IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-06-18
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01:54:48 <ANIKHTOS> hello snail how are you??
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12:31:37 <LordAro> peter1138: i don't believe you
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14:03:22 <peter1138> Maybe ships should be like triremes in Civilization, don't stray too far else it'll get lost at sea. CPU hog solved.
14:16:23 <andythenorth> what do people read on the internet?
14:18:49 <peter1138> The internet is write-only.
14:19:03 <peter1138> load average: 47.90, 49.36, 46.43
14:19:05 <andythenorth> probably quote of the day
14:19:07 <peter1138> That's less than optimal.
14:19:26 <andythenorth> for the internet? :o
14:19:55 <peter1138> It's my internet gateway here, so kind of?
14:23:54 <peter1138> I might reboot it and wander off to the co-op.
14:24:32 <andythenorth> reboot the co-op and wander off the internet
14:25:29 <peter1138> load average: 3.25, 29.93, 40.18
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15:37:59 <supermop_work> cant figure out how to really marshal trains together with shunting
15:38:41 <supermop_work> i mean it kind of works but it is quite clumsy
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15:44:36 <supermop_work> long train enters a long platform from the south, and leaves half the wagons there - the train will have to leave to the north and the left rake will be at the souther end
15:45:49 <supermop_work> but then if a shunter brings more wagons from the south to couple on, the new train will be sticking out the platform
15:46:38 <FLHerne> Have them come from the north instead?
15:46:54 <FLHerne> Or couple, then push the whole rake into the platform, but that would be ugly
15:47:18 <FLHerne> More-generally, why would you want to do that in particular?
15:47:37 <supermop_work> to work around, you need either platforms like 1.5-2x the length of the full train, or such complex running around and head shunts that you use up so much time you have no savings from decoupling
15:47:58 <FLHerne> Given the ability to divide trains, I think I'd mostly want to shorten trains going in one direction, and then add those carriages onto the return services
15:49:00 <FLHerne> In which case you just have a shunter come in from the north, pull the carriages into a siding, then propel them onto the north end of the next southbound service
15:49:05 <supermop_work> FLHerne: if you are bring extra wagons from the north, the full train will have to leave to the north, which is unlikely if it came from the south as a full train to begin with
15:49:32 <supermop_work> also the shunting patch doesn't support pushing yet
15:49:36 <supermop_work> which would help a lot
15:49:40 <FLHerne> No, the train engine stays on the south end
15:49:52 <FLHerne> Wait, there's a real patch for this?! :o
15:49:57 <supermop_work> currently it works well for head shunts/ running round a rake
15:50:01 <FLHerne> Clearly I missed something
15:50:17 <supermop_work> and works ok for splitting trains,
15:50:27 <supermop_work> but doesn't work well for recombining them
15:51:27 <supermop_work> but for very long trains/ or where you have many rakes of wagons loading and want only one locomotive to pull them once full
15:52:18 <supermop_work> you end up loosing so much time in running around and space from sidings, that you end up worse off than if every train had it's own locomotive like in trunk
15:52:35 <supermop_work> mostly it is just cute to watch them running about
15:55:12 <supermop_work> platform end] [pbs sig>] [turnout for siding] [<pbs sig] [siding w/waypoint]
15:55:13 <FLHerne> Given OTTD's economics and weird scale, any of this complexity only makes sense for 'realism' or just fun
15:55:32 <supermop_work> is 4 tiles for one platform, 3 if you skip the pbs on the siding
15:55:46 <FLHerne> Since the majority of trainsets have passed that point already, I'm not sure that's a real problem
15:56:10 <supermop_work> the more platforms or entry/exit tracks you add, the longer that throat has to be
15:56:36 <FLHerne> Especially since the 'optimal' way to play OTTD seems to be airports at opposed corners of the map and spam as many planes as one can build
15:57:17 <FLHerne> I hadn't heard of it at all; not reading the forums recently
15:57:32 <supermop_work> and the longer the train, the longer it takes a locomotive to run from the headshunt back to the siding at the station throat
15:57:48 <supermop_work> blocking a track in the process
15:58:08 <supermop_work> decoupling patch in the first page of development section
15:59:06 <supermop_work> currently id doesn't support multiple units, which would be the easiest for splitting passenger trains
15:59:56 <FLHerne> Wow, I need to see what can be done with that
16:00:47 <supermop_work> i think a low speed shunting operation could be added, but its just one guy working on it right now
16:02:52 <andythenorth> isn't shunting just for eye candy?
