IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-08-14
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00:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that image has a few cycles of pixelrot happen since yesterday
00:51:45 <Eddi|zuHause> (it's not complete there, either)
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09:32:00 <andythenorth> planetmaker: 9 seconds apart :P
09:33:55 <nielsm> time to organize all these limit breakings in a "project"? :D
09:54:04 <andythenorth> I think we should bump grf version and break some more things
09:54:17 <andythenorth> frosch has a wishlist for grf v9 somewhere
09:56:14 <andythenorth> maybe not that one
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11:50:12 <nielsm> this is getting slightly spammy :)
11:50:25 <nielsm> otoh nobody else is talking so not really an issue
11:50:29 <LordAro> yeah, not sure we need comments
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12:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly what i meant when i said "aren't these better suited for #openttd.notice"
12:48:38 <eirc> hey ppl I'd like some advice on I thing I wanna make: basically I want to automatically grab whole map screenshots but I'm not sure how to approach "scripting" the client. maybe with a newgrf?
12:49:44 <eirc> maybe I could do it from the console? can it run loops?
12:55:24 <LordAro> eirc: you want a "Giant screenshot"
12:55:28 <LordAro> it's in the game already
12:57:12 <nielsm> the question is about automating it, isn't it?
12:57:36 <nielsm> starting the game, loading a save, producing a screenshot, exiting
12:58:22 <LordAro> seems like the sort of thing the admin console should be able to do
12:58:42 <nielsm> actually, can headless/dedicated mode make screenshots? the blitter is decoupled from video output so theoretically it should be possible right?
12:58:48 <nielsm> (I don't know if it's in or not)
12:59:09 <LordAro> i don't see why not, theoretically :p
13:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be possible, but maybe you need to override the dedicated blitter setting
13:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> however, making a giant screenshot on the server might lock it up and drop every connection
13:06:13 <nielsm> yes don't do it on a running server :P
13:06:42 <eirc> oh it'd pause the game for everyone? that sucks :/
13:06:53 <nielsm> on unix-like systems it actually ought to be possible to fork() and perform the screenshot on a frozen state of the game, right?
13:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, similar to how saving works
13:07:35 <nielsm> (and the forked screenshot process can just exit after saving the image)
13:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think that is implemented that way
13:09:11 <eirc> hmmm maybe it'd be better to actually do a save and then load that and grab a screenshot? saves seem to be faster than the giant screenshot
13:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> also, people regularly disable autosave on servers because they can't stand the interruption
13:09:45 <eirc> I guess a yearly save wouldn't be thaaaaat much of a hussle? :D
13:10:05 <eirc> still the issue is how would one automate this?
13:10:29 <eirc> i'm thinking the general options are console > newgrf > openttd code
13:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the game has some simple scripting ability builtin
13:11:09 <nielsm> newgrf can't do screenshots, I'm not sure what you think it would do
13:11:21 <nielsm> maybe you're thinking of a game script
13:11:31 <nielsm> (those can't do screenshots either)
13:11:58 <eirc> this "screenshot [big | giant | no_con]" would work on a script I'd guess
13:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the ingame console can do screenshots
13:12:15 <eirc> that cannot go in a script?
13:12:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can put the command into a script file
13:12:37 <eirc> but can the script file do a loop or run periodically in any way?
13:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a script directory with examples
13:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> if you go the separate savegame route, one of the "on_whatever" script should work
13:20:16 <eirc> oh that's cool i'll check that
13:24:13 <Wolf01> So, another bridge collapsed in Italy... after the 3 of the last year they didn't learn anything?
13:26:55 <eirc> so using scripts to do a periodic screenshot maybe I could monitor the game time from outside and when I consider the time is right I could connect and it'd run the on_client script where I'd put the screenshot giant command maybe?
13:27:21 <eirc> but if screenshot pauses game and connecting pauses it too it'd be very annoying...
13:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause> you could use regular OS tools to see when a new autosave was created
13:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> then fire up a new "server" that loads that savegame, makes the screenshot and quits again
13:29:21 <eirc> hmmmm that might just work? :)
13:29:41 <eirc> if a server can screenshot
13:29:58 <eirc> I'll test it later today
13:30:17 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, you might need to override the blitter
13:31:14 <eirc> that's sounds like a made up word but i'll have it in mind when I reach that point! :)
13:38:56 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a "dedicated" blitter that discards all graphics, so you cannot do screenshots with that. but if you manually set a different blitter, it will internally do all the graphics operations into a buffer. you can't display that buffer, but you can make screenshots from that
13:53:50 <eirc> ok I see that -b option thanks
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14:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: if i understand this right, there was extreme weather, probably combined with a history of neglected maintenance?
