IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-03-17
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00:52:58 <peter1138> hmm, nearing working except for a timing issue :S
02:19:55 <V453000> I don't know what you are talking about at all
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11:07:34 <crem> O_O O_O O_O O_O (movie theatre, view from the screen)
11:08:51 <crem> But it was pretty small theatre hall.
11:12:51 <crem> . <- excavator (far away)
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12:18:16 <Samu> should towns build bridges over rail tracks?
12:25:46 <Wolf01> IMO towns shouldn't build even houses, town growth should be replaced by a special AIs
12:35:45 <Samu> i'm gonna post the patch, though I'm not totally happy about it
12:36:34 <peter1138> I think yes but not exclusively.
12:38:01 <peter1138> And if they place level crossings, it would be good if they can test/build across all parallel tracks and onto the next clear tile.
12:38:14 <Wolf01> Btw, with NRT towns could already be forbidden to build level crossings
12:38:18 <peter1138> That would stop useless level crosses into buildings.
12:39:23 <peter1138> That's why any patch shouldn't be *only* bridges, must be based on newgrf specs and randomness.
12:39:37 <Wolf01> Maybe trying to build bridges after... like 1990, instead of level crossings should be a nice addition
12:48:54 <Samu> the code for avoiding building long bridges over lakes doesn't work that well
12:49:44 <Samu> it works if it's gonna build a ramp going up, but not if it's gonna build ramp going down
12:51:23 <Samu> it asks if it's water, but doesn't care if it's sea, river or canal
12:52:08 <crem> Among those, only sea is salty, right?
13:05:38 <Samu> i have it building bridges over rails, regardless if the bridge leads into a building, it's not that good
13:06:23 <Samu> but then again, this also happens with rivers and sea, not just because i added rails
13:10:52 <peter1138> Yeah that's separate behaviour
13:20:08 <Samu> i need screenshots of it
13:21:03 <peter1138> Why does it limit length?
13:21:15 <peter1138> Bridges already have length limits.
13:22:14 <peter1138> Uh, the patch doesn't have anything about length limits in it.
13:23:11 <peter1138> Well, it does but it's already there, so not relevant to the patch.
13:24:11 <Samu> 5 is enough to cross a double rail
13:24:26 <Samu> this screenshot doesn't make it justice, must generate another
13:24:58 <Samu> oh wait, it does, on the bottom right side, duh, i'm blind
13:25:16 <Samu> those bridges there are length = 5
13:26:21 <Samu> the one on the left side that leads into the rail, is length = 4
13:27:34 <Samu> brb, gonna try generate more screenshots
13:29:08 <peter1138> Yeah but why are you talking about length. Your patch doesn't touch length.
13:30:38 <Samu> i thought it would be worth mentioning
13:30:40 <peter1138> It does nothing with it.
13:39:39 <crem> Wow, one can use A: and B: nowadays for hdd.
13:42:21 <Wolf01> I use B: for a backup network mounted folder
13:42:53 <Wolf01> Not on this pc, here I directly use Z for the NAS
13:46:22 <Samu> interesting thing i noticed, if level crossings are enabled, it can still build them, in certain situations
13:46:51 <Samu> i didn't ruin that, amazing
13:47:52 <Samu> most of the time, it prefers building a bridge, only when it really can't build a bridge, it builds a level crossing
13:47:58 <Wolf01> "It works but I don't know why, musty ship this before I break it down while working some more on it"
13:54:00 <Samu> rail was first, then town expanded later
13:54:22 <Samu> it prefers to expand south with bridges, except that middle part
13:54:50 <Samu> it couldn't really build a bridge in that situation, so it opted for level crossing
13:57:43 <Samu> could be better, but oh well
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14:02:20 <andythenorth> why does importing Windows 10 & IE Edge make iTunes skip? :P
14:03:54 <andythenorth> mac has gone laggy, even though CPU and IO are doing piss all
14:06:07 <andythenorth> :o Windows 10 is not the Windows I am used to :P
14:06:56 <Wolf01> You'll end up with windows 10 on hardware and OS X on VM as soon as windows will start taking control of the machine
14:07:00 <andythenorth> what is One Drive and why do I have to update it straight away?
