IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-06-18
⏴ go to previous day
00:48:00 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
00:53:49 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
01:49:04 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
01:49:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
03:33:15 <supermop_home> Error: (IndexError) "pop from empty list".
03:33:15 <supermop_home> Command: ['nmlc', 'moprv26.nml']
03:33:15 <supermop_home> Location: File "nml\free_number_list.py", line 74, in pop
03:33:27 <supermop_home> weird nmlc error
06:12:09 <supermop_home> only think I can think thay may have caused it is that I've now added ids to every RV
06:12:39 <supermop_home> maybe they are too big or something
06:37:39 <supermop_home> item(FEAT_ROADVEHS, item_f1_mail, 010105) {... maybe 6 digits is too many
06:47:18 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
06:51:50 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
06:51:50 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
08:51:43 *** Progman has joined #openttd
09:03:23 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
09:16:35 <Alberth> critical customers at home eh? :)
09:48:19 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_home: IDs are 16 bit, and you can only use 14 bit if you use the articulated vehicle callback
09:49:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and that error needs a better message
09:51:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so the highest usable number is 16383
09:52:49 <Eddi|zuHause> also, leading 0 probably has special meaning like "octal number"
10:23:22 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
11:15:57 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
11:53:51 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
12:37:47 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
12:44:58 <andythenorth> is it roadtypes?
12:45:39 <Wolf01> Maybe, I still don't know how what to do
14:14:40 <Wolf01> Mmmmh, what is happening with internet? I can watch fullhd videos on youtube but I have 1.5s lag
14:32:42 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
14:32:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
14:52:46 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
14:58:31 <andythenorth> ok so nobody has drawn the new FIRS cargo icons :(
14:58:34 * andythenorth will have to do it eh?
14:59:09 <andythenorth> or fix the makefile
14:59:30 <andythenorth> makefile blocks releases currently
15:05:19 <andythenorth> Alberth: is now any good to help fix FIRS makefile? o_O
15:15:34 <Alberth> someone added 50 commits :p
15:16:21 <supermop_home> hmm how am I going to automatically change formatting of 300 numbers
15:19:38 <andythenorth> Alberth: afaict, Bananas requires readme.txt, license.txt and changelog.txt in the root of the tar
15:19:44 <andythenorth> and won’t allow any other files except the grf
15:20:02 <andythenorth> but the FIRS compile nests those things inside docs/
15:20:16 <andythenorth> they need picked out, or FIRS needs to change assumptions (either is fine)
15:22:35 <Alberth> argh, why is it named "firs.tar"
15:22:51 <Alberth> ever tried having 2 firs-es in one directory?
15:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_home: with a code generator
15:28:07 <supermop_home> Alberth 6 digit numbers to 5 digit
15:29:55 <andythenorth> Alberth: I wondered why it doesn’t use the version number
15:30:46 <Alberth> so global substitution of \b\d(\d\d\d\d\d)\b to \1 ? ( "\b" is begin or end, "\d" is a digit, stuff between "(".. ")" is collected and copied with \1 )
15:31:46 <Alberth> maybe you don't want to discard any 6th digit?, but \b0(\d\d\d\d\d)\b instead (most significant digit must be 0 )
15:32:19 <Alberth> a bit more simple minded, search/replace " 0" to " " ?
15:33:02 <supermop_home> actually change all leading 010 to 2, 020 to 3, 030 to 4 will probably work
15:33:08 <Alberth> andy, I am pretty sure my Makefile did have a version number :)
15:34:13 <Alberth> regular expression search/replace
15:34:20 <supermop_home> number is [waytype][power source][type, 2 digits][length][generation]
15:35:13 <Alberth> why don't you use letters?
15:35:19 <Alberth> would seem more readable?
15:35:27 <supermop_home> don't know if i can in the numerical id
15:35:50 <supermop_home> eddi says 16000 ish is biggest can be
15:35:58 <supermop_home> so assuming that is base 10
15:36:39 <andythenorth> oh you hit the articulated RV ID limit? o_O
15:37:28 <supermop_home> but can combine way and power, eg 123 for diesel, electric, bimode RVS, 456 for trams
15:37:42 <Alberth> you can store the info in bits, which has a higher information density, but that's not quite readable unless you use hexadecimal notation
15:38:20 <Alberth> and have some experience reading bits from such numbers :)
15:38:33 <supermop_home> making type 1 digit is possible but means i cant add anymore types in future like for hot metal or containers
15:39:47 <andythenorth> supermop: are you assigning meaning to the numeric IDs? o_O
15:43:52 <supermop_home> andythenorth yes
15:44:00 <supermop_home> I feel compelled to
15:44:14 <andythenorth> I had to manually fix that in my sets too many times
15:44:20 <andythenorth> start at 1 and work up
15:44:24 <supermop_home> though I may just omit all of them
15:46:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i did advise against it...
