IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-04-29
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00:07:37 <frosch123> i guess just buying more vps is cheapest option when current server is overloaded
00:11:18 <frosch123> @calc 52 * 20 * 12*4 * 1.604/60
00:11:42 <frosch123> @calc 52 * 20 * 12*4 * 0.106/60
00:12:32 <frosch123> ovh offers cpu power for 1/3 the price of aws
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00:13:03 <frosch123> with more ram and network bandwidth
00:14:37 <peter1138> Hmm, I guess the scrolling patch makes OpenTTD playable in VR desktops too :p
00:15:05 <peter1138> Mind you would still be easier to just use the mouse.
00:16:06 <frosch123> people always wanted to drive inside their own trains
00:16:26 <peter1138> Yeah. There's a new game for that. Rolling Line.
00:23:36 <nielsm> hmm, if the player switches to an empty music set, playback stops
00:23:49 <nielsm> if the player then switches to a non-empty music set, playback does not resume
00:24:10 <nielsm> but there isn't any way to know whether playback was stopped because player switched to empty music set, or because player pushed the stop button
00:24:34 <nielsm> would be it okay to assume that playback always should start if the player switches away from an empty set?
00:25:17 <nielsm> I think it's what I'd personally want most of the time
00:25:48 <frosch123> i think there is some magic about the intro gui always playing the same song
00:26:26 <nielsm> actually, if you stop the music, exit the game, and start again, you get no music on the title screen
00:27:19 <nielsm> same if you switch to NoMusic in game options from title screen, closes game options, opens again, then selects a different music set
00:29:59 <nielsm> unrelated, I can't get the Game Options window to properly redraw the music set description when I change set, is there a good overview of the various window invalidation functions somewhere?
00:38:43 <frosch123> nielsm: SetDirty probably
00:39:26 <nielsm> yes see, I am in fact calling InvalidateWindowData(WC_GAME_OPTIONS, 0); SetWindowDirty(WC_GAME_OPTIONS, 0);
00:39:33 <nielsm> and it does just about nothing
00:40:13 <peter1138> The window also needs to implement logic to handle the invalidation.
00:40:57 <frosch123> nielsm: if you have "this", you do not need the window class stuff
00:41:21 <nielsm> I don't in this context
00:41:53 <frosch123> anyway the old dropdown did InvalidateData
00:41:57 <nielsm> since the ChangeMusicSet function I'm factoring code into fits best in music_gui.cpp, since it needs to call all the playlist management functions
00:44:06 <frosch123> nielsm: you need to call InvalidateWindowData(WC_GAME_OPTIONS, WN_GAME_OPTIONS_GAME_OPTIONS)
00:45:23 <nielsm> and pass gui_scope=true to it too, I think
00:57:33 <peter1138> TrueBrain, hehe, _realtime_tick was implemented by... you ;)
00:58:08 <nielsm> the answer to "what idiot wrote this terrible code?" is always "myself"
01:00:59 <peter1138> Back in the days of VARDEF...
01:01:48 <glx> ok ICU55 is not compilable with vs2015 and above it seems
01:02:18 <glx> oh when we had globals everywhere peter1138 ?
02:01:28 <peter1138> TrueBrain, hmm, git commit 60f0610a851 is strange, did moving that equation make a big CPU difference I wonder?
03:08:55 <peter1138> Well shit, how is that happen. I better go to bed.
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03:29:42 <Thedarkb1-X40> Has anyone ever tried a hub and spoke style network?
04:03:18 <Eddi|zuHause> a spooky network?
04:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i had that
04:03:59 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i think it's probably a terrible idea
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07:52:09 <Rubidium> woopsie... forgot that my MIPS QEMU was still in temp when I shut my computer down yesterday :(
07:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you... shut down your computer?
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08:03:04 <Rubidium> ah well, strgen resulted in the same files so it should (tm) work fine
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08:55:10 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 53 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Pikka> at that point, why not just turn plane crashes off?
09:58:30 <andythenorth> my train set doesn't work
09:58:47 <andythenorth> I played a game to try it
10:01:17 <andythenorth> flippant answer: no super deltic (4,400hp proposed but never built)
10:01:54 <andythenorth> 'one obvious engine choice' works brilliantly, except when it gets monotonous
10:02:23 <andythenorth> for pax there are more options, electric, diesel, metro, railcar, etc
10:02:41 <andythenorth> but for freight, I do a lot of TL5, and it's all moguls or 37s
10:04:17 <Pikka> isn't that going to be the case even with "realistic" sets? I mean the more powerful engines are only use for higher TL + weight multiplier
10:04:28 <andythenorth> actually in my test game it's not all 37s, it just seems that way
10:04:32 <andythenorth> 13 out of 53 trains
10:04:53 <andythenorth> I think there's a difference between 'one obvious choice' and 'only one choice'
10:05:40 <Pikka> I'm not sure it's possible to not have an "obvious choice" in TTD
10:05:54 <andythenorth> it's possible to obscure the choice :)
10:06:13 <Pikka> "realistic" sets have an advantage in that players will choose vehicles for reasons other than game mechanics
10:07:30 <Pikka> whereas something like Pineapple Trains, where the vehicles are completely fictitious... it already has a low number of locos, and adding more would be pointless because there's just not enough gameplay niches
10:07:44 <Pikka> they'd either not be used, or they'd cause something else to not be used
10:08:02 <andythenorth> I keep poking at adding a 1200hp engine, below the 37
10:08:10 <andythenorth> but it would be under-powered for TL5
10:08:19 <andythenorth> maybe I just need another livery :P
10:08:39 <andythenorth> I banned engine liveries
10:09:11 <Pikka> Rats... nice for shorter trains, and little passenger trains @ 90mph, but not enough power for heavy freight. They work. :)
10:09:33 <Pikka> or double headed on heavy freight, doubleheading is always nice
10:09:35 <andythenorth> kind of got the OP 73 for that
10:10:01 <andythenorth> maybe I add a joker steam engine around 1950 or so
10:11:48 <andythenorth> doesn't align with the standard intro dates or model life
10:13:36 <Pikka> "generations" can get a bit stale
10:13:52 <andythenorth> especially when it's just another 37
10:14:15 <andythenorth> generations aren't a flawed concept
10:14:18 <Pikka> it's got six trains on a two-train line
10:14:26 <andythenorth> child A reports that Civil AI is a good competitor btw
10:14:35 <andythenorth> he says when it gets ships, it will be super hard and OP
10:14:48 <Pikka> I'd better add ships then
10:14:58 <andythenorth> hmm, is a garratt needed?
