IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-03-13
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08:26:51 <peter1138> hmm, where's gradual loading in the settings window?
08:37:12 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r27788 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2017-03-13 08:37:05 +0100 )
08:37:13 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6536]: Get vehicle load amount after executing new cargo trigger.
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09:39:07 <samu> this isn't working for me :( have to use kiwiirc.com
09:39:17 <samu> it's a bit clumsy this one
09:39:55 <samu> anyone having the same problem?
10:03:58 <peter1138> No, everyone else uses a proper IRC client.
10:06:48 <crem> The most proper IRC client is telnet!
10:15:02 <samu> the size of an intercontinental airport is 9/11... terrible coincidence
10:18:33 <__ln__> what's worse, there are no continents in the game
10:19:12 <peter1138> Yeah well, we absolutely had to have these giant airports...
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11:16:08 <peter1138> You tarzan! Me train!
11:20:51 <peter1138> (Stupid microsoft, sending me a 0 byte aspx file to download)
11:22:19 <peter1138> YOu have chosen to open:
11:22:27 <peter1138> which is: ASP.NET page (0 bytes)
11:23:40 <LordAro> what is this, *more* peter1138 commits?
11:23:44 <LordAro> what have we done to you
11:23:45 <Wolf01> I have castles, trucks, some starwars, western and space too
11:30:50 <peter1138> LordAro, careful, you don't want me committing during office hours...
11:31:21 <peter1138> I've closed off a couple of bugs but really, 805 outstanding is terrible.
11:34:24 <peter1138> Who's doing the road types work?
11:34:45 <peter1138> Wondering if FS#6517 would be catered for.
11:35:19 <Wolf01> Yes, I'm already doing that
11:36:29 <Wolf01> You have to choose the right roadtype with the flag enabled, it isn't wnabled for every roadtype
11:37:18 <peter1138> Yeah, i figured you'd have a flag on the road type that would solve the "issue"
11:37:36 <peter1138> If you're doing it, I will add a note to the task
11:46:35 <samu> hey peter1138 what you're working on now? :p
11:52:03 <samu> instead of rail upgrading with a ship on the tile, it's building a rail with a ship on the tile
11:52:53 <LordAro> a significant number of the bug reports are invalid or old
11:52:57 <LordAro> just needs someone to go through them
11:54:35 <peter1138> I did a couple. It is soul-destroying :)
11:54:44 <LordAro> i'm tempted to volunteer, but...
11:57:11 <Wolf01> <LordAro> just needs someone to go through them <- andy :P
11:57:15 <peter1138> What the heck is that and why should we care...
11:58:04 <LordAro> Wolf01: yeah, but he couldn't close any of them
11:58:38 <Wolf01> Look for andy's comments "this bug could be closed"
11:59:26 <peter1138> I don't think that's searchable.
11:59:39 <peter1138> But it should be possible to assign rights.
12:02:38 <LordAro> would it work with the magical auth system though?
12:06:32 <peter1138> I guess that makes assigning a group harder.
12:06:46 <peter1138> I have no idea how that all works or who has access to it. Not me certainly.
12:07:29 <Wolf01> I configured the flyspray for my company some time ago
12:07:46 <peter1138> Yeah, this one is hacked around though.
12:08:02 <Wolf01> But I used the 1.0 beta, or alpha or what it was
12:08:13 <Wolf01> It's slightly different
12:21:33 <peter1138> FS#5100 - [OSX] Openttd 1.1.5 on mac os x 10.6.8 crashes when ai starts up < seems out of date :p
12:39:59 <samu> i'm gathering "end of life" lifetime profit of all aircraft models
12:40:12 <samu> that lifetime profit patch on the forum is awesome
13:11:15 <peter1138> Hmm, a patch I wrote 4 years ago...
13:12:04 <samu> are you burty on the forum? i was using his patch
13:22:17 <samu> how to balance aircraft hmm :(
13:30:37 <samu> i'm getting some interesting results for those aircraft past 2012
13:35:25 <ZirconiumX> Devs: if you cast a NULL pointer to a type, is this null dereferencing?
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13:39:43 <peter1138> Has it been dereferenced?
13:44:15 <ZirconiumX> int * i = (int *)NULL;
13:45:13 <ZirconiumX> I forgot my DeLorean, __ln__
13:55:19 <Wolf01> Samu, don't even try to over-balance transports in OTTD or you will get Blizzard syndrome
13:56:14 <peter1138> And then newgrfs come along anyway.
14:15:49 <V453000> what is blizzard syndrome? :D
14:16:29 <__ln__> ZirconiumX: is that C or C++?
14:17:52 <Wolf01> Balance terrans vs zerg, now are too much powerful against protoss, then balance protoss and zerg, no wait, maybe nerf terrans, buff them again because nerfed too much, but if we change the hydralisk maybe goliaths work better but there are dragoons which are shit then...
14:18:20 <Wolf01> And after 20 years are still trying to balance everything
14:18:31 <__ln__> ZirconiumX: still, even C89 doesn't require explicitly casting NULL at assignment to pointer type.
14:19:03 <ZirconiumX> Strictly speaking, it's not directly that code
14:19:40 <ZirconiumX> But if somebody passes NULL as a parameter, I was wondering if you needed to check for NULL before casting or not
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14:25:44 <peter1138> Wonder why I overengineered that quick hack patch...