15:46:54 <supermop_home> currently they are only used to order vehicles by some artificial sense of similarness
15:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> really, there is neither need nor use for that
15:48:08 <andythenorth> definitely, just count up from 1, in blocks of 10
15:48:20 <Alberth> andythenorth: what should stay in docs? just "html" and "index.html" ?
15:48:30 <andythenorth> Alberth: unsure :)
15:48:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and unless you're worried about loading different versions of the grf, then the IDs are mostly irrelevant
15:48:52 * andythenorth wonders if there should be a single ‘compiled’ dir for all the output
15:49:22 <andythenorth> spamming the root dir with misc files and dirs seems untidy
15:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that's usually called "build"
15:49:54 <andythenorth> I’m also not sure if the .dotall file is final output, or intermediate
15:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "bin" might be inappropriate
15:50:24 * andythenorth wasn’t 100% responsible for the docs, there is a lot of historical facts here
15:50:26 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: we're discussing grf tar content :)
15:50:33 <supermop_home> I guess I can use regular expression replace to replace all ", ......)" to ")"
15:51:03 <Alberth> you may want to limit content of the "....."
15:51:22 <Alberth> in particular not allow that to be "," :p
15:51:56 <andythenorth> is this the issue here? The format for distribution isn’t the format we can distribute on bananas
15:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> make bundle_bananas?
15:52:14 <andythenorth> the distribution should contain the docs, including html docs
15:52:22 <andythenorth> but we don’t distribute the distribution
15:52:27 <andythenorth> we distribute something else
15:52:39 <andythenorth> so who needs the distribution at all?
15:53:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably the wrong question
15:53:45 <Alberth> hmm, I have no idea what bananas expects
15:53:59 <andythenorth> it’s quite hard to test :)
15:54:08 <andythenorth> as the only way to find out is to try uploading things
15:54:10 <supermop_home> now it compiles
15:54:14 <andythenorth> which is somewhat committed :P
15:54:33 <andythenorth> seems musa could also exclude files from the bananas upload
15:54:40 <andythenorth> but I didn’t explore that option
15:55:05 <Alberth> I have several grfs that only have a directory in the root
15:55:20 <andythenorth> all of our technological future will be trying to reverse engineer legacy systems that are live in production :P
15:55:26 <andythenorth> via their web interface
15:55:49 <Alberth> people have to learn to just ditch old crap :p
15:56:01 <andythenorth> the bananas rebuild stalled :)
15:56:10 <andythenorth> frosch has a VM for it
15:56:16 <andythenorth> but we never rebuilt it :)
15:58:39 *** Lejving has joined #openttd
15:58:50 <supermop_home> anyone want to test?
15:59:36 <Alberth> only a directory in the root is definitely not problem
16:10:11 <andythenorth> supermop_home: no trucks? o_O
16:10:29 <andythenorth> do I need more roads?
16:13:21 <Alberth> "docs" is created in render_docs magic, it seems
16:14:13 <Alberth> can't you simply generate the .txt files next to firs.grf?
16:14:58 <Alberth> mk-archive script is quite limited in changing directory structure
16:15:22 <andythenorth> I dislike spamming the root folder
16:15:34 <andythenorth> especially because changelog.txt and readme.txt are generated
16:15:41 <Alberth> add a directory level
16:15:44 <andythenorth> it’s very easy to edit the generated files
16:16:10 <andythenorth> not good outcome :)
16:16:44 * andythenorth considers making a ‘dist’ dir then
16:16:51 <andythenorth> and just putting the bananas files in there
16:17:09 <Alberth> ie make a "target" directory, or whatever its name, and add target/{firs.grf,license.txt,changelog.txt} and target/docs
16:17:10 <supermop_home> andy, parameter?
16:17:10 <andythenorth> and duplicate some of the files into docs
16:17:52 <Alberth> mk-archive needs the same hierarchy, but from any directory
16:18:12 <andythenorth> the tar doesn’t need the html docs in it, that’s a luxury
16:18:20 <andythenorth> I will try and achieve this now :)
16:18:36 <andythenorth> supermop_home: I must be doing something wrong, but can’t figure out what
16:18:41 <andythenorth> I have some buses though
16:19:00 <supermop_home> andythenorth it should work with regular nrt roads
16:19:10 <andythenorth> what is in a ‘bundle’ dir by convention?
16:19:21 * andythenorth has naming anxiety
16:19:47 <supermop_home> at least it does for me
16:19:56 <supermop_home> what year are you in?
