IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-07-16
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00:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> if it were transitive, it would be fine, because C compatible with A and A compatible with B means C compatible with B
00:02:56 <andythenorth> how can B be compatible with A but not C?
00:03:17 <andythenorth> that makes no sense
00:03:37 <andythenorth> [as a design choice]
00:03:55 <Wolf01> You are thinking about A->B->C, but think it as normal->catenary->3rd rail
00:05:12 <Wolf01> (it makes no sense to "upgrade" catenary to 3rd rail, but one train that can run with catenary might not run on 3rd rail)
00:06:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe C is like "high speed rail without freight trains"
00:07:37 <Eddi|zuHause> or B is "oversized train that cannot run under catenary"
00:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> or all sorts of weird combinations
00:07:56 <andythenorth> ok, but all the cases presented are rational
00:08:04 <andythenorth> and the player has made a dumb choice
00:08:20 <andythenorth> player chooses to break their route, that’s up to them
00:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not the problem
00:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is that the algorithm cannot determine the case reliably
00:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so the game behaves inconsitent/wrong from the view of the player
00:09:11 <Wolf01> The problem is that he didn't know it until tried to convert track under a train
00:09:51 * andythenorth didn’t realise there were upgrading algorithms
00:10:01 <andythenorth> I thought it just built what I wanted?
00:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: build a rail in X direction, build an electrified rail in Y direction. watch the magic happen
00:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then build electrified rail first, and normal rail second
00:10:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is a difference between the convert tool and adding trackbits
00:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and then the problems begin when you have complicated railtypes with weight, different AC/DC catenary, 3rd rail, ...
00:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there might be a "universal" railtype, but the game cannot possibly find that automatically
00:12:35 <andythenorth> why should it? o_O
00:12:46 * andythenorth is confused as to the problem being solved there
00:12:52 <andythenorth> magic rarely works
00:12:56 <andythenorth> don’t try, mostly
00:12:57 <Eddi|zuHause> there are algorithms for finding that, but they require the graph to be transitive
00:13:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and the graph is not transitive (in general)
00:13:49 <andythenorth> don’t attempt magic
00:14:04 <andythenorth> sometimes magic is necessary :(
00:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but the current overbuilding algorithm is clearly better than requiring the player to switch railtypes when connecting electric and non-electric rails
00:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> which makes junction building really annoying in mixed networks
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00:30:16 <Wolf01> I want to drive a EMD DDA40X :|
00:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> DD as in axle scheme?
00:31:20 <Wolf01> Let me check trainz simulator
00:32:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, axle scheme Do'-Do'
00:34:41 <Wolf01> If I have it I must use it on freeplay, and that isn't interesting :(
00:42:05 <Wolf01> How do I drive a diesel locomotive? I'm too used with coal ones :P
00:48:38 <Wolf01> Ok, ok, I was in easy mode :(
00:48:59 <Wolf01> That's just a cog to rotate
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09:36:25 <Alberth> all these long evening discussions :)
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10:41:05 <Wolf01> I concluded that I like OTTD as is, and we just need to find a solution for the double catenary.
10:43:43 <Wolf01> If I want something different there are cities skylines and transport fever :P
10:51:07 <andythenorth> gauntlet track :)
10:54:03 * andythenorth thinks that frosch route is worth exploring
10:55:17 <andythenorth> there are a few problems though
10:55:22 <Wolf01> "how to tell if exist both catenary for trolley bus and tram on a tile for transport tycoon" isn't so helpful.. only frosch and unspooled pictures come up
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11:01:19 <Wolf01> [10:54:01] * andythenorth thinks that frosch route is worth exploring <- you mean ground types?
