IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-05-05
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08:27:03 <peter1138> Hmm, I think it's not even needed.
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08:47:08 <V453000> I think I can do a weird mix of stuff to get my thing through
08:47:38 <V453000> possibly even without engine-wagon bulltrash
08:48:02 <V453000> engine-wagon thing still :)
08:50:33 <V453000> andythenorth: how could I make something like a train depot replica in a website? :D Could python do that?
08:50:55 <V453000> you would drag&drop images behind each other with snapping to get a train and see it's numbers
08:51:00 <V453000> like a train configurator
09:02:15 <andythenorth> V453000: javascript
09:02:42 <V453000> can't say I'm too enthusiastic to try that again :D
09:02:51 <V453000> but eh what could possibly go wrong
09:03:09 <V453000> was kind of naively hoping the almighty snake could do it
09:05:18 <andythenorth> is it docs, or a configurator that generates a grf?
09:07:07 <andythenorth> web browsers don't run snake
09:07:09 <andythenorth> and Flash is dead
09:07:21 <andythenorth> so your choices are JS, or Unity
09:07:28 <andythenorth> and Unity is evil and full of evil
09:07:50 <V453000> I'll probably try JS then at some point
09:08:36 <andythenorth> it's a total PITA to write JS though
09:09:10 <V453000> that's the general consesus that I got so far and from writing basic Ae expressions I agree from the basic syntax thing
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09:31:02 <andythenorth> V453000: I'm bored
09:34:15 <andythenorth> and I wrecked a ship grf
09:34:26 <andythenorth> bored of drawing trains and ships
09:34:29 <andythenorth> wreck something else?
09:41:49 <andythenorth> draw tank car \ / views
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10:09:46 <Wolf01> While having your trains station automatically named "Satan's Anal Railways" is mildly funny, it's a bit confusing and not very family friendly. <- fine, we managed to autogenerate city names like this too :D
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11:09:26 <TrueBrain> didn't know we were on a first-name-basis V453000
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11:19:37 <TrueBrain> you said anus .. not me :P
11:21:46 <V453000> I was just quoting Wolf :P
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12:25:51 <andythenorth> quite like that behaviour
12:39:56 <V453000> holy shit I completely forgot how recolour sprites work :D
12:40:06 <V453000> staring at rainbow slug code for last 20 mins
12:44:02 <andythenorth> how do they work?
12:44:14 * andythenorth just uses code from frosch
12:44:17 <andythenorth> probably just a remap?
12:44:34 <V453000> I also have code from frosch :D
12:46:18 <V453000> it worked on first try :D
12:46:28 <V453000> colour_mapping: palette_2cc(COLOUR_RED,COLOUR_RED);
12:46:44 <V453000> not a custom one but I don't need that yet
12:48:05 <V453000> this weird shit actually moves in the parameter things :D param[01]+16
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13:07:23 <V453000> frosch123: do you have a minute? :) I've finally written down 2 engines as the booster parts, and I want to try to do maximum speed = some_speed * count_veh_id / num_vehs_in_consist ... how would I write a switch like this?
13:07:37 <V453000> do I need to go through every single case of count_veh_id?
13:08:48 <V453000> or is there some of the store_temp magic to do it more elegantly?
13:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you just can write the formula down, where you usually would put your variable, and one single empty "return;" statement
13:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that will be interpreted as "return the value of this formula"
13:09:52 <V453000> so literally speed: return 100 * count_veh_id / num_vehs_in_consist; in the graphics block?
13:10:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it might also work in the graphics block
13:11:34 <V453000> I guess in the graphics block it doesn't know what to look for
13:11:42 <V453000> like the FEAT_TRAINS and SELF
13:11:47 <V453000> I did speed: return 100 * count_veh_id / num_vehs_in_consist;
13:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it probably assumes "SELF" at that point
13:12:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and FEAT_TRAINS is implied because you're in a graphics block
13:13:00 <V453000> nmlc ERROR: "PART.nml", line 485: 'count_veh_id' is a function and should be called using the function call syntax.