14:07:15 <andythenorth> “If I want to continue using it"
14:07:20 <andythenorth> I just booted for first time
14:07:25 <andythenorth> I haven’t used it afaik
14:08:02 <andythenorth> Why is Cortana popping me up asking me to ask it stuff?
14:08:38 <Samu> there is no support for Cortana on my country
14:08:38 <andythenorth> tbf, this isn’t unique to Windows, current versions of macOS do dumb shit as well when you first get them
14:09:01 <andythenorth> Cortana is listening to me?
14:09:13 <andythenorth> wtf is that doing enabled by default
14:09:14 <crem> I'm waiting so much windows os to become subscription based.
14:09:38 <Samu> can't tell what she really does
14:15:22 <Wolf01> No andy, Cortana is the entire API, not just the chitty-chatty part
14:17:55 <andythenorth> I’ll have to turn that off…security
14:20:33 <Wolf01> And don't forget to disable the ads ID on the privacy tab
14:22:08 <Wolf01> Disable "occasionally show suggestions" (or what is called) in the customization->start
14:33:52 <supermop> andy on windows?????
14:35:30 <Wolf01> Dunno what for... on VM you can't play games :P
14:41:54 <supermop> not working out so well huh
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15:12:30 * peter1138 grumbles about mother's day spam.
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15:18:42 * andythenorth grumbles about Virgin
15:18:47 <andythenorth> making me change modem
15:26:03 <andythenorth> seems faster, after an hour of fucking around with set up :)
16:05:41 <supermop> do you have it looking at your face to log you in?
16:16:55 <Samu> peter1138: problem is... the AI is assuming that buoys are always placed, doesn't deal with the error message if the patch is implemented
16:17:20 <peter1138> Yes exactly. And what's the point.
16:18:06 <Samu> i have some other patches for water construction that actually facilitate placing
16:18:26 <Samu> but then again, AIs are not prepared to handle them graciously
16:18:56 <peter1138> I'm in favour of removing things that don't add anything
16:19:12 <peter1138> I use Gnome after all ;)
16:19:59 <Samu> i have one patch which allows placing docks when the 3rd tile check, water tile, is half-filled with water
16:20:33 <Samu> some AIs just place the dock and it results in closing the tiny passage, they end up blocking the ships themselves
16:20:51 <Samu> it eases construction from the point of a human player, but not so for the AI
16:22:39 <planetmaker> The AI can check that themselves, too. They're just too lazy. And it's a game (mostly) for humans. So making it difficult or annoying for those for the sake of a few AI which could solve that, too, if they were better maintained, is IMHO not the right way
16:27:22 <Samu> what i was talking about
16:34:49 <Samu> this one really helps AI, but hinders HU
16:35:15 <Samu> perhaps not as much though
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16:36:02 <Samu> AIs tend to build multiple docks close to each other, leading to blockades
16:36:23 <Samu> with this patch, if I recall, ships never got blocked cause of multiple docks
16:42:32 <Samu> town growth tend to block passageways to ships
16:43:05 <andythenorth> Alberth: I wanted to complete Iron Horse make first ;)
16:43:06 <Samu> helps AI a great deal actually
16:43:11 <andythenorth> FIRS one is thus a stub
16:44:19 <Samu> AIs just amass ships, hindering game performance
16:44:38 <Samu> main cause was towns blocking passage with buildings and such
16:45:12 <andythenorth> Alberth: I have 2 confusions
16:45:27 <Samu> oh well i dunno if peter1138 is listening yet :( I guess not
16:46:01 <Alberth> oh, the "build.py" file, makes sense
16:46:28 <andythenorth> 1. I don’t know how to specify graphics deps to be accurate, but also maintainable
16:46:56 <andythenorth> 2. my projects have 2 kinds of ‘docs’; html docs that I care about, and the license.txt and changelog.txt that _nobody_ cares about
16:49:17 <Alberth> $(GRF_FILE): generated/graphics generated/lang $(NML_FILE) <-- $(GRF_FILE): $(GRAPHICS) $(LANG) $(NML_FILE)
16:49:50 <Alberth> although directory is not what you want, I guess
16:50:25 <Alberth> you actually want the source files themselves
16:52:14 <Alberth> standard trick for that is to make a dummy time-stamp file that you 'touch' when you re-generate eg the graphics
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16:55:28 <Alberth> you can make that dependent on the times of the graphics source files (ie files used by src/render_graphics.py)
16:56:29 <andythenorth> oops, I intended to use $(GRAPHICS) etc :).