16:02:55 <andythenorth> and changing engine
16:03:05 <andythenorth> I didn't try it, and I've bailed out of forums
16:03:15 <andythenorth> I watched the video, looked nice
16:05:24 <peter1138> It's kinda pointless micromanagement.
16:05:50 <peter1138> Remember when we had patches to manually control trains? Wot larks.
16:06:10 <peter1138> (It was only ever trains, nobody seems interested in manually controlling road vehicles, ships or planes...)
16:08:02 <LordAro> isn't pointless micromanagement the point?
16:13:17 <andythenorth> isn't the point to get as many nice PRs done as we can? :P
16:13:49 <andythenorth> be interesting to compare git commits last 3 months, compared to same period previous years
16:13:58 <andythenorth> someone make a chart :P
16:14:23 <andythenorth> so did you all quit forums a long time before me?
16:14:40 <FLHerne> I didn't intentionally quit, I just stopped reading them :P
16:14:57 <andythenorth> I only just realised how bad they are
16:15:02 <FLHerne> (mostly because I hardly played OTTD for a couple of years)
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16:21:05 <supermop_work> andythenorth: shunting is for giving life to cute little 08s
16:32:15 <supermop_work> that's all i ask of it
16:32:45 <supermop_work> today it is forecast to be 97 sausages
16:36:43 <Arveen> that's almost 100 sausages
16:39:22 <Arveen> are 100 sausages = 1 kiloSausage ?
16:42:06 <Rubidium> isn't is common knowledge that it'd be a hectosausage?
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17:17:25 <supermop_work> maybe its a logarithmic scale
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17:31:54 <ANIKHTOS> hello to all have a nice day
17:55:28 <LANJesus> what's that in Freedom?
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18:04:50 <Flygon> LANJesus, in this room, we measure our sausages in Bunnings Snags.
18:05:39 <Flygon> Shhiiit. I so want a Bunnings Snag right now.
18:05:44 <Flygon> But it's 2:05AM and they're closed atm.
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18:39:23 <nielsm> would I have to remove that 5k limit myself too, then? :)
18:40:35 <nielsm> just making a release build first, don't think a debug build is controllable here ;)
18:42:26 <nielsm> grr those ottdc saves need newgrfs not on bananas
18:46:18 <nielsm> legend: Y axis subdivisions are 10 ms intervals, X axis subdivision is 1 second intervals
18:46:32 <planetmaker_> with those it should be able to load all. Not always exactly matching, but at least compatible
18:50:41 <nielsm> TrueBrain, I think this is closer to what you're looking for?
18:53:32 <Alberth> not sure the numbers are useful, it's so fast, you can't even read it
18:54:02 <Alberth> especially the red one, as it doesn't have a lot of contrast
18:54:57 <nielsm> the video encoding makes red really bad, it's much more readable on the actual screen
18:58:47 <nielsm> hmm how do plurals in the strings work again...
19:06:00 <peter1138> nielsm, nah, that one I posted loads without changes.
19:06:54 <peter1138> That video highlights that maybe some stuff could be spread out better.
19:18:08 <peter1138> I still find the graphs weird as they are not time-based.
19:18:32 <peter1138> ms used per second might be a more meaningful metric.
19:19:16 <nielsm> each data point graphed is literally how much time spent inside each routine
19:19:28 <peter1138> Yes, but the axis is not time.