13:13:04 <V453000> it doesn't enjoy that
13:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> count_veh_id(number)
13:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> number is the ID that you want to count
13:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> like count_veh_id(vehicle_blah)
13:14:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle name should work
13:14:19 <V453000> used number ID, seems to have compiled
13:15:05 <V453000> it's doing something!
13:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you have "item(vehicle_blah)", then using "vehicle_blah" should work in the context where a vehicle ID is asked for
13:16:54 <V453000> :DDD I didn't realize that If I divide by number of wagons then the speed never increases if I only use speed parts :D
13:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> so you don't have to do "item(vehicle_blah, 25)" to know you have to put "25" in there
13:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you divide by an integer number, you actually can only decrease :p
13:18:09 <V453000> well yeah but speed is added per each unit added
13:18:19 <V453000> but the efficiency of units is divided by their count, so obviously... :
13:18:40 <V453000> well I already divided their count by another number :)
13:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably meant something like "the first wagon adds 1, the second 1/2, the third 1/3, ..."
13:19:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that adds up to aroud log(n)
13:19:37 <V453000> can I use such function in nml?
13:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> look up "harmonic numbers"
13:20:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure NFO covers log :ü
13:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd find it surprising if it did :p
13:21:09 <V453000> well ok then I just need find some other way how to write that
13:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone think i should finally switch my clock forward 1h?
13:21:42 <V453000> maybe I don't even need it though
13:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could also do "the first wagon adds 1, the second 1/2, the third 1/4, ..."
13:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that way you have a cap on 2 units for an infinitely long train
13:23:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but you don't need any fancy log functions
13:23:39 <V453000> but how would you calculate the thing you just said or 1, 1/2, 1/3
13:24:07 <V453000> I need the total value but I can't iterate through the result of the count_vehid?
13:25:51 <V453000> :D that part I kind of understand
13:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you'd have to bring 1-2^(-n) into a form which is suitible for integer division
13:33:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so 1-1/2^n -> (2^n-1)/2^n
13:33:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and 2^n is just 1<<n
13:35:12 <__ln__> V453000: yes, it's basic rocket science
13:35:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it's basic advanced maths :p
13:36:22 <V453000> wait I can put ^n into NML syntax? :d
13:38:57 <V453000> I did speed: return (100*(2^count_veh_id(150)-1))/2^(num_vehs_in_consist-2);
13:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> or does it have real ^?
13:39:12 <V453000> it compiled but it does weird shit
13:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably bitwise xor
13:39:49 <V453000> well the result for count_veh_id worked for 1 and 2 :D then it went mad
13:40:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's not ging to be helfpful :p
13:41:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that is a bitshift
13:41:43 <V453000> that's something I heard in factorio combinators :D doesn't mean I have idea what it does
13:41:45 <Eddi|zuHause> 1<<0 is 1, 1<<1 is binary "10", so 2
13:41:50 <V453000> oh is it like a /2 /4 /8 thing?
13:43:35 <Eddi|zuHause> mind you that formula will break for very long trains
13:43:58 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your "100*"
13:45:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but basically: 2^n uses n bits, in a 32-bit calculation you can thus have a maximum of 32 wagons before it breaks. minus 1 for every bit that your "100" uses
13:46:14 <Eddi|zuHause> means this formula works for your proof of concept, but you should probably get a formula that is a bit less demanding
13:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> or go through floating point maths
13:46:45 <V453000> well the concept already seems to work so I guess I should focus on getting something that counts properly now
13:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember if NML can convert float/integer
13:48:20 <V453000> I'll try first if the simple formula that I already have works fine
13:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it would probably be a desync hazard if allowed
13:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the other option would be if you made a "lookup table", i.e. a switch with every possible n->f(n) mapping
13:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause> at that point it would be useful again if NML implemented "procedure calls"
13:56:11 <frosch123> just go for an easier formula
13:56:24 <frosch123> exponential stuff is too extreme
13:56:41 <andythenorth> so what's left on NRT?