14:23:28 <Wolf01> Not so extreme weather, really problable the neglected/inefficient maintenance
14:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> we've had a few cases of "we must close this bridge because of safety concerns" in germany as well recently
14:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing has actually collapsed as far as i am aware
14:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i'm sure someone will manage to blame it on the immigrants
14:26:23 <Wolf01> Usually shit happens when brigdes have more than 50 years and not maintained correctly, or they are made of sand instead of cement
14:26:50 <Wolf01> No, they will blame the left wing party for sure
14:27:27 <Wolf01> Which is the only one which at least tried to fix these things
14:27:45 <Eddi|zuHause> oh yeah, definitely not bungabunga-guy's fault
14:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> what does he do nowadays anyway?
14:46:11 <eirc> Eddi|zuHause: you da man it's all too perfect
14:46:24 <eirc> ./openttd -D -b 32bpp-anim -g autosave.sav
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14:46:43 <eirc> screenshot giant testexit
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14:47:09 <eirc> and you can automatically get a screenshot from a savegame
14:47:36 <eirc> btw is there a way to tweak transparency settings ?
14:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be openttd.cfg entries for that
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14:55:23 <eirc> trees and signs are out nice
14:55:42 <eirc> now i just got to see how auto saving would affect multiplayer
14:59:35 <eirc> the rest after getting the screenshots out of the game I've already automated with imagemagic
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15:10:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate gifs for that stuff, because you cannot pause or go backwards
15:14:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: part of the problem in germany is that since 1990 a large part of the money has been spent on new infrastructure in the east, whereas investment in the west has been neglected, so now most of the "bad" bridges are in the west
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15:21:07 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 0 hours, 9 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <Pikka> but an additional input cargo here and there might be nice
15:22:21 <DanMacK> I love how I literally just missed him yesterday LOL
15:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the singularity, it actively wants to prevent itself
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16:30:08 <nielsm> well, now I got ottd building on my laptop, so I could look at stuff there while on vacation if I somehow run out of other things to do
16:31:39 <andythenorth> I am not taking my laptop on holiday never ever :)
16:33:41 <nielsm> I'm considering wiping windows from the laptop and installing some linux or freebsd on it for development, but that won't be on this side of the vacation :P
16:37:56 <frosch123> can newgrf communicate with the outside via network?
16:38:41 <andythenorth> can it also write to your filesystem?
16:38:50 <andythenorth> both are vital features imho
16:38:56 <frosch123> i just learned that newgrf can read any memory inside ottd
16:39:42 <peter1138> Where is this misinformation being propagated?
16:40:00 <andythenorth> oh the days when we used to chomd 777 scripts in the cgi-bin dir
16:41:30 <nielsm> I don't think it's supposed to be possible...
16:42:11 <andythenorth> frosch123: is this fact, or is someone trolling?
16:42:26 <andythenorth> is there an 80+ var to arbitrary pointers?
16:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> i just learned that newgrf can read any memory inside ottd <-- are we really sure there are no exploitable buffer overflows?
16:44:06 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it's readonly
16:44:46 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: doesn't mean it can't be used in some kind of escalation
16:46:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe some debug output? not sure what an error would do otherwise
16:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause> error would probably annoy people wanting to be backward compatible
16:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause> like if in the future some flags get added
16:47:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and people go "i want to check this flag, but it should still work in older versions that don't have the flag"
16:47:41 <andythenorth> I just tried exceeding 16
16:47:45 <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: "generated/firs.nml", line 13234: Maximum register for LOAD_PERM is 15
16:47:53 <andythenorth> but we'd have to patch for that
16:48:02 * andythenorth wondering if nml can guard it somehow
16:48:06 <andythenorth> grf version bump?
16:48:21 <andythenorth> and OpenTTD 2.0 also
16:48:27 <Eddi|zuHause> this has probably nothing to do with grf version
16:49:06 <frosch123> it's no api change if a new ottd can process both old and new newgrf
16:49:19 <frosch123> otherwise it is just an api addition
16:49:50 <andythenorth> so how have we historically handled "this doesn't work in old openttd"
16:50:12 <frosch123> you set the required version on bananas
16:51:13 <frosch123> testing ottd revision in nml code is hardly useful, since you do not know what actions nml creates
16:51:23 <frosch123> unless nml would generate it
16:51:36 <andythenorth> seems like TMWFTLB
16:52:11 <frosch123> also testing for anything more than stable release numbers is not really worth it imo
16:52:30 <andythenorth> interestingly FIRS does test
16:52:37 <andythenorth> if (ttd_platform != PLATFORM_OPENTTD || openttd_version < version_openttd(1, 7, 0, 27769)) { stuff }
16:52:38 <frosch123> so, test for ottd 1.9, if you really want to
16:53:13 <andythenorth> that might be quite redundant
16:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> well, since revision is broken after the github merge, we need a new method to check capabilities anyway
16:56:55 <frosch123> stable version is enough
16:57:15 <frosch123> nightly users can figure out when they need a new version
16:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> don't assume nightly users actually know what they're doing
16:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, we've got the whole patchpack thing to work out
16:58:30 <frosch123> if you care, add an a14 entry to list required features
16:59:05 <frosch123> but also patch nml to automatically fill that
16:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so duplicate something like patch flags?