10:15:03 <Pikka> adding more variety to the train networks atm
10:15:04 <andythenorth> is it ever needed? :P
10:15:17 <Pikka> they're a bugger to draw though :P
10:15:26 <andythenorth> they are, I tried 2 for the african roster
10:16:16 <Pikka> unless you really abstracted the articulation, rather than trying to make them look realistic
10:16:57 <Pikka> still need a quintuplex for NA ;)
10:18:59 <andythenorth> I should make a nuts style set
10:20:27 <Pikka> you shouldn't, tbh. It's fun to play with concepts but I think the "model train" aspect is what makes TTD work. People like trains they recognise.
10:20:48 <andythenorth> but I keep finding pages about 'never built' UK trains
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10:21:16 <andythenorth> the problem with 5000hp diesels in 1970 is where to go in 2020 with progression
10:22:02 <Pikka> definitely, Q1s are great
10:22:09 <Pikka> and an original TT vehicle :P
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10:23:51 * andythenorth adds it to 'todo'
10:30:11 <andythenorth> hmm maybe FLHerne's suggestion for mixed traffic, round 3
10:40:44 <Wolf01> TrueBrain what are you doing with datacenters? :D "Repairs are ongoing after a massive power outage in the Amsterdam region that affected many services."
10:45:21 <Rubidium> sounds like a bad datacenter
10:47:47 <Rubidium> can't even spot a dip in Amsterdam's internet exchange throughput
10:48:40 <Wolf01> Telegram is down, they are working on it
10:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a power supply "hiccup" at DE-CIX a few weeks ago
10:49:44 <Eddi|zuHause> as in "the backup generators ran out of fuel after 2 hours"
10:50:02 <Alberth> Airport Schiphol had very long queues due to power outage
10:52:37 <Rubidium> why does checkin seems to be such an achilles heel for airports?
10:53:28 * Eddi|zuHause mumbles something about bombs and skyscrapers
10:54:46 <Wolf01> Now I'm doing something I didn't do for a LONG time, I'm reinstalling a WinXP laptop
10:55:24 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: lately I'm only hearing of huge delays on airports because the checkin system did not function for one reason or another
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10:55:35 <Wolf01> Couldn't wait to get all those wild viruses again
10:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: would you rather hear of delays because the air traffic control system didn't work?
10:58:43 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: nope, but ATC not functioning has way more safe guards than airports closing entry roads due to check-in not working and due to that people walking with suitcases on the high way...
10:59:43 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i think the checkin system is probably uniquely qualified for huge delays because it a) is not safety relevant, so less rigorously tested and checked, and b) complex enough that _something_ will probably break (checking tickets against the database, routing baggage along conveyor belts, ...)
10:59:51 <Rubidium> those ATC people are trained to still function, although less efficiently, without radar and other electronic help. Only when the radio fails there's a huge problem, but even then planes can coordinate between eachother
11:01:41 <Rubidium> i.e. the pilots can and will communicate with eachother, but on the highway... they'll have barely any notice of people walking there
11:03:00 <Eddi|zuHause> humans do weird stuff in large groups
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12:14:31 <nielsm> hmm is there any patch that extends "disallow train reversing in stations" with a third option, where multiple units (with cabs at both ends) are allowed to reverse in stations but non-MUs are not?
12:17:14 <frosch123> there are newgrf which set the speed limit to something like 30 km/h when driving in a weird direction
12:19:13 <nielsm> that would have to be combined with something that reverses the entire consist when the train reverses at end of line, right?
12:19:52 <nielsm> meaning you'd get consists with no engine at the front
12:27:11 <frosch123> let's say, it is comilicated :)
12:27:23 <TrueBrain> [02:01] <peter1138> TrueBrain, hmm, git commit 60f0610a851 is strange, did moving that equation make a big CPU difference I wonder? <- I think this came from a profile; so most likely it was. We did a few optimizations based on profiles. I rarely do any optimizations unless I know it matters :)
12:38:59 <TrueBrain> frosch123: OS check, do we want to keep support for the following: FreeBSD, DragonFly, OpenBSD, NetBSD, HP-UX, MorphOS, BeOS, Haiku, SunOS, Solaris, Cygwin, OS2, DOS, WINCE, PSP ?
12:41:11 <frosch123> in the past two years we had contributions for some BSD and OS/2
12:41:39 <frosch123> dos is only toyed on by rb and roboboy (or whatever nick he uses these days)
12:42:15 <frosch123> hpux, morphos, beos, haiku, sunos, solaris, wince and psp i have not seen in the past 10 years
12:42:32 <frosch123> i have no idea whether people use cygwin, or rather mingw
12:42:40 <TrueBrain> we can aks glx that
12:42:46 <TrueBrain> but I havent seen Cygwin in a long long time :)
12:43:18 <TrueBrain> okay, so I will see if I can make Dockers for the BSDs. OS/2 .. well, nice gimmick, find by me (does it have a c++11 compiler?)
12:43:25 <TrueBrain> DOS I will ask Rb, but I think that is fine too
12:43:38 <TrueBrain> means I am going to make a commit to remove the others; espcially those with a lot of special code
12:46:37 <Alberth> you can also drop anything without c++11 support, I guess
12:46:48 <TrueBrain> which is a bit hard to explore :)
12:46:51 <Alberth> not sure if that helps :)
12:47:03 <nielsm> just check if clang exists for the platform?
12:47:03 <TrueBrain> But stuff like PSP and WinCE are just experiments gone bad ...
12:47:10 <TrueBrain> I checked in PSP :P
12:47:19 <TrueBrain> nielsm: not a bad idea tbh
12:49:02 <nielsm> if you have clang, X11, and OSS, I'd wager most real unices can be supported without any special handling
12:53:34 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i guess when it comes to gcc, we only support g++ >= 6.0
12:54:04 <frosch123> so, all the gcc 3/4 things can leave
12:54:25 <TrueBrain> that would be a nice cleanup too
12:57:33 <frosch123> though RHEL7 only has gcc 4.8
12:57:44 <frosch123> which supports c++11 inofficially
12:58:31 <TrueBrain> but we were going to do c++11, not? or c++14?
