IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-03-05
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00:07:47 <Samu> but no one really likes that
00:07:54 <Samu> not multiplayer friendly
00:08:11 <Samu> unless everyone starts exactly at the same time
00:08:13 <Wolf01> Inflation is only regarding prices and costs, it lacks taxes based on bank balance
00:08:58 <Samu> there's also infrastructure maintenance costs
00:09:00 <Wolf01> And even local authority rating imo
00:09:15 <Wolf01> Infrastructure maintenance is like running cost
00:09:32 <frosch123> not quite, infrastructure cost is quadratic
00:09:57 <frosch123> though it mostly punishes bad constructons
00:10:09 <frosch123> with too many signals, or generally too much track for too little vehicles
00:11:05 <frosch123> the most silly feature is airport noise though
00:11:13 <Wolf01> When you put >30% taxes, you will see how people will stop making money
00:11:33 <frosch123> i believe the original goal was to allow more than 2 airports per city, but usualy you ar enot allowed one
00:11:42 <Samu> inflation + infrastructure maintenance + freigth weight multiplier + forbid 90 degrees + steepness
00:12:03 <ST2> until someone create OpenTTD offshores and later similar to Panama papers appears xD
00:12:14 <Wolf01> Samu, practically my config
00:12:17 <Samu> and now + extra running costs
00:12:36 <Wolf01> And I still repay the loan with 12 trucks in 6 years
00:13:31 <Wolf01> What then, nerf trucks? You nerfed trains because too much superior to trucks, then now trucks are godly
00:14:16 <Dackus> Wolf01: Where do you see that?
00:14:49 <Samu> trucks got nerfed in one of my income formula adjustment patch, forgot exactly what
00:14:58 <Dackus> When you put >30% taxes, you will see how people will stop making money
00:15:05 <Dackus> The thing with infrastructure costs would be much better if the actaul costs per unit of infra were visible somewhere.
00:15:29 <Samu> patch was aiming to nerf horizontal / vertical income formula
00:15:40 <Wolf01> I don't think that a detailed costs panel will affect something
00:16:07 <Samu> aircraft got the major nerf in that patch
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00:16:47 <Wolf01> Taxes based on company value will evaporate a consistent slice of your earnings
00:18:06 <Dackus> Wolf01: The infrastructure units are already listed, adding the cost would be trivial and underline their importance.
00:18:23 <Wolf01> But it won't change the profit
00:18:36 <Dackus> It will. If the player reacts to the information.
00:18:41 <Dackus> Currently you don't know how much a tile of bridge costs vs a tile of staight track.
00:19:08 <Dackus> You would make more single-track lines and possibly less useless lines etc.
00:19:24 <Wolf01> So one will start to carpet the map with useless infrastructure just to reduce the balance by paying more maintenance?
00:19:37 <Dackus> Also, with some scripts, airports are _really_ expensive to run. It would be good if this was more clearly visible.
00:19:52 <Dackus> Huh, didn't understand you now.
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00:20:40 <Wolf01> I wouln't build recklessly just to keep low profit
00:20:59 <Wolf01> It's not the objective of running a company
00:21:33 <Wolf01> In fact, a company should reduce costs, and profit should be reduced by external costs
00:21:38 <Dakkus> Why would anybody try to keep low profit?
00:22:09 <Dakkus> I've never even thought somebody might want to do that. And I still can see no reason why they would.,
00:22:40 <Dakkus> I am a bit of a question mark at the moment.
00:22:45 <Wolf01> Then I don't understand you, the discussion is to limit company huge profits in endgame
00:23:12 <Dakkus> Ah, ok, didn't know that.
00:23:21 <Dakkus> Only saw so and so many lines on my screen.
00:23:32 <Wolf01> Eh, just arrive at the middle of the talk
00:23:44 <Dakkus> Indeed. The IRC thing.
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00:24:41 <Dakkus> My way of playing is such that huge profits aren't really relevant. 4k*4k map, very few cities, very few industry, xUSSR set, daylength patch.
00:24:57 <Dakkus> (well, actually the whole Reddit patch, not only the daylength)
00:25:16 <Dakkus> That way, it's about building an efficient network that is able to serve all the passengers.
00:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> on a 4kx4k map, how do you have ever NOT huge profit?
00:25:53 <Dakkus> A rather small frog-up will already anger almost all of my passengers, causing a lot of compensations being paid for late arrival.
00:26:33 <Dakkus> And then I end up paying for the transportation (besides the transportation costs, I'm also handing money to my passengers...)
00:27:19 <Dakkus> Creating a seriously efficient system of feeder lines to train stations, different train lines, some regional and some long distance and timetabling eveything perfectly. Thaẗ́s fun :)
00:28:53 <Dakkus> Hmm, time to go sleepingg... Already half past one and we were trying to get to sleep at latest at 22.
00:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that never works :p
01:17:20 <Wolf01> Ha! Just purchased train valley (2€) it's cool, and I think it's exploitable to make huge profits there too
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08:51:17 <Alberth> I am far from happy with makefile
08:51:35 <Alberth> considering rewrite to python
08:51:59 <Alberth> it's all a simple sequential set of steps any way
08:57:08 <andythenorth> Alberth: I have considered abandoning make before :)
08:57:13 <andythenorth> it would be one less dep
08:57:31 <andythenorth> but…I did some reading about people who have tried to replace make with python :P
08:57:53 <andythenorth> seems it only works if you absolutely know what you doing :)
08:57:54 <Alberth> in the general case? yes, don't gothere
08:58:43 <Alberth> but I don't want to solve the general case
08:58:48 <andythenorth> I am actually +1 to keeping make, we have gradually started using on it our work python projects
08:58:56 <andythenorth> as a wrapper to buildout, setuptools etc
08:59:13 <andythenorth> but they’re pretty simple makefiles
08:59:40 <Alberth> newgrf makefile isn't simple
09:00:14 <Alberth> it handles a lot of stuff with text, which is really not something you should do in a shell
09:00:59 <Alberth> likely it makes sense to keep a wrapper Makefile
09:01:53 <andythenorth> we use it, not so much for the powers of make, but because it reduces ‘this is weird python shit’ for new people
09:02:05 <Alberth> as a simple interface
09:02:05 <andythenorth> and it exposes current python devs to the idea of working in standard GNU ways
09:02:58 <Alberth> so perhaps a bunch of python scripts glued with make?
