IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-07-09
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00:00:29 <andythenorth> natural gas (methane)....silly for a newgrf cargo?
00:00:42 <TrueBrain> depends ... can you light it on fire?
00:01:09 <andythenorth> unless we patch that
00:01:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: When someone inevitably does NRT-pipelines, sure
00:02:16 <TrueBrain> pipelines? really? The new transport method? :D
00:03:35 <andythenorth> pipelines... was said to not be TTD enough
00:03:41 <andythenorth> then Factorio made a whole game of it
00:04:05 <TrueBrain> I hope OpenTTD doesn't try to compete with Factorio :D
00:04:21 <andythenorth> well we need to keep V employed
00:04:29 <andythenorth> so we shouldn't :P
00:07:55 <TrueBrain> time for some well deserved sleep I guess! Night all!
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10:25:21 <TrueBrain> omg, social people, wtf is this?! :D
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10:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> typing 7 instead of / is such a german mistake
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11:11:25 <TrueBrain> meh; the moment you cannot make a Docker out of your GitHubApp because it wants a C compiler to compile a dependency #nothankyou
11:12:02 <TrueBrain> so now the question is, why doesnt it use the whl that is available ...
11:14:36 <peter1138> Surely Germans don't make mistakes.
11:14:43 <peter1138> And yes, o7 is deliberate.
11:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes, i'm assuming you don't have a keyboard where 7 and / are on the same key and thus easily swapped :p
11:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm just mentioning it because my brain wanted to swap the two :p
11:25:05 <TrueBrain> and you think he is the weird one ..... ;) :P
11:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> when did i ever think that? :p
11:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> eh, why was __ln__ banned? :-O <-- what it looked like from here, __ln__ has this weird and cryptic way to express himself that gets on your nerves when you're not in the right mood/state of mind, so i guess this was the straw that broke the camel's back
11:34:09 <peter1138> When that last happened, he left by himself :p
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11:52:02 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I want to run 'docker build' on test, to validate the dockerfile is still valid
11:52:14 <TrueBrain> but ... that leaves a dangling image :D
11:52:16 <TrueBrain> which is not optimal
12:04:39 <TrueBrain> okay .. Travis also allows this
12:04:46 <TrueBrain> bit dirty in my opinion, but what can you do
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12:22:24 <TrueBrain> okay, I guess I should move this into OpenTTD space before I accidentially push stuff to master ..
12:25:29 <TrueBrain> LordAro: if you happen to have some idle cycles, I could sure use another look at my PR :)
12:25:48 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'll see what i can do
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13:51:42 <TrueBrain> okay ... so now I have a Docker that is a GitHub App .. now how am I going to run it .. mm
14:02:46 <peter1138> Oh, I saw "cycles" and thought someone was discussing bikes ;(
14:22:42 <LordAro> how many wheels does it have?
14:26:16 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I run flake8 over the code :P
14:40:47 <LordAro> TrueBrain: maybe there's an additional flake8 setting to...*
14:41:32 <TrueBrain> I have no clue what you consider 'inconsistent', so I cannot help with that :)
14:42:11 <TrueBrain> tnx a bunch for the comments; especially the 'diff' was nice to know :D
14:45:56 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i mean varying usages of '' vs ""
14:46:11 <TrueBrain> I should have " everywhere ..
14:46:52 <TrueBrain> sadly, in the Python world, that is not a coding style issue .. which I still hate
14:46:57 <TrueBrain> WELL, I WILL FIX THOSE THAN!
14:47:35 <planetmaker> what PR do you talk about? Hi also :)
14:47:55 <TrueBrain> owh, whole setup.py got generated with '
14:49:04 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: OpenTTD-DorpsGek under my user
14:50:22 <TrueBrain> LordAro: problem is, there can be very good reasons to use one for the other, etc
14:50:25 <TrueBrain> validating it .. is .. nasty
14:51:27 <TrueBrain> than they do take those cases into account too
14:51:41 <TrueBrain> guess I can just install it, and see how long it takes before it annoys the fuck out of me
14:58:26 <TrueBrain> I really do miss you can not see the diff on GitHub .. I would love to see that .. well, force pushing is evil I guess
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15:05:59 <TrueBrain> okay, so now to crack this egg on deployments ...
15:06:16 <TrueBrain> I have to start this docker somewhere .. that is the easy part
15:06:25 <TrueBrain> redirect nginx so it knows where to find it .. bit more difficult ..
