IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-05-14
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00:10:48 <peter1138> ^ Best game-play ever.
00:11:59 <LordAro> those graphics look weird
00:35:14 <snail_UES_> peter1138: 64 railtypes? how did you manage that? :p
01:10:36 <Eddi|zuHause> getting them in that list is not the difficult part :p
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07:57:08 <peter1138> Oh dear, there actually *is* a railtype for removed rails...
08:00:21 <peter1138> And why does anyone need "Modern high-speed mainline, crushed stone ballast, concrete ties, electrified (200 km/h)" and "... (220 km/h)"?
08:09:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there is also a "planning track"
08:13:51 <V453000> peter1138: no PURR, 0/10
08:14:23 <V453000> also I have NO idea what should I use from that list :D
08:14:52 <V453000> I was also surprised to see RAWR in the background :)
08:15:43 <V453000> also I guess if you try to build them it's a serious recognizing challenge to see which one is which
08:18:25 <peter1138> I think it ran out of types ;(
08:23:20 <V453000> at least everyone would probably use PURR from this list because it's most visible :P
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08:52:14 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, also, I did actually do it. Extended the map array :p
08:52:31 <peter1138> Although for some reason bridges don't build correctly. Hmm.
08:59:21 <LordAro> i thought extending thrme map array was supposed to be difficult?
09:03:40 <peter1138> No, extending the map array is piss easy.
09:03:59 <peter1138> It's just not done without a very good reason.
09:04:28 <peter1138> On the other hand, computers have moved along quite a bit in 10 years.
09:05:00 <peter1138> Memory-wise at least.
09:05:08 <__ln__> in 10 years, but not in the latest 10 years
09:08:03 <peter1138> LordAro, might be better to add 2 uint8s rather than 1 uint16 though.
09:08:45 <peter1138> Also, UINT64_MAX is actually valid, despite being the marker for invalid :S.
09:08:54 <peter1138> uint64 bitmasks not fun.
09:09:06 <peter1138> Probably wants a different way of handling that.
09:10:46 <peter1138> LordAro, but I ran out of railtypes when I loaded them all!!!111
09:12:58 <LordAro> why not just make it an array of 16 uint8s? or 2 uint64s?
09:13:10 <peter1138> LordAro, I'm not changing the existing array!
09:13:28 <peter1138> Just 2 * uint8 might make some things simpler.
09:13:42 <peter1138> But 1 * uint16 might be useful for something else. I dunno.
09:13:54 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe it should be 256 rail types.
09:14:14 <peter1138> And then when there are far too many for the user to pick, just blame the GRF authors.
09:14:26 <peter1138> (tbh, even 32 or 64 is too many, imho)
09:14:40 <peter1138> (and that is humble, not honest)
09:34:26 <SpComb> need scrollable dropdowns
09:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> dropdowns should not be longer than 7 entries without some kind of separators or other groupings
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09:49:07 <V453000> that makes a bunch of sense Eddi|zuHause :)
09:57:34 <peter1138> SpComb, we have scrollable dropdowns.
09:57:48 <peter1138> But it's still a horrible UI when there's that many.
09:58:23 <peter1138> And when you have multiple types that are the same but by different authors so they're not actually the same.
09:59:04 <peter1138> Hmm, if it's limited to 63 types then the invalid marker becomes distinct again.
09:59:17 <peter1138> But OMG! Artificial limits!
10:16:23 <peter1138> It's funny how tt-forums now has the smallest font ever used on a website, as all other sites have increased font size...
10:17:00 <peter1138> And it's not even computer screens that have increased in resolution (unless you go 4K)
10:29:18 <orudge> [20:56:55] <TrueBrain> orudge: I know we asked this 10 years too, but how many cookies do we have to give for patchpacks to get their own subforum? Is that possible? <-- I don't recall anybody asking for any recently, but it can potentially be done, yes. (People have tended to ask for new forums for random 3rd party games that have a 3-post topic in Off-Topic, which tend not to happen. A
10:29:24 <orudge> general 'Patch Packs' forum or specific forums for individual patch packs could happen though.)
