IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-06-07
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08:41:02 <andythenorth> no pikka? For shame :P
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10:49:43 <peter1138> andytheandythenorththenorth
10:51:50 <peter1138> Thanks to michi_cc I can now run OpenTTD on Windows reliably ;p
10:53:34 <peter1138> Just need to sort out the non-Windows builds.
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15:43:11 <planetmaker> we have some guy who asks whether we have a bug bounty programme
15:43:34 <planetmaker> and now that I told him that we run everything 100% by volunteers he still asks what we offer for information
15:44:36 <planetmaker> bug bounty as in for "vulnerability in your site"
15:44:53 <planetmaker> yeah, tempted to reply just that. Fame by thanking you on the website or so
15:44:54 <andythenorth> we offer him TrueBrain
15:45:06 <andythenorth> is it a ransom thing?
15:45:22 <LordAro> given the age of django it's running with, it wouldn't surprise me at all
15:45:24 <planetmaker> I've literally not more information that I just told you
15:45:36 <planetmaker> but yeah... django... might be the entry point
15:47:48 <LordAro> basically any CVE on that page? :p
15:47:55 <LordAro> can't remember what version it's running
15:49:55 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: make sure you have an offsite backup?
15:50:43 <planetmaker> probably a good idea
15:51:02 <planetmaker> yet... probably only TB can do that reasonably. Maybe rubi
15:52:17 <planetmaker> and TBs approach would be to simply trash the VM and setup something new with words like "was rubbish anyway" :P
15:55:38 <planetmaker> no. But it's his approach with everything done 3 or more months earlier ;)
16:21:26 <andythenorth> static website :P
16:21:54 <andythenorth> the risk is someone with mirror access inserting malware
16:22:02 <andythenorth> the website is disposable no?
16:22:08 <andythenorth> hmm, maybe we have user creds in it
16:22:16 * andythenorth back to actual work
16:22:25 <planetmaker> it's old an ugly, too
16:22:38 <planetmaker> or has it recently been updated?
16:22:44 <planetmaker> or maybe the admin panel?
16:23:16 <planetmaker> old and ugly as in the version it uses
16:27:16 <planetmaker> or a bug in translator@, in eints?
16:27:29 <planetmaker> devzone... has seen better maintained times
16:27:33 <LordAro> wiki has not been updated
16:27:58 <LordAro> (i did it at work recently)
16:28:58 <planetmaker> hm... but no-one let you?
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19:07:34 <Wolf01> So you are monsters and made me play spider with 4 colors :(
19:10:22 <frosch123> who plays spider with less than 4?
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20:24:21 <peter1138> Hmm, villagers don't seem to work properly in 1.13 snapshots :(
20:24:34 <LordAro> have they ever worked properly?
20:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> these lazy villagers, never working
20:35:07 <TrueBrain> [15:55] <planetmaker> no. But it's his approach with everything done 3 or more months earlier ;) <- don't be like that .... 14 days is long enough tbfh :P
20:39:08 <LordAro> apt upgrade? nah, delete and rebuild
20:39:41 <TrueBrain> I honestly wonder what I did to make planetmaker think that, but okay ...
20:40:25 <andythenorth> all our reps are undeserved :P
20:40:49 <TrueBrain> he is mostly bashing how the servers are maintained .. gets a bit old tbh
20:41:11 <peter1138> Well, they did used to harvest wheat and breed. Not so right now.
20:41:27 <peter1138> I don't think it was bashing :-)
20:42:29 <TrueBrain> bah, email is via gmail .. no IP to grep for
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20:47:57 <TrueBrain> can find his FB, Twitter, vuln record .. but not his IP :P
20:50:49 <TrueBrain> where things just worked
20:53:47 <andythenorth> like my keyboard used to work
20:53:58 <peter1138> Mine works now, since I sprayed a bit of WD-40 on it...
20:54:27 <TrueBrain> LordAro: but if you want to help, think of a way to maintain something like a wiki with very low effort
20:54:35 <TrueBrain> upgrading mediawiki is drama
20:54:46 <TrueBrain> (because of several required changes to work in the current setup)
20:56:02 <LordAro> i wrote an ansible script for work
20:56:07 <LordAro> seems to work quite well
20:56:16 <LordAro> and i'm not sure i'd say that upgrading mediawiki was "drama"
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20:56:54 <LordAro> needs a test instance with everything copied over, but that's obvious :p
20:57:19 <andythenorth> is there no import-export? :P
20:57:54 <LordAro> sure, but you test changes in isolation
20:58:00 <LordAro> especially if it's big changes
20:58:31 <TrueBrain> LordAro: every upgrade, LDAP is implemented differently
20:58:44 <TrueBrain> because LDAP is via a plugin, last we upgraded .. and plugins .. are .. special
20:59:07 <TrueBrain> so upgrading is not as easy as "just install the latest version"
20:59:22 <TrueBrain> last time we ended up changing php files ..