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14:46:12 <samu> screw starccraft, blizzard killed that franchise
14:50:09 <supermop> samu - i thought the point was that people liked to play the old one
14:51:06 <Wolf01> The point is "don't fuck with things when they already work"
14:55:12 <peter1138> hmm, a patch for fast ships...
14:56:16 <samu> problem was that these aircraft were to go into a 256x256 map
14:56:26 <samu> now maps can go up to 4096x4096 :(
14:57:33 <samu> perhaps a quick "fix" was to limit all vanilla aircraft to 256+256
14:57:57 <peter1138> newgrf can limit distance
14:59:26 <supermop> samu: what is the point of 'fixing' vanilla anything? other than generating complaints from people?
14:59:46 <supermop> when pikka put range limits into av8 tons of people complained
15:00:51 <samu> how does range work exactly? must test, brb
15:01:37 <supermop> vanilla stuff should generally be: "this works as much like you remember it did 20 years ago as possible" and is extrapolated to new circumstances in the simplest way
15:02:27 <supermop> i actually wouldn't mind vanilla aircraft having ranges, and i think i've actually argues for that explicitly in the past
15:02:53 <supermop> but too many people will complain - vanilla needs to be all things to all people
15:03:45 <peter1138> I tend to complain about large maps instead ;p
15:04:27 <supermop> haha yeah - you could argue that most balance issues could be solved by just removing all map sizes other than 256
15:06:28 <samu> aircraft stands stopped in the airport
15:07:01 <samu> i thought it would force a breakdown if the aircraft had traveled x tiles
15:07:13 <peter1138> that's probably a better way
15:09:25 <supermop> in real life, i generally prefer if the airplane i am going to ride on refuses to take off without enough fuel
15:10:15 <supermop> someone had a patch for RV ranges that worked by dropping reliability beyond range
15:10:34 <supermop> that way you could 'refuel' in depots for long trips
15:12:27 <supermop> the problem is that for most vehicles, maximum ranges are far beyond a typical working journey, so many users would complain if a vehicle had to stop for fuel en route
15:12:58 <supermop> when was the last time you rode a train that ran out of gas? (actually happened to my brother on Amtrak once)
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15:13:19 <__ln__> true, airlines in openttd probably would get FAA approval
15:14:40 <supermop> generally, unless the operator is negligent (like amtrak, or some airlines), a vehicle will always have plenty of range to go farther thn you need it too
15:15:48 <supermop> and many serious and casual players would expect this in game as well, and would find scheduling a bus to stop 3 times for fuel between cities to be a insufferable pain in the ass
15:16:36 <supermop> adding more busy work rarely makes the game fun for casual players using default vehicles
15:17:20 <supermop> and serious players who might want to consider fuel and range will never agree on how many tiles a bus, plane, etc should be able to go
15:17:39 <__ln__> btw, does the openttd ATC still have the same idiots scheduling the planes for landing?
15:18:31 <supermop> there is no ATC, whoever happens to be right in front of the approach when the runway clears gets to go
15:18:54 <samu> I was thinking... normal reliability before 512 range, then plummet it to 0 after travelling that much
15:19:03 <ZirconiumX> I once sent 300 Concordes to a City airport. Was an interesting experience.
15:19:13 <supermop> so yeah planes stuck in holding would need to start falling out of the sky when they run out
15:19:25 <supermop> samu: that is great idea for a newgrf
15:19:53 <supermop> but for a lot of players, 512 tiles might seem like just the region around one city
15:19:55 <ZirconiumX> Can that be implemented in NewGRF? (Sorry, I don't speak NFO)
15:20:23 <samu> and of course, if breakdowns are disabled, then the aircraft always go full speed
15:20:34 <supermop> i personally expect a 747 to be able to travel halfway around the world
15:20:39 <samu> would only work if breakdowns are at least, reduced
15:21:06 <__ln__> would it ruin everyone's game experience if there was a smarter algorithm scheduling planes for landing?
15:21:08 <supermop> i consider the 'world' bigger than 1024 tiles
15:21:11 <ZirconiumX> OpenTTD's scale is odd in that regard
15:21:59 <supermop> __ln__: no i think that is one of the few areas where nearly everyone would agree on changing default behavior
15:22:11 <ZirconiumX> I think a fairly simple FIFO queue would do okay, since OpenTTD has no concept of vehicle priority.
15:23:36 <__ln__> also permitting starting approach while the previous plane is still on the runway would help a bit
15:24:20 <supermop> ZirconiumX: different ideas about scale are a reason aircraft ranges are controversial
15:25:20 <supermop> everyone seemed to want ranges to reduce power of aircraft, but then everyone had a different expectation for how far an aircraft range should be
15:25:42 <peter1138> supermop, it's not really "default" behaviour
15:25:57 <peter1138> the default airports were fine
15:26:00 <peter1138> they are obviously small
15:26:21 <peter1138> the giant airports seem to just suffer as you have tons of planes flying around and the airports are mostly empty
15:26:46 <supermop> peter1138: i always ended up with jammed airports in TTO even
15:26:47 <samu> there's a problem with the profit formula, especially for aircraft, I had this dealt with, it favours axis over diagonals
15:27:09 <ZirconiumX> I think the giant airports need bidirectional takeoff/landing
15:27:09 <supermop> anc concordes skipping the line
15:27:33 <supermop> samu: i don't really see it as a problem
15:28:09 <ZirconiumX> The profit formula is Manhattan distance, right?