10:31:28 <peter1138> There's currently only JGR's Patch Pack.
10:31:49 <peter1138> And maybe he doesn't want it separate.
10:32:16 <peter1138> Dunno about Juanjo, doesn't seem to be an active thread.
10:32:57 <peter1138> Oh, cirdan is active too.
10:33:18 <peter1138> "Joker's Patch Pack" is the guy who flounced off the other day.
10:33:19 <orudge> Well, if it's worthwhile separating them out then we can, but don't want to create a new forum for it to end up with just 5 topic in it, we've got enough forums like that already ;)
10:33:49 <peter1138> Transport Empire turned out good, eh?
10:34:04 <peter1138> (There appears to be a mobile/web game with that name now)
10:35:15 <LordAro> peter1138: juanjo is thr one with the open PR, right?
10:35:36 <peter1138> LordAro, he is active in getting things into master, yes. Which is really good.
10:36:08 <peter1138> p1sim is kinda... what.
12:28:14 <peter1138> So should I do this?
12:29:04 <peter1138> I had a flexible bitmask class once. Hmm.
12:30:55 <peter1138> Ah forget that, the diff doesn't include new files, lol..
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13:40:21 <snail_UES_> why keep making jokes like that :p
13:41:05 <snail_UES_> seriously, 256 is an overkill, but many people would find it useful if we had 32
13:41:21 <snail_UES_> could this feature be misused? yes...
13:41:31 <snail_UES_> but that’s true of any feature
13:42:32 <peter1138> I ran out of types when I added a few railtype newgrfs when I had it at 64.
13:42:45 <peter1138> Obviously someone will want to do that ;(
13:43:18 <snail_UES_> yes, it’s a way people would misuse of this
13:43:41 <snail_UES_> but I don’t think it’s the number… I could make a senseless trackset even we had only 8 or 4
13:45:06 <peter1138> Your IRC client is doing something wrong with ' symbols.
13:45:14 <peter1138> I bet you use a mac :S
13:46:24 <peter1138> Btw, these are not jokes, they are real working patches.
13:46:29 <__ln__> ’wrong’ as in using the correct quotes?
13:46:38 <__ln__> instead of ASCII quotes
13:46:53 <peter1138> (Although the railtype bitmask is wrong for the 256 version)
13:46:58 <snail_UES_> if they’re real, why can’t we optimize the code and have them in trunk?
13:47:47 <peter1138> __ln__, hmm, strange. My ‘ and “ are correct, but ’ and ” are wrong.
13:48:12 <peter1138> But sorry, yes, it's my side, not snail_UES_'s
13:48:41 <snail_UES_> no idea my ‘ and “ were wrong
13:49:01 <peter1138> Forget about it :-)
13:59:02 <peter1138> assert(IsNormalRoad(t)); // XXX incomplete
14:24:08 <peter1138> Hmm, so NRT uses m4 for roadtype & tramtype.
14:24:45 <peter1138> With the extended array it could use m4 for roadtype and m9 for tramtype (m8 for railtype on level crossings)
14:25:09 <peter1138> That would get around the 15 limit.
14:27:08 <peter1138> Standard-size map uses 128KB more. Not much.
14:31:59 <LordAro> i feel like that's managable :p
14:32:11 <LordAro> how much are you extending it by? 16 bits?
14:33:29 <peter1138> I prepared an alternative version that adds 2 * uint8s.
14:34:02 <peter1138> Becuase there is "enough space" it means some mapaccessors don't need bit stuffing at all.
14:35:03 <peter1138> So GetRailType(t) becomes "return (RailType)_me[t].m8;"
14:36:04 <peter1138> Probably some other limits could be increased as well.
14:36:10 <peter1138> Industry tile, house tile...
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15:55:22 <peter1138> Hmm, JGRPP doesn't increase the map array.