15:06:39 <TrueBrain> but mostly I want that when I push a new version to master, staging is automatically updated
15:06:54 <TrueBrain> so I need somewhere to build the image
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15:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i find myself frequently starting strings with ' and ending with " or the other way around
15:12:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and what's worse, i use this other language where "" vs. '' means char-string vs wchar-string
15:13:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and i never remember which is which
15:15:34 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: PEP-8 does say "Pick a rule and stick to it.", so it's a coding-style issue if they're completely arbitrary
15:20:30 <TrueBrain> coding style requires consensus .. getting a consensus on ' vs " is .. ugly :P
15:20:42 <TrueBrain> most projects I know just leave it to who-ever-is-writing-it :)
15:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no difference small enough that it couldn't spark a religious war
15:21:25 <FLHerne> FWIW, my preferred rule is to use "" for actual string values that get printed/written or compared to things that are, and '' for stringly-typed things like fake enums, regexes, format codes
15:21:47 <TrueBrain> that sounds rather arbitrair :D
15:21:50 <andythenorth> my preference is to overlook it
15:22:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i honestly never cared
15:22:18 <andythenorth> I use '' because it doesn't require shift key
15:22:26 <andythenorth> unless it contains ' then I use ""
15:22:38 <andythenorth> it's a fairly stupid rule tho
15:22:39 <TrueBrain> I always have a good laugh with myself ... as I constantly mix them .. I seem to completely fail in picking one or the other :D
15:22:49 <andythenorth> it's because you know it doesn't affect real quality
15:22:51 <TrueBrain> which annoys the OCDer in me :D
15:22:59 <andythenorth> many small things do affect real quality
15:23:02 <andythenorth> this one isn't one of them
15:24:03 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I also now really tested it .. :P (it didnt work before ! I failed to test my own work .. how horrible!)
15:24:06 <Eddi|zuHause> both ' and " use shift for me, but one is right-handed and the other left-handed
15:25:03 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: So you use either one depending on the last key you pressed? ;-)
15:25:03 <Eddi|zuHause> swapping dominant hand mid-typing might be the reason why i always confuse them :p
15:25:53 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: yeah, maybe. i never consciently followed it
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16:06:47 <LordAro> i personally like to use "" for strings and '' for chars, but that's the C coming out :)
16:07:48 <LordAro> but i will of course conform to whatever style is already in place
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16:13:40 <LordAro> an interesting bug report
16:13:51 <LordAro> i suspect the answer is "you're still playing 1.8.0, nothing has changed"
16:17:41 <nielsm> I suspect it might have to do with swapping in some way
16:35:56 <Alberth> 4GB sounds like practically nothing for todays windows, doesn't it?
16:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "Baidu Antivirus" sounds like an even worse attempt at getting government spyware backdoors on computers as "Kaspersky" </conspiracy>
16:42:15 <nielsm> having AV installed at all might be as much a problem as anything else
16:45:45 <nielsm> slightly tempted to backport the fps-meter to 1.8 to make a "diagnostic build"
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16:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure that does tell you much if the system is swap-locked
16:52:48 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting values there would be size of the uncompressed savegame (x2 for saving), and sprite cache usage
16:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause> my first thought would go to 32bpp newgrfs
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17:05:19 <Alberth> I am guessing another application is running
17:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ah steam... "Cost of individual products: 40€" "Cost of bundle: 120€"
17:10:59 <nielsm> but anyway no, not seeing any issues when I load that savegame
17:11:33 <nielsm> (in a 32 bit debug build on fps-meter branch)
17:12:33 <nielsm> but then, my system is rather different, more modern CPU, 24 GB ram, 64 bit win10
17:15:02 <nielsm> can run at 10x speed when I move the view somewhere uninteresting
17:16:08 <nielsm> but yeah it uses around 80-140 MB private memory
17:16:34 <nielsm> and when not in ffwd mode counts as 0% cpu
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17:18:44 <nielsm> oh neat! his train network deadlocks :D
17:20:30 <nielsm> some time before 1982 if you just let it run
17:27:39 <nielsm> mostly because of an all too tight station construction, merging before branching
17:28:04 <nielsm> and too many signals (and pre-signals instead of path signals)
17:35:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had MiniIN games that severely slowed down whenever a deadlock occured, with the old PBS
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17:37:57 <Alberth> people seem to just love signs, the more the better :)
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19:10:41 <Arveen2> damn, Factorio is in Steams best selling games list for 2018
19:11:26 <SpComb> not bad for a game released on steam in 2016
19:12:08 <SpComb> > As of July 2017, the team consists of 15 members
19:17:17 <frosch123> hmm, i am used to popular media reporting stuff that was written in technical media months ago. but when the subtitle says "manufacturer fixes swiftly" it gets even more weird
19:18:39 <SpComb> > Improved Factorio link time in Visual studio. This was done by Rseding91, who provided the visual studio guys with Factorio sources and kept bothering them until they tested that and improved C++ link time in the 15.5 Visual studio release. The final release of Factorio with all optimisations and link time code generation took 45 minutes to compile and link, and now it takes 3.5 minutes. This sped up our release time quite a bit.