15:28:19 <samu> instead of DistanceManhattan, i used DistanceMaxManhattan / 2 with a patch
15:28:48 <supermop> ZirconiumX: i dont know if that would change much, in game we end up with planes spending more time taxiing than at the gate
15:29:10 <supermop> so the runways are always jammed even if only one plane is actually loading
15:29:11 <samu> well, it had the biggest impact on aircraft
15:29:13 <ZirconiumX> So travelling diagonally should be, what, 2x profit for sqrt(2) more running time?
15:29:55 <samu> road vehicles however, suffer from this fix
15:30:04 <Wolf01> Make airplanes load slowly
15:30:11 <peter1138> samu, so you just halfed it. Doesn't seem to solve anything.
15:30:43 <supermop> plane stays at a gate longer than a bus at a bus stop in real life
15:31:20 <supermop> although then we'll get a newgrf for metro style planes with 20 doors down the side and standing room only onboard
15:31:52 <Wolf01> Just pre-load people on containers
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15:32:07 <peter1138> Cargo type: Slaves.
15:32:13 <Wolf01> Intermodal containers, so you can just move them to buses
15:33:23 <samu> peter1138: i can't remember details, but when i was working on a formula for the cargo payment
15:34:01 <samu> i came to see that openTTD already had a function that would achieve the same results
15:34:12 <samu> but i had to divide the result / 2
15:35:31 <samu> instead of creating a formula of my own, i merelly used DistanceMaxManhattan instead
15:36:11 <samu> it would be a repeat of it, except that I was already doing /2
15:49:42 <samu> DistanceManhattan(source, dest)
15:49:56 <samu> DistanceMaxPlusManhattan(source, dest) / 2
15:53:07 <samu> must investigate code regarding "Range" feature for aircraft, brb
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16:01:32 <supermop> good to see Andy on the warpath lobbying for more NRT newgrfs
16:07:05 <Wolf01> I should look at the possibility to check the number of roadtypes directly on the grf window, so if you add too many roadtypes and you apply or close the window it should tell you that before you start a new game
16:07:24 <Wolf01> Maybe for railtypes too
16:09:54 <supermop> hmm what if the new game window had a little list of types
16:10:16 <supermop> for you could see, these are the 15 types you will get if you start the game?
16:10:58 <Wolf01> It should be done for everything, even for newstations or newobjects
16:11:34 <Alberth> newgrf may change its list depending on eg mapsize or climate or something
16:12:17 <Alberth> so you'd need to re-initialize on every change in the newgame window, I guess
16:12:44 <Wolf01> It should be done by loading grfs before generating the map, then you could have a preview of what you actually get in the game... the problem is the re-initialization
16:23:23 <samu> is there a current flight time property on aircraft?
16:23:40 <samu> there's a current order time, which isn't exactly the same thing
16:24:23 <samu> i can have it stopped inside a depot
16:24:34 <samu> this time still increases
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16:46:11 <supermop> maybe they left the engines on in the hangar
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18:31:42 <samu> if (this->state == FLYING) this->acache.current_flight_time++;
18:32:15 <samu> storing flight time in ticks, how large does it need to be?
18:33:36 <samu> uint16 current_flight_time; ///< Current flight time since last takeoff.
18:38:04 <peter1138> Why a cache? What happens when you load a savegame?
18:38:50 <peter1138> What happens if it overflows?
18:39:04 <samu> needs savegame conversion
18:39:15 <samu> needs to keep track of the current flight time
18:39:36 <peter1138> Caches aren't stored.
18:39:58 <peter1138> That's the point of them, they cache values that can be recalculated.
18:41:19 <peter1138> Well you can simply put your variable inside the Aircraft class.
18:45:23 <supermop_> so my parents ended up with $4000 in delta vouchers this weekend after getting repeatedly bumped from oversold flights
18:47:16 <samu> current_flight_time will be stored in byte too
18:47:52 <samu> how many ticks can there be in a byte
18:48:55 <peter1138> That's 3.5 days of travelling.
18:49:48 <samu> what is the tick_counter counting after all?
18:51:46 <samu> tick counter counts to 255, then what happens? i dont get it
18:52:28 <samu> how is the game able to store vehicle age
18:52:51 <Wolf01> Maybe it does a subtraction
18:55:49 <peter1138> age is not stored with the tick_counter.
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19:03:04 <samu> what is the first year of openttd and the last year of openttd
19:03:59 <samu> how to store the tick difference between absolute minimum year and absolute maximum
19:04:57 <samu> looking at the worst case scenario
19:09:09 <ZirconiumX> Let's start a game in 200 BC and simulate the roman empire's transportation network :p
19:09:22 <samu> well, since i'm changing the breakdown functions slightly to accomodate for this flight time, how long does it take for a vehicle to breakdown with reliability at 100%, best scenario
19:09:27 <Wolf01> With NRT should be easier now
19:10:06 <planetmaker> samu: it's a probability... so at best it never breaks down. At worst it immediately breaks down
19:10:08 <glx> 100% reliability should not breakdown
19:11:39 <samu> reliability can only go down
19:12:06 <glx> no it goes up when you visit a depot
19:12:46 <samu> aircraft is in flight, the counter only acts when it's flying, it can't head to depot
19:13:17 <samu> when it lands, counter is reseted
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19:16:17 <samu> perhaps i don't have to store in ticks
19:16:20 <samu> let me check this better
19:16:27 <samu> i can maybe store in days
19:18:34 <samu> CheckVehicleBreakdown(Vehicle *v) is on daily
19:18:36 <ZirconiumX> A wild planetmaker appears.
