IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-04-25
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00:00:51 <peter1138> Although it feels a bit sluggish :S
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00:02:23 <peter1138> Maybe it' snot even using it :p
00:03:18 <peter1138> Waves hands. Vaguell.
00:03:36 <peter1138> Hmm, no, it's using opengl, it is slower than without. Odd.
00:06:52 <glx> [23:44:33] peter1138 whistles innocently. <-- oups ;)
00:12:42 <peter1138> Hmm, it's only sluggish because the quick fix of moving UpdateWindows() doesn't work.
00:13:16 <peter1138> glx, twas an accident, but i didn't think it was possible anyway.
00:13:56 <glx> I think commits in master are not possible, but it's different for branches it seems
00:15:45 <peter1138> Aww, it crashed on fullscreen mode.
00:36:02 <peter1138> Oh right, that beeping was the router restarting. D'oh.
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01:36:42 <muffindrake2> Is there a specific goal in openttd?
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01:37:09 <muffindrake> Or is the only requirement really staying outside red numbers?
01:39:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it's really a "set your own goals" game...
01:40:13 <muffindrake> I'll just stick to trains then
01:40:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why there are so many people with so many different playstyles
01:40:15 <ST2> muffindrake: you make the goals you want: cover all towns, all coal mines
01:40:18 <muffindrake> _trains_ everywhere
01:40:28 <glx> or use a game script with goal
01:40:50 <muffindrake> Ah, I may look into that
01:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, goal scripts are a nice way to set goals if you're struggling to find challenge in your own goals
01:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i hear "silicon valley" is a good one
01:43:48 <ST2> available gamescripts on bananas
01:44:00 <glx> but use ingame downloader :)
01:44:02 <ST2> each one has a different goal/play style
01:44:28 <ST2> yeah, via Check Online Content button
01:45:32 <muffindrake> does openttd perform sanity checking on those scripts?
01:45:44 <muffindrake> Given that you can run system commands with lua
01:46:00 <glx> you can't do that with squirrel
01:46:08 <ST2> lua?! this is not Factorio ^^
01:46:23 <muffindrake> Yes, I was completely off-track there
01:46:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the squirrel interpreter disables some of the worst abuses you can do
01:47:16 <Eddi|zuHause> like commands that take a really long time and lock up the game
01:47:28 <ST2> (despite I think Eddi|zuHause have me on his ignore list xD)
01:47:44 <glx> and if something wrong happens the script is just killed
01:48:22 <ST2> and complementing glx words, throws an output of the error (file and line too)
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08:29:43 <Eddi|zuHause> comme ci comme ca
08:30:35 <V453000> returning to my python automation after 4 months makes it a huge pain to remember how exactly was it used :D
08:30:48 <V453000> -> making ultimate drag&drop full automation now :>
08:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the trick there is actually DOCUMENTING how it's meant to be used :p
08:31:27 <V453000> you drop a blender sequence folder, it spits out 32 and 8bpp spritesheets including 8bpp masks :)
08:31:35 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause, or that :D
08:31:50 <V453000> but I think in this case it's simply not versatile enough overall
08:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> but making a script work on a folder you drag onto it, should be easy
08:33:34 <Eddi|zuHause> just read sys.argv[1]
08:33:52 <V453000> already got 2 working
08:34:31 <andythenorth> bonjour Pikka bob
08:36:33 * andythenorth must train names
08:36:39 <andythenorth> the steam trains are all named sensibly :P
08:37:06 <andythenorth> the diesels use silly basher nicknames, from the internet
08:37:10 <andythenorth> so might not even be real gen
08:38:05 <andythenorth> I tried 'Zebedee' for the class 90, but looks daft
08:40:49 <Pikka> I realised last night that the only reason I don't spell out "English Electric" is that Chris Sawyer didn't. So now i do.
08:41:11 <V453000> is English electricity different than the rest of the world? :P
08:41:16 <andythenorth> V453000: there is a refurbed Slug, Slug 2
08:41:39 <V453000> There may be only one :P
08:42:22 <andythenorth> 'Slug Resurrection'
08:42:33 <andythenorth> what can I call the 59?
08:42:40 <andythenorth> that is also a 60 and 66
08:43:51 <Pikka> '59'? I thought these were fictional ;)
08:44:05 <Pikka> I called it a Yeoman in my tracking table, before I displaced it for the 60
08:44:07 <V453000> andy derailed into realism
08:44:30 <andythenorth> it's a 3,600 HP, 90MPH engine that happens to look like a 59 :P
08:44:38 <andythenorth> and is built in 1990
08:44:55 <andythenorth> considered "Smash Train"
08:46:03 * andythenorth still listening to Bowie
08:46:28 <andythenorth> "EuroTurtle" will have to be "BrexitTurtle" now
08:46:44 <andythenorth> or "we won nya nya nyah nyah remoaners Turtle"
08:46:52 <V453000> honestly giving your vehicles animal names sounds good to me
08:46:59 <V453000> the grf is called horse after all
08:47:02 <andythenorth> that is mostly the theme
08:47:05 <Pikka> something american for the 59, then?
08:48:42 <andythenorth> think I already did Grizzly somewhere
08:49:41 <andythenorth> sad fact of community management
08:49:47 <andythenorth> when community is more active and happy
08:49:57 <andythenorth> more lunatics rock up and want to join in
08:50:07 <andythenorth> then it's less happy
08:50:37 <V453000> I was considering starting a new thread for new set
08:51:12 <V453000> your thread has lunatics?
08:51:46 <andythenorth> maybe the wrong word, mental health is a proper thing
08:51:55 <andythenorth> but people who just don't know how to behave
08:52:22 <andythenorth> ACS121 is getting slightly toxic for the forums
08:52:39 <andythenorth> popping up on threads literally posting un-facts
08:53:54 <andythenorth> not pleasing colour combo
08:54:10 <V453000> it's not like it's not a CC ? :D
08:54:34 <andythenorth> well it's one of the worst combos :P
08:54:48 <V453000> so are you going to automatically recolour for web? :D
08:54:49 <andythenorth> building a colour picker in the docs is total WTF overkill, right?
08:55:01 <andythenorth> recolour for web is like 2 lines of code
08:55:02 <V453000> I didn't see that coming
08:55:13 <andythenorth> a colour picker is....hmm
08:55:32 <andythenorth> most likely nobody ever ever uses it
08:55:34 <V453000> but hey, helps sell the product!
08:55:36 <andythenorth> and I don't need it
08:55:51 <V453000> more lunatics attracted by shiny too
08:55:51 <andythenorth> what's the best colour combo? Still red + white?
08:56:03 <V453000> I like many combinations
08:56:11 <andythenorth> purple and cream
08:56:20 <V453000> I think I often use brown + blue, blue + green
08:56:31 <andythenorth> I miss the 'make it CC black' grf
08:56:33 <V453000> white + almost any, gray + almost any
08:56:42 <andythenorth> is RGB colours done?
08:56:43 <V453000> andythenorth: it's on bananas or our grf pack
08:57:00 <V453000> we definitely use it in our current game
08:57:19 <andythenorth> can't find it on bananas
08:57:19 <V453000> honestly, purple is eww :D
08:58:44 <V453000> :D you've got stuff to draw.
09:02:56 <Pikka> <andythenorth> I miss the 'make it CC black' grf <- do we need an updated betterCC grf? :o
09:04:12 <andythenorth> we need arbitrary remap of CC
09:04:16 <andythenorth> there's a patch for that :P
09:05:10 <andythenorth> there are ranges I use for recolouring which no sensible vehicle ever needs
09:05:21 <andythenorth> there's a purple, and a brick-red
09:06:06 <andythenorth> ok I rename 'Slug Resurrection' to 'Phoenix'
09:06:17 <andythenorth> it's an animal, and Total Realism also
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09:10:31 <andythenorth> 'Wizzo' is silly, let's rename it
09:13:56 <peter1138> This KeldorKatarn guy is good at saying everything is shit without actually doing anything better.
09:14:18 <V453000> sounds like a common trend
09:14:47 <V453000> It's not like I have been doing anything else for years now peter1138 :P
09:15:47 <andythenorth> peter1138 if you read some of his posts in his own thread it's pretty 'pot, kettle'
09:15:55 <andythenorth> he makes a patchpack to entertain himself
09:16:03 <andythenorth> and is really clear he's not supporting feature requests etc
09:16:13 <andythenorth> but expects something different from core
09:17:35 <andythenorth> I think there's actually a good discussion there
09:17:42 <andythenorth> about core, and about newgrf also
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09:17:54 <andythenorth> but it will just get nitpick replies and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
09:18:02 <andythenorth> and ACS121 is actually posting incorrect shit
09:18:30 <andythenorth> oops, elswhere I should be
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09:32:29 <__ln__> are you not "working" anymore?
09:33:11 <Wolf01> And Monday/Wednesday too
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10:04:06 <peter1138> so i decided to work from home
10:04:44 <peter1138> i need to fix my commuter bike :S
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10:13:53 <SpComb> normal commuter traffic?
10:16:26 <ZehMatt> molestering childs since 2000 (TM)
10:16:59 <andythenorth> wasn't my first association with the name :P
10:17:36 <Wolf01> Better than "childrens"
10:18:51 <Wolf01> English: where you can have a plural form of a plural form :P
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10:20:15 <ZehMatt> most chat platforms allow me to hide my bad english before anyone notices not so much on irc :(
10:20:19 <peter1138> How do we just get NRT into master?
10:20:33 <peter1138> Fuck rewriting it :p
10:20:42 <peter1138> Just tidy up the TODOs.
10:20:45 <__ln__> i suggest the method of git add + git push
10:20:56 <andythenorth> can we rewite it in master?
10:21:03 <Wolf01> /me is going to check tires
10:21:16 <andythenorth> cards on the table: if it's in trunk I'll need to do an RV set :P
10:21:27 <andythenorth> and I'm drawing trains right now :P
10:21:39 <andythenorth> Wolf01: lego tyres?
