID's from being built by each company individually
00:34:30 <Zuu_> The hard part is that one need to understand how NewGRFs interact with OpenTTD which is beyond my knowledge as being someone mainly focused on AIs and GS and a bit of UI patches.
00:35:58 <Zuu_> Yes some way of blocking engineId per company would be useful.
00:36:48 <Zuu_> One complication in this interaction is also how async GS are compared to NewGRFs that respond instantly and async and sync doesn't alwys play well togeather.
00:36:57 <nielsm> maybe also offsetting introduction dates
00:36:58 <planetmaker> hm. And honestly, whichever way one picks: there will be people who will complain. "my newgrf being nerfed! How dare you"
00:37:40 <nielsm> the answer is that it's the player's choice
00:38:03 <nielsm> you can ask the player to not change your intended gameplay but you can't force them
00:38:05 <planetmaker> :) *I* know. But not every realism fan
00:39:25 <_dp_> it's not just async, GS only works on server and NewGRFs work on both sides
00:39:29 <planetmaker> Ignoring that, we have the problem that we might end up with two entities (GS, NewGRF) trying to control the same thing (like introduction dates, production,...)
00:39:33 <_dp_> > Yes some way of blocking engineId per company would be useful.
00:40:10 <planetmaker> and _dp_ has a point: GS is server-side. NewGRF works locally.
00:43:38 <planetmaker> so there's two approaches... cooperative, like a CB flags inside cooperating NewGRFs for things like industries which allow a GS to provide input.
00:43:49 <planetmaker> But for company-restrictions... there is no such way
00:44:00 <nielsm> imo a GS should just override with the newgrf having no way of knowing
00:44:55 <nielsm> a GS would signal it wants to override vehicle data, and then all vehicles are default-unavailable until the GS explicitly enables them
00:45:40 <planetmaker> yes-ish. But "simply override" probably does not work easily. Especially for trains
00:46:12 <planetmaker> thinking of the "can attach wagon" callback, articulated vehicle composition and similar
00:46:30 <nielsm> I'm thinking only introduction/expiry dates and costs can be overridden, and costs only by a factor
00:46:58 <nielsm> i.e. you specify you want 2x cost over newgrf-supplied value
00:47:08 <planetmaker> even then. Articulated vehicles are a true bitch here. NewGRF might form it different for different dates etc
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00:50:21 <_dp_> We can have some gs api that only works without newgrfs
00:51:43 <_dp_> at least that's the best solution I can think of for features that are constantly blocked by newgrfs
00:53:32 <planetmaker> hm. I would aim for a slightly broader usability. No NewGRF is very limiting
00:53:38 <nielsm> another GS change I want to have made is allow the GS to detect whether it's running under scenario editor or real game, and allow some more direct communication between user and GS in the scenario editor
00:53:49 <_dp_> can be more specific too, e.g. it works if no articulated vehicles defined
00:53:53 <planetmaker> But we could introduce a NewGRF flag which allows cooperation with GS.
00:54:12 <planetmaker> hm... GS in *scenario mode*?
00:54:37 <planetmaker> anyhow, you can detect that already, can't you? You can query the game mode
00:54:57 <planetmaker> at least NewGRF can; but GS can, too, I'd recon
00:57:01 <_dp_> actually that may be a complete solution, newgrf flag for compatible newgrfs and features check for non-compatible
00:57:05 <planetmaker> via GSGameSettings::GetValue maybe?
00:57:45 <planetmaker> _dp_, it solves it. Somewhat. The backdraw is: it requires explicit NewGRF cooperation
00:58:28 <planetmaker> There is another solution: NewGRF version. Increase that - and any NewGRF written in the new version, automatically consents. And new NewGRF features are only available for that new version...
01:00:17 <_dp_> planetmaker, yeah, sounds fine too
01:00:18 <planetmaker> like grf v8 allows to use 32bpp. And easier composing of sprites, access to some callbacks which the old version doesn't allow
01:00:43 <planetmaker> but that was introduced due to necessity as those extensions required incompatible changes
01:00:45 <_dp_> planetmaker, after all it usually exotic theoretic possibilites that block features not something newgrfs actually do
01:01:03 <planetmaker> yeah. Mostly true
01:01:15 <Zuu_> nielsm: One thing I have in my plie of patches that never got completed is interactive story book elements. Think input fields and buttons or even a form.
