IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-02-18
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10:05:51 <Alberth> it's a pity the commuter airport is not available longer, would be nice to make a aircraft network to connect the remote towns with each other for BB
10:09:16 <andythenorth> I use OGFX+ Airports
10:09:25 <andythenorth> which fixes quite a lot of airport problems
10:09:40 <andythenorth> dates, costs, noise restrictions
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10:44:11 <Alberth> production in firs increases linearly on arriving cargo, isn't it?
10:44:46 <Alberth> would it be nice if it increases slightly less than linear? it would mean it's better to distribute cargo delivery
10:45:01 <Alberth> although is a style of playing I guess
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10:50:02 <andythenorth> for secondary production?
10:50:14 <andythenorth> it's just linear ratio in->out
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12:01:49 <Samu> Wolf01: d you wanna test my Company Value GS?
12:03:56 <andythenorth> Wolf01: so NRT all bugs fixed? o_O
12:04:16 <Wolf01> No, there is a bad bug I don't know how to solve
12:04:30 <Wolf01> Introduced with long-branch-name merge
12:05:15 <Wolf01> Grf says I have ELRL available, game says not, no tram available...
12:05:42 <Wolf01> But if you load unspooled all works fine
12:06:26 <Wolf01> frosch123: could you help me a bit on that?
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12:27:29 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I can't repro that with Hog
12:27:42 <Wolf01> Did you load only Hog?
12:28:33 <andythenorth> no other NRT grfs
12:29:26 <Wolf01> But Hog is crafted for NRT, generic trams is generic
12:35:18 <andythenorth> Wolf01: so the issue is with grfs that pre-date NRT?
12:41:58 <andythenorth> I'll try and repro
12:42:55 <andythenorth> Wolf01: yeah I can repro that with egrvts
12:43:45 <andythenorth> is there already an implemented solution, and it has bugs? Or does it need a proposal?
12:44:46 <frosch123> old grds used to default to ROAD and ELRL
12:44:57 <Wolf01> I implemented a fix for that with long-branch-name, but it doesn't seem to fix that
12:48:01 <Wolf01> Or at least, I never tried without unspooled
12:48:23 <frosch123> i think i tested it back then
12:49:22 <Wolf01> Yes, it loads fine etc, but the function I introduced to only show available roadtypes now disables the dropdown
12:50:01 <Wolf01> It finds vehicles for ELRL
12:50:15 <Wolf01> But no ELRL is available to build
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13:11:28 <Samu> this is on ratt, the today's version
13:26:18 <Samu> hmm those unspool, roadhog, dock and stuff are not available on toyland, is that intended?
13:26:59 <Samu> wait, i'm not doing the right thing
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14:01:35 <Samu> uhm... ratt isn't 100% based on r27968, or is it?
14:04:11 <Samu> i'm getting different start dates for ai companies
14:13:01 <Samu> how random is random functions for start dates? :(
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15:17:35 <Samu> there's something about random that isn't deterministic
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15:32:16 <Samu> different manager faces :(
15:40:21 <LordAro> Samu: is that the same game?
15:40:39 <LordAro> afaik random is only supposed to be deterministic per game (seed)
15:43:09 <Samu> 3 different openttd builds, 2 of each
15:48:55 <Samu> hmm... in multiplayer, everyone is in sync
15:49:23 <Samu> but in separate singleplayer, something goes out of sync
15:50:15 <Samu> i'm trying to test in exactly equal single player conditions
15:56:27 <Samu> on new year... something else goes even more out of sync
15:57:43 <Samu> one of the builds got 15 companies, all other builds don't
15:58:49 <Samu> and now everyone is on their different path
15:59:19 <Samu> something is affecting company start date
16:18:51 <Samu> oh well... it's not really important, it would just be nice if it could replicate
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16:41:37 <Samu> uhm... i suspect there is another AI issue with ratt
16:43:08 <Samu> hard to properly identify it, but something is different
16:44:15 <Samu> 1.7.2 + r27968 differ from ratt
16:44:59 <Samu> but... I could be wrong, after all ratt isn't exactly based on 27968
16:45:30 <Samu> and random isn't 100% deterministic
16:46:19 <Wolf01> So what do you want me to fix? The random?
16:47:03 <Samu> no, i'm only wondering what exactly happened, will be hard
16:47:23 <Samu> wondering if it's a real ratt problem or not
16:48:54 <Samu> nonocab decided to skip road construction, that is odd
16:50:06 <Samu> it's an AI that evaluates costs, pre-determines profits, etc... so, maybe it's getting wrong values for his predictions?