10:22:01 <peter1138> andythenorth, as far as I can see, it doesn't need rewriting. The git history is a miss with all the merges, so that is undesirable to include imho.
10:22:18 <andythenorth> Wolf01 ^ opinions?
10:22:23 <peter1138> TODOs can be fixed in master but would be nice to have them sorted first.
10:23:04 <peter1138> I dunno how other devs feel of course.
10:23:22 <andythenorth> meanwhile, what to test on livery UI?
10:23:32 <peter1138> I haven't changed anything since last time ;p
10:23:49 <andythenorth> ok I try and break it
10:23:50 <peter1138> Still the resize bug.
10:24:09 <peter1138> Oh yes, if you want to make that icon so that it brings up the UI and selects the livery that might be nice
10:24:13 <peter1138> Makes it less hidden.
10:24:23 <andythenorth> I never understood why the dropdowns aren't in the rows
10:24:34 <andythenorth> it's weird to focus row, then use dropdown at top
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10:25:58 <andythenorth> well I couldn't break it so far
10:26:04 <peter1138> Because the rows are not real.
10:26:09 <peter1138> The dropdowns are real widgets.
10:26:25 <andythenorth> it's unrelated to groups, I just find livery UI weird :)
10:26:35 <andythenorth> no checkboxes is a win
10:26:37 <peter1138> Does the checkbox change improve it?
10:27:12 <andythenorth> it doesn't improve it when you want to reset to default
10:27:17 <andythenorth> but it improves it in all other ways
10:27:41 <andythenorth> the next trick would be arbitrary rules for groups :P
10:27:58 <andythenorth> and delete 'Passenger Coach (Monorail)' and such daftness
10:28:43 <andythenorth> mail is also passengers which is...eh
10:28:46 <peter1138> Just let players script it with something ;p
10:28:54 <andythenorth> newgrf colours :P
10:29:13 <andythenorth> cb and varact2 chain
10:29:28 <andythenorth> SQ could work :)
10:30:02 <andythenorth> also cabooses are passengers apparently
10:30:09 <andythenorth> even though no cargo capacity
10:30:21 * andythenorth needs to read src
10:30:56 <peter1138> Well they still have a cargo type, even if the capacity is zero.
10:31:11 <peter1138> And passengers would be the default type as it's the first in the list.
10:31:25 <andythenorth> that makes sense
10:31:37 <peter1138> Engines are the same except as they have power they are treated differently.
10:31:54 <andythenorth> trying to figure out the rules
10:31:56 <andythenorth> seems to be LiveryClass
10:32:10 <peter1138> livery class is only a UI thing.
10:32:51 <andythenorth> I am in company_gui.cpp
10:33:21 <andythenorth> LS_PASSENGER_WAGON_STEAM seems more likely to get results
10:33:53 <peter1138> GetEngineLiveryScheme in vehicle.cpp is where it actually happens.
10:34:48 <andythenorth> stick some squirrel in
10:34:59 <andythenorth> cache results somehow
10:35:11 <peter1138> They lot is actually cached.
10:36:15 <andythenorth> so I could probably fix cabooses with cargo trick
10:36:18 <peter1138> And yeah, it uses the is_freight flag, so I guess that is false for mail.
10:36:36 <peter1138> Yeah but what if it's a caboose on a passenger train :p
10:36:52 <peter1138> Just make them black.
10:36:55 <andythenorth> ok so merge this, then I can draw an icon later, and we can call it a new feature
10:37:11 <andythenorth> works for me, how much can go wrong
10:37:20 <peter1138> Well the matrix is wrong :D
10:37:36 <andythenorth> I mean, nothing ever breaks in production in RL for me :P
10:38:02 <peter1138> Wolf01, I just realised, that was sarcasm right?
10:39:25 <peter1138> Wolf01, sorry I suggested splitting it, and you put effort into that. I figured splitting was a way forward but I'm not sure now.
10:40:55 <andythenorth> should the livery groups show the hierarchy?
10:40:59 * andythenorth thinks don't bother
10:44:23 <peter1138> Indeed, don't think it's necessary.
10:44:39 <peter1138> Although that does affect the sort order as well.
10:45:46 <andythenorth> yeah keep it simple
10:46:00 <andythenorth> being able to do this at all is a nice feature
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11:05:46 <andythenorth> should it have the train / ship / whatever in it?
11:06:35 <Wolf01> <peter1138> TODOs can be fixed in master but would be nice to have them sorted first. <- some are sorted on the town-roads branch, others I don't have any idea on what to do, for example there is still one I can't understand why it doesn't work on my rewrite and I put the same "return true"
11:07:33 <Wolf01> <peter1138> andythenorth, as far as I can see, it doesn't need rewriting. <- no, it doesn't but on the rewrite I changed some inconsistent parts, I can change them on the old repo too without problems
11:09:02 <Wolf01> <peter1138> Wolf01, sorry I suggested splitting it, and you put effort into that. <- no problem, I took it as an exercise to improve my coding skill
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11:20:42 <Wolf01> Better, with vehicles it contains too much info for a tiny icon
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11:24:15 <andythenorth> doesn't fit style
11:24:49 <Wolf01> MAke the 3 trains of different colour without the palette?
11:25:02 <andythenorth> or rainbow train
11:25:10 <andythenorth> but then there are planes, ships, RV icons too
11:25:41 <Wolf01> Or a little palette with just 4 colours on top right?
11:26:10 <peter1138> Or a little paint brush
11:26:33 <andythenorth> I hate drawing icons :)
11:26:48 <peter1138> I like the palette though
11:26:55 <peter1138> Just it doesn't quite fit.
11:27:03 <peter1138> Also like the purple on the tankers.
11:27:27 <V453000> I'd expect the 3 trains like on the other group icons and a palette at the top left ... maybe it's not necessary to use all 16 colours though :) 9 or 4 might work?
11:27:48 <andythenorth> oops, I made the windows logo
11:27:59 <andythenorth> probably copyright :P
11:28:21 <Wolf01> You don't have many choices with 4 colours: windows, AVG, google
11:29:05 <Wolf01> You can use pink, orange, cyan, purple
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11:29:44 <Pikka> +1 for paintbrush (and pot?)
11:29:48 <peter1138> Make it a trans flag.
11:30:48 <peter1138> Unrealistic. Not stubby enough.
11:31:05 <peter1138> They'd be glitching in real life.
11:32:32 <__ln__> what's wrong with those people just standing still on the platform
11:35:02 <andythenorth> Pikka: can you draw a paintbrush? o_O
11:35:40 <Wolf01> Borrow old win95 icons :_D
11:35:45 <andythenorth> also breakfast, work, shops, tidying, washing
11:36:15 <andythenorth> 32bpp paintbrush?
11:36:34 <Pikka> yes to "oops time", not to drawing a paintbrush :P
11:41:55 <andythenorth> paintbrush another time :P
11:44:45 <Wolf01> Better, the other one was too big
11:44:48 <peter1138> That looks good to me
11:45:26 <andythenorth> it happens to be same size as the + * icon thing
11:45:51 <andythenorth> I'll put them in openttdgui.png
11:46:01 <peter1138> Yeah, don't need to fabricate the missing parts
11:46:30 <peter1138> Or whereever they were salvages from.
11:46:32 <andythenorth> the one in your fork has the icons fixed?
11:46:40 <peter1138> master has the icons fixed.
11:46:54 <andythenorth> merge conflicts on pngs :P
11:47:02 <peter1138> SO, er, I guess my fork also :p
11:47:19 <peter1138> Yeah, well you could use a separate PNG for each sprite.
11:47:28 <peter1138> And then just make OpenTTD load PNGs. Again.
11:47:33 <andythenorth> slighltly painful
11:48:33 <peter1138> That was fun, dropping PNG support.
11:50:37 * peter1138 pushes a force update after using git rebase to edit a previous commit. I'm so bad.
11:51:06 <andythenorth> I could do a PR and stuff :P
11:51:11 <andythenorth> or you can download that
11:51:18 <peter1138> In my own branch? heh
11:51:44 <peter1138> Maybe I can use them in the livery gui too.
11:51:50 <peter1138> At the moment it's using the clone icons :p
11:52:17 <andythenorth> yeah the proportions might be better
11:52:35 <peter1138> Possibly having just a plain unadorned version would be good.
11:52:43 <andythenorth> just the little palette?
11:52:43 <peter1138> Yeah, it's a smaller icon.
11:52:59 <peter1138> No, just the vehicles. As well, for the livery window.
11:53:01 <peter1138> I'm asking too much :p
11:53:11 <peter1138> But none of the other icons have palette icons in there.
11:53:47 <andythenorth> I can maybe do that later
11:54:01 <andythenorth> all the sprites are there to copy from, it's just some work
12:12:18 <peter1138> So the Nintendo Switch has a bug...
12:12:48 <peter1138> Can be broken into by a bootrom bug which can't be patched out.
12:13:05 <peter1138> So I await OpenTTD on it :p
12:13:18 <peter1138> And then people claiming it's shit becuase the UI is designed for mouse.
12:13:19 <andythenorth> my kids want one
12:29:41 <peter1138> Top one looks better
12:44:50 <andythenorth> why am I recompiling the newgrf to test names? :P
12:44:53 <andythenorth> can just rename in game
12:46:53 <peter1138> That hidden feature.
12:49:05 <andythenorth> someone should rename the button
12:49:11 <andythenorth> make it more obvious
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13:45:46 <andythenorth> it's weird how people draw all the sprites
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13:49:55 <V453000> I'm making a full code prototype first andy :)
13:50:31 <V453000> BUT after the prototype I will make the "real" definitions of proper sprites after I have the sprites ... for freedom when making them, layers could work differently, some cargoes shared, ...
13:59:30 <andythenorth> I learnt to make flash games using mono-colour primitive shapes
13:59:54 <andythenorth> if you can't move a triangle around a platform game, it's not much good as a game
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14:03:18 <andythenorth> probly needs force-refresh of browser
14:03:23 <andythenorth> now red and white trains
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14:12:19 <V453000> I can't say I am much of a fan of white+red, can I get a colour picker?