01:01:32 <nielsm> Zuu_ exactly something like that :)
01:01:44 <planetmaker> Honestly, I think the complete extension system of OpenTTD is borked. Not for bad reasons. But for historical reasons. It lacks a uniform design
01:02:37 <planetmaker> But to completely rework that... dunno whether that's feasible at all
01:03:05 <nielsm> ah you already posted in the thread :)
01:03:10 <planetmaker> haha, the 1st reply is by Zu u :P
01:04:18 <nielsm> one of the features I wanted for it was marking industries as "keep in stasis until someone services it"
01:04:49 <planetmaker> that needs... integration with NewGRF, *I think*
01:04:53 <nielsm> (i.e. an industry that doesn't increase or decrease production, or close, until someone starts using it)
01:04:58 <planetmaker> though I never really understood why
01:05:20 <planetmaker> probably because the prod. callback can return sth like 'close this industry'
01:05:23 <_dp_> yeah, I did a whole thing that detects industry closure and instantly rebuilds it in place xD
01:05:39 <nielsm> couldn't you just not query the industry for anything at all if it's marked as "frozen"?
01:06:02 <nielsm> never call any cb's or otherwise
01:06:03 <planetmaker> I'd recon one could
01:06:53 <nielsm> trouble is if you want to change production
01:07:18 <nielsm> would probably need a new cb (or new flag for existing cb) for indicating "gs wants you to change production"
01:08:26 <_dp_> and instant change if there is no one listening to it
01:08:50 <nielsm> (the GS would send off a message and never know if it succeeded)
01:09:16 <nielsm> (but should have a way of knowing if the industry is capable of changing production levels)
01:09:40 <nielsm> (is anyone taking notes on all this?)
01:09:48 <_dp_> doesn't it already have a way to check production?
01:09:53 <nielsm> I'm getting really tired, should say gn
01:12:34 <planetmaker> an industry cannot have no production callback
01:13:05 <planetmaker> either it defines its own. Or if not, the default CB for the industry of its type is used
01:13:09 <planetmaker> but there always is one
01:13:21 <Zuu_> Hmm src/script/api/squirrel_export.sh still seem to call svn to set eol style on files.
01:14:06 <planetmaker> hehe. "a bit" outdated
01:15:51 <planetmaker> but I should also say 'good night'. So... good night :)
01:52:36 <Zuu_> Not sure if it makes sense though.
01:54:35 <Zuu_> I'm poundering adding a new AI-read-only field on goals that GS can set.
01:55:33 <Zuu_> Would handle most GS -> AI info needs. Maybe with an AI event when this data changes.
02:02:23 <Zuu_> But then the city builders will request a similar thing on town requirements, so perhaps a generic data board is still better or message queue. But the later need to have messages persisted in save game. And then you probably have to implement it for all events which is nice but a much larger task.
02:03:49 <Zuu_> And all type of event based communication have the problem that if the AI saves just after it has read the event and OpenTTD destroys it from the save, but before the AI has processed the meaning of it, then there is a loss. So there is a need for re-sending and ping-ponging data.
02:04:46 <Zuu_> While a wall/board where GS can post data is more clearly persisted and the AI can read it whenever it want more or less without synchronization with the GS.
02:05:20 <Zuu_> But well, it is late and christmas so Good night.
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10:06:51 <stefino> hi all, we have a problem with MUSA. It gives a socket error - errno 10054 - connection was end by remote host (or somethink like this - I ave it in czech). Any idea what's wrong?
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10:47:56 <nielsm> sigh won't have time to work on anything in nml or fix those build/prospect industry window string bugs, have to leave for family in a few
10:52:47 <planetmaker> merry Christmas everyone :)
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11:36:44 <stefino> hi all, we have a problem with MUSA. It gives a socket error - errno 10054 - connection was end by remote host (or somethink like this - I ave it in czech). Any idea what's wrong?
11:40:12 <nielsm> it can be pretty much anything, a problem with firewalls/routers on your end, some equipment at your ISP failing, or a server problem
11:40:36 <nielsm> and btw the screenshot you posted of the error, it has your password in it so you may want to remove that again (or change your password)
11:43:26 <stefino> yeah I know, forgot to remove it :D But I dont think there are people what wanna to change anything in ma profile ...in the end - it will be their problem in case we will stop produce graphics :D
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11:48:08 <stefino> but thanks for remind :)
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12:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you have one day for the other 11%
12:23:54 <andythenorth> or I release at < 100%
12:23:57 <andythenorth> or I remove stuff
12:26:21 <planetmaker> I know a guy who once told me "release early, release often" :)
12:29:12 <planetmaker> anyhow... I'm off for now, too.
