IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-07-02
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20:18:12 *** DorpsGek has joined #openttd
20:18:12 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DorpsGek
20:18:15 <LordAro> i feel everyone is getting in a loop of pointing at everyone else
20:18:18 <TrueBrain> welcome back DorpsGek
20:18:24 <LordAro> certainly no one's ever said *who* is supposed to look at it
20:18:25 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I always pointed to a single mailbox
20:18:32 <TrueBrain> I dont see how there ever could be any confusion about that
20:18:47 <LordAro> yeah, but who reads (and then acts on) that?
20:19:13 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I wonder how it is important :)
20:19:24 <LordAro> well if no one reads/acts on it...
20:19:26 <andythenorth> how else to get a translation account?
20:19:33 <TrueBrain> it in general helps to not know who, as otherwise people tend to send those people directly, and if the torch is passed on, things go wrong :)
20:19:35 <__ln__> TrueBrain: I see. But as you remember, I did try finding out who is charge of translations, and only contacted you after 10 days of silence. And I contacted you because the Contact page lists you as "WT3 Developer", not to frustrate you.
20:19:50 <TrueBrain> LordAro: so as long as that email account is mailed, things should be handled :) If not, info@ is the address :)
20:20:22 <TrueBrain> __ln__: I am? Damn, let me fix that immediatly ..
20:20:31 <LordAro> "should be" is not "are"
20:20:43 <TrueBrain> LordAro: but naming a person doesn't help the situation :)
20:20:54 <TrueBrain> at best that person gets emailed .. and he says: no, I passed it on to *insert next person*
20:21:25 <TrueBrain> but in general 2 people are "in charge" of both info@ and translator@
20:21:36 <TrueBrain> and they "should" be passing the torch if they no longer do
20:21:49 <TrueBrain> if not, there will be some internal spanking :)
20:22:22 <TrueBrain> __ln__: either way, openttd.org hasnt been running WT3 for months now
20:22:35 <TrueBrain> and just because you develop something, doesnt mean you grant people access etc ;)
20:22:43 <TrueBrain> you don't call Microsoft to get your AD account unlocked :D
20:22:52 <TrueBrain> (although hilarous)
20:23:35 <TrueBrain> haha, I want recordings of that :D
20:23:48 <TrueBrain> reminds me of that guy that called NSA because he deleted an email by accident, and asked for their backup :P
20:24:33 <TrueBrain> okay, next cache-invalidation I am no longer WT3 developer \o/ :D
20:24:53 <Karn> andythenorth: then there needs to be reversed direction in UpdateDeltaXY() according to reverse flag and seems there is bug in GUI(S) with misalignment. It looks alright on the map
20:25:21 <andythenorth> the bug is in depot?
20:25:33 <__ln__> TrueBrain: Still, WT3 was the closest real human name match to translations on the contact page.
20:25:35 <TrueBrain> either way, don't forget this project runs on volunteers, and people take holidays etc .. its summer :)
20:25:45 <andythenorth> the depot gui could probably be fixed, I don't know
20:25:50 <TrueBrain> people are so obsessed by "real person" .. maybe the AI just broke ..
20:25:52 <andythenorth> I fix the issue in newgrf
20:25:58 <TrueBrain> LordAro: how is the mediawiki docker going?
20:27:29 <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh yeah, that was a thing that i was doing
20:27:47 <LordAro> i've not been on linux for a while
20:28:06 <TrueBrain> Windows subsystem works fine .. if you have a docker slave :P
20:28:12 <__ln__> TrueBrain: I would be fine communicating with an AI if it actually replied something to me.
20:29:19 <planetmaker_> __ln__, let me see what I can do for you... it's a long time... gotta find login :D
20:29:54 <TrueBrain> next planetmaker_ finds 1000 requests pending :P
20:30:27 <andythenorth> all the translation commits we could have had
20:30:34 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
20:30:50 <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, oh, for sure :)
20:31:09 <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: you might want to check if you are not the only one doing that work .. ;)
20:31:48 <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, basically I do know the answer to "who is doing that work": me. And frosch. Both of us very occasionally, I recon
20:32:01 <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: recruit others! :P
20:32:28 <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: I can see who logs in to the mailbox etc :P But I am not throwing anyone under any bus :) We are all busy enough :)
20:33:46 <TrueBrain> right .. lets find out if gitlab ci/cd is any good ..
20:33:49 <planetmaker_> log into the mailbox... my mailprogramme knows the credentials. Doesn't mean I always read it :D
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20:35:15 <andythenorth> when is the bus coming btw?
20:35:20 <andythenorth> in case we need to throw anyone under it
20:35:31 <TrueBrain> :D You might be surprised what the bus-factor is btw for OpenTTD :)
20:35:35 <andythenorth> also are bus problems similar to trolley problems?
20:35:40 <TrueBrain> even a nuke on the Netherlands doesnt do it :P
20:35:48 <andythenorth> can we test that?
20:36:00 <TrueBrain> I just got my grass green
20:36:06 <planetmaker_> __ln__, have fun. It's the "ln" login
20:36:30 <planetmaker_> I can skip writing an e-mail now, I assume? :D
20:36:44 <TrueBrain> I like gitlab ci/cd .. it already has a language to write things in that is not as disasterous as Jenkinsfiles ..