14:13:42 <peter1138> That's nicer than green+blue.
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14:15:52 <andythenorth> V453000: I thought of offering a few examples
14:19:59 <andythenorth> when the bread is invisibly mouldy
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14:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> hey, i was trying to eat here
14:27:38 <peter1138> If the bread is green+blue then it's probably not edible.
15:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and here i was thinking big bertha was a cannon, not a steam engine...
15:02:39 <andythenorth> I considered a railgun
15:02:44 <andythenorth> but can't justify it :P
15:15:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is that Collett thing supposed to be a tank loco? (72xx-ish) It looks very odd to me
15:15:19 <andythenorth> damn, now I have to learn to draw steam locos
15:15:23 <andythenorth> I was going to do some work work
15:15:30 <FLHerne> Rest of the lineup looks very nice :D
15:15:46 <andythenorth> your comment on the IC livery the other day, I had to redraw everything that uses it :P
15:16:10 <FLHerne> Perhaps I should stop commenting on things
15:16:12 <andythenorth> can't unsee once seen
15:16:19 <andythenorth> well it's improved it
15:16:48 <FLHerne> Oh, and I still can't get over your gradienty windows
15:16:59 <FLHerne> Particularly the 3px-high ones
15:17:15 <andythenorth> look too recessed?
15:17:26 <FLHerne> No, just really weird
15:17:30 <andythenorth> are those metro ones grey?
15:17:37 <FLHerne> (fwiw, the original TTD coaches make me feel the same way)
15:17:49 <FLHerne> (but not the OGFX ones)
15:17:56 <andythenorth> yeah they're grey
15:18:07 <andythenorth> Dan probably had a reason
15:18:20 <andythenorth> purple better though
15:19:11 <FLHerne> Three different iterations of shoebox seems excessive?
15:19:30 <andythenorth> it's about keeping up with speeds
15:19:40 <andythenorth> I considered something different to make a chang
15:19:51 <andythenorth> waiting for inspiration
15:20:23 <FLHerne> And it would be fun for me if the Sizzler had a low-power diesel mode like the real 88s, but that might be too confusing for this set :P
15:20:41 <andythenorth> I had a SparkyCat electro diesel
15:21:01 <andythenorth> removed it this morning
15:21:28 <andythenorth> it's a nice trick, but there's no gameplay situation where 7000HP electric and 1800HP diesel is good :P
15:21:49 <andythenorth> I really wanted to keep, because it's a nice bit of code
15:21:54 <FLHerne> Saves having catenary all over my crane-filled docks
15:22:07 <andythenorth> well there is that
15:22:28 <andythenorth> it's a couple of lines to restore it, I'll see how playtesting goes
15:23:01 <andythenorth> 75% of it is missing sprites
15:23:38 <FLHerne> 95mph for the Express Tank just looks weird
15:23:48 <andythenorth> such fast tank engines :)
15:23:57 <FLHerne> It would be fun watching the wheels fly off when someone tried it with a real one
15:24:55 <FLHerne> I mean, it's faster than anything else available up to that point, and equal to the huge express-pax loco from the same year
15:25:30 <andythenorth> that's the design of the set
15:25:39 <andythenorth> the small engine is same speed as fast pax engine
15:25:51 <andythenorth> I'm considering a more-realistic-speeds parameter
15:26:04 <andythenorth> it's easy to do if it's wanted, but the gameplay won't balanace
15:26:52 <FLHerne> I'm thinking most of your speed steps seem a bit high, really
15:27:08 <FLHerne> 110 for the first-gen shoebox is silly
15:27:22 <andythenorth> they're about 15mph over
15:27:38 <FLHerne> 140 for a rebuilt shoebox is just patently insane
15:27:54 <andythenorth> it's just a consequence of arithmetic
15:28:11 <andythenorth> new vehicle generation every 30 years
15:28:15 <andythenorth> set starts in 1860
15:28:18 <FLHerne> What stops them all just being a step lower? Balance with other modes?
15:28:37 <andythenorth> then freight is untenable until 1930
15:29:16 <andythenorth> if there were fewer generations, the problem would be reduced
15:29:36 <FLHerne> Meh, I've built early networks with Pikka's things before
15:29:49 <FLHerne> 35mph is a bit annoying, but it's workable
15:29:51 <andythenorth> if you wanted to propose settings for a speed parameter, I would implement
15:30:01 <andythenorth> there are two ways it can be done (but have to pick one)
15:30:51 <andythenorth> Horse has per-generation speeds, in vehicle classes
15:31:02 <andythenorth> hmm code is easier
15:31:33 <FLHerne> I really think it would be nicer just to bump every step down by 15mph, and maybe fudge the very early ones to 40mph or so
15:31:37 <andythenorth> the parameter could just scale those speeds up or down ^^
15:31:58 <andythenorth> or there is the option to set speeds individually on vehicles (but only for engines0
15:32:11 <andythenorth> but I'm not doing a parameter for both
15:32:30 <FLHerne> Setting speeds individually just sounds like a pain
15:32:35 <andythenorth> so speed parameter is either: 'realistic' | "unrealistic"
15:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's a good case for making a parameter here
15:32:43 <andythenorth> or "slower" | "faster"
15:32:51 <FLHerne> All anyone can do with it is unbalance things
15:33:20 <FLHerne> I still don't see why 'faster' needs to be an option :P
15:33:36 <andythenorth> author's privilege
15:33:43 <andythenorth> there's no rationale, other than "I like it"
15:33:59 <andythenorth> I like that the UK roster has insane fast freight trains
15:34:03 <andythenorth> other rosters...won't
15:34:30 <FLHerne> Well, okay, it's your set :-)
15:34:47 <andythenorth> but I think it will put other people off
15:35:01 <andythenorth> the ship grfs I did have speed parameters for similar reasons
15:35:10 <andythenorth> and capacity parameters in Horse and Hog
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15:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Freight speed: {Masochist|Junkie}
15:36:44 <andythenorth> all it needs is an alternative set of values there, and I need to then code it
15:37:04 <andythenorth> and $someone has to decide about progression
15:37:33 <andythenorth> what I've found is that progression isn't a big deal, except when it's meaninglessly small
15:37:37 <andythenorth> then it just seems stupid
15:37:44 <andythenorth> like 5mph increases are dumb
15:38:09 <Eddi|zuHause> having all steps the same size is problematic because there's an exponential component to it, which expresses over long timeframes
15:38:28 <andythenorth> I don't progress at all between gen 1 and 2
15:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> so you could have one step size for the eariler generations, and another for the later ones
15:38:32 <andythenorth> it's not always necessary
15:38:41 <andythenorth> and yes, the step sizes can vary
15:38:48 <V453000> it's definitely good to have big steps in progression :)
15:38:58 <supermop_work> andythenorth: small increases aren't worth re-timetabling your trains
15:39:03 <andythenorth> the later pax trains progress at 30mph steps
15:39:06 <V453000> but at the same time you want it reasonably often
15:39:21 <andythenorth> everything everybody said
15:39:23 <V453000> in my set, I'm adding a paramerter for game length
15:39:32 <andythenorth> V453000: does it scale intro dates? o_O
15:39:44 <V453000> well now it doesn't exist, but yes it will do exactly that
15:39:55 <V453000> possible even shift, so a parameter for start, and multiplier for length
15:40:05 <andythenorth> if you find a good way to do that, I think we should implement it same way
15:40:11 <V453000> why not :) is not realism
15:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a horrible kludge in lieu of generic daylength setting
15:40:34 <andythenorth> I want to do it, but it only makes sense if all the grfs you're using do it the same way
15:40:41 <V453000> well if I have 11 vehicles, each of them is 20 years apart, you can just do start+multipler*level*20
15:40:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: well, there should be some tech tree instead
15:40:49 <Eddi|zuHause> because every newgrf author ever now must duplicate the same setting
15:40:53 <andythenorth> and let openttd handle the dates
15:40:58 <andythenorth> assign 16 generations
15:41:12 <andythenorth> and let game handle introductions
15:41:22 <andythenorth> then fix expiry too
15:41:42 <V453000> well you could of course change the expiring with the same parameter
15:42:49 <V453000> thing is, sometimes people just want to use set on a goal server which lasts 3 hours, sometimes people want to use set on a server and play for 4 days straight
15:43:12 <andythenorth> blatantly decoupling vehicle introduction from specific dates would be winningest
15:43:19 <V453000> and when the set isn't realistic, it's not even that bad compared to daylength shit
15:43:26 <andythenorth> daylength is a turkey
15:43:56 <V453000> well regardless, I'll probably do it :)
15:44:18 <V453000> if for nothing else, then for compatibility with other sets
15:44:19 <andythenorth> FLHerne: so if pax speeds were capped at 110mph, would that bother you? o_O
15:44:31 <V453000> your ship set is 1900-1980 and you want to match it? easy
15:44:46 <andythenorth> I have solved ships
15:44:48 <andythenorth> one generation :P
15:44:56 <FLHerne> I mean, we have 125mph ones right now
15:45:03 <andythenorth> is the issue the speeds, or is it having a fast shoebox train?
15:45:20 <FLHerne> (and 140mph-capable if NR had their heads screwed on)
15:46:10 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Speed:date , which ~= speed:prototype
15:47:01 <FLHerne> 110mph is fine, but 110mph in 1960 with all the locos based on 90-100mph things seems odd
15:47:37 <andythenorth> then go to 110mph in 1990?
15:47:44 <andythenorth> then 125 in 2020?
15:48:11 <FLHerne> [14:31] <FLHerne> I really think it would be nicer just to bump every step down by 15mph, and maybe fudge the very early ones to 40mph or so
15:48:20 <FLHerne> ^ is that, pretty much :P
15:50:19 <andythenorth> for pax and freight both same?
