IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-05-20
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15:31:26 <supermop_home> steam trams, diesel trucks, or bendy buses?
15:37:43 <supermop_home> andythenorth I am dreading a slippery slope whereby I make an inferior remake of hog or egrvts
15:38:16 <supermop_home> but as is stands I feel trolleybi needs more, bigger vehicles, and conventional ones as well
15:40:03 <supermop_home> ogfx+ is all rigid half tile long vehicles, but I am tempted to add articulated trams and buses, semi-trucks, etc
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15:45:22 <planetmaker> supermop, not sure that OpenGFX+ needs to stay rigidly to half-tile vehicles. The remade default ones should be for compatibility reasons. But newer additions could feature different lengths, I think
15:45:50 <planetmaker> IIRC for the trains there's even one engine which changes length to 7/8 in the OGFX+ train set (turbo train)
15:47:04 <planetmaker> supermop, but consider that the tram and bus stops work "best" (in terms of capacity / through-put) with half-tile vehicles (or full tile).
15:50:13 <supermop_home> planetmaker: yeah, an bunch of 9/8semi trucks could get annoying
15:51:05 <supermop_home> I could make all trams either .5 or 1 tiles depending on if they are bendy,
15:52:38 <planetmaker> probably it's just a balancing issue in that the longer vehicles should carry more. How long exactly they are then doesn't matter and is more a visual choice
15:53:39 <planetmaker> Anyhow, a lot of this is a matter of looks, I think. And a visually 9/8 vehicle could probably still be coded as 8/8 with a slight overlap ;)
15:54:50 <supermop_home> for a semi-truck, can the tractor and trailer overlap at the hitch?
15:57:15 <andythenorth> RH messes with lengths and offsets for semi-trucks
15:57:20 <andythenorth> seems to work fine
16:00:34 <supermop_home> andythenorth so you can draw the hitch extending to rear axle(s) ?
16:08:30 * andythenorth shoudl finish fricking FIRS
16:09:53 <supermop_home> I cant believe I am making a truck set before a train set
16:10:19 <andythenorth> we have enough trains
16:10:30 <andythenorth> also train lengths suck
16:10:38 <andythenorth> so making a set is demoralising
16:11:23 * supermop_home never really like trucks
16:11:32 <supermop_home> always loved trains
16:12:05 <supermop_home> I guess I am doing this out of a desire to force furtherance of nrt
16:13:03 <supermop_home> its illustrative of quirks of ELRD at least
16:13:40 <supermop_home> paradoxically, trolleybuses end up to be the hardest transit to build,
16:13:48 <andythenorth> what’s hard about them?
16:14:01 <supermop_home> have to remove town road
16:14:16 <supermop_home> can't just string up wires over a public street
16:15:12 <supermop_home> so ELRD ends up being most suitable for mining trucks, where the small capacity really shows
16:16:17 <supermop_home> you can 'cheat' by building roadstops on straight road to convert it to ELRD, but corners and intersection require destroying
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16:17:50 <supermop_home> I might add dual mode vehicles to help with running through an ornery town that wont let you rebuild its roads
16:18:11 <andythenorth> can’t overbuild normal road?
16:18:26 <supermop_home> well you can with road stops
16:18:39 <supermop_home> but not with the convert tool
16:19:19 <supermop_home> currently you cannot convert roads owned by others, including towns
16:19:31 <andythenorth> that makes sense somewhat
16:20:05 <supermop_home> otherwise i could convert a towns roads to elrd and not pay upkeep, which is fine,
16:20:28 <supermop_home> but a competitor could come by and downgrade them to dirt or something
16:20:35 <andythenorth> I don’t see any resolution to that
16:20:47 <supermop_home> that kind of griefing is probably livable
16:21:04 <supermop_home> but i think nrt might need support for some kind of hierarchy
16:22:11 <supermop_home> where roads are ranked by their sort order
16:22:19 <frosch123> i think we had a solution
16:22:30 <frosch123> like allow converting town road to anything that is compatible to ROAD
16:23:00 <supermop_home> frosch123that would work
16:23:26 <supermop_home> would be nice if you could enforce that the upgrade must have equal or greater powered ness
16:23:56 <supermop_home> but could live without that
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16:33:23 <supermop_home> or set a property for roads that sets them as town buildable
16:33:43 <supermop_home> and you can upgrade to those?
16:34:24 <andythenorth> time for new FIRS cargo icons :P
16:35:07 <andythenorth> Cement, Coke, Explosives, Fertiliser, Kaolin, Peat, Pig Iron, Pipe, Quicklime, Slag, Soda Ash, Steel, Sulphur, Vehicle Bodies, Zinc
16:35:20 <andythenorth> supermop_home: feel inspired to draw an icon? o_O ^
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16:57:52 <nekomaster> Anyone around that knows how to code railtypes in NML?
16:59:22 <nekomaster> I was wondering how to add Narrow Gauge railtype to my Nars Add-on set
17:02:04 <frosch123> you add a railtypetranslation table to your grf
17:02:10 <frosch123> and then specfiy the railtype for the vehicles
17:02:21 <frosch123> load some other grf which provides narrow gauge and you are done
17:02:27 <nekomaster> I already have Metro support
17:03:03 <nekomaster> I just need the code thingy for it like how theres RAIL, ELRL, MTRO, 3RDR
17:03:50 <planetmaker> what does the newgrf wiki suggest?
17:04:06 <planetmaker> what do other railtype NewGRFs use?
17:04:12 <nekomaster> I can't find anything
17:04:34 <nekomaster> I'm still waking up, so I dont know what to search up
17:16:09 <nekomaster> Thanks for the help guys
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18:57:42 <Alberth> nah, have programmed too much Python already :)
18:58:21 <Alberth> did pickup the robot book yesterday
19:00:39 <frosch123> aren't important books usually named by the color of their cover?