20:59:30 <LordAro> well it's been pretty stable for the last 8? major versions afaik
21:00:04 <TrueBrain> so good for you that you made an ansible script .. not helping OpenTTD by standing on the side line: THIS IS EASY
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21:00:26 <TrueBrain> it should start with: why was it drama for you? what were the issues? etc :)
21:00:41 <TrueBrain> saying: I did it somewhere else too, is rarely any promise or guarantee :D
21:01:24 <TrueBrain> I always notice I get more and more annoyed by a product the longer I have to fiddle with it to get it to work, reading back my comments I made in the code :D
21:02:09 <LordAro> iirc, the main issues i had were with plugins that had been customised in the past :p
21:02:25 <TrueBrain> so let lose of what you did for work
21:02:30 <TrueBrain> and either help with OpenTTD
21:02:34 <TrueBrain> or .. well .. ssssh :P
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21:03:26 <TrueBrain> as last I checked, I am not new at this shit, and I am telling you mediawiki was a pita :D
21:03:32 <TrueBrain> well, FlySpray was worse
21:04:07 <glx> move the wiki to github ? ;)
21:04:16 <TrueBrain> if it would have a decent wiki :P
21:04:57 <TrueBrain> owh, right, imagick .. that was the other horror
21:07:10 <LordAro> so there are actually only 3 plugins on the wiki - checkuser, graphviz & ldap. checkuser looks to be an "official" plugin and is used by mediawiki so i see no issues there, graphviz - i had troubles with this, but mostly because the plugin had been hacked to provide embedded svgs in a way that was no longer compatible with the plugin, nor the wiki itself. ldap - for me, this was just a case of plugging
21:07:16 <LordAro> in login details, and not much else
21:07:22 <LordAro> i should add that my own wiki upgrade was from 1.23 to 1.28
21:07:57 <TrueBrain> again, leave away what your work did .. most likely not really relevant :)
21:08:03 <TrueBrain> and help to think how we are going to upgrade ours
21:08:09 <LordAro> it's difficult to say much more without seeing inside
21:08:38 <TrueBrain> so ask the questions :)
21:08:52 <TrueBrain> so I read your first question as: are there any other plugins/modifications
21:09:06 <TrueBrain> ReCaptcha is running
21:09:12 <TrueBrain> which is .. euh .. painful
21:09:20 <TrueBrain> but if it didnt change, we have it working :P
21:09:28 <LordAro> recaptcha plugin looks like it's included with mediawiki since 1.21
21:09:40 <TrueBrain> lets hope the configuration hasnt changed
21:10:04 <TrueBrain> ah, yes, the proxy ... for some idiotic reason this needs some additional effort
21:10:37 <TrueBrain> uses MySQL .. which is up for debate tbfh
21:11:02 <LordAro> configuration has changed a lot in newer versions - plugins are registered with wfLoadExtension(), rather than require_once blah
21:11:19 <TrueBrain> over the years it turned out that our LDAP is for some reason "special" .. it was default back then, but now software rarely "just likes it"
21:11:21 <Wolf01> <peter1138> Hmm, villagers don't seem to work properly in 1.13 snapshots :( <- I'm trying to expand a village, followed the rules etc, they still clump in a 5x4 house... 7 of them
21:11:24 <LordAro> the old way is still supported (i think the ldap plugin still uses it), but newer way is "better"
21:11:43 <TrueBrain> but okay ... first things first: should we still use mediawiki
21:11:56 <TrueBrain> if history is any say, upgrading is always more painful than time available :)
21:12:06 <TrueBrain> is there a lower-effort way of hosting a wiki
21:12:10 <Wolf01> They really recognize the houses, but seem to forget of them on the 2nd night
21:12:50 <TrueBrain> is a static website on a git repo with PR access to anyone, better? (to name one)
21:13:33 <TrueBrain> changes on the wiki are rare and far apart these days
21:13:37 <LordAro> it needs to be freely editable, tbh
21:13:54 <TrueBrain> depends on your definition of freely, I guess
21:14:04 <LordAro> well, without waiting for any approval
21:14:08 <TrueBrain> editing without logging in, for example, turned out to be a horrible idea :P
21:14:36 <LordAro> the wiki is slow to change, but i think that's more of a reflection of OTTD's current state, rather than because it should remain that way
21:14:57 <TrueBrain> my question remains :) We are now used to mediawiki, but is that the right tool for the job
21:15:01 <TrueBrain> what do other projects do?