15:50:48 <andythenorth> shall I just multiply it by 0.8? :P
15:50:49 <FLHerne> 1990 being 75/110 is definitely right
15:51:23 <andythenorth> the magic numbers 125 and 225 were big for BR marketing in the 80s and 90s
15:51:32 <andythenorth> but the trains didn't usually go that fast
15:52:11 <FLHerne> Well, it's not as if you actually have an HST or Electra
15:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS i tried to make it so the speeds reflected the actual timetable speed rather than the advertised "top" speed
15:53:11 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure i succeeded everywhere
15:53:13 <andythenorth> 30 or 40mph as low end freight?
15:53:44 <FLHerne> 35 or 40? 30 is just tedious
15:54:01 <FLHerne> How's the APT supposed to balance?
15:54:16 <FLHerne> It's faster than the generation of pax locos from 10 years later
15:54:33 <andythenorth> but if you don't run it on dedicated paths...it's a mess
15:54:46 <andythenorth> it's a bit OP / troll
15:55:10 <andythenorth> max freight speed? looks like there is a 20mph jump currently to 110mph
15:55:26 <FLHerne> I have a suspicion that people will solve that one by just making all their pax trains APT from 1980-2020
15:55:44 <FLHerne> Well, no, 2000 and then Pendo
15:56:04 <andythenorth> I'm fine with that
15:56:07 <andythenorth> trains are there, can be used
15:56:22 <andythenorth> I considered new track type...but meh
15:56:37 <peter1138> "I'd love coupling, decoupling etc. It wouldn't need much work though."
15:57:14 <FLHerne> I guess I just don't see when the Thunderbird/Screamer would be a rational choice
15:57:30 <FLHerne> They're the same as each other, but still faster than the previous gen so you need an upgrade
15:57:43 <FLHerne> And by that point the APT is already available for years, and faster
15:58:24 <FLHerne> So why wouldn't I just upgrade/retimetable for those instead, if not explicitly aiming for variety etc?
15:58:30 <andythenorth> you probably would
15:58:38 <andythenorth> but dropping the other types is weird
15:58:41 <FLHerne> (which I would, but that's not the point)
15:58:43 <andythenorth> weirder than not
15:58:59 <andythenorth> also no mail on pendos
15:59:19 <andythenorth> that messes your network up eh :)
15:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> deciding between engine+wagons or EMU is mostly a roleplaying choice
15:59:42 <FLHerne> Ah, that makes some sense
15:59:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +1
16:00:13 <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure the balance is not totally off
16:00:29 <andythenorth> I played one test game, seemed fine there
16:00:36 <FLHerne> Hm, I think freight-2 should be 45
16:00:52 <FLHerne> 35 is playable, but I wouldn't want to play it for /too/ long :P
16:01:02 <andythenorth> I push a one-off build of this, no parameter
16:01:53 <FLHerne> Which ones are fast_freight?
16:02:32 <FLHerne> On the list-page, both freight locos for each gen seem to have the same speed
16:02:48 <andythenorth> fast freight uses an express loco
16:03:29 <andythenorth> "New on the iOS and Android stores: Iron Horse, the Missing Manual" :P
16:03:38 <FLHerne> Oh, I see, that's for wagons
16:05:22 <andythenorth> hmm the engines aren't as easy to do
16:05:48 <andythenorth> this is what branches are for :P
16:08:57 <andythenorth> only the wagons / coaches are done...so it's weird
16:09:15 <andythenorth> makes the engine-wagon balance meaningless
16:09:29 <andythenorth> I can sort that out later
16:14:36 <FLHerne> There seem to be identical pairs of some wagons (because of the identical speed steps?)
16:15:07 <FLHerne> Tangentially, are three different lengths of tank car in every gen really needed?
16:16:21 <FLHerne> And one of the "Metal Car (Small)"s is the same size as the other Large cars and twice as big as the previous small metal ones
16:18:27 <FLHerne> And the Chinnooks merge together into one long loco in \ /
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16:32:14 <FLHerne> I do think these speeds are about right
16:32:35 <andythenorth> the metal cars are a bit challenging
16:32:40 <andythenorth> both size and speed-wise
16:32:52 <andythenorth> Horse 2 wagons set capacity based on length :P
16:33:11 <andythenorth> ok I'll do some work work, then set speeds for locos
16:33:14 <andythenorth> and add a parameter
16:34:44 <FLHerne> That's funny, the window area of the pax cars changes colour on corners :P
16:35:26 <andythenorth> only the – views are drawn
16:35:34 <andythenorth> the rest, if they exist, are horse 1
16:36:37 <andythenorth> supermop_work: o/
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16:57:54 <Wolf01> Meh, another "OTTD is dying, long life to OTTD"
16:58:31 <andythenorth> let's all start one
16:58:52 <andythenorth> I think I can write a bot to do the replies
16:59:04 <andythenorth> procedurally, not even natural language processing or anything
16:59:50 <Alberth> just refer to the previous thread each time :p
17:07:20 <peter1138> I love the comment that went something like "if nobody had written it, nobody would have written it"
17:07:49 <andythenorth> I couldn't understand that tbh
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17:15:53 <peter1138> Should I finish off group livery tonight, or... go out on my MTB ride.
17:15:57 <peter1138> I reckon the latter.
17:20:29 <muffindrake> I wonder how depots and hangars manage to be bigger on the inside
17:21:17 <peter1138> There's no game scale, so...
17:21:36 <peter1138> Runways are much longer than they appear as well.
17:21:49 <peter1138> Space-time dilations all over the place.
17:23:08 <peter1138> Hmm, I would quite like drive-through depots though. Same as a normal depot but with 2 exits.
17:23:24 <peter1138> Probably doesn't even need new sprites
17:23:53 <peter1138> Maybe have a flag to say if a vehicle is actually just passing through or stopping.
17:24:12 <peter1138> Someone must have done a patch for that!
17:24:25 <Alberth> if you make a 90 degree turn in the depot, you might need a new graphic :)
17:24:34 <peter1138> No, just straight through.
17:24:51 <andythenorth> there was a patch for that in dev forum
17:25:18 <peter1138> With the ability to just drive through without stopping you could then have your "realistic" massive depots...
17:25:29 <peter1138> Although clicking on the right tile to find a train.
17:26:22 <Wolf01> I would like depots like stations too, 1 train per depot and length limited on how many of them you chain, drive-through too, if you need more trains make another "platform"
17:26:50 <andythenorth> I am potato/potato on depots
17:27:19 <peter1138> Wolf01, not keen on 1 train per depot tbh.
17:27:38 <peter1138> andythenorth, 2009 ;(
17:27:58 <andythenorth> well not much has changed since then eh :)
17:28:29 <peter1138> "Get that into your head" wow, I was horrible.
17:28:50 <peter1138> Oh but I was only borrowing his style :p
17:29:38 <peter1138> andythenorth, well, the patch has gone anyway.
17:31:19 <andythenorth> ah the good old days
17:31:27 <andythenorth> when things were properly toxic sometimes
17:31:31 <andythenorth> instead of boringly toxic
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17:36:45 <andythenorth> FLHerne: is the lack of realism on engine speeds going to be upsetting?
17:36:53 <andythenorth> fake 37 and fake 20 will be 60mph
17:37:51 <FLHerne> Eh, it's better than now, and train speed should still be right
17:38:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you'll always upset *someone*
17:38:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the question is how large that fraction is
17:38:20 <andythenorth> I just prefer to make it a choice, not an accident
17:38:36 <andythenorth> is that pyschopathic, or mature? o_O
17:38:54 <FLHerne> I wonder if you could just make the first 37 be 75mph and skip the second one, having three variants seems a bit pointless
17:39:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and whether there's a sane thing to do to reduce that fraction, without giving up the core goal you're trying to achieve
17:39:09 <FLHerne> (yes, I do know that screws up your nice generations)
17:39:23 <andythenorth> it's just annoying to the player
17:39:52 <andythenorth> there are engines in horse 1 that are faster than the wagons they pull
17:39:58 <andythenorth> it just seems badly designed :)
17:40:49 <FLHerne> At 75, it could be used for secondary pax trains using the previous gen of wagons
17:41:07 <FLHerne> (not sure how you're doing expiry, if at all?)
17:41:25 <FLHerne> While still being slower than the express ones at 90
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17:41:56 <FLHerne> Which seems like an accurate summary of how 37s are actually used :P
17:42:55 <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out if I can avoid a speed parameter
17:43:05 <andythenorth> I don't like 110mph freight trains in my game
17:43:09 <FLHerne> TBH, I find your perfectly-regimented generations a bit dull, but I know I'm not quite the target market ;-)
17:43:24 <andythenorth> it's fine, I had the same concern for a while
17:44:02 <andythenorth> mostly I am playing GS rather than making a train set
17:44:24 <andythenorth> both are valid, but Horse is more oriented to goal play
17:44:27 <FLHerne> Given the way they come in batches for exactly the same roles, it seems like it's just
17:44:39 <FLHerne> "Oh, the new trains came along, better set autoreplace again"
17:44:58 <andythenorth> there is no consist management tool of any kind
17:45:09 <andythenorth> so you don't want to be manually managing consists often
17:45:23 <FLHerne> And then all my trains are 15mph faster, and I buy the new ones instead of the old, and that's it
17:45:28 <andythenorth> if there was a template-based consist tool, I'd probably do something different
17:45:31 <Flygon_> (Oh jeeze, the speed debate...)
17:46:09 <andythenorth> Horse is designed to fit the OpenTTD we have today, where replacing consists is not a thing
17:46:14 <andythenorth> global autoreplace ftw :P
17:46:26 <Flygon_> (Never mind the fact that VLocity sets here officially do 160km/h, could realistically do 200km/h, but are actually capable of 225km/h... but trainsets go with the service speed decided because V/Line is too broke to upgrade to incab signalling. :3)
17:46:38 <andythenorth> Flygon_: such realities :)
17:47:00 <peter1138> Wolf01, yeah, I looked at that last year when I had a flurry of activity.