12:59:01 <frosch123> i would prefer c++14, it finishes stuff that c++11 started
12:59:16 <frosch123> i would say no to c++11 closures :p
12:59:18 <TrueBrain> so we drop RHEL7? :)
12:59:39 <TrueBrain> dont know what closures are :P
12:59:56 <frosch123> lambda functions or annoynmous functions
13:00:35 <frosch123> std::bind, but sane
13:03:31 <LordAro> you can get newer compilers for RHEL
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13:25:10 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Current FISH 2 (2.0.3) on Bananas is named 'Squid Ate Fish r1687' in the selection menu
13:25:24 <FLHerne> This is a bit confusing
13:25:39 <andythenorth> the names seem to be really unreliable
13:25:54 * FLHerne just spent a few minutes trying to get rid of whatever weird devel version was masking the stable release, until realising...
13:26:38 <andythenorth> I've never worked out where OpenTTD gets the names from
13:26:56 <andythenorth> we rewrote a newgrf makefile to try and eliminate this issue
13:27:08 <andythenorth> but still happens, had a broken FIRS release recently due to this
13:28:18 <andythenorth> I won't fix Squid, it's legacy now
13:28:21 <andythenorth> just unfortunate :P
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13:32:41 <Wolf01> Ha firefox... started from FF15, updated to 43, to 47, to 52esr and now is dowloading another update...
13:33:27 <andythenorth> FLHerne: if there was a similar-sized alternative to the Growler, what would it be?
13:33:37 <andythenorth> introduced sometime 1950-1975
13:34:40 <FLHerne> 31s for ubiquity, but a bit underpowered
13:34:58 <andythenorth> needs to be 8/8 long, at least if you squint
13:35:44 <FLHerne> Would say 40, but a squashed 40 would be indistinguishable :P
13:36:04 <andythenorth> yeah I had same thought
13:36:04 <FLHerne> It's annoying that all the Modernisation Plan locos were so crap...
13:36:12 <andythenorth> well Horse alllows faking
13:36:31 <andythenorth> too-long class 33
13:37:34 <FLHerne> You don't actually have a 47 yet, do you?
13:37:39 <FLHerne> But you do have 57s, so meh
13:38:15 <FLHerne> Warships aren't really comparable
13:39:44 <andythenorth> the Dragon / Wizzo is kind of a warship
13:39:49 <andythenorth> also kind of a western
13:40:03 <andythenorth> could do a 50 and hobble the stats
13:40:17 <andythenorth> but it would just look like the thunderbird
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13:40:40 <FLHerne> I guess technically, some of the Standard steam locos are 'sometime 1950-...'
13:42:05 <andythenorth> Pikka: you actually doing GT3? o_O
13:42:32 <FLHerne> Deltic for the express, and cut back the Dragon to be mixed-traffickey?
13:42:51 <FLHerne> But then the Deltic still looks very 37ish at TT scale..
13:42:54 <andythenorth> it's like that rule in Bill and Ted
13:43:16 <andythenorth> oh it was Wayne's World but eh
13:43:39 <andythenorth> Led Zellepin policy
13:44:19 <FLHerne> (correction, it's in the extension)
13:44:52 <andythenorth> current lead contender is Class 75
13:44:57 <andythenorth> and introduce it in 1975
13:45:11 <andythenorth> dunno what it would look like though
13:45:12 <FLHerne> Those funny Ivatt prototypes would be about right
13:45:29 <FLHerne> (would still have the EE-family-look problem)
13:45:41 <andythenorth> there's the big Southern 1
13:46:14 <andythenorth> right power band, unusual shape
13:47:01 <andythenorth> I'd rather do the bulleid 0-6-0 in 1945 or so, then do a replacement for it in 1975
13:48:59 <Pikka> that'a a nice prototype Class 40 you have there ;)
13:49:19 <FLHerne> It just looks /slightly/ more different from a 37 :P
13:49:46 <Pikka> the 10000 was more like a prototype 37 :)
13:49:49 <andythenorth> it doesn't solve my 1975 problem :)
13:50:17 <andythenorth> how many bone-shaped engines can I do :P
13:50:18 <Pikka> why do you need one? what's wrong with the 37? :)
13:50:30 <andythenorth> I want to add an alternative
13:51:07 <andythenorth> I've added a 'joker' roster
13:51:13 <andythenorth> like UKRS 2 extended
13:51:35 <andythenorth> no garratts though :P
13:52:29 <FLHerne> Maybe do the 37 in 1960, then replace it by the 57/0 and add a stretched 67 for express?
13:54:04 <andythenorth> the 57 is really a 50
13:57:32 <andythenorth> I could fix the narrow gauge roster, and give the option of building entirely different railtype
13:57:44 <andythenorth> which might be better than spamming more engines
13:58:18 <peter1138> There was a spate of newgrfs that did that.
13:58:28 <peter1138> Oh yeah, I was scrolled up :p
13:58:44 <andythenorth> 'did that' ? o_O
13:59:00 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Isn't that just a class 128?
13:59:41 <peter1138> Hmm, so news and ticker working at normal speed in FFWD...
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14:01:02 <peter1138> Heh, viewport scrolling speeds up in FFWD still.
14:06:44 <andythenorth> that one's northern irish, to be strictly accurate
14:20:05 * nielsm thinks about how to modify the music system to support music renderers with pcm output instead of midi
14:20:32 <nielsm> while still keeping midi support in too
14:27:20 <TrueBrain> right .. removed 2 OSes, which were the most annoying :P (PSP and WinCE)
14:27:37 <TrueBrain> others have less of a code impact it seems
14:27:47 <nielsm> wince sounds like it depended on msvc6 support
14:28:08 <TrueBrain> MorphOS and BeOS are next; they also have a few ifdefs around
14:31:31 <frosch123> TrueBrain: what indentation style does source.list use?