21:15:05 <TrueBrain> I need someone to look into that
21:15:08 <TrueBrain> as unbiased as possible :D
21:17:41 <LANJesus> a lot of projects adopt all of the github features if they're new projects
21:17:55 <LANJesus> older projects tend to use a mix
21:22:09 <andythenorth> depends if it's user docs or project-authored docs
21:23:35 <TrueBrain> and just to be clear: I am just asking the question
21:23:43 <TrueBrain> doing something because you have been doing it, is a piss poor reason :D
21:24:36 <Wolf01> TrueBrain: wikis made devs lazy, no more official guides because "players will write them better"... if they even do, usually the articles are filled with mistakes
21:25:27 <TrueBrain> I observe the same, indeed
21:25:43 <TrueBrain> (in other projects we stopped making wikis, as it never ended well :D)
21:30:47 <TrueBrain> LordAro: and if we do use mediawiki, we need to find a way to make upgrading easy .. so I imagine a docker that runs the wiki (connecting to LDAP/MySQL)
21:30:56 <TrueBrain> that also makes testing significant easier
21:31:25 <TrueBrain> other ideas are welcome too, but test VMs have shown to be painful at best
21:32:21 <TrueBrain> with _ is always better
21:32:35 <TrueBrain> problem is, I cannot hand you a copy of MySQL or LDAP
21:32:48 <TrueBrain> so we need to find a way to mock that sufficiently
21:34:21 <LordAro> well there's nothing in the mediawiki db that can't be shared, surely?
21:34:50 <TrueBrain> possibly; would have to check
21:34:56 <TrueBrain> LDAP for sure I cannot ... for some silly reason :P
21:35:17 <LordAro> how about the connection? is lookup password protected?
21:35:58 <TrueBrain> connection is not public
21:36:02 <TrueBrain> (for some sane reason :D)
21:37:10 <TrueBrain> but if needed we can bounce that via SSH
21:37:22 <TrueBrain> but I am more tempted to make a mock-docker that is organized the same
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21:38:09 <LordAro> as in, only on the internal ottd "network" ?
21:38:28 <LordAro> i guess it's too much to ask for you to set something up and give me access to only that
21:39:00 <LordAro> only the theoretical mediawiki docker instance
21:39:50 <TrueBrain> MySQL has to be outside the network
21:40:02 <TrueBrain> best I can do is an LDAP connection
21:40:09 <TrueBrain> (over SSH, but that is not relevant)
21:41:04 <TrueBrain> I dont want testing stuff to connect to a production MySQL
21:41:39 <LordAro> this docker-compose thing looks quite useful
21:44:44 <LordAro> except of course.. graphviz
21:44:47 <peter1138> TrueBrain, how big are your Windows .exes now you don't need ICU? :)
21:44:49 <LordAro> is it even used anywhere?
21:45:35 <TrueBrain> peter1138: didnt test yet
21:46:22 <nielsm> my win64 debug builds are 22 MB
21:47:23 <LordAro> TrueBrain: wiki search (possibly unreliable) indicates Sandbox & Talk:Cargo only
21:47:26 <TrueBrain> so did anyone put nielsm in the Editors group on GitHub already? *looks at michi_cc*
21:47:27 <LordAro> neither of which are working :D
21:47:34 <nielsm> win32 debug before is 27 MB
21:47:38 <peter1138> My release build is 5.5 MB
21:47:40 <TrueBrain> lot of pages are not really working tbh LordAro
21:48:58 <TrueBrain> now you can approve (but not merge I think?) shit too nielsm :)
21:49:03 <TrueBrain> keep up the good comments :)
21:49:30 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> LDAP for sure I cannot ... for some silly reason :P <-- you could try getting a GDPR permission from everyone that ever made an account, that you want to share their data :p
21:49:35 <nielsm> peter1138: I'm piggybacking a fix for the CAT file complaining on PR #6819 if that's good enough :)
21:49:39 <peter1138> Hmm, debug build is 23MB, still large. But that doesn't matter :)
21:49:43 <TrueBrain> LordAro: it seems he has a good feeling for what shit is :D
21:49:53 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah ..... no
21:50:30 <andythenorth> someone approve my PR :P
21:51:24 <planetmaker_> andythenorth, if you walk me through how to do, I'm happy to give it a go
21:51:51 <TrueBrain> step 1: get a github account
21:51:55 <nielsm> yep release builds are "tiny" now, used to be like 12 MB or more, down to 5.2 MB for win64
21:52:06 <TrueBrain> that is good news :D
21:52:20 <TrueBrain> makes my work a lot lot LOT easier
21:52:43 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I might look into spinning up a VM to develop dockers on or something ..