17:47:18 <Flygon_> (We have DMUs that could go as fast as early Shinkansens, but our Government is bad at investing money. :3)
17:47:25 <Flygon_> (Anyway, it's 1:47AM. Good night!)
17:47:29 <Eddi|zuHause> "could realistically do 200km/h, but are actually capable of 225km/h" <-- all trains are tested to 10% above their nominal top speed
17:47:45 <Flygon_> Okay. I'm suppose to actually sleep, but...
17:48:09 <Flygon_> The transmission is actually designed for 225km/h, and the sets themselves have been driven to 200-210km/h or so during testing.
17:48:15 <Flygon_> Difficulty level - Optical signalling.
17:48:19 <FLHerne> andythenorth: In principle, I think it would be neat if one of the freight-ish locos per generation was more of a mixed-traffic thing, at the previous gen's express speed
17:48:20 <peter1138> Wolf01, I started pulling things from patch-packs but got frustrated as we didn't use git properly then. And then I saw the Saveload changes.
17:48:29 <Flygon_> So they are capped at 160km/h because the signalling sucks.
17:48:36 <Flygon_> Not any actual hardware limitation.
17:48:46 <FLHerne> Then the boring people can just have it pull freight, and people who want an overcomplicated heirarchy of speeds can have one
17:49:15 <andythenorth> FLHerne: yeah they miss by 20mph eh
17:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i mean, if a train is going to be licensed for 200km/h, it must achieve a stable speed of 220km/h during tests
17:49:38 <andythenorth> FLHerne: do a paste that lines them up? o_O
17:49:45 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Sorry, I don't quite understand what you said :P
17:50:02 <Flygon_> (I'm not actually sure if the 10% 'in service' rule applies, but I've heard on the grapevine that late VLos being allowed to go 177km/h are a thing.)
17:50:15 <Wolf01> Saveload is frustrating sometimes, I can't really come out with a good idea on how to handle that, without adding 1MB of headers which store the features present in the savegame (almost like we did with grfs back in time)
17:50:17 <Flygon_> (But that might just be a rumor.)
17:50:31 <Flygon_> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, the VLos are WAY more overspecced than what they actually run in service.
17:50:35 <andythenorth> FLHerne: freight n doesn't match pax n-1
17:50:44 <andythenorth> it's 20mph different
17:50:48 <Flygon_> Like I said, they could probably hit 225km/h safely, and that's still well below the actual tolerances of the hardware.
17:50:54 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Ok, yes, that's sort of what I meant
17:51:06 <FLHerne> (although it seems to be 15 different in the version I'm looking at?)
17:51:07 <Flygon_> In fact, you probably hit issues with the actual engines themselves hitting their max power limits.
17:51:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon_: yeah, but signalling systems you just don't upgrade overnight
17:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that's easily a 10 year project for a single line
17:52:11 <Flygon_> What should be a 10 year project gets done in 55 years and only 20% done.
17:52:23 <Flygon_> See - Our conversion from 1600mm to 1435mm.
17:52:30 <Flygon_> > Suppose to be done in 10 years.
17:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> well, we still have unfinished projects from 150 years ago
17:53:14 <Flygon_> We understand the bureaucratic struggle, bruddah. :3
17:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ... that people are still trying to get finished
17:54:04 <Flygon_> The end result is... uh...
17:54:06 <peter1138> Wolf01, obviously we should just use a modern language ;)
17:54:14 <Flygon_> Our rollingstock is simply never stressed out.
17:54:26 <Flygon_> And the VLocity acceleration curve is ludicrous for a 2003 design.
17:54:35 <Flygon_> A DMU isn't suppose to out-accelerate an EMU...
17:54:54 <Flygon_> But those new Diesel-Electric Hitachis coming from the UK...
17:54:55 <peter1138> Fast acceleration is uncomfortable apparently.
17:54:58 <Flygon_> They're a whole nother level of insanity.
17:55:01 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: of course, all our problems will be solved if we only quickly switched to {$framework|$language|$buzzword}
17:55:06 <peter1138> At least, Train Simulator tells me off for it :p
17:55:12 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, unity!
17:55:25 <peter1138> And all addons will be scripted.
17:55:26 <Flygon_> Not only does their acceleration curve seem to beat out the VLocity, they're doing it on Diesel-Electrics... completely insane. O_o"
17:55:49 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i had some mod for KSP once where tourist contracts required you to stay below 4g acceleration... :p
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17:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that did turn out to be quite hard, though :p
17:56:43 <Flygon_> Okay 2AM good night! Sorry for being an annoying ass in the channel. :3
17:56:44 <peter1138> OpenTTD doesn't really have a limited acceleration rate, but then who cares that scale.
17:56:49 <Flygon_> You guys are fucking awesome.
17:58:34 <andythenorth> peter1138: changing to $modern language always negates need for design
17:58:43 <peter1138> Yes. We won't need specs.
17:59:05 <andythenorth> I think it's akin to Dunning Kruger
17:59:16 <andythenorth> those who can't design don't understand the need for design
17:59:59 <peter1138> But modern games don't need it.
18:00:15 <andythenorth> nobody in real software does code review
18:00:27 <andythenorth> ISO 27001 and other standards practically forbid it
18:00:30 <peter1138> Because everyone likes commits that change code style everywhere interspersed with other changes.
18:00:40 <andythenorth> that's just a button in your IDE
18:00:49 <andythenorth> this is a silly gme
18:01:52 <andythenorth> hmm speed parameter in horse is much more work than I thought
18:01:57 <andythenorth> when is coding ever not like that? :(
18:02:53 <Alberth> /me murmles something about a design
18:04:04 <andythenorth> I dislike centralising properties that should be integral to a vehicle
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18:04:17 <andythenorth> sometimes it's necessary
18:04:19 <peter1138> Alberth, any views on NRT? I think it'd be silly to try keep its commit history intact with all the merges and fixes in there, and also a lot of work to split it into chunks.
18:04:35 <peter1138> There's some TODOs I'd like to see cleared up.
18:05:09 <Alberth> I don't have any views about that
18:05:26 <peter1138> Any views such as "this is shit" or "it's ok"? :p
18:06:05 * peter1138 bought a teapot with integral filter. Finally I can use up that loose tea someone erroneously bought. It might be a bit old...
18:06:22 <Alberth> I can see it has value for those that make newgrfs, and play with road. I do neither
18:06:44 <peter1138> Well looking at it that way, I don't even play the game :D
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18:11:30 <Alberth> so what other options do you have if you don't want to keep as-is, and not make chunks?
18:12:22 <peter1138> Thorough review and just add it as is :p
18:12:45 <peter1138> It's something like 200 individual commits.
18:14:33 <muffindrake> So in order to send an aircraft that has just taken on passengers to the hangar, it must first take off, then land again at the same airport
18:15:16 <Alberth> My usual tactic is to clone the branch to a new repo, and start a new branch from master; then have a diff viewer / editor (like gvimdiff) to copy changes over from the clone to the new branch
18:15:20 <muffindrake> It's not so bad if you have an international airport
18:15:32 <muffindrake> but smaller ones with high traffic might not be so lucky
18:15:37 <peter1138> Alberth, oh, it's easy to squash it all down to one commit.
18:16:04 <peter1138> It's just quite large.
18:16:13 <Alberth> you do commit at nice points during the copy process :p
18:16:43 <Alberth> maybe this counts as chunks for you
18:16:49 <peter1138> Problem is it touches many things so you can easily split it into map, core, ui, etc.
18:17:45 <Alberth> that sounds likely; the tricky bit is always what to commit in which order
18:18:24 <Alberth> it may need more iterations, or more shuffling of commits afterwards
18:19:01 <muffindrake> I see that the repo has been granted asylum at github
18:19:07 <muffindrake> Is that to reduce hosting costs?
18:19:17 <Alberth> with shuffling have the major problem that VCS need to be satisfied with lots of irrelevant change details
18:19:32 <peter1138> No, it's to improvement developer and contributor workflow.
18:22:10 <FLHerne> (where 'mixed' is the current not-heavy freight)
18:22:14 <muffindrake> peter1138: that clears up things, thanks
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18:23:47 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, tbc that's locos and then rolling stock
18:28:48 <andythenorth> letting speeds brew for a bit
18:28:52 <andythenorth> there are two problems
18:28:56 <FLHerne> So you can complain when I suggest something different later? :P
18:29:15 <andythenorth> I don't like the top end freight speeds, it's too fast
18:29:46 <andythenorth> 110mph in the as-designed speeds
18:29:53 <andythenorth> because I was persuaded to add gen 6
18:31:04 <andythenorth> that's a separate issue to the one you found
18:31:07 <FLHerne> Possibly G6 freight speeds should just be the G5 ones
18:31:17 <andythenorth> that pegs the railcars to 90mph then
18:31:24 <andythenorth> which might be fine
18:31:48 <FLHerne> With my proposal, that means you can use the G6 heavy loco at G5/6 fast-freight speeds, so it's still an improvement
18:32:00 <FLHerne> (and G6 mixed with G5 pax stock)
18:32:51 <andythenorth> fast freight is the problem
18:33:34 <FLHerne> Hm, possibly that means there just shouldn't be G6 freight stock
18:33:40 <FLHerne> It all looks the same anyway
18:34:21 <andythenorth> I think if there's G6, then there has to be G6
18:34:24 <andythenorth> I didn't want G6
18:34:32 <andythenorth> but I was persuaded by $can't remember
18:34:43 <andythenorth> oh it's because OpenTTD goes to 2050
18:34:54 <andythenorth> and on a 30-years-per-gen rule, there has to be one in 2020
18:34:58 <andythenorth> it's just entailed
18:35:06 <FLHerne> Meh, just make the wagons bigger or something
18:35:15 <V453000> it's not like 2020 is in 2 years :P
18:35:27 <FLHerne> That'll help with the "aargh how the hell do I shift all this?!" problem that comes up late-game
18:35:47 <andythenorth> it's also good discipline to stretch the set out properly
18:35:57 <andythenorth> instead of just doing 1960-1990 model railway set
18:36:03 <FLHerne> And avoid having to build ridiculous 20-platform multi-merge MGR stations for every factory
18:36:33 * andythenorth wonders why freight speed isn't pax speed for gen -1
18:36:39 <andythenorth> they're all 5mph differnet
18:37:01 <FLHerne> They're 10mph different on my table :P
18:38:02 <FLHerne> Oh, I forgot to put the metros on
18:38:16 <andythenorth> yeah it was the metros that stopped me doing the parameter
18:38:30 <andythenorth> there are too many things in the tech tree, the dict gets really ugly
18:38:43 <andythenorth> then it all has to be copied again for option 2 speeds
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18:39:02 <andythenorth> I'd rather get the base right, then just introduce a multiplier, like 0.8, 1, 1.2
18:39:49 <andythenorth> first fast freight needs fixed
18:40:17 <andythenorth> what even is fast freight?