20:36:52 <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: papertrail? :)
20:37:04 <LordAro> TrueBrain: what are you trying out?
20:37:22 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I want a CD for OpenTTD, and I was wondering how
20:37:44 <TrueBrain> (both for OpenTTD itself, but also for stuff like the CI dockers, release dockers, and also possibly for website, mediawiki, etc)
20:38:03 <LordAro> so are we moving from github to gitlab? :p
20:38:25 <TrueBrain> I don't see any reason for that
20:38:31 <TrueBrain> but their CI/CD seems to do what I expect
20:38:36 <__ln__> planetmaker_: thank you very much. yes, i don't require an email reply anymore as TrueBrain has confirmed the openttd.org email reception at least works :D
20:38:52 <planetmaker_> bah, papertrail :D
20:39:11 <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, how do I convert a hg repo to git?
20:39:18 <TrueBrain> hg2git? I have no clue :)
20:39:39 <TrueBrain> I am not your altar :D
20:39:47 <TrueBrain> (and I really dont know)
20:39:48 <LordAro> TrueBrain: well, gitlab CI usually goes with gitlab :)
20:39:50 <planetmaker_> but my dictionary and google-foo :P
20:40:17 <andythenorth> probably just imported it to github
20:40:18 <TrueBrain> LordAro: not much I can fix about that currently :)
20:40:55 <planetmaker_> I just wonder about such wonderful details as preserving identities etc. And: I want to know how it works, and not have a ready-made result :P
20:41:26 <TrueBrain> others have solved this for you for sure :)
20:41:46 <planetmaker_> And I was hoping s/o could guide me to it and past the pitfalls ;)
20:42:14 <TrueBrain> it seems, which comes as a total shock to everyone in this channel, that andythenorth is your friend :D
20:42:44 <TrueBrain> the day that andythenorth become the hg/git expert :D
20:43:09 <TrueBrain> Using GitLab CI/CD pipelines with GitHub repositories
20:43:11 <TrueBrain> that sounds promising
20:43:47 <TrueBrain> they just sync the git into gitlab :D
20:44:11 <planetmaker_> fair enough, I guess
20:45:00 <andythenorth> I just imported it :P
20:45:07 <andythenorth> users I didn't worry about
20:45:53 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> I did it <- with full history?
20:47:43 <planetmaker_> andythenorth, so, how do I go and convert a/the repo?
20:48:07 <planetmaker_> There's more than just NML :P
20:48:26 <planetmaker_> something with git fast-import or so, I guess
20:48:45 <andythenorth> but some ought to be transferred to openttd account imho
20:49:18 <andythenorth> if we can leave issues on devzone for now
20:49:32 <andythenorth> we can either automate importing them, or manually copy to GH, or leave them in redmine
20:49:36 <planetmaker_> ok, easy enough so that I can create a git clone and play around with it and building stuff
20:50:02 <planetmaker_> And I'd switch the official one to github when things work there
20:50:39 <planetmaker_> hm, I don't have permission to import a repo to OpenTTD :|
20:50:44 <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, ^^ :D
20:50:47 <TrueBrain> no, of course you don't
20:50:55 <TrueBrain> we are not randomly going to important stuff in the OpenTTD organization :)
20:51:07 <TrueBrain> normally we first talk about that :P
20:51:09 <andythenorth> we can transfer a repo to the org later?
20:51:20 <TrueBrain> especially if you are testing stuff
20:51:22 <planetmaker_> haha, sure :) I was not going to import anything there now
20:51:24 <TrueBrain> just do it via your own account :)
20:51:26 <planetmaker_> But I couldn't ;)
20:51:47 <TrueBrain> Security always start with restrictions :)
20:52:01 <TrueBrain> the anyone-can-do-anything failed with wikis :P
20:53:45 <andythenorth> I had a dream of an open friendly internet :P
20:54:01 <andythenorth> I remember unauthed community boards
20:57:29 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
20:58:17 <TrueBrain> *slaps the duck till it stops moving*
20:59:07 <TrueBrain> okay, gitlab ci/cd looks promising; has everything I would like .. now the question ofc is, does it integrate ..
21:00:52 <frosch123> planetmaker_: i have no idea about translations@
21:02:02 <planetmaker_> hm, so *only* I have an idea about translations?
21:04:19 <TrueBrain> lol .. gitlab docker image just runs chef on itself :D
21:06:10 <__ln__> question: if horizontal mouse wheel scrolling did some in the game, what should it do? currently it doesn't seem to do anything.
21:06:20 <andythenorth> bus factor alarm
21:07:30 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: not really; at least 2 other people know how to do it :)
21:07:40 <TrueBrain> bus factor is more that nobody COULD do it
21:10:44 <TrueBrain> bah, the self-hosted gitlab cannot use github :(
21:13:41 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
21:14:56 <TrueBrain> does require relicensing every year in a manual process
21:19:21 <frosch123> we just need a coop version of a "dorpsgek" user
21:19:54 <frosch123> dorpsgek wants to join coop? :)
21:20:47 <frosch123> planetmaker_: is there anything like a info@o.o which is used to register these things?