21:53:25 <nielsm> you know, I remember when I saw the first pre-alpha of what became openttd in #tycoon some time in 2003 or whenever it was, the exe file was a few hundred kb or less, significantly less than the TTDW exe file, and that was a bragging point for <forget original hacker's name>
21:55:01 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: I have no idea how to add somebody to a group or if I even have the rights for that.
21:55:19 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: I assumed as much :) So I just did that :)
21:55:37 <TrueBrain> he just has to accept the invite :D
21:56:40 <m1cr0man> Hey folks. Looking for some pro tips if anyone has got them ;) I keep cloning vehicles then going in and having to manually set them to share orders with the vehicle I cloned. Is there a better way to clone a vehicle and share orders?
21:57:36 <peter1138> nielsm, it was a bit smaller in the C days even ;)
21:57:51 <peter1138> m1cr0man, ctrl-click when cloning will shrae the orders.
21:58:01 <michi_cc> nielsm: We do have a few more features today. Gameplay itself is probably the smallest part of the increase, but all the other stuff around from squirrel to better compression, networking et cetera.
21:58:01 <m1cr0man> awh, awesome! :D thanks
21:58:50 <michi_cc> OTTD even has proper IME input for strangely lettered languages on Win and OSX nowadays.
21:59:52 <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: you can also merge it!
22:00:26 <planetmaker_> I see that. Was making sure that the commit message confirmed to standards. Just pressed the button :)
22:00:47 <andythenorth> commits are checked by bot ;)
22:00:47 <peter1138> The CI system already checks that :-)
22:06:48 <nielsm> gn, tomorrow's going to be a draining day at work
22:07:40 <nielsm> (teambuilding stuff but I have to get in to the office early and set some temps up to cover for the dept)
22:08:14 <planetmaker_> ciao unknown new openttd dev :)
22:08:26 <planetmaker_> good to see a new active face here :D
22:08:55 <TrueBrain> for dev I need to add him to yet another group :P Can be arranged .. but not my call :P
22:09:32 <planetmaker_> currently not mine really either. But the git log shows a lot of activity the last months
22:10:04 <TrueBrain> even peter1138 joined in! :P
22:10:30 <nielsm> I've mostly touched the music code, it's a pretty isolated corner ;) did it because the music was WRONG compared to dos ttd :D
22:10:57 <TrueBrain> we all started here because something was WRONG WRONG WRONG :D
22:11:10 <TrueBrain> mine was: how do you mean, 256x256 is the ONLY POSSIBLE size?!
22:11:13 <nielsm> 1500 lines of new code to get a few little nostalgia details right
22:11:22 <planetmaker_> actually... I started here because I was lazy. Not because things were wrong :)
22:11:42 * LordAro 's was "someone removed the old AI? wtf, they should put it back"
22:11:59 <LordAro> i didn't win that one
22:12:10 <planetmaker_> :| Partially you did
22:12:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really start, i'm too lazy for even that :p
22:12:33 <TrueBrain> LordAro: oh, you were THAT GUY?! :P
22:12:40 <planetmaker_> I needed fast bridge building (keyboard shortcut) for all kind of bridges. And that's where it started :)
22:12:45 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i was one of them, yes :p
22:13:07 <TrueBrain> so happy that cheating ass is gone (oldAI)
22:13:15 <TrueBrain> that was such a piece of crap in the code base
22:13:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but the reason i came into this channel was that the old PBS was broken
22:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> in particular, when you had 2 trains waiting to enter the same bit of station from either side, they got stuck, and when you sent one of them through with "ignore signal", the other one would also start, crashing in the middle
22:18:56 <TrueBrain> I am off too; night!
22:20:19 <andythenorth> yay PR approved :)
22:32:18 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, so glad we removed that feature
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23:00:40 <peter1138> Hmm, our VS project files are a bit annoying
23:01:09 <peter1138> I can never easily find source files with the virtual hierarchy that's there.
23:03:10 <peter1138> Ah, there's a folder view you can use.
23:03:25 <Wolf01> I'm wasted, I'll go to bed and play spider
23:05:28 * peter1138 finally gets around to binding ^W to the usual function.
23:08:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever used that
23:27:05 <peter1138> Heh, no, close window.
23:27:10 <peter1138> Cos it's not a shell
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