19:19:25 <samu> Vehicle::HandleBreakdown() is every tick, but refers to those on daily values
19:19:43 <samu> so.. ya i can store flight time in days
19:20:15 <Zuu> Hmm CluelessPlus likes valuators too much. :-)
19:20:41 <ZirconiumX> Have you used a valuator to sort your valuators by their valuation capability?
19:20:55 <Zuu> Though so far I have only had it get killed in HQ construction by new OpenTTD version.
19:21:13 <Zuu> This case was a nested valuator call.
19:22:39 <planetmaker> oh, and a Zuu appears, too :)
19:23:09 <planetmaker> I should say 'hi everyone' :)
19:23:23 <Zuu> That's how to sumon me, break my AI :-p
19:24:27 <Zuu> Although what first grabbed my attention was trying out RATT.
19:24:52 <planetmaker> that's another AI?
19:25:23 <Zuu> That's andys new ponnie or so.
19:28:17 <planetmaker> oh, I thought that's called NRT :)
19:28:56 <Zuu> It says RATT on the forum I think.
19:35:23 <frosch123> hmm, when did i start a ottd server the last time?
19:35:54 <frosch123> somehow i am no longer able to start a local server and client on the same machine
19:36:04 <frosch123> but the last os upgrade is like 2 years ago :p
19:37:18 <peter1138> "Looking for the Perfect Mother's Day Gift?"
19:37:24 <peter1138> Yeah, no, that'd be pointless.
19:45:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27789 /trunk/src/lang (greek.txt polish.txt) (2017-03-13 19:45:37 +0100 )
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> polish: 3 changes by wojteks86
19:45:50 <DorpsGek> greek: 1 change by kyrm
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19:57:51 <frosch123> ah, apparently i configured a compeltely different port the last time i started an ottd server
20:00:10 <ZirconiumX> Hate to ask a dumb question, but why does a dedicated server need a graphics set?
20:01:14 <frosch123> because the original mapgenerator needs it, and noone removed the requirement when not using the original mapgen
20:03:09 <ZirconiumX> IOW for legacy reasons
20:03:42 <frosch123> the is a NoGRF baseset btw
20:03:52 <frosch123> it has all empty sprites except for mapgen
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20:17:26 <frosch123> ZirconiumX: possibly
20:17:33 <frosch123> i don't think i ever used it myself
20:17:35 <ZirconiumX> I admire your confidence?
20:19:21 <frosch123> though it's still pretty big with 270 kib
20:19:41 <frosch123> maybe it was never "finished"
20:21:32 <planetmaker> I think it worked
20:21:52 <planetmaker> maybe it even is still generated from opengfx builds... it's not like it needs to follow sprite additions at all
20:22:37 <ZirconiumX> It seems to work, yeah
20:23:30 <ZirconiumX> Of course, the bad news is that OpenTTD's multiplayer version matching is annoying if fail-safe.
20:23:33 <frosch123> andythenorth: i made a mistake, i increased the newgrf limit by 4
20:23:51 <andythenorth> that’s probably enough tbh
20:24:21 <ZirconiumX> Turns out the dedicated server I built has a server version of jgrpp-0.17.2-4, which is enough to not match jgrpp-0.17.2
20:24:25 <frosch123> it likely was enough before :p
20:24:35 <andythenorth> 64k is enough for everyone
20:24:57 <ZirconiumX> Does BaNaNaS even have 64k newgrfs?
20:25:00 <andythenorth> child #1 suggested a new disasters framework
20:25:23 <andythenorth> ‘factories should catch fire very rarely'
20:25:29 <andythenorth> ‘and a plane could crash into the factory'
20:25:39 <andythenorth> ‘orchads could set on fire'
20:25:51 <andythenorth> ‘then you could have a fire truck'
20:26:01 * ZirconiumX concludes the openttd fandom is full of pyromaniacs.
20:26:03 * andythenorth just leaves that there
20:26:12 <andythenorth> I’ve hidden the matches at home
20:27:08 <supermop_> and the apple trees too?
20:27:09 <frosch123> ZirconiumX: the master server knows about 4300 newgrfs, which are all newgrfs and their versions which have been active in some public game once
20:27:30 <ZirconiumX> So 64k newgrfs don't even *exist* yet.
20:27:50 <supermop_> or they exist but have not been released?
20:27:57 <planetmaker> it's like concluding "there are no pink elephants" - just because you haven't seen one
20:28:04 <frosch123> you can likely add a few thousands by starting a public server with every firs revision
20:28:25 <frosch123> more firs revisions than grfs in total?