09:03:09 <andythenorth> it pretty much is that
09:03:28 <andythenorth> e.g. I can get the docs with python src/render_docs.py
09:03:42 <Alberth> could move all the text handling away from the shell etc
09:03:43 <andythenorth> the compile is modular, with a python script for each concern
09:04:22 <Alberth> don't know "all", but at least the complicated ones
09:04:56 <andythenorth> ah, src/build_iron_horse.py still exists
09:05:08 <andythenorth> and the makefile calls it
09:05:23 <andythenorth> so there is one entry point script handling the entire python compile
09:05:35 <Alberth> I didn't see any source file lists
09:05:43 <andythenorth> there’s nothing calculating deps
09:06:04 <andythenorth> I always wanted to eliminate the ‘build_iron_horse’, ‘build_road_hog’ etc scripts and move that into the makefile
09:06:15 <andythenorth> but eh, too complicated :)
09:06:40 <Alberth> though such scripts have a common pattern too, I guess
09:07:00 <andythenorth> FIRS doesn’t have a ‘build_firs.py’
09:07:14 <andythenorth> it is handled (correctly imho) by the makefile
09:14:47 <andythenorth> I don’t know how reliable the dep-checking is in the FIRS example
09:15:20 <andythenorth> it would almost be easier to just check src/*.py recursively
09:15:41 <andythenorth> maintaining dep lists will always slip my mind
09:16:03 <Alberth> firs has no dep checking, by the looks of it
09:17:18 <Alberth> nml target depends on $(GENERATE_PNML), which points to "nml:" two lines up, which has no deps
09:17:37 <Alberth> euhm "pnml:" two lines up
09:18:52 <andythenorth> ah yes, the Makefile is vanilla, doesn’t understand firs deps
09:20:24 <Alberth> I really fail to understand why you need 3 pieces of Makefile :p
09:21:17 <andythenorth> I could try and explain
09:21:22 <andythenorth> but that would require me to understand :)
09:21:44 <andythenorth> theory is that Makefile is vendored-in, never edit
09:22:02 <andythenorth> Makefile.config is of course, configuration against standard configuration points
09:22:14 <andythenorth> and Makefile.in is how you break the standard Makefile because it doesn’t do what’s needed :)
09:22:21 <andythenorth> Makefile.local I eliminated :P
09:23:03 <Alberth> for me, "*.in" is a template file for autotools :p
09:23:20 <Alberth> ie ./configure and friends
09:26:16 <andythenorth> for me it’s a template for python paste
09:26:43 <andythenorth> probably pm took that pattern from autotools :)
09:26:44 <Alberth> at least we agree on it being a template :p
09:27:41 <Alberth> with a twist in meaning, as autotools makes a full copy, while doing a few replacements
09:28:02 <andythenorth> that’s what paste does afaict
09:28:03 <Alberth> I have pondered adding a ./configure-like solution
09:28:30 <Alberth> but it doesn't have enough things to configure, I think
09:30:08 <andythenorth> even the location for ‘install’ target is standardised
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09:30:45 <andythenorth> and there’s nothing platform-specific or environment-specific in my code
09:33:07 <Alberth> :O CP_FLAGS ?= $(shell [ "$(OSTYPE)" = "Darwin" ] && echo "-rfX" || echo "-rf")
09:33:50 <Alberth> but indeed, hardly worth the effort
09:34:28 <Alberth> imho it's total bollocks to use a shell for text selection
09:35:20 <andythenorth> every problem is a nut
09:35:47 <andythenorth> oh nail, not nut
09:35:55 <andythenorth> mixing my sayings :P
09:35:57 <Alberth> I can see why ./configure uses m4 :)
09:36:49 <Alberth> ha, I know the phrase, didn't know it had a name as well :)
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09:41:23 <Alberth> yesterday frosch pointed out the newer way to assign version numbers to builds, do you want to switch to that?
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09:55:14 <andythenorth> I don’t actually find it useful
09:55:41 <andythenorth> it’s preferable to just have ‘revM’
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10:40:17 <andythenorth> Kerbal Train Programme
10:42:50 <Supercheese> also Kerbal zellepins
10:51:06 <andythenorth> monorail is really quite epic
10:52:35 <Supercheese> Indeed, he did an amazing job
10:57:56 <Supercheese> the fellow who did ... yes that
10:59:13 <Alberth> yes, but I fail to see "epic"
10:59:32 <andythenorth> nice music, nice pictures
10:59:38 <Alberth> long stretch of pipe, strap an engine to it
10:59:47 <andythenorth> also, when I tried KSP, I couldn’t get the rocket to stay assembled on a launch pad
10:59:59 <andythenorth> everything in KSP falls apart all the time :P
11:00:12 <Alberth> oh, ok, fair enough then :)
11:00:49 <Alberth> Kerbal Struts Program :p
11:01:50 <Alberth> maybe for v2: Boosted Kerbal Struts Program
11:05:19 <Supercheese> KSP 2: Electric Boosteloo
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11:30:16 <Samu> question, what does it take to implement a patch into vanilla openttd?
11:30:44 <Samu> is the aircraft type a good patch?
11:36:08 <Samu> isn't displaying aircraft type info a good idea?
11:39:09 <__ln__> what does it matter to the average player?
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11:40:36 <andythenorth> I find it annoying that I don’t know which planes are large and which are small
11:40:47 <andythenorth> maybe I should disable crashes :P
11:40:53 <andythenorth> or fork AV9 and make them all small :P
11:44:07 <Samu> helps them distinguish a small plane from a large plane
11:44:27 <Alberth> it would really help if you also note what to look at in your screen shots
11:44:44 <Alberth> now it's just a random shot that looks like vanilla openttd
11:45:00 <Alberth> I don't remember exactly what each window shows
11:45:08 <Samu> there's planes that look alike
11:45:08 <Alberth> so I can't see any difference
11:45:26 <Samu> oh, i wanted unadultered shots, but i see it would help
11:46:13 <Alberth> "unaltered" means "not changed", "adult" means "grown up", no idea what unadultered is :)
11:46:59 <Samu> sorry, portuguese got in the way lol
11:49:47 <Alberth> I can see the English side being broken, no idea what the Spanish side says :)
11:50:07 <Alberth> or apparently, Portugese
11:50:28 <Samu> unadulterated = not mixed or diluted with any different or extra elements; complete and absolute.
11:52:53 <Samu> there are planes that are small and large while they look alike
11:53:27 <Samu> also there's newgrfs that may actually display this information, but there was no sort by to group the all together
11:54:27 <Samu> group them* all together - typo
11:54:53 <Samu> also helpful when engine preview window comes up
11:55:21 <Samu> it will display it there too, helps for a better planning
11:57:59 <Samu> the placed I couldn't get it to sort by was on the company list of aircraft
11:58:26 <Samu> or aircrafts going into a station
11:58:36 <Samu> anything that is referring to company owned stuff
11:59:23 <Samu> it'd be helpful there too, but the sorters over there are englobing all vehicle types
12:00:04 <Samu> it would require an universal "Sort by Type" sorter, and i'm not sure how to go about that
12:00:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe you should patch the game so it tells you the expected runway length in the vehicle stats?