16:56:33 <Alberth> so if you touch a graphics source file, graphics.timestamp must be rebuilt, and it triggers a run of the python script, and an updated time-stamp of the dummy file. That in turn triggers the nml to be recreated
16:58:19 <Alberth> oh, graphics.timestamp must be in the grf_file rule, my example uses the wrong nml rule
17:00:09 <Alberth> (nml doesn't need to be recreated when you change graphics)
17:01:29 <andythenorth> probably anything in src/graphics, and src/graphics_processor
17:01:53 <andythenorth> but also if any vehicle changes, or the vehicle classes in train.py, or global constants defining cargos
17:02:14 <andythenorth> or if the rosters change, or iron_horse.py
17:02:24 <andythenorth> so ~everything is a dep for graphics :P
17:02:57 <Alberth> GRAPHICS_SOURCES = $(shell bin/find-files src/graphics src/graphics_processor)
17:03:35 <Alberth> perhaps just run the graphics generator each time when you generate the nml?
17:03:59 <Alberth> no point in making it a separate step if you do it every time anyway
17:05:02 <Alberth> oh, perhaps every time you build the grf instead
17:05:22 <Alberth> stil confusing nml generation with grf generation :)
17:05:29 <andythenorth> it’s nice to have the different elements decomposed :)
17:05:36 <andythenorth> it’s useful when developing
17:06:29 <andythenorth> for graphics, I think so
17:06:42 <andythenorth> in principle 10-15s could be saved by not, but it’s a source of likely bugs
17:08:12 <Alberth> the .PHONY line says 'there is a target named 'graphics', but don't bother finding a time-stamp for it'
17:08:31 <Alberth> so it's always out of date when you need it
17:09:32 <andythenorth> ok, I’ll add that in a bit
17:09:38 * andythenorth has to do school run shortly
17:09:57 <Alberth> running around the school :p
17:10:33 <andythenorth> I’ve pushed some tidying
17:12:38 <Alberth> htnl_docs should also be .PHONY, I think
17:13:16 <andythenorth> I find it confusing that docs and html_docs have to be treated separately :P
17:13:43 <andythenorth> I considered shipping the html docs in the tar
17:14:01 <andythenorth> they’re quite big, about 2MB in FIRS case
17:14:08 <andythenorth> but eh, how big is YETI? :P
17:14:19 <Alberth> that's perhaps my fault, I never considered your html docs, I only say docs/*txt files in the output
17:14:30 <andythenorth> it’s a long-standing issue tbh :)
17:14:56 <Alberth> you're not a yeti-size grf, I think :p
17:15:10 <andythenorth> IH docs compress to 138KB
17:15:23 <Alberth> that seems quite nice
17:15:25 <andythenorth> the decision about whether to ship them in the tar was never concluded
17:15:33 <andythenorth> but I am thinking they should
17:15:52 <andythenorth> sites send me 1MB of JS just for a single page
17:15:58 <Alberth> now we only need an html browser in openttd :p
17:16:19 <andythenorth> frosch was contemplating one, or trolling me
17:45:09 <peter1138> Samu, posts aren't deleted just because they are implemented
17:51:43 <peter1138> Lots of posts are worthless.
17:52:11 <Samu> and it's bugged too, and implemented
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17:55:18 <Alberth> not useful to you doesn't mean it's not useful in general
17:56:28 <Samu> i'd have to fix something that is already correctly implemented :(
17:56:28 <Alberth> if usefulness to the author of the post was the only reason to write, nobody would ever post anything, as by definition, the author already knows what he writes (you can't write something you don't know)
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18:00:11 <peter1138> Some people do go around deleting their posts when something is resolved.