14:31:36 <frosch123> you switch from tabs to spaces
14:37:14 <TrueBrain> bit annoying how my editor does that
14:38:43 <peter1138> nielsm, music system probably won't care. You'd probably want to modify the mixer to dedicate 2 channels to music.
14:39:05 <peter1138> Fortunately the mixer is independent (for now) of the sound driver in use.
14:39:11 <TrueBrain> and the PSP diff also had that frosch123 .. should be fixed now, I hope :)
14:39:49 <nielsm> peter1138 the music playback system would have to know how to handle non-midi files and send them to an appropriate decoder instead
14:39:56 <frosch123> he, i was just questioning my browser cache :p
14:40:03 <nielsm> also, am I reading right that the mixer runs at 11 kHz right now?
14:42:08 <nielsm> oh, I see the sound driver sets mixer rate
14:44:30 <nielsm> and for music purposes I think it would make more sense to have a partially separate system, since the mixer currently assumes all sounds are short samples, not continuous streams, so something where the music system gives the mixer a function/object pointer that then supplies samples to get mixed in as well
14:44:36 <nielsm> well, things like mp3 files?
14:44:46 <frosch123> TrueBrain: does jenkins currently build two revisions of the branch in parallel?
14:44:48 <peter1138> Why would you want that?
14:44:49 <nielsm> or an fm synth reading the dos version opl2 music
14:45:20 <peter1138> nielsm, limit your scope.
14:45:24 <peter1138> Stick with MIDI first.
14:45:31 <nielsm> not allowed to dream? :)
14:45:38 <peter1138> Get that working, then consider how to extend to other formats.
14:46:15 <TrueBrain> frosch123: the CI can only do 1 thing at the time, so no?
14:46:56 <TrueBrain> the master already picked it up
14:47:03 <TrueBrain> but he cannot assign a node to work on
14:47:26 <TrueBrain> this is because the master has a free slot .. but is not allowed to continue :D
14:47:55 <TrueBrain> and this is because the master spins up a docker, and deligates the full job there .. just I told him he can only have 1 docker slave spinned up :)
14:48:03 <TrueBrain> so master is now waiting for a slave to become available ..
14:48:08 <TrueBrain> guess I could configure it differently, but meh :)
15:11:09 <_dp_> if (t->growth_rate != 0xFFFF) ? t->growth_rate
15:11:21 <_dp_> ha, that's where I fell asleep yesterday xD
15:21:13 <nielsm> listening to ttd dos opl2 music in dosbox while reading the dosbox opl2/3/adlib emulation code
15:21:54 <nielsm> it looks very manageable, and reversing the ttd dos opl2 music driver shouldn't be too bad, a cursory look makes it look very similar to the mpu401 one
15:23:35 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I kinda like it
15:23:36 <frosch123> does it sound any different to the general midi?
15:23:55 <FLHerne> Not really a fan of fictional engines, but that's a pretty good one
15:25:05 <nielsm> how it sounded when I played it in the mid-90's :)
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15:28:03 <peter1138> TTO theme was much better.
15:28:20 <peter1138> Very similar though.
15:28:26 <andythenorth> FLHerne: it's a possibility
15:29:13 <andythenorth> or I make it look more like a 58 and put it in 1975
15:29:22 <andythenorth> the main thing is that engines look different :P
15:35:05 <TrueBrain> wow, Haiku is still an actively maintained OS ..
15:36:18 <frosch123> i think heise had an headline about a new morphos release last year
15:36:22 <nielsm> well, so are various games dating back 20+ years too :)
15:36:50 <TrueBrain> guess for now I will only be removing BeOS .. as that really is a dead OS :)
15:44:05 <Wolf01> Mmmh, lapdog with XP is just as slow as before... dunno... it was really fast for the first 2 restarts, now it takes again 10-12 minutes to be ready for work
15:46:13 <Alberth> it downloaded old performance characteristics for your type of computer and adaped :p
15:47:58 <Alberth> maybe it's trying to download non-existing updates or so
15:48:42 <Wolf01> I think is the antivirus
15:52:57 <TrueBrain> right, enough of removing OSes for now :)
15:56:26 <frosch123> he, there was even a STR_OSNAME_BEOS :p
15:56:47 <TrueBrain> we used to do that for every OS .. but that stopped at some point I guess
15:56:51 <TrueBrain> some even "translated" it :P
15:57:17 <frosch123> sending translator to wiki :)
15:59:15 <peter1138> "All checks have failed"
15:59:30 <frosch123> no idea whether "BEOS_NET_SERVER" would also be used by haiku
15:59:59 <TrueBrain> that is a good question frosch123 .. I assumed it wasn't
16:00:02 <TrueBrain> but that was an assumption
16:00:06 <TrueBrain> cannot really test Haiku ..
16:00:14 <TrueBrain> meh, maybe I should forget about this PR for now
16:00:28 <TrueBrain> first figure out if we want to support Haiku, and if it can be added to the CI someway
16:00:41 <frosch123> meh, more commit hook exceptions
16:02:24 <LordAro> TrueBrain: probably not worth the effort of adding it to CI, although it'd be good to build releases for it
16:02:34 <TrueBrain> LordAro: tomato tomato
16:03:00 <TrueBrain> not saying it should be linked to every PR btw
16:03:06 <TrueBrain> just that once a week orso all targets are tested
16:03:14 <TrueBrain> avoids big surprises whena release approaches :)
16:03:27 <LordAro> yeah, that sort of thing
16:05:55 <frosch123> LordAro: you could also prepare a PR that (1) checks for changed baseset translations, and runs (2) src/script/api/generate_widget.sh and (3) src/script/api/squirrel_export.sh
16:06:24 <frosch123> (1) is something eints currently doesn't, but maybe should?
16:06:36 <frosch123> (2) and in consequence (3) are forgotten all the time
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16:09:20 <TrueBrain> frosch123: dont forget projects/generate :)
16:09:31 <frosch123> i thought you wanted to remove that :p
16:09:39 <TrueBrain> over time, sure, but that won't be next week :)
16:09:48 <TrueBrain> if cmake works, I expect that we will have both system for a full release
16:13:07 * andythenorth trainshedding not bikeshedding
16:13:20 <andythenorth> 100 trains to draw, and I'm obsessing about adding another one, or not :P
16:14:54 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: DOS' latest GCC is 7.3.0, so compiler wise it's definitely new enough... though I think you need to cross-compile from Windows
16:15:11 <TrueBrain> sounds like a challenge
16:15:16 <TrueBrain> how is the endian PR going Rubidium? :)
16:15:53 <Rubidium> LA hasn't made it yet ;(
16:16:53 <TrueBrain> you have the diffs ... why not do it yourself?