16:20:08 <supermop_home> first truck is 1910
16:20:24 <supermop_home> bus not until 1930 so far
16:20:42 <supermop_home> are you filtering by passengers?
16:20:49 <andythenorth> I probably have the wrong grf or so
16:22:20 <andythenorth> Dual Mode and Generic RVs 0.2.6?
16:23:06 <Alberth> andythenorth: there is ${PROJECT_VERSIONED_NAME} that you can use as basename for the tar or zip
16:23:43 <Alberth> not tested, but I think it works
16:23:56 <andythenorth> I am going to publish grf + bananas docs into ‘firs-{version}’ dir
16:24:01 <andythenorth> and then tar that
16:24:05 <andythenorth> might be faff, not sure
16:25:41 <andythenorth> supermop_home: it works for you locally I assume? o_O
16:30:19 <Alberth> maybe bananas changes it, but at least it beats "firs.tar" any day.
16:30:39 <Alberth> oh, inside the tar is already done!
16:30:41 <andythenorth> could at least use a ‘for f’ loop or so
16:30:57 <Alberth> ie the "--base" option
16:31:03 <andythenorth> I feel like this might have loose ends currently :)
16:32:40 <supermop_home> andythenorth yes it works as expected for me
16:32:50 <andythenorth> I don’t know whether to keep generating firs.grf into the root also
16:32:59 <Alberth> afaik, mk-archive copies paths from the arguments, and optionally inserts "--base" in front of it
16:34:36 <Alberth> maybe useful for development to have firs.grf at a fixed place
16:39:53 <andythenorth> it’s easier to not have to check for existence of a dir
16:40:16 <andythenorth> but I only use firs.grf manually when checking file timestamp if compile has issues
16:42:36 <andythenorth> ok, well Bananas accepted the tar :)_
16:42:49 <andythenorth> so at least the format is good, even if my code is ugly :)
16:48:28 <Alberth> it's just 3 lines, a for-loop is about equally long
16:48:43 <andythenorth> it’s easy to understand this way I guess
16:52:16 <andythenorth> sorted for now then, thanks
16:52:30 <andythenorth> I am not happy about the amount of stuff generated in root dir
16:52:42 <andythenorth> it’s much less than some python web frameworks :P
16:53:27 <andythenorth> and it’s too hot to rebuild things :)
16:55:09 <Alberth> writing Java code learned me that having lots of directories isn't useful either :p
16:57:18 <andythenorth> I navigate the mac file browser with cursor keys and ‘type first letter of name’
16:57:27 <andythenorth> nesting makes that less pleasant :)
16:57:59 <andythenorth> I think I could maybe eliminate or move custom_tags.txt and custom_tags.template
16:58:55 <Alberth> pick unique first letters :p
16:59:17 <Alberth> at work I tend to type "cd *test"
16:59:36 <Alberth> which suggests the directory name is too long :p
17:01:34 <LordAro> Alberth: i'm not seeing a way to do the pointer -> references changes separately. qsort explicitly takes a comparator function that has 2 pointer args and i'm not seeing how i can sanely convert between them
17:01:44 * andythenorth wonders if custom_tags.txt has to be in root
17:01:49 <andythenorth> can’t see it being passed to nml
17:02:54 <Alberth> it's a pity, but not much you can do about it
17:03:38 <Alberth> the other way around then?
17:04:15 <Alberth> oh, that wont' fly either of course due to std::sort comparator arguments
17:05:26 * andythenorth adds CUSTOM_TAGS var
17:06:36 <andythenorth> apparently worked
17:07:05 <andythenorth> move the grf into /generated?
17:08:09 <Alberth> nmlc --help may have an option
17:08:35 <andythenorth> I think I just give it the path
17:11:08 <andythenorth> ‘makefiles are fun'
17:16:16 <andythenorth> is it weird to delete an intermediate dir after tarring it?
17:16:24 <andythenorth> it’s of no other use than creating the .tar
17:22:33 <Alberth> traditionally, you do that with "make clean"
17:22:46 <Alberth> easier for debugging the makefile if it messes up
17:22:54 <andythenorth> what would you expect to get from just ‘make’, and where?
17:23:22 * andythenorth thinks this is about to all make sense, finally
17:23:37 <Alberth> default target, I'd do the bare minimum, but you may have other ideas about what that means
17:24:15 <supermop_home> still no luck andy?
17:24:22 <andythenorth> supermop_home: sorry, makefile-ing
17:25:02 <andythenorth> so just ‘make’ creates (1) docs (because I want them from make) (2) intermediate files in /generated (3) firs.grf in /generated
17:25:16 <andythenorth> firs.grf is fairly useless on its own
17:25:31 <andythenorth> you either want ‘make install’ to test it in game, or some form of tar or bundle
17:25:37 <Alberth> if you remove things after creating the tar, it should be fine, as it won't remove things if it breaks then
17:28:10 * andythenorth leaves the grf in generated/firs.grf
17:28:15 <andythenorth> and awaits user complaints :P
17:33:34 <supermop_home> is tropic basic changed at all for firs 3?