11:01:46 <andythenorth> I think it’s potentially a confusing, clunky UI
11:02:06 <andythenorth> and I can’t understand how overbuilding would work when you just want to add tram to road or vice versa
11:02:29 <andythenorth> but I think otherwise it has some interesting advantages
11:03:41 <Wolf01> Based on what I understood, it's just another way to call the "powered *types" algorythm
11:04:03 <andythenorth> yes, it’s a rearranging
11:04:34 <andythenorth> instead of having e.g. dedicated cobble road, compatible with ROAD
11:04:54 <andythenorth> you have all the ROAD compatible types in a menu, and choose to build one based on appearance
11:05:23 <Wolf01> So, grfs need to provide all the possible combinations and the game just prompts what it found and let you do it or not
11:05:26 <andythenorth> I’ve always found compatibility a fucked up concept
11:05:36 <andythenorth> because….HTH is the player supposed to know what’s compatible?
11:06:05 <andythenorth> it’s a spec designed for authors :P
11:06:33 <andythenorth> it’s quite onanistic
11:08:50 <andythenorth> I’d have to play with the railtypes wiki pages open
11:08:58 <andythenorth> and I don’t even know what label a vehicle uses :P
11:09:34 <Wolf01> Yes, it's a bit confusing, too much reality crammed in
11:31:34 <Wolf01> I was thinking about *types as basesets, you can select only one
11:31:47 <Wolf01> The problem is that they need to be complete
11:32:24 <Wolf01> You can't have one for roads and one for tramways, but you need to have something like unspooled
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11:56:13 <adf88> we have MAX_BUILDING_PIXELS which is a pixel limit for "buildings"
11:57:12 <__ln__> wandering is also nice
11:57:14 <adf88> if other similar limits could be defined for different tile types
11:57:53 <adf88> e.g. a bridge sprite is assumed to be max 200px high
11:58:12 <adf88> maybe this limit could be smaller
11:58:53 <adf88> this whole limits are used when painting tiles - to detect if they are visible
11:59:03 <adf88> and whether they need to be painted
12:00:10 <FLHerne> Is that 200px above deck height, or the ground?
12:00:33 <FLHerne> Second one can be reached fairly easily with tall bridges
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12:00:42 <adf88> above norther corner of tile ground (foundations included)
12:01:13 <adf88> it's limit above the deck
12:04:00 <frosch123> adf88: for performance reason?
12:04:41 <adf88> i'm trying to tweak ViewportAddLandscape
12:04:46 <frosch123> i guess make a quick hack for clear land and trees, and profile whether it makes a difference at all :)
12:04:59 <adf88> there is exclusive limit for bridges
12:05:11 <adf88> so I;m wondering, maybe just lower it
12:05:59 <FLHerne> (not actually an in-game screenshot, aaui)
12:12:33 <FLHerne> Mm, so it's a good yardstick for how ridiculously huge a 200px bridge would be
12:12:56 <FLHerne> Lower limit might be sane ;p
12:25:45 <andythenorth> ach, 1 more FIRS thing done for v3
12:27:53 <adf88> are you familiar with the glitch in zBase on tile grid lines?
12:27:53 <adf88> ground sprites are anti-aliased thus blurred and oversized at edges
12:27:53 <adf88> does the sprite sorter assume no overlapping, thus glitches?
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12:34:43 <frosch123> ottd does not clear the previous screen contents before drawing
12:35:09 <frosch123> is the groundtiles are not opaque, you will see whatever dirt there was before
12:35:20 <frosch123> groundtiles are drawn top to bottom, unless there are foundations
12:36:02 <adf88> so the sprites are undersized?
12:36:44 <adf88> because it would mean that to less is being drawn right?
12:38:13 <frosch123> you could add a GfxFillRect at the beginning of ViewportDoDraw to clear the background
12:38:28 <frosch123> grey if you want to hide it, pink if you want to make it obvious :)
12:42:13 <frosch123> though not sure whether grey works with the outside-map area
12:48:52 <adf88> nah, zBase should fix their sprites :p
12:52:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: with ground types, how does overbuilding work? o_O
12:52:53 <andythenorth> say I want to add tram to the current tile?