12:02:04 <Samu> i have a feeling Eddi|zuHause can't read what I'm typing
12:12:31 <Samu> Alberth: lhttp://imgur.com/a/no6xY - :o
12:13:15 <Samu> and im missing the engine preview offer window, not easy to have it trigger
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12:27:48 <Alberth> bit busy at the moment, I'll check the patch later
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13:00:59 <Alberth> looks ok, at first sight
13:01:40 <Alberth> adding the sort type should be done separately from adding to the display
13:02:06 <Alberth> and I don't like the very long string names
13:02:35 <Alberth> latter probably requires a rename operation on the strings
13:02:48 <Alberth> which then also affects all translations
13:03:39 <Alberth> if you go that way, renaming of the strings should be separate from adding new strings
13:05:06 <Alberth> you also checked how it looks if you do have a range on the aircraft?
13:09:17 <Samu> ah, wait, let me open it up
13:10:14 <Samu> "adding the sort type should be done separately" what does this mean
13:10:51 <Samu> which line is it? on the patch
13:13:32 <Alberth> your patch both adds display of the aircraft type, and the sorting on the type
13:13:46 <Alberth> in trunk one thing gets changed in one commit
13:14:04 <Alberth> so in trunk we have one commit for adding the display
13:14:19 <Alberth> and one commit for adding the new sort type
13:16:47 <Samu> about the very long string names... i'm not sure what i can do there
13:17:31 <Alberth> the current naming convention fails, so it needs new names in some way
13:17:51 <Samu> yes, but that is not my fault :(
13:18:30 <Alberth> things get extended a few times, and at some point you need to re-organize
13:19:18 <Alberth> changes in string names are not fun to do manually
13:19:48 <Alberth> you need some 'sed' wizardry to make it managable
13:20:05 <Alberth> so first split the patch, perhaps think of a better string name
13:20:17 <andythenorth> string fixing always looks like a python nail to me :P
13:20:42 <Alberth> nah, it's plain name substitution
13:21:29 <Alberth> sed -i -e 's/OLD_NAME/NEW_NAME/' src/lang/*.txt src/lang/unfinished/*.txt
13:21:42 <Alberth> and then a change in the source code
13:22:38 <Samu> i have to google what "sed" is
13:22:47 <Samu> so you prefer a string rename
13:23:16 <Alberth> you definitely need new strings
13:23:49 <Alberth> but old names and new names must use the same convention in naming
13:24:11 <Alberth> so if you change convention, all strings that use it, must change as well
13:24:51 <Alberth> so you add new strings with a new convention in the name
13:25:02 <Samu> ah, because of translations
13:25:04 <Alberth> then you must also rename all the remaining strings
13:25:33 <Alberth> yes, translators must find the new string to translate
13:25:57 <Alberth> and you rename to keep it clear that the set of strings belongs to each other
13:26:02 <Samu> patching strings in the translation files to adapt them into a new convention
13:27:06 <Alberth> that's what the 'sed' line does indeed, else all translators have to re-translate the exact same text, but with a different string name
13:28:50 <Samu> avoid giving work to translators, by re-using what they have already translated
13:29:16 <Samu> re-use what's done, adapt it to new convention
13:29:56 <Samu> i could try patching all languages manually, since I have no idea if there's a 'sed' equivalent on windows
13:31:59 <Alberth> just invent a better way to name the strings, 'sed' is going to be so awful much quicker and accurate, don't bother trying to do that manually, I can do it in a few minutes
13:33:04 <Alberth> Wolf01: it's possible in reality, I always wondered what would happen if you'd try that
13:43:10 <Wolf01> Mmmmh, I need to glue some polyethylene...
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13:46:13 <Samu> "you also checked how it looks if you do have a range on the aircraft?" yes
14:07:06 <Alberth> andythenorth: do you have a template fill program?
14:07:07 <Alberth> like "fill-template blah.template name=foo revision=r101 > blah.txt" or so?
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14:50:29 <supermop> more work to be done
14:50:55 <supermop> pylons too wide for bridges - even with the modern catenary
14:51:33 <supermop> but it seems that bridge truss gets drawn before front pylons
14:51:47 <supermop> so they will always stick out
14:52:11 <supermop> solution is to omit pylons on bridge deck
14:52:49 <supermop> but never know if a bridge will have tall sides or not
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14:54:06 <supermop> nuclear option: unspooled replaces all bridges with new ones that look better with pylons
14:55:59 <Wolf01> And what if we try to fix that in the code?
14:56:14 <Wolf01> How many things we'll break?
14:57:30 <eekee> why can't the graphic parts be made to fit together?
14:59:01 <Wolf01> Because one can use a roadset and a bridgeset from different authors which have different tastes
14:59:17 <Wolf01> Like pineapple on pizza
15:00:52 <supermop> eekee: my current, non-nuclear option is to try to revise graphics to look better with default bridges
15:01:46 <supermop> but as wolf said, there is no guarantee that will look good with all default bridges, let alone other bridges provided by other newgrfs
15:01:48 <eekee> makes sense -- so... the roads themselves have pylons which aren't separate pieces like street lamps or trees?
15:02:14 <supermop> the are separate, but they are always drawn
15:02:32 <supermop> you can have bridge pylons different from regular road
15:02:41 <supermop> but they are the same for all bridges
15:02:42 <eekee> there ought to be a way to disable drawing them on bridges, surely
15:03:19 <eekee> i'm having trouble imagining a bridge with pylons; never seen one irl :)
15:03:29 <supermop> I can disable they for all bridges, but that will look stupid on some bridges that do not have an overhead structure
15:03:44 <supermop> as then the wire will just float
15:04:45 <supermop> trams and trolleybuses
15:05:27 <supermop> if you imagine the tubular bridge - sure would look weird with pylons
15:05:48 <eekee> i always play with ctrl-8 -- hide the pylons & wires :)
15:06:34 <supermop> but imagine the cheap girder bridge with the arched grey trusses - would certainly need pylons
15:06:39 <eekee> i use a grf to make narrow pylons and i still find i have to hide them because they confuse my eyes
15:07:23 <supermop> eekee: fair enough but at some point you may want to tell whether a road can run a trolleybus or not
15:07:44 <eekee> i guess so. i've never used a trolleybus grf
15:09:07 <supermop> I actually started this grf to make the wires less bold - like this:
15:10:13 <supermop> where the wires are held by other wires, connected to poles at the far edge of the road
15:10:23 <supermop> (I used to live on that tram line)
15:10:57 <eekee> ah yes. i won't know until i try it if it'll be any good for my eyes
15:11:25 <supermop> I suceeded in making the wire overhead a bit less noticeable, but at the expense of adding many more poles, especially in curves
15:13:20 <eekee> it's the poles that bother me :)
15:13:58 <eekee> i think i could stand a pole every other square
15:15:17 <supermop> that will let you play with different road types, trolleybuses, and my roadtype grf which is a wip
15:15:29 <eekee> ugh, can't read today :)
15:16:53 <supermop> Wolf01: highways need to look fancier, or asphalt roads need to look worse?