21:21:07 <frosch123> my zoo of email boxes has no @o.o :)
21:21:12 <TrueBrain> (no clue what you are after exactly, as that pastebin is vague, but just so you know, DorpsGek as bot can be shared :P)
21:22:10 <frosch123> eliminate redmine and rhodecode from coop
21:22:22 <frosch123> the two components which cause the most trouble
21:22:29 <TrueBrain> so you are going to gitlab.org right? :P
21:22:45 <frosch123> i don't think there was any discussion or agreement
21:23:01 <TrueBrain> I am joking .. at least, I hope it is a joke :P
21:23:10 <TrueBrain> would suck to have parts on gitlab, other parts on github, or what-ever :D
21:23:11 <frosch123> but different people said similar things at different points in time
21:23:29 <TrueBrain> so I hope you move it all to github :)
21:23:32 <frosch123> ah, the lab/hub thing? i never look too close to notice
21:23:46 <frosch123> it's like simutrans and simuscape
21:24:01 <frosch123> took me years to distinguish
21:24:03 <TrueBrain> but yeah, if they move to GitHub, we can integrate it too with our fancy tools (at least .. if they get finished :P)
21:24:14 <TrueBrain> one more day of work, than I have all the time in the world :D
21:24:22 <TrueBrain> still have to make a priority list ..
21:24:31 <andythenorth> I am happy to move any of my projects to GH as guinea pig
21:24:56 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: easy: 1) get nightly builds back 2) NRT merge 3) profit, lie on green lawn
21:25:27 <andythenorth> 4) apply for my systems engineer job, work part time :P
21:26:25 <Wolf01> Mmmh I'm tempted to do that
21:26:26 <TrueBrain> sadly, the list is a bit longer ...
21:26:47 <andythenorth> my list is 'shoot tanks' :)
21:27:14 <Alberth> then sleep, and repeat :p
21:32:01 <TrueBrain> right .. googled a tool to help organize the work I want to do a bit ...
21:32:06 <TrueBrain> found a tool that claims to be UX friendl
21:32:12 <TrueBrain> totally gets lost in the tool
21:32:26 <andythenorth> most development is just googling
21:34:32 *** Donald_J_Trump has joined #openttd
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21:41:59 <__ln__> you don't think it was the real potus?
21:42:54 <Wolf01> Of course it was the real potus, how many Donald J Trump do you know?
21:44:38 <planetmaker_> frosch123, not exactly sure what you mean with the paste :)
21:44:51 <planetmaker_> yes, we probably should move all the repos piecewise to github
21:45:23 <planetmaker_> do we all want them under the openttdcoop account? Or should some be under OpenTTD account (like grfcodec, nml, maybe OpenGFX)?
21:45:42 <planetmaker_> IMHO it would be the right thing to have those three under OpenTTD rule
21:45:48 <TrueBrain> I would love if some go to the OpenTTD space
21:45:50 <frosch123> planetmaker_: we should only move those repos which we maintain
21:46:10 <TrueBrain> especially NML would be nice to have under the OpenTTD umbrella
21:46:11 <frosch123> people will be upset if we move random newgrf projects
21:46:24 <frosch123> planetmaker_: also, it should be a single coop organisation with multiple projects
21:46:25 <planetmaker_> oh, it's not "random newgrf projects"
21:46:26 <andythenorth> nml is my biggest priority
21:46:35 <andythenorth> as any change to newgrf is a change to nml
21:47:07 <planetmaker_> it's the three important things to have OpenTTD run when you have nothing: base graphics. And grfcodec to build the grfs. And NML as its compiler for add-ons
21:47:19 <frosch123> TrueBrain: awh, i thought we could silently drop grfcodec/renum and noone would notice
21:47:30 <planetmaker_> the rest I'd all keep under openttdcoop
21:47:37 <TrueBrain> that is why I mention NML; not the other two .. euh ... weirdos :P
21:47:40 <planetmaker_> I created the openttdcoop group already on github the other day
21:47:51 <andythenorth> there is a ticket with proof-of-concept grf -> nml
21:47:56 <andythenorth> I found it recently
21:47:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: still, opengfx, opensfx, openmsx, zbase, ... where to draw the line?
21:48:19 <TrueBrain> first 3 I think should also be of OpenTTD
21:48:22 <planetmaker_> the line is at the absolute essentials. Which is those three
21:48:28 <TrueBrain> they are officially published as such too
21:48:33 <planetmaker_> the rest is "nice, but private fun"
21:49:20 <planetmaker_> the line is also exactly where we draw it
21:49:51 <TrueBrain> frosch123: but, moving projects between organizations is easy
21:50:00 <planetmaker_> it is. That's nowhere any issue
21:50:02 <TrueBrain> so in the end, moving to GH is priority
21:50:21 <planetmaker_> yet it's something we should IMHO discuss or ponder about at this stage.
21:50:43 <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: as long as it is a short discussion; not one of weeks :)
21:50:49 <andythenorth> I would have moved already, except bundles provides the online docs
21:51:11 <andythenorth> I could maybe move them to GH pages or something
21:51:13 <TrueBrain> be agile! Actions! :D
21:51:19 <planetmaker_> bundles... doesn't github provide artifacts storage?
21:52:17 <Cthulhux> people still use github?
21:52:58 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I try to create an account at Trello, but ... I get some funky weird errors :(
21:53:34 <planetmaker_> frosch123, but back to the real questions: yes info@o.o is the address usually used to register stuff.