12:53:45 <frosch123> the groundtype is asked whether it is possible. if it says no, you have two options: do not allow building tram, or revert ground to some default ground which allows everything
12:54:13 <andythenorth> if I want to keep road on the tile, do I have to find the current roadtype in the UI?
12:54:24 <frosch123> likely the former, since "default ground" may be weird
12:55:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: you mean some query tool? set filter according to existing tile?
13:01:22 <andythenorth> seems I have to know the current roadtype (or tramtype) before I can overbuild to add tram (or road)
13:02:02 <frosch123> yes, if you have road and haul next to each other
13:02:26 <frosch123> but other than that i would think incompatibiltiy is a rare case
13:03:11 <andythenorth> something I can’t articulate there
13:03:32 <andythenorth> hmm, maybe it’s a non issue
13:42:14 <andythenorth> anyone fancy testing FIRS Basic economies, now that MNSP is removed?
13:49:21 <adf88> another thing hard to revert
13:49:28 <adf88> why there are two bits used to store "is bridge above" state in Tile::type?
13:55:23 <LordAro> adf88: oh, i did make my own FALLTHROUGH patch, looked very similar to yours :)
13:55:44 <LordAro> naturally i'm currently away from the computer with it on
13:56:23 <adf88> i just did basic grep/sed and fix warnings that's all
13:56:52 <adf88> the patch needs tweak for different compilers tho
13:57:23 <LordAro> i think i had gotten that far
13:57:30 <LordAro> wanted to test with clang as well, iirc
14:10:03 <FLHerne> adf88: Not for different bridge axes?
14:10:29 <adf88> if only bridges could cross each other...
14:11:02 <FLHerne> If there's a bridge above and that matters, you have to search for a bridgehead to actually get any info on the bridge
14:11:44 <FLHerne> Separate flags for each axis would reduce the number of wasted tiles to search
14:13:30 <FLHerne> But then, it's rare to build very many bridges in parallel, so it might not help very much
14:15:06 <frosch123> you only need to change a few lines to allow crossing bridges :)
14:15:12 <frosch123> it will look bad, but it likely works
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14:21:12 <andythenorth> is 15 years of play enough to test an economy? o_O
14:22:27 <frosch123> to mass produce some medicine i think you need to test it with 20 people
14:32:06 <andythenorth> is FIRS a controlled substance?
14:43:55 <Wolf01> I almost emptied my netflix watchlist, there are all the star trek series now
14:44:36 <Flygon> I really gotta watch through TOS and Enterprise before hitting Discovery when it comes.
14:45:34 <Wolf01> To go, I've seen a lot of anime series I missed before
14:49:01 <Flygon> Yeah, that'll keep you busy for at least 3 months.
14:49:10 <Flygon> ...add a week if you're gonna do the films.
14:49:22 <Flygon> Add Heavy Metal, if you haven't seen it.
14:49:46 <Flygon> Possibly the greatest Canadian film of all time.
14:50:23 <Wolf01> Eh... not available in my country
14:50:26 <Flygon> I thought this was a different IRC network and channel.
14:50:36 <Flygon> Yeah, I thought this was an... er, AU-related channel.
14:50:52 <Flygon> Yeah, it's on AU Netflix.
14:57:02 <Flygon> Then you probably know why I'm so embaressed espousing it in #openttd hahaha.
14:57:21 <Flygon> I saw your name and my brain went "Oh, yep. Definitely this channel that casually discusses R-rated films".
14:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> why shouldn't that be a thing that we discuss?
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15:00:23 <Flygon> Not really something I ever saw discussed here. :V
15:04:13 <Wolf01> I think we are almost all of the right age here :P
15:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, if you straight out linked porn here, i could see people going "don't do that"... but casually suggesting a movie?
15:19:49 <Wolf01> Me too, but not on internet, on internet I'm a werehuman (a wolf which transforms to human)
15:22:04 <Flygon> You are possibly the single greatest enemy to the furry fandom. :P
15:22:45 <Wolf01> Also not brony and other stuff like that
15:30:26 <Flygon> I'm beginning to regret colourizing and inbetweening this animation in pixel art.