15:17:41 <Wolf01> Usually highways have barriers here, the problem is that you can't simulate them having 2-3-4 lanes
15:18:02 <supermop> it's not a 'motorway' or interstate
15:18:26 <supermop> its more like a US route X Highway or britsh A-road
15:19:26 <supermop> or a US state highway
15:20:01 <supermop> divided motorways are beyond the scope of this set, because as you say there isn't really a way to make them yet
15:20:43 <supermop> maybe to non native English speakers highway always means 4-8 lane motorway
15:20:51 <eekee> if i was going to ask for more realistic roads, i'd first ask for a building scale change. i'm about 90% sure several of the default buildings were originally meant to be 2x2 :)
15:21:19 <supermop> but here and in England at least it can also mean the purpose built intercity roads in general
15:21:55 <supermop> eekee: scale had no real meaning in 1994 - just a couple of guys wanted to make a fun game
15:22:12 <supermop> and we've been trying to ruin it with realism ever since'
15:23:01 <supermop> a townset of nearly all 2x2 houses is fine, but default town road pattern would have a lot of trouble with it
15:23:08 <Wolf01> supermop, is it possible to put random stuff on sides? Like advertising poles popping out some now and then (not every tile)
15:23:36 <eekee> i've actually never tried non-default townsets
15:23:47 <supermop> not sure how available random bits are to roads
15:24:25 <supermop> did you ever get anywhere with your Cyprus trees lining your tuscan roads wolf?
15:25:01 <supermop> custom fences/trees/sidewalks per roadtype would solve a lot of my graphic wishes
15:25:20 <supermop> will frosch123 kill me?
15:25:47 <Wolf01> We are used to sycamores here, harder wood, cars crash better
15:26:11 <supermop> what are the tall pointy ones they use in Tuscany then?
15:26:49 <supermop> also surprised no one has ever made any italian town sets
15:27:53 <Wolf01> Maybe cypress ones, here we use them only for roads to graveyards
15:28:08 <Wolf01> I wanted to, shit at drawing
15:28:18 <supermop> that maybe a nice niche feature for nrt then
15:28:28 <Wolf01> Just look at my brickland baseset
15:28:43 <supermop> switch to detect if house with flag 'is graveyard' is nearby
15:30:28 <supermop> Wolf01: whats brickland?
15:31:00 <supermop> also i think I could never finish a townset because as an architect i'd never be able to move on to the 2nd sprite
15:33:03 <supermop> oh yeah that was cool
15:33:40 <supermop> better than my brio climate which got only one wagon and some track slopes drawn
15:36:12 <eekee> haha i'd have that trouble
15:36:22 <supermop> is 50kmh too fast for the crappy tramway?
15:36:38 <eekee> i never want to move on to my next game in openttd, i always want to keep polishing the old ones
15:39:46 <Alberth> watching trains is much more fun than building new networks :)
15:40:16 <supermop> Wolf01 I think 'hway', as I am defining it, should have guardrails or walls in town instead of sidewalks maybe? and then wide shoulders outside of town
15:40:58 <supermop> a switch to add guardrails whenever road has foundations would be nice for winding mountain routes
15:42:05 <Wolf01> HWAY in town should be like normal road, they must have guardrails on country, where ROAD should not have them
15:42:48 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27766 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:42:41 +0100 )
15:42:49 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Obiwan opposed translations for text id D3FF and DCFF in Action 13.
15:42:53 <supermop> was thinking asphalt should not have yellow stripes in town
15:43:02 <eekee> Alberth: yes :) i also like improving old lines better than planning new ones, up to a point
15:43:21 <supermop> its not 100% realistic, but not 100% unrealistic either
15:43:27 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27767 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:43:21 +0100 )
15:43:28 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Industries and houses should just use the default-case in Action 4.
15:44:05 <supermop> many suburban residential streets do not have them
15:44:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27768 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:44:15 +0100 )
15:44:22 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use if and IsInsideMM instead of switch-case sequences to test for consecutive values.
15:44:27 <supermop> but you also cannot drive 100kmph on those streets...
15:45:19 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27769 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:45:13 +0100 )
15:45:20 <DorpsGek> -Change: [NewGRF] Extend the DCxx range to D800-DFFF.
15:46:44 <andythenorth> Alberth: template fill is via chameleon
15:46:58 <andythenorth> but only inside the python part of the compile
15:47:09 <andythenorth> otherwise just %s or something
15:47:59 <eekee> all this talk about highways is confusing me. i've driven a lot in the south of england: sussex, hampshire, bit of kent and devon. A roads which aren't dual carriageways mostly don't have barriers except at junctions
15:48:52 <supermop> hmm need to split template so that bridge catenary is from a different png than regular wires
15:49:28 <eekee> also we didn't use the word 'highway' much. some brits did, but mostly it was one of those american tv show words
15:49:32 <supermop> eekee: ive diven on roads in cornwall where hedges were rubbing my little Peugeot on both sides
15:49:57 <supermop> granted that was not an A-road
15:50:23 <Samu> just made a standalone patch for sort by aircraft type Alberth, where do i put it? forum?
15:50:29 <eekee> oh i've driven roads that narrow in sussex, but i'm thinking of the a29
15:50:45 <Samu> the other request is gonna take more time
15:50:53 <eekee> it wasn't my favourite road
15:50:56 <supermop> along north coast of devon& cornwall
15:51:11 <supermop> was sure I was going to die
15:51:35 <eekee> i used to race along tiny sussex backroads. stupid really
15:51:47 <eekee> A27 was my favourite road though
15:52:00 <eekee> ... apart from arundel and worthing >.< lol
15:53:57 <supermop> I don't mind west country driving, but a29 has the traffic and speed of a motorway on what seems like a mountain access road
15:54:33 <supermop> was a bit much to do right after landing at Bristol from EWR without having slept at all
15:54:42 <eekee> it wasn't heavily trafficked when i drove it, but i can imagine some of the traffic from the a27 spilling onto it would make it pretty bad
15:55:15 <eekee> i mostly drove it at quiet times of the day, i think
15:55:25 <supermop> huge busses and lorries coming around those hairpins when i'm already re-acclimating myself to left side driving
15:55:55 <eekee> Wolf01: the a29 is 1.25 to 1.75 times as wide as that.. :)
15:56:21 <Wolf01> Copy the entire link, maybe your client cuts it on some symbol
15:56:26 <eekee> i thought the dover road (a21?) was worse for trucks
15:57:01 <eekee> or no... there are narrow parts of the a29
15:57:43 <supermop> Wolf01: asphalt rd would be nice if it could look like that outside of town
15:58:06 <Wolf01> You can check in which town zone you are
15:58:22 <supermop> I need to learn how to do that
15:58:34 <eekee> i'm thinking of making highways as 2 one-way roads
15:58:43 <eekee> dual carriageways, anyway
15:59:07 <supermop> eekee: that's how most players do it, but RVS wont drive in the 'fast' lane
15:59:34 <supermop> also the corners look pretty stupid
15:59:36 <eekee> not even to overtake like they do on regular roads?