16:16:57 <TrueBrain> you also have a github account!
16:20:40 <TrueBrain> no benefit in making me happy
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16:36:37 <Rubidium> so I have to recover the account and go through another 20+ steps just for one patch (don't have an intention and/or time to pick further development up in the near future) that make your live easier
16:36:55 <TrueBrain> 20+ steps? Holy crap, what were you planning to do
16:37:26 <TrueBrain> if only you knew your password ... than it would be 2 minutes :P But yes .. now knowing your passwords is annoying :)
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16:45:13 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I guess your patch misses the part for MSVC?
16:45:21 <TrueBrain> or do those project files not use it?
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16:53:14 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: MSVC defined either WIN32 or WIN64, which (before the changes in endian_type) already hard code the endianness
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17:30:22 <markyisri> I have a question about the OpenTTD gameplay manual/wiki. Is is possible to download an offline copy?
17:31:01 <LordAro> theres a "Printable version" link on the left side
17:31:20 <LordAro> as for downloading the whole thing though, any sort of web scraper can probably do that for you
17:31:48 <TrueBrain> maybe a better question would be why you want to do that? Wikis tend to be rather large with not-so-useful information?
17:31:56 <_dp_> do people even live offline?
17:32:23 <LordAro> there's an awful lot on the wiki that's out of date
17:32:43 <markyisri> I wanted a comprehensive guide to refer to while learning. I downloaded the game yesterday.
17:32:49 <TrueBrain> any wiki is out-of-date before the save button is pressed the first time LordAro ;)
17:33:20 <TrueBrain> learn by playing :D But yeah .. I dont really have an answer honestly
17:33:23 <LordAro> markyisri: i'd probably suggest that the only pages you need are Signals and Orders
17:33:33 <LordAro> everything else is fairly intuative for first time
17:34:11 <markyisri> Thanks for the advice
17:34:48 <LordAro> but good luck! hope you enjoy it :)
17:35:06 <TrueBrain> he will enjoy it! Just the question is .. when will he go to sleep tonight :D
17:35:18 <markyisri> I have enjoyed it already
17:35:36 <markyisri> I was toying around with it while following a 25-minute video tutorial I found on Youtube
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17:37:38 <TrueBrain> even after 15 years people can surprise you :P
17:38:01 <TrueBrain> video tutorial on youtube
17:38:08 <TrueBrain> couldn't even predict thatone
17:38:15 <LordAro> oh yes, that's basically how people learn games these days
17:38:19 <LordAro> minecraft started it, i guess
17:44:36 <frosch123> i wanted to post the only yt signal tutorial where the author actually understood them
17:45:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: there are extensive ottd let's plays, even channels dedicated to mostly ottd
17:46:42 <frosch123> a few months back some yt douche wanted to impersonate abuse@ and dmca a competitive channel
17:47:06 <TrueBrain> I forgot that people can go really low
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18:11:51 <peter1138> TrueBrain, yeah, people seem to just watch other people doing stuff these days, instead of just reading.
18:12:50 <_dp_> You won't get very far in OpenTTD by just playing :p
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18:46:15 <nielsm> frosch123: there you go
18:48:14 <frosch123> nielsm: yay, now 20 minutes of jenkins :)
18:49:47 <glx> yes the other PR is using the ressources :)
18:50:22 <nielsm> the osx build seems to be significantly slower than the rest, or is it just me?
19:00:22 <andythenorth> it's slow for me locally
19:00:27 <andythenorth> takes a couple of minutes
19:01:33 <nielsm> I suppose I should do some testing of the non-windows dos music loading code too, from ther other PR
19:01:36 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: merged your endian-removal patches :) Tnx again
19:02:09 <nielsm> since I can just call it from the win32 midi player regardless
19:06:11 <TrueBrain> may it be your last :)
19:06:59 <nielsm> forgot to skip the path separator when generating the temp filename for the .mid file to be written
19:07:21 <nielsm> so it'd have made filenames like 0/GMCAT.mid instead of 0GMCAT.mid
19:08:38 <nielsm> is it reasonable to write those to the content_download/baseset/ directory?
19:11:39 <nielsm> (the unreasonable part might be that the files get re-written each time the song starts, I haven't made a mechanism to check for file already existing, and am not sure how much verification that it's really the right thing would be appropriate)
19:14:21 <frosch123> when ottd downloads a musicset from bananas, it uncompresses the content into a separate folder
19:14:34 <frosch123> i would treat the CAT files like archives
19:15:06 <nielsm> so instead make it content_download/baseset/GM.CAT/0.mid
19:15:08 <frosch123> so uncompresing GM.CAT results in GMCAT/0.mid or somthing
19:15:25 <frosch123> first i wanted to suggest "GM/0.mid", but that would conflict with the win music
19:15:26 <nielsm> and just assume the file is correct if it exists
19:16:10 <frosch123> likely you are also not allowed to name the directory identical to the file, so "GM.CAT/" is also invalid :p
19:16:42 <nielsm> usually GM.CAT would be in baseset/ in the install dir, not in content_download/baseset/
19:16:50 <nielsm> since you don't download the cat files from bananas
19:17:30 <frosch123> true, but people drop their stuff wherever :p
19:18:48 <frosch123> how do you plan to make the .obm?
19:19:11 <frosch123> should the .obm refer to GM.CAT or to GMCAT/ ?