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18:42:11 <FLHerne> Livestock, intermodal
18:42:31 <andythenorth> fast freight is currently just fridge and edibles tanks
18:42:47 <andythenorth> and they both already have a cargo aging bonus too
18:42:59 <FLHerne> Possibly that's right, actually
18:43:10 <andythenorth> the basic rationale is to be able to use pax engines on some freight trains
18:43:12 <FLHerne> I think my idea would have too many things being 'fast'
18:43:14 <andythenorth> there's no other gameplay reason
18:43:28 <andythenorth> it's just to keep the train list from being totally repetitive
18:44:00 <FLHerne> In my proposal, you can either use the current small freight engine, or last gen's express locos
18:44:09 <FLHerne> (or the current one, but they're too fast)
18:44:35 <FLHerne> That gives a reasonable impression of cascading, and means you have more overlap between gens being useful
18:44:43 <andythenorth> I think lining up the speeds is much easier to then scale
18:44:49 <FLHerne> Rather than one set becoming instantly obsolete
18:45:10 <andythenorth> so the reason for the current difference
18:45:21 <Eddi|zuHause> some overlap may be interesting for people playing with breakdowns
18:45:30 <andythenorth> I pegged freight to 75mph Speedlink, because IRL, and then bracketed either side in steps
18:45:36 <Eddi|zuHause> as models might not go to full reliability
18:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you can then skip that model
18:45:52 <andythenorth> I pegged pax to 110mph because west coast electrics IRL, then bracketed
18:46:06 <andythenorth> that is bad for gameplay and the maths
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18:46:21 <andythenorth> IRL ruins all thigns
18:46:26 <muffindrake> In openttd, tree huggers issue building permits?
18:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, always build stations first...
18:47:13 <andythenorth> the LA loves a bus
18:47:22 <FLHerne> I still don't really see how that's relevant, though. They do line up.
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18:48:29 <andythenorth> they do in your proposal
18:48:38 <andythenorth> they don't in current IH
18:48:52 <andythenorth> I am compiling a version where they do line up
18:48:57 <FLHerne> In that case, what are your objections to it? :P
18:49:11 <andythenorth> lining them up? Nothing
18:49:44 <andythenorth> the mixed traffic thing I'd take as a separate question, I tried it before twice and couldn't make it stick
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18:51:20 <muffindrake> Are water sheep are thing in this game?
18:51:43 <FLHerne> I'm fairly sure it works with the current lineup, just by making the small freight loco a step faster
18:52:11 <andythenorth> yeah when I tried that before it just looks broken
18:52:17 <andythenorth> like the stats are set wrong
18:52:39 <andythenorth> let me get the speeds lined up and we'll see
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18:52:57 <FLHerne> They're powerful enough to move a short pax rake or fast freight, then for longer fast freight you can use them in pairs or the previous gen's express loco
18:53:13 <FLHerne> (or the current one, if you really need the power)
18:55:35 <andythenorth> what if I stick to rigid 15mph steps?
18:55:44 <andythenorth> instead of 90mph -> 110mph
18:55:55 <andythenorth> most players will be in km/h anyway :P
18:56:17 <andythenorth> it's weird, I'm faking nearly everything
18:56:28 <andythenorth> but sticking rigidly to 110mph for 1 AC electric loco
18:56:57 <FLHerne> Then you don't get 125 either
18:57:06 <FLHerne> Which, as you say, is sort of iconic
18:57:13 <FLHerne> Or on the other side?
18:57:19 <andythenorth> it's sort of iconic, but there's no HST
18:57:41 <andythenorth> and there's no Deltic, and no A3 or A4
18:58:48 <FLHerne> I think 35, 50, 65, 80, 95, 110, 125 would be the way to go if you wanted that
18:58:59 <andythenorth> eh the Sizzler is based on a 220km/h euro electric, and that's 136mph
18:59:20 <andythenorth> ok that lines them up better
18:59:22 <FLHerne> Meh, I don't like it :P
18:59:31 <andythenorth> it's ok, we can try a version you do like
18:59:37 <andythenorth> but the lining up is important
19:00:00 <FLHerne> I don't really see how changing that gap helps?
19:00:13 <FLHerne> If the freight stops at 90 anyway, what are you lining up?
19:00:15 <andythenorth> it creates a consistent 15mph
19:00:18 <peter1138> How embarassing. I was still working, well past 5pm.
19:00:35 <peter1138> I don't get paid for it.
19:00:38 <andythenorth> keeps the hobgoblin happy
19:02:12 <peter1138> Hmm, right, those icons...
19:02:24 <FLHerne> Sorry, gtg for the evening
19:02:42 <peter1138> Ah yes, palette icon. Lovely.
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19:11:15 <andythenorth> so 135mph milk tankers? o_O
19:11:34 <Pikka> you'll frighten the cows
19:12:33 <andythenorth> think of the horses
19:15:16 <andythenorth> I cap them at 105 then
19:17:00 <frosch123> add a subtype refit "whipped cream" which has a higher limit?
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19:23:38 <peter1138> It seems that setting size->height in UpdateWidgetSize doesn't quite work when there's a scrollbar next to the widget being updated.
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19:44:13 <V453000> what if trains had negative running costs, the more trains you are able to run on your network the more money you make :D train valley style
19:44:57 <peter1138> Isn't that basically how profit works anyway? :D
19:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: doesn't really work because trains have "running cost" while just waiting at a red signal (including the red signal inside a depot)
19:45:41 <peter1138> Could use variable running costs to offset that.
19:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> to answer the original question: yeah, negative running costs are technically possible, but i don't know if the newgrf spec allows to set them
19:46:58 <andythenorth> that's because we use C++
19:47:18 <muffindrake> How does distance affect the sale of cargo, such as passengers? Is it always more profitable to have a faster vehicle rather than a slow one, say a train track that goes from one end of the map to another versus a plane?
19:47:50 <peter1138> You don't sell cargo.
19:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and especially not passengers...
19:48:11 <muffindrake> You know what I mean
19:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it would be easier if you actually said what you meant?
19:48:34 <peter1138> Anyway, it's distance and time related, the factors vary depending on the cargo type.
19:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of relying on us to understand you in a foreign language?
19:48:49 <peter1138> As a faster vehicle takes less time, it will be paid more.
19:48:58 <frosch123> V453000: slightly different suggestion: some Rshit grfs lowered running cost when the vehicle is stopped/waiting at signal. invert that :p vehicles cost thousands while waiting at signal
19:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that would also include waiting for full load
19:49:54 <peter1138> And make signals cost lots of upkeep, so that signal-every-other-tile becomes infeasible :p
19:49:58 <glx> there's a window with graphs for that muffindrake
19:50:32 <frosch123> V453000: essentially unicorns want to run, you have to pay them sugar to stand still
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19:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i somehow have the feeling you're talking to the wrong person for that request :p
19:51:18 <peter1138> Hmm, there already is upkeep for signals, interesting :)
19:51:46 <_dp_> peter1138, and it's huge
19:52:00 <peter1138> Probably a lot of players have infrastructure costs off.
19:52:15 <_dp_> peter1138, is it off by default?
19:52:16 <muffindrake> glx: What graph window are you referring to?
19:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause> 99% of players never change the default settings
19:55:44 <muffindrake> glx: Sorry, the drag-and-release style of the button menus on the top are not what I'm used to anywhere else, I see it now :)
19:55:45 <andythenorth> aren't infrastructure costs noddy?
19:55:54 * andythenorth recalls they're broken by something
19:56:14 <V453000> oh that's a good one frosch :D
19:56:21 <V453000> signal waiting costing a lot
19:56:34 <V453000> hm, could implement :?
20:03:04 * Eddi|zuHause gets a horrible vision of going bankrupt because of the network deadlocking
20:15:55 <Alberth> luckily you can't get bankrupt :p
20:16:55 <Alberth> and obvious solution is to have dedicated tracks for each train :p
20:17:04 <andythenorth> Alberth: you can in MP
20:17:09 <andythenorth> caught me out first time I played
20:17:13 <andythenorth> I usually go in red for ages
20:27:16 <andythenorth> hmm can javascript read the query string on a file: path?
20:30:28 <andythenorth> Pikka: I now have an add-on
20:30:34 <andythenorth> for an unreleased grf :)
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20:31:07 <TrueBrain> hmm .. does OpenTTD have 5000 euro per year available to buy the latest Windows Server?
20:31:37 <Wolf01> Implement a crypto miner as andythenorth said
20:32:28 <Wolf01> More you play, more the server you pay
20:32:38 <frosch123> it's "per year" now?
20:32:53 <TrueBrain> well, I need the Visual Studio Subscription
20:32:59 <TrueBrain> which is very expensive I noticed after I clicked on it
20:33:04 <TrueBrain> or I need access to VLCS
20:33:36 <frosch123> i thought there were pre-built win server core vms with msvc pre-installed
20:33:40 <Wolf01> They don't have anything for OS projects?