19:20:06 <peter1138> Did I pull too early? :p
19:20:30 <nielsm> yeah I haven't pushed this yes
19:20:43 <Wolf01> Oh, nice you are playing with graphs too :D
19:22:24 <Wolf01> BTW, I'm used with plotting in the other direction
19:22:49 <nielsm> lol now this is horrible
19:23:08 <nielsm> tried that same ottdc save I took video with before, but in a debug build
19:23:31 <Wolf01> Debug kills performance a lot :P
19:23:51 <nielsm> game loop times are so bad they are outside the graphing range
19:24:28 <Wolf01> Are you sure you can't flip the graphs horizontally?
19:24:59 <Wolf01> Because with labels now I find it really weird
19:27:13 <nielsm> from a much smaller save of my own ;)
19:28:55 <nielsm> actually, drawing the graphs the other direction will be a bit annoying, since I don't get free clipping on the far end
19:34:32 <Wolf01> Yeah, better, now the time flows in the right direction :P
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19:36:50 <nielsm> noooo why must you rebuild everything just because I modified the text of two strings in english.txt
19:37:01 <nielsm> I didn't add or remove any of the string names!
19:37:03 <LANJesus> because BUILD SYSTEM.
19:37:26 <LANJesus> is it probably just relinking everything?
19:37:36 <LANJesus> or does the system not use caching
19:37:40 <nielsm> nope, really rebuilding every single .cpp files including strings.h
19:37:46 <nielsm> it detects the file has changed
19:38:42 <Wolf01> Next patch: build system should detect the addition/deletion of strings to rebuild
19:40:09 <LordAro> it's probably actually just rebuilding the files that pull in strings.h
19:40:18 <LordAro> which is basically all of them anyway
19:40:22 <LANJesus> LordAro: isn't that just about all of them? heh yeah.
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19:42:16 <nielsm> peter1138, pushed the improved graphs now :)
19:45:07 <ANIKHTOS> okey i mamke a varible in the settign and now i am tryign to access it i place it in the GameCreationSettings
19:45:28 <ANIKHTOS> GameCreationSettings *_slowD2 = &GameCreationSettings ;
19:45:38 <ANIKHTOS> will this get me there or not??
19:46:39 <ANIKHTOS> i need to create a pointer
19:46:49 <ANIKHTOS> but i fail at creatign it coreclty
19:49:34 <ANIKHTOS> is nto the case i am trying to do??
19:49:54 <ANIKHTOS> access something in the GameCreationSettings struct??
19:56:17 <ANIKHTOS> lordare can you give me a hint?? how i can do it??
19:56:22 <Alberth> you may want to read about the difference between classes/structs and instances of them (ie objects)
19:57:32 <Alberth> &GameCreationSettings has no meaning to me
19:57:40 <Alberth> the address of a type???
19:59:19 <ANIKHTOS> well accordign to the turorial it shoudl give the memory adress
19:59:56 <Alberth> a type has no memory address
20:01:11 <Alberth> int i; &int doesn't exist, &i does
20:01:47 <ANIKHTOS> we have the struct CameCreationSettings
20:02:06 <ANIKHTOS> the members do have memory address right??
20:02:27 <Alberth> no, not in a type, you have to make an instance of the struct
20:02:45 <Alberth> that instance has an address, and thus the members in the instance have it too
20:03:09 <ANIKHTOS> okey so first i need to make an instanc eof gamecreationsettings
20:03:21 <ANIKHTOS> and then i can mke the pointer to link to my variable??
20:03:41 <Alberth> what variable do you want to link to?
20:04:23 <Alberth> any reason why instance.member wouldn't work?
20:06:03 <ANIKHTOS> well you seid look the code and see how other done it and the example i found was with a pointer
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20:10:24 <Alberth> "other code did it" isn't a terribly convincing reason :)
20:11:20 <Alberth> "why do you shoot people?" "oh, he does it too" :D
20:14:18 <ANIKHTOS> i look what other do so i can be somehow consistent in the syle of coding
20:14:34 <ANIKHTOS> and also spped up the learning
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20:18:33 <ANIKHTOS> okey so i start form here GameCreationSettings _slowD2;
20:18:54 <ANIKHTOS> crete a member called _slowD2
20:19:21 <LANJesus> most coding style things i do is cargo cult, whatever cult i'm in...