21:53:42 <andythenorth> GH supports some sort of release artefacts
21:53:52 <TrueBrain> Cannot send email; check if the list is correct .. lolz ...
21:54:27 <TrueBrain> what might help, I am working towards an auto-deploy thingy for OpenTTD, for stuff like AI API Docs, but also the main website, etc
21:54:38 <TrueBrain> where a website is populated from a git 'build' result
21:54:45 <TrueBrain> (so an artifact, but published)
21:55:25 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: would that require the website to be in vcs, or as the result of a compile?
21:55:33 <andythenorth> mine are the result of a compile :P
21:55:47 <TrueBrain> the source of the website should be in git
21:55:50 <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, OpenTTD Screenshot information explorer
21:55:53 <TrueBrain> the result should be from an artifact
21:55:58 <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: lol :D
21:56:06 <planetmaker_> it's mostly a debugging tool
21:56:24 <planetmaker_> giving you the list of used NewGRFs and OpenTTD version info from screenshots
21:56:29 <frosch123> TrueBrain: osie is in svn/extra
21:56:37 <frosch123> extracts information from ottd screenshots
21:56:46 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: works for me
21:57:02 <andythenorth> I also want to teach nml to produce docs by default from newgrfs
21:57:12 <planetmaker_> frosch123, yes, as far as I see, that works
21:57:14 <frosch123> hmm, i should put osie on the bananas2 feature list
21:57:57 <planetmaker_> frosch123, yet... you mentioned sth different... want to move away from grfcodec for base grfs / openttd.grf?
21:58:14 <andythenorth> could I just publish my newrgf docs directly on new bananas? o_O
21:58:24 <planetmaker_> then we can skip that... and what is "new bananas"? :D
21:58:30 <frosch123> planetmaker_: i would like to have grfcodec in a "does not require maintenance" state
21:58:34 <frosch123> essentially "ditch renum"
21:58:50 <frosch123> grfcodec should not be affected by nfo additions
21:59:05 <planetmaker_> ok... I fail to see how that could work :)
21:59:35 <andythenorth> grfcodec is quite agnostic about what you feed it
21:59:42 <andythenorth> so it needed no patching for NRT for example
21:59:55 <planetmaker_> hm... yes... but it then starts complaining :D
22:00:00 <andythenorth> whereas renum breaks if you blink at the wrong time
22:00:33 <frosch123> planetmaker_: openttd build only requires renum to compute the number of sprites in sprite 0
22:00:37 <andythenorth> much nice talk, but which newgrf shall I move to github? o_O
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22:00:45 <andythenorth> FIRS needs rekt anyway
22:00:49 <frosch123> everything else is just renum checking ottd to meet it's own spec
22:01:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: disable eints, move what you like
22:01:22 <frosch123> people can live without nightlies for month, they can also live without translation updates for months
22:01:33 <andythenorth> also it's not a lot of change currently
22:01:35 <frosch123> there are plenty of tools to migrate redmine issues to github btw
22:02:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: buildserver can likely easily pull from github
22:02:16 <planetmaker_> I'm a bit scared about the build service migration... but I guess that's something which can work, too - despite the quite custom toolchain
22:02:21 <frosch123> so bundles would stay as it is
22:02:32 <andythenorth> hmm 815 closed issues :P
22:02:35 <andythenorth> I am quite ruthless eh
22:03:16 <frosch123> ah, right, redmine shares issue numbers over all projects, so i guess noone wants to sync the issue numbers with gh
22:03:39 <planetmaker_> yeah... it does for some obscure reason
22:03:51 <frosch123> you can move issues between projects )
22:04:02 <planetmaker_> otoh it doesn't hurt to keep the numbers... they're just numbers after all
22:04:40 <frosch123> yes, but having 8k dummy tasks is kind of too silly
22:05:01 <frosch123> and for nml, i never looked up old issues like for ottd
22:05:15 <andythenorth> redmine shared issues is winning btw :)
22:05:23 <andythenorth> it's the main reason we switched to redmine at work
22:06:40 <planetmaker_> oh, I do lookup old issues... but I don't need the numbers tbh
22:07:17 <frosch123> well, i mean the references from the commit message
22:07:33 <frosch123> unless you want to migrate them on import :p
22:10:22 <LordAro> i like how tmwftlb is exclusively an ottd acronym
22:10:37 <LordAro> the first 3 non-definition results are ottd related :)
22:12:02 <frosch123> but es, i get the same results
22:12:20 <frosch123> either google knows me, or the other users had contact with us :p
22:12:54 <frosch123> duckduck also has a lot of ottd
22:13:21 <TrueBrain> still adding things to the list, as I keep forgetting stuff
22:14:56 <frosch123> let's call it "custom deployment" :p
22:15:16 <frosch123> maybe "continuous"?
22:16:56 <TrueBrain> anything I am missing?
22:17:22 <frosch123> import catcodec/musa/osie from svn/extra
22:17:42 <frosch123> probably msu as well
22:18:30 <TrueBrain> having those on CD would be awesome
22:19:05 <frosch123> msu is quite special, the other ones are pretty constant
22:19:25 <frosch123> i read "new wiki" has status "outsourced"?