16:59:15 <frosch123> no, it's the other way arond
16:59:25 <frosch123> grfs test patch flags, and show an error
16:59:33 <frosch123> ottd reads a14 and shows an error
17:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with that method is, you need to update this flag list for almost every spec change
17:00:27 <frosch123> anyway, noone will implement it
17:00:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see that working out in the long run
17:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the thing is, with the linear revision, people had the ability to check exactly for the moment when something was implemented
17:04:51 <Eddi|zuHause> we lost that with the move, and we have this semi-embracement of patchpacks, that will probably grow in the future, where each patch pack implements the feature at a different point in time
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17:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and when we get grf authors that go "i implemented this feature, but since i can't detect it, the grf will only work in $patchpack, but not master or release" then everything will fall apart
17:07:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking of things like "set property: bridge height over stations", which you could easily skip by an action7/9, to make it compatible with older versions. but only if you have the ability to detect it
17:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, so we do have a means to communicate between patchpack and newgrf. now we need to figure out what to communicate
17:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> in a way that is simple and easy to maintain for both the patchpack author and the grf author
17:17:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and we still don't have a replacement for the revision
17:22:01 <LordAro> "ooh, i just got highlighted in #openttd"
17:24:29 <frosch123> old xmlrpc dorpsgek took like 5 seconds
17:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm tempted to say most newgrf stuff should just silently (or with debug output) do nothing instead of error.
17:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that would eliminate most of the reasons for checking versions
17:25:43 <Eddi|zuHause> like, setting a nonexistent property
17:26:10 <frosch123> that assumes that all newgrf are correct
17:26:33 <frosch123> there have been plenty of newgrfs which broke when ottd added something
17:26:41 <frosch123> because they used something that was not defined before
17:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the javascript problem
17:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> if you silently ignore errors and try to Do The Right Thing(tm) you breed a generation of terrible coders
17:28:53 <andythenorth> can't we just define all newgrf as broken :x
17:29:39 <frosch123> i think there is a reserved grfid range for broken grf
17:29:48 <andythenorth> didn't I steal some of it?
17:29:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: we could definitely do that, but i'm fairly sure nobody is helped by that :p
17:30:17 <andythenorth> it's amusing that we all take newgrf so seriously
17:30:32 <andythenorth> when obviously all content is ragingly awful, from every perspective :)
17:30:45 <LordAro> especially that firs thing
17:30:53 <LordAro> i mean what even were they thinking
17:30:53 <andythenorth> you can't even imagine
17:31:01 <andythenorth> you don't know how bad it is inside
17:31:13 <andythenorth> it's literally made of string
17:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> every piece of code ever is horrible from the inside :p
17:32:03 <Eddi|zuHause> like you think windows is bad from the outside, you couldn't live with yourself if you looked at it from the inside :p
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17:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and now imagine all the code that has been added since then
17:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: oh man that is over 20 years old, but is it still funny? :p
17:40:42 <frosch123> later versions patched the make_prog_look_big
17:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> did they also change "make_50_megabyte_swapfile();"?
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18:23:28 <Thedarkb1-T60> I was thinking of selling preconfigured OpenTTD servers.
18:23:36 <Thedarkb1-T60> Think there'd be a market?
18:27:09 <peter1138> There are already more servers than players.
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18:31:09 <frosch123> i think at least 3 people tried that before
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18:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so far every attempt i have seen at turning openttd into some paid job have failed
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19:37:59 <andythenorth> all the views are wrong apart from <–
19:47:36 <DanMacK> I will play with it LOL
19:57:19 <Wolf01> I never found an use for small powerless engines :(
19:58:09 <andythenorth> shunting apparently :)
19:58:19 <andythenorth> also we haven't un-nerfed narrow guage yet
19:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i've used the gmund mog in a game
20:00:07 <Eddi|zuHause> (the rail version)
20:02:37 <andythenorth> how is NG being un-nerfed then?
20:02:52 <andythenorth> reduced town penalty for building it?
20:02:57 <andythenorth> faster loading speed?