18:00:16 <peter1138> It's bloody annoying.
18:00:31 <peter1138> It's not how forums work!
18:01:14 <peter1138> I'm ignoring that Canadian guy's outrage :p
18:01:56 <Samu> what do i do about it? fix something that is already implemented? :(
18:02:14 <Samu> feels bad to leave it there
18:02:21 <supermop> peter1138: for some certain definitions of 'resolved' in that case i guess
18:03:05 <Samu> feels pointless to fix as well, hmm ughhh
18:03:23 <Alberth> add a note it has been correctly implemented
18:03:28 <peter1138> Just leave it and it'll fall off the list.
18:04:26 <Alberth> at the time, you believed it was the right solution. That's history you want to preserve. Nowadays, you have new insights, so tell them
18:05:19 <Alberth> if you delete history, people are not going to understand how you arrived at the point that you do explain
18:05:47 <Alberth> if you delete all, people may try to do it all again, without the opportunity to learn from previous efforts
18:06:43 <Alberth> now if only git was so consistent too... :p
18:06:46 <andythenorth> I don't need your civil war
18:06:47 <andythenorth> It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
18:07:10 * andythenorth happened to be listening, and got reminded of our Canadian friend
18:08:00 <Samu> oki, i edited the topic, hope it's not bumped to front page
18:08:32 <andythenorth> peter1138: there are probably some canset-related FS issues that could be closed :P
18:09:16 <andythenorth> Alberth: so I need .PHONY for graphics?
18:10:29 <peter1138> Samu, no need to *edit* it either, but never mind.
18:11:20 <Alberth> andy: yeah, it avoids accidents if you make by accident a file called 'graphics' and make starts looking at the time stamp of that file
18:12:09 <andythenorth> ok so L20 I have already GRAPHICS = generated/graphics
18:12:13 <andythenorth> do I keep that or delete? o_O
18:13:02 <Alberth> a variable and a target are different things
18:13:37 <Alberth> if you get confused, you may want to rename one of them (or both)
18:13:46 <Alberth> computer doesn't mind, afaik
18:13:59 <andythenorth> GRAPHICS_FILES or so?
18:16:39 <andythenorth> can I add ‘graphics’ target to the existing .PHONY list on L53
18:17:46 <Alberth> you may want to move that line a bit up then, but it's likely not relevant
18:18:02 <andythenorth> I can also extend the clean list
18:18:19 <andythenorth> strictly clean could just ‘rm -r generated’
18:19:09 <Alberth> I folded a 'exists' tests around it, I think, I prefer that rather than -f, but ymmv
18:19:35 <andythenorth> I like the exists test, previous makefile spat warnings if the dirs didn’t exist
18:20:44 <Alberth> bit of a corner case whether it's worth writing a python script for that
18:21:53 <andythenorth> I can at least read the python script without much effort ;)
18:22:37 <andythenorth> I’ve pushed some more stuff
18:22:46 <andythenorth> I think clean now cleans up correctly
18:22:59 <andythenorth> although I previously had it removing nml and chameleon caches also
18:23:30 <andythenorth> not sure if that’s correct or not
18:23:46 <andythenorth> caches can cause spurious errors to persist even when fixed in src
18:23:53 <andythenorth> so safer to remove in my experience
18:24:59 <Alberth> you're the boss to decide what 'clean' does :)
18:30:22 <Alberth> you can split the line by a \ at the end (no spaces or tabs behind it!)
18:31:05 <Alberth> not sure what the src/*/__pycache__ thing does if there are not python caches, the shell may give a warning
18:31:55 * andythenorth pushed the split line
18:32:13 <andythenorth> ok, now for docs :)
18:32:27 <Alberth> maybe your shell is "smart" and keeps src/*/__pycache__ which the 'exists' check then discards :)
18:32:49 <Alberth> but works, so done :)
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18:36:04 <ZirconiumX> Is there any way to find out why Cargodist is giving a negative profit for a route?