22:19:46 <TrueBrain> I read "on hold" :P
22:21:10 <frosch123> TrueBrain: "some solution for uploading crash.dmp"
22:21:16 <TrueBrain> we have a solution for that
22:21:19 <TrueBrain> but having a better would be good :D
22:21:28 <LordAro> "add .txt extension" ?
22:21:48 <TrueBrain> no, we have some scripts that automate analyzing them
22:21:59 <TrueBrain> it copies them to a windows VM, runs some stuff on it, and reports back
22:22:06 <TrueBrain> but it is old and rusty
22:23:04 <TrueBrain> frosch123: possibly we also want a place people can upload their crash dumps btw
22:23:53 <TrueBrain> I dont really like Trello .. but okay, it works for this :P
22:24:07 <TrueBrain> anything else? taking requests?
22:24:11 <frosch123> V is a trello fanboy iirc
22:24:29 <frosch123> TrueBrain: does "pr workflow" include more weird bots?
22:25:02 <TrueBrain> the bot will be on GH
22:25:08 <TrueBrain> so depends on your definition of "magic"
22:25:12 <TrueBrain> but it does automate stuff
22:25:16 <TrueBrain> (as it is .. a bot :P)
22:25:20 <frosch123> we discussed several things like tagging stuff for automatic merge/rebase/whatever
22:25:35 <TrueBrain> in the first version what I would like it to do
22:25:36 <frosch123> all the stuff python did
22:25:42 <glx> indeed an auto get call stack from dmp would be nice
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22:25:52 <frosch123> the python project on github
22:25:57 <TrueBrain> ah, something similar
22:26:09 <TrueBrain> my current features: mention when the author needs to do an action
22:26:12 <TrueBrain> and when he pushes a new version
22:26:15 <frosch123> glx: mostly it stops at "assert" :)
22:26:17 <TrueBrain> mention that we have to do an action
22:26:27 <TrueBrain> that is it, basically
22:26:34 <TrueBrain> after that, we can extend :P
22:27:05 <TrueBrain> (or if you have a better idea, would love to hear it)
22:27:29 <frosch123> i have no idea about the details, but the summary sounds fine
22:28:03 <TrueBrain> so added stuff to TODO I will be working on first
22:28:16 <TrueBrain> if at any point you want to give others prio, just yell
22:28:25 <TrueBrain> if anyone wants to help, too, yell :)
22:29:19 <LordAro> the GDPR todo's seem... odd
22:30:01 <TrueBrain> just a random statemeny is very useless to me
22:30:25 <LordAro> i can't see how the anonymous@ stuff would work with github at all, beyond "use this email address if you don't want your name on the commit", but someone with a GH account still has to raise a PR
22:30:44 <TrueBrain> so there are 2 tickets
22:30:52 <TrueBrain> 2) add GDPR to workflow
22:31:28 <TrueBrain> if 1) is your consern, you can make a commit with any email address, and push that
22:31:31 <LordAro> enforcing reading CONTRIBUTING just sounds like an annoyance to everyone involved, i've never liked contributing projects that enforce that you sign a ULA or something
22:31:39 <LordAro> those are 1, followed by 2
22:31:50 <TrueBrain> you might not like it, but we have to do our best to make people aware what we do with their data
22:31:57 <TrueBrain> GDPR or not, that is our job as developers
22:31:59 <TrueBrain> to make people aware
22:32:03 <TrueBrain> hiding it, is not an option
22:32:08 <TrueBrain> and given we will never ever delete their commit
22:32:16 <TrueBrain> it is okay to take some more effort to make them aware of such
22:33:16 <LordAro> 1) they can't "push that" though - where are they pushing it? to make a PR it needs to be on a GH fork, and then they need to attach their "name" to a PR
22:33:19 <TrueBrain> but to keep it somewhat UX friendly, I want that you can say once: I read it, and that you never have to see it again :)
22:33:38 <TrueBrain> LordAro: you can still put in the commit different information
22:33:47 <TrueBrain> it is just about the commit itself
22:33:54 <LordAro> yeah, but GH will always link the commits to the PR
22:33:55 <TrueBrain> that GH still has your information, is between you and GH
22:34:08 <TrueBrain> (they have their own "right to be forgotten")
22:34:16 <TrueBrain> but our git will remain forever
22:34:22 <LordAro> (we're having 2 conversations here, let's pick up 2) in a bit)
22:35:01 <TrueBrain> I honestly doubt anyone would make use of anonymous@, but having a way is just more polite
22:35:31 <LordAro> right, so it's basically just a couple of sentences in CONTRIBUTING or whereever explaining what people in that situation should do?
22:35:50 <TrueBrain> I dont want to hear the bullshit: you are tracking my data, so I wont make this PR
22:36:33 <planetmaker_> I honestly believe that the anonymous@... stuff is a lot of work for no use
22:36:36 <TrueBrain> as we are not tracking data; we don't care about your data as such
22:36:51 <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: that honestly is the wrong thinking that got us the GDPR :)
22:37:00 <TrueBrain> we might be surprised how many people want to use it or what ever
22:37:01 <planetmaker_> If s/o really would like to not be mentioned in the commit log... have it run through one of us
22:37:05 <TrueBrain> and the effort is near zero :)
22:37:27 <michi_cc> planetmaker_: I very likely believe that it will never be used, but GDPR forbids linking service delivery with consent, so there...