20:29:33 <frosch123> only 130 firs versions known by the master server
20:33:41 <andythenorth> I think there’s a fair chance I might be able to get FIRS rev higher than ottd rev
20:33:43 <andythenorth> without even cheating
20:34:08 <frosch123> i am still confident you won't exhaust the md5sum check
20:34:43 <andythenorth> what’s the ottd rev currently? o_O
20:35:17 <andythenorth> @calc 27789 / 5348
20:35:17 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 5.19614809274
20:35:23 <frosch123> dorpsgek announces it every now and then
20:35:57 <andythenorth> ottd probably gets slightly more translation commits
20:36:04 <andythenorth> that’s not in my favour
20:40:50 <ZirconiumX> To be fair, OpenTTD has had something of a head start
20:41:09 <frosch123> in revision numbers?
20:41:13 <ZirconiumX> What's the average commits per day, actually?
20:41:19 <ZirconiumX> It's been around longer
20:41:33 <frosch123> possibly less than twice as long as firs
20:42:15 <andythenorth> FIRS is 2008 in concept
20:42:20 <andythenorth> repo might be 2009
20:42:29 <frosch123> yes, firs repo is 2009
20:43:02 <andythenorth> and yet FIRS still seems new to me :P
20:43:28 <ZirconiumX> @calc 27789 / (13*365)
20:43:28 <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX: 5.8564805058
20:44:04 <peter1138> Hmm, how does servers.openttd.org determine duplicates (ipv4/ipv6)?
20:44:06 <ZirconiumX> @calc (30000-27789)/5.86
20:44:06 <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX: 377.303754266
20:44:07 <frosch123> ZirconiumX: you should rather go by only last 24 months
20:44:25 <peter1138> Does it simply have more information than available to clients?
20:46:12 <ZirconiumX> frosch123: I don't know what the revision was this time two years ago.
20:46:20 <frosch123> peter1138: there seems to be some session key which ottd gets from the master
20:46:33 <frosch123> and which it then uses for advertising
20:47:31 <frosch123> ZirconiumX: 1.5 was branched in r27191
20:48:33 <ZirconiumX> @calc (27789-27191)/(365*2)
20:48:33 <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX: 0.819178082192
20:48:49 <frosch123> firs was at about r4100 at that time
20:48:49 <ZirconiumX> Conclusion: last two years have been very slow.
20:49:14 <frosch123> not you can extrapolate the intersection point
20:49:31 <frosch123> so that andy can tell his bank about his retirement plant
20:50:39 <andythenorth> don’t let the secret out
20:50:44 <andythenorth> everyone will want to copy it
20:53:49 <ZirconiumX> @calc 1248/(365*2)
20:53:49 <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX: 1.7095890411
20:55:00 <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX: 25214.6067416
20:55:20 <ZirconiumX> Retirement plans is pretty accurate
20:55:48 <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX: 69.0794520548
20:57:26 <ZirconiumX> I think the OpenTTD team won't have to worry about FIRS for a while.
20:59:08 <peter1138> Hmm, all these old patches. I'm not sure why I keep them.
20:59:28 <LordAro> peter1138: how else would you maintain your reputation?
20:59:36 <andythenorth> peter1138: “they’ll be useful one day”
20:59:44 <andythenorth> “they don’t make them like that any more"
20:59:50 <ZirconiumX> How badly does it break if you fast forward them?
20:59:50 <andythenorth> “that one has sentimental value"
21:00:02 <andythenorth> “I got that one as a bargain"
21:00:06 <ZirconiumX> Make a quilt with them
21:00:35 <andythenorth> ZirconiumX: 69 years before I surpass Openttd? o_O
21:00:40 * andythenorth likes a challenge
21:01:42 <frosch123> peter1138: i guess the actual question about the duplicate client list entries is: which one should it prefer?
21:02:10 <frosch123> has your ipv6 connection better latency than your ipv4 one?
21:02:50 <peter1138> In theory it doesn't matter.
21:03:20 <ZirconiumX> In theory, theory and practice align perfectly. In practice, they are nothing alike.
21:04:04 <peter1138> Hmm, bridges over stations...
21:04:37 <frosch123> i think the bits are still free
21:04:52 <frosch123> mhl moved them, so they may even be free for all tiletypes now
21:04:55 <peter1138> Yeah but who'd want it?
21:05:09 <peter1138> Especially not so close to a release :)
21:05:10 <frosch123> bridges over industries and such
21:05:29 <frosch123> well, the pillars look stupid anyway in the middle of a industry building
21:05:30 <ZirconiumX> Perfect time to get it in trunk then.
21:05:55 <frosch123> peter1138: request inclusion in a patch pack
21:06:12 <frosch123> though possibly cirdan has that
21:07:07 <ZirconiumX> Is that for the original code?
21:07:54 <ZirconiumX> Bridges over bridges over bridges
21:08:28 <peter1138> andythenorth, the patch included newgrf spec to set min height
21:08:33 <supermop_> bridges under tunnels
21:09:05 <andythenorth> peter1138: that assumes station author has done something ‘properly’? o_O
21:09:18 <andythenorth> tunnels under tunnels
21:09:24 <peter1138> not really, it just disallows it for any custom station unless it's specced
21:09:34 <andythenorth> how rare and clever
21:11:23 <peter1138> persistent action 6...
21:11:28 <peter1138> I wonder what that ever fixed...