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19:19:47 <frosch123> in this case spcomb acts as the popular media
19:23:09 <TrueBrain> as long as it isn't fake news :P
19:23:42 <Wolf01> OpenTTD 2.0 release date will be...
19:24:26 <TrueBrain> let me rebrand 1.8 to 3.0
19:25:39 <Wolf01> What if we switch major and minor versions?
19:25:54 <andythenorth> what if we just release 7899213214
19:26:11 <TrueBrain> and the next one will be 7988123213
19:26:13 <andythenorth> 2.0 is when we can break all newgrf, eright?
19:26:20 <andythenorth> Wolf01: imagine if we did
19:27:31 <Wolf01> BTW, I need to sort 2kg of lego technic I purchased this weekend
19:28:16 <glx> just use openttd 10 like others ;)
19:28:56 <andythenorth> Wolf01: mostly I try to sell Lego now :P
19:29:08 <nielsm> allow GS to implement anything newgrf can (and more)
19:29:23 <nielsm> then allow GS to download sprites to the client
19:29:23 <andythenorth> can we also all smoke crack? :)
19:29:30 <nielsm> and bam you have a cloud-driven OTTD!
19:31:13 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: first you must reimplement GS in a modern language
19:31:34 <TrueBrain> Squirrel is very modern
19:31:38 <nielsm> let's just import node
19:31:42 <TrueBrain> (compared to Fortran, for example)
19:32:00 <TrueBrain> NodeJS! THIS SOLVES EVERYTHING
19:32:51 <frosch123> you can identify modern languages, when they can compute "[] + {}"
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19:57:05 <frosch123> i saw that one before. but i can only imagine it being linked from here :)
20:06:12 <nielsm> really just make it a lisp, very simple, anyone can learn the syntax in a few minutes
20:14:16 <frosch123> ottd can draw in different video modes
20:14:28 <frosch123> if ottd draws in 8bpp, the os does the conversion to 32bpp
20:14:35 <frosch123> it ottd draws in 32bpp, it does it itself
20:15:30 <nielsm> where is the opengl renderer with pixelshaders for pallette conversion and animation?
20:15:47 <frosch123> i think there are at least two
20:15:58 <FLHerne> nielsm: Very short CDist recalc_interval can't help
20:16:39 <FLHerne> I wouldn't think it would hurt /that/ much though
20:19:19 <FLHerne> `scenario_developer = true` is suspicious, has the affected savegame had its grfs hacked about?
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20:57:35 <michi_cc> Testing and ports for Linux/OSX welcome :)
20:59:08 <andythenorth> oh I see, ports needed :)
21:00:11 <michi_cc> And tests that indicates it works for anything else than my own machine.
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21:00:18 <peter1138> michi_cc, have you considered using glfw as the base driver layer, instead of porting for each platform?
21:02:57 <nielsm> okay now make a format that allows a "blitter" to just construct an operations list which is then fed to the video driver which turns it into actual draw calls!!
21:03:34 <michi_cc> The porting that needs to be done is the window/context creation, not sure using anything else improves stuff without writing new video drivers for each platform.
21:04:31 <peter1138> That's the point. glfw handles window/context, along with input handling, on the common platforms.
21:04:32 <michi_cc> And using OpenGL only isn't really an option on Windows as some Intel graphics drivers are be default installed without OpenGL.
21:05:06 <peter1138> SDL is really shitty for stuff like window resizing.
21:05:55 <LordAro> not that i've noticed if SDL2 is any better
21:06:38 <nielsm> doesn't SDL2 also have a way to create a working GL context built in`
21:06:48 <LordAro> but that's not new afaik
21:09:20 <peter1138> You're still stuck with the shitty resizing.
21:09:46 <michi_cc> Is getting OpenGL on Linux that complicated? The extra Windows code for a context are like 7 "real" lines (more in the branch because of pretty formatting).
21:10:02 <peter1138> No, it's just SDL is crap :)
21:11:06 <peter1138> But okay, out of scope
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21:48:12 <peter1138> Anyway, last time I tested it, there was a crash somewhere, but I don't remember what I was doing at the time :S
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22:42:49 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: I see you are enjoying yourself :D OpenGL \o/
22:48:17 <michi_cc> Somebody has to have a patch for that™ :)
22:49:38 <TrueBrain> okay, I really like the GitLab CI language .. guess I will make my own implementation based on the definition of that language :D
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23:08:19 <LordAro> TrueBrain: ...yaml? :p
23:08:46 <TrueBrain> that it would be yaml, was already set and known
23:41:30 <TrueBrain> bit annoying, as currently it looks I am building my own CI :P
23:41:41 <TrueBrain> but okay .. because of dockers, it appears to be very trivial
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