17:35:29 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:35:32 <andythenorth> supermop_home: not afaik
17:35:49 <supermop_home> oops openttd on this computer too old for firs 3
17:36:01 <supermop_home> time to grab another
17:46:30 <Alberth> new computer with new openttd
17:55:25 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:55:29 * andythenorth needs a new computer
17:55:39 <andythenorth> the FIRS compile is slow on this one :(
17:56:08 <Wolf01> Stop doing that on a Mac
17:56:47 <andythenorth> Mac / any other laptop with a crap CPU
17:57:24 <glx> I think windows has slower file access than mac/other OS
18:02:02 <Wolf01> You could always use linux with an i7 and a ssd
18:03:27 <andythenorth> is linux notably faster than OS X?
18:07:35 <Wolf01> I'm sure it's faster than Windows
18:08:03 <Wolf01> At least for what I tried so far
18:08:15 <andythenorth> who understands behaviour of motors in parallel?
18:11:42 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
18:12:35 <supermop_home> andythenorth they use twice as much current?
18:12:35 <andythenorth> this crap (I think it is anyway) on Eurobricks
18:13:05 <andythenorth> every time someone uses multiple motors in a model, someone pops up and says “but it’s bad for the motors"
18:13:32 <andythenorth> and I can’t remember enough electrical physics to convincingly show them they don’t know their arse from their elbow
18:17:13 <Wolf01> Since you are driving them at 9v while they are made for 15v, I don't think they can be harmed so easily, maybe if you load them too much they could overheat and protection kicks in
18:17:59 <supermop_home> Wolf01 i think it will just drain the battery faster
18:19:34 <supermop_home> I doubt the current will be enough to overheat those lego wires
18:19:47 <supermop_home> that I remember from when I was a kid
18:19:56 <Wolf01> You already can connect 4 motors to a single battery pack, and even more if you want (I used 6), I don't think that battery drain is a problem
18:20:04 <supermop_home> if anything new lego wires are probably heavier gauge
18:23:00 <Wolf01> The problem is pretty mechanical-electric, a stalled motor drains more current, since 2 same lego motors don't exactly match speed you might have the slower one loading the faster one, draining more current, but it's really a little problem
18:51:58 <Alberth> stalled motors are a problem, as movement means induction which means resistance which means reduced current which means less heat
18:52:40 <andythenorth> they have thermal protection :)
18:52:53 <Alberth> you don't want to rely on that :)
18:52:56 <andythenorth> that problem applies to 1 motor or n :)
18:53:20 <Alberth> yes, multiple motors isn't much of a problem in itself
18:54:11 * andythenorth is doing a wavey hands job in that post
18:54:12 <Alberth> you get different voltages likely, so different torque output, ie different efficiency, as motors are designed for some optimal voltage
18:54:53 * andythenorth used a lot of words and half-remembered physics to say “works for me” :P
18:55:15 <Alberth> less efficient is more heat, but nothing really bad, afaik
18:56:02 <Alberth> of course cooling of lego motors isn't very optimal :p
18:56:30 <andythenorth> there’s very little case ventilation, and no built-in fan or so
18:57:49 <Alberth> a motor is basically just a large copper coil, can't go much wrong with it
19:02:05 <andythenorth> that’s my experience :)
19:02:15 * andythenorth has broken enough motors to not be mystified by them
19:12:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you could put a fan on the motor :p
19:23:36 <Alberth> making sure some air can circulate around it would help too :)
19:23:52 <Alberth> ie not build it into a closed box
20:08:20 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:17:43 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:26:49 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:46:59 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:51:54 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
21:33:14 <supermop_home> latest nrt is a week old
21:33:21 <supermop_home> is that intended?
21:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd is dying!
22:11:00 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
22:13:35 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
22:19:55 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
22:22:56 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
22:25:47 <frosch123> no more wifi, for a while :)
22:37:12 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
22:50:52 <frosch123> yay for people blindly adding casts to silence warnings, without understanding them
22:52:11 <glx> nice way to silently break things
22:53:04 <glx> I guess it's a 64bit to 32bit cast
22:54:19 <frosch123> is modifying argv[0] allowed?
22:54:37 <frosch123> we write some \0 into it, to extract the path
22:54:40 <glx> I think argv should be const
22:54:56 <glx> but it's often abused to store stuff :)
23:35:12 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
23:59:52 *** Maarten has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