20:21:13 <ANIKHTOS> well lanjesus you are your own cult the cult of lan :P
20:21:46 <LANJesus> i was agreeing with you, somewhat. at least for coding style. now language usage is a different thing
20:22:26 <Wolf01> Until you stay away from the machine cult you are safe ;)
20:22:44 <ANIKHTOS> too many compile errors i am getting frustrated
20:29:41 <Alberth> you create a variable, an instance of the structure
20:30:38 <Alberth> and yes, c++ assumes you know what you're doing, it's not helpful or trying to make things simple
20:31:09 <Alberth> and openttd is not a simple program
20:33:42 <Cthulhux> c++ is klingon for "i can't do c".
20:33:56 <ANIKHTOS> GameCreationSettings _slowD2; this will create an instance??
20:37:31 <Alberth> it does, it creates a variable _slowD2 with enough room for holding all data in GameCreatinSettings
20:38:05 <Alberth> Cthulhux: nah, using c for shooting oneself in the foot was too easy to avoid :p
20:47:15 <ANIKHTOS> _slowD2.slow now has a value?? a default value??
20:48:31 <ANIKHTOS> slow is what i add in the stric of the GameCreationSettings
20:49:56 <Alberth> unless you have added a constructor that initializes the variable, it has a random value
20:50:22 <Alberth> ie whatever was in that memory at the time the variable was created
20:55:19 <ANIKHTOS> i am doign cyrcles i get closer but at same type i am still far away
20:56:16 <nielsm> I think you're overcomplicating things because you're misunderstanding what's required
20:56:45 <nielsm> in my recent experimental cargotiles patch I add two settings
20:57:38 <LANJesus> and openttd's code is r'lyehian for "omg why did we port this from x86 machine code"
20:58:01 <LordAro> LANJesus: most of it isn't quite that bad :p
20:58:13 <LANJesus> LordAro: I'VE SEENT THINGS I CAN'T UNSEENT
20:58:42 <LordAro> ORCT2 on the other hand...
20:59:27 <LordAro> i think they've worked out names for all the variables at this point
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21:00:08 <LANJesus> i'm too afraid to 'optimize' anything in openttd for fear of breaking some esoteric platform which i don't have access
21:01:02 <LordAro> pretty much everything else is up to any maintainers
21:01:08 <LordAro> anything specific will be documented as such
21:02:12 <ANIKHTOS> i doen the changes in the files
21:02:20 <ANIKHTOS> have the new setting added
21:02:32 <nielsm> you def. need to set up a machine running os/2, both as a buildbot, but also one where selected people can get a VNC connection (or similar) to and play the builds for testing!
21:02:38 <ANIKHTOS> i just do nto knwo how to access it
21:03:28 <LordAro> nielsm: sounds like you're volunteering
21:04:43 <nielsm> ANIKHTOS, _settings_game.game_creation.* and _settings_newgame.game_creation.* are your global GameCreationSettings instances
21:05:37 <nielsm> declared in settings_type.h
21:07:00 <ANIKHTOS> so i do not need to make an instance i can use the _settings_game.game_creation.* ??
21:07:19 <nielsm> not only do you not need to make your own instance, doing so would be straight up wrong
21:07:37 <nielsm> because the globals are where the actual, valid values are loaded into and saved back from
21:08:23 <ANIKHTOS> _settings_game.game_creation.slow is the value of my varialbe??
21:08:46 <nielsm> for the currently active game
21:09:03 <nielsm> and _settings_newgame.game_creation.slow is the setting that would be used if the player starts a new game right now
21:10:07 <nielsm> the values from _settings_game get stored into savegames, the values from _settings_newgame get stored into openttd.cfg
21:10:16 <ANIKHTOS> so when i load a game it uses the _settings_game.game_creation.* but when i star a new game it sues the _settings_game.game_creation.*
21:10:31 <peter1138> It's not a detail you need to care about.