22:38:07 <planetmaker_> it's in everyone's own capability to use whatever credits one pleases in the commits
22:38:12 <TrueBrain> and I think it is a fair alternative too, saying: you can email *address here* your patch if you want to be kept anonymous
22:38:21 <planetmaker_> we don't require stamped identities verified by NSA etc
22:38:22 <TrueBrain> but, this was less effort
22:38:53 <planetmaker_> just my 2ct. If you think it's worth your time, I'm the last one to stop you
22:39:14 <TrueBrain> I think we, as developers of any software, should consider more how to be polite to users
22:39:18 <TrueBrain> make sure they understand how we use their data
22:39:29 <TrueBrain> having a statement: you can use this address to stay anonymous in history
22:39:31 <TrueBrain> is a strong statement
22:39:38 <TrueBrain> which shows intention
22:39:43 <michi_cc> LordAro: Some kind of ULA is mainly not about GDPR or anything similar at all, but mostly about copyright.
22:40:01 <andythenorth> no copyright, no GPL :)
22:40:24 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: E_DIDNOTPARSE
22:40:27 <michi_cc> LordAro: The GDPR bit is a nice to have that you get "for free".
22:41:04 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: GPL is based on contributors having copyright to assign, otherwise it doesn't work :P
22:41:37 <andythenorth> so some OSS contrib. agreements are about author consenting to license as copyright holder
22:41:39 <LordAro> ULAs on github always annoy me, they're always just a blocker to contributing. I get why commercial companies on github often have to have one, for licensing reasons, but that just doesn't apply to an open-source GPL project IMO
22:41:41 <andythenorth> it's armchair law distraction
22:41:53 <LordAro> besides, GH itself pops up a notification whenever CONTRIBUTING has changed
22:42:07 <LordAro> (when opening a PR/issue)
22:42:12 <andythenorth> LordAro: it's a fallback on people 'reverting their permission' in GPL project or whatever
22:42:19 <andythenorth> project wrecking BS
22:42:19 <TrueBrain> LordAro: sadly, GH doesnt tell us if a user has been shows CONTRIBUTING, which is a bit annoying
22:42:36 <LordAro> how would we know otherwise?
22:42:49 <LordAro> it's still on the user's word regardless
22:42:56 <TrueBrain> yes; but that is a lot stronger
22:42:58 <LordAro> same as any terms and conditions wall of text ever
22:43:08 <TrueBrain> did you see our ToS?
22:43:13 <TrueBrain> (when you signup to BaNaNaS)
22:43:32 <TrueBrain> as make no mistake, we are not presenting some legal text to the user
22:43:34 <TrueBrain> as that is not the point
22:43:38 <TrueBrain> and in fact, GDPR is very clear about that
22:43:44 <LordAro> at least many years ago, and possibly not at all that i actually read
22:43:44 <TrueBrain> (really good thing btw)
22:43:51 <TrueBrain> our ToS is a simple list of facts, I believe 11
22:43:58 <TrueBrain> if you dont read that, I really dont care
22:44:09 <TrueBrain> we did our best to present what we will do with your data in the shorest possible way
22:44:18 <TrueBrain> if you opt in to not care about your privacy, sure, your choice
22:44:24 <TrueBrain> but we cannot (and should not) think like that
22:44:36 <TrueBrain> I dont want to be that OSS that sells all information for epic profit
22:44:41 <TrueBrain> I want to be clear about that
22:44:59 <TrueBrain> and is forcing it upon people annoying ... possibly ... better than that they missed it, because it was too hidden for them
22:45:13 <TrueBrain> and because we cannot talk to most people that make PRs .. we need another way
22:45:24 <LordAro> i signed up to bananas 9 years ago, i have no idea whether i read it or not :p
22:45:49 <TrueBrain> it didnt scare you away. If you did, you clearly agreed with it. If you didn't .. well .. I did my best
22:45:52 <TrueBrain> and I cannot do more :)
22:46:10 <TrueBrain> NOT doing anything from my part, is just bad attitude
22:46:17 <TrueBrain> "nobody is going to read it anyway, so lets skip it"
22:46:24 <TrueBrain> that is why we are in this marketing nightmare :P
22:47:21 <LordAro> i don't disagree with that at all, there's just no way to implement it into GH in a way that isn't annoying as hell for the user
22:47:30 <LordAro> i think that's my issue here
22:47:36 <TrueBrain> what are you smoking? :P
22:47:50 <TrueBrain> either you have this whole illusion of what it is going to be
22:48:00 <TrueBrain> or we have a strong disagreement what "annoying as hell" means :D
22:48:37 <LordAro> fine, those words are a bit strong
22:48:45 <LordAro> but still annoying :p
22:48:49 <TrueBrain> now I am curious what you think I was planning to do :)
22:50:42 <TrueBrain> (and don't get me wrong, there will always be some annoyance to those that don't care .. that is unfixable; if you don't care about what happens with your data, any information about informing you about it, is one too many information. But our target group is not that group ;) )
22:52:07 <TrueBrain> okay, that is give-or-take what I had in mind. How often do you think you will see that?