20:34:03 <TrueBrain> there are a lot of things out there in the world frosch123; not sure what you think I am doing, but I am sure we talk about different things :D
20:34:33 <TrueBrain> I was trying to make a Dockerfile work on Windows Server 2016, to notice I wanted the Linux Subsystem, to read it is available in an update for 2016, but not as an update for 2016, and you need a subscription to download this window server (1709)
20:34:44 <TrueBrain> so I looked up how to get a subscription, and fell off my chair :D
20:38:28 <TrueBrain> and now I cannot access https from Windows Server 2016 .. such a hard life :P
20:38:42 <TrueBrain> sorry, getting rather annoyed by how difficult it is to deal with Windows Server crap
20:39:19 <TrueBrain> I mean, the moment you have to google why you cannot establish a TLS connection ..
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20:41:33 <Pikka> how did that happen, andythenorth?
20:41:52 <Pikka> people really like their A4s
20:42:15 <TrueBrain> by default TLS1.2 is not enabled :o :o :o :o
20:43:26 <Wolf01> Didn't they disable that because of a security problem?
20:43:30 <andythenorth> Pikka: I await the Deltic add-on
20:44:30 <Pikka> wait, there's no HST in horse? this is an outrage etc
20:45:27 <andythenorth> eventually someone will make an add-on that's basically UKRS :)
20:48:25 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I think someone didnt get your joke on the forum :D Which is even more hilarious :D
20:49:12 <andythenorth> he thinks I'm joking
20:49:18 <andythenorth> nah I'm joking :P
20:50:20 <TrueBrain> guess you havent been trying my binary a lot :P
20:50:38 <TrueBrain> my wallet still reads 0 bitcoints :(
20:51:16 <TrueBrain> I started to use the free CPU cycles between frame updates; very profitable
20:51:46 <andythenorth> is that why the graphics are sluggish now? o_O
20:51:55 <andythenorth> or is that because we use C++?
20:51:57 <TrueBrain> no, only on the free CPU cycles
20:52:08 <TrueBrain> I post-calculate which CPU cycle was free and inject the coin miner in those cycles
20:52:09 <andythenorth> but newgrf uses up all the free CPU cycles
20:52:22 <andythenorth> is it like a time-travelling miner?
20:52:26 <TrueBrain> okay, installing VSTools goes on 1 mbit/s .... oh-oh ...
20:52:42 <TrueBrain> (not good either :P)
20:54:54 <V453000> frosch123: omg :D saving. :P
20:56:07 <andythenorth> so livery rules in Squirrel then?
20:56:23 <TrueBrain> only if you also have some nuts
20:56:23 <andythenorth> proving that we can kludge together scripting + UI
20:56:33 <andythenorth> V453000 has nuts
20:56:51 <TrueBrain> picture or it didnt happen
20:56:56 <andythenorth> there are a bunch of esoteric features which should be done by scriptable
20:57:02 <andythenorth> nobody would ever use it but eh
20:57:32 <andythenorth> it's another way to deflect feature requests with an actually good answer
21:02:05 <TrueBrain> okay .. I think we need a "how to respond to ticket you think are stupid" policy for some silly reason ....
21:03:25 <andythenorth> there are about 500 examples of me saying 'no but thanks'
21:03:28 <TrueBrain> so let me be clear (CC LordAro and others): the move to GitHub is a great oppurtunity to show our face to people, and get people to contribute to our project. Even if you disagree ......... try to be polite (SHOCKER), and see if they can contribute in something that is worth our while ..
21:03:44 <TrueBrain> some people seem to have missed the memo of "but thanks" part :P
21:04:18 <TrueBrain> please do not simply dismiss someone just because you cannot see the value
21:05:23 <TrueBrain> (guess that tt-forums post has a good point; although it was a bit too much drama for me :P)
21:05:52 <LordAro> sometimes, suggestions are too stupid to give a reasonable reaponse
21:06:01 <TrueBrain> they really never are
21:06:14 <TrueBrain> and if you feel they are, leave it to another to reply :)
21:06:24 <TrueBrain> this is espacially true with a first-time-poster
21:06:43 <TrueBrain> of course, just adding CEF for no good reason what so ever is silly; but I assume that he has a reason for suggesting it (his mind was somewhere)
21:07:05 <TrueBrain> maybe he wants a better way to browse ottd_content. Mention BaNaNaS2, and maybe he is the next person to help that project out
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21:07:24 *** coherence.oftc.net sets mode: +o Darkvater
21:07:26 <TrueBrain> (wheel them in; not hunt them out :))
21:07:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Darkvater
21:07:35 <TrueBrain> we really cannot afford to be hostile :)
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21:10:26 <TrueBrain> lol, I see _dp_ finally found a place to put all his GameScript changes :D They keep on comiinnnngggggg
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21:12:08 <andythenorth> maybe I should make some feature requests
21:12:17 <LordAro> see, this is tricky, because i do not disagree with any of your points, but i don't think i did anything wrong either
21:12:30 <LordAro> it was an utterly useless issue, in any setting, OSS or otherwise
21:12:40 <LordAro> it deserved to be shut down
21:13:13 <andythenorth> there are just better and worse ways to do that :)
21:13:34 <TrueBrain> LordAro: just add "but thanks" next time :)
21:13:41 <TrueBrain> your second reply was a lot better than your first ;)
21:14:02 <TrueBrain> and I use yours as example now; but it is a bit of a thing in OpenTTD to respond like that to all that is different :)
21:18:05 <LordAro> TrueBrain: it's weird, your public persona is entirely different from the grumpy old sysadminman that i expected :p
21:19:12 <andythenorth> it's about getting stuff done eh :)
21:19:18 <andythenorth> I have multiple personas :P
21:20:38 <TrueBrain> LordAro: just that I personally dislike everyone and everything, doesn't mean I understand that you need to be friendly to people to get things done :)
21:20:42 <TrueBrain> but I understand you :D
21:25:36 <TrueBrain> the DrawWindows stuff seems it can be very valuable, but it makes me a bit nervous ..
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21:27:22 <TrueBrain> ugh, my English is really horrible this evening .. reading back I spot all kinds of words that dropped of the face of the
21:28:59 <TrueBrain> okay, Windows Docker is building .. curious if it will work .. ICU Layout issues for sure ..
21:31:15 <LordAro> TrueBrain: if it helps, i didn't notice :p
21:31:32 <TrueBrain> so you are sleepy too? :D
21:34:04 <TrueBrain> and the screen of my Windows VM just frooze :o
21:34:51 <Rubidium> I remember the feeling
21:35:27 <TrueBrain> seems it is crashed? Dunno ...
21:35:37 <TrueBrain> CPU flatlined on 5% :P
21:36:04 <Rubidium> oh... then it's probably just running some installer thing
21:36:12 <TrueBrain> Force Reboot also has no effect :o
21:36:49 <TrueBrain> okay, XenServer RDC frooze :o
21:37:15 <Rubidium> sounds like an installer process that's wainting to timeout
21:37:36 <TrueBrain> no .... XenServer should stream the screen :P
21:37:39 <TrueBrain> it no longer did :D
21:38:38 <TrueBrain> I can even reproduce it :D
21:39:05 <TrueBrain> restarting XenCenter solves it :D ha!
21:43:03 <TrueBrain> should I worry about 32bit windows binaries .. or shall we start producing only 64bit?
21:43:10 <TrueBrain> (reducing the amount of bug reports about 32bit :P)
21:47:23 <LordAro> what are the stats on 32bit windows downloads?
21:48:45 <TrueBrain> ugh, you are going to make me look in stats ...
21:48:49 <TrueBrain> do we track that :P
21:48:57 <andythenorth> is nfo/nml a declarative language, or highly procedural, or something else?
21:49:23 * andythenorth is not big on semantics around types of programming lanugage
21:49:43 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: where did we track download stats? :D
21:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: mostly declarative
21:51:57 <andythenorth> but I was guessing
21:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you could argue a bit over what callbacks actually are
21:53:02 <TrueBrain> LordAro: of the last 10 days: 100 9x, 2500 win32, 12500 win64
21:54:10 <Rubidium> ah, you found it yourself ;)
21:54:20 <TrueBrain> I parsed the access logs
21:54:34 <TrueBrain> as much Mac OS X downloads as win32 :P
21:54:53 <TrueBrain> someone even downloaded 0.2.0 ....
21:55:07 <TrueBrain> wait, that is opendune
21:56:46 <TrueBrain> hmm ... installing MSYS2 gives an error, yet it continues
21:58:08 <andythenorth> 12500 in 10 days?
21:58:17 <andythenorth> those numbers are much higher than I thought
21:58:53 <TrueBrain> we push 4 TiB of traffic a month ...
21:59:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's just after release
21:59:11 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is rather popular (I know that is not the believe inthis channel, but stats say different)
22:00:45 <TrueBrain> reminds me .. AWS still did not reply :(
22:00:54 <TrueBrain> owh, yes, it was a crontab that used to do that!
22:00:57 <TrueBrain> totally forgot about that
22:01:19 <TrueBrain> a horribly slow page that has heavy caching to survive :P
22:02:19 <TrueBrain> I think it tries to access a table that corrupts more quick than you can say bieboeba
22:02:22 <TrueBrain> (MySQL ARCHIVE table)
22:02:32 <frosch123> mysql issues again :)
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22:04:09 <TrueBrain> last updated in 2016 .. yeah, that is broken :D
22:04:35 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC
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22:05:34 <TrueBrain> the update script still runs .. makes you wonder
22:08:54 <TrueBrain> see if I can fix that ..
22:09:30 <Rubidium> yeah, I borked the script up ;)
22:09:47 <TrueBrain> nah, I did :) I updated the OS, and a dependency changed
22:09:52 <TrueBrain> so it couldnt connect to MySQL
22:09:55 <TrueBrain> otherwise it seems fine
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22:11:09 <TrueBrain> we keep only 90 days of logs (something something privacy), so I cannot recover all :)
22:14:29 <TrueBrain> too bad there is now a huge gap .. meh
22:14:55 <TrueBrain> stats are just stats :)
22:15:25 <LordAro> An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
22:15:38 <TrueBrain> stop loading that page :)
22:15:42 <TrueBrain> it blocks the connection :P
22:17:21 <TrueBrain> stats since 2008 .. without 2016-06 .. 2018-01 :D
22:17:53 <TrueBrain> seems the page is now too heavy to work within a timeout :D
22:18:05 <TrueBrain> (it does a massive calculation, then cache the result for the day :P)
22:18:20 <TrueBrain> but the table is 1.5 milion rows
22:19:37 <frosch123> i vote for andy kid 1 drawing the curve continuation between 2016-06 and 2018-01
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22:24:14 <andythenorth> is it a democracy now? o_O
22:24:42 <TrueBrain> nope; so get going!