15:55:42 <peter1138> I guess it doesn't have NRT though.
15:56:29 <peter1138> Ah yeah, it just borrows an extra bit in the map array to go to 32 railtypes. Same bit I did :p
15:57:40 <peter1138> 2 railtypes on 1 tile will be possible.
15:57:50 <peter1138> For those awkard diagonal tiles.
16:10:41 <LordAro> can you have 4 roadtypes on a tile?
16:12:03 <V453000> omg 2 railtypes on 1 tile is so much bigger feature than 32 railtypes :D
16:19:07 <peter1138> V453000, i'm only considering the parallel diagonal case.
16:19:26 <peter1138> I believe someone had a patch for that anyway. May already be in master? :p
16:19:37 <V453000> you mean no junctions
16:20:06 <peter1138> That does make changing rail layout "interesting" though, if they're incompatible.
16:20:18 <peter1138> Hmm, well, not really, just the same as any other incompatible combo.
16:28:39 <peter1138> Hmm, wonder what else would benefit from map storage.
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16:53:21 <andythenorth> peter1138: you woke up early :P
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16:54:18 <peter1138> Hmm, normal time for me.
16:56:48 <andythenorth> peter1138: 255 or bust
17:06:08 <andythenorth> actually, 32 is enough for any sensible case
17:06:12 <andythenorth> 32 cargos is enough
17:06:46 <andythenorth> 64 should be plenty
17:13:30 <andythenorth> who could need more?
17:18:21 <peter1138> Well I ran out with 64 ;-)
17:18:48 <andythenorth> it's well beyond any kind of 80:20 limit
17:19:02 <andythenorth> probably covers everybody but the lunatic fringe
17:19:20 <andythenorth> anyone who asks for more is literally weird
17:19:37 <peter1138> 21:49 < frosch123> i would approve 64k railtypes :)
17:19:44 <peter1138> Sounds like a challenge :-)
17:20:10 <andythenorth> I can make a railtype grf generator
17:20:23 <andythenorth> I already generate, e.g. trains and boats :P
17:20:45 <andythenorth> 4 types of ground
17:20:52 <andythenorth> 4 types of sleepers
17:21:06 <andythenorth> 4 'rustiness' states
17:21:23 <andythenorth> 4 electrification types
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17:22:04 <andythenorth> hmm no, it's getting hard :P
17:23:03 <peter1138> GetRandomBits() could be improved.
17:23:54 <peter1138> We could use the original bits to make map-persistent random data. Not that anything probably uses it.
17:24:14 <andythenorth> LordAro: found some more
17:24:21 <andythenorth> 2 states of allow crossings or not
17:24:42 <peter1138> I found at least one XXX in NRT, too.
17:26:19 <LordAro> andythenorth: well that's 11 bits
17:26:34 <LordAro> i think only 4 speed limits is pretty low :p
17:26:47 <peter1138> Did you see the list...
17:27:04 <andythenorth> also 3rd rail is 2 bits
17:27:10 <peter1138> "Modern high-speed mainline, crushed stone ballast, concrete ties, electrified (200 km/h)" and "... (220 km/h)"
17:27:39 <nielsm> why not unify road and rail entirely? :D
17:27:53 <andythenorth> because I told my 8 yr old it can't be done
17:27:57 <andythenorth> and I don't want to be wrong :P
17:30:44 <peter1138> Basically trams are an abomination.
17:31:26 <peter1138> I think it's way too late to consider trying to merge road and rail.
17:33:15 <peter1138> Different properties, different behaviours.
17:33:47 * andythenorth makes double-track canals
17:34:42 <andythenorth> not wetrail hax :P
17:36:42 <peter1138> Wasn't someone using NRT to make wetroads?
17:36:49 <peter1138> I'm sure I saw a pic.
17:38:26 <peter1138> Apart from docks being shitty, you can do that with normal canal anyway, I guess.
17:40:27 <peter1138> Hmm, well, amphibious road vehicle is slightly different and... hmm..