16:00:00 <Wolf01> It would be cool also if roads could sense the proximity of other roads and slopes to provide different "sidewalk" types
16:00:04 <supermop> then can overtake, but you do not get the huge increase in capacity you'd expect
16:00:52 <supermop> Wolf01: yes! like in that tram pic I linked - if tramway is in the middle of two roads, maybe don't put sidewalks there
16:01:09 <eekee> it would help where i have hoverbusses & slow water trucks on the same route, i guess, but then i only use road for that where the land is insanely hilly. hmm!
16:01:50 <Wolf01> And when you build 2 highways adjacent you can make the middle ad a line of trees
16:01:50 <supermop> Wolf01: if guardrail is somehow part of foundation that would work well
16:02:33 <supermop> Wolf01: same for wide city boulevards
16:03:39 <eekee> that's the road the m25 wishes it could be: plenty of lanes for the traffic
16:03:48 <supermop> ok so how do I split the cat template so it gets the first 23 sprites from one png, and the last 6 from another?
16:16:10 <Samu> is notroadtypes able to define overtaking rules?
16:16:48 <Samu> you can overtake at this road
16:17:08 <Samu> but wouldn't it be interesting'
16:17:57 <Wolf01> That could be a flag, used by roadtpes, but how and when is not a task for roadtypes
16:21:56 <Samu> there are 56 lang files, ouch
16:23:28 <supermop> what about 'no junctions'
16:24:06 <Wolf01> I've got already burned by that
16:24:29 <supermop> thinking about gondolas and chairlifts
16:24:53 <Wolf01> The best solution was "forbid towns to connect to this roadtype"
16:25:32 <Wolf01> I'm also for point-to-point routes
16:25:55 <Samu> "new stringing convention" versus old convention + "append what's missing" at the end of the strings
16:26:17 <supermop> Wolf01 yeah a gondola is sort of like a pipe
16:26:34 <supermop> but for now it would be fun to fake it as a tram
16:27:03 <Wolf01> D=S=========S) <-turnaround (like trams), it should work
16:27:54 <supermop> have to trust people not building junctioned networks of gondolas
16:28:15 <supermop> maybe just define all the junction sprites to be a middle finger
16:31:24 <supermop> how do I make the bridge portion come from a different png?
16:31:57 <Wolf01> supermop, maybe if we insist, also andythenorth considered that
16:33:29 <Samu> find a string with the name "STR_BLA_BLA_BLA", copy the text "that's there already", then append " more text at the end" of "that's there already", to become "that's there already more text at the end"
16:34:58 <Samu> i suppose there is no sed for windows
16:35:02 <eekee> Samu: sed 's/STR_BLA_BLA_BLA.*that's there already/& more text at the end/
16:35:26 <Samu> can notepad++ do something like that?
16:35:45 <Wolf01> Samu, you have windows 10, then you have ubuntu subsystem
16:35:49 <eekee> probably with regexp search & replace
16:37:09 <eekee> most half-decent text editors have regexp search & replace
16:37:17 <eekee> might be called 'regex' without the p
16:40:23 <Samu> notepad does have this seach method, but... not sure how to use it
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16:43:07 <frosch123> i still have no good idea for how to allow industries to specify multiple station names :/
16:45:16 <Alberth> would be townname-ish, perhaps?
16:45:30 <Alberth> some parts as prefix, and some parts as suffix
16:45:50 <Alberth> or maybe only as suffix (of the town name)
16:46:38 <frosch123> question is whether industries are allowed to influence which name is picked
16:46:41 <frosch123> or whether it is pure random
16:46:59 <frosch123> in both cases the name should survive updating the grf
16:47:02 <Alberth> why would an industry want to influence the choice?
16:47:13 <Alberth> a steel mill is a steelmill, right?
16:47:24 <frosch123> depending on town size, height or whatever
16:48:00 <frosch123> like the default station names pick east/west/heights/forrest/...
16:48:20 <Alberth> I'd like to influence townname based on xy location (or percentage, perhaps)
16:48:27 <frosch123> we can store some index in the savegame, but we need a reliable way to again get a string for that
16:48:28 <planetmaker> don't we already have a choice list which industries can supply?
16:48:35 <planetmaker> or was it only one?
16:48:45 <frosch123> planetmaker: it's only one
16:49:06 <frosch123> i thought about adding *two* callbacks
16:49:35 <frosch123> first one gets an industry id, tile and everything and is queried with random bits to decide a station name
16:49:39 <Alberth> becomes horribly expensive perhaps
16:49:54 <planetmaker> I suggest that then the industry NewGRF may suggest names, maybe even an ordered preference list. But the name is then copied to the station - thus after the station is built, it doesn't query the NewGRF anymore
16:50:03 <frosch123> the second has no industry, and is only used to give the string based on the info stored in the savegame
16:50:26 <frosch123> it's similar to vehicle refitting with subtypes, except that vehicles cannot close while the stationame remains
16:53:51 <planetmaker> Hm... actually I really wonder whether we need really per-language names for stations. It seems awkward anyway
16:54:15 <planetmaker> IMHO it would be fine, if stationnames were chosen by the language setting of the player building the station
16:54:25 <Alberth> can't you point to a townname parts from the industry?
16:54:30 <planetmaker> it would also make it easier to communicate when talking about stations
16:54:53 <Alberth> industry can pick different parts id based on some preference
16:54:54 <planetmaker> and then you can just store the name once and for all and have no newgrf-change issue
16:55:02 <planetmaker> but ok... bike shedding :)
16:55:15 <frosch123> planetmaker: townnames are not stored as text in savegames
16:55:36 <frosch123> it's just that andy does not do townname grfs, and thus they do not change that often
16:55:43 <planetmaker> yes, I know... but they cannot be renamed by players
16:55:56 <frosch123> players can also rename towns
16:56:10 <Alberth> so you store the pointed-to townname parts, and the random bits
16:56:20 <frosch123> though there is a setting to disable renaming in multiplayer, because some people were annoyed by trolls
16:56:21 <planetmaker> well, then yes, the same mechanism as there
17:01:37 <eekee> once i saw a town and all its stations and my company renamed by an update to openttd, gannington -> ganton. english names, no grf
17:07:17 <Samu> oh, even visual studio got a regular expression search mode, woah, call me impressed
17:07:31 <frosch123> problem with townnames is that they are not translatablwe
17:07:35 <frosch123> which is terrible for singleplayer
17:08:44 <planetmaker> why is that horrible for SP? You mean MP?