12:29:25 <_dp_> microsoft way? it compiles -> sell it
12:32:11 <_dp_> Zuu_, having some way for GS to globally declare goal settings would also benefit patched clients
12:33:09 <_dp_> like right now I'm using newgrf storage for that on our servers and some sketchy GS strings parsing for other servers
12:35:11 <_dp_> though I'm storing there all the stuff I have not just goal settings
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13:03:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: sprites are complete for all vehicles 1950-2000
13:04:06 <Eddi|zuHause> or you do that one day of work and then release? :p
13:06:04 * andythenorth still has to make some sprites to test vehicle offsets
13:06:09 <andythenorth> offsets are still wrong
13:06:22 <andythenorth> why we don't just patch nml to do the offsets for each length, I don't know :P
13:06:54 <andythenorth> presumably there must be some actually 'correct' values for offsets?
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13:30:41 <Wolf01> So, with the ISP's modem the connection is more stable but I have absolute no control on it, strict NAT and so on, I had to reconnect my modem to play :|
13:31:53 <TrueBrain> if that stefino drops by again, tell him he is not the author of the content, so he can not upload a newer version for it :)
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13:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the "correct" way is to make them once for each template and then forget about them?
13:44:12 <andythenorth> but every author has to repeat
14:00:13 <peter1138> It'd be disasterous if we implemented support for 32bpp pixels...
14:05:17 <Eddi|zuHause> who would ever want THAT?
14:08:18 <andythenorth> apparently 32bpp FIRS
14:08:32 <andythenorth> not by me though
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14:13:14 <TrueBrain> funny, if you force push a new commit while the Azure CI is running, it will fail when starting a new job .. as it tries to checkout a now invalid ref :D
14:13:17 <TrueBrain> guess that isn't a biggy
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14:13:52 <andythenorth> "force-push considered harmful"
14:14:20 <TrueBrain> and rightfully so :)
14:14:21 <orudge> TrueBrain: if you want me to apply for an official Azure DevOps account through the OpenTTD MS account at some point, let me know (or I can give you the login details)
14:14:40 <TrueBrain> orudge: good you are here, I have two things for you :P
14:14:48 <TrueBrain> that being one of them :D
14:15:11 <TrueBrain> do we have an OpenTTD MS account?
14:15:31 <orudge> the Windows Store version is published through it
14:15:44 <TrueBrain> we have a published version on Windows Store?
14:15:48 <TrueBrain> thought you were working on that :P
14:16:05 <orudge> just the official desktop app rebundled basically
14:16:05 <TrueBrain> why isn't this on the frontpage?
14:16:12 <orudge> No idea how to post on the front page :D
14:16:18 <orudge> I maybe knew once upon a time
14:16:34 <orudge> maybe I just need to log n
14:16:34 <TrueBrain> why is there still a 2 euro version on the store ..
14:16:41 <TrueBrain> orudge: poke frosch123 or something :P
14:16:48 <orudge> TrueBrain: We'd need a trademark to get MS to remove it
14:16:52 <orudge> I did contact them about it
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14:17:11 <TrueBrain> why is the background image this blue? That looks weeeiiirrrrdddd
14:17:38 <orudge> Yeah, that needs a little bit of work
14:17:47 <orudge> plus some more screenshots/videos etc would be nice
14:18:39 <orudge> but it works, x86 and x64 versions both on there
14:18:43 <TrueBrain> orudge: well, if you would be so kind to create a devops space, and assign my email address to the allowed users :)
14:18:57 <orudge> I'm slowly working on bits that should eventually enable a UWP build if we so desire
14:19:10 <TrueBrain> that would be very good :)
14:20:26 <TrueBrain> right, and let me fix the second question I have for you .. need to prepare stuff for that :)
14:20:51 <orudge> I'll probably only be on for another 30 minutes or so, then I must get back to Christmas things :)
14:21:27 <TrueBrain> I cant remember how I created the azure pipelines account, but I am sure you can figure that out yourself :D
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14:27:15 <andythenorth> nobody looks at | views, right? :P
14:29:07 <TrueBrain> argh, greylisting makes this take for everrrrrrrr
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14:30:37 <TrueBrain> orudge: my next question is going to be if you can activate the digitalocean account I am creating ... just ...... it takes for ever to do that :D
14:31:15 <TrueBrain> I click resend, but I dont think it really resends .. so I have to wait for another try of their MTA :(