18:37:16 <Alberth> cargodist doesn't do that
18:37:28 <Alberth> it's purely the cargo you're moving
18:39:10 <Alberth> ie check where cargo is coming from, and going to
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18:43:04 <andythenorth> oops, I broke bundle_tar
18:43:26 <ZirconiumX> I also have £1,337k.
18:44:14 <Alberth> 1M is enough, you can stop playing, and exchange it at the bank
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18:48:20 <andythenorth> structuring the bundle is a bit of faff
18:48:33 <andythenorth> I can see how the coop makefile got complicated
18:48:43 <andythenorth> I need to build license.txt in the docs dir
18:48:50 <andythenorth> then move that to the bundle dir
18:48:58 <andythenorth> then copy docs dir into bundle dir
18:49:19 <Samu> are you a pathfinder expert? I'm looking for someone who understands what Aystar code is doing
18:49:52 <Alberth> no need to move files, mk-archive collects from anywhere
18:50:03 <Samu> i wanted to make river generation code friendly to locks, so far all my efforts have failed me
18:50:33 <Samu> goal was to generate rivers which are friendly for lock placement during map creation
18:51:08 <Samu> make ships great on openttd
18:51:19 <Alberth> Samu: A* explanations all around the Interwebs
18:52:16 <Samu> i guess i also need a slope expert
18:52:55 <Alberth> examine 1 thing at a time
18:53:29 <Alberth> trying to do it all at the same time is very fast very difficult
18:55:11 <Samu> i examined the slope part, looks perfected to check tile by tile, but not the surrounding tiles
18:56:10 <Samu> it marks tiles for the pathfinder, and that's the unknown part
18:57:14 <Alberth> could be, I never looked at that code
18:57:48 <Alberth> aystar is horribly complicated though
18:58:01 <Alberth> so many layers of templates on top of each other
18:58:47 <Alberth> also, it's heavily optimized, so not simple to understand at all
18:58:52 <Samu> seems that when the pathfinder starts building, it picks random directions
18:58:59 <Samu> no matter what tiles I mark
19:00:51 <Samu> static bool FlowsDown(TileIndex begin, TileIndex end)
19:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> weird... something broke, and i can't move any windows...
19:00:58 <Samu> line 1000 at landscape.cpp
19:01:29 <andythenorth> Alberth: bin/mk-archive expects only files, never dirs?
19:01:29 <Samu> that part is what decides which tiles are marked
19:01:37 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: the window manager (sets focus, etc)
19:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but focus and stuff works fine
19:01:51 <Alberth> andythenorth: also directories
19:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> also, minimizing/maximizing
19:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> just not move...
19:02:13 <andythenorth> Alberth: do dirs need some flag?
19:02:27 <andythenorth> I’m trying to feed it the docs/ dir
19:02:33 <Alberth> andythenorth: no, afaik just list them
19:02:58 <Alberth> it should include the contents recursively
19:03:11 <Alberth> you can try it at the command-line
19:03:49 <Alberth> note that --flatten removes directory trees :p
19:03:59 <andythenorth> mk-archive ERROR: Path 'docs' is not a file
19:04:00 <Alberth> you may want to read --help a bit :)
19:04:33 <andythenorth> (bin35) iron-horse$ bin/mk-archive -o=foo.tar docs
19:04:33 <Alberth> sounds like something that needs extending then?
19:04:39 <andythenorth> or I use it wrong?
19:05:02 <Alberth> not sure, it looks reasonable
19:05:12 <Alberth> it works if you give it a file?
19:06:03 <Alberth> may be default though
19:06:11 <andythenorth> works fine with a file
19:06:34 <Alberth> ok, I think it's reasonable to give a directory to it
19:08:56 <Alberth> sanity checking would break with --flatten, so it needs more work
19:10:32 <andythenorth> zip the dir, move the zip, unzip it :P
19:10:37 * andythenorth redneck solutions
19:10:54 <Wormnest_> Samu: No, I know a little bit of what it does but certainly not an expert
19:12:37 <Alberth> andythenorth: 'fix' line 159 err = None # err = check_uniq_filenames(args, flatten)
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19:15:21 <ZirconiumX> Don't you just love NewGRFs not playing along nicely?