15:30:35 <Flygon> Onion skinning works poorly at low res.
16:07:19 <frosch123> i know it, but i cannot name it
16:07:35 <frosch123> it's likely vangelis, but which movie?
16:08:08 <frosch123> oi, i was thinking along dark star or something :p
16:10:21 <Wolf01> Also I don't know if I would like to start watching the new season this night or wait until the end and watch it all
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16:41:40 <supermop_> andythenorth I rarely play more than 15 years
16:42:23 <supermop_> any seriously built out passenger network can't really be readily overhauled past that point so I lose interest
16:45:52 <supermop_> Wolf01what is the lego version of furry? stubby?
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17:07:57 <Fabinis> good day, what port should i open to host openttd server? TCP 3979 ?
17:12:09 <DorpsGek> Wolf01: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
17:16:28 <Wolf01> Maybe soon or later it learns to combine FIRS automagically
17:16:55 <Wolf01> <supermop_> Wolf01what is the lego version of furry? stubby? <- wtf XD
17:25:55 <Alberth> the problem with those books is that you also have to read them :p
17:29:14 <Alberth> aka a very short summary :)
17:34:13 <Wolf01> Also I'm a hoarder, something might always be useful :P
17:35:23 <andythenorth> eh Temperate Basic FIRS is good
17:35:29 * andythenorth had better test the next one
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18:58:21 <andythenorth> frosch123 …you thought there was a way to shuffle the FIRS economy order in action 14, without breaking saves? o_O
19:00:23 <Exec> Hey. https://i.imgur.com/EGI6O3h.png I have this mess of lines/junctions. Any ideas to make it better? :D I can't destroy buildings, not in the current state with those cities. Money is not much of an issue (although I wouldn't use the bribe option)
19:00:58 <andythenorth> more bridges? o_O
19:02:21 <frosch123> more bridges, more tunnels, less sharp curves
19:03:07 <__ln__> do you mean curves that are less sharp, or fewer sharp curves
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19:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say the former is a better goal, because it's the sharpness of the curves that is the bigger problem, not the amount of curves
19:09:08 <frosch123> wow, there are areas in the world where felix is spelled feliks
19:09:51 <andythenorth> PIPE needs some dedicated station and depot sprites
19:23:15 <frosch123> hmm, meh, reordering economies does not work :/
19:23:34 <frosch123> the numeric values of the combobox items must be consecutive
19:24:13 <andythenorth> that’s what I found :)
19:24:23 <andythenorth> glad it’s not just me :P
19:24:45 <andythenorth> there is a mechanism to abstract the position from the numeric_id
19:24:58 <andythenorth> but not in a way that will preserve savegames
19:25:12 <andythenorth> and I’m not sure it actually works :P
19:37:46 <Wolf01> Preserving savegames is easy, breaking change -> new major version
19:38:07 <andythenorth> I might just break savegame :P
19:38:10 <andythenorth> including my own
19:39:23 <Wolf01> As if it never happened before
19:41:37 <frosch123> removing MNSP should already break everything
19:45:51 <andythenorth> FIRS 2 savegames were long ago broken :O
19:58:24 <andythenorth> Tropic Basic is probably ok
19:58:33 <andythenorth> 3 years in, I don’t miss MNSP :P
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20:19:55 * andythenorth uses the ‘jet planes won’t crash (much)’ cheat
20:19:58 <andythenorth> bad andythenorth
20:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> how dare you! you must only play the pure base game. (no newgrf, all default settings)
20:29:41 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, not even default settings, but the default settings of 10 years ago
20:29:43 <andythenorth> I just can’t be building big airports for delivering supplies to oil wells :P
20:30:12 <andythenorth> too slow for the distance
20:30:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i once used zeppelins
20:30:48 <andythenorth> zellepins are great for that
20:30:53 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 15 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 11 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <Pikka> not really sure yet
20:33:54 <andythenorth> so should we have a NewNotRoadTypes spec?