21:10:33 <LordAro> glx: so it would seem that msys2 doesn't have __pragma, only _Pragma
21:10:53 <peter1138> The default value comes from what you placed in the definition.
21:10:59 <nielsm> it's automatic that when the player starts a new game, _settings_newgame is copied into _settings_game
21:11:15 <nielsm> so the newgame setting becomes valid for the new game
21:11:21 <nielsm> you don't need to do anything for that to happen
21:11:26 <peter1138> Classic case of the X-Y problem here :-)
21:11:36 <nielsm> just use _settings_game.* for all your logic that needs the value
21:13:30 <glx> LordAro: __pragma is specific to MSVC
21:13:32 <nielsm> also, you should really find space and time to install visual studio and use that instead of mingw, you get dramatically better tools for navigating and understanding the existing code
21:14:14 <Alberth> understanding what the code says is not improving with better tools :p
21:15:00 <nielsm> being able to easily look up the definitions of existing things IMO makes it easier to understand their purpose and usage
21:15:42 <nielsm> and doing a "find symbol" on something like GameCreationSettings makes it easier to see how it gets used in existing code
21:15:46 <glx> LordAro: and MSVC will not like _Pragma I think
21:16:05 <ANIKHTOS> thank you very much nielsm
21:16:22 <nielsm> _Pragma looks like a "modern C"-ism, and yeah MSVC won't like that
21:16:28 <LordAro> glx: _Pragma is in C99...
21:16:33 <Alberth> if you don't understand the difference between Blah x and Blah *x, better tools won't fix that
21:16:50 <glx> _Pragma is gcc __pragma :)
21:16:54 <nielsm> I call everything past C89 "modern" ;)
21:17:06 <nielsm> (because so much C code still lives in that past)
21:17:17 <Alberth> still programming in C89, every now and then :(
21:17:24 <LordAro> glx: nope, definitely C standard
21:17:38 <michi_cc> LordAro: MSVC only supports the part of C99 needed for C++.
21:17:38 <nielsm> _Pragma is not in any C++ standard afaik
21:17:49 <LordAro> c++11 seems to have adopted it
21:17:50 <glx> and usually if MSVC added something before it appeared in the standard it won't touch it
21:18:47 <nielsm> doesn't C++ prefer [[attributes]] for things, in contrast to C99-and-later _Attributes
21:19:17 <LordAro> it does, but it likes backwards compatibility with C as well
21:21:44 <LordAro> afaict MSVC does not support _Pragma
21:22:10 <nielsm> but I think it has __declspec(pragma(...)) or something like that?
21:22:10 <glx> they don't need it, they have __pragma ;)
21:23:58 <glx> and that's why we have stdafx.h
21:24:16 <ANIKHTOS> it works THNK YOU SO MUCH
21:25:05 <ANIKHTOS> but now the code runs a bit strange
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21:33:17 <ANIKHTOS> it works now you can change the factor of how slow it is from inside playing
21:34:12 <ANIKHTOS> 1 uestion do you want the autosave to be at normal months or slow months?? now it is at normal months
21:41:52 <nielsm> I want the same number of autosaves to happen within an hour of real time playing regardless of the slowing factor
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21:44:29 <ANIKHTOS> so you want the normal month autosave which will mena you willl have N facor autosave sin a slow month
21:44:35 <LordAro> right, that's everything except freetype working with msys2
21:47:06 <nielsm> hmm, the company graphs are actually drawn the same even in RTL languages
21:47:19 <nielsm> is that just because nobody has cared enough to mirror them?
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21:52:13 <ANIKHTOS> in the game down in the screen where you see the date the news and your money
21:52:40 <ANIKHTOS> in which file they are?? i want to change the date display to show the normal days passign as hours
21:53:24 <nielsm> since it's called the status bar
21:53:48 <ANIKHTOS> well i did not know how the game was calling it
21:54:09 <glx> it's called the same in many applications
22:00:45 <Alberth> nielsm: maybe nobody thought about it?