22:52:08 <LordAro> of course now that i'm looking at it it doesn't seem so awful
22:52:19 <TrueBrain> It is just on your first time
22:52:30 <TrueBrain> if that is "annoying as hell" ..... :P
22:52:52 <LordAro> i think i had something a bit worse in my head - have to sign up to something before even seeing it, and massive amount of delay in approval
22:52:54 <TrueBrain> what I most likely will change, is that it will already list what our ToS is, and what our licenseis
22:53:01 <LordAro> can't remember where i saw something of that level though
22:53:15 <TrueBrain> what I want to avoid, is what Python does (rightfully btw), and ask your home address
22:53:55 <LordAro> why do you say they do it rightfully?
22:54:34 <TrueBrain> they want a legal document
22:54:43 <TrueBrain> I am not really looking for that legal part
22:54:48 <TrueBrain> I just want to have done what we can
22:54:55 <TrueBrain> in an as-legal-as-possible-without-going-to-far way
22:55:10 <LordAro> ok, i think we're in agreement here :)
22:55:19 <TrueBrain> and tnx for challenging
22:55:22 <TrueBrain> I really do appreciate that
22:56:41 <TrueBrain> lol @ googlebot, they also fixed corp accounts
22:57:08 <LordAro> it could possibly be implemented using the checks API :D
22:57:09 <TrueBrain> in countries like mine it is not possible for me to sign a CLA when I work for a company :)
22:57:29 <TrueBrain> that is even leaner
22:57:35 <TrueBrain> we can make it mandatory
22:57:39 <TrueBrain> means no label blabla
22:57:56 <LordAro> hmm, checks is only via "GH Apps" right now though
22:58:07 <TrueBrain> which the bot has to be
22:58:48 <TrueBrain> back to my list .. I have the feeling I am missing stuff ..
22:59:02 * andythenorth will get slapped now :(
22:59:25 <peter1138> With or without lots of types?
22:59:50 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I promise you I will do exactly nothing for NRT
23:00:00 <andythenorth> peter1138: start with 16
23:00:05 <andythenorth> then 64 is a 'feature'
23:00:12 <andythenorth> release management eh :P
23:00:12 <peter1138> I can't. It only has 15 :p
23:00:20 <andythenorth> more than enough
23:02:13 <frosch123> TrueBrain: compile patchpacks :)
23:04:14 <LordAro> andythenorth: i feel it's only going to result in "complaints" if the number of roadtypes doesn't match the number of railtypes
23:04:34 <andythenorth> have we approved the 64 railtype PR? o_O
23:04:36 <TrueBrain> frosch123: added :)
23:04:53 <LordAro> andythenorth: it got merged, didn't it?
23:05:05 <LordAro> oh, that was cargoes, right?
23:07:24 <TrueBrain> that list really is longer than I expected ... and still I think I am missing stuff :D
23:07:40 <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, is that list you have there on trellow authorative? Can we write to it? Or is it just for you?
23:07:56 <TrueBrain> it is my list of tasks I want to do for OpenTTD
23:08:03 <TrueBrain> at least, that is why I created it
23:08:10 <TrueBrain> so others can see, and prioritize my time
23:08:11 <frosch123> TrueBrain: master server 2, authentication service :p
23:08:18 <TrueBrain> frosch123: already added :D
23:08:22 <TrueBrain> (well, rewrite MSU)
23:08:39 <frosch123> damn, shorter lists are better though
23:08:52 <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: so if you have any you like to add, please :)
23:08:56 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
23:09:12 <planetmaker_> aye, will do. Gotta say good night now though. Bye :)
23:09:48 <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh yes, nightlies are still missing
23:10:06 <LordAro> unless that's covered under Continuous Deployment
23:10:19 <TrueBrain> "Releases via Docker"
23:11:19 <TrueBrain> if CD works, there is a strong chance we just dockerize the whole shit .. should make it easier for others to help out too
23:11:27 <TrueBrain> as than you can run "OpenTTD.org" on your own machine :P
23:12:15 <TrueBrain> (just trying different ways to get people to help out with these things .. as the current infrastructure makes that too difficult)
23:12:32 <TrueBrain> you need 3 SSHs and 1 sudo to update the main website :P
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23:14:49 <TrueBrain> my wishlist is getting bigger and bigger :P
23:14:54 <TrueBrain> but I am pretty happy with my todo :)
23:17:57 <TrueBrain> right, something I have to think about tomorrow or so ... are we going to bother with requesting a license every year so we can use GitLab CI/CD .. or do I make something simple in DorpsGek to add the same functionality
23:18:12 <TrueBrain> I really dont want to add more custom stuff .. but I also dont want to do something every year
23:18:31 <peter1138> Make DorpsGek request a license every year :p
23:19:12 <TrueBrain> it needs human interaction, sadly
23:20:26 <LordAro> what can you add to DorpsGek to make it do the same?
23:20:44 <TrueBrain> all I want from such system that it can read a config file in a git repo, to do actions
23:21:02 <TrueBrain> and a simple web UI that shows what the status is, and where I can push: deploy to production
23:21:22 <LordAro> it'd be a shame to lose the GH builtin build status, IMO
23:21:38 <TrueBrain> no clue how you read that conclusion in what I wrote
23:21:39 <LordAro> i'm misunderstanding something
23:22:32 <TrueBrain> GitLab CI/CD really awesomely solved how you can do CI/CD in a simple way
23:22:36 <TrueBrain> Jenkinsfile is ... well .. crap
23:22:47 <TrueBrain> the gitlab yml file is a lot nicer
23:23:00 <TrueBrain> it also adds an UI to show were a run is ...