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20:05:49 <frosch123> andythenorth: nerf non-ng
20:05:56 <frosch123> higher curve speed penalty
20:06:31 <andythenorth> or just un-nerf NG curves
20:06:40 <andythenorth> I've used tilt-bonus on some high speed trains
20:06:51 <andythenorth> because they weren't OP enough already :P
20:06:58 <frosch123> 90° is ugly, you cannot make curves much narrower
20:07:27 <andythenorth> I can't think of any way to re-balance the capacity-per-tile
20:07:43 <andythenorth> basically, no way to have 2 tracks per tile, or 2 station tracks per tile
20:07:59 <andythenorth> I wondered about messing with signal headways or something, but there's not much scope there
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20:09:24 <andythenorth> the town rating respond to clearing a tile, rather than building on it?
20:12:20 <frosch123> they respond to killing trees
20:12:32 <frosch123> clearing plain tiles or fields is fine
20:12:38 <frosch123> fields are expensive though
20:13:04 <andythenorth> ok no potential there for NG
20:13:13 <andythenorth> so basically, it's low cost and looks cute
20:13:14 <frosch123> NG could have a mountain bonus?
20:13:24 <andythenorth> oh, nerf the TE?
20:13:45 <frosch123> you have sharp curves in serpentines
20:13:57 <andythenorth> railtype could apply a gradient co-efficient :P
20:13:59 <frosch123> you could just pretend that a long straight slope are actually serpentines
20:14:25 <andythenorth> would that be actually implemented, or just buff TE ridiculously? o_O
20:14:59 <frosch123> i am not sure whether buffing TE and buffing friction coeffieicent are the same thing
20:15:05 <frosch123> would need to check the formulas
20:15:26 <andythenorth> "if only we had state machines"
20:15:35 <andythenorth> we could actually have a winding track within the tile :P
20:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if this can be represented in the game, but narrow gauge should have a space advantage
20:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> like narrow curves and lower bridges and cheaper embankment costs
20:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> or even parallel tracks
20:18:39 <frosch123> looks like you can buff TE up to factor 1
20:20:26 <andythenorth> parallel tracks? o_O
20:21:18 <Eddi|zuHause> well, really parallel tracks should be possible with normal rail as well, the space requirement for track width is ridiculous
20:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but the game grid is horrible for that
20:21:55 <andythenorth> 2 track station tiles would be interesting
20:21:56 <DanMacK> The advantage for Narrow Gauge should be low cost traded for capacity
20:21:57 <andythenorth> state machine stuff
20:22:10 <andythenorth> DanMacK: that's just too much common sense :)
20:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i was working on an idea for double tracks in / \ direction once
20:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> but fiddling the track bits in for switches and transition pieces would have been a nightmare
20:25:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i was also having an idea about shunting yards (as depot tiles, with restricting depot consist arrangement to the length of the depot) which would have had 3 parallel tracks
20:37:17 <andythenorth> nielsm: so it's all done, except the nml patch? o_O
20:51:16 <nielsm> andythenorth well, if it works? :)
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20:51:35 <nielsm> maybe as you pointed out, the newgrf debugging tools need to be extended a bit, not sure
20:51:41 <andythenorth> I haven't changed nml for new prop 28 format
20:51:59 <andythenorth> not sure I'll get that done before holidays
20:52:35 <andythenorth> I think we've debugged the newgrf now, it's probably fine to not have new tools :)
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22:05:49 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc pushed 1 commits to master:
22:05:49 <DorpsGek_II> - Fix #6875: Depot building cost does not include foundation build cost (#6883) (by JGRennison)
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22:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, i think there's an error there, it says "JGR merged ..." but then "michicc pushed..." that can't be both correct
22:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and who or what is Assert1?
22:19:26 <glx> looks like the wrong data is used
22:21:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so both JGR and Assert1 are instances of the bot using the "opened" name instead of the "closed"
22:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, just wanted to clarify that both are the same error
22:27:15 <glx> not sure it's the right repo
22:27:37 <LordAro> i was just looking at the source
22:28:32 <glx> but 3 repos share almost the same code
22:28:44 <LordAro> i'm not entirely sure they should be separate
22:29:15 <glx> anyway it's the irc bot, so I reported there
22:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i would have assumed -irc is DorpsGek and -github is DorpsGek_II or something
22:32:01 <glx> -github is the github bot
22:32:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i actually understood all the behind-the-scenes stuff involved there
22:32:55 <Eddi|zuHause> or really any of it :p
22:33:11 <glx> but maybe it's a bug in -github passing wrong data to -irc
22:33:51 <LordAro> i'm not entirely sure... the api usage doesn't appear to match github's documentation
22:34:39 <LordAro> this looks closer to what i expected
23:11:11 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
23:15:00 <LordAro> ooh, i can close that one
23:48:15 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