17:09:14 <frosch123> if you have set everything to german, why should all stations near firs industries have english names?
17:10:25 <frosch123> you can pick a town name set of your liking
17:10:41 <frosch123> but adding a parameter to a industry set to control which language the station names use, is just weird
17:11:16 <eekee> do you mean, like, "dresden brickworks"?
17:11:59 <frosch123> klein kleckersdorf tanner road
17:12:24 <eekee> that would be firs which needs translating, wouldn't it?
17:12:54 <eekee> or am i misunderstanding what 'tanner road' is? :)
17:13:25 <frosch123> stations near firs mines are named "tanner road" when you use english
17:13:43 <frosch123> if station names would work like townnames, they would be fixed and not translateable
17:16:08 <eekee> now wondering what's wrong with firs :)
17:16:26 <frosch123> currently they are translated, which makes stations near mines named "Bergwerk" in german
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17:27:52 * andythenorth has only part-read the transcript :)
17:28:46 <frosch123> well, if noone once to influence which name is picked, i would just go for a purchase-list-style callback, that builds a list of up to 256 names or so
17:29:52 <frosch123> ottd would then save the index to that list in the savegame
17:30:11 <frosch123> and it's the grf's responsibility to only extend the list at the end
17:30:39 <Alberth> how is that different from selecting parts from a townname list?
17:31:01 <frosch123> the names would be translateable
17:31:48 <frosch123> and i do not see how one would compose station names from multiple parts
17:32:16 <frosch123> unless you go for Peter Watt Avenue
17:32:55 <frosch123> but that would not be industry specific anymore
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17:33:22 <frosch123> but rather for town-based stations
17:33:45 <frosch123> we could extent the townname spec to also provide station names, in the same language as the town names
17:34:04 <frosch123> that works for street names
17:34:59 <Alberth> combined multiple parts is also a lot harder to translate
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17:42:13 <fonsinchen> It seems there are multiple interesting forks of OpenTTD around these days. Maybe something should be done to counter the growing fragmentation.
17:45:46 <frosch123> i don't think anyone is interested in making the features work with each other
17:46:58 <fonsinchen> Yes, that's kind of a problem ...
17:47:10 <fonsinchen> I don't really see a solution either
17:47:28 <frosch123> i think it is fine as long as the add-ons (gs and newgrf) work with each of them
17:47:42 <Wolf01> I think I'll make my own NRT too, without OTTD
17:47:48 <frosch123> patchpacks are imho a good solution to provide more specialised features
17:48:11 <fonsinchen> Wolf01: What is "NRT"?
17:48:49 <frosch123> also, doesn't jgrpp include everything?
17:49:15 <fonsinchen> There are some performance improvements and bug fixes that could very well be applied to mainline ottd, though.
17:49:30 <frosch123> fonsinchen: fs#6540 is for you then :)
17:50:11 <frosch123> hmm, or is that older than cdist?
17:50:16 <frosch123> it looked like cdist at first
17:52:13 <fonsinchen> It is cdist, and a simple "forgot to initialize variable" problem AFAICS
17:56:52 <fonsinchen> Well, some of it. The _cargo_source_xy and _cargo_feeder_share stuff is older but the same problem
18:06:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r27770 trunk/src/saveload/station_sl.cpp (2017-03-05 18:06:14 +0100 )
18:06:22 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6540]: Initialize variables in station_sl.cpp (JGR)
18:09:23 <eekee> every time i open a train window, it's pinned. is this intentional, or is it a bug from running on a 5 year old linux system?
18:10:51 <frosch123> eekee: ctrl-click the pin icon saves the pin-state for the next time
18:11:02 <frosch123> so unpin it, and then ctrl-click the pin
18:13:35 <eekee> thanks, i discovered that & forgot it
18:17:17 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: I wondered about the forks
18:17:26 <andythenorth> multiple viable forks is a good thing I think :)
18:17:51 <SpComb> looking at what JGR is doing, it does start to kind of look like a viable fork
18:18:12 <SpComb> dunno how long most PPs tend to live for
18:19:05 <andythenorth> most seem to die, often the maintainer probably just can’t keep up
18:19:11 <andythenorth> things I wondered….
18:19:12 <frosch123> SpComb: jgr is around for long enough, and is likely past graduation, so it is unlikely that he would stop any time
18:19:44 <andythenorth> - encourage them to use the ottd build infrastructure? it was easy for TB to add NRT to it. OTOH, multiple people maintaining build farms might be not bad either
18:20:04 <andythenorth> - encourage them to use github or something where we can see their repo publicly?
18:20:22 <frosch123> the latter is the case :)
18:21:54 <Samu> i don't know how to use visual studio regular expression
18:22:23 <Samu> what do i put in replace
18:22:42 <frosch123> other pp died precisely the moment they got a compile farm :p
18:23:37 <SpComb> although, maybe the true qualifier for a fork would be a patchpack with multiple maintainers
18:24:09 <andythenorth> so what are the current forks?
18:24:19 <SpComb> I think PPs die when their maintainers lose interest and stop playing the game themselves
18:24:20 <andythenorth> JGR, Cirdan, NRT, Luukland (ahem)
18:24:53 <frosch123> i have no idea whether reddit and btpro share their client
18:24:54 <andythenorth> OpenTTD Spring PP 2013 seems to be active
18:25:28 <eekee> Samu: . matches any 1 character, usualy not including newline. . * matches zero or more or the preceeding thing, so .* matches any number of characters. there are other special characters which you can escape with \ for a literal match. you'd best see visual studio's documentation, because different programs have different regexps
18:25:36 <frosch123> i would think that all single-player-focused pp are superceeded by jgrpp
18:26:15 <Samu> Find what: ^STR_ENGINE_PREVIEW_COST_MAX_SPEED_CAPACITY_CAPACITY_RUNCOST.*
18:26:27 <Samu> Replace with: i have no idea
18:26:49 <Samu> i want it to take what's already there, then add more stuff at the end
18:27:13 <andythenorth> my other ‘I wonder’ is same as fonsinchen’s - are PPs testing any useful patches that would be valid for trunk
18:27:29 <eekee> Samu: & in replace *probably* stands for what was matched
18:27:30 <Alberth> just ignore the too long string names, Samu
18:28:12 <andythenorth> Alberth: I was afk most of afternoon, did the template answer help? o_O
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18:29:00 <Alberth> thanks, I missed that, highlighting is broken
18:30:02 <Samu> Replace with: &{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
18:31:29 <Samu> Alberth: im still learning
18:31:37 <Samu> then i'll do it the other way
18:32:25 <Samu> {}Aircraft Type: {STRING} was placed at the start of the line, i wanted it at the end of it
18:32:45 <andythenorth> Alberth: neat :)
18:32:48 <Alberth> which mostly is missing a template expander
18:32:49 <andythenorth> portable, reusable
18:33:05 <Alberth> that's my hope somewhat :)
18:33:09 <andythenorth> is there some off-the-shelf template expander we can use?