23:23:08 <TrueBrain> so if you merge something in master, it shows it deployed it to staging
23:23:15 <TrueBrain> and you can manually accept it to move to production
23:23:20 <TrueBrain> which is exactly what I would like
23:23:30 <LordAro> right, but wouldn't we lose some stuff by using GH instead of GL?
23:23:30 <TrueBrain> (and PRs it validates)
23:23:45 <TrueBrain> this is about replacing Jenkinsfile
23:23:56 <TrueBrain> things still report to GH
23:24:09 <TrueBrain> (reporting is just an API call)
23:24:15 <LordAro> jenkinsfile --> jenkins entirely?
23:24:22 <TrueBrain> Jenkins is up for debate
23:24:34 <TrueBrain> gitlab CI runners seem nice too
23:24:43 <LordAro> can you use the CI runners with jenkins?
23:24:50 <TrueBrain> Jenkins for us is just going to be agents btw
23:24:57 <TrueBrain> the CI runners are the agents, so no
23:25:24 <TrueBrain> but if I only want to run the GitLab runners, I can just use the GitLab CE
23:25:37 <TrueBrain> in the end, who runs the job, nobody should care about :)
23:25:58 <TrueBrain> but the person sitting between the CI and GH is what I have to tackle first
23:26:01 <LordAro> i feel like if you're not careful you're going to end up migrating the whole thing to GL.com :p
23:26:04 <TrueBrain> currently this is some Jenkins plugin, which is horrible
23:26:16 <TrueBrain> you would migrate to gl.org, but no
23:26:21 <TrueBrain> I have zero interest in that
23:26:32 <TrueBrain> GH is fine, and nothing in what I said above should change that
23:26:37 <TrueBrain> as I only talk about the CI/CD really
23:26:43 <TrueBrain> (and reporting information to GH is easy)
23:26:54 <LordAro> other than GL CI having to essentially duplicate the repo
23:27:01 <TrueBrain> implementation detail
23:27:08 <TrueBrain> the GL will be hidden away
23:27:37 <TrueBrain> the issue a bit is .. running your own travis is .. euh .. no tnx
23:27:44 <TrueBrain> creating it yourself is .. well .. why?
23:27:54 <TrueBrain> the only other I can find that does similar work, is gitlab CI
23:28:00 <TrueBrain> well, we have Jenkins .. but .. again .. Jenkins ... ugh
23:28:13 <TrueBrain> Jenkins doesnt give me enough control, basically
23:28:31 <TrueBrain> (it has some fundemental flaws to work in these setups)
23:28:41 <TrueBrain> the main issue is how it handles Jenkinsfiles
23:29:14 <TrueBrain> it first assigns an agent the job to fetch the repo, to process the Jenkinsfile, and than to execute it
23:29:25 <TrueBrain> ignoring how crap Jenkinsfiles are (2 languages in 1 .. really?!)
23:29:33 <TrueBrain> that means dockerizing is painful
23:29:43 <TrueBrain> I cannot always run a script
23:29:47 <TrueBrain> so I cannot trust the Jenkinsfile
23:29:49 <TrueBrain> so it has to run in a Docker
23:29:58 <TrueBrain> and ... than that Docker should start another Docker to do the wor
23:30:06 <TrueBrain> what I much rather have, is a script that gets the Jenkinsfile
23:30:12 <TrueBrain> so I can control actions
23:30:21 <TrueBrain> which is a really suck design choice
23:30:27 <TrueBrain> very very insecure tbfh
23:30:43 <TrueBrain> and as we are a public project .... I am not trusting anyone not to make a PR that starts a cryptominer
23:31:11 <TrueBrain> it would be okay, if I could say: use the Jenkinsfile from master
23:31:19 <TrueBrain> but no, it can ONLY use the Jenkinsfile that is part of the PR
23:31:22 <TrueBrain> which is just bullshit
23:31:33 <TrueBrain> OR .. I can hardcode the Jenkinsfile
23:31:36 <TrueBrain> meaning it is not in a VCS
23:33:05 <TrueBrain> so I was thinking about some simple custom language, where you can set some configs, like: staging is on this domain, production on this, you link to these containers, you run these CI dockers to validate, etc
23:33:13 <TrueBrain> and that DorpsGek coordinates (with Jenkins) to execute the right thing
23:33:17 <andythenorth> just reject commits with 'crypt' in the diff
23:33:24 <andythenorth> infosec by andythenorth
23:33:32 <TrueBrain> please don't apply for an infosec job
23:33:58 <andythenorth> probably catches 95% of those who try :P
23:34:06 <andythenorth> and the 5% you'd never catch anyway
23:34:23 <TrueBrain> that is why I want to run them ALL in a Docker :)
23:34:26 <__ln__> run your own cryptominer on the server at a higher priority, so it'll earn more
23:34:28 <TrueBrain> which I can restrict :)
23:34:42 <TrueBrain> either way ... LordAro, any ideas etc are welcoem
23:34:44 <TrueBrain> for now: good ngiht
23:34:53 <TrueBrain> give or take some typos
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