13:57:42 <Wolf01> Rebase, merge the town roads branch (and change the roadtype algorythm), ship it
13:57:59 <frosch123> V453000: try something like (10+count_veh_id(veh_booster)) / (3+count_veh_id(veh_booster)
13:58:22 <frosch123> that gives a big effect to few booster vehicles, and little effect to many
13:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the problem is to calculate sum(...) without iterating
14:00:16 <Wolf01> andythenorth: also remove the check for electrification in converting town roads, so one could convert them back to normal road, they said there is no such thing as griefing inf OTTD, so let them do it
14:03:16 <V453000> the current thing might actually work well enough once I start adding other parts
14:03:18 <V453000> :) return 100 * count_veh_id(150) / ((num_vehs_in_consist-2) /2);
14:03:21 <V453000> thanks frosch123 ,I'll save it
14:04:11 <V453000> ok, onwards to other parts, those should be easy now :)
14:10:14 <frosch123> by changing the "/2" you control the effect when adding very many vehicles, by adjusting the 10 and 3 you change the curve for few vehicles
14:11:34 <V453000> I understand, thank you :)
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14:16:12 <frosch123> V453000: also for your web-configurator for trains, i would suggest to use a spreadsheed application
14:16:34 <frosch123> allow people ending A/B/C/D into the cells of a row to define the wagons
14:16:41 <frosch123> then make the spreadsheet count the letters
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14:21:08 <andythenorth> so Iron Horse and Sam can't be shipped, too wrecked
14:21:14 <andythenorth> maybe I should wreck FIRS now
14:28:18 <V453000> frosch123: already have a google spreadsheet for that :P
15:09:29 * Mazur plays factorio as well, now.
15:18:41 <V453000> that's not too different :P
15:19:50 <peter1138> Oh, Transport Fever is on sale.
15:20:47 <V453000> for train sim people I guess it's nice
15:29:44 <nielsm> the main attraction of train fever, to me, is the ability to build realistic track layouts
15:29:56 <nielsm> and being constrained into it
15:30:27 <nielsm> relatively, compared to transport tycoon
15:30:43 <Wolf01> You build like TT without sharp angles
15:31:29 <V453000> factorio has realistic trains in that case :P
15:31:38 <nielsm> and layouts that can actually support high speeds take up significantly more space
15:31:41 <Wolf01> Lacks bridges and tunnels
15:31:42 <nielsm> requires more planning imo
15:32:13 <Wolf01> Now you have cliffs and you can add bridges and tunnels
15:34:49 <V453000> WHAT WAS IT :D that defines wagons vs. engines?
15:34:58 <V453000> I thought it would be TE coefficient
15:37:23 <andythenorth> V453000: do \ / views matter at all? :P
15:37:43 <V453000> I'd say those are more important than | -
15:37:56 <V453000> I think generall you build diagonals less, and stations etc
15:38:05 <V453000> but side views are for depots so they catch up there
15:41:20 <andythenorth> basically a \ / view is just blobs
15:44:21 <andythenorth> I should have drawn the \ / views first, not – :P
15:44:32 <andythenorth> nothing from the – view fits or makes sense in \ /
15:45:03 <V453000> well I must admit I always started with /
15:45:20 <andythenorth> these Horse sprites are all bollocks now
15:45:33 <andythenorth> I used to do \ / views first
15:46:39 <andythenorth> it's kind of a challenge :P
15:46:57 <andythenorth> not sure I can make 6 different mail cars
15:47:03 <andythenorth> there aren't enough pixels in \ / view
15:48:08 <andythenorth> or call the whole thing off :P
15:48:53 <andythenorth> pikka is doing new Horse anyway
15:56:42 <V453000> but I can attach the vehicle to the train no problem
15:56:51 <V453000> and when I build the next ones, they work fine
15:58:07 <V453000> because without the leading engine the consist is -1
16:00:25 <V453000> still weird though why it fails only on the first attempt
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17:20:24 <andythenorth> delete all trains
17:34:03 <nielsm> 1960-2006, map (mostly) filled
17:34:40 <nielsm> ffwd almost all the time