18:33:13 <andythenorth> chameleon is all wrong for this :P
18:33:40 <andythenorth> is something doing %s out of the question? I find it hard to read, but it seems widely used
18:34:14 <Alberth> I have some code for it, but that it's for a larger scale, I'd need to downsize it
18:34:26 <Alberth> may be useful anyway to extend my solution with that
18:34:38 <Alberth> otherwise something string template-ish?
18:34:52 <Alberth> didn't look at that at all, no idea what it does
18:35:23 <Alberth> %s is hard to use if you replace 2 elements in a file :)
18:35:36 <Alberth> you can't tell which replacement goes where :)
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18:35:51 <Alberth> but something unique like %blah% is simple enough
18:36:02 <Samu> replace with: &'{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
18:36:44 <Alberth> you're not trying to extend the text of the string, are you?
18:37:08 <Alberth> unless you write 40 different languages fluently, of course
18:39:00 <andythenorth> bash templating?
18:40:18 <andythenorth> or python standard lib Template, but it seems a bit Fisher Price :P
18:41:06 <Alberth> my idea is still make a sequence of key=value pairs at the command-line, and a filename for the template
18:41:30 <Alberth> then replace %key% by the value, for each pair in the text of the template
18:41:40 <Alberth> write the result out to an output file
18:41:47 <frosch123> isn't "deflating" the uncompressing part of zip?
18:41:57 <Samu> don't know how to use this grr
18:42:33 <Samu> inflate is decompressing
18:42:53 <frosch123> what is the difference between "bin/find-files -e bla" and "find . -name '*.bla'"? or do you want to create your own mingw?
18:44:16 <Alberth> bin/find-files takes more directories, but otherwise, I agree very little different from regular find
18:44:18 <frosch123> from the help message it read like zip
18:44:30 <Alberth> zipfile module is zip
18:45:36 <frosch123> i thought zlib was about gzip
18:45:48 <Alberth> no, zlib is much older
18:46:06 <frosch123> oh, compress/decompress
18:48:57 <Alberth> find just have a much more weird syntax
18:49:10 <Alberth> as it can do more than just finding files by name
18:49:18 <frosch123> yep, it is ancient :)
18:50:09 <Alberth> it's quite powerful, find files by modification date, size, access rights, etc
18:51:34 <frosch123> i have used it for log rotation :)
18:52:01 <eekee> i use find -type f; regular files only
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19:11:34 <andythenorth> frosch123: got an answer for industry names yet? o_O
19:11:44 <andythenorth> industry [station] names
19:13:06 <frosch123> the answer so far is that newgrf do not need any influence on which name is picked
19:13:33 <frosch123> and would just provide a list choices, which ottd picks randomly from
19:14:32 * andythenorth is not the set of all industry authors….but…
19:14:50 <andythenorth> station names feature is probably the least interesting of industry properties
19:15:04 <andythenorth> it’s kind of nice, and there’s an obligation to use it because it’s there
19:15:10 <andythenorth> but really it adds almost nothing :P
19:15:49 <andythenorth> someone else can make some FIRS commits in future then :D
19:19:05 <supermop> still no idea how to get this template to work
19:27:46 <supermop> is it possible? to pull catenary sprites from two pngs?
19:28:14 <frosch123> yes, just split your template in the middle
19:29:11 <frosch123> or do you mean to draw multipe sprites on the same tile?
19:35:29 <Samu> eekee: find what: (^STR_ENGINE_PREVIEW_COST_MAX_SPEED_CAPACITY_CAPACITY_RUNCOST)(.*)(\b)
19:35:47 <Samu> eekee: replace with: $1$2{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
19:36:26 <Samu> end of line character was difficult to deal with
19:38:57 <supermop> but i'm not sure how to say that tmpl_wire_bridge will use a different png file
19:39:38 <andythenorth> 59 uses of #define left in FIRS
19:44:34 <Samu> i think $1$2{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}$3 is better
19:49:15 <Samu> must find end of line differences, grrr
19:53:29 <supermop> frosch123: would it be possible to test whether tram tile has road, or vis versa?
19:54:16 <planetmaker> frosch123, supermob: you can also create one template with two filenames as parameter
19:54:46 <frosch123> supermop: we added that to the todo list the other day
19:55:07 <supermop> I haven't compiled to test yet bc i'm also trying to add a town zone switch at the moment
19:57:17 <Samu> ah, it works fine either way
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20:23:12 <andythenorth> child #1 wants a ‘industry catches fire’ disaster
20:23:17 <andythenorth> which requires a fire plane
20:23:33 <andythenorth> he also, left unsupervised, built 2 tile wide canals, ‘so the boats fit'
20:23:55 <supermop> what are canal costs set at?
20:27:00 <planetmaker> how old is child #1? :)
20:27:09 <planetmaker> must be not so new anymore, is he?
20:28:43 <Alberth> boats fitting in the canal are highly important
20:48:11 <Wolf01> We should let kids play and implement their suggestions, the games will be really more fun
20:49:14 <Wolf01> If a kid says "wtf, it shouldn't work this way", it really shouldn't work this way, kids always tell the truth
20:49:51 <Wolf01> If a kid tells you that you have an ugly ass, you have an ugly ass :D
20:50:32 <Samu> (^STR_ENGINE_PREVIEW_COST_MAX_SPEED_CAPACITY_CAPACITY_RUNCOST)( )(.*)(\b)
20:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it's either that, or someone else told them you have an ugly ass, and they're just repeating what they were told.
20:51:38 <Wolf01> So andy's kid is biased?
20:51:57 <Wolf01> "tell'em you want double canals so ships fit"
20:52:36 <Samu> (^STR_ENGINE_PREVIEW_COST_MAX_SPEED_CAPACITY_CAPACITY_RUNCOST)( )(.*)(\b)
20:52:49 <supermop> add age verification to suggestions forum so only users under 10 can post
20:53:13 <Samu> $1_TYPE$3{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
20:53:34 <Samu> i can rename strings like a pro now, lol
20:55:13 <Samu> Find all "(^STR_ENGINE_PREVIEW_COST_MAX_SPEED_CAPACITY_CAPACITY_RUNCOST)( )(.*)(\b)", Regular expressions, Subfolders, Find Results 1, Entire Solution, ""
20:55:46 <Samu> Matching lines: 56 Matching files: 56 Total files searched: 1053
20:55:54 <Samu> there's 56 language files
20:56:45 <frosch123> supermop: physical or mental age?