19:20:54 <nielsm> I'm not sure if it should be named lowercase or uppercase in the .obm file actually
19:21:38 <frosch123> "gm-tto.cat"? i doubt it was named like that :p
19:22:26 <nielsm> yes you have to rename it
19:22:37 <nielsm> it's named gm.cat in both original and deluxe
19:23:11 <frosch123> we also support both dos graphics without needing to rename them
19:23:19 <frosch123> but i see, that would conflict with the unpacking
19:23:26 <nielsm> I also made myself a "original_remix.obm" that uses the theme from TTO but the rest from TTD, and just adds the TTD theme as another song on Ezy Street
19:24:50 <nielsm> but part of what happens is also that the music driver doesn't *have* to write a .mid file to disk to play it, the new win32 driver plays the decoded "mps midi" (as I call it internally) from memory
19:25:38 <TrueBrain> glx: is Cygwin still a thing? Or can we just kill it?
19:26:31 <TrueBrain> nielsm: do you think there is a solution for #6750 ? Or shall we promote it to an issue and leave it for another day to be solved? :)
19:27:18 <TrueBrain> frosch123: nice going with the way you give feedback in PRs. I really like the tone and attention you give to it :) Kudos to you :)
19:27:27 <nielsm> uh the VBS script could be fixed but it'll be bothersome
19:27:42 <glx> cygwin still exist, latest version is from february
19:27:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: trying my best :p
19:28:11 <nielsm> I entered sysadmin world after powershell became a thing so I'm not at all fluent in vbscript ;)
19:28:16 <frosch123> but actually i just leave the closing to others :p
19:28:52 <TrueBrain> nielsm: if only spanish is the issue, I am somewhat tempted to just hard-code it :P
19:29:30 <nielsm> oh like, "if filename is spanish.txt write spanish_MX.txt, and if filename is spanish_MX.txt then write spanish.txt" or such?
19:30:29 <frosch123> TrueBrain: wasn't the concusion that linux should sort based on basename, without extension?
19:30:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I read a lot of weird suggestions :D
19:30:50 <TrueBrain> holy crap, generate.vbs is annoying with all the OK dialogs
19:30:54 <nielsm> I'm actually surprised you have mexican spanish separate, but not brazilian vs european portuguese
19:31:04 <TrueBrain> tnx btw, glx, guess we will leave CygWin alone for now :P
19:31:18 <frosch123> nielsm: they both exist, but use different filenames
19:31:26 <nielsm> TrueBrain, run it from commandline, "cscript generate.vbs"
19:31:34 <frosch123> brazilian_portuguese.txt
19:31:47 <nielsm> that's just not ISO-like at all!
19:32:06 <glx> we could just rename spanish_MX to mexican_spanish
19:32:32 <frosch123> please don't :p that breaks too much
19:32:45 <TrueBrain> we will overcome :P
19:32:48 <nielsm> or rename spanish.txt to spanish_EU.txt
19:32:53 <TrueBrain> eints just needs a pat on the back :P
19:33:05 <frosch123> i think game scripts are the issue
19:35:36 <glx> but openttd itself doesn't care about the filename, that's silly scripts are using it
19:39:39 <frosch123> ottd expects script translations to use the same filename as the ottd translation
19:43:29 <Alberth> no ##grflang identification in AI/Game scripts
19:48:36 <TrueBrain> nielsm: okay, I think I found a clean way without going to hacking :)
19:48:49 <TrueBrain> first I tried to make Vbs do the right thing .. but even a manual Sort() gave a different result .. silly Vbs :P
19:48:53 <TrueBrain> and what a horrible scripting language
19:50:33 <frosch123> i would have put the sed script into single quotes
19:51:02 <TrueBrain> did not want to reinvent too much :)
19:51:17 <TrueBrain> the sed clearly has been working for years, so .. yeah :P
19:51:24 <TrueBrain> (I do agree with you btw :) )
19:51:45 <frosch123> oh, did not notice that it was moved
19:51:54 <TrueBrain> its 2 lines lower! :P
19:51:58 <frosch123> i just assumed that the first sed removed the extension and the second readded it
19:52:25 <TrueBrain> with these things I always try to find the bare minimum to fix it with :)
19:52:58 <TrueBrain> funny, 3 languages already updated their strings :P
19:52:59 <nielsm> argh why is FioCreateDirectory marked 'static' in fileio.cpp
19:53:17 <TrueBrain> still surprised by the dedication of our translators
19:53:40 <TrueBrain> nielsm: because nobody ever needed it outside of flileio.cpp? Something easily fixed? :)
19:55:35 <frosch123> one PR referencing another is weird
19:55:50 <TrueBrain> I could have made a PR to his fork
19:56:04 <TrueBrain> but we should have made an issue out of it first
19:56:09 <TrueBrain> than reference them from PRs
19:56:12 <TrueBrain> GitHub used to do that
19:56:19 <TrueBrain> guess something with overhead
19:56:36 <TrueBrain> I will remove it from my commit message on squashing frosch123 :)
19:58:05 <glx> quickly testing on mingw but it should be ok
19:58:32 <glx> well bash and mingw are never quick ;)
19:58:47 <TrueBrain> yeah .. I had the same issue while testing
19:59:02 <TrueBrain> worse for me was, to test it on linux I first had to drag it in a git on a linux mount (\r\n issues)
19:59:30 <TrueBrain> but I am happy with WSL
19:59:37 <TrueBrain> lot easier to develop for both OSes
19:59:58 <nielsm> yay now it created content_download/baseset/GM-TTOCAT/0.mid
20:00:33 <glx> mingw still works as before :)
20:01:23 <TrueBrain> glx: is that a good or bad thing? :)
20:03:41 <frosch123> haha, we have a jenkins queue of over an hour
20:04:31 <frosch123> TrueBrain: should we buy another vps with a few more cores?
20:04:36 <TrueBrain> I really either need more CPU power, or make the CI incremental, or install ccache
20:04:54 <TrueBrain> frosch123: if we can afford it :P
20:04:54 <frosch123> i doubt aws would be free, and aws is 3 times more expensive than some vps
20:05:05 <frosch123> (according to my computation last night)
20:05:10 <TrueBrain> we can look at the AWS instances that .. what was it called ...
20:05:22 <nielsm> hm should I put the minor change to fileio.cpp & fileio_func.h in a separate commit or just "hide" it along with the feature code that depends on it?