20:34:05 <andythenorth> it’s 12 months since I wrote the last one :P
20:34:38 <Wolf01> Add some punctuation and release it as v2
20:35:05 <Wolf01> Shit... already 1 year?
20:35:47 <andythenorth> stuff takes time :)
20:43:20 <frosch123> 10 years ago i wrote grf2html :)
20:51:47 <andythenorth> 9 years of FIRS :P
20:52:48 <andythenorth> ok time to break savegames :P
20:54:12 <andythenorth> 365.25 days, no?
20:54:21 <andythenorth> how long are slug years?
21:01:00 <andythenorth> V453000: have you drawn the FIRS industries I need yet?
21:09:17 <frosch123> maybe you can trick him into thinking slug and slag being the same
21:09:47 <Alberth> I think slag would make great food for slugs
21:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> they used slag around here to pave roads
21:11:12 <Eddi|zuHause> they get incredibly slippery when wet
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21:46:04 <andythenorth> I need a grfid for OpenGFX+ industries
21:46:25 <andythenorth> oh, the patch has it on the issue :)
21:52:48 <Alberth> took only a year to find it :)
22:00:10 * andythenorth closing tickets :)
22:10:28 <andythenorth> I have a local list :P
22:10:57 <andythenorth> but done enough for v3 nearly :D
22:11:13 <andythenorth> not sure how many more economies I’ll add
22:12:39 <Alberth> it ends at 128 industries, I guess
22:13:45 <andythenorth> I want to do a Pacific Northwest economy
22:13:47 <Alberth> but you may run out of different look & feel before
22:13:52 <andythenorth> and rework Extreme
22:14:04 <andythenorth> I had ideas about Japan, and maybe an ‘Urban’ economy
22:14:12 <andythenorth> coffee -> coffee shop
22:14:21 <andythenorth> tablets -> electronics shop :P
22:14:22 <Alberth> yep, extreme needs more indsutries, obviously
22:14:30 <andythenorth> I think urban might suck to play :P
22:14:52 <andythenorth> extreme breaks my head
22:14:53 <Alberth> nice for those mega-cities people
22:15:08 <andythenorth> I think I might allow someone else to invent Urban
22:15:17 <Alberth> relabel to "hysteric accident"
22:15:19 <andythenorth> and Japan, it’s only adding rice that appeals
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22:15:58 <andythenorth> I had an idea about australia and exporting, but it overlaps IAHC
22:16:28 <Alberth> didn't play that since the rename, I think
22:18:19 <Alberth> in india you need wagons with people on top of the roof :p
22:19:08 <Alberth> japan set has no industries?
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22:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you should mark all newgrfs incompatible that you did not write yourself!!
22:23:31 <frosch123> india needs durian farm
22:23:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I wanted to reserve a range of grfids
22:24:04 <andythenorth> where do I apply? :|
22:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> last i heard the CA?? range was up for grabs :p
22:27:11 <andythenorth> I’ll need a warranty
22:29:09 <frosch123> is firs3 incompatible with firs2?
22:30:46 <frosch123> i thought it was obvious to forget that check :)
22:30:51 <andythenorth> I nearly forgot :P
22:30:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that's really a non-issue if you just keep the grfid
22:31:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and just increase the minimum compatible version in the A14
22:31:27 <andythenorth> then I can’t have both versions on Bananaramas
22:31:57 <andythenorth> leaving the old one around appeases those who hate the changes
22:32:01 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should have different GRFIDs for "release" and "development" :p
22:32:06 <andythenorth> also I need a grfid for “Preindustrial era houses”
22:32:18 <andythenorth> and “Oil rig layout"
22:32:21 <andythenorth> whatever they are
22:32:24 <andythenorth> apparently incompatible
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22:41:40 <Wolf01> Mmmh I was training for couple lego speedbuild, but alone is not the same :P
22:42:40 <supermop_> the house one does something with coal
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