14:32:01 <orudge> TrueBrain: does that require billing details, I assume? I can do so if/when an e-mail comes through or you send me details; it may be a couple of days before I get a chance if I don't get it shortly though
14:33:00 <TrueBrain> yeah, billing indeed :D
14:33:11 <TrueBrain> and that is okay ... there is no real rush :D
14:33:18 <TrueBrain> I just wanted to use the oppurtinity :D
14:33:50 <TrueBrain> email is being email
14:35:02 <TrueBrain> they use different sendernames for each mail .. each getting stuck in the greylisting :D Lolz :D
14:39:06 <TrueBrain> tnx a lot orudge :)
14:39:12 <TrueBrain> and already a merry xmas :D
14:40:35 <TrueBrain> awh, we get no free credits? Boooeeeee
14:40:58 <orudge> Send them an e-mail maybe
14:41:05 <orudge> I'm sure they used to offer $100 or so
14:41:36 <TrueBrain> I should have used referal
14:41:45 <TrueBrain> and on my personal account I just got $100 :P
14:41:53 <TrueBrain> owh well, not the worst thing :)
14:42:11 <TrueBrain> bit silly I forgot referal :(
14:43:25 <TrueBrain> hmm, everything suggests we should receive it indeed :) Owh well, I will figure that out :)
15:42:10 <TrueBrain> yippie, finally building all the containers on Azure works :D
15:46:19 <andythenorth> TrueBrain is santa
15:47:10 <TrueBrain> would be a bit weird :P
16:02:11 <TrueBrain> now I need to do the step that might break the current CI :D
16:05:32 <Samu> function IsCompanyValueGSGame(); function IsCompanyValueGSInGoalMode(); function IsCompanyValueGSInRankingMode(); function GetBestCompanyID(); function GetBestCompanyValue(); function GetCurrentTargetValue();
16:05:56 <Samu> which questions should be available to ask?
16:06:32 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: winner is you
16:08:59 <TrueBrain> it takes 10 agents to build all the release/CI containers we have in 10 minutes :P
16:09:12 <TrueBrain> took a bit longer when I build them on my own machine :D
16:12:02 <andythenorth> never draw asymmetric trains
16:12:06 <andythenorth> 50% of life wasted
16:12:59 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how long it used to take?
16:13:27 <andythenorth> faster is better
16:13:51 <TrueBrain> seems you get 10 free agents per project, not per job
16:13:51 <andythenorth> slow CI is for peasants
16:14:10 <TrueBrain> so .. do I need to make a project per GitHub project? :P
16:14:18 <TrueBrain> (they suggest to make a Pipeline per github project)
16:14:24 <TrueBrain> I DONT LIKE SHARING
16:23:02 <andythenorth> I stole your caps
16:35:06 <andythenorth> exactly 52000 sprites in Horse
16:35:10 <andythenorth> what are the chances of that? o_O
16:35:17 <andythenorth> someone do probability? o_O
16:46:29 <TrueBrain> it is getting shape :)
16:47:47 * andythenorth 90% done on Horse sprites
16:48:15 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: did Microsoft learn to design?
16:48:20 <andythenorth> it looks...more than ok :o
16:48:28 <andythenorth> better than Google anyway
16:48:40 <TrueBrain> I was as surprised as you are :D
16:48:50 <TrueBrain> there are a few quirks in the interface, but overall it is very nice
16:49:31 <andythenorth> it's almost like they actually want to win
16:50:13 <TrueBrain> it is almost like they stopped wanting to win, and just want to be part of
16:51:15 <andythenorth> >90% done = release, right? :P
16:51:28 * andythenorth completes a few more things
16:51:35 <andythenorth> then it's > 90000%
16:51:57 <andythenorth> depends how many of our introverts are stuck with their families :)
16:52:24 <Samu> help guys, what do you think a function named GetCompanyIDRank(company_id) will do? wondering if it's unclear
16:52:36 <Samu> may need to improve name
17:00:11 <TrueBrain> wow, GitHub shows force pushes now, including the old ref. That is nice
17:02:48 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I think I will make the 'download' stuff on www.openttd.org a very small flask application that only does downloads. That would be sweet, fast, and maintainable :D
17:03:09 <TrueBrain> possibly combined with Spaces from DigitalOcean .. free CDN :) (well, 'free')
17:04:04 <TrueBrain> either way, time to make myself some epic fooooddddd :D
17:05:25 <Samu> what other questions would be useful to ask?
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18:19:27 <frosch123> why did everything on the docker files change? weird eol?
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19:15:59 <TrueBrain> frosch123: not that I am aware; just moving of files mostly
19:16:06 <TrueBrain> possibly git lost track :D
19:16:43 <TrueBrain> so the free trial on DigitalOcean doesnt work for team accounts .. well .. that is just odd
19:20:42 <glx> hey TrueBrain, vcpkg works well to build 64bit, but fails to link against zlib and freetype in 32bit
19:21:22 <ekcja> Hello may I ask something?