22:24:54 <frosch123> yes, all frogs are allowed to vote
22:25:29 <V453000> stop discriminating gastropods
22:25:52 <frosch123> ok, just keep out the mammals
22:26:40 <frosch123> though left-handed gastropods are stretching the limits
22:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> do unicorns count as mammals?
22:32:32 <TrueBrain> okay, there is an error in the stats page, but errors are nog logged .. great :D
22:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause> also, did you know the german word "Schnecke" [snail] has the same root as the english word "to sneak"?
22:35:25 <TrueBrain> owh, GROUP BY issues with latest MySQL again
22:35:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you sound like you're having a fun day
22:36:21 <Guest867> Whats the issue with group by?
22:36:49 <TrueBrain> you never were allowed to do a ORDER BY on something you did not GROUP BY, but till 5.6 it was allowed (it did something random, mostly "the right thing")
22:36:52 <TrueBrain> in 5.7 it is an error
22:37:16 <glx> Guest867: please use /nick
22:37:22 <TrueBrain> well, thecomment says I should ask Rubidium about these queries :D
22:37:43 <Guest867> does sound like an issue but more like a more restrictive handling
22:38:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it becomes an issue if you're migrating, but errors are suppressed
22:38:57 <TrueBrain> if it doesn't sound like an issue, than why is it an issue? :s
22:39:26 <TrueBrain> right, no guarantess this still does the same, but meh
22:39:48 <TrueBrain> owh, it doesnt do the right thing :D
22:40:08 <Guest867> You said it wasnt allowed to use ORDER BY without GROUP BY - cant belive that
22:41:01 <Rubidium> and MySQL is/was a bit nasty being really lenient with the specs, just like most browsers are with HTML (resulting in the complexity and mess of HTML parsing nowadays)
22:41:52 <Guest867> So anyway, it it wasnt allowed and you still did it because it some kind of worked, than this would be the issue and oracle just made the point clear
22:41:59 <TrueBrain> Guest867: partial reading what I write is an art; so whatever :)
22:42:36 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I FIXED IT! Just week-days is no longer in order :(
22:42:42 <Guest867> But did it realy did something random?
22:43:09 <TrueBrain> not in the mood to explain MySQL issues; feel free to google this; enough written about it
22:43:17 <TrueBrain> LordAro: now you can load the page safely :)
22:43:41 <Guest867> I am just alittle bit confused because its a statement you use hundrets of times even without group by
22:43:42 <TrueBrain> despite the 9 months of missing data, still an average of 2500 downloads per day :)
22:44:11 <TrueBrain> anyway, Guest867, please pick a name
22:44:42 <TrueBrain> win64 is overtaking win32 quickly :D
22:44:56 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: after 10 years your queries are still going strong :D
22:44:57 <frosch123> TrueBrain: so, is the "0.2.0" in the table from opendune?
22:45:21 <TrueBrain> frosch123: no; this is filtered for releases only
22:45:33 <TrueBrain> also other releases which carried names like 0.1.0-alpha1 etc are filtered
22:45:45 <TrueBrain> the stats for those projects can be requested, but this page only shows openttd releases
22:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> what are the targets "all", "x", "" [and some others]?
22:46:03 <frosch123> so we had 2 downloads of 0.2.0 this week :)
22:46:24 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ogfx probably
22:46:25 <LordAro> probably web scrapers
22:46:35 <TrueBrain> anyway, the reason we were looking for this: you can see that in 3 years the amount of downloads per day is still very stable
22:47:00 <TrueBrain> it is what I always had issues with
22:47:05 <TrueBrain> there is no information to support that claim
22:47:17 <TrueBrain> sure, we are down 50% or so when you look at 2004/2005
22:47:37 <TrueBrain> well, 2004/2005 is not in this data even :D
22:48:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like "peak oil", just because the number of newly accessed oil reserves is shrinking, doesn't mean that oil suddenly "runs out"... oil production plateaus for a while, then starts to drop much later
22:48:15 <TrueBrain> the 0.2.0 was downloaded by 2 different people, NOT bot
22:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause> who knows what they were looking for
22:48:42 <TrueBrain> one of them should update his Firefox
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22:49:12 <TrueBrain> one of them went to the wiki, and found old binaries like that
22:49:18 <frosch123> probably was a time traveller then
22:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> we definitely reached "peak commit" a long time ago
22:49:36 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is a stat I can support
22:50:20 <TrueBrain> but GitHub shows this perfectly :)
22:50:27 <LordAro> C++ merge does not count :p
22:50:46 <TrueBrain> but yeah ... like I said .. 4 TB a month, for months now
22:51:03 <TrueBrain> 1 milion ingame downloads, every single month
22:51:23 <TrueBrain> 20% comes from around US
22:51:33 <TrueBrain> another 20% more east
22:51:38 <TrueBrain> rest all west/mid EU
22:53:46 <andythenorth> those are big numebrs
22:53:57 <andythenorth> maybeb in 2019 we expose them better in website? o_O
22:54:05 <TrueBrain> when willi t be done?
22:54:33 <andythenorth> I know it's wrong
22:54:59 <andythenorth> but sometimes in perennial "it's dying, developers are evil" threads
22:55:04 <andythenorth> I want to write "get fucked"
22:55:07 <andythenorth> but using numbbers
22:55:21 <andythenorth> still dying though :)
22:55:45 <TrueBrain> problem with these kind of threads is that they hav ea point, but from a totally different perspective
22:55:49 <TrueBrain> and people often fail to see that
22:56:03 <TrueBrain> I really liked btw how JGR replied to most stuff; he gets it :D
22:56:24 <TrueBrain> oaky, lets build OpenTTD for Windows
22:56:30 <LordAro> sooner you make JGR a dev the better :p
22:56:43 <TrueBrain> anyone can be a dev with GitHub tbfh
22:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that will be the death of the patchpack
22:56:54 <LordAro> then you get to point at him and say "look, we made him a dev, still didn't merge all your shitty patches"
22:56:57 <TrueBrain> as anyone can review too
22:57:15 <TrueBrain> why would I want to do that? JGR does awesome work .. I dont want to point at him :(
22:57:30 <TrueBrain> okay ... all dependencies are failing horrible ...
22:57:43 <TrueBrain> what am I doing wrong here ..
22:58:11 <TrueBrain> ah, not in PowerShell .. that might be the trick
22:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> almost certainly something trivial that takes you 2 days to find because nobody bothered to document it detailed enough
22:59:07 <TrueBrain> hmm .... it "used to work"
23:01:00 <TrueBrain> it claims it linked vcpkg into msbuild, but .. it lies :D
23:02:17 <TrueBrain> All MSBuild C++ projects can now #include any installed libraries.
23:08:18 <TrueBrain> ah .. wrong triplet selected
23:08:26 <TrueBrain> seems my patch for that no longer works correctly :D
23:09:21 <TrueBrain> at least it compiles now :D
23:09:33 <TrueBrain> and pretty quick, surprisingly
23:09:37 <TrueBrain> okay, linking still fails
23:09:40 <frosch123> "at least"? that sounds like done :o
23:09:52 <TrueBrain> no no, after compiling comes the horrible linker :D
23:10:54 <TrueBrain> hmm .. weird that the linker cannot find the libs ..
23:11:42 <TrueBrain> libpath is correct .. hmm
23:15:27 <TrueBrain> hmm .. /p;Platform=x64 ... and I see that it says: /MACHINE:X86
23:16:30 <TrueBrain> ah ... lol .. I failed :D
23:17:41 <TrueBrain> seems I made the docker for 32bit :D
23:18:30 <TrueBrain> in my defense, x64 and x86 look a lot alike :D
23:18:49 <TrueBrain> ah, yes, here is where I stranded ...... dmusici.h missing!
23:19:14 <TrueBrain> and the way to get that is just shit :P
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23:20:36 <TrueBrain> lol: cmalloc would have returned NULL
23:21:46 <andythenorth> Pikka: if I keep the 91 sprite, do I have to DVT the other end? o_O
23:21:53 <andythenorth> and then push-pull nonsense?
23:22:23 <TrueBrain> but it seems I can make OpenTTD for Windows via Docker :D Now I just need to learn Jenkins to understand this :D w00p!
23:23:13 <TrueBrain> another milestone! :D
23:23:20 <Pikka> definitely not, andythenorth. Unless you just want to make it a double-headed "loco".
23:23:31 <TrueBrain> for now, enough rambling, good night :)
23:28:36 <glx> <TrueBrain> ah, yes, here is where I stranded ...... dmusici.h missing! <-- but directmusic is not enabled by default IIRC
23:29:31 <glx> or that depends on platform, I need to chek
23:30:17 * glx needs 5 minutes to launch VS ;)
23:32:21 <glx> ok it's enabled for win32, disabled for x64
23:33:47 <supermop_work> andythenorth: 225 sets with 2x 91s
23:34:41 <LordAro> isn't direct music the one that was removed from the SDK a decade ago?
23:35:08 <andythenorth> supermop_work: 'overkill' :P
23:35:18 <andythenorth> also there are high speed trains
23:35:35 <glx> exactly LordAro, we need a very old SDK :)
23:38:36 <LordAro> sounds to me like someone should write another music backend :p
23:39:49 <supermop_work> andythenorth: 225 sets with three 91s
23:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: you mean like one, where the volume slider actually does something?
23:45:40 <LordAro> woah, let's not get too fanciful
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