17:45:22 <peter1138> Great for gameplay :p
17:45:35 <peter1138> Is 16 rail types bad for gameplay?
17:46:06 <andythenorth> too many, or not enough
18:06:37 <LANJesus> i'd say anything more than 5 is annoying
18:06:46 <LANJesus> especially if they're mutually exclusive
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18:58:15 <andythenorth> pikka's AI is planting trees :P
19:03:39 <peter1138> Improving its rating?
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19:11:23 <Wolf01> They tell me that all the time
19:12:04 <peter1138> North American Track Set : v1.0.1
19:12:28 <peter1138> Has 29 GRF parameters...
19:12:58 <andythenorth> and the UI for parameters is so nice too :)
19:13:11 <peter1138> You can set max speed, cost, and introduction year for each time.
19:13:56 <peter1138> There is Very Low Speed, Low Speed, Medium Speed, High Speed, Very High Speed, Low Speed Narrow, High Speed Narrow...
19:14:15 <LordAro> just make a GRF that does everything
19:14:56 <peter1138> I bet there'd be more, but it uses all 16 rail types.
19:17:06 <Wolf01> That's something I won't be able to use at all... I usually enable 3-6 railtypes
19:17:33 <peter1138> Is it me or is it only GRF authors demanding more types?
19:17:43 <peter1138> Do players actually use them all?
19:23:46 <peter1138> andythenorth, it'll "solve" the NRT problem too ;p
19:24:34 <andythenorth> does NRT get 32 or 64 per type?
19:26:12 <LordAro> peter1138: now do the bitset version :p
19:26:45 <peter1138> andythenorth, just 1 I reckon.
19:32:10 <peter1138> Of course, all the commands could do with reshuffling :S
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19:41:22 <peter1138> Hmm, I didn't break it, at least.
19:43:48 <peter1138> Can't test beyond the 'old' limit cos there aren't enough NRT sets yet.
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20:22:17 <Gwyd> I'm using Quast65's tutorial, but it doesn't explain how all the bits work
20:23:32 <Gwyd> Wait nvm I've just not been looking hard enough
20:26:41 <andythenorth> what's it supposed to be? o_O
20:35:48 <TrueBrain> nice work on PRs LordAro :)
20:35:52 <Gwyd> Even on closer inspection I can't find anything deeply explaining the purpose of every byte
20:36:38 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i should fix my own :)
20:37:09 <peter1138> I got distracted :(
20:37:18 <peter1138> But 64 road/tram types isn't enough?
20:37:52 <andythenorth> 32 road, 32 tram?
20:39:13 <Gwyd> If you can find a use case for each simultaneously I will be astounded
20:40:00 <peter1138> Apparently GRF authors can!
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20:40:09 <andythenorth> 64 each is plenty
20:40:25 <peter1138> That's what I said about 16.
20:40:44 <Gwyd> Well that's what railtypes tend to deal with
20:41:04 <andythenorth> most of the game is about being able to make mods for the game eh :P
20:41:16 <andythenorth> does anyone actually play it, except me? o_O
20:41:31 <peter1138> So who wants to convince the other devs that extending the map array is okay? :p
20:41:41 <frosch123> peter1138: i see potential for 2 tram type s:p
20:41:53 <frosch123> imho tramtypes are entirely useless
20:41:58 <peter1138> There's already a NewGRF with 6.
20:42:19 <frosch123> i only saw roadtypes
20:42:38 <frosch123> wasn't that about trolley busses?
20:43:42 <peter1138> Rough, Basic and Modern, in plain and electrified styles.
20:44:14 <frosch123> anyway, i liked that idea of an additional indirectional table
20:44:39 <frosch123> 256 or 64k combinations of road/tram/rail/ground/whatever types
20:45:19 <peter1138> It would still be limited to 16 for rail types.
20:46:18 <peter1138> Unless you mean something more involved than I was thinking.