21:12:07 <frosch123> action6 with "add". the worst invention ever
21:12:46 <frosch123> is there still that incremental-delta example in the specs?
21:13:17 <planetmaker> can't we simply remove action6? :P
21:13:22 <supermop_> andythenorth: nice cuban depot / emus in yesterday's pic
21:13:31 <frosch123> planetmaker: no, it's a core part of nml
21:13:38 <frosch123> we just do not use the "add" part
21:13:44 <frosch123> since that does not help anyone
21:14:07 <planetmaker> I guess I have to understand what you mean with 'add part'
21:14:08 <peter1138> I have no idea what any of that does...
21:14:22 <frosch123> peter1138: it was applied, or some revised version of it
21:16:21 <peter1138> applied in 2008. r14102.
21:16:58 <peter1138> Worth keeping the patch then.
21:17:55 <frosch123> planetmaker: do you have a non-dcf77 clock?
21:18:45 <planetmaker> non-dcf77... you mean w/o wifi receiver? Yes
21:18:48 <frosch123> next time you switch timezones, you should start a hand-written letter whether in which direction you started it last. never try to set your clock relative to a dcf one
21:19:16 <frosch123> s/started/adjusted/
21:19:24 <andythenorth> Wolf01: much space eh
21:20:04 <Wolf01> Yeah, we are aiming at the biggest stand next year :P
21:21:04 <frosch123> but i like the formatting
21:21:32 <michi_cc> So apparently only our CF has VS2010 left, I guess it will have to do as a compile test... :p
21:21:44 <andythenorth> dalestan is missed
21:21:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r27790 /trunk/projects (4 files) (2017-03-13 21:21:40 +0100 )
21:21:48 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6366]: [Win32] Mark OpenTTD as DPI-aware to avoid OS window scaling that breaks mouse input.
21:22:31 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> dalestan is missed <- +1, he was rude at the right point :D
21:23:07 <frosch123> michi_cc: i thought the farm uses 2012
21:24:33 <michi_cc> frosch123: We don't even have project files for 2012 :)
21:25:15 <planetmaker> ui, sounds like a most welcome commit @ michi
21:26:01 * andythenorth is just hoping for persistent action 6 in 1.7.x
21:26:24 <andythenorth> I have NFI what action 6 does
21:26:34 <andythenorth> but if it’s GRM, then I’m staying away :P
21:26:56 <frosch123> i kind of miss the commits with "-Feature: [NewGRF] Feature 0x08 property 0x20"
21:27:21 <andythenorth> oh is action 6 how ‘if’ works in nml? o_O
21:27:24 <peter1138> Is there much left unimplemented?
21:27:37 <andythenorth> station spec needs unimplemented
21:27:40 <michi_cc> andythenorth: I think that is Action 7 and 9.
21:27:44 <planetmaker> not really. Everything which makes sense is there
21:27:48 <andythenorth> it would be a service to all to delete station sped
21:28:12 <peter1138> i spent years on that
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21:28:50 <supermop_> what is necessary in patching nml to work with stations?
21:28:59 <andythenorth> agreeing a new spec :P
21:29:04 <andythenorth> and that takes 10 years or so
21:29:32 <andythenorth> that’s the hard part
21:29:47 <andythenorth> can I fund the rest on elance.com?
21:30:52 <peter1138> hehheh opengl blitter
21:31:23 <andythenorth> I think Hirundo works for me :P
21:31:35 <andythenorth> he writes in same style as someone I know
21:31:47 <peter1138> that looks more recent than mine
21:32:18 <frosch123> everyone must have been shocked about "new (map array)" vs. "(new map) array"
21:33:13 <michi_cc> frosch123: Anyway to get the exe from the Bamboo Testing target? I'd like to check if the DPI setting is actually present. Or do I have to wait until tomorrow?
21:33:43 <peter1138> michi_cc, does it actually work? (opengl)
21:33:49 <frosch123> michi_cc: yes, i think so
21:34:40 <michi_cc> peter1138: Yes, but I only implemented to platform specific code for windows. It's not an OpenGL *blitter* though, more like a video driver.
21:34:54 <peter1138> using opengl as a surface?
21:36:36 <michi_cc> Yeah, a 32bpp texture and an 8bpp texture, with shader code doing the palette animation. What's missing is an accompanying 40bpp blitter that doesn't do any palette stuff like our 32bpp blitter.
21:37:12 <michi_cc> Oh, and an accelerated mouse cursor :)
21:43:18 <frosch123> hmm, i found the binary, but no idea how to get it out of there
21:44:56 <frosch123> michi_cc: we can start a nightly now though
21:45:11 <frosch123> would take 30 minutes, if you still want it then
21:51:13 <michi_cc> frosch123: I started one. One more closed FS entry in 30 min hopefully.
21:55:08 <peter1138> heh, fs#6217 < this savegame crashes... erm, not any more it doesn't...