20:57:21 <Samu> oh yesh, visual studio just opened 56 files... just so that I can "undo"
21:00:21 <supermop> I'm going to break convention and make tram tracks more brown
21:00:49 <supermop> otherwise they need to be too bright to show up on roads
21:02:17 <Samu> it's building... woah, i'm impressed
21:15:34 <supermop> brown doesnt work - too many years of seeing rails as grey
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21:19:20 <Samu> there are 2 language files that do not have some strings, is that intended?
21:19:43 <Samu> the ones about aircraft range weren't found
21:20:46 <Samu> let me find this better, wanna make sure
21:23:09 <Samu> darn ship string getting in the way
21:23:14 <supermop> gonna add a few rust flecks in the shadows
21:26:23 <Samu> looks like it's intended?
21:26:32 <Samu> there's actually 64 language files
21:27:19 <Samu> 2 of these 56 don't have strings for displaying aircraft range in the preview window, it seems
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21:35:22 <Samu> nevermind, i'm dumb, false alarm
21:36:00 <Samu> it was esperanto and arabic egypt
21:36:59 <Samu> the reason they were missing was because untraslated strings aren't even copied into the lang files
21:40:46 <Alberth> yep, anything missing from a translation is not translated
21:41:40 <Alberth> I think the strgen program handles copying, but not sure
21:49:03 <supermop> gravel needs to be a bit darker I Wolf01, no?
21:51:59 <Wolf01> There are different colors of gravel roads, and most of them depends on usage
21:54:44 <supermop> struglling to get tramway to show up clearly on gravel
22:01:01 <Wolf01> And if you forbid building tramway over gravel?
22:01:23 <Wolf01> (not yet available at this stage, but just consider it)
22:01:41 <supermop> that would be fine, if possible, but it might be nice to have around quarries and mines
22:03:00 <supermop> so if I have a town zone based switch.. how does that work?
22:05:51 <frosch123> switch(FEAT_ROADTYPES, SELF, town_zone) { 4: center_sprites; 3: inner_sprites; 2:outer_sprites; 1:outskirt_sprites: default: faraway_sprites }
22:05:59 <supermop> there are 5 zones? and 5 is the most center?
22:06:38 <supermop> so 0 is like no town zone
22:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> town zones work like this: small towns (inner) 2-1-0 (outer), large towns: (inner) 5-4-3-1-0 (outer)
22:10:43 <supermop> so I wonder what the easiest way to use this to good effect in the grf is
22:11:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so for large towns there is no 2, but it's split into 3+4+5
22:11:39 <supermop> perhaps some way to differentiate asphalt and hway?
22:11:50 <frosch123> supermop: 4 should be some kind of pedestrian zone
22:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i've heard lots of talk about a town zone 5
22:12:16 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause pedestrian zone on the highway might get messy
22:12:23 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: look at HouseZonesBits
22:12:33 <frosch123> the rest is about counting from 0 or from 1
22:13:01 <frosch123> supermop: in that case, noise barriers
22:13:10 <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately, i cannot investigate this right now
22:13:47 <supermop> hmm where to steal some good gpl barriers
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22:18:52 <supermop> will have to just be pink lines for now, want to test
22:19:25 <supermop> don't want to draw right now, just spent an hour trying to make tram tracks slightly brown
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22:21:37 <supermop> in a regular small town, are there any houses in zone 0?
22:22:38 <supermop> I find in big cities, too much of the town area is the densest zone
22:23:28 <supermop> the radius of the center is huge compared to the thickness of the belts of outer zones
22:23:32 <frosch123> zone 0 is still in the town
22:23:48 <frosch123> outside of town would be zone -1, but that does not exist, and is treated like zone 0
22:24:14 <supermop> for example, the zone with trees ends up looking like an expanding thin circle
22:25:24 <supermop> I guess I am wondering, is there a zone without sidewalks that is still distinct from countryside
22:27:10 <frosch123> no idea, i do not play pax games, so i am not that familar with how towns actually look like
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23:04:46 <supermop> hmm I wonder what will happen if I draw a curved guard rail for a highway curve, and then tram on that tile goes straight
23:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <supermop> I guess I am wondering, is there a zone without sidewalks that is still distinct from countryside <-- no, anything that would apply sidewalks to areas not currently covered with sidewalks will add sidewalks to the whole map
23:07:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <supermop> hmm I wonder what will happen if I draw a curved guard rail for a highway curve, and then tram on that tile goes straight <-- it will look weird
23:07:32 <supermop> trams will drive through the rail
23:07:41 <supermop> same with noise barriers
23:07:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but straight tram on curved road already looks a bit weird anyway
23:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i would just forbid trams on highway roads
23:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but that flag might not be part of the first implementation
23:08:30 <supermop> i could wait until either forbidding tramway on roadtype, or custom fences is supported
23:11:29 <supermop> so for now need a different way to differential regular asphalt and highway
23:12:10 <supermop> currently hway has shoulder and aspt has curb
23:12:25 <supermop> aspt also has crosswalk at intersection
23:17:29 <supermop> 100kph is also a bit fast for an asphalt town road
23:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> 80 is max in town areas, usually
23:23:52 <Eddi|zuHause> 70 if there are traffic lights
23:24:14 <supermop> yeah. I nudged it down to 80 to make HWAY more special, but now I need to add a faster trolleybus waytype, maybe bus guideway
23:24:55 <supermop> not sure if trolleybuses ever go that fast
23:25:23 <supermop> but in game seems like you'd need them to, to keep up with model progression
23:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a "duobus" system where the busses go part of their way on guiderails
23:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the intention was that they go on guiderails with trolley wire, on normal roads with trolley wire and on normal roads without trolley wire
23:27:34 <supermop> does my switch need to go right where the roadtype block is in my code? or does it go by the graphics?
23:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> switches usually go near the graphics
23:28:00 <supermop> going to ready nml specs
23:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you want to keep the distance between the switch and the graphics block which uses it small
23:28:53 <Eddi|zuHause> to not block too many switch IDs
23:38:52 <supermop> how does my roadtype block as to use that switch?
23:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause> your switch misses an identifier
23:47:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and you put that identifier in the graphics block
23:47:21 <supermop> can the id be anything i want?
23:47:41 <Eddi|zuHause> so long as it follows the usual rules for identifier
23:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so only letters, numbers and underscore (_) and first character cannot be a number
23:49:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and, of course, it must be unique
23:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> (within the whole nml file)
23:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> (and not be a reserverd word, like "switch")
23:50:46 <supermop> I just wrote "asphalt_switch"
continue to next day ⏵