20:46:37 <frosch123> i read you added m8 or m9 or something
20:47:21 <peter1138> Currently I just moved railtype to m8 and unmerged road/tram type from m4 to m4 + m9.
20:47:53 <peter1138> Using all 8 bits for now but only 64 types because of bitmasks.
20:48:11 <frosch123> i think we already use std::bitmask in some places
20:48:15 <frosch123> possibly industry types
20:49:05 <peter1138> I don't see it anywhere.
20:49:40 <frosch123> extern std::bitset<NUM_INDUSTRYTYPES> _displayed_industries; <- ok, there is exacly one usage :p
20:50:19 <frosch123> yeah, sorry, i do not use it often enough to remember
20:50:49 <peter1138> If the map is extended, there's no much point to having indirection.
20:51:13 <peter1138> If the map isn't extended, then indirection (for rail types) gives you strange other limits
20:51:26 <peter1138> Less pronounced for road/tram due to it being 8 bits.
20:51:49 <frosch123> i did not follow nrt for a year, but last year it was all about visual differences like objects/stations, which did not care whether there was road or tram on top
20:51:49 <peter1138> I saw JGRPP just borrows a bit to get to 32 rail types.
20:52:25 <peter1138> I don't know how it works if you have electrified road and electrified tram, if that's possible.
20:52:48 <peter1138> Well, type wise it's meaningless, just graphical.
20:53:35 <frosch123> iirc at some point andy drew separate road catenary sprites, and they were drawn over each other. no idea whether that was finished/implemented though
20:54:45 <frosch123> but ok, with more bits indirection can be postponed
20:55:46 <peter1138> Well, there's another thing, managing the indirection list not necessarily simple, if it can change during game.
20:56:25 <peter1138> Not impossible just more code to be written.
20:56:40 <andythenorth> road has separate catenary sprites
20:57:36 <frosch123> updatnig the list will likely desync in rare cases :) just like group and infra statistics still desync every now and then in unknown ways
21:05:57 <peter1138> Well, adding it simplish. Removing either needs a counter or a full map scan on every removal. Not nice.
21:06:07 <peter1138> Or if it's static, you gain nothing for railtypes
21:06:19 <peter1138> But you do gain slightly for road/tramtypes.
21:06:32 <peter1138> I think it's easier to just extend the array ;)
21:08:14 <frosch123> since 32bpp blitter is default and we deprecate 32bit builds, map size is hardly noticeable
21:08:39 <frosch123> if the arrays are mostly zero, they also do not affect multiplayer join times
21:08:55 <peter1138> Hmm, hadn't considered size.
21:09:00 <peter1138> Compressed size that is.
21:09:28 <peter1138> We can just leave it all as is. What do authors know? :D
21:10:59 <frosch123> was there a "devs dictate grf author what to do" vs "grf authors dictate devs what to do" discussion? :p
21:11:23 <frosch123> i mostly skipped it :p
21:11:32 <andythenorth> it was somewhat more rational than your framing :)
21:13:18 <andythenorth> snail has a good perspective on it
21:13:21 <peter1138> No but we did explain why splitting "electrification type" off from railtype was not a feasible route and didn't gain anythhing.
21:13:40 <andythenorth> but I might have driven KK away with my 'but I need 33' comment in the thread
21:13:54 * andythenorth wrecking the community since 2008
21:14:27 <frosch123> peter1138: haha, i think that was the first thing i removed from nrt when i joined :)
21:15:19 <andythenorth> if only I'd carried on my 'catenary' patch....
21:15:34 <peter1138> Don't think I was paying attention to ottd then :)
21:17:35 <frosch123> now that LA is active, i can focus on bananas at least
21:27:22 <andythenorth> peter1138: it was a flag for catenary on/off on tramways :P
21:27:28 <andythenorth> which is all I wanted anyway :P
21:39:08 <peter1138> Hmm, is out of date film useful for anyone? :P
21:41:20 <nielsm> photographic film? yes
21:41:46 <nielsm> sell it as "lomo" and you can get higher price than new stock
21:41:59 <nielsm> (only slightly joking)
21:46:04 <peter1138> this->railtypes != RAILTYPES_NONE
21:46:11 <peter1138> Hmm, wonder how to convert that to bitset style.