17:41:31 <frosch123> V453000: yes, B4 is speed
17:41:54 <frosch123> the 8A part is the current order, and the B2 part is the vehicle-stopped-manually state
17:42:12 <frosch123> "loading/unloading" is a type of current order
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17:45:49 <frosch123> V453000: i guess the switches only work for the front engine, so possibly using PARENT instead of SELF is better
17:53:03 <V453000> that's weird, it's already used on the front engine so SELF should not matter ... tested with PARENT and it seems to do the same thing
17:53:25 <V453000> when the train stops at a signal, something is happening, but the running cost is weirdly blinking between smoe two values
17:55:19 <V453000> it kind of works, but the train alternates between the 500 and 250 in those switches in the link when stopped at a signal, most of the time it's at the 250 which is strange
17:56:50 <V453000> using 0..1 in the most expensive mode helps
17:57:30 <frosch123> hmm, i thought we fixed that :p
17:58:17 <frosch123> it used to be the case that waiting vehicles would accelerate and only when they progresses far enough to move a step, they would notice the red signal and stop, and restart accelerating again
17:58:25 <frosch123> maybe it's still like that :p
18:00:16 <V453000> I need to do 0..7, seems to work now
18:00:49 <V453000> hmm still not perfect
18:03:46 <V453000> I'll say that to the police next time I see them that 16kmh means stopped :P
18:09:51 <andythenorth> has anyone ever tried rendering sprites? o_O
18:11:03 <frosch123> what does that mean?
18:12:59 <andythenorth> means I'm bored of trying to draw tube shapes :P
18:13:33 <frosch123> did you try duping your front views into zephyris' tool?
18:13:33 <andythenorth> FISH was based on rendered ships, but the forced scale was all wrong :)
18:13:40 <andythenorth> hmm that's an idea
18:13:54 <andythenorth> presumably it just does a transform on them :P
18:19:00 <andythenorth> it's a nice tool, doesn't get me good results though :)
18:21:59 <nielsm> for rendering sprites in TT scale from 3D/vector art, and having it look reasonable, I think you'd need a kind of hinting similar to what truetype fonts do
18:22:40 <nielsm> to basically prioritize features
18:24:39 <peter1138> render for 2x or 4x :p
18:25:10 <V453000> for the player, is there any visible difference between increasing engine running cost or wagon running cost?
18:27:54 <nielsm> afaik all the financials for the train are accounted on the front engine, so there wouldn't be
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20:10:26 <andythenorth> peter1138: such livery UI? o_O
20:10:32 <andythenorth> or is it all sunshine today?
20:11:40 <peter1138> But yeah, guess I'd forgotten that :p
20:11:51 <peter1138> But that resize issue
20:18:54 <andythenorth> 45 million Brits probably having a BBQ today
20:19:14 <peter1138> Contributing to global warming.
21:17:27 <peter1138> Widgets, eh. Are they magic?
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21:48:49 <frosch123> any opinions on allowing non-english project descriptions and/or reviews on bananas2?
21:49:24 <andythenorth> what does Steam do? o_O`
21:49:45 <frosch123> would korean/russian grf authors want to post korean/russian descriptions and read reviews?
21:50:07 <frosch123> sometimes you read chinese stuff on steam, when there is no english
21:51:52 <frosch123> reviews seem to have a language
21:52:35 <frosch123> but my system is configured to english
21:52:44 <glx> reviews can be in any language
21:52:44 <frosch123> so, not sure whether it would show me other languages
21:53:05 <glx> descriptions also can be translated
21:53:51 <frosch123> ok, let's allow reviews with languages
21:54:00 <frosch123> but i think translated descriptions would be a mess :p
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23:51:12 <ahles> He guys, I recently found back my old hobby again. And i was looking at the multiplayer function, can anybody help me with it as i'm not seeing any connectinos
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