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21:59:20 <andythenorth> flyspray tends towards ‘wrong!’ quite often :)
21:59:38 <andythenorth> “can’t, won’t, or shouldn’t fix” should be options :P
22:00:09 <frosch123> i closed about 20 tasks on saturday with similar reason
22:00:25 <argoneus_> good evening train friends
22:00:29 <frosch123> though some were just forgotten to be closed after they were fixed :p
22:00:34 *** argoneus_ is now known as argoneus
22:00:46 <andythenorth> there were a bunch I commented on because they looked not useful
22:00:49 <andythenorth> but then I got bored :P
22:01:17 <andythenorth> “won’t fix” is the traditional passive aggressive wording in most bug trackers I’ve seen
22:01:19 <peter1138> FS#6032 - still crashes
22:01:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: you made the mistake to look at feature requests
22:01:46 <frosch123> you need to filter them out
22:01:50 <andythenorth> but maybe it should be more nuanced: ‘no repro’, ‘we lack the skills’, ‘demoralising’, ‘requires expensive hardware'
22:02:05 <peter1138> Same error as well, heh.
22:02:14 <andythenorth> ‘really nobody uses that platform any more, if ever’
22:02:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: there are like 20 reasons to close tasks :)
22:02:38 <frosch123> not reproducible, won't fix, not a bug, in known-bugs.txt, ...
22:02:47 <frosch123> plenty of reasons already exist
22:03:12 <peter1138> Crash at: Sun Jun 01 12:39:03 2014
22:03:19 <peter1138> Same line of code even, nice.
22:03:19 <andythenorth> frosch123: I don’t have rights to see the drop down for reasons :) Which is probably best all round :P
22:03:37 <peter1138> Yeah, we ought to have a bug-tidy-up group if possible.
22:03:51 <ZirconiumX> Most bugs would come under that
22:04:00 <peter1138> I can see how to create the group in flyspray but I guess assigning it to users is not simple with the funky login stuff we have.
22:04:09 <andythenorth> some bugs are fun ZirconiumX :)
22:04:15 <andythenorth> like hard to trigger ones
22:04:24 <andythenorth> or amusing obiwans
22:04:30 <supermop> more evangelizing for nrt by andythenorth in forums
22:04:54 <ZirconiumX> Are there any bugs in OpenTTD that the devs chose to keep in for amusement?
22:05:11 <peter1138> ZirconiumX, they're called features.
22:05:31 <peter1138> andythenorth, why can it be closed?
22:05:40 <andythenorth> peter1138: because it’s bollocks :)
22:06:01 <andythenorth> frosch123: lacks ‘demoralising’ :)
22:06:40 * andythenorth clicks the actual proper ‘request closure’ button
22:06:52 <peter1138> Is there a way to load a game paused?
22:07:10 <frosch123> i usually queue F1 while it is loading
22:08:28 <ZirconiumX> The screenshot glitching is a nice effect
22:08:37 <ZirconiumX> Like an old TV screen with bad signal
22:09:41 <ZirconiumX> Also the log says he's running on a 486!
22:12:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: is 6542 demoralising enough?
22:16:01 <peter1138> Ah "faster" without actually doing any profiling...
22:16:55 <frosch123> andythenorth: i gave you access to the event log
22:17:38 <frosch123> that level allows you to close your own tasks
22:18:19 <frosch123> depends on what fs means with "own"
22:18:22 <frosch123> created or assigned
22:18:42 <ZirconiumX> Can we close some tasks as out of date? I don't think we need to worry about bugs in 0.4.7.
22:18:59 <frosch123> ZirconiumX: that is a silly approach
22:19:13 <frosch123> if you want an empty list, just enable the filter
22:19:21 * andythenorth trying to figure out the UI :P
22:19:31 <peter1138> bug in trunk. which version is that? :D
22:19:38 <andythenorth> so I should be able to close that? ^^
22:19:46 <peter1138> andythenorth, it is closed.
22:19:47 <michi_cc> Okay, that was a failure. VS2010 happily eats the project file, but completely ignores the option. Guess I have to remember if I saved a VS2010 install ISO somewhere...
22:19:58 <peter1138> andythenorth, oh no, sorry, just requested.
22:21:22 <frosch123> andythenorth: there should be "close task" - "assign to me" - "edit this" task buttons
22:21:40 <frosch123> you could experiment with "assign to me" if "close" does not work
22:21:47 <frosch123> then we know what fs means with "own tasks"
22:23:10 <andythenorth> frosch123: only ‘assign to me’
22:23:25 <andythenorth> ok, that seems to work
22:23:54 <andythenorth> all tasks I opened are now closed :)
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22:24:46 <frosch123> don't dare open new ones?
22:25:30 <andythenorth> ha turns out I can close any now
22:25:32 <andythenorth> I’d better not eh
22:26:27 <frosch123> yeah, now we know what "own" means
22:26:42 <andythenorth> it’s a funny bug tracker, FS
22:26:46 <andythenorth> like trac, but without the charm
22:26:59 <andythenorth> but on the plus side, more colourful
22:32:40 <andythenorth> so tempting to close some of these
22:32:57 <frosch123> just ignore feature requests
22:33:08 <frosch123> their only purpose is to not spam the bugs
22:33:32 <andythenorth> I’l filter them out
22:34:06 <frosch123> i already checked the bugs in saturday, the rest is valid to some extend :)
22:34:09 <frosch123> i did not check patches
22:34:55 <andythenorth> patches seem unfair to close :)
22:35:08 <andythenorth> someone put work in, even if the idea is no net gain for the game
22:35:18 <frosch123> some are on the todo list :p
22:35:32 <frosch123> just noone was interested in fixing the whitespace
22:36:07 <andythenorth> what does high sea level actually do?