22:01:41 <LordAro> so apparently the solution to building with a static freetype is to append -lfreetype to the end of the ldflags (after -lharfbuzz)
22:01:56 <LordAro> despite -lfreetype already being in the list, but before -lharfbuzz
22:03:36 <LordAro> freetype pulls it in when specifying --static with pkg-config
22:03:58 <LordAro> (along with graphite2, glib-2.0 and all sorts of other fun stuff)
22:04:13 <LordAro> i know freetype & harfbuzz do have some sort of circular dependency with each other
22:06:03 <LordAro> with `pkg-config --libs freetype2` yes
22:06:13 <LordAro> `pkg-config --static --libs freetype2` does other stuff
22:06:21 <glx> D:\developpement\GitHub\OpenTTD [master ≡]> pkg-config --static --libs freetype2
22:06:21 <glx> -Ld:/mingw/lib -lfreetype
22:06:36 <LordAro> well my linux system does the same
22:07:44 <glx> but I think I built freetype myself
22:13:50 <glx> because most of them are not available in mingw-get
22:13:55 <LordAro> well that was the way with the old style
22:19:39 <nielsm> yay got the graphs scaling properly too, so I can make them handle larger font sizes properly
22:26:21 <LANJesus> nielsm: will you be indicating FPS on the chart also? it feels weird having rates one place and duration another
22:27:10 <nielsm> FPS is a bit strange to graph like this, since it's generally an aggregate value over a range of measurements
22:27:18 <nielsm> so more like a moving average
22:27:32 <LANJesus> do you have a branch on github?
22:28:31 <nielsm> pushing this in a moment
22:29:07 <LANJesus> the game itself has an inherent max framerate?
22:29:29 <nielsm> normal rate is 30 milliseconds per tick
22:29:48 <LANJesus> are graphics rendered once per tick?
22:29:49 <nielsm> enabling "fast forward" removes that restriction and runs ticks as fast as possible
22:30:01 <LANJesus> i'm a bit ignorant when it comes to openttd internals
22:30:20 <LANJesus> i only recently hacked on the windows 10 mouse glitch
22:30:23 <nielsm> I don't think the game supports simulating a frame and not rendering it
22:30:29 <LANJesus> but that got resolved officially ; D
22:31:07 <LANJesus> nielsm: hmm, i wonder what dedicated servers do ; )
22:31:16 <nielsm> they render to nowhere!
22:31:29 <nielsm> actually, I haven't checked
22:31:37 <nielsm> there is a null video output
22:31:44 <LANJesus> it'd be funny if the sprite manipulations are still carried out
22:31:48 <nielsm> but the framebuffer rendering (blitter) is separate from that
22:42:35 <nielsm> (I hope it shows in the video despite bad encoding)
22:43:17 <nielsm> it matches perfectly with the "central timer" logic train :)
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23:19:31 <LANJesus> none of your videos play for me nielsm
23:19:55 <LANJesus> oh weird. works in firefox, not chrome
23:20:28 <LANJesus> that video quality is pretty decent
23:22:43 <LANJesus> edge says invalid source
23:23:45 <LordAro> needs to be https to work for me, in chrome
23:24:21 <LANJesus> whoa that's weird as hell. same for me, also in edge
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23:31:07 <LordAro> "Refused to load media from 'http://0x0.st/sL6n.mp4' because it violates the following Content Security Policy directive: "default-src https:". Note that 'media-src' was not explicitly set, so 'default-src' is used as a fallback."
23:31:13 <LordAro> is what dev console tells me
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23:32:11 <nielsm> I don't know if the host supports https
23:32:32 <nielsm> slightly odd it won't fetch video from it
23:32:45 <LordAro> changing to https works fine
23:33:24 <LordAro> tells you perfectly what's wrong :p
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23:50:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so your browser has a "https only" policy, but doesn't autoreplace "http" with "https"?
continue to next day ⏵