19:02:34 <Alberth> I do own the dragon book though, if that counts
19:03:33 <Alberth> and a few others, but they go by title or authors afaik
19:04:24 <Alberth> and a whole lot non-famous books :p
19:08:18 <quiznilo> krushia: Buy Tucson Steel™
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23:12:38 <supermop_home> I don't see a cb in specs for current rail type
23:13:05 <supermop_home> how do I have a switch to increase power/decrease running cost when on ELRD?
23:17:42 <FLHerne> supermop_home: There's a track_type variable
23:19:15 <supermop_home> current_railtype ?
23:19:27 <supermop_home> can I use current_roadtype?
23:19:58 <frosch123> you can check it in the "power" callback
23:20:24 <supermop_home> if I ask if it is ELRD, do I also need a list of roads that are potentially compatible? of does the roadtype newgrf handle that
23:22:17 <supermop_home> also just on gut feeling, do you feel that dual mode trolley trucks should come after each of the last two trolley trucks, before, or same time
23:23:20 <frosch123> it only works for exact match
23:23:27 <supermop_home> like if trolley truck generations are 1,2,3,4, should dual mode trucks be 2.5, 3.5, or 3.5, 4.5?
23:24:15 <supermop_home> frosch123 so I need to include every possible electric road i know of?
23:25:15 <frosch123> not sure whether dual-mode works well in game
23:25:20 <supermop_home> well currently i think I am the only person who has made non elrd electric roads, so at least I have complete knowledge
23:25:52 <supermop_home> frosch123 thats te point of trolleybi - to test how well electric RVs actually work
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23:36:06 <planetmaker> hm... that indeed makes a LARGE list of tracks to check for at the start of vehicle NewGRFs :)
23:36:38 <planetmaker> But it's basically a one-time setup... write a switch which is called by all vehicles just the same
23:36:43 <frosch123> for trains you just attach two engines to the consist
23:36:49 <frosch123> one regular, one electric
23:37:09 <planetmaker> Well... a regular also works on electric... no need for two
23:37:10 <frosch123> though, that is kind of only more power, not switching
23:37:28 <planetmaker> that's handled via the compatible_ and powered_railtype variables, isn't it?
23:38:09 <frosch123> the point is that you can have multiple train engines, but only one rv engine
23:38:11 <Wolf01> Yes, but at consist level in case of trains, for RVs it's extremely experimental
23:38:46 <frosch123> for a single engine, switching does not work for rail engines either
23:39:16 <frosch123> but we could add some new variable to test poweredness for some other rail/road/tram type
23:40:07 <Wolf01> It's already there, just check the existing one
23:40:53 <Wolf01> We should add a table, calculated on grf load
23:41:27 <Wolf01> A sort of reverse powered_roadtype
23:41:36 <planetmaker> Hm, I can't change power depending on track type for a single vehicle?
23:41:39 <supermop_home> planetmaker presumably not all trucks would get the same power boost though. i was thinking something like a 400hp truck that has 1000hp with electric power, and then the 600 hp truck has 1500hp
23:41:41 <frosch123> Wolf01: newgrf can only check for labels they know
23:41:48 <frosch123> they cannot check for stuff which they do not know
23:41:57 <Wolf01> Newgrfs yes, but the game knows everything
23:42:12 <frosch123> planetmaker: you can, but you have to know the exact tracktype
23:42:35 <planetmaker> supermop, yes, but I mostly meant the switch "is proper road type" which might return "ok to boost" and "no boost"
23:42:37 <frosch123> planetmaker: supermop wants to check for "is compatible to ELRD", not "is ELRD"
23:42:48 <Wolf01> They could ask via callback something like "I'm roadtype X, am I powered on the roadtypes of the current tile?"
23:42:54 <frosch123> only the latter is currently possible
23:43:20 <supermop_home> Wolf01what do you mean
23:43:20 <planetmaker> yes... so indeed: make a switch which checks for ELRD, DUAL, ... and returns either "1" or "0". And then in the calling switch - depending on that - set the vehicle-specific boost
23:43:45 <planetmaker> and when you learn of a new tracktype label which should also act as powered, then add that in that one "is it a compatible road" switch
23:43:49 <frosch123> so, let's add var 63 to the list
23:44:25 <planetmaker> frosch123, not "compatible" but "powered on"
23:45:06 <planetmaker> at least that's how I understand his use case?
23:45:17 <supermop_home> pm so I could do "power: boost_switch"
23:45:17 <Wolf01> supermop, I mean that the grf doesn't need to know which roadtypes there are, they ask the game for that, the game just returns true or false by checking between all the combinations of all the grfs
23:45:18 <frosch123> planetmaker: "compatible" and "powered" are equivalent for roadtypes
23:45:57 <supermop_home> and then boost switch asks, "current_roadtype = ???"
23:46:44 <planetmaker> supermop, yes something like that
23:46:47 <supermop_home> Wolf01 does the game do anything like that in any other cases?
23:47:15 <Wolf01> I don't know, but we might add callbacks like this for both road and rail
23:49:12 <Wolf01> This might help to make easily even dual type engines for rails
23:49:23 <supermop_home> like rack engines
23:49:38 <supermop_home> increase TE when on rack rail?
23:50:39 <Wolf01> Wherever you want to use the result on the grf
23:56:32 <Wolf01> I don't think is possible to have the same power of the closures of other languages, but if we can pass a parameter to a function and get a result back then there are a lot of possibilities
23:57:46 <Wolf01> If we can only read, then... well... that's limited
23:59:10 <supermop_home> currently i can do this?
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