22:15:40 <peter1138> It looks like we load avail_railtypes from savegames for very old versions.
22:16:19 <peter1138> However, it's always recaculated anyway.
22:16:54 <Wolf01> Maybe it wasn't at that time
22:18:22 <peter1138> It predates railtypes, heh.
22:20:04 <Wolf01> Also, win10 1803, wow features, such glazed, much fast
22:20:58 <Wolf01> It was crying to install the update
22:22:18 <peter1138> Hmm, commit a4e045a3fbb04
22:22:32 <peter1138> "remove the need for saving some vehicle variables"
22:22:56 <peter1138> Looks like it actually slipped in there, cos it's not a vehicle variable, and nothing else in that commit touches that one.
22:42:35 <peter1138> Hmm, why was I converting it to a bitset? :p
22:44:36 <peter1138> I'm concerned that HasBit(bitset, f) still works somehow.
22:44:53 <peter1138> More likely it's undefined, but it doesn't error.
22:45:12 <LordAro> overloaded operators? HasBit is templated, iirc
22:46:46 <peter1138> Hmm, I see, it'll be comparing but at the wrong level. It'll work but be doing more than it needs to.
22:52:59 <peter1138> Okay, manually overrode HasBit and found a load of warnings
22:55:58 <peter1138> I could just override HasBit to work.
23:09:47 <GT> I am switching to git, having used svn and hg for openttd before. One question: I succeeded in cloning the repo, and git branch shows me the master. But according to https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/branches there should also be a release/1.8 branch. I did a git fetch, but branch shows up. How can I get a remote branch?
23:10:24 <GT> *no branch shows up obviously
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23:15:09 <peter1138> git checkout release/1.8 should do it.
23:15:31 <LordAro> git branch -a to show remote branches
23:16:22 <peter1138> git checkout -b release/1.8 "origin"/release/1.8 (where "origin" is the name of the github repo)
23:17:27 <LordAro> does the first not work? i'd expect it to
23:18:03 <peter1138> Hmm, OpenTTD 1.8.0~1
23:19:05 <peter1138> It's possible that git doesn't actually like branches with / in?
23:19:23 <peter1138> error: pathspec 'release/1.8' did not match any file(s) known to git.
23:23:11 <GT> git branch -a does indeed show the remotes/origin/release/x.x branches
23:24:26 <peter1138> Anyway, there's also tags. If you actually want to work with the 1.8 release, you might just want to checkout 1.8.0
23:25:11 <peter1138> (but less useful for making local changes)
23:25:18 <GT> :Branch 'release/1.8' set up to track remote branch 'release/1.8' from 'origin'.
23:25:18 <GT> Switched to a new branch 'release/1.8'
23:25:47 <GT> seems to work if the checkout is done, the branch is listed
23:25:56 <peter1138> Because the branch is now local.
23:26:44 <GT> Thank, I expected the fetch to make it available locally, but obviously the checkout is needed
23:29:03 <peter1138> Oh, ETS 2 Italia is vaguely reduced... Hmm...
23:30:12 <peter1138> Hmm, it's more reduced as a bundle with just that in it :p
23:42:39 <peter1138> I wonder how the range testing of std::bitset affects performance. Not enough to profile it :p
23:45:18 <glx> <peter1138> Hmm, it's more reduced as a bundle with just that in it :p <-- usual, and the bundle is indirectly findable
23:46:11 <glx> probably reduced because 1.31 is just released
23:48:19 <glx> indeed indirect, ets2 page -> italia dlc page -> bundle page
23:48:23 <peter1138> Ok, trying to play with keyboard was a bad idea.
23:48:42 <peter1138> Managing to roll my truck on a roundabout outside the garagea :p
23:49:19 <glx> I used gamepad then bought a g27
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