20:05:30 <TrueBrain> yeah, normal AWS instances are very expensive if you compare them to dedicated servers
20:05:40 <nielsm> AWS you can pay per minute basically
20:05:50 <TrueBrain> and you have this instance type
20:05:51 <nielsm> if you just shut down the instance when you don't need it
20:05:54 <TrueBrain> which is cheap, but not always available
20:06:53 <TrueBrain> those are a lot cheaper
20:06:55 <TrueBrain> but might not be available etc
20:07:11 <andythenorth> jenkins has support for AWS spot
20:07:43 <andythenorth> it can stop and start nodes, but you tend to run with a pool of them available AIUI
20:07:50 <andythenorth> it's very cheap, until it's not
20:10:06 <frosch123> unless the billing rounds to whole hours :p
20:12:41 <nielsm> here have some more for the jenkins queue
20:23:32 <TrueBrain> we had 50 PRs in, what, a month
20:23:39 <TrueBrain> which resulted in, what, 150 CI hits?
20:23:49 <TrueBrain> lets say it doubles
20:24:01 <TrueBrain> means 300 CI hits per month, 10 a day, 1 every 2 hours
20:24:40 <TrueBrain> we currently use 2 cores, build takes, what, 20 minutes .. make that 30
20:24:58 <TrueBrain> so 50% load on a single core
20:25:12 <TrueBrain> lets keep things simple, say we double again, 600 CI hits a month
20:25:17 <TrueBrain> means we need 1 core
20:26:25 <TrueBrain> @calc 0.062 * 24 * 30
20:26:38 <TrueBrain> so 45 euro on your URL, for 2 cores
20:26:48 <TrueBrain> @calc 0.062 * 24 * 30 * .121
20:26:51 <TrueBrain> @calc 0.062 * 24 * 30 * 1.21
20:27:00 <frosch123> prices are linear for more cores
20:27:41 <TrueBrain> for 42 euro a month we can buy a dedicated server similar to what we have now .. with 8 cores
20:27:48 <TrueBrain> just doesnt scale as well (no burst)
20:27:58 <TrueBrain> well, 4 cores, 8 HT
20:28:13 <TrueBrain> so ... 10 euro with no burst vs 27 euros with burst
20:29:46 <TrueBrain> lets see .. AWS spot .. 2 vCPUs, 0.0317 per hour
20:29:57 <TrueBrain> @calc 0.0317 * 24 * 30
20:30:06 <TrueBrain> so 22 euro per month, but for 2 cores, so 11 euro
20:30:30 <TrueBrain> linear with CPU too
20:30:33 <frosch123> there are also "no guarantees" on the ovh site
20:30:46 <andythenorth> AWS limit how many spot instances you can buy also
20:30:53 <andythenorth> and then it gets expensive to add more to your account
20:31:12 <TrueBrain> but we only need 4 or so
20:31:15 <andythenorth> not sure how that works, but doubling our Jenkins would cost something like 3x or 4x as much
20:31:26 <andythenorth> I am hazy on the details :P
20:31:41 <TrueBrain> but EC2 Spot is the cheapest solution for us I guess
20:31:43 <andythenorth> anyway, I can sponsor x amount per month
20:31:52 <andythenorth> I used to sponsor coop, but that seems to not be a thing
20:32:04 <frosch123> @calc 300*40/60*0.01
20:32:05 <TrueBrain> would mean we have to pay AWS around 20 euro per month for it, give or take a few
20:32:21 <michi_cc> For the OVH cloud I read lots of 'Billed to the nearest hour'.
20:32:32 <andythenorth> I can do like £15 / month
20:32:35 <TrueBrain> they almost always are billed to the next hour, honestly :)
20:32:40 <andythenorth> how much do we have orudge? o_O
20:32:41 <frosch123> 2 euro per month :p
20:32:52 <frosch123> i have no idea what this "no guarantee" means :p
20:32:57 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: we havent had a fundraiser in years; nuff said
20:33:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: if you dont say what you calculate, it means very little to me :)
20:33:18 <andythenorth> frosch123: 'no guarantee' _usually_ means contended instances
20:33:24 <andythenorth> and they can go away at no notice
20:33:40 <frosch123> TrueBrain: you said 300 hits per month, 40 cpu minutes per hit
20:33:58 <frosch123> @calc 300*40/60*0.085/2
20:34:20 <frosch123> i don't get your 27 euros
20:34:36 <frosch123> though i skipped VAT
20:34:41 <TrueBrain> I calculated 50% load on a single core, with 300 hits per month, and say 30 minutes per hit
20:35:03 <TrueBrain> so to make calculations easier, as round to an hour will fuck us over
20:35:09 <TrueBrain> say 100% load on a single core
20:35:19 <TrueBrain> means if you look at the price for a single core, it will always be under, never over
20:35:33 <TrueBrain> they ask 0.062 euro per hour for 2 cores
20:35:49 <TrueBrain> @calc 0.062 * 24 * 30 * 1.21
20:35:56 <TrueBrain> 24 hours in a day, 30 days in a month, + VAT
20:36:34 <frosch123> but that is for constant usage
20:36:42 <TrueBrain> 1 CPU core at 100% load
20:36:44 <TrueBrain> is pretty constant yes
20:36:53 <TrueBrain> that was the whole point of picking that :)
20:36:56 <frosch123> @calc 0.062 * 20/60 * 300 * 1.21
20:37:12 <frosch123> your computations are far away from the 300 hits
20:37:20 <TrueBrain> yes, it assumes we will have 4 times more PR than we have now, but .. with the rounding of the hours, it most likely doesnt matter if we have 300 CI hits or 1200
20:37:35 <TrueBrain> yes ... I said that
20:37:44 <TrueBrain> 300 hits with 30 minutes is ~50% .. I doubled that
20:38:07 <andythenorth> if it runs out of nodes stuff will just queue up no?