16:51:43 <Samu> so, uh... hard to get Wormnest involved in this
16:53:37 <Samu> i'm testing nonocab on RATT, which is a openttd being done by Wolf01 that makes an overhaul of roads and trams
16:54:10 <Samu> the AIs should behave the same as in trunk
16:54:33 <Samu> i notice nonocab making different decisions in ratt though
16:55:28 <Wormnest> Did you turn on debug messages for nonocab
16:56:23 <Wormnest> Yes you get a lot more info, be aware adding debug messages also changes what it does
16:57:38 <Samu> in trunk and 1.7.2 he made the same stuff, as well as all other ais, but in ratt, they seem to have their own way... the issue is determining if it was some road function that the ais use getting different results in ratt than in 1.7.2/trunk
17:06:09 <Samu> hole crap, it's printing the entire estimations, woah, pretty
17:10:14 <Wolf01> Fuck I found the bug... it's called "TODO"
17:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> those are the worst
17:10:59 <Wolf01> this->SetWidgetDisabledState(WID_TN_TRAMS, !CanBuildRoadTypeInfrastructure(RoadTypeIdentifier(ROADTYPE_TRAM, ROADSUBTYPE_NORMAL), _local_company)); //TODO: should loop through all tramtypes
17:11:25 <Wolf01> It checked only normal RAIL, but only ELRL was available
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17:17:54 <andythenorth> I have many bugs like that in newgrf
17:28:33 <Wolf01> this->SetWidgetDisabledState(WID_TN_TRAMS, GetCompanyRoadtypes(_local_company, ROADTYPE_TRAM) == ROADSUBTYPES_NONE);
17:41:20 <Alberth> better and simpler at the same time :)
17:46:28 <Wolf01> It was the same thing done inside CanBuildRoadTypeInfrastructure, where it was checking the available subtypes against the RoadTypeIdentifier passed to the function... which is good for the dropdown items and other single stuff, but not for a generic check to disable everything
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18:27:18 <Samu> when can i test generic tram set?
19:00:53 * andythenorth refactoring Unsinkable Sam
19:04:09 <Samu> i'm dumping nonocab log when playing 1.7.2 vs ratt vs r27968, for 100 years, if possible, in fast forward then will do a diff on the log, hopefully it can manage megabyte files
19:13:36 <Samu> the ultimate test for RATT, muahaha
19:14:21 <Samu> it's been 20 years, still outputing the same logs
19:15:28 <Samu> i think i managed how to make openttd replicate the exact same stuff in multiplayer
19:15:39 <Samu> ops, i mean single player
19:16:26 <Samu> requires some .scr file configuration, some command lines for openttd
19:17:32 <Samu> openttd.exe -d script=9 -g -G 0 >> D:\OpenTTD\openttd-ratt-g50f76d75-road-and-tram-types-windows-win64\openttd-ratt-g50f76d75-road-and-tram-types-windows-win64-log.txt 2>&1
19:18:28 <Samu> and inside scripts\game_start.scr
19:19:00 <Samu> the openttd.cfg file is shared by the 3 builds
19:20:48 <Samu> it's not a dedicated server, it's singleplayer, so i can fast forward the game for 100 years
19:21:50 <ST2> Samu: have you tried to speak it with a football game narrator voice? xD
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19:26:32 <Samu> fastforwarding speed 1.7.2 > r27968 > ratt
19:26:47 <Samu> ratt is the slowest fast forwarder
20:04:17 <Samu> uh oh, some divergences occured
20:04:31 <Samu> gonna wait till 2051 for a full log...
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20:14:27 <Wolf01> Samu, it's sufficient to check where the first divergence happen, you don't need 100 years of gameplay
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20:40:31 <Samu> diffing between two 50 MB files
20:41:23 <Samu> comon tortoisemerge, u can do it
20:44:17 <Samu> openttd-trunk-r27968-windows-win64-log and openttd-1.7.2-windows-win64-log have the exact same log size, I assume there's no differences
20:44:37 <Samu> openttd-ratt-g50f76d75-road-and-tram-types-windows-win64-log is bigger
20:45:00 <Samu> tortoise is still working ... zzz
20:47:38 <Samu> hmm the first difference is
20:47:40 <Samu> dbg: [script] [1] [I] DEBUG: Report for From: Partston Plastic Fountains to Garnway Toy Factory carrying: PLST using engine Powernaught Plastic Truck
20:47:49 <Samu> dbg: [script] [1] [I] DEBUG: Report for From: Findwood Plastic Fountains to Garnway Toy Factory carrying: PLST using engine Powernaught Plastic Truck
20:49:12 <Samu> how are these reports gathered, by which order, do u know wormnest?