19:21:38 <DorpsGek> glx: topic [<channel>]
19:21:46 <DorpsGek> glx: topic [<channel>]
19:23:02 <DorpsGek> glx: Don't ask to ask, just ask
19:23:14 <glx> finally found the command
19:23:24 <ekcja> Why can't I rejoin when I have been kicked?
19:23:28 <ekcja> Is this like a ban or something?
19:23:55 <glx> probably something to ask to the server admin
19:26:28 <TrueBrain> glx: I noticed too yes; haven't looked into it yet ... seems a bit weird
19:26:33 <TrueBrain> any clue what is going on there?
19:26:53 <TrueBrain> are the libs in the correct format etc? (can't test locally .. hard to debug :D)
19:28:48 <TrueBrain> can you fiddle around with it a bit? Try a new project with only zlib or something?
19:28:51 <TrueBrain> see what is going on?
19:49:51 <Samu> can AIs respond to popup windows?
19:50:05 <Samu> can they click "Continue" or so that the AIs send?
19:51:20 <Samu> the GS pauses the game, the AI code doesn't run when game is paused
19:51:56 <Samu> what if the GS didn't pause?
20:00:03 <TrueBrain> glx: do you think we still need mingw support (for win95/win98)? Or did we already drop those targets :P
20:12:08 <TrueBrain> hmm, no notifications of Translation commit? Odd :D
20:12:27 <TrueBrain> right, lets see if the new images still work as expected ....
20:15:02 <TrueBrain> every Saturday at 2200 new images are created for the CF. This means we stay up-to-date with what-ever upstream is doing :)
20:15:17 <TrueBrain> frosch123: ^^ mostly important for you to know too, I guess :)
20:16:49 <frosch123> TrueBrain: there is no compiler for win9x that supports c++11 or newer
20:16:59 <TrueBrain> frosch123: mingw64 doesn't?
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20:17:29 <frosch123> mingw32 compiles for 9x but does not c++11. mingw64 does c++11 but does not 9x
20:17:43 <TrueBrain> so .. I can remove mingw from my list :)
20:17:46 <frosch123> (based on knowledge from last year)
20:18:06 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: did we want to squash www.openttd.org repository into a single commit, or are we fine with all these commits?
20:19:51 <frosch123> TrueBrain: is the 2200 thing about nightlies, or also about the CI for PR?
20:20:12 <TrueBrain> frosch123: every saturday at 2200, all the images for the CF (both the CI and the releases) are rebuild
20:20:39 <TrueBrain> yeah .. just one drawback: it can happen, without anyone doing anything, that builds start to fail :)
20:20:51 <TrueBrain> we still want to know that, but it might take a bit of putting 2 and 2 together to figure out why :D
20:21:53 <TrueBrain> next thing on the agenda: port Jenkins to Azure Pipelines
20:21:57 <TrueBrain> faster CI results :D
20:22:32 <TrueBrain> most of the work is already done .. I just have to put in the container stuff :)
20:29:08 <TrueBrain> Azure Pipelines contains most of the stuff I was looking for; which is rather nice :D
20:29:13 <TrueBrain> it even has a deployment dashboard :P
20:30:48 <TrueBrain> right, before I can do the CI for OpenTTD, we have to find out why 32bit vcpkg stuff doesnt work I guess
20:35:22 <TrueBrain> some minor differences in the lib files .. but I dont know enough about them to judge that :D
20:35:33 <TrueBrain> in the 64bit lib it is called 'deflate'. In the 32bit lib it is called '_deflate'
20:35:41 <TrueBrain> who knows if that matters :P
20:41:10 <TrueBrain> glx: possibly zlib fails because vcpkg renamed zlibstatic.lib to zlib.lib
20:41:19 <TrueBrain> it might be worth trying renaming it back, and see what that does for the build
20:44:26 <Samu> need to know if it's easy to understand for others
20:44:49 <Samu> or if there's still doubts or improvements to be made, the functions are at the bottom, just in case
21:07:31 <peter1138> TrueBrain, just deprecate (drop) 32 bit Windows builds :D
21:46:13 <Taede> samu: seems fine aside from some minor grammar points
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23:18:01 <glx> TrueBrain: renaming is not the problem, as it's done for 64bit too
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23:48:40 <Zuu> Samu: GetCompanyIDRank could be changed into a method that returns an AIList. Eg. your sorted global_list. Then the AI doesn't need to rebuild the list for each company ID if it wants to build a list itself.
23:50:00 <Zuu> Otherwise it looks good. And would be good also with GetCompanyIDRank. Usually you probably is most concerned with if you are leading or not and the gap between your company value and the target.
23:52:17 <Zuu> Or you want to know the companyId of the leading company so you can focus on competition against that company, buth at has a method already.
continue to next day ⏵