20:38:08 <TrueBrain> these "per hour" prices basically means: every CI hit will cost an hour
20:38:38 <TrueBrain> so if we keep the 300, it would mean
20:38:43 <TrueBrain> @calc 0.062 * 300 * 1.21
20:39:05 <TrueBrain> either way, the numbers were not that relevant to me, more how they compare to each other
20:39:13 <TrueBrain> basically, OVH cloud is expensive, as is EC2
20:39:21 <TrueBrain> EC2 spot is cheap, about as expensive as our own dedicated server
20:39:25 <TrueBrain> EC2 spot can only scale
20:39:34 <TrueBrain> so it is a balance game; what do we want
20:39:40 <TrueBrain> consistant throughput, or burst
20:39:53 <frosch123> to me it looks we need burst on weekend
20:40:04 <TrueBrain> so EC2 Spot is a good candidate in that case
20:40:08 <frosch123> which may mean that we can go for the SANDBOX thing, when no business uses them
20:40:51 <frosch123> 1/8 the price, but no guarantees
20:40:55 <frosch123> whatever that means :p
20:41:05 <TrueBrain> AWS does the same .. but I guess AWS is a bit bigger :P
20:41:11 <TrueBrain> higher chance they are available :D
20:41:30 <TrueBrain> I think 2 GB is not enough btw .. had issues when the VM was running on 2GB
20:42:02 <TrueBrain> wow, Windows is expensie :o
20:42:39 <TrueBrain> "from the three available" continues to list 4
20:43:24 <TrueBrain> no SANDBOX for Windows :P
20:43:41 <TrueBrain> and almost double for the C2-7 for example
20:44:15 <TrueBrain> either way, these things, are really a matter of trying
20:44:20 <TrueBrain> no clue how they work and how well they work
20:44:35 <TrueBrain> and the other approach is simply adding ccache for the linux CIs :P
20:44:43 <TrueBrain> would drop their times drasticly
20:44:56 <TrueBrain> just shit-annoyed AWS never replied :(
20:46:09 <TrueBrain> glx: did mingw work with my generate fix? (did it produce no diff on my branch)?
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20:58:19 <glx> TrueBrain: yes it works, still produces the same diff as generate.vbs
20:58:46 <glx> hence the work as before ;)
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21:32:52 <TrueBrain> @calc 0.062 / 2 * 1.21
21:34:12 <TrueBrain> frosch123: another way of saying this, the above are the prices per CI run :D (OVH Cloud, AWS Spot, OVH SANDBOX)
21:34:25 <TrueBrain> so we can charge people to create their PR to cover it :D
21:35:00 <frosch123> ok, then i only found the wrong aws stuff
21:35:20 <LordAro> OVH has sponsored OTTD in the past...
21:35:51 <frosch123> sponsoring does not work if you have noone to contantly run after them
21:36:04 <frosch123> at which point you have to compare it to your salary :p
21:36:47 <TrueBrain> only works for jenkins stuff .. not for hosting etc
21:40:25 <frosch123> fpga instances? who uses that?
21:40:33 <frosch123> people who want to decrypt stuff?
21:45:40 <TrueBrain> any specific job I guess ..
21:47:26 <andythenorth> I was paying £15 / month for world of tanks
21:47:33 <andythenorth> and it's not even pay-to-win :P
21:47:39 <LordAro> andythenorth: oh dear
21:47:41 <andythenorth> I can cover some cloud hosting
21:47:46 <LordAro> you're one of *those* people
21:51:44 <TrueBrain> I thought you paid us with your grumpyness every day andy?
21:52:30 <andythenorth> WoT made me grumpy :P
21:54:59 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Wow, is production in FIRS 3 supposed to be this high?!
21:55:22 <FLHerne> My brand-new, unfed Orchard & Piggery produces 185t of fruit per month...
21:56:00 <nielsm> FLHerne on the other hand, it can't ever increase to 2000 t/month
21:56:06 <andythenorth> although you got lucky with randomisation there
21:56:22 <FLHerne> The other ones are all >100
21:56:36 <FLHerne> This is going to be a pain with my little 15t steam lorries :P
21:57:17 <nielsm> part of the challenge with FIRS is that you basically have to server lots and lots of industries to get large amounts of raw materials, and also send supplies back
21:57:56 <andythenorth> depends on the economy
21:57:57 <FLHerne> nielsm: Yes, I've played with FIRS before, just not this version
21:58:09 <andythenorth> previously farms were smaller and clustered densely
21:58:26 <andythenorth> in 3 they are larger (higher production) and cluster less densely
21:58:39 <FLHerne> In the older one, initial production is 3-4 dozen, so you really have to use supplies to get a decent output
21:59:32 <FLHerne> I can't imagine ever /wanting/ to feed supplies to these, they'll be enough of a pain to serve as it is
22:00:42 <FLHerne> Hm, wasn't there a parameter for production level once? 'Generous' etc. ?
22:00:50 <FLHerne> Or is my memory playing tricks?
22:01:54 <andythenorth> there's a parameter for effect of supplies
22:02:26 <andythenorth> most FIRS primaries can be served by two trains around TL5
22:02:40 <andythenorth> some get randomised up to 400 units or so / month
22:02:47 <andythenorth> which needs TL8 or 3 trains
22:02:59 <FLHerne> Aargh, even the original industry has silly production levels
22:03:14 <FLHerne> Well, at least it's open-source
22:03:20 <andythenorth> it's easy to adjust
22:03:57 <andythenorth> the net production is about the same as you'd get previously from 3 clustered farms
22:04:11 <andythenorth> but now there is less yak-shaving to collect it
22:04:22 <FLHerne> Yeah, where's the fun in that? :P
22:05:28 <andythenorth> there's a reason FIRS 2 has a different grfid :P
22:05:33 <andythenorth> still on bananas eh
22:06:00 <FLHerne> That's a point, might be easier
22:06:10 <FLHerne> OTOH, I do already have a FIRS checkout
22:08:36 <andythenorth> that's the Little Bear engine in Horse 1
22:08:43 <andythenorth> except we completely invented the Little Beaer
22:10:10 <FLHerne> New firs doesn't like being built in a git-hg checkout
22:10:34 <andythenorth> I'd switch to git...but eh :(
22:13:37 <FLHerne> Meh, I can hack bin/hg-info to return nonsense :P
22:14:56 <FLHerne> Oh, I don't even need to do that
22:19:21 * FLHerne sets REPO_VERSION to 9999, wcgw
22:33:14 <peter1138> andythenorth, DO IT
22:38:54 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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23:40:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
23:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone here have any clue how to diagnose windows performance problems? this system is really really slow, says disk I/O is at 100%, but only like 1MB/s
continue to next day ⏵