22:36:25 <frosch123> at that time it was for tunnel under sea
22:38:46 <andythenorth> interesting spot
22:39:57 <frosch123> is it the multi-key-press input method?
22:41:23 <andythenorth> is there any benefit to closing FS patch issues?
22:41:35 <andythenorth> other than pissing off someone who tried to contribute?
22:41:43 <andythenorth> and tidying the house?
22:41:58 <peter1138> i'm only going through bugs at the moment
22:42:05 <frosch123> it's ok, if it is implemented :)
22:42:46 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i get "invalid page request" when clicking on that last link?
22:43:02 <andythenorth> remove the trailing /
22:45:12 <andythenorth> we’re on 10.12, 10.6.8 is way dead
22:45:28 <peter1138> Does it crash on 10.12 though? :p
22:46:01 <andythenorth> hard to prove a negative eh
22:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but what about big endian apples?
22:46:44 <peter1138> 10.6 didn't support ppc
22:47:12 <peter1138> also it says 80486.
22:47:19 <peter1138> all the mac ones say 80486 hah
22:47:29 <andythenorth> oh endian-ness is from gulliver’s travels
22:47:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but that was egg-endianness?
22:48:06 <Zuu> andythenorth: You can logout/login to FS to get the smiley whenever you like to see it. :-)
22:49:50 <frosch> peter1138: indeed, the grey background is the ime selection
22:50:00 <frosch> so i guess the user pressed something to start that
22:50:13 <peter1138> i don't know how to do that :D
22:50:24 <frosch> though the cursor is at the end
22:50:32 <frosch> i thought they had some kind of relation
22:51:02 <frosch> peter1138: only osx and windows currently
22:51:09 <frosch> the rest is sdl2 or so :)
22:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause> if you say "sdl2" often enough, you summon someone who implements it?
22:52:56 <frosch> i can't decide whether to say "sdl2" or "harfbuzz" more often
22:54:26 <peter1138> yeah, didn't someone already work on sdl2?
22:54:53 <andythenorth> there’s a forum post :P
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22:55:45 <frosch> he only said that sdl2 was slower for simutrans
22:56:23 <planetmaker> lordaro did some sdl2 stuff once, didn't he?
22:56:45 <frosch> we definitely tried to shovel it onto him
22:56:48 <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r27791 /trunk/projects (3 files) (2017-03-13 22:56:38 +0100 )
22:56:49 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r27790) [FS#6366]: Try #2. Now also for Visual Studio 2010.
22:56:51 <frosch> but i cannot remember who started
22:56:53 <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r27792 trunk/.gitignore (2017-03-13 22:56:41 +0100 )
22:56:54 <DorpsGek> -Add: [Win32] .gitignore for IntelliSense database of VS2015 Update 2.
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22:57:35 <LordAro> planetmaker: i tried, but ultimately alberth finished the freerct sdl2 implementation
22:57:56 <frosch> oi, so albert has sdl2 experience :o
22:58:00 <andythenorth> so many OS X bugs
22:59:06 <andythenorth> also, they don’t happen to me, so eh
23:00:19 <andythenorth> most of them look like either random crashes, or requests to support very dead versions of OS X
23:00:42 <michi_cc> andythenorth: FS#6380 got applied (more or less), but I hoped to get some confirmation that is actually did something.
23:00:46 *** Ethereal_Whisper has quit IRC
23:00:46 <peter1138> Some of those bugs are so old they were not very dead versions (merely dead)
23:00:52 <andythenorth> wiki says OS X is supported, openttd page says not
23:00:59 <andythenorth> schrodinger’s support
23:02:03 <frosch> you can only get support if it works?
23:02:26 <andythenorth> michi_cc: I can’t test 6380, I have skipped over El Capitan to Sierra
23:03:18 <michi_cc> That would do it as well I guess. 6380 is about SDK changes, and I can't imagine Apple reverting these changes for Sierra.
23:03:35 <andythenorth> FWIW, I can build on Sierra
23:04:47 <Wolf01> -Add: [Win32] .gitignore for IntelliSense database of VS2015 Update 2. <- thank you michi_cc ;)
23:04:48 <andythenorth> I installed a handful of packages via brew, and can now use ../configure without any flags
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23:08:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v michi_cc
23:08:42 <andythenorth> forbidding 90 degree turns breaks ship routing
23:08:48 <andythenorth> player shouldn’t use that setting
23:09:11 <michi_cc> Wolf01: I only noticed because I used a different clone now. I added the files to .git/info/excludes in my regular work dir and apparently completely forgot about it :)
23:09:48 <Wolf01> I wanted to push it to NRT, but it wasn't the right place and then I totally forgot about that
23:11:08 <andythenorth> hmm, more OS X bugs with AI
23:11:14 <andythenorth> also crash on exit
23:11:19 <andythenorth> probably dupes of each other
23:11:26 * andythenorth should tidy those up
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23:16:50 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r27793 trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp (2017-03-13 23:16:44 +0100 )
23:16:51 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6450]: Use of uninitialised variable cause lzo to fail. Add check for error status.
23:17:00 * andythenorth closed one bug, it’s now 149
continue to next day ⏵