19:18:33 <andythenorth> Alberth: moves the dir, but not the contents :D
19:18:57 <andythenorth> 80% is easy, it’s always the 20% :P
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19:25:50 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: depends on your definitions of "leader", "free" or "world", i suppose...
19:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: and possibly "live"
19:27:59 <Montana> you forgot speaking too
19:29:30 <Wolf01> And what about "of the"?
19:40:53 <Samu> what are the SET_MARK doing?
19:41:36 <Samu> i see it clears the marks right before calling the aystar to build the river
19:41:51 <Samu> pathfinder doesn't see these marks, :( I don't get this
19:47:21 <Samu> what's a breadth first search :(
19:48:08 <andythenorth> possible entry points?
19:48:53 <ZirconiumX> But A* isn't Breadth first, it's Best first
19:50:43 <Samu> /* Breadth first search for the closest tile we can flow down to. */
19:51:10 <Samu> it's trying to locate an inclined slope?
19:51:15 <Alberth> search in every direction, closest unexamined tile first
19:52:38 <Alberth> andythenorth:: interesting that it skips the content :) will have a look tomorrow
20:11:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: ok cool, I am afk soon also
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20:29:19 <andythenorth> I see no reason to not have it in ottd
20:29:23 <andythenorth> it’s not a balancing issue
20:29:34 <andythenorth> ships already have clipping issues
20:29:40 <andythenorth> tunnels already have clipping issues
20:29:48 <andythenorth> so it’s not a graphics issue either
20:31:29 <Alberth> what, first ship tunnel?
20:32:01 <Alberth> I am pretty sure I saw tunnels for ships aged around the start of the industrial revolution
20:32:44 <Alberth> true, but it's not the first by any means
20:33:49 <Eddi|zuHause> france has loads of ship tunnels that date from before industrialisation
20:34:51 <Alberth> have hilly enough country, and sooner or later someone is going to dig a tunnel
20:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and they had really extensive channel projects
20:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> like dating back to louis XIV
20:36:57 <Wolf01> Yeah they indeed have a nice channel network
20:37:33 <supermop> sounds like cable tv
20:38:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think louis XIV knew about cable tv
20:38:50 <Wolf01> They performed naval battles at Versailles!
20:39:58 <Eddi|zuHause> what else would you do without cable tv? :p
20:40:47 <Wolf01> The same as I do now, as I don't watch tv if not for the rare moments I pass through the living room to get to the kitchen
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20:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but you have this box in front of you that performs naval battles and stuff
20:41:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably performed more naval battles than all 18th century versailles people combined
20:42:23 <Wolf01> Probably, let me check how many hours I played Windward
20:43:09 <Wolf01> Not much, only 68 hours
20:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> there are more games with naval battles...
20:43:49 <Wolf01> I should play patrician 3 and 4
20:44:18 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i have only like 30 hours
20:50:53 <Alberth> RL battles perhaps lasted days?
20:59:32 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
21:27:23 * peter1138 ponders the chances of nvidia drivers working with an RT kernel
21:31:49 <Eddi|zuHause> what would you need an RT kernel for?
21:49:05 <SpComb> are your buffers not long enough
22:00:00 <peter1138> Low latency for realtime MIDI synthesis. Like wot I did with Belugas.
22:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> try like a virtual realtime?
22:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> PLC simulation uses stuff like that
22:08:25 <peter1138> It's not real realtime anyway, as it's Linux.
22:20:21 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd
23:04:34 <peter1138> v->NeedsServicing is a pain ;(
23:25:52 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd
23:47:03 <peter1138> Doesn't seem to help anyway.
23:47:19 <peter1138> Oh, rtirq might work
23:48:34 <peter1138> Hmm, no, it was already there.
continue to next day ⏵