20:50:18 <Wormnest> It just takes a city and then tries to find the best industry connections near them I think
20:52:00 <Samu> first difference happening on line 316k
20:52:05 <Samu> that's past half the log
20:52:22 <Samu> ~50 years in most likely
20:53:12 <Wormnest> Either it dismissed an industry or it added one to use that in the stable version was not
20:53:55 <Wormnest> Need to check what´s different near those 2 industries when nonocab is checking them
20:54:20 <Samu> 'Partston Plastic Fountains' is not found in 1.7.2 and r27968, only on ratt
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20:55:22 <Samu> from here on, almost everything is different
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21:17:43 <Samu> according to the logs, the world state appears to be different from that point on...
21:18:08 <Samu> even on some connections, the estimated number of vehicles differ
21:18:15 <Samu> some of the same connections
21:18:29 <Samu> seems that in one world the production of that industry is higher than on the other
21:19:26 <Samu> sorry wolf, this is gonna be harder to identify than i expected
21:21:45 <Samu> no differences detected between 1.7.2 and r27968 with tortoisemerge diff
21:22:17 <Samu> looks very suspicious, but can't prove anything yet
21:26:20 <Rubidium> you're doing something not quite right
21:26:39 <Rubidium> as there are definitely differences between 1.7.2 and r27968 (of trunk)
21:27:57 <Rubidium> there are no differences between 1.7.2 and r27968 of 1.7.2, but for any other branch there are differences
21:29:16 <Samu> ratt is based on which ?
21:30:00 <Rubidium> how am I supposed to know?
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21:33:06 <Samu> how is ratt gonna reach trunk status?
21:34:02 <Samu> i don't know the right questino
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21:35:24 <andythenorth> NRT -> trunk merge relies on (a) some testing (b) someone who agrees to merge it
21:35:52 <lighta> hi guys. I wanted to ask where could we do suggestion for the game ?
21:38:17 <lighta> ty andythenorth just found it
21:40:10 <Samu> andythenorth: is ratt patched upon latest r27968? has it been updaded as such?
21:41:24 <andythenorth> the last merge from openttd trunk is svn r27968
21:42:10 <Samu> hmm i see, so it's fair to compare ratt with r27968 and hope for the same result
21:42:45 <andythenorth> depends what you're comparing
21:43:08 <Samu> comparing AI on the same replica of the world on both builds
21:45:49 <Samu> i heard there was a way to look for desyncs
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22:01:14 <Samu> As desyncs are hard to make reproducible OpenTTD has the ability to log all actions done by clients so we can replay the whole game in an effort to make desyncs better reproducible.
22:01:20 <Samu> is there a guide for this?
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22:55:17 <Wolf01> Samu, I'd expect 2 identical games played on RATT will produce the same output, the same as would happen in trunk or 1.7.2, is it pointless to compare AI behaviour or random stuff between different branches as there might be subtle changes which are needed for the NRT implementation
22:55:56 <Wolf01> You already spotted the most problematic ones (miscalculations and unability to build adjacent stations) and I fixed them
22:56:08 <Wolf01> This night trams will be fixed too
22:58:32 <Wolf01> Get the latest sources and compile it yourself
23:00:30 <Samu> seems that there's no more issues with AIs that I'm aware of
23:01:22 <Samu> tomorrow will test trams better
23:06:22 <Samu> these subtle random changes that happen unexpectedly
23:06:42 <Samu> pff, oh well, at least I tried
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23:32:11 <Samu> Wolf01: What is the NML fork?
23:33:50 <Wolf01> It's the nml fork to build grfs for NRT
23:34:09 <Samu> ahhhh, so it's nothing i should care about
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23:34:17 <Samu> trying to get the source :(
23:41:28 <Samu> nice job, i can build trams
23:42:58 <Samu> are you supposed to fix these too?
23:45:06 <Samu> maintenance costs match, construction costs are doubled
23:51:59 <Wolf01> Samu, no, I won't fix those, RAIL costs are the same as ROAD, ELRL costs are the same as ELRD, which are double
23:53:31 <Samu> it's called tramway construction in trunk, but electrified tramway construction in ratt
23:54:54 <Wolf01> You could make a petition in the forum if you want :)
23:56:27 <Samu> i don't remember which ais build trams... must